The Price of Crime - 43 Years in Prison - Gangster John Massey Tells His Story

38:45I think it got away with 70 grand and that was back in the early 80s. Just made them all tea. But then obviously when it says, it made them all feel calmer. But then again, the trauma will still hit them as well. Did you ever think about that as the years pass on? Like all those banks going in and people screaming. Does that ever play in your mind as well, John? It does. It does. Because you're not really aware of it at the time. But on reflection, you look back at your past, you think I must have been a fucking arsehole you know some of the things I've done and that but um

39:28I don't know I've made reparation wherever I can in certain certain things you know obviously you can't repair a lot of the damage you've done but I don't know it's like someone I asked today about I mean I was approached by a Scotland Yard at the beginning of my sentence and normally you would entertain having an interview with them but I was intrigued you know I wanted to know what they knew so I agreed to this visit they offered me five years in Chiswick Police Station in a suite of cells where you could live in comparatively luxury of your girlfriend or your wife or whatever booze if our cops happened to my pals if I gave them information on all me bank robbing friends we know what my answer was they ended up doing 43 strings there's not many people would have done that how many people would have bit their fucking armour fucking right there's no loyalty nowadays but what they don't realise I remember because Bertie Smalls was the first one right with the old Wembley bank robbers he traded all these pals in for I don't even know if he's still alive the cunt I hope he ain't but to me it's more important to walk along that street and hold your head up and knowing that nobody can point a finger at you that's more than any amount of prison or money i'll do this sentence all over again and they if they threaten me with it if i won't give them names or whatever I'd do it all over again no hesitation I think that's why you're respected though I think that's why there's no minute you know yourself in that in that game there's no loyalty anymore especially nowadays James if you can't live with yourself you might as well be fucking dead anyway yeah because that that guilt will eat you from the inside out so seeing you going through court how long did the court case last just over three weeks did they offer you a deal nah were you done banking rights

42:07I suppose with all the evidence they had and the witnesses yeah I still pleaded not guilty still trying to fight the system I think the jury come back with in the end he couldn't get a unanimous verdict. It ended up 11-1, I think. So it's pretty strong, isn't it? Yeah, it's fucked. But the judge was a bit of a prick. He made a birdie of me straight away. Whereas my pal, he only ended up doing a 14 stretch of his life sentence. So I'm in the witness box, and the judge said, would you like a glass of water, Mr. Massey? I thought, yes, I would, thank you. and he's made this business of pouring a glass of water and he's gone to hand it to me and he's pulled it back lively, poured the water into a plastic cup.

43:05I thought, you cunt. You know what I mean? He's made me look like an animal, like a wild animal. I'm not trusted with a glass. How was it going through the court case? Was it Charlie Higgins? Yeah. Was his family there? I don't know. I was only conscious of any family members of Charlie Higgins, the Old Streets Magistrate Court, and his sister, and I've never forgot it. She was in the public gallery, which was the same level as the court. you know and as uh we got uh what they call it um not convicted uh oh you have to go to the magistrate before you go to high court don't you so then we finished with that on the way out and she it was this woman it was you could see the pain in her face and tears and she said I've said something to me and I leaned for and she spat at me and I turned out to be his sister and I really felt sorry for her all these years yeah because I know how my own family felt about me you know I never ever saw that pain again when I was in Warnersworth, before I was sentenced.

44:38And I got the news that my brother Terry had committed suicide. And he was only ten months younger than me.

44:56We'd written a couple of letters and we were quite close. We'd sort of shared a bedroom most of our life. Obviously you had fights along with and stuff, who's shirt you're wearing and who's socks and all that. But I loved it the best. but and anyhow they they took me to chapel where my family was and I remember my sister especially my older sister Carol she was an absolute bitch you know it was the same look on her face as Charlie Egan's sister why why because they both lost a brother does she blame you who your sister oh no no it was over for the loss of my brother Terry so I'm now the only surviving male in the family well with me dad like so but what they that gave me was a secret weapon in prison really because I knew as low as I ever got in prison and there were some bad, dark times in prison, I could never do what my brother did.

46:19I could never inflict that pain on them twice. You understand what I mean? So that left me with, although there were many times I wanted to die, I wanted to end it or pull the plug or whatever, but I couldn't do that to my family. but that left me with the secret weapon no fear I didn't give a fuck about dying if the screws wouldn't come and beat me up I'd meet you face head on and that's what they caught an angle in prison they uh I wouldn't give in no matter how much they hurt me I thought it was legitimate to die in combat as it were but no way would I ever do it to myself which was which gave me that weapon of absolutely fearless in the eyes of the squadron where you got a lot of prisoners curl up into a ball in the corner oh please sir no more um no fuck all that and give it to him, you know, until you're unconscious.

