In short
Criminologist Sandra Lean discusses her 16-year involvement in the Luke Mitchell murder case, arguing Luke was wrongly convicted in the murder of 14-year-old Jodie Jones. She claims major investigative and media errors, unreliable witness accounts, contaminated crime-scene handling, and DNA results that she says do not match Luke.
Guest backgrounds
Sandra Lean is a criminologist who began investigating after Jodie was found behind the high school her daughter attended. She says she became involved out of concern for her own children’s safety and doubts that the “boyfriend did it” narrative was correct.
Key claims
Luke and his mother passed lie-detector tests in prison (not admissible in court). DNA from the scene allegedly did not include Luke and instead pointed to another male; police allegedly advanced a “borrowed T-shirt” explanation for DNA on Jodie’s sister’s boyfriend’s clothing. Lean alleges witness identification was influenced by timing and leaked stories, including claims about Luke’s “Manson/Black Dahlia” obsession and a “parka jacket” later used in media.
Notable examples
a witness’s sighting description allegedly changed; photos of Luke in a parka jacket appeared after a later identification; a moped appeal led to youths being eliminated after inconsistent timelines; and Lean says the search party’s statements and the body-discovery timeline were misunderstood.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOBackground of the Luke Mitchell Case
0:45 to 2:10
Sandra shares her connection to the case and her reasons for involvement.
Initial Reactions and Community Response
2:10 to 4:30
Discussing the immediate community response and initial doubts about Luke's guilt.
“and it was just to see if you could shed some light on where it all began for you and why you get involved so much, so deeply involved in it.”
Skepticism of Evidence and Media Influence
4:30 to 6:40
Sandra reflects on media portrayal and the impact of public opinion on the case.
“to dig something up like this is because it's not just affecting yourself or Luke's mum or Luke, you've still got to think about Jodie Jones' family who think they've got a conviction.”
Luke's Personal Background
6:40 to 11:03
Exploring Luke's upbringing and the nature of his relationship with Jodie.
“I think one of the interesting things about that is the Marilyn Manson connection and the Black Dahlia and all of that.”
Witness Accounts and Testimonies
12:28 to 14:00
Analyzing witness statements and the inconsistencies surrounding them.
“We had a witness that said they'd seen Luke and Jodie on the path at that time where she got murdered.”
The Investigation Timeline and DNA Evidence
14:00 to 22:32
Explore the details of the investigation, including DNA findings and how they shaped the case.
“talking about this description and everything else.”
Conflicting Narratives and Alibis
23:57 to 28:00
Analyze the conflicting narratives in the investigation and the implications for Luke's conviction.
“They all told the police it was closing time.”
Evidence Against Luke Mitchell
28:00 to 34:14
Explore the key evidence that led to Luke Mitchell's conviction.
“is that there are so many people that exactly the same arguments that are made to say it made Luke look bad could be used against other people.”
Evidence Against Luke Mitchell
34:44 to 35:11
Explore the key evidence that led to Luke Mitchell's conviction.
“Star Wars, The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+.”
Lie Detector Results and Retrial
35:11 to 42:01
Discussion on the lie detector results and the pursuit of a retrial for Luke.
“So the guy came up, a guy called Terry Mullins, came up from London.”
Show all 19 chapters
Analyzing the Investigation Process
42:01 to 45:08
Learn about the complexities and potential oversights in the investigation of Jodie's murder.
“You know, what if, I don't know, what if there's something that they know about that we don't?”
Analyzing the Investigation Process
46:13 to 46:30
Learn about the complexities and potential oversights in the investigation of Jodie's murder.
“It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks.”
Miscarriages of Justice and Evidence Discussion
47:38 to 56:00
Explore the issues surrounding evidence and testimonies in Luke Mitchell's case.
“a better look before forensics got there.”
Facing Challenges in Advocacy
56:00 to 56:30
Learn about the personal struggles behind advocating for justice.
“Is there a time you feel like giving up?”
Facing Challenges in Advocacy
57:03 to 57:56
Learn about the personal struggles behind advocating for justice.
“You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome?”
Unpacking the Case Details
58:30 to 1:02:30
Delve into the complexities and inconsistencies of the Luke Mitchell case.
“Well, for example, the boys on the moped saying that the granny told them not to go to the police.”
The Quest for Justice
1:02:30 to 1:05:21
Explore the ongoing efforts to advocate for a retrial and justice.
“I would never have believed that they can get away with the sort of things they get away with until I saw it with my own eyes.”
The Importance of Open-Mindedness
1:05:21 to 1:07:25
Understanding the significance of having an open mind in contentious cases.
“Wanted to do an interview with you Sandra?”
Final Thoughts and Reflections
1:07:25 to 1:10:03
Concluding reflections on the implications of the Luke Mitchell case.
“Avatar Fire and Ash is now streaming on Disney+.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:01The Crispy Chicken Crunchwrap Slider is back at Taco Bell. The slider-sized crunchwrap with nuggets inside you loved the first time, now with a spicy kick you're gonna love this time. Hidden Valley Diablo Ranch. Or you could order some crispy all-white meat nuggets on their own. Pretty sure you love those anytime. Every time. Okay, all of the times. The Crispy Chicken Crunchwrap Slider. A brand new classic is back. Only at Taco Bell. I'm participating in U.S. Talkable locations for limited time and while supplies last.
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1:14we're on today's guest we've got sandra lean sandra you're a criminologist and you're here today you've worked on the luke mitchell case for the last 16 years fighting for his freedom how are you Sandra? yeah I'm well thank you thanks for giving us the time to come into your house and tell the story I got taught about this case it was actually last week with a man called Joe Steele who spent 18 years in prison himself for a crime he didn't commit where six murders occurred where six members of the doggy family were murdered in a fire so it was Joe actually mentioned Luke Mitchell and if I'm honest I know Luke has newspapers as monster, evil, stuff like that, what I portrayed.
1:59I don't know anything about the case. I actually dipped into it a wee bit for the last week and you sent me some stuff yourself and there is a question mark for my opinion on the case and it was just to see if you could shed some light on where it all began for you and why you get involved so much, so deeply involved in it. If we can go right back to the start, we'll start off with what's your relationship with the Mitchell family? At the time, I didn't know them. I didn't know Jodie's family, the victim's family. I had no connection with them whatsoever. The reason I got involved in any way, Jodie was found behind the high school that my eldest daughter attended.
2:39My girls, I have two girls who were around about Jodie's age. And she was found behind that high school. So we lived locally, obviously. the gossip from pretty much the first day was incredible and I started to think well hang on they've gone after this lad immediately what if it wasn't him what if it's actually somebody else, are my girls safe, and that was what started the whole thing, was their safety because it's a very touchy subject even me shining light on it because of the brutality of the crime. Yes. It's 16 years. Luke has always protested his innocence. I know a few people in shots prison.
3:27He doesn't dub his door. He's not in protection. But what got it for me and why I wanted someone to come on and speak about it is he actually passed a lie detector in prison to say that he wasn't a murderer. And his mum actually passed a lie detector also to say that Luke was actually in her house the night of the crime. Yeah. and that she didn't dispose of any clothing or cover up anything. Obviously, lie detector tests, you can't use them in court. But for two people to pass, that's millions. The odds are very high. Millions to one. I don't know, three million, four million. I don't know what it is.
4:01I think it's important as well to realise that neither of them knew in advance what the questions were going to be. They didn't know until the day the guy turned up to do the test. And they were done, I think it was two months apart. so there wasn't even an opportunity for them to discuss potential answers because they'd no idea what was going to be asked because people can pass tests, we get that but for two people to pass the odds are slim so for me that's when I started looking at net more, I started speaking to yourself and to dig something up like this is because it's not just affecting yourself or Luke's mum or Luke, you've still got to think about Jodie Jones' family who think they've got a conviction.
4:44But if I think personally that there's something not right, then I'm going to shed light on it. I'm not going to have someone potentially who may be innocent to be wrought in basically a cell just protesting his freedom. And the reason being is because Joe Steele was prime example. 18 years. People thought he was a beast or a murderer and the guy thought he was innocent. So we'll go right back to the start. We've spoke about your relationship with the Mitchell family, but obviously when you started getting deeper into the case, when you first started on it, what was the kind of telltale signs that things weren't quite right?
5:21Initially, the level of gossip in this area, some of the stories that were coming out about, supposedly about Luke's family and various bits and pieces, it started to become apparent. There were two things that started to become apparent. The first was that some of this information had to be coming from the police You know, information about the layout of the family home Unless it was people who'd been in the family home Where else was that information coming from?
5:56And the other was that people were just running with this The hysteria was incredible You've got to understand, you know, this is a series of small areas, small communities, interlinked communities. Nothing like that happens here. You hear everybody says, oh, things like that never happen here. But really, the shock and the disbelief that it could have happened, especially where it happened as a little country path. You know, kids play down there, dog walkers, fishermen. And the whole place was just hysterical. but within that hysteria it became apparent to me within a couple of weeks that this 14 year old lad was in the frame and it seemed like they were just tightening the grit and that worried me, that really worried me I thought, either they caught him red handed you know, they've got this, all this evidence and they've caught him red handed or there's something a bit strange going on here how could they possibly know this early that it was definitely him and that was that was what started to to make me wonder about it and then like everybody in the area I was talking to my friends about it and Luke's mum heard my take on it I don't know how many people were actually questioning whether they'd gone after the right guy back then because it was blanket belief the boyfriend did it so she put a note through the door of the place of art asking if he'd be willing to meet them the press certainly didn't help because front page, Monster, Evo 666 the music kind of side of things Nirvana Slipknot all the kind of music that people just because it's music obviously identify to being either crazy or they drink blood or crazy, you know, crazy shit.
8:01And that's what I remember. That's what I remember. I think one of the interesting things about that is the Marilyn Manson connection and the Black Dahlia and all of that. So Luke was, pardon me, obsessed with Manson and he's obsessed with the Black Dahlia paintings and he'd carried out a copycat murder. until you look at the evidence he had one Marlon Manson CD that was bought after Jodie was murdered because it had Jodie's favourite Manson track on it that's why he bought it it came with a bonus DVD which again was used against him and there was a calendar that somebody had given him that was in the bin, that was his connection to Manson there was nothing, no evidence ever that he knew anything about the Black Dahlia pictures that he'd ever seen them, that he'd ever been able to access them so this whole story about how he was obsessed with Manson and the Black Dahlia there's not a single bit of evidence to support it.
9:12What about people reading black and white sticks? Mud sticks? If you read that, eventually you're going to read that enough you're going to believe it And that's where we need a more accountable media. Because if people are going to write this rubbish and put it out there, knowing that people are going to believe it, I think it's worth remembering that one day this could be a member of their family that this stuff's getting written about and that people are believing. It's been a bugbear in mine, obviously, for all these years. How long was Luke seeing Jodie for? How long was the relationship going on for?
9:45I think they were just about three months. Still early? Sorry? Still early then? Still a fresh relationship? Were they friends before or did they meet at school? They met at school, yeah. They knew of each other prior to that and then they were introduced through a mutual friend and by all accounts just really, really enjoyed each other's company, enjoyed being together. How was Luke's upbringing? How was his upbringing as a kid? He's pretty normal upbringing. His mum and dad split up when he was 10, but on amicable terms. He lived in the sort of leafy suburban area, the slightly posher area around here.
10:28Went to the local high school. No issues in his childhood. There was a school report that he'd been pulled up for throwing a missile at another student and his mum was called into the school. it was a half Mars bar but again this was used after the event that's about I think the only thing in his in his not suspended no no dodgy behaviour no crazy stuff no he was doing well in all his classes he was in the top portion of all his classes so the evidence against Luke this episode is brought to you by ChatGPT hey it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast have you guys heard about ChatGPT work it's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects.
11:16And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have eczema. So I get how it can steal your time. But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about EBCLIS. EBCLIS Lubrikizumab LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies.
12:05EBCLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you are allergic to EBCLIS. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EpGliss. Before starting EpGliss, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Paid partnership with Lilly. Respect your time. Ask your doctor about EpGliss and visit epgliss.com or call 1-800-LILLY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. We had a witness that said they'd seen Luke and Jodie on the path at that time where she got murdered.
12:42Right This was supposedly an independent witness who was driving around a very sharp bend on the road and saw a girl standing at the entrance to the path and a guy, she reckoned about 10 to 20 yards in the path and it's just a tiny little lane So she clocks these two people driving around the sharp bend with two kids in the car and that was the story she then gives this description that's nothing like Luke or Jodie, absolutely nothing like them. And then the story changes and we end up with an identification. There are a couple of problems with this and I am not suggesting in any way that the witness herself was dishonest or trying to mislead.
13:32Her brother-in-law, we found out later, was in Jodie's grandmother's house the morning after Jodie was found. So Jodie was found around about midnight on June 30th and on the morning of July 1st this lady's brother-in-law was in the granny's house telling her about this sighting, telling the family about this sighting and giving them a description. He was then three days later in Jodie's family's house talking about this description and everything else. he was there when this lady gave her first and second statements so the idea, she was asked if she knew the Jones family and she said no but they never followed up on the brother-in-law and the closeness of the relationship with the brother-in-law to the victim's family so information was getting carried back and forward that can't not have influenced her recall.
14:36Similarly, when Luke's house was raided, he was taken for the Section 14 interview on the 14th of August, so six weeks after the murder. They took a Polaroid picture of him that morning and took it up to this lady and said, is that him? And the following morning, pictures of Luke started appearing in the media. These were the first pictures of Luke in the media. Now you can see how closely the two events would reinforce in her mind. But she said she never saw the guy's face. Why were they allowed to release photos? Nothing to stop them. There was nothing to stop them for age or because there was no conviction yet?
15:17There was no active proceedings. Age, it's not actually, or it wasn't unlawful to photograph under-16s. Has that changed now? I don't think so I think it's more frowned upon because I read stories that they can't show their identity because they're younger so yeah and there was DNA found at the body is there five pieces of DNA am I correct? there were five unidentified profiles either on the clothing around the body or near the crime scene so we had Jodie's sister's boyfriend's DNA a full DNA profile from her sister's boyfriend found on the t-shirt that it was that Jodie was wearing I'll come back to that there was a condom found within sort of 20 yards of the body they never managed to trace the guy at the time who'd left the condom there various other deposits that some of which are still unidentified today.
16:28The sister's boyfriend's DNA had never seen anything quite like this. They were waiting for the DNA results to come back to prove their main line of inquiry, which of course at the time was that Luke was the killer. And then the DNA came back with nothing of Luke at the scene and nothing of Jodie on Luke or in his house or anybody else. So they're kind of stuck here because the DNA has actually come back identifying another male that's not Luke. And essentially they handed him an innocent explanation. They went back and they said, is it possible that Jodie borrowed this T-shirt from her sister and that would explain how her sister's boyfriend's DNA got on it?
17:16Now, you would think under normal circumstances that would be the most bizarre thing to do. normally somebody's DNA turns up at the scene of a murder they've got some explaining to do that you're a suspect they came up with this borrowed t-shirt story to explain away the DNA on the t-shirt so there was no DNA, Luke's DNA there was Luke with Jodie that day he was with her in school up to lunchtime but according to Jodie's mum she got changed when she came in after school before she went back out again. Because there's obviously the papers have written a lot of weird stuff about Luke saying he had an appropriate relationship with his mum, they slept in the same bed stuff like that.
18:08What's the story behind that? That was, again these are the sort of things that were getting leaked either to the media or to the local community. So there was a story that the police had arrived and found Luke and Corrine sleeping in the same bedroom. Now, this was just after the Sky interview, which was a bit of a trick in itself. Sky had asked if they could interview Luke because he'd been asked to keep away from Jodie's funeral by Jodie's family. So Sky had asked if they could come and film the tribute that Luke and Corrine were having at home because he couldn't go to the funeral. Corrine has always well both Corrine and Luke have always maintained that they were promised that footage would not go out that day on the day of the funeral and Sky put it out on the day of the funeral so Corrine has an arm a protective arm round Luke's shoulder while he's being asked questions by a TV reporter that a police officer would have had to ask under caution and from this arm round the shoulder and this rumour about them sleeping in the same bedroom came the story that there was an inappropriate relationship between mother and son.
19:26Now, just to keep things real, at the same time, exactly the same time, that this story about finding them sleeping in the same bedroom broke. And in actual fact, they were sleeping in the living room on separate couches because Luke was heavily medicated. He was heavily sedated. after Jodie's murder and his mum was frightened he would fall down the stairs which is why they just stayed on the ground floor. But at the same time, Jodie's brother was sleeping in his mum's bedroom for very similar reasons. So, you know, if nightmares are going to come calling, kids are desperately upset, where are they going to go for comfort?
20:10Their mum. They're only 14 as well, so... Yeah. But again, the papers write that stuff and people are just going to think, weird bastard, crazy, that's fucked up and automatically, you're just going to think guilty. There was boys on a moped around that area at that time as well. That's again one of the most bizarre aspects of this case. On the Friday night, so four days after Jodie's body was found, the police put out an appeal for two youths on a moped. they came forward one was spoken to on the Saturday one on the Sunday and they were eliminated from the inquiry by the Monday morning one of these boys was Jodie's cousin and the other was related slightly more distantly to Jodie's family they had come through a local tool hair business and up the path on their moped the moped was seen propped against the V-brake in the wall where Jodie was found behind the V-brake.
21:18Moped was there. They were nowhere to be seen at exactly the claimed time of the murder, which was 5.15. One of them claimed that they hadn't come forward, they hadn't come forward to the police earlier because Jodie's gran told them not to. I've never seen anything in all these years that says the police went back and said, this is what this guy's telling us. Is it true? Because if they'd all said, no, absolutely not, we said nothing of the sort, he would have been in the frame, surely. They also lied about the time they were on the path. They said they were there, I think it was about an hour earlier, than they were actually there.
21:58So in advance, they'd lied to remove themselves from the path at what later would become the exact time in the murder. And these guys weren't suspects. See if people have been lying, is that not contempt of court? Do they not get jailed for that? Well, no, they didn't lie in court. They lied to the police. When they first came forward, because they had to come forward because it had been all over the papers that they were looking for them, they lied then about the time. Now, the witnesses in the Tool Hire Place, there were, I think it was either five or seven witnesses in the Tool Hire Place. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT.
22:35Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro Plans. Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have eczema. So I get how it can steal your time. But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about eczema?
23:14Eczema, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies, eczema can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you are allergic to Epglyss. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems.
23:45You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Epglyss. Before starting Epglyss, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Paid partnership with Lilly. Respect your time. Ask your doctor about Epglyss and visit epglyss.com or call 1-800-LILLY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. They all told the police it was closing time. so around about 5 o 'clock these lads when they came forward gave a time 45 minutes to an hour earlier and walked out of the police station without that being checked it was weeks before the police realised that they'd lied about the time and had to get them back in and speak to them again but by then the entire investigation was focused on Luke How long was it after when Luke got a charge after the murder?
24:34How long? A few months? No, it was nine and a half months. Later, to get a charge? Yep. Because I know Luke, the dog, was it the dog that found the body or was it Luke that found the body? The dog alerted. So what happened? Jodie's mum texted Luke. It was a text for Jodie because Jodie's phone wasn't working right. Get yourself home now, that's you grounded for a fortnight. so Luke phoned her mum and said I haven't seen her all night, she never turned up earlier on bit of to and fro and and Luke said right I'll come up for the new backland up the path that she would have used and if I don't find her I'll come to the house and the adults can decide what happens next so he's left for the new backland what he didn't know was that three members of Jodie's family had left from Mayfield which is where we are now so the opposite end making the way towards the path as well they met Luke at the top of the path and then suggested a double check and they all went back down and the dog alerted just past his feebdick in the wall Luke went over shouted I think there's something here the sister's boyfriend went over and then the granny insisted on being helped over as well so the three of them went over found the body all came back over the wall Luke had already dialed 999 then the police called them back asking where they were but there was a real misunderstanding there because the police seemed to be of the opinion that Luke was the only person out searching from that they then drew the conclusion that Luke and Luke alone had found the body and that the three family members had arrived after Luke found the body which that's not what happened and it's really difficult to understand how they came to that conclusion in the first place when they were called out for the missing person report when Jodie was reported missing they left her mum's house on the impression that Jodie had left with Luke at tea time from her own house that Luke was the only one out searching and that Luke was coming up the path on his bike.
27:08Well, he was coming up the path with his dog. He wasn't the only one out searching and he certainly did not leave Jodie's house with it at tea time. But you can understand why the police would be thinking, hang on, he left it at tea time and now he's saying he hasn't seen her. Come on. And it doesn't look good that he has found the body either. because if nobody can if everybody's searching and the person who's a potential suspect finds the body then all the everything doesn't matter what kind of evidence you've got it kind of leads to how does he know and then the questions marks start arising you could turn that round though because I said about the sister's boyfriend's DNA on the t-shirt Luke had come up the path and checked it and it was the family search trio one of which was the sister's boyfriend that suggested to go back down.
27:56So equally, the same... It's one of the things about this case is that there are so many people that exactly the same arguments that are made to say it made Luke look bad could be used against other people. So what evidence was there then against Luke that got him a conviction? What was the evidence?
28:19Well, there's no DNA. the eyewitness testimonies have been absolutely trashed there were three planks his alibi they said his brother couldn't support his alibi his mum and his brother had covered up for him the eyewitnesses had positively identified him and I forgot what the third one was now what was his alibi? that he was at home cooking dinner and his brother was there as well? no his brother was working Luke made the dinner for his mum and his brother because he was first in from school can he back that alibi up other than his mum and his brother to an extent yes because phone calls were made from and received on the landline and we can prove for certain where his mother was and it was not at home and we can prove for certain where his brother was and it was not at home so somebody had to be in the house making calls and receiving calls on that landline.
29:25So somebody was, both were at work while he was making phone calls to them in the house? Yeah, his brother called him to say he was going to be late home for his tea and Luke called his mum at work to say what did she want him to put on for dinner. Was the other brother ever a suspect? Not to my knowledge. How many suspects were there? One. Just the one? Even with other DNA there? Yes. There was four unidentified? Yeah, there was only ever one suspect. One of the other DNA profiles was identified three years later, 2006.
30:02The guy's DNA was run through the database for another matter. and his story was that he went down the path that night forgive me, he went down the path that night to masturbate because he didn't have any privacy because he shared his room with his brother so he went down, gave an estimate of the distance he went down behind the wall, did what he did discarded the condom, came back up again and that was the end of it if that account was correct He reckoned it was between 8 and 9 o 'clock at night and bear in mind the time of death was claimed to be 5.15. If that was correct, it was broad daylight till about half past 10 that night.
30:46He would have had to virtually step over the body on the way down and on the way back. But because it was three years later, there was nothing done about it because the case was closed because Luke Mitchell had been convicted and what's quite terrifying is excuse me, this guy lived in a row of houses that look out onto the path and the police search parameters like door-to-door parameters stopped one door away from where this guy lived but they were in his house for a completely different matter, two of his brothers had found a hoodie brought to the attention of police and they still didn't ask about other males in the house or where they've been on it, nothing.
31:36But for somebody to do the crime as well and not leave any DNA, they're obviously they're quite they're quite clued up. So for somebody to not have any DNA doing a murder but then have a fucking condom do you know what I mean? To do that it would kind of not make sense for me. Do you know what I mean? If they have no DNA on the body and then will basically play with yourself and masturbate into a condom. Well, that's the thing, you see, we don't know if any of the other... Was there any Jodie's DNA rent on the condom? They messed up the swabbing on the outer condom. So they couldn't get results for that.
32:25A number of the DNA profiles on the body and the clothing were only partial profiles so they couldn't get full matches to them. So it's at least a possibility that there is other DNA there that would match to other people. But because the police contaminated the crime scene terribly, really, really badly, a lot of the potential DNA, if you like, was contaminated. but in terms of DNA that could be attributed to Luke because the number of markers that they did get none of these samples they either had DNA that was not in Luke's profile or they had DNA that was common to I don't know 50 % of males so could have been in any male's profile So the eye detector in prison how did that come about?
33:26because Luke, I know he's sitting with his eyes closed, doing the full, because people think he's got his eyes closed, he's concentrating, and if you do a murder and you believe it, that long you convince yourself that you've actually not done it. How did the lie detector become about, and why did the prison let that happen? Because there's footage on YouTube. Yes. We'll put it at the end of this podcast of Luke actually getting the lie detector. How did that become about? Because I've never seen that before. We'd talked about it for a long time. Luke had always wanted to do a lie detector. So had Corrie.
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33:56and they were just always told it's not admissible as evidence. And they didn't really want to do it for evidence. They knew it was never going to get in as evidence. They wanted to show that they were telling the truth. So it took about a year going back and forward with the prison to get... This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports.
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35:15Agreement that we could do it. So the guy came up, a guy called Terry Mullins, came up from London. and we were allowed into the prison and then we were taken through to basically just a goldfish bowl. Yeah, glass sided. And when we got in there, Terry got all the stuff set up and there were prison officers walking past outside. Everybody obviously was dead curious and people pulling faces and just trying to put them off really. So it was Terry that said to him, just shut your eyes. ignore them because I don't want you getting distracted by what's going on outside and that's why he closed his eyes and what was the questions that got asked Luke was asked did he know for certain where Jodie's body would be found or where Jodie's body was, did he stab Jodie or harm Jodie in any way and
36:26I've forgotten what the third question was. So the first one, did they know the body was he says no? He said no. And that was correct? Absolutely. And did they stab her and he says no and that was correct? And the other one was about harming her as well. What about for the questions for Corrine? Corrine was asked if she had ever disposed of any clothing or any other evidence belonging to Luke she was asked if she'd lied to cover up for him and again I've forgotten what the third one was it was in the house at the time I think it was in the house yeah at the time where was it at the time that's yeah and she passed all three questions because it's brought a lot of misery there's one family devastated who will die with that pain and we spoke about that earlier it's they're going to have to live with that but again for Corrine she's had her caravans burnt down she's she's had a break through the back windscreen of her car she's people have mentally and physically tortured her she's been fighting for her son's freedom for 16 years and it's only really yourself and her it's been trying to get shed some light on this and try to get a retrial because Luke's been trying to get a retrial for well I think that's the main thing here if the authorities have got nothing to hide if they're absolutely convinced Luke Mitchell's Jodie's murderer let's just see all the evidence with Hillsborough they had an independent panel who were allowed to go in and just look at everything and review it let's see that if the evidence is there so why is there not been a retrial why have they kept knocking it back to retry the case and do you think they've made a mistake or do you think because if they know if that comes out that he's innocent that's just going to cause a shitstorm for the police everybody again I'm not professional I'm just here to shed some light on it there's a possibility he could be innocent there's a possibility when two people pass a lie detector but again I'm not professional in this field I'm just here to shed light on it but when you're looking when you actually look into it to see there was no DNA there was passing two eye detectors and he's always protested his innocence he hasn't locked himself away and put himself in protection he's took it in the chin and he's got some amount of abuse in prison and if people think that's a crime then you would act like that if you think someone's murdered a 14 year old kid because that crime alone and I've got kids, you've got kids.
39:17Yeah. And that's one of the things I've been saying for 16 years, you know, I don't do any of this to, I know there's no avoiding causing more pain for Jodie's family by bringing this up. I know that, but that's not why I do it. I'm always very, very mindful as a mum of girls. How have you been treated? because it's a small area. It's a small area. Everybody talks. How have you been treated by working on this case and trying to bring it to light and trying to get Luke Mitchell free? How have you been treated? Initially, it was not great. I've been spat on. I've been pushed off the pavement in front of cars.
40:04I've had death threats. The police themselves would stop me in the car at every opportunity they got. I never used public transport round about here. I'd have to check the headlines to see if it was safe to go into the local shop. That was the extent of the feeling up here. And I totally understand it. I understand they think, or back then they thought I was supporting a monster, but my question has always been, why would they think I would do that? I had two teenage girls in this area. if there was the tiniest doubt in my mind that it was Luke Mitchell who did to Jodie what was done to her why on earth would I be saying we need this guy back in our community he needs to be set free that would be insanity when was the last time you spoke to Luke?
41:01about, what, 2014 and how is he still trying to get a new day at your retrial? because I believe he said he's not going to leave prison unless he's a free man. He will protest his innocence to the end. He will never say he did it just to get out or just to get better treatment, never. Have they offered him that yet to admit the crime to let him go? They push every year for it, don't they? Every review. You've not addressed your offending behaviour because I've got no offending behaviour to address. And round it goes. did you think there was any other suspects that could potentially have done the crime yeah how many names no names but how many people allegedly that you could think there were certainly three three other suspects three that I would have said had I been a police officer which I'm not looking at the case and I said we need to look at him we definitely need to look at him and we better get him in and see where he was and what he was doing and where he's been since that would have been those three in particular Do you ever question yourself and think what if you're wrong Absolutely and think why the fuck am I going through this everyday why am I putting myself through this tournament I don't think you can do this work if you don't ask that question every day?
42:36What if I'm wrong? What if I've missed something? You know, what if, I don't know, what if there's something that they know about that we don't? That's why I'm saying, if we go for a review and everything's on the table, then everybody knows for sure, me included. Because it's... I've gone through everything that's been available to the defence I've also spoken to people who were never spoken to by the defence by the prosecution back at the time or people who were bullied and harassed at the time who are adults now who've contacted me and said listen I want to tell you this is how we were treated to get us to say what they wanted us to say so in terms of the overview of the evidence and the circumstances and everything else yeah, for what we've been allowed access to I would say there's no doubt that Luke did not do this, but there's always going to be at the back of your mind, what if they've got this they would have used it, clearly there's always going to be, I see the doubt anything you do in life, there's always going to be I see the doubt, but you received files with information on it?
43:55I got all the case files and that was really when the whole thing for me started to come down like a house of cards. There was so much in there. Stocky Man. Now this guy was seen following Jodie the night she was murdered around about five o 'clock and there were two independent witnesses to Stocky Man. He was never traced apparently and he was kind of just dropped quietly from the investigation because obviously he couldn't have been Luke. So, yeah, they just didn't go after him. 2014, 11 years after the murder, we find out he was identified at the time. Was it questioned? No. No. After the identification, it was just filed.
44:49So why would they not follow up this evidence in these suspects? Was it a case of, before it was looked, they had enough evidence to say that there was eyewitnesses there and there was witnesses to say that they'd seen them at that time that they didn't even think about anybody else? Or is it a case of somebody covering something up? This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports.
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46:49I think they well to put it bluntly they screwed up from the off literally from the minute Jodie was reported missing it was one blunder after another after another they contaminated the crime scene they let the other three How did they contaminate the crime scene? Well they just climbed over the wall and traipsed around it and gathered up clothes Would that not though if Luke had evidence that could have maybe trampled his evidence as well? It could have done but it would have been interesting that it managed to like lose Luke's evidence but leave other people's there They gathered up Jodie's clothes before the forensics people got there.
47:32They rolled the body onto a plastic sheet before the forensics people got there. They cut down overhanging branches so that the videographer could get a better look before forensics got there. That's just from the beginning. They were all climbing over the wall at the V point, which you'd have thought would have been of significance. They let the remainder of the other three members of the search party go and mingle with other members of the family, they took their phones with them, they didn't get their phones, they didn't take statements from them, they didn't get their clothes for forensic testing.
48:06It was it was just a shambles from the off. And I think the problem there was, once they realised what a shambles it was, they also realised there was no going back and undoing that. How could they fix the mess they'd made in the first six hours or so? What's the story about the Parker jacket? Oh, it's a kind of weird one. The claim was that Corrine burned a parka jacket that Luke had been wearing when he committed the murder in a log burner in her back garden. So presumably to destroy evidence. Corrine's and Luke's take on it is that Luke didn't have a parka jacket prior to the murder. the police took all of his clothes on the 4th of July apart from what he was standing in on the 4th of July in the first raid so Corrine took him clothes shopping on the Wednesday because they had nothing to wear and the parka jacket was bought that day and she handed the receipt to the police because they asked for it so this whole thing about they were looking for a missing parka jacket but Corrine had bought the parka jacket as a replacement for the missing parka jacket which again, why would you?
49:32If you knew your son had murdered somebody in a parka jacket would you stick him back in a parka jacket? Anyway they came and they took all the ash from the log burner in the back garden, which was a wee thing that size took all the ash from it, forensically tested all the bricks and everything, nothing no evidence of any clothing burnt there. No opportunity for her to dispose of ash because the family liaison officer was there from day one so there was no chance to get rid of the ash, had she burned clothing there and then all this nonsense about people seeing Luke or being claimed to have seen Luke in a parka jacket used as witness statements yeah that photograph that I was talking about the day after he was taken in on the 14th of August so six weeks after the murder the first photograph to appear in the papers was of Luke in a parka jacket and there were dozens of them after that always in the parka jacket so if you ask anybody in this area have you ever seen Luke Mitchell in a parka jacket yeah most of Scotland had the question would be what reason would you have to remember if you knew him, obviously we didn't know so it would have to be afterwards what reason would you have had to remember if he had a parka jacket prior to that and the giveaway on that is they got a witness who did know Luke brought him in to give evidence against Luke and he said he saw him in a local shop wearing said parka jacket and he was asked what made him notice it was a parka jacket and the guy said oh well it was a murder and everything yeah so it must have been after the murder then that's the level of what they were calling evidence they were relying on was there many witnesses against Luke in the whole case was there many witnesses up to speak against him how many witnesses did he have on his side none no his mum and his brother well his mum and his brother were charged with preventing the course of justice and those charges were only dropped when they were on the stand so they wouldn't allow there were a number of witnesses that the defence wanted to call and they were disallowed for one reason or another I can't remember what the expert oh the expert on recall speaking in particular about the lady who very clearly would have been be an influence with stories going back and forward with such close proximity they wouldn't allow him to give evidence because he hadn't examined the lady in question so the fact that we know psychologists know that the impact on recall of additional information that wasn't enough so that was disallowed.
52:47So see the first nine months before he got his sentence, he got charged. Were you around then? Or was it after when he went to prison? No, I was involved from September 2003, so 10 weeks after the murder. And that's when you got involved. How was Luke's mindset then, after the murder, till court? Absolutely convinced. They would realise they were going after the wrong guy, get their act together and actually go and find the person that did this absolutely convinced was he cooperating with the police and statements and giving everything he can to to keep obviously giving his statements and give them information what they can yep, the whole family were the whole family were, the liaison officer was in the house from the 1st of July to the 13th of August because the second raid was the 14th and there's a bit of the interview in the 14th where Luke and his mum are saying to the police officer why didn't Michelle tell us this was going to happen?
54:02We thought that's what she was there to do. We thought she was there to keep us up to date with developments. So right up to that point they're trusting this liaison officer is there to guide them and help them when in actual fact all she was doing was trying to gather again i i'm reluctant to call it evidence she was looking for pieces of information that could be twisted to make the family look crazy weird or yeah did luke go back to school or anything no he was banned from he did actually go back for one day initially he was banned from returning to school and of course we did the big media fanfare about it being for safety initially, for the safety of the pupils, and then realising what they'd done because they hadn't been charged with anything.
54:51Oh, for everybody's safety, speaking to everybody about appropriate behaviour, all this nonsense. They let him go back, and Corrine got a call from Luke to say he was being kept isolated in a classroom by himself. wasn't being taught with the other kids, wasn't being allowed to mix with the other kids, was basically just being kept in a room in his own. So she went, took him out of school. There was clearly words. And after that, he was tutored privately because they wouldn't have him back in school. It is a weird situation because it's the it's the eye detectors thing it kind of gets me and I can't no DNA.
55:43Was there ever a murder waiting found? No. No. So what's the plan? What's the outcome for you now to get this case? Are you going to keep working on this case until you try and get Luke a retrial? Do you get him free? Is there a time you feel like giving up? Many, many have been the times that I've felt like giving up. The reason I put the book out is if I were forced to give up. So if anything happened to me, I don't think there's anybody else in Scotland got the level of knowledge of the case that I've got. And the idea was put everything I know in there. Star Wars The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+.
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58:18There was a lot of witnesses that never get spoken to. What else were in the case files that you think were, didn't sit right? Why was that not used in court? Why was this covered up? Oh, there was so much stuff.
58:35Well, for example, the boys on the moped saying that the granny told them not to go to the police. The thing about the eyewitness and the brother-in-law. The change in the family stories, Jodie's family stories. So the three members of the search trio on the path all said for a month in all those statements for a full month that the dog reacted at the wall and Luke doubled back and went through the V break the sister's boyfriend said as an example it's a big dog, it's an Alsatian when it was standing up against the V his head was higher than the bottom of the V so that's quite a quite a vivid description by the time they got to trial the statement started to change after the first month and by the time they got to trial the dog didn't react at all Luke just was walking down the path and popped himself over the ball so then we get the case paper and there's all these statements where the family are saying no, you know, the dog started going nuts and Luke went over and they said that he didn't react he showed no emotion and yet in the statements Dodie's sister's saying I could tell by the panic in his voice that it was something bad.
59:58You know, his eyes were wider than normal, looked like he was in total shock. It's all in there. So could you, in a retrial, could those old statements get used? Or is it a touchy subject? It's difficult because I didn't know when I started this, the concept of statements being adopted. So unless you agree when you're giving your evidence that what's in the statement's correct, the statement can be allowed to be. Because you can't change your statement. Maybe you're in shock or you didn't know what to say. People do change their statements all the time. When can it not be changed, a statement?
1:00:34I don't think there's ever a time that a statement can be changed. The difficulty is if you've said something in a statement and it's put to you on the stand, did you say this? And you say, oh, that's not what I meant, and you refuse to accept it. But you can, so the first statement you can use in court. Yes. So those statements that you're talking about, when they were interviewing the witnesses, they were never used, the first statements? No. No, the defence did try to, did try to bring them up and say, but you said for the first month, you were telling the same story as he is. Do you think they were just wanting then a conviction?
1:01:13Obviously, Jodie Jones' family were wanting a conviction, but then the police, do you think that people were getting, they started in their own mind that Luke was, because the police were after him from the get-go. Yes. His name was, it was fired about from as soon as it happened, yes. So, again, people looking into that case are going to think automatically he's guilty. Yes. So, how do you go further from this now? What's the plans for you now in Luke's case? Because if he was to get a retrial, you're talking maybe another three, four years, has he got a release date yet? No, he got a minimum 20 years.
1:01:52But he won't be eligible for parole because he won't address offending behaviour, he won't participate in any of the training courses or anything because he didn't do it and from my experience of other cases, that being the case he won't progress so the 20 year date will come and go and however many years after that will come and go if you go and get anger management and get your worries at high risk to work on yourself but if he's adamant that it wasn't him then he could have been there for a long time until this eventually gets a retrial how can people buy your book? how can people get a hold of your book?
1:02:33it's on Amazon it's Innocence Betrayed Innocence Betrayed and it's available on Amazon and it really does I think the discovery that what's allowed to pass as justice and what's allowed to pass as evidence and what's allowed to pass is, you know, fairness in our courts is so poor. I'd never have believed it. I would never have believed that they can get away with the sort of things they get away with until I saw it with my own eyes. And I'm not asking anybody to take my word for it. I'm not. Just have an open mind. The information's there. Go have a look. See how you feel about what you've been told by the media for all these years.
1:03:24compared to what they actually knew. Not necessarily the media, but what the authorities actually knew, the information they actually had. Because it's one of these things that kind of makes me laugh. People go, ah, you're only telling one side of the story. Yeah. And what do you think mainstream media has been doing for the last 16 years? I always believe there's three sides to a story, and I say that earlier. There's always both sides, and then there's the truth. So for me personally, it's to have an open opinion of every situation. and the reason why is because again Joe Steele, 18 years he'd done he'd done 18 years the man and he was innocent and everybody his family and stuff but if you read that in the papers then what you read in the papers Monsters, Ice Cream Wars then it's just you're in your mind that he's guilty so it's to keep an open mind and think wait a minute there's a possibility everybody in prison says they're guilty, they're innocent but Joe says in my podcast as well if you're really innocent you don't give up yeah some people get their sentences like three four you're down the line they've kind of adapted they've accepted and they don't want to fight no more if you're innocent you don't want to stop him looks one of those boys who don't want to stop him he wants to keep fighting for his innocence again i don't know the full just of the case but to shed some light on it and maybe have an open up people have an open opinion maybe change their opinion and other people can look into it and maybe get a retrial but again it's going to dig up a lot of because there's never going to be closure for the Jones family and I understand and for me to do this is I'm going to get a lot of backlash but for me to be honest with myself and if somebody's there's a possibility somebody's innocent fuck it I'm a man I'm not a coward I'm not going to shy away I'm going to bring it to light and maybe there is a miscarriage of justice there there is a lack of evidence maybe people's tampered with evidence maybe the traffic I just don't for me it's just to bring it to the surface and yeah that's you know that really is for nearly 16 years that's that's all I've been asking is instead of going with this screeching media coverage have a look have a look at what else is there and ask yourself why did I never know that why have I never heard that in 16 years because if I was making it up I'm sure I'd have been sued by now Has nobody ever done that?
1:05:56Wanted to do an interview with you Sandra? Or to tell your story and get it out of like mainstream media daily record The Evening News way back in 2007 did an interview that was when I'd written the first book there have been there have been approaches and they've all dropped out at the last minute and I don't know if that's just because they don't want this case getting dug up again, they don't there's too much there's too much behind the scenes that they don't want coming out now and it's easier just to ignore it it's easier just to make it go away than to risk having somebody like me saying go have a look.
1:06:46Yeah but if you keep chatting the door loud enough then eventually it will open so Sandra for coming on is there anything you want to finish by is there anything you say before we finish up here that people can look into no I think just like you said have an open mind, go back look at what you were fed over all those years and go back and ask yourself what if that was me what if they were saying all that stuff about me or about my son or about my brother or whatever what would you do how would you stop them how do you deal with that because the truth is it could happen to anybody of course it could sorry before we finish up what was the one was Luke told not to cry when he got convicted he was told to show no emotion who says that whatsoever his legal team why I think there's the judges say ahead of, um...
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1:08:44You sadistic pig! The Paper. New season streaming September 9th, only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to laugh. At ZocDoc, we know you care about your health. You wouldn't do that early morning cardio if you didn't. So the fact that your annual physical is overdue just shows how hard it can be to get seen by a doctor. Sorry, that doctor's not in network. Press 1 for more options. You've reached us outside normal business hours. The next availability is in three months. But ZocDoc makes finding the right doctor easy. Download the app and search by specialty, insurance and availability. Read real patient reviews, then book instantly.
1:09:19ZocDoc, ready to be seen? Verdicts in big cases like that. No unseemly behaviour, you know. Everybody's to be... Quiet. Yeah. But he said himself for years, he was damned if he did, damned if he didn't. If he cried, it would be in crocodile tears. Yeah, so people are going to judge. People already had their opinion, including myself. Yeah. I had my opinion and I was only a young boy, but I do remember the headlines and stuff and that does stick and I still remember it to this day. But again, it's to have a note in mind that there is always possibilities that people are innocent, but there's also possibilities that they could also be guilty.
1:09:56So for coming on today, Sandra, and telling your story, I really appreciate it and I wish you all the best for the future. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Thank you.
From the publisher
The Luke Mitchell Murder Case (Part 1) Criminologist Sandra Lean
In this episode, I sit down with Sandra Lean — author, researcher, and one of the most prominent advocates for Luke Mitchell — to discuss her unwavering belief in his innocence. Sandra shares what first drew her to the case, the years of research she has undertaken, and the questions she believes remain unanswered.
You can contact James on his social media platforms.
http://instagram.com/jamesenglish2https://x.com/jamesenglish0
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61577060205838
https://www.tiktok.com/@jamesenglishpodcast?_t=ZN-8z0ZI6MBb9C&_r=1
https://open.spotify.com/show/4PIErllOO06wFHyX4LkGLH?si=c36a8b3f513d4316
https://itunes.apple.com
We explore the complexities of the investigation, the role of media narratives, and the emotional and personal toll that long-term involvement in such a controversial case can bring. Sandra also reflects on why she continues to speak out and what she hopes listeners will take away from her work.
This conversation offers a thought-provoking perspective on justice, belief, and the power of persistence, inviting listeners to consider the case from a different point of view.