The Luke Mitchell Murder Case (Part 3) Luke and His Mum Pass Polygraph Test

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1:15We're on. Today's guest, we've got Terry Murlins. Terry, how are we? Well, very well, thank you. First of all, thanks for coming on the show, Terry. No problem. You're one of the leading polygraph experts in the UK. one of the reasons why you're on the show today is because you're the man who gave Luke Mitchell and his mum the polygraph test which both passed with flying colours but there's also a lot of sceptics asking questions why the courts can't use them and you can't release people from prison you can lie on them and believe if you're that much a sociopath and believe your own lies you can trick them so today's to kind of give your side of things and let you have your say so So first of all, Terry, how did that all begin for you?

1:58How did you get into being one of the leading experts in the UK? I don't actually like the word expert, to be perfectly fair, because I think we're always learning. So you can't be at the top of the game. You have to do updated training. And obviously, I was one of the original three people in the UK to be trained in America with polygraph. So it's just through my experience of 14 years that I'm probably more well-known. and I do a lot of high profile cases. When, who came to you first for, to do the polygraph with Luke Mitchell? It was the, I think it was the Daily Mail, a newspaper in Scotland that contacted me and they asked me if I would be prepared to test Corrine Mitchell over the issue of her son.

2:48At that point, I had no knowledge or didn't, I had obviously seen it on the TV at some point, but I didn't have any other knowledge of that. And I agreed that I would test virtually anybody under the right conditions to see if they've... Yeah, because it's such a high-profile case. Luke Mitchell has been protesting his innocence for the last 16 years. And the reason why I've been shedding light on it is because one of the reasons is the polygraph test. You ask Luke Mitchell three questions. you also ask him each question three times and you did the same with his mum and they both passed some people are calling Luke a sociopath and they say the lie detectors can be cheated guys like Ted Bundy's name is getting through into the mix because he'd passed a lie detector can you explain that a bit?

3:41Well obviously I can't explain the whole detail of people like Ted Bundy but Ted Bundy was a sociopath, psychologically unbalanced and in factual he should never have been tested we we have to be very careful about who we test and if somebody has psychological issues that they're sociopathic psychologically unbalanced split personalities we cannot test them because who are you testing you're not testing a if you like the norm of a person so he was a diagnosed sociopath ted bundy well he's been diagnosed with having many split personalities he's got different personalities in the way he's the way his mind works and he cannot be possibly be of a normal sense in his head because of some of the you know the crimes that he's committed and like not sure he wasn't diagnosed with any mental health or social path or he wasn't he was fine to do one of the one of the first tests that one of the first requirements for myself when I go into a place like a prison or somebody who is on a high profile test is I want to know especially if they're in prison have they gone through any psychological evaluations and if they are then deemed to have psychological problems then I refuse the test because you cannot test them.

5:00When Luke was doing his test he had his eyes closed a lot of people are saying he had his eyes closed because he was concentrating to fail the test why was he sitting with his eyes closed? Well considering that during his test there was myself, Luke, his paralegal and one guard standing out behind myself, Luke was actually looking directly at that person who was actually from Luke's perspective they were pulling faces at him. So I suggested to him that he closed his eyes which is in actual fact a good thing to do anyway on a polygraph test. so when before you ask the serious questions do you ask shorter questions like because Corrine said are you sitting on a chair just to kind of make things accurate how we ask 11 questions um so you're asking three relevant questions that was pertinent to the issue that he had then we asked three comparison questions which are we call them probable lies we have a different system as well now called directed lie but at that time I used a probable lie so I asked him questions that he could have failed but we don't score then he's getting asked some known truths like are you sitting in a chair are you know is your name Luke that type of question they just give us an average baseline and then there are two irrelevant questions which are the sink it's just questions that we ask to introduce the whole issue to it.

6:34How accurate is a polygraph test? Well under the American Polygraph Association metadata information they put their polygraph tests between 90 to 95 percent. It all depends on circumstances, it will depend on the person, it depends on the type of questions. Accuracy is measured really if the test is conducted correctly asking direct specific questions that are pertinent to that case how easy is it to um basically lie to how basically how hard is it for a liar to pass a lie detector well in my opinion you being a professional examiner you cannot pass the test if you are of sound mind then you cannot pass the test by lying on the test we have certain criteria and And there are certain conditions which they have to abide by.