47:31And then when you wake up, give it to me again. If a screw come to my door and you open it, I could tell immediately by the demeanor on his face whether he'd come to give me grief or... Because if a screw said good morning to me, good morning to me, it'd be the hardest thing in the world for me not to say good morning back. But if he'd come to give me grief for that, I wouldn't even bother waiting to find out, I'd jump up straight away and stick the nut on him. Like, oh, what did you do that for? Because you're about to do it to me, you cunt. And they did. What was it like when you got your guilty, John?

48:14I remember, I remember me legs feeling like jelly when I was sentenced. When it kind of, the import of it sort of hit me like a, like a cost, you know. But then you've got to face your partner and your mum and your dad and your sisters and, yeah, it's all very emotional time. What did they give you, 23? No, they gave me a life sentence with a minimum of 20. so that means there's no maximum so when I did get when I came to the 20 year review they gave me a brown envelope with a knockback in it saying you're not getting it I thought fuck it that was when I made my first escape after the 20 years yeah I thought they ain't gonna let me out fuck it I'll let myself out how many prisons were you in that 20 years oh I lost count I've been in virtually every prison in the country, except White Moor.

49:28I remember being transferred from Long Larton in a 52-seater coach. About eight screws, just me, on the way to White Moor. I think we'd get about 100 miles or whatever, and the radio's coming up. no we don't want him here so they tried to park me up other prisoners the answer kept coming back no we don't want him here so i said like no no one wants me drop me off at the nearest bus stop you know but in the end i ended up in winston green in birmingham and uh because when you just cut out in the early days you got moved every three months anyway so that you couldn't settle or if you was digging a tunnel you go and finish it you know did you ever come across Charlie Bronson?

50:24yeah I did what was he like? I don't really want to talk about him because I fell out of him and I'm still pissed off with him to this day so little said about that what about when you've done your 20th stretch ended you have in your mind there's a possibility you could have got out I suppose if I'd have towed the line and been a quiet boy or whatever and did the yes for no for free baseball I probably would have but I guess it's impossible did you do any courses or anything for behaviour yeah oh I did like the basic R &R whatever they call it but most of the work I've got other people would have filled the forms in, you know.

51:14I just couldn't be arsed with it. Because unless you go, and they're a complete waste of time. You get prisoners that are artists that, you know, and they can sail through these courses like Greece, but, but me, you gotta be devious to do that, you know. You gotta, fuck it, what you see is what you get with me if they don't like the answer it's too bad you know that's the answer I'm giving did you think you're gonna die in prison not as long as I had breath no because I thought is always escape yeah although a few prison governors did threaten me with that it's like you'll end up dying in prison.

52:08Did you ever see prisoners get killed by the screws? Absolutely yeah and every single fucking time the screws come out whitewashed. Unbelievable. Clean it up so it's an accident. I mean Belmarsh was with Jimmy right they called me off the exercise yard for a moody spin they called the DST. There were a group of screws that wore paramilitary style uniform like a long angled boots and all the patch pockets all the gizmos and all fucking muscle band all the steroids doing weight training and all that. I was what well in I was old about age pension at the time. They called me off the exercise yards for a moody spin as I got my sweatshirt halfway over my head they steamed into me and they fucking pummeled me for about quarter and out and you know the sick part about it the guy that did the worst out he threw the punts from behind can I mention his name am I gonna get I don't give a fuck if he sues me anyway I've got fuck all his name was Carl Mourning muscle band cunt.

53:34His face was the poster boy on the anti-violence posters. How sick is that? And I ended up later meeting a couple of women in Rochester prison who were married to a principal officer in Belmarsh. And the stories they told me about the violence where you hit her over the head with plates and fucking broke the, you know, frying her punches and animals. These steroids they're taking to build up their, they affect you. A lot of people, they make you violent, don't they? Well, that's what I've heard anyway. But this group of animals called the DST, they actually perpetrated the violence. You know, they'd go up to a prisoner and just hit him on the chin and when they'd react, I'd blow the whistle, press the bell, they'd all be on him.

54:42When they'd done me that day, they'd banged everyone up so nobody could see what's going on. So when I tried to nick him over it, Belmarsh is the most secure prison in the country. They house the worst of the worst in Belmarsh. They got cameras every fucking two foot. They couldn't pull up one single frame of CCTV footage when I got smashed up. Unbelievable. Did they break anything? No. They tried to. It was only my experience in that sort of roughhouse and my fitness that I survived. I mean, I was 66. I think any other 66-year-old, he wouldn't have made it. Why did you do that? Because of my escape from Pentonville.

55:45It was payback. because there was a governor at Pantyville, a black woman called Jenny Lee, Jenny Lewis, or something like that. She met me in Belmarsh reception. I was banged up in the cell away from the other prisoners because I was K.A. She's opened the door, and I'm like, Oh, hello, Miss Lloyd. She said, Massey, a lot of people want to kill you. I said, what for? She said, nothing personal. I went and seen it. I had to go and see my mum. You wouldn't let me. I got there. I did it. She said, you ruined a lot of lives. So obviously there was an extreme bad feeling about it. I don't know if the governor got the sack or whatever.

56:40because when I escaped, I escaped during a security audit and that ain't supposed to happen. Nobody escapes during a security audit. So obviously heads had to roll. I said, well, if you was doing your fucking job probably, I wouldn't have done it, would I? I'm like, why have a go at me? It's your fault. So she sicked the other people onto me. that's my belief anyway so seeing your first 20 years did you have anything in your mind that there was a possibility you could have escaped or were you thinking try and do the 20 years as clean as possible so you can get out no no no no matter no matter what institution I've ever been in my first thought is how to get out and to me it's a natural I've always said look you put any living creature in a cage what's it do?

57:41It fucking circles every inch of that cage looking for a weakness to get out it's a natural instinct even like salmon swimming upstream even a plant you wouldn't dedicate as having an intelligence put it in a dark corner it will grow towards the light you can't legislate against human nature can you but they they want to put penalties like 10 years in prison if you try to escape or it just goes against the grain so your first escape was 20 years later yeah how did you plan that um I managed how I did it I can't really remember now but my dad had um he had a stroke and he was in a wheelchair. And they allowed me a compassionate escorted visit, which made it easy, you know.

58:39So I had some pals ready waiting to meet me, innit? And I spent a month laid down in the flat before I got transported to Spain. How did you get this been? Car? Well, originally me and pal, we had hired these two young pilots. to fly me into Belgium. But they were a couple of fuckers, they were. We had this long drive down to Dover Airport and they got this fucking cheap old Cessna. And I looked at it, I thought, fuck it. I don't like planes anyway, but this thing looked like it was hell to give it with bailing wire, you know. As luck would have it, air traffic control come out. and said, look, listen boys, it's too bluster across the channel.

59:34We had ripped the wings off the day. You won't be able to fly in a day. I thought, well, thank you for that. So now I've got the choice. We've got to drive all the way back to London, back to the safe house. I thought I could get Nick on the way. We could get a pool on the way back, you know. I said, fuck it, go to the pool. Let's get a feel of it, see if you can buy a couple of tickets for the ferry. So, he said, oh, that's alright, we'll put you in the boot. I said, fuck all this first place. He said, look, he said, no, we've done it loads of times. A couple of right urbots, these pilots are.

1:00:13I think they had five grand needs to fly me and a couple of tickets is cheap, isn't it? So, I went, I was going alright then, but drive somewhere where no one can see me get in the boot. But just as I was about the pull away like the alarms went out I went no no no I said show me your passports give me the passports so I put theirs I've got a dodgy one I put mine in the middle trying to see if I get any vibes that mine's a bit iffy felt alright I said fuck it go and buy free tickets anyhow we got to the customs control bit what's the first things the woman said can we have a look in the boot you fair of cunts they've been well nicked you know but it went sweet as luck got through all that where did you go how did you get in somebody went to Cali in the boot aye no no no normal just sitting normal normal yeah so you were going to go in the boot but then you tried I changed my mind yeah fuck that they always like in the boot exactly yeah do you think they'll try to get you caught I don't know I think they're just too green and stupid on the way to fucking Paris they try to sell me the car

1:01:33so what happens then when you get through you thinking I'm going to make a new life for myself and try and keep the head down or you thinking I'm going to get a bit of luck it was kind of impossible because

1:01:45what could I do legally I'm in a strange country never been out of England ever in my life before but Power Mind set me up with some people in a got me this sixth bedroom where it was like passing up puff you know loading it on the lorries and getting back that was a good life good money good luck how long were you there for? well in Spain yeah well I was I was two years free in I spent the next three years in Spanish prisons. They caught you there? How did they catch you? Oh, it was like deja vu. It was.

1:02:40It's still very sore for me as well. I had a baby boy by my partner and he died. I called it Code Def. I saw that you hear that. Yeah. And So, me and Gilbert were out drowning our sorrow sort of thing. We stopped at this barring finger roller. She was obviously upset. I said, look, you go to the toilet, clean yourself up, I'll order a drink. So as I've all drank, she had to walk past. The pub was empty except with these three guys sitting in the corner. As she'd gone past them, one of them said, What's the matter, darling? Has that cunt upset you? I thought, I've heard it. I was sorry, I'd take no notice of them pricks.

1:03:37And next year, one of them's come up behind me, smashing me in the back of the hip with a stool. and nobody's running round the bar and bubbled all the doors. So obviously they were going to lock me in there and shoot me up like a banjo, you know. But they picked the wrong fella that night. I left them all on the fucking deck and ended up getting charged with attempted murder. And they attacked me. How long did it take to get extradited? Three years. Did you want to stay in Spain or did you want to go back home? Yeah, absolutely. What do you think? Actually, I've got, I've got, actually, I had the same, that's my mate, Kenny.

1:04:19Kenny Noyer, we've got an exam here, as well. And, in the end, they ended up putting us in separate prisons, you know. And they come for me at three o 'clock in the morning, the Guardia Seville, fucking machine guns and everything, type me up, I'll check it, and put me in the back of the car off to the airport. Yeah they don't fuck about that Did you ever have any hassle in the Spanish Jews? They tried it if you'd like because being a foreigner you're a bit of a they consider you prey don't they but I put my foot down straight away and they nicknamed me Loco English like the manned Englishman but it was alright if I had to choose between doing bird ear or in Spain I choose Spain every day.

1:05:12Why? Because you've got that air of hope there. They have a fiesta at the drop of a hat. They have ambulances every now and again. You cannot get your missus in as well. Life sentence doesn't exist. You cannot get your bud in as well. You can have conjugal visits, yeah. Fuck it, innit? Yeah. There's no work. You're out in the sunshine all day, every day. You've got a little shop built into the wall. What more do you want? How much does alcohol play in your downfall John? Obviously it played a great deal although I'm not a heavy drinker by any means I very rarely drink more than three pints a month now you know but then there was always that you know when you're young you're clubbing it and pubbing it and pissing it all out the wall you know.

1:06:04If I wouldn't drinking that night, all this would never have happened. You know, I do think of that now and again, but... As well as I know. Yeah, and when this other incident happened in Spain with a free guy, and they turned out to be free Englishmen as well. I thought, fuck me, I'd come all this way to fucking Spain and I'd be free Englishmen, you know. And they tried to claim compensation. and they said, all the fuckers, they locked all the doors and they wanted to chew me up so I couldn't escape. You know, you've just lost a child, and you've got a bit of whizz up you, and they pressed the wrong buttons, you know.

1:06:53What was it like when you got extradited back? Fuckin' all, yeah. I think I got met here Oh Scotland Yard come and got me I was double cuffed on the plane Couldn't eat me fucking dinner probably on the plane Because of the cuffs I thought about causing a scene and all that Get the cuffs off And we got into Heathrow where they whisked me straight off to Wandsworth. And there, I could sense the animosity straight away there. You know. Was that you and Bat and Catty again? Yeah, Catty and Catty. Yeah. Did you get an add-on? What was the add-on for that?

1:07:57I don't think I did an extra six or seven years Was it what's that? Fucking right Yeah I got to see my mum No one can ever take that away from me

1:08:17No, as I said before if you start regretting things and you want to change things then that means you've got to change everything and obviously you can't pick and choose just change the bad bits you've either got to accept all of it or not at all I wouldn't change anything You escaped four times but the four times not because of all family issues Yeah What was the second time you escaped for? Well, my sister Carol, eldest sister, I got a message, I was actually, and it wasn't what I'd classed as an escape anyway, because I was in open prison, Ford, where I eventually got banned from all open prisons, all right, they go, this Warren Hill we are.

1:09:15I got a message that she wanted to see me, If you knew my sister Carol, she would, they would be very out of character, she would never ask. So I knew it was serious. She was in intensive care in the Royal Free. So I went straight to the governor, asked for permission to go and see her. I figured I'm in open prison, you know. No. I said, well give me an escort a visit then. I don't care, you know, you've got to use six screws, I just need to see her. And I'm sorry, we can't spare the staff. I thought, fuck you, I'm going. The core was too strong, you know. And yeah, she died two weeks later. So I wouldn't change the thing, no.

1:10:11I got to see her. You've got to spend that two weeks later? See, I never forgot the day my brother died. I didn't get to say goodbye. That's hurt me to this day, 43 years later, 46 years later. So if ever there's a chance, you know, every time you have a phone conversation with a loved one, you always end that conversation by saying I love you. Or you leave the home, you leave the house. Alright, see you later. Love you. They may be the last words you'll ever say to them. And if you didn't do that and something bad did happen, it'll pull you to pieces for the rest of your life. You see what I'm getting at?

1:11:05Yeah. Yeah. So when you spent your two weeks with your sister, did the coppers know you were there? Did they just leave you alone? That was strange. I did sense there was activity around there, but I did a bit of recognition around the hospital and had slipped in quietly. But I did, I think I was lucky more than anything. Yeah. So if you're in your open prison, John, are you not then close to being released? Of course, of course. But how can you not go and see your sister? You're very close to who's dying, basically. To me, that's cruel. Yeah, I would have done the same. That's inhumane. I would have done the same.

1:11:58Yeah. Which is what happened in the case of my mum, where I had to escape from Penterville. I think it doesn't matter where I'd have been at the time, I would have made an attempt wherever it was. And this is the third time you escaped? yeah I can't remember really so every time you've escaped is to go and see a loved one who was dying well the other one wasn't an escape I was actually I got released to a hostel I was only out three weeks my dad was dying in Royal Free again so we're at his bedside the whole family's at his bedside and in the event, I was actually the last one my dad spoke to.

1:12:50Everyone was asleep and I saw him take his last breath. But when I phoned up, the doctor came in to tell us, look, we don't think it does get a loss the next 24 hours. So I did the dutiful thing. I phoned up the hostel, told him the circumstances. I said, look, I'm staying with the rest of the family by my dad's bedside. He's only got hours left in it. No, Mr. Massey, you've got to come back here and observe the 11 o 'clock curfew. I think, oh, fuck off. But if I... They recalled me to prison for that.

1:13:40and basically another 10 stretch it's not even a crime I can't whisk you off the street for disobeying and all the can I give you a 10 stretch but I can if you're doing a life sentence

1:14:00I'm on a bit of string I can yank on that bit of string any time they'd like to drag you back. Although in my case, I don't think they want me back in a hurry, but it's feasible they can do that. Can you see why you are, though? What? On a bit of string with them. Yeah, but I think anything short of violence, they have a strong time justifying dragging me back to prison.

1:14:30Because no matter what you've done, John, you can see you're still a good guy, you're loyal and I've got a heavy heart for you but also feel as if you've got a heavy heart your own, you're carrying a lot of pain. Oh, I've got a lot of baggage, but you know, sometimes I feel the weight of it is going to drag me down, but it's like talking to people like yourself, you should kind of give me a little bit of renewed energy, you know. Because you've been there, you know what it's all about. But a lot of other people don't understand. They understand prison circumstances from programs like porridge or, you know.

1:15:16It's so far removed from reality, it's untrue. You must be one of Britain's longest serving prisoners. well I was before I was released but I think now Charlie Bonson's overtaken me now because he's still in there isn't he how hard is that for you to try and like talk about it and being in prison for that and missing family time like how hard is that for a man who spent so long in prison knowing that you're clearly still a family man and you're clearly carrying a lot of regret and pain but how difficult is it because for anybody watching this maybe wanting to get involved in a life of crime I think they're a bad man that I think your prime example that crime doesn't pay?

1:15:56Of course it doesn't pay. Well, one of my good friends, I used to be bank robbing with one of the leading members of a London crime family. He said to me a couple of months ago, he said, John, he said, if we'd have gone to work straight all these years instead of going on the pavement, he said we would have saved all that grief and we'd have had more money than we got that than we ever got out of that which is true

1:16:33How's your relationship with Kenny and I though? Because Kenny's a high profile name as well Yeah, no I always seem to be defending his name Kenny because I've always found him a nice guy an gentleman but all this shit that's been brought about And because he killed the coser and that, obviously, he's under threat all the time, many from the other people. But to me, I think he was a nice guy. And I've never known Kenny to be violent except on defence. And in both cases, where he killed that coser, he jumps up out of a hole in the ground and whacks him by the end of a pistol. but and he stabbed him

1:17:26you're virtually fighting for your own life in them certain it's not murder is it the guy they think they're James Bond some of these C-17 people he dug a foxhole in his in his garden out in Kent to keep surveillance on him for the gold bullion remember it yeah and Kenny happened to be out in the garden walking the two dogs who they misappropriate name brings a mat and the dog sensed the guy in the garden he's jumped up out now well i don't call that mark all that self-defense they had the masks and that on as well did they not yeah he's better claving up everything frightening terrifying situation you don't know the it is do you might be coming might be an assassin or whatever.

1:18:22What's the worst prison you've been in, John? Armley. Why? I didn't even have to think about that, did I? No. Armley in Leeds, because they beat the fuck out of me there and left me unconscious, left me with amnesia. I got transferred there from Wakefield where they try to fit me up with stolen keys. they come and dragged me out of bed at three o 'clock in the morning in me underpants cuffed me slung me on the van took me in the armly and all I got out of them was you cockney cunt you're not a fucking gangster up here mate all that shit through the spiral and they kept a red light on all night because I was they said because I was K I was K in the other jails they never kept the fucking red light on and they wouldn't turn it off I'd smash it off the ceiling and then proceeded to smash the whole fucking cell up and they said through the space well I went beginning in the morning we'll fucking break your back and all that I said well come on then and you know I got as prepared as I could do but they overwhelmed me and they dragged me down the strong box but as they're dragging me down the stairs they're letting my head in every step on the way fucking down you know it's one of their tactics and I don't remember much after that I woke up in a strong what I knew was a strong box it's like you just call it it goes under a few names silent cell it's like a cell within a cell have you ever come across them no so you got you got to go through one door before you get to another door which is a cell and all it is is bare concrete you got a concrete post coming out of the floor for your chair or maybe a tree stump or something like that and you got a concrete slab as your bed and I woke up in there and I couldn't remember my own name it was weird But I knew I was in prison.

1:20:40So I thought, how can I remember I'm in prison yet not remembering my name or how I got here? That's strange, mate. It was really weird. And I remember the silence. And I thought, and the silence was so silent, it was deafening, if you know what I mean. It kind of hurt my ears if it's so silent. Just white noise. yeah and that's what they done to me then they made me and they put me into another strong box the next time and I had to run the gauntlet from the strong box to the recess to empty my piss bar and all that where they battered me on going in coming back so the worst jail I've ever been yeah armly I wanted to set up and fucking machine gun nest outside when i got out and do love them but that's how much hatred they instilled in me you know because i was from london or a colony as it i really got achievement yeah because i had someone uh sam miller he was an ira and they called him the blanket boys 10 years every day get a beating yeah and he hated them he says i think a few of them got murdered but he wanted more killed and you can understand why the hate and the rage if you're getting beat up every fucking day and abused and laughed at and tormented then you're going to be full of rage people's ego get dented if you just bang into them did you ever see that film The Sleepers?

1:22:15yeah Brad Pratt the four young boys and they come back for revenge that's the kind of scenario I mean I've felt that and in fact a few of my pals have had to talk some strong sense into me you know but because I still had that urge to get recompense you know but but nah get revenge yeah but it's a monk's game really yeah so see after your 43 years what was the run up to getting released John were you in an olden prison no because you never got an olden prison anymore did you because you're a state no so I think it was Blunkett who introduced This new prototype prison is a bit of a guinea pig place where it was closed, enclosed, but you had to get through three stages to be eligible for release.

1:23:17but you couldn't get home leave or any of the privileges you got in a category D prison so again I got other people to fill all the forms in after school come out oh that was very good John yeah well I've never fucking done it you know it felt like you've got to break your own principles to go ahead with it you know and it all meant no it was all sort of cosmetic stuff in actual reality it was all it didn't mean a lot you know and I actually got one of the fastest releases ever known to a lifer. I've never known anybody get released so quick because I've got a parole board coming up. That's why I grew this beard.

1:24:13I first grew this beard, I thought, fuck it, all the other parole boards I've had in the past, they got this young picture of me on the folder. I think, oh, he only looks young and fuck it, he can do another 10 stretch. You know, I thought, well, this time I'm going and looking old and I'm all getting in slow and all that and I got it I got parole so I got a parole on a Monday now you're supposed to wait 15 days before you get an answer I got a parole ball on a Monday I got the answer on a Tuesday I got kicked out on a fucking Wednesday never been known before because even after the 15 days waiting for the answer for improbable then you've got to wait a month or so for probation to set you up with a hospital and all that shit so I was in and out three days what was that for?

1:25:17I think I became in an embarrassment I knew the MPs were even asking the question why is this man still in prison I know that Lord Ramsbom he did ask that and the ex-prison governors were asking, they were making comments when I escaped, you know. And it was kind of the overall view that they couldn't explain why I've served longer than any terrorist, any multiple fucking child killer, any rapist, pedophile, lunatic, even a guy convicted of genocide. I've served longer why? basically I went out for a drink on Friday night never come home for 43 years I never went out to change the world or overthrow the government or so why have I served longer than anybody else in England why have I become the longest serving prisoner it didn't make sense what was it like when you got Yeah, there was a guy that got released, got paroled at the same time as I did.

1:26:32I forget, David fucking McGreevy killed three children he was babysitting for, decapitated them and stuck their heads on spikes on display. How come he did 13 years less than me? How come he's not a danger to the public and I was? which is always their answer when they knock me back for parole I'm a danger to the public I've never been a danger to the public ever what was it like when you got parole what was that feeling like John fucking brilliant I've still got a picture on my phone of the day I got out yeah my sister and my niece come and pick me up and a family friend and you look at that picture you can see the pure happiness on my sister and niece's face and mine it was great it's a long time that see when you get out did you ever think it was a bit too fast paced here too much that you were going to do something to go back in no no no because I didn't make the mistake of a lot of prisoners over the years I wasn't content to lie in the bed smoking puff and all that I'm forgetting about I wanted to know what's going on in the world.

1:27:54I bought a paper every day religiously for years. I always turned the news on, the old Channel 4 news and I was like a sponge for information all the time what's going on. So I never got left behind with the progress of the outside world because a million times schools or governors say to me, oh you'll find it strange when to get out, John, now. I mean, no, the only thing I fucking find strange is being in prison. That's the unnatural environment for me, not out here. Yeah. And so when you get out, if you're keeping up with current affairs and politics and what's going on in the rest of the world, you're not suffering the culture shock when you come out.

1:28:45What did you do when you got out?

1:28:54Well, a friend of mine gave me a van, a very good friend of mine, and I love my work car montry, I'm a car montor, and I started doing a bit of work carpentry. But then I wanted to do everything legal. you know I didn't want anybody to point out or pick me up on anything so I spent 400 pound doing the courses to get a CSES card you know it's a work card so you can get on building science and that and I had this uh friend who's got a company in Moorgate would have given me all work I had or I could work seven days a week if I wanted. But it had to be straight you know, had to be with the cars and I did a trial, I did half a day's work for him, all of a sudden they stopped my pension for three weeks over Christmas period.

1:30:00I'm not allowed to work and that is one of the grievances I still have to this day because when I was released they declared that I wasn't entitled to a state pension because I haven't paid any stamps all over the years. But when you consider it, I'm working for the Queen, right? It's under HMP, innit? I'm fucking sewing mailbags, doing menial tasks and cleaning. Why is that not? Working prison is compulsory. If you don't work, you get punished. Why is that not worth a stamp to entitle me to a state pension? Can you answer that one? No. Well, that's what it's doing to me. No, still? Yeah, I'm not legally allowed to work unless I want to risk losing my media pension, which is a pittance.

1:31:02And you're what to work? do you want to work? I want to work yeah but obviously I can't maybe do a full time the effects of the stroke I've had I'm getting tired now it's becoming a struggle to talk but you know a full working physical day I don't know that I'll be able to do that. For people watching a lot of people will offer you work and a lot of people want to do well for you so I'm going to leave a link or some sort of email for yourself that people can be in contact I see a lot of goodness in you John you're loyal to the fucking boy let me bring up another I did this job for an American couple near where I live they're very well-to-do and they wanted some bookcases built from floor and ceiling all the way around the room so it was one of the first jobs I had since coming home And I thought, I have to tell these people my background because I don't want them to find out from somebody else and then freak out, you know.

1:32:15So before I started working for them, I told them, look, I've just been released in prison. I served a life sentence for murder, blah, blah, blah. I told them, well, they left that house with me in there working on my own for the whole day. And you can't buy a feeling like that, that pleasure, that trust they put into me. That was the right thing I did was by telling them. And they was at ease with me from the word go. And to this day, they're very good friends of mine. and they asked me back several times to repair things and that. And to me, that's, you know, that's lovely. It boosts me up, it does.

1:33:07But you can see a lot. Because if anybody doesn't like where I've been or what I've done, they can fuck off. I'm not interested in them anyway. So I make a point now, if anybody's home I go into, where I have to do a bit, I have to tell them where I'm from and what I'm all about you know because I don't want them finding out by accident and freaking out and making the imagination running wild you can understand why some people would freak out as well oh absolutely that's why I feel the need to tell them you know see every Christmas and New Year did it get easier or did it get harder as the years went on well inside yeah

1:33:59well one of the things I did which obviously affects me now that I'm out and it it confuses a lot of people is I have great difficulty remembering dates or times because when I When I was inside, I never used to have a calendar. I was aware of the dates for most of the time, but Monday through to Sunday, through to Christmas, Easter, to me it was just one long stretch of time. No one day was any special than the other, and that made it so easy for me. I never got traumatised for anniversaries of someone dying or whatever, like my sisters do. I don't, because I don't know the dates. You know, for all the people I've lost, they're in here, they're with me forever anyway.

1:35:01I don't need a date to remember by. And so time for me was just one big long streak. Otherwise, if you're going to mark off the days, it becomes an eternity. you know, you're making things hard for yourself. When did you do the programme, was it The Mind of a Murderer? No, it's called What Makes a Murderer. When did you do the programme, What Makes a Murderer?

1:35:36I don't, again, I can't really say, I don't know whether it was a year ago or two years ago. What was it like?

1:35:50they took me on location I think Birmingham University is where they did the brain scans it was a scientific program to discover if there was any difference between my brain pattern and any normal person and apparently they said there was I have an what was that word? Medulla? Medulla. Yeah, it's that mind is enlarged which apparently according to the science this was a psychopathic trait. I don't really believe a word of it but I can believe that maybe it's a sign that you've suffered trauma because they say that's where your feelings or emotions are based and when when you traumatize as you say like when i was a child it kind of shuts itself off i don't know he said it grows bigger than it or i don't know it's all it's all gobbledygooks i mean because because at one point you put six brain scans on the table and asked me to pick one out that had the most psychopathic traits in it i picked one out it turned out to be his a scientist so he's more fucking psychopathic than i am what is this like what is the psychopathic traits no empathy yeah no lack of fear you could say you have that one though yeah but i don't i don't attribute that to being a psychopath i attribute that than my brother

1:37:43what is this like a perfect trait store was there many or was it only a few well again lack of empathy I think they got it wrong because you know as I say I've sat and watched the sop we had over chocolate and had tears rolling down my cheeks no I feel a lot of empathy I feel a great deal of empathy for what's going on at the moment and in Ukraine. It's absolutely fucking horrendous, you know.

1:38:16And so if lack of empathy was a psychopathic trait, that's not me. I'm not a psychopath. I don't believe. I think if you didn't have any empathy, I don't think you'd have escaped prison four times to go and see family members. No. I can envision, given the right circumstances, is being a selective psychopath. You know, if someone is a friend in my family or is just a plain bad bastard, then I could become a loser and think myself, anybody could, as you've said before. You know, you get mothers and fucking lift up a seven-stone mother and lift up a car off her child. You know, that's the type of strength it generates.

1:39:04It's got to be for the right reasons. You must have came across a few madmen though inside. Why did they never send you to Broadmoor? Because I wasn't mad. Did they ever try? Actually, I got quite worried about that one time because during my stint at Parkhurst, you had this psycho doctor called Cooper. and used to be out I was on his work party they used to call it Cooper's Troopers he had the power to nut you off you know but I didn't realise by being on his party I was I was under scrutiny so but in the end they found him running around the woods outside by the stark naked he was a fucking lunatic yourself yeah he's probably just saying people were there on their behind as well but that's the type of abuse that went on years ago now it's pretty difficult to get someone put in a nut house but there one man's signature boss you're off is enough yeah how does it feel talking about your story today your past family members it's I can feel it's drained me a bit I feel kind of wiped out.

1:40:36Actually, I gave up trying to write my own book because I got into a circumstance where I'm reliving a certain memory. And it leave me like a wet flannel, you know. I go, fuck it, I can't do that. So in the end, I've got this guy who works for the Camden Journal. I've dictated it to him and he's written it. That'll be a powerful book. It's a bestseller you've got there, John. Yeah, so I've just been accepted to deal with history books. I was at first going to go through Harper and Collins, but then the COVID crap hit and everything went pear-shaped. and then the managing director, the editor, what was it, I forget, Kelly Ellis, she become pregnant and went on maternity leave and it kept dragging on and on and on and then they wrote back, they said they wanted this bit rewritten in the first person.

1:41:52In the end, I think they've, They're so big to come in here. They think they haven't got the courtesy to answer your emails or inquiries or whatever. And you know, fuck it, let's go somewhere else. And this guy from history books is very eager and very keen to write a story or to publish a story, which is all I want. I want someone who's interested in it, not because they want to make money out of it, you know. what would the John of now say to the 20 year old John from the past if you could give him advice stick to your fucking carpentry and leave all the criminality alