The Gang Boss Who Went Insane - Justin Rollins Confessions

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0:33and boom we're on and today's guest we've got justin rowlands justin how are we i'm good thanks james thank you for having me thanks for coming on the show we'll plug your book straight away the lost boys the dark side of kind of gangs age just 14 and using the name sevens the author went from being bullied child to a leader of the warriors a group of london street kids involved of convicty tagging and other crimes The Lost Boys tells the story of Justin Rowland's descent into a form of madness in which self-destruction anger, fear lie at the core not before has a book been taken the reader so far inside the minds of troubled youths like it's a hard hitting account and interest concerned of youth offending gang culture mental health issues it is also vivid portray of the tensions inherent of the creative but unlawful art of graffiti writing like you say you've had your battles you've had your struggles mental battles anger frustration gangs graffiti gangs you've overcome a lot of that you're doing a lot of talks in schools and prisons about your own fuck-ups and how people can make the changes to become better and you don't have to live in that kind of society that you've created for yourself but how are you brother i'm good mate i feel like i'm the best i've been um through working a lot on myself and still working on myself now and yeah it's always a work in progress where can people buy your book so you can buy my book from amazon it's probably not on the shelves in waterstones anymore so it's been out since 2011 um amazon my publisher's website waterside press or you can probably order it well you can order it through waterstones before we get into all the madness so i always like to go back to the start with my guests get more of a bit of understanding about you where you grew up and how it all began so I grew up in the mid 80s in the London borough Sutton into a white working class family so my dad mixed Sri Lankan and Burmese my mum mixed Anglo-Indian and English but my dad left my stepdad came in white British my mum even though she was mixed Anglo-Indian and English I always saw as a white lady my nan her mum white all the cousins why aunt is that um yeah so me and my sister were the only two brown kids in a large white working class family on um the Ben Hill state in in a London borough of Sutton.

3:05How were you treated? So um well one of my first memories like a traumatic memory which I think had a significant effect on on me as a child and possibly my behavior later on in life is I was at my stepdad's mum's house they owned a large Doberman dog um Dobermans back then like the Rottweiler had a bit of a bad rep a bit like they give pits and XL bullies today and my mum and stepdad are drinking friends around I'm left in the garden alone I'm the only child in the house about three years old and I go over to the dog that's got my ball nobody's around and the dog just grabs me around the side of the head so I still got his bottom jaw scar on the temple top jaw across my head and then his tooth mark there So the dogs drag me around the garden until parents hear the screams, come out, wrap a towel around my head, I'm rushed to hospital.

4:15No tests are done on my brain for a brain traumatic injury. But after that incident, my head was stitched up. And when I was going to sleep as a toddler, I would smash my head on the pillow to go to sleep. And as I was coming around again, when the light's coming through the window in the morning and I'm waking up, I'd bang my head again until I'm awake. And that's called rhythmic movement disorder. Rhythmic movement disorder is a child sleeping disorder that can come from a head injury. and why i think that's quite significant in how what was to come in my the madness in my teenage years um is that boys that suffer head injuries um can go on to have like adhd autism or be extremely violent in their um teens or early 20s and that yeah that was what was to come what were you like at school so early school i was um yeah i i was troubled from from very young so say from about the ages of five years old my mom and my stepdad they wanted to move off of this estate so we're saving up for a mortgage so i was left in the care of a child minors on the other side of the estate who would take me to school.

5:34Um, and one day I'm in her living room. She's not around. I'm with another boy though. And, um, probably around the same age. And then I hear footsteps coming down and her teenage son appeared and he went up to the boy that was the other kid in the care. And he went up to him and he had something in his hand. I now know it to be fishing wire. And he started strangling this boy with a fishing wire and then I must have been absolutely, I can only imagine feeling absolutely petrified. Like what's going on? What do you think as a five-year-old boy? Like, is it going to happen to me? Came over to me, started strangling me with a fishing wire and I'm obviously choking, I'm crying, sweating in fear and he's going back and forth and I'm crying.

6:22The other boy is not crying, which always stood out to me and made me feel weaker. and then the child minder reappears her son disappears and we said what's happened and I'm told to stop being a wuss and I must have been hoping or praying that my mum comes back from work to take me out of that care and my mum come must be in the evening early evening took me away but I was put back into that care the very next day and I think that's where my behaviour started to change so in school such a young age five years old I got a pair of scissors and I just hit struck another kid on the lip with the scissors and his mouth was bleeding I was taken out of class taken to it must have been a teacher's office had these teachers there and they're like interrogating me about home life but I remember having my head down being really like this little boy in this sort of head down position and I couldn't speak I couldn't understand what I'd done like how do you understand that at five years old but I stayed in that position as my offending behavior started spiraling more out of control and I was ending in front of the youth offending team and the police for the first time and the courts and going through the system yeah so school was early school life was was difficult yeah yeah did you struggle through it um could you understand anything back then you still struggle yeah I say he's never been as a kid but did you understand it was something maybe different especially with the traumas that you had been through did you understand it or were you just thinking it was normal well school was school for me i didn't understand about sensory issues and that then back then i don't think you know the schools there wasn't a deeper awareness but i found it very difficult to be in class concentrate and the noises of other kids clattering of chairs if it was it felt like chaos to me and I just wanted to um I just wanted to run um that was my in that was infant that would have been infant school we moved away from the Ben Hill estate my mum and my stepdad got a um a house and um and um my destructive behavior and the chaos or the the building chaos started to started to unfold.

8:41So opposite my house, there was a bus stop. It was a 393 bus. And I would look out of my window and I would see the bus driver get off the bus. The bus was, the bus terminated there. Get off the bus, it'd smoke a cigarette or go to the BET phone box. There weren't mobiles back then. I remember looking out and then one day getting my toy cars and waiting behind the bus stop. Bus driver gets off, my heart's racing. He does whatever he's doing, makes a phone call, gets back on, he starts the engine. My heart's absolutely racing. I stick the toy cars under the bus wheel and he drives off and crushes them.

9:21Now seeing or retrieving my toy cars that were crushed, it gave me a sense of like adrenaline and power. And that was, yeah, that was like my developing destructive behavior. so other things I'll do there was a lot of derelict buildings in London back then um I would be going to derelict buildings setting fires smashing windows and and sort of I won't say hanging out with the bad kids because something's obviously going wrong at home but just hanging out with the kids that were like more into like destructive stuff than than school or any hobbies and that what was it like when you started hanging around with those kids did you feel part of something?

9:59I think I was a bit too young to feel part of something then because I was only about probably nine or ten years old maybe. But what I realized was some of these kids come from tougher homes and when you're wandering these local alleys you know you're sort of in danger. So one day walking down this local alley just wandering and this I see this kid he's like climbing in a tree there's a group of them and he jumps down and straight away chest is going like I know something's going to happen and he comes up to me I'm about nine years old he says what are you looking at you packy and he goes bang and he punches me in the nose nose is pouring with blood I run back home crying saying to my mum she said what's happened nose bleeding patches me up I said and then but I said what's this kid's called me a packy what's a packy and she told me for the first time that I was like mixed white and Asian and I remember feeling like this deep shame or this deep awareness that I was different to my family and my family were white and my community was white and my school friends and every and and this this shame and embarrassment came over me where um where I started I started to get racially bullied pretty badly and um realized I was in quite a tough area racist like I say a race area tough area there's a lot of racism where Asian shopkeepers are like beaten up you were seen as a as bad as it sounds you're seen as like Asian people were seen as weak packies and there was stuff like NF combat 18 sprayed on the walls there was a big Chelsea headhunter following around that area and I started to get racially bullied badly where I'd go to school with um this group of kids and a new child mind and a child mindless friend.

11:49One summer I'm out, I'm on the green, bear in mind I'm only nine years old and then it's a hot day, start having a fight with this other kid. Two little boys rolling around in the dirt trying to punch each other and his mum's on the balcony shouting, kick the pack he's head in. Now this lady, you know, when we're going back to school, she's taking me to school and these boys are not speaking to me. And that really, really made me, which I believe is significant for when deep down the line, when I have a mental crisis or, and I'm paranoid out of my brain in prison, I think that it's all linked to memories of being that little kid, not feeling safe.

12:35These people are taking me to school. The boys are refusing to speak to me. But I remember the older brother, the racial bullying continued and the older brother, one day I'm trying to hang around and this is being like a pleaser still trying to hang around with these um these kids that um you're like basically bullying me um and they were telling me hot summer's day my mum's at work must have been hungry and they're telling me oh there's this there's this tree down the road with this um this little old lady's got this apple tree with the juiciest apples and then like they're like yeah if you go down there she'll let you have one yeah um anyway so i go wandering off down the alley looking for one come back there's no apple tree I know that they must be playing trick I get back to them they're laughing in hysterics calling me apple and apple stood for all packies please leave England right this coincided with one day there's a knock on the door and I'm up in my bedroom and I can hear an Asian couple downstairs and it happens to be my my nan and my granddad from my dad's side now straight away I'm on alert thinking oh my god my friend's gonna see this age age I'm gonna get terrorized even more embarrassed of my own grandparents and they told me that they um that my mum had been hiding me and my sister from them and they wanted to have some contact with us so it was planned that I go to London to a museum with my granddad my mind's 100 miles an hour I don't want to go to a museum um but I'm on this train I always vision it be in Wimbledon train comes to a halt and I'm looking across um the tracks and I see an abandoned train carriage covered in colorful graffiti um signatures writing words and um I remember just looking across the railstones seeing the railway track and the live rails of seeing trains buzzing past and saying to my granddad like whoa what's that and he said it's criminal damage it's graffiti and from that day I was like I was hooked like that was we were talking like well 30 years ago and tiny little boy I go back to school steal the teacher's whiteboard marker go to this little bridge called the white bridge where I'd seen graffiti tags and I start writing CVP on it which meant Culver's Vandal Posse these older kids eventually bumped into I'm writing CVP around the area and they say what's CVP I said that's my tag they said that's not a tag like that's like a crew or something that's initials need a proper tag so I created a tag fess and they were like and basically you shouldn't be spraying down or tagging down local alleys you need to be at the trains the train station so um one night they take me down to Hatbridge train station and I'm literally putting my life in these kids hands and um they um they're gonna teach me something called bushwhacking now bushwhacking is you hide in a bush off the end of a train platform when the train pulls up you run up onto the track and you're basically jumping out of a bush to whack the side of a train but bushwhacking meant the same if you jumped off the platform so then they're like the train's coming it's a London Victoria bound and the train pulls up and they jump down onto the tracks and I look and I jump down I'm tiny tiny tiny little kid and um I look and they're spraying their tags.

16:01So I start spraying Fess, Fess, Fess. And I look up and there's like commuters all tired from the day at work, looking down the lights, lighting us up. And, um, and then you hear the hissing of the railway and the doors bleeping shut. And then the train starts heading off like to Victoria and we jumped back onto the platform. And I remember looking down, seeing Fess, Fess, Fess go off towards London. And in my, in my tiny little brain, I believed that, um, I was going to be like this famous or infamous graffiti eyes. everyone's gonna know me but really that attention was the attention and affection that i was craving at that that i wasn't getting at home and i was craving yeah what is that we used to do that in glasgow we used to call it a menshe it was called we used to scribble our name it started on jotters i'm not a graffiti artist but we used to do like scribble on more jotters then it started in like schools and then we would do outside buildings and then we would do buses and everything but it was just like our initials, our names, like what is that rooted to?

17:00Because I remember doing it in a school, but I fucking, I wrote my real name. The police have went to my door and obviously my mum's fucking slapped behind the head, but that's how fucking stupid you are. You know, you're writing your real name just around the corner from your house and the police came around because we used to use like Tippex, it's that and then it's spray paint. But I wasn't thinking anything of it, but I just liked the fact of having my name in the town when we used to leave school we used to go up the town for the bus and spray our name on the wall and down lanes but it was like I would write English and we used to call it YPF where we were from Young Post of Leto but even though I wasn't in a gang we used to just write that anyway because I thought it was cool but there's so many people done that though like what is that?

17:45Well well the weird thing is it wasn't until many many years later that I started like really getting into where graffiti came from and I read a book um of a graffiti artist from New York must have been like late 60s early 70s and he's talking about getting on these trains and the danger um of just other just not even graffiti kids or graffiti gangs getting on beating them up or or going to shops it was called racking so you were going to auto repair shops or art shops and you would rack because it's a rack of paint and you would sleeve put spray paint up your sleeve so we were living this subculture that was brought over to England or London or Glasgow not even realizing the roots of it but the roots started in like late 60s with people writing their name like Mike and then their street like 171 so it started off with people writing their name and then usually their street or the street number and then somehow that um developed onto um these kids from the ghettos in america the bronx harlem and going into train yards and then literally writing their name just like in the most basic um in the most basic way and then that started turning into like a bubble it would be like you know one color on the on the inside and it would have an outline around it and then that started forming into bubble letters and then eventually into um letters with a lot of shapes which we would call pieces and then like full-on wild styles and characters and that's how the subculture was sort of born and then i think through books like um spray can art um and other books um my mind's gone blank with the with the famous book um and documentaries like style wars or seeing graffiti in early hip-hop videos that's how the subculture come to england and then you know i've just seen that graffiti for the first time and then it came into my life who did i have one was it goldie goldie yeah was he not big in the graffiti scene he was big in the graffiti scene yeah yeah i like goldie he's got a tough story a very tough upbringing so you'd started the graffiti then what was that did you feel again was that when you started to feel a part of something well we moved from that area um where the racial bullying was happening and we moved to maldon which is um how bad was the bullying there it was yeah it was bad it was bad it i feel like it shaped my life um of identity of becoming becoming an extreme later on in my story when i become an extremely disturbed and violent man it was all to do with like the shame and never to want to be called like a packy or judge because of my race and just wanting to fit in and be loved and stuff so yeah it was a it was it had a deep effect yeah how was your relationship with your mum and your stepdad so i would have thought that my childhood's normal i think as a child when you're going through when you're going through it whether there's lack of love or love or whatever you think that that's normal it's your condition it's only when you see you step out as an adult I don't know if you see that as a child you know like I don't know if you you could be a um you know a young age a teenager and go to another to a friend's house and see like some loving family think well why is my house not like that so um I think my mum was just she wasn't she just wasn't there emotionally but I wouldn't have known that at the time she she she left me in the care put me back into the care of a child minders where I was um the the um physical abuse stopped but the mental abuse started where they would lock me on the balcony and um and be shouting up and tormenting me calling me a bad loser while I'm this five-year-old boy running back and forth on the balcony I was left didn't care the dog that um that attacked me it was it wasn't put down I was going back to that house and I'd play in my toys on one side of the conservatory glass and the dogs on the other side watching me and I'm having nightmares about a dog coming to kill me through my childhood so um did that dog harm anyone else no not that I know of yeah were you also fucking terrified of that dog well it was the eyes i'll come to i'll come to a deep thing about eyes um later on in my prisoner journey but i would look through at that dog and he's staring at me and i'm staring at him and later on like a mental crisis was linked to someone that was in for murder was staring me in the eyes um so i feel like memories are definitely all linked but we moved to maldon in um southwest london and i was running out of school i was in new school running out couldn't handle the chaos and i'm walking along the stretch of railway each day in my school uniform and one day i came to umst hillier train station platform and there was a kid on the platform and um i remember looking at his um hands and his his sleeves and they were covered in um spray paint and ink stain so i went up to him i said do you write and he said yeah my tag's bath and I changed my tag to 706 um and I said I'm 706 his bath his name was Joe Smith who become my best friend and um he's two years older than me and we're now we're out of school and we're just going out stealing spray paint tagging a local area and we start to um we create a graffiti crew so a crew is a group of kids it's not a gang yeah so you just write in you know your your what crew so we called ourselves wz which stood for warriors um we're spraying it around a local area and the more wz was sprayed around the london borough of merton the more kids from like that weren't in school from dysfunctional families wanted to sort of join us so we're um wz what we call in graffiti terms get called getting up it's getting up buses back then in london were absolutely battered and one day we get onto the bus and our tags already on there and there's a line through my tag and a line through WZ.

24:00Now, someone sprays a line or draws a line for your tag, it's disrespect. So it's not just a line, it says stop writing WZ, you packy or all you packy. That was the message that was coming across and it was from a graffiti gang called WK. They were unhappy that we had started WZ and it sounded too similar and we were from like neighbouring boroughs. But my friends were laughing that I was called like a packy and I felt like this anxiety and shame again so even though I wasn't a fighter couldn't have a fight it's quite a weak or vulnerable kid but I lined it back and I said like wrote a message f you or something and then this lining war started where we started to line through WK tags there lining WZ so all around like the London Borough of Merton Royal Borough of Kingston where they were from and the London Borough of Sutton it was just battered with WZWK tags all lying through this chaos is happening and then one day I'm hanging around Malden station and this crew comes along called shadow crew group of hard um tough um local kids and they were a proper gang and um they come along saying that they've had a they had an altercation with WK and I saw this as an opportunity for me to start shouting my mouth was to shout my mouth off so trying to impress i started saying yeah i know where wk hang around hang around down new malden station um let's go down there friday let's let's get them i'm just talking you know trying to be some you know trying to be the tough kid when i clearly wasn't um but you know what do you think as a 14 year old boy do i really think that that's gonna happen do i really think friday's coming and people are there i don't know what i must be thinking but i definitely knew I I weren't going to be going to a fight but Friday came along and you've got all these kids from Sutton and Merton Burrow in their school uniforms you've got shadow crew and um they're all turning up at the station ready for this kid people was calling me sevens now this kid sevens this crazy kid he's going to go down he's going to attack WK I'd have another fight in my life like a proper fight I would run when WK were coming for me um and um so I'm standing there and it's getting more and more out of control more and kids are coming up and then like I said the more WZ was sprayed more more kids from hardened backgrounds were coming and there was this kid called Crazy Steve come from a violent background it was just him and his dad and him and his dad had heard about this fight and his dad I never knew this his dad made him a weapon for the fight it was half a broomstick shaved down into a point the other hand had a standing knife blade and screws coming out of it.

26:47Now he's about 12 years old. Yeah. He's a big kid. Bigger than us. He was 12 years old, 12 or 13. I'm sure it was 12. And now I'm thinking this is getting way out of hand now. I'm thinking, I hope the bus and that don't come to go down to their area, but buses were going past. And then eventually we're on the bus. Got to get two buses. It's pure chaos. There was 35 kids. We counted it because we was like in the midst of the anxiety, you know there's like bravado and i'm trying to be like this tough kid and we counted the numbers and in some sick sense we thought we was like proud of like getting that many numbers so i'm just going along with it but deep down i would have been hoping that this bus you know doesn't or we get there in wk not there but the bus um is now feels like it's going 100 miles an hour and we get down to new malden to the side of the station and we enter this alley for the first time there's that all bramble bush fly tipped waste it was a horrible sight for what was gonna unfold and we're walking through the bushes i must have been thinking i hope wk are not there um and shadow crew are there some big kids and then there's a partying in the bush and wk is sitting there and they're they've been on the bong they've been smoking um hash and there like stoned and um they knew it wasn't going to be like a nice visit and um the kid that was sitting there in front of me I actually knew him I used to paint with him and he looked at me and he said no sevens no I'm your friend and someone shouted set it seven set it and I looked down on the floor and I saw a piece of concrete and I picked up the piece of concrete and I started smacking the kid around the head with it and crazy Steve pulled out his weapon his dad made him and started beating kids around the head and I never knew that shadow crew had knives and they started stabbing other children and it was just pure mayhem and chaos and then I ran up the side of this embankment and jumped over the fence and I was on the platform of New Malden station and a train had pulled up the doors were open and I heard a thud and I looked behind it was crazy Steve we jump onto this train it's going to Wimbledon we're going to get a bus back to Malden he's got his weapon out there screws missing and the screws that were still there had like human flesh and hair sticking out of it and he was laughing in hysterics and I'm absolutely panicking, adrenaline rush, boiling hot, get back to Maldon.

29:06And the weirdest thing happened is that everyone started turning up and they were coming up to me and they were going, yes, bruv, yes, seven spudding me. And I'm this vulnerable little boy that's been bullied, racially bullied. But now all of a sudden I've got this respect and that from these kids. I thought they were tougher, but they believed that I had arranged that whole thing and that was the whole plan. And sort of words spread around the graffiti scene that WZ were like, you know, extremely violent. It hadn't happened in London graffiti before for that level of violence. Yeah, because the graffiti side, I think, was proper calm.

29:41You know, it was kind of, not nerds, but skateboarders. I've always seen it. And people who kind of kept themselves to themselves with no sort of violence. Is that correct? No, because there was a graffiti crew called DDS which stood for diabolical dubsters they lived the real life they lived like the subway culture of new york most kids wanted to be in that graffiti crew and there were they weren't the skater type they were um they got into all the london underground yards that's where you got your respect pre 9-11 when it was easier to get into the yards and they would paint the size of the old london undergrounds and they're a bit more tough i would be drinking like fighting um but not like a gang like WZ were but there were certain um sections of DDS like suck because they were all city um all over London but there were some southern members like south London members that were like were quite more gang mentality you spoke about abuse emotional abuse and physical abuse was that from your child minders um the emotional and physical abuse well the the the emotional abuse was was yeah from um being locked on on the balcony from by the childminder and um them like teasing me and my sister and yeah how can they do that who are these people are they like teachers or nursery teachers like nah this was this was on a a rough estate in south london um in like we say it must have been like late late 80s early well would have been late 80s it would have been 89 90 I don't think you know like safeguarding and and social services were like interested um is this just a random person who just calls himself a child no she was a child well it might it might have been it might have been but she was a female yeah she and she looked after um other other children yeah what did she used to do um well she would well it it seems petty but me and my sister obviously the being strangled being locked on the balcony they're downstairs and they're shouting out you bad loser and teasing me um but then me when me and my sister were eating food they would tell us that um we're eating like certain animals and stuff it was more like mental uh abuse or white like what winding us up but you know it had an effect it had an effect yeah how many of them of the children well it was one child minder but she had like older which were daughters that were older than us and i was only aware of the one son that had um physically abused abused me um what did he do that's with the with the fishing wire yeah that's still jailed abuse yeah well yeah well i didn't know that was child abuse yeah i didn't know that was something that had just happened to me but um because of what was going on at that age to me I started being violent to other children like when I cut the guy's lip in infant school but I also got a disabled kid he couldn't speak properly he'd just be allowed to run around the estate probably about probably around the same age as me and he was trying to speak to me at the top of these stairs on the estate and um I just I just got I pushed him down the stairs for probably about six or seven concrete stairs on the bottom head bleeding crying and I ran off to my um to my house and hide him and I would also throw stones and rocks like I'd wait around the corner and there's kids playing out and I said me kids were playing out on the estate in their nappies I remember and um and I'll just throw a stone or a brick into the playground eventually you hear a kid on the head and I'd run off.

33:28So what happened after the Foss gang fight then was that when you felt a sense of power and felt it was okay and they weren't part of something i felt extremely trapped um where i had to for my own safety i had to up the level of violence and become this character so my tag was 706 and my street name was now sevens but because of my behavior of people would call me 706 instead of 706 so if anybody done something violent or robbery or something I had to do it as well if someone wrote their tag three times I had to write my tag 10 times so Bath and Nems they had robbed a kid on the train um next day they told me this then I didn't really know and that sounds stupid but I didn't really know what robbery was um something you saw in a movie um and we're at a local train station because we would always hang around at stations and um a kid comes onto the platform he's got gold on his wrist gold on his neck i'm like okay i must be thinking okay i've got to rob this kid now i've gone up to him i said give me your effing jewelry and he laughed at me and told me to where to go i couldn't understand but hold on a minute why how's i'm a joker like i couldn't understand it because these other kids are scared of me right so we've gotten to the train Bath and Nemza I've said just leave it they're chatting to the kid they don't think I'm going to do anything I walk down the train to the emergency cabin which graffiti tags would always break into I've ripped the cabin open and I've looked in and I've seen a saw so I've grabbed the saw I've looked down to the carriage and I've seen the kids sitting there and I've started running down the train my friends don't know I'm coming he sees and I say give me a fucking jewelry now and he gives me his jewelry throws the jewelry um bath and thems and I and then the train stops and we run off we jump onto the tracks we run down tracks throw the sword the very next day we're trying to sell the gold in a local pawn shop he walks in with a kid from a new school they go that's Justin Rollins we run leave the gold and we're basically arrested and we're told we're going to go to Felton Young Offenders Institution.

35:44So I'm 14 and we're on bail for like nine months. WZ are up to just like graffiti, chaos. And then we go to Kingston Crown Court and my mum dresses me in this little shirt and a tie, not knowing I'm going to stand out like a sore thumb. And I get four months in Felton Young Offenders Institution. Four months to me, I just town 15 it felt like a life a lifetime it sounds ridiculous now I was taken to Felton Young Offenders and I must be absolutely shitting myself now and this is when Felton was it was hardcore um and going through into reception strip search and then they put me in this cell the holding cell and um something I saw in there like just stood out to me it really messed with my head so then there was like three I reckon about three Asian boys in there they got their trousers around there hanging down their ass they've got long greasy hair they got screw face hands and a child and I'm looking and I'm like well intimidated they're not saying anything to me and I just couldn't get my head around it that there's these like tough Asian rude boys because in my area if you was Asian you was classed as a weak as horrible as sound a weak packing you'd get beaten I just it's just an image that stuck into my head right so I um Felton Young Offenders it has about 22 units all named after a bird so I was taken to Heron unit and I was placing the cell next to my friend Nems Bath was taken to the older side and um I remember I must have been spotted by the more hardened kids yeah um I mean my gray tracksuit um I don't know how many days have passed but they're screaming out of the windows pure chaos um there's the pipe that runs through kids have got like spoons and they're banging a pipe bing bing bing bing bing and he's just like for my brain they're just it's horrendous um then one night they're calling me out the window the boys they've been terrorizing other kids and they're calling me going hey number five come to the window and i'm like fucking harp oh my god go to oh my god oh my god come to the fucking window now and i'm thinking oh my god if i don't go what's gonna oh my god what's gonna happen and then my mate Nems is like and there's a little holes in the pipe where the concrete's coming away he's going Justin don't go to the window don't go to the window he must have known something I didn't know and I've gone to the window I'm like yeah and they're like oi number five sing baba black sheep now sing baba and everyone's screaming shouting sing baba black sheep now we're gonna kill you and I'm like and Nems is going bruv don't don't bruv come away from window come in i go to the window i'm like and the whole unit is screaming shouting pure chaos nems is going no no my heart's pounding i've literally just been ridiculed in that in that in the eyes of a 15 year old that was going to live with me forever where basically if he was made to sing out the window he was a fraggle and that was the term back then and if he was a fraggle you got moved to the fraggle unit.

38:56So the fraggle unit was really the vulnerable person's unit and the vulnerable person's unit was for the bully kids or now for the kids with neurodiverse issues. So I've pressed the buzzer, never pressed the buzzer before, I've only been in a few days, officer comes along and says, what's going on? I said, they're making me sing out the window. Right. He's just like, he knows straight away. He says, pack your bags. And I'm like, I don't know where I'm going to. He takes me to Bitten unit, which was the fraggle unit. Now I move on to the fraggle units are completely different. It's calm. There's no bullying.

39:28I get a job on the servery. I'm serving up the food with this kid, big black kid called Thompson from Brixton. And racism, officers would openly use racist terms back then. So my nickname was Little Ladle and Thompson's was Big Ladle, which stood for little spoon and big spoon, rhyming slang for racist term but these were the just as i was released from that sentence to to say how hardcore felton was and how scary it was um zahid mubarak was um killed in his cell by robert stewart who was a known racist to zahid was getting out as felton the next day and um zahid took a table leg and uh battered him to death felton was a scary place but i got released back into the community and I thought I was even though I was bullied I thought I was like this big kid I'm sucked back in I'm getting all this other respect I've got a girlfriend now 15 years old got my first girlfriend because they people think it's cool that I've been to Felton Young Offenders and then one day she comes along and says with her mate and she's like I'm pregnant and I'm like I'm just I ain't got you got you pregnant blah it's all this arguing it's just chaos and then she comes back like a few days later she's got a scan picture now um I've got her stepdad phoning me up down you little bastard you've got my daughter pregnant and then at 15 years old it's like okay like I'm gonna be a dad yeah uh and I've got this scan picture on me and I would go I would be going to like car phone warehouses and uh phones for you and we were like robbing um phones and that from from the shop and I'm at Ballum station bump into some British transfer police that know me they pull me up they've got I've got a phone on me uh brand new in a box and they're like where have you got this from like I'm gonna get Nick for handing stolen goods pull up scan photo and I'm like I'm gonna be a dad and they're like the whole energy changed to me.

41:31They're like, oh, well done. Well done. They let me go and let me take the phone. Yeah. So, um, I don't know how many weeks later it was, but, um, I go to the hospital for a scan with, um, Danielle and her mum. I'm sitting there and, um, the midwife saying, yeah, you're, um, this, you know, you're, you're this amount of weeks pregnant. Um, I'm looking for you, hold on a minute. Like something's not adding up here. That can't be, that can't be my, but I was so weak like I didn't have a voice I couldn't say but I sort of got up and like the mum and Danielle knew it weren't my baby nothing was really said and I walked out there I was absolutely gutted fucking being a dad at 15 and I lived on the same road as sitting in the hospital and I walked back home I'm angry now got no one to talk to find a bottle of my mum's red wine drinking red wine angry pace in the house hours have passed look out the window car pulls up it's danielle and her mum i'm like they've got the decency to come and apologize to me yeah for putting me through all this they got out the car they went to my neighbor's house it was um it was his it was his baby yeah you're joking while you were in the yos yeah how old was he um well do you know what i i later on saw him in life because i wrote i wrote about that and he was like bruv it weren't my baby but they weren't they in my mind because i i used to write poems and i said i read so you so you can guess i wasn't there in late in late during labor turned out it belonged to my next door neighbor something like that but he was like it weren't mine um yeah so um did you ever find out whose it was yeah she did she didn't keep the baby um she didn't keep the baby in the end yeah so what happens then when you're starting to get full of anger you're getting bullied you You think you're the big boy, you're still getting buried.

43:24So things started to get dark very quickly. Dark and disturbing very quickly. So winter came, we're hanging around in crazy Steve's house. He's feeling more powerful that we're his family. And he starts to turn the abuse that he suffered as a child onto his dad. And I don't know if he beat his dad up, but he kicks his dad out of the house. and his house becomes like a WZ house. It is horrendous. Yeah, social services knocking on the door, armed police. It was, he starts doing some stuff like he believes he's worshipping the devil. He's doing Ouija balls, doing all this witchcraft stuff. He's going into like graveyards, collecting like gravestones and he starts like self-harming and there's blood over the walls and we're drinking, taking ecstasy, smoking hash.

44:20We're stoned. And then one day, and he's saying that, filling our minds up with all this demonic stuff. One day, a WZ boy started crying during a session and he just started attacking another kid. Now, crazy Steve is filling our brain up that there's a demon inside this boy and it's attacking the other boy. It was freaking me out when I was petrified and the house was out of control. The walls that had graffiti on started turning into layers of graffiti, started turning to blood on the walls, witchcraft signs, sick in the corners of the rooms. People just coming in and out of the house. It's horrendous environment for 15 year old kids to be in.

44:59And one day when his dad was back with his drinking partner, cause there'd be little phases, um, the drinking partner disrespected crazy Steve in front of, in front of us. Now we would have to like hold crazy. See, don't do it. don't do it bruv like it sounds stupid because i'm 15 23 and he's got a machete and a samurai sword and he used to have a stereo and he used to listen to old dirty odb old dirty bastard and he puts odb on and odb singing oh baby i like it well that's on full blast we're like what's going on we can't hold him back he goes into the front room with the machete leaves a samurai goes in the machete and goes to kill his dad's drinking partner for disrespecting him in front of us and the guy put his arms up um severed all of his arm disabled his arm couldn't use his arm after that and then um he attacked someone with as random it is a hoover battered another kid in the house with a hoover and then one day he was running around on all on all four speaking in what we believed to be demonic tongues it might have been an act bees running around on all fours chasing people with his top off it was fucking horrendous and i remember my friend bath saying to me one day do you believe in all of that demon oh no fucking oh my i was so scared when i would go home i would sleep on my mum's floor i was that petrified of it um and things were getting deeply out of control it was new year's eve and it was sort of the beginning of the end for um for wz i was at bath's house and um we're drinking we're drunk and we'd always have to get hyped up and he's punching punching in his uh like a bedroom mirror punching it in knuckles are bleeding and then we're like i just got mad and then he gets a razor and then without you know you know when you've got like a your best friend he's like your brother you're just like on the same wavelength and then you just I just sort of knew what he was thinking so I just started digging the razor in my arm cutting my arm and he's doing the same and then I just started getting blood and putting it all over my head and then he done the same and then there was a knock on the door it was probably early like it's probably early evening New Year's Eve and there's a knock on the door and a WZ kid was there seeing what he was doing and we've come to the door covering in blood he's absolutely shitting himself and we're like whoa this is good yeah so we go out onto the streets we're heading more into South London because my cousin and a friend that's just been released from prison for attempted murder are they're getting served in this pub they're like yeah you can get served in there I mean this is South London when it was rough as hell not gentrified like it is today and um we're making our way there and each time we see a group of kids that are sort of going out for the night we had our hoods up and we were approaching them and we're putting it on them and they want to fight and then once you pull the hood back and reveal all the blood they're like freaked out like they don't want to fight so we knew it's sort of like a power thing and we walk into this tough pub all drinkers sitting there some not even batting an eyelid that was just sitting there covered in blood and we're getting served pints and then eventually the landlord said listen lads you need to um you need to go and clean up mate otherwise you're getting out of So me and Joe are in the toilets.

48:20We're cleaning off the blood. We come back out and a friend, let's call him Kenneth. Kenneth's gone into the kitchen and he's nicked like a box of eggs and he's egging people in the pubs. And then the locals like basically dragged us out. We're on the street. We're absolutely intoxicated. And we start walking down this road. And I remember we stopped for a minute and I'm staring across the road and there's this man staring at me. And then I'm just like, what? Because I know I've got my friends. I'm just being an idiot. And he comes over and he pulls out a knife. But my friend Kenneth, he was a tough kid.

48:53He had just done a lot of time. He's got the knife now. The man's got beaten up. He's got the knife. And then we run off. But we know that we're meeting up at this party. This is where it gets extremely out of hand. We know we're meeting up at this party where it's going to be a New Year's celebration. We don't even know that. It's gone midnight now. and we're unaware but me and Bath go one way my cousin and Kenneth go another way about 30 minutes later we're where this party is going to be and we're walking down the road we can hear noise chaos and then I can hear screaming and I know the voice and it's Danielle and she's got into an altercation with these men she's giving it to them and then they come out of nowhere just start swinging at us thinking we're with her punching bath hitting me we all run off we congregate come back together with danielle the four boys danielle and her friend and now we're in rose hill and she's arguing with baths having an argument with her you fucking got me bottled you blah blah and they're arguing and i'm just like look danielle let's let's go yeah let's calm it there she's trying to fight my friends.

50:07So I took her and her friend and we started wandering off. We've gone about 10 minutes down the road or five minutes down the road and we're sitting outside a hospital. Now, I don't know that she's called up her mum, but outside the same hospital where, you know, I found out that I weren't the dad of the baby. I look in the distance, I can see a car swerving all over the show the car pulls up and um it's her mum she's like get in the fucking car we're going to get him get in the car just we're going to get and I'm like what are you going on about like fucking I'm not getting in the car that's my friends yeah they jumped in the car drove off I'm just sitting there on the on the hospital wall now you know deep into the night my phone starts ringing it's Danielle's friend Jessica get quick come come she's been stabbed she's been stabbed I'm like what the fuck is going I start running down running down to Rose Hill get to Rose Hill my friends are gone Danielle's mum's laying on the floor um my friend Kenneth she what I found out is she had jumped out of the car her and Danielle started attacking him and he's just pulled pulled the knife out from earlier in the night stabbed her in her stomach and she's laying on the floor bleeding bleeding out my friends are gone and um yeah then we're all back in the hospital together fucking that was um that was the beginning of the end of wz what happened to her she survived i don't know i can't remember the full intensity but she she survived i remember being in hospital the stepdad being a distraught the family's distraught i don't know what's going on the police are after all of my friends um and i go to film young offenders for um robbery for some more robberies i'm back on the heron unit and i phone up um bath that's joe my best mate and i phone up his phone i say it's joe there and their voice i just knew you know when something's happening like no um joe was found dead yesterday in um in uh maldon where we where we hung around um and yeah i didn't know how to take it i didn't know what to do and um i was i was found um i was released i was released from prison i went back into my community and i couldn't understand that my my friend um my friend my friend died like who i'd started WZ and he was like my brother and um and I start sleeping where he died and um my mental health is deteriorating rapidly and I'm arming myself with a meat cleaver to all these other gangs after me and um one day I decide to get onto the tube and say fuck it like enough's enough right I get on this tube I don't care what happens to me I've got Croydon boys Brixton boys after me I'm sleeping where Joe died I got my back against the wall I'm staying up on the roof above the shops in Malta I'm looking down I'm seeing them come for me got my friends dead there and I just couldn't take take of what was what was happening um and I got onto the London Underground with this kid in WZ kid and we're heavily intoxicated and he starts going through this man's pocket he's the man's asleep the train's moving now the truth is moving is going towards South Wimbledon and um the guy wakes up and sees me standing there with the meat cleaver and he jumps up in panic catches his chin just as the doors were opening at South Wimbledon and runs off screaming pissing in blood and then um and then another man gets onto the tube and um he sees me with the meat cleaver and he makes his move grabs me the train's picking up pace now and I fall onto the floor and um and this guy's on top of me and my meat cleaver's in my hand a skinny little boy and he's trying to get the meat cleaver and then as I'm looking as I open my eyes I'm seeing a flashing of the tunnels and I'm seeing all the shit that's just happened my best friend dying and all the madness it felt in young offenders institution and I was just like fucking take it I didn't say it but I was like in my brain take it kill me the man's got the meat cleaver my friend starts hitting him and I run down the tube carriage my friend I don't know where he's gone and then I'm in the corner of the tube carriage I look around and the man's there at a meat cleaver and he just starts hacking at me and he chopped me down the side of the face I didn't know I'd been chopped because I'm so just adrenaline pumped chopped me in the elbow caught my leg and the the only reason I knew I was chopped because my bone was hanging out of my thumb where it chopped through my um part of my hand with um bone coming out and the tube doors open at Colliers Wood and I started running I went to the to the hospital and the police come to the hospital my mum come to the hospital and um I was so far gone at that stage that I was I know it sounds quite sick and disturbing but I was um I was happy that I had got chopped in the face because it was like a form of self-harm and destruction to hate um the the person that I was and and to hate them um Asian them Asian roots yeah and um I got four and a half years in prison for that and I went to Felton Young Offenders and I went to HMP Highdown in Sutton which had just opened up a unit for young offenders institutions they didn't know what to do kids are coming to your cell beating the hell out of you they just treated you like adults they were getting the overflow of felt young offenders and um i got moved to the health care unit because of my mental health and i was putting this gated cell which a gated cell was a 24-hour watch cell so there was two of them on the health care unit but felt young high down was a category a prison and i'm 18 years old and I'm in a healthcare unit with two cat A's.

56:18Suicide watch? Yeah, suicide watch, yeah. So they've got me in this gated cell. And um, we didn't have uh, TVs, had stereos and there's a story on the news of like this body that's been found in a house in um, Basingstoke. Head, someone's head's been like cut off and thrown into a, to a neighbor's garden. There's parts of this body found around town. and um they're looking for this guy called richard markham and um he's done a run to america and english a british tourist saw him sitting in central park reading the sun newspaper he gets arrested he gets extradited back to england and he walks onto the healthcare unit and those um suicide watch sales are held for mentally unwell prisoners or for higher profile prisoners at risk of suicide before trial ends up in a cell next door to me so i'm 18 years old with richard markham next to me and there was this little gap in the cell and we become friends and um he told me he was telling me about the case of something at you know he was proud of like at that time um and he showed me the police diagram stuff that the press didn't um know about and he had cut off his friend's arm and cooked it in the oven and stabbed the hot fork in it and hot fat spat out on his face so at 18 years old I'm being held next to him and Joe's dad Bath was an infamous criminal armed robber he wasn't allowed to go to Joe's funeral but he was allowed to come from Whitemore to high down to see his family for three weeks after the death of his son and because of the chaos I was causing on the healthcare unit the self-harm and the madness that they thought because he was a high-profile prisoner maybe you know he could talk some sense into me so they took him up took me up to the chapel on Joe's birthday which was he would have been 43 yesterday and I walked into the chapel and I see his dad sitting there and his dad was um well his dad's an old razor smith and um I'm looking at him and I'm just seeing an older Joe was sitting there and it was very um like surreal I didn't know Razor's history or anything um and we sat there and we spoke about Joe he didn't know too much what was going on in Joe's life it must have been shocking for him to hear and um the prison started letting him come down to my cell to you know sort of mentor me and then one day comes down I'm like ADHD out my brain and I'm like razor mate this is my mate richard and then richard come well i'll say he comes out he wouldn't can't just come out when you're a cat a but he would have shook razor's hand through the bars and razor later told me that like he couldn't believe that i was 18 years old being held next to this killer that was all over the news um and i i got shipped out of there and i went to wood hill prism um and after eastenders every night on the young offenders institute wing would everyone would kick their door in after eastenders like the doof doof doof doof doof and then everyone would start booting their doors and me and this kid from east london we start smashing in the door of a chair smash the glass oh shit we're gonna get nick now i'm gonna go to seg gonna go punishing block so i said look i set off arm yeah what if i do a little cut on my arm and then you say you were so scared you smash the door you don't get punished i don't get punished yeah all right plan's gonna go it's gonna go well he does that he gets moved cell see i don't know what i don't know i'm sort of losing a plot i start smashing the cell to pieces doing all this strangling myself i i've just lost the plot cut my arms up and then i don't know that you know i don't know like police um officers can come with shields and that.

1:00:21Door opens, shields smash me to the ground, bent me up, start taking me through the prison. All the kids on the unit had just been booting their doors after these centers, booting the hell out the door, screaming, shouting, let them go. They're taking me through this prison, Woodhill. It's a new prison to me. I haven't been there for long. Bent up, arms absolutely caning from cutting them and from being bent up in handcuffs. Actually, I don't know if I was in handcuffs, but they're bent up behind my back. Take me onto this unit. I'm thinking it must be a healthcare unit never been there before there's a boarded up section i'm looking out the corner of my eye as much as i can and there's a door there's a boarded up section the door put in they open up the door walk in and there's three of those suicide watch cells and in the far corner there's a lady sitting there with a um with a computer it would have been a big computer back then all this paperwork there's a there's a um cell like a bulbous name on there i get put into the cell next door to it I'm going absolutely crazy I've put a blanket around my head I've covered myself in blood I'm like punching myself and screaming and just doing all this shit I've just lost the plot and um next morning I wake up sore arm sore and the there was a cell it was a it was a gate but then as you come through the gate there's a cell door as well but that was constantly like bolted to the wall so you could step out and you could look and I stepped out and I looked and it said um Huntley Cat A and uh and um I was in a cell next to Ian Huntley and they had boarded off that section it was 2002 when when he had killed them them little girls and um they had sectioned off that area so no one could get to him so he was the most high profile prisoner at the time.

1:02:08And yeah, being next to him. Yeah. Fucked my head up. Yeah. It's so strange because I'm good friends with Noel. Yeah. And Noel's been on the podcast and he speaks about Joe. He says the priest, he came up, but when a priest comes to your cell, you know, somebody's died. Noel didn't want to speak to him. Yeah. He says, look, your son passed away. Was it Joe? Yeah. That's the moment I think Noel smashed it up because they wouldn't let him go to the funeral. I believe he was going to riot. Yeah. I believe he then spoke to someone and Noel ended up going to Crendon. Yeah. Changing his life. Yeah. That was the moment.

1:02:51Yeah. Adam changed his life. Noel Reza Smith is the most notorious bank robber in London. Unbelievable guy, unbelievable story. So much time for Noel. But that's mad the connection. Yeah. know a very good friend of mine Yeah, he's um... And Joe, was it suicide with Joe? Joe's death was left as an open verdict. He was a suspicious death. So, um... So a family, someone had put, someone had handed an anonymous letter to Malden Police Station saying that a local family that we had beef with, um, had killed Joe. but there was never any investigation or anything. So it could have been murder. So we never know what happened to Joe.

1:03:45People like to say it was this, it was that, but it was left as an open verdict. So as it's an open verdict, you don't know. It's like classed as a suspicious death. So you're then going through the system. You've got a cannibal next door. What was he like? Richard Markham in Highdown. I think because it's mad, I've interviewed people who's been in the catty, triple catty, people don't think there's triple catty. But there is. But they end up becoming friends with mass murderers. They don't end up seeing their crimes. Which is strange because you're just seeing the rapport of building a friendship with someone who's fucked as well.

1:04:26So you must have cut out for what he's done and just built that relationship. What was that like? Well, because I was so hyperactive, which I now know to be ADHD, and they were just filling me with all sorts of medication. I thought it was just like where I'd built this mentality of being 706. It's like, yeah, I'm next to this. Look at my new friend. He's a, and Razor's thinking, what's going on here? And I'm thinking it's like cool to be with this psychopathic killer, but it just shows a level of what was going through my brain. What was he doing? Cooking people? he killed he killed his best friend um in a house and he chopped his friend up dismembered him and put parts of him in a local park and then yeah and then i he didn't yeah from what i know he didn't eat the arm but he cooked he cooked the arm in an ovens yes and stabbed it um with a with a fork so obviously ian huntley one of the worst killers in the uk if not the world anybody that and he does that as evil with the core.

1:05:30I always say a bullet in the head for these people, but I think that's too clean cut for them. Like, how was that being next door to Ian Huntley? Well, by this time I was really mentally unwell, where I'm calling myself a packy. You dirty packy! And fucking slicing myself and got this thing over my head. And I was just, that's what you see in them suicide watch cells, that you're ready to be sectioned. You don't know it. When you're going through it, you don't know it. so to be next to him I knew it was scary it was like how am I here but I didn't understand until you know I understand what he done but I couldn't understand that how I couldn't even understand how have I gone from Maldon how have I made this journey through Maldon and now I'm in this isolated cell next door to Ian Huntley so it was very confusing for me and and I think traumatic for me because though I would like to have thought I was this tough kid, I wasn't.

1:06:24How many times did you try and take your own life? Well, to be honest, I don't think it was like taking your own life. I don't think, I feel, because I've got friends that have committed suicide. One of my friends, one of mine and Joe's friends. And I don't think I, from experience people like, you know, people might hint and that, but a lot of the time they just go and do it so mine was more like the extreme intrusive faults and the hatred for myself was more like a self-harm thing um one time i i um tied i was heavily intoxicated and concussed after a fight and i was in a police cell and i tied i don't know i ripped my top off tied around my neck and i was very very lucky that they was watching me on the camera and they came in they they used some type of scissors or something to cut it off and just left me on the floor but they bent me up and my I was laying on the floor hyperventing I'm saying that yeah it's been a few times and um but that was bad because when I looked in the mirror the next day I couldn't understand why I had all these little dots all around my face and that and it was where it was like blood vessels popping man that that was horrible but saying about becoming friends with killers and yeah you're in the system and and you're just seeing a person if they're cool with you so i got moved to hmy at owlsbury in buckinghamshire and um owlsbury housed 18 to 21 year old serving four years to life um so it it housed like horrific murderers of that age and um a lot of my friends well my friends were just they were in for murder um and it just becomes norm and um is this friends from the graffiti gang nah nah two two of my friends from my graffiti gang one killed another kid with a knife he got lifed off and um and then the guy that stabbed kenneth that stabbed danielle's mum second attempt to murder lifed off um what about crazy steve where is he at this point crazy steve i don't know where i don't know where he is he's on he's he's gone he's he's yeah i don't know where where they are i'm on my own like horrific path man of see when that when you're in his house and you're cutting yourself and rubbing yourself with blood is that sort of what you took into the prison system trying to get maybe that fear factor of he's yeah i did yeah like a protection yeah yeah definitely um but then it went overboard where for if who's actually doing that anyway if you're doing that you're mentally you are fucking mentally unwell so do you know what i mean so i don't want to say it bro but you're fucking going you are yeah so so like i saw someone his surname was fooled you know you call people by the surname fooled and whilst i was in that cell next to huntley he came into the cell next door fooled um he was on suicide watch and then when i ended up in um owlsbury he come onto the unit and um he's odd odd guy and um he started preaching to me and then uh and he told me like he had found god i thought i must have been like well done like you know he's trying to sort out his mental health whatever he starts putting his notes under the door about god and stuff like okay he's getting a bit too much now and then then he starts turning on everyone then it goes into your your you're all like sinners and then he i've saw him go downhill rapidly where he's then he's placed into a strip cell and he's not washing he's like flooding his cell to have to turn the electrics off the psychiatrist is outside monitoring him he's screaming you know you're a sinner you're this you that he's coming out with his tray with moldy food on his plate and the kids on the server he were just laughing and putting fresh beans on the on the moldy food it was it was horrendous man um the self-harm i saw irish traveler called ward sliced his own throat staples through it fergus Tracy, who was one of my friends, he had killed a homeless guy in a park in a cemetery in East London.

1:10:49And he sliced his arm. He was a serious self-arm. He sliced his arm and then I'm cleaning and he's calling me and I go and then his arm's pissing out with blood and he's pulling his ligaments, waving at me like with his fingers. It was fucking horrendous. And obviously I'm in a bad place mentally and um this kid starts going to me you prankster you prankster like prankster what's a prankster mean joke what i'm a joker yeah i'm not serious yeah and um on association keeps calling me a prank said don't call me a prankster and he jumped up and he was like what and he ran at me and just headbutted my tooth yeah well his head hit my broken tooth he's i look up i'm on the floor now brains rattle and i look up he's standing above me his head's bleeding I jump up with a porky who start chasing him officers come they take him away I get put back in my cell he goes to punishment unit for um headbutting me and I go back to my cell and I'm like what the fuck was like what was that about like that come from nowhere someone told me what he was in prison for and then I was like okay like I could be in serious danger here so him and um another group of kids they was on a bridge similar to London Bridge, one of the big bridges across the Thames, and there was two foreign exchange students walking over.

1:12:13They decided to attack the foreign exchange students. They beat them unconscious. They're laying there on the floor. They pick them up and they throw them off of the bridge into the Thames. One of them doesn't regain consciousness. He dies, he drowns, and the other one woke up floating past Big Ben. His rucksack was holding him up. Now this guy's just attacked me and I've just been told this like, and I'm absolutely shitting myself. This guy's going to, he's just attacked me for literally no reason to come back. He's going to kill me. I was convinced of it. And I'm laying in bed, tossing, turning.

1:12:48Oh my God, I couldn't sleep. I'm terrified. Oh my God, he's going to come back. He's killed. Couldn't get it out of my head. I was serving up the food like two weeks later. And I know he's going to come around that corner. The prison's coming if he's going to come in the corner, he comes down and he's just staring at me, just watching me in the eyes, staring. And I'm like, fuck, absolutely. He's going to kill me. Those eyes stayed with me for 15 years until I had my specialist trauma therapy. And I started to, I had to watch my back for this kid for a year and a half, him passing me in a corridor.