7:32One will be like movement. It's one of our biggest enemies. So I use a movement sensor, which they sit on. There are also hand pads, feet pads, they can do. I didn't have those during that time, but they're not requirement anyway. But the seat pad is an absolute requirement to have. Yeah, because I never used to have the seat pad. Because I put a clip-up of Luke's polygraph test on my Twitter. one of the questions you asked was did he stab Jodie Jones which he'd said no which he passed and people had this obviously you're going to get people who are both sides believe in it don't believe in it one of the questions was how do you stop a subject from flexing an anal sphincter what is the anal sphincter well it's a muscle in in the anus which we would say that don't squeeze your bottom together um what what it comes down to is it isn't just about that the sphincter muscle um in old in the older analog instruments there was no movement sensors so some people would try and train themselves on them where the the observer the examiner had to observe them very carefully um to make sure that they were not moving twitching moving fingers arms muscles um but it was very difficult because in an analog instrument you are constantly making changes on the instrument itself and it's all manual you're using a pencil you're marking the charts you're marking everything so it was quite a uh workload um with an with a analog instrument yeah because you've got the thing for the seat now that you showed me earlier this is all computerized polygraph now so this pad the pad that you see in front of you is a typical type of movement sensor that you would sit on what it comes down to for me i give instructions to each person i want you to sit perfectly still once the blood pressure cuff is inflated sit perfectly still and do not move it's very difficult many people complain and say i can't sit still and then i give them a choice you can either sit still or if you cannot sit still there's no point in doing the test yeah so court cases you can't use like polygraph tests in court do you think there'll be anything in the future that maybe this can start happening the reasons that i've been given from home office officials over many years was we've we've been trying to get recognized more in courts etc is that it is subjective the results are subjective by each examiner they can be quality controlled by other examiners by government examiners if they wish to to go down that route this is the reason the main reason that they give for not using it it shouldn't be used as an absolute it should be used as a tool so if you have four suspects and you polygraph them all and two pass and two fail, then use the ones that fail that test to continue with a thorough investigation.

10:41Courts really shouldn't be that afraid of it because in a lot of cases, and one in question is Luke's, there is no evidence that Luke committed this crime. As far as I've seen, nobody has produced a single piece of evidence to me to say that Luke was involved in the murder of Jodie Jones. Could Luke have trained himself to pass this test? Well, there are lots of people that say that you can meditate. When you ask a question on the test, they have to answer immediately. They have been through the question several times because there's no secrets or surprises. So they have to answer the questions immediately.

11:20Now, if somebody is meditating, somebody is thinking, lots of people tell me that if I think bad thoughts, if I think of something more horrific than what I'm being asked questions about, that will override the function of the test. But what I say to them is, if you can do that, you can possibly be thinking of something, listen to what I'm asking you and answer immediately, then there's something completely wrong because it doesn't work like that. You have to answer immediately on the test. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work?

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12:55Two people to be lying on the same case and both passing. What's the odds or the chances of that happening? Well, that is depending. Is that using two separate examiners? Yeah, no, the same as yourself having coring and having Luke on the polygraph. If both were lying and both passing, how big a percentage would that be for both? I wouldn't even like to calculate that possibility. Because I take each case as it comes. I have nothing to gain from passing somebody, especially for such a horrific murder. I'm horrified at what happened. And that could be my family. That could be my friend's family.

13:38Could be anybody there. So it's not for me to be in judgment of whether that person, I want to get that person off because they seem a nice person. I don't have a figure to give you about two people passing or failing a test without good reason. So from your own point of view for Luke passing, do you think he killed Jodie Jones? Absolutely not. And Corrine Mitchell, do you feel as if she was involved in some way from this case to help her son? Absolutely not. because again I'm always trying to sit on the fence with this because it's such a touchy subject and um but for this was one of the reasons because of the polygraph results have you ever made a mistake not to my knowledge um I've not been sued and I've been doing this for 14 years I've not been sued no one's no one's challenged me to take me to court or any other reason usually when a person fails a test we do um what i do a post-test interview with that person because if you can then get a confession from that person and it is an interview by the way it's not an interrogation but um that will be standard practice in every single fail that somebody has and you've been into prisons before and interviewed paedophiles and murderers before yes i have is this just in england uh no i've done this in scotland and wales and wales because it's high profile cases also and when people get if people fail what do they do with their results?

15:18Within a prison? Yeah. That's entirely up to that person they do sign a consent form now when they're incarcerated then I often get them most times I get that person to give me consent to give one of their family, friends a lawyer or somebody else that information because they shouldn't be able to hide that information. Because for paedophiles, we spoke earlier, and some of the polygraph tests work for them, getting released from prison, is that correct? No, they don't take a polygraph test to get out of prison. Under the National Offender Management Scheme, where they do PSOT testing, the person is going to be released anyway, and that goes through obviously for their with their probation they are usually just tested on their license conditions so once they come out of prison they have a set of license agreements that they've arranged with it and they will be tested on those alone they're not being tested on the original crime that's already been judged and they've already been sentenced for that so they get tested for the stuff that they're on license for yes and that might be about you you know using internet might be about using contacting people around schools yeah being around schools but contacting other people um who may also be into paedophilia etc etc and if they fail that do they go back to prison i believe that on the the rules change slightly all the time but i believe that they have to fail too and then they could most likely go back to prison.

16:56So why does that help those cases but yet not others? That's a question I'm baffled with myself because it's it's I wouldn't say it's a double standard what I would say is if you're able to return a prisoner back to prison for failing their licence conditions, which they could do if even drink drivers. It can be for anything, but particularly with polygraph. I think that the police should be allowed to use them for investigative purposes, and I think that would be a great tool for them to use, and it would save a great deal of time, money and effort. Is the polygraph, are they progressing more as well, getting higher percentages, becoming more accurate?

17:43Not particularly. the accuracy is already very high I mean we get a lot of people a lot of clients say this is 100 % well the only thing that's 100 % is that we're all going to die one day it used to be death and taxes but a lot of people evade taxes as well today but I think the accuracy is as high as it can be in lots of terms see for the privacy in Luke's case as well in the prison should have got more privacy when they've done the polygraph test? The issue with, it's done in a legal room, so it's not done in open visiting rooms. And there was glass panels around this room also? No, there was only Luke, there was no glass panels at the side that people were in, it was only the viewing thing, which is a good thing, you need a guard, I mean nobody knows what a prisoner, not talking about Luke, a prisoner in particular may do or not do, especially when they're given the information from myself because I do tell them their result because that's a requirement for me.

18:53But it wasn't really for that particular person to be making faces at Luke to cause any problems. Do you do the... Excuse me. That's okay. Do you do... How quickly do you get your results? You can have the results within 10, 15 minutes. You're scoring the entire time you're there. I also review the charts several times before I proffer the result to the person. So what is wired up then when you're doing the polygraph? Is it heart rate, sweat? You're using a blood pressure cuff. And at that time, you can use an arm cuff, which is a simple cuff that the doctor uses. but back in 2012 Lafayette also brought out a thumb cuff which is less pressure on the body and it takes away a lot of the stress from the arm and it was perfectly okay to use.

19:51It was later I think it was around 2015 that it was recommended that we don't just use that on its own but it's all about the tracing at the end of the day. Excuse me. if you've got a good tracing from the blood pressure then there's no reason why you shouldn't use it but that's that's measuring relative blood pressure and pulse rate and blood volume and then we use two pneumographs which are convoluted pieces of tubing that go across the chest for the thoracic breathing and one across the stomach and that's measuring from the diaphragm they just the convoluted tubing so as you breathe in and out they move marginally it changes the pressure inside and the volume of air inside and gives you a reading for their respiration so if you lie does it pull out how does that what does every one of them trigger they all figure there is um two finger plates which will go on their two fingers of their right hand which are picking up electrodermal activity from the sweat plant um they're a very important part so they're all fairly weighted they're not equally weighted but you need to have all functions working to make sure that you're using how was Luke before he got his polygraph test I only met him I've only met Luke once and that was on the day we had a conversation for about an hour and I think it was about an hour and 10 minutes what I wanted I already had a big background about the case but I wanted to hear it from Luke's own perspective so he gave me a run-through of his day what was happening during that day and all of the events that run up to that day completely where he went out looking for him and he mentioned about his dog which was a hunting dog etc etc so he went through the entire day with me and then I obviously asked him questions whether he's involved or not.

21:51Can you look at people through body language also and think, just guessing who's guilty and who's not guilty? You should never even try to do that. I mean, you can use micro-expressions from the face. That's not my job to do that. That's for an investigation or just doing an investigative interview. You can use those tactics. But that way, if you're making an assessment on the person, then you're now corrupting your results that you've got. So don't look for any other information, just use the polygraph results. So is there a lot of telltale signs for people who are innocent? Are there a lot more calmer or are there a lot more fidgety?

22:33You'll find that most innocent people are probably more terrified because one of the factors which I actually introduced to them during the interview is that they're always fearful of something. This is the unknown for a person who's never taken a polygraph before. It's a lot of them say it's pseudoscience. There are lots of skeptics. There is more information on the internet about why not to take a test than there is about the positive side. But, you know, that's for that person to have researched before they get to me. I always introduce to a person that they have to think about me am I um do I take a position where I don't like the look of them where I think they're they think that they're guilty of something but I try to know I have a discussion about that because I want to dispel that from them because I am the unknown um they've never met me before and they have they've put their trust in what I'm doing.

23:33Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have eczema, so I get how it can steal your time. But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about EBCLIS? EBCLIS, Lubrikizumab LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. EbGliss can be used with or without topical corticosteroids.

24:07Don't use if you are allergic to EbGliss. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EbGliss. Before starting EbGliss, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Paid partnership with Lilly. Respect your time. Ask your doctor about EbGliss and visit epglist.com or call 1-800-LILLY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects.

24:45And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports. Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode, available on Plus and Pro plans. Because if you were innocent, and obviously you're going to be scared with some questions and thinking, I mean, if you're thinking that you did that, could that potentially affect it? No, or does it just all still go down to heartbeat, stuff, anything? In my opinion, can you trick your mind to actually believe that you did do it? not just in polygraph but in life i don't believe that you can talk yourself into doing anything if you know that you've stolen if you've committed a murder you've committed a sexual offense it doesn't matter what it is you know if you've done it and this one of the issues that we have is a habitual thief for instance if i can give you this example but habitual thief who steals every day then what's the point in asking them about do you ever steal or did you steal this you've got to target the actual thing that you're there therefore not generalized stealing but if they've stolen a laptop or something of value then you can target on that item to focus them because otherwise stealing is just a an everyday job for them but so you have to target with something specific whereas in Luke's case hopefully Luke has never killed anybody you know ever but if he killed somebody before you would have to then use about Jodie and about the stabbing and about everything else so you've got to focus that that question if you can you obviously Luke's trying to get his retrial which I think he deserves if could you did you forward your results on to anyone my results um including the video was um was sanctioned by shots prison um it's quite unusual to be able to video in a prison um it was one of the first times i've ever been allowed to but i asked for permission um i signed a confidentiality report from the prison not to release it to anybody without their permission which i then did i complied with that I then got a letter from the prison to say that I could release it to his lawyer and then their lawyer actually put it on YouTube if Luke is innocent then it's potentially one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in the UK for a 14 year old boy to get sent down for a murder charge that he didn't do but again I'm not a lawyer I'm not a lawyer I'm just here to kind of shed light on it and show some facts because I believe people are starting to look at it differently, including myself when I it was Joe Steele who was on the show and he spoke about this case and he mentioned Luke, I kind of had a feeling that, why did they say that?

27:45I kind of, because what I knew Luke was a child killer, what I knew Luke was what, I believed in the papers and then once you actually start looking into it once you actually start looking at the evidence you start to realise there was no if this goes to a retrial then there's nothing there to actually convict Luke of a murder, so it's horrific to think and understand that from Jodie Jones' family, it's horrific that they've lost their daughter, but it's also horrific for Corrine if her son's innocent and he's in there for the last 16 years fighting for his life. Going forward for yourself, Terry, where do you see the polygraph tests coming into play in courts, maybe in the next five years or so?

28:27Unofficially, and I have to say unofficially because nobody official from the government will give us information but unofficially I am sort of aware that the police may start to expand the the coverage of polygraph into other areas which I think will be a great idea and I have spoken to several senior police officers in the past and I think they should be using it for criminal activity people trafficking even even on refugees of some description when they have no papers, but make sure that they are genuine, because today you can use polygraph for a whole host of issues. It's impossible to believe that we still have slavery in the UK, and it would be a good tool to use on a subject to find out whether they are telling the truth.

29:21Is there any cases for you, Terry, that you would like to work on with the polygraph test? Is there any people you would like to have on it to ask them questions? I've already done several very high profile cases which have been going on before Luke and some of those have gone into the European court because of the way that they've been used. There are several cases that also most of those and I would say well actually all of them have no evidence for that person and I find it impossible to believe that a person can be incarcerated for life when they have not committed a crime and I always try to put it into the perspective of that could be you or me false allegation no evidence but a jury convicts you on what's being said in a courtroom and also trial by the media plays a big part as well trial by media is a is a horrendous uh thing to happen because especially even with with men today as well the man is named immediately but the girl is not for even even when it's sexual abuse and those things are high profile every day and if this was the united states they would probably polygraph both of those people they'd polygraph the alleged perpetrator if he passes they'd polygraph the accuser and nobody wants to re-victimise and that's the biggest issue of all nobody wants to re-victimise a victim of anything but sometimes if a false allegation is made then that person needs to be in question yeah how much do they use the polygraph in the usa it's massive is that it's a federal government use it for all federal employees private practice has got some restrictions on pre-employment screening etc but there but it's used widely there are sort of five six thousand examiners in the united states how long do you need to train to be to understand the test and the initial training um is 11 weeks um it doesn't sound a lot but it's actually a 16 week course put into 11 weeks intense very intense course you don't get any chances of retaking exams and tests so if you if you can't keep up and you fail then you you go um but it's very expensive you've got to do it in the united states because i believe that that's the best place to do it it's been there for 98 years see i'm all for the polygraph test because obviously it's not 100 accurate as people say but for using it there's got to be a high percentage and give you a rough idea for stuff like maybe priests people who work in schools people who's working with children to give them a test and see because i believe there's more paedophile on this paedophilia is on the rise and there's a lot more people going to prison for it i think it'd be a good idea to for certain jobs to people getting put under a polygraph test do you do you believe that also i do believe in that because um under the old you know crb checks and then the dbs checks that they have now for certain jobs but you there are people that get through those because if you don't have a criminal record then you are issued with one straight away and yet there is a huge tendency here within the church not just within the catholics there's all sorts of churches and the way that religious are working with within paedophilia and child abuse and then there's all the school clubs scouts and see cadets and i've mentioned in these particularly because i've dealt with all of them where people are accused.

33:06And some of those are false allegations. Schools, one of the very first tests I did 14 years ago was on a head teacher who was accused because he refused to allow, I'm not going to say where it was or anything, but he refused to allow the girls and boys to wear jewelry in a school as a new head. And then all these allegations came out about him. He passed his test. He passed all the investigation, but he still couldn't resume his career because mud sticks. Yeah, it can be sad as well. Even if Luke did get a not guilty, does people still believe that it was guilty? Yeah, it's got a place. It's just, it's okay having that place but we need the authorities to actually go along with that.

33:54And even if they're using their own probation service, police officers, whatever they wish to use, then that's fine. But abuse in this country and serious crime, in my opinion, isn't being addressed correctly. People getting off with technicalities from serious criminal activity. And then there are the innocent people that are being convicted because the jury said so. and I think that sometimes the juries need to be better selected for certain cases, for sexual cases, financial cases and if you use that, I think that method might be better. Yeah, for juries to be more professional and aware of that type of issue, yes.

34:41Yeah, definitely and because obviously when Corrine did the test, it's more peace of mind for herself as well and more peace of mind that it's not like I told you so but it's to say the fingers have been pointed for so long. If you look at also the Madeleine McCann case the Madeleine McCann case where people have constantly pointed their fingers to Madeleine's parents. Do you think it'd be a good idea for them to do a polygraph test to say basically look, enough's enough, stop pointing fingers. Hey it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this but I have eczema. So I get how it can steal your time.

35:17But why let eczema take over when you can talk to your doctor about ebglis? Ebglis Lubrikizumab LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two milliliter injection, is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies, ebglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. co-steroids. Don't use if you are allergic to EpGliss. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe.

35:49Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EpGliss. Before starting EpGliss, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Paid partnership with Lilly. Respect your time. Ask your doctor about EpGliss and visit epgliss.com or call 1-800-LILLY-RX or 1-800-545-5979. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons Podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports.

36:33Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro Plans. I wouldn't offer them a polygraph test, but if you look at, and I don't take too much notice of newspapers, but a headline on the Sun newspaper a few years ago was from Madeleine McKen's mother who stated, I will do a polygraph test if the police ask me. now at that period the police did not use it that's over four years ago police now do use polygraph so why not take away the smear and take a polygraph test both both her and jerry mccann take this and if they can pass that test then the smears have to stop but you know the because that's where it all comes into it so it's not about what i believe in one way or another I have no knowledge about most of that case and all the evidence is very obscured anyway but in my opinion as an examiner somebody, they should take that test Yeah, for such a high profile case and for people looking into it and it's, again, people no matter what you're doing in life people are always going to judge but because that's such high profile and people have called out for that so many times and it's not their place to say because if they did fail it they'll say it's not 100 % anyway Well, it's also the case that they've had a great deal of public money and still only was it two weeks ago, they got another bunch of money from public money to further that case.

38:07So spending a few hundred quid on a polygraph test, why not do it and clear yourself and clear the air completely for that person? But then I would say that because I'm in polygraph. But if I was ever accused of a serious criminal act, I'll take a polygraph test every day of the week because I don't want that slur on me. And can you video your polygraph test that you do also? It's advisable to video virtually every test, especially with anybody with a sexual crime. They get videoed. And who can use the footage? Can the person who's getting tested use the footage okay? If they've got a lawyer, but you don't really want to give it to that person because you don't know what's going to happen and if a family member got hold of it and they didn't like that person they could abuse it and put it on and there are a lot of tests on YouTube and other social media sites so it's just being careful about what you do but primarily serious cases you need to be videoing that because if they make a confession then you need to be able to hand that to the right authorities so have you got the rights though a police officer that came and spoke to you about, say someone came to you for a test, did the test and the police found out, do you have the legal right to speak to the police or have you contracted to say nothing?

39:32There is a confidentiality agreement between myself and a client. However, and I have done this several times, if the police ask me for information, I do request that I comply with the law and I ask them to get a court order and then I will willingly give over all of that information because I have to protect obviously myself and my business from just handing information over. So sometimes a court right supersedes someone else's rights on a serious case. So why do you believe there's so many sceptics towards it when there's so much proof also that you've provided that they do work it's hard to trick you can't really fail it if you study it so if somebody if you were to study the test terry if you were to set your mind on it to fail to believe that you could pass how long would that take to trick it is there men in scs who can trick polygraph tests is that a myth i don't know oh well i i think it's a myth because a If there was a highly trained special forces guy who was under interrogation, most times, you see, you mustn't have anybody harmed.

40:47So if somebody came in, if they've captured a special forces guy and they've already now beaten the guy up, roughed him up, he can't take a polygraph test anyway. They have to come to you what I call clean. So you have to see that person right. All that person's got to do is make movements. it's not about training your mind and personally I don't think that anybody can alter their blood pressure their respiration to that sense you can you can meditate if you want to but that takes time to meditate and you haven't got that luxury in answering questions you've got five minutes to answer 11 questions with a gap in the middle of them but you've got to answer them immediately So if now you're getting a five second gap between me asking the question and and them answering, that's already given a reaction because there's a thought process.

41:40They should know the answer so you can answer yes, no immediately. So people that don't comply with that have obviously got something to hide. You get people who fake that they're asleep. But of course, when we're reading their charts and looking at their charts, you can see that they're wide awake. You can see that the tracings are perfectly OK, because near in a modern task with a computerized, we actually don't look at the subject. We have I had them. They have their back to me. I don't need to see them. I want them to focus on nothing. I want them to look straight ahead and see virtually nothing.

42:14Otherwise, they're searching your face for information and searching for things that you're doing. so there isn't a way in my mind of doing this and I've done a lot of research that I think that a competent professional examiner would easily see through somebody using tactics they're called countermeasures do you feel as if you're constantly um justifying because there's so many skeptics out there if you're the skeptic I'm a skeptic in lots of things I'm a skeptic for you know lots of different things that go on around the world and people talk about aliens people talk about gods people talk about all sorts of things I'm a skeptic as well everybody is about something even about our phone service you know you're skeptical they say even your broadband which I had a conversation yesterday they're telling me I have 100 meg and actually I'm looking at 30 So you're always skeptical about something.

43:12With polygraph, it is a very subjective thing for people to want to understand. The majority of people that do not like things like polygraph or have something bad to say about it usually don't want to take one. so if they are if you i mean if you go into even a basic relationship one and somebody doesn't want to take the test they will say i don't believe in that you know that's that's a that's all that would have been me 10 years ago so you're always going to find somebody's going to have a reason not to do a test um if they were in for a theft today but they didn't steal anything from their employer but five years ago they stole something from that same employer it's going to show up because it's associated because one of the questions is have you ever stolen from your employer so they may not be afraid about what they're here for today but they might be afraid about something they've done previously yeah in the past that maybe and so they want though people will be skeptical about doing the test yeah anyway maybe they've got some skeletons that yeah that's right it could get threw up in their face and say well i don't believe in the test i've said it for years i'm not i'm not i'm not in business to convince people i know i'm not a salesman i don't convince people if they come to me or phone me and ask me about doing a polygraph test i tell them what i expect from them no alcohol no drugs they've got to be in good condition there must be no domestic violence they have to want to come to see me and i'm not going to sell it to them i give them a cost and i give them you know a time an appointment they can either make that appointment or they can go and think about it and not come at all or go with somebody else so if i was drunk or full of drugs could that jeopardize the test absolutely could it make you trick the test or is it just it's not about tricking the test i mean one of the first things i look at with every single person including yourself and i met you in the car park it's a habit i look at eye dilation so if you've got you're out in the sunlight and if you had huge dilation my first question if you were coming for a test my first question when you come in the office would be do you have an eye problem and if you said no i've got perfectly my eyes okay i'd ask you why your eyes are dilated in the in the sunlight why are they like that um and if you can't give me a reasonable answer and say that you have a defect or you've just taken you know eye drops and things i'm not going to test you um so there's lots of things that you have to think about if somebody comes in smelling of alcohol i don't test them it isn't that that alcohol one drink is going to affect the test but if you fail that person they're going to use that to say the test is void i'd had a drink i've taken some drugs they have to sign a consent form i go through a medical history with them i go through whether they've been taking drugs and stuff for 48 hours i go through a whole procedure and they sign that when i finish the test i do get people say oh i forgot to tell you i am i took a diazepam and things like that if they've taken diazepam you're going to see it on their chart you're going to see the lowering of the blood pressure but so all you're going to all they're doing is is now looking for an excuse of to get out of that test yeah it's gave me a better understanding of it because a lot of people the way you've put it has there is a lot of sceptics no matter what in life.

46:43I'm sceptic at everything and everything's a conspiracy to me unless I see it in my own eyes, unless I do it myself. But for people looking in, I think it will give people a better understanding because it's not just a case where you stick wires on people and ask them questions. There's a whole procedure that comes with it. You also ask questions prior to the test about things to see if they're telling lies or telling the truth. I think it's a great thing, Terry. I genuinely do, I think it's a good thing yes people might say it's not 100 % but it still gives you a route and an angle that you can look at and question it more and get into more detail would you do would you ever do a live debate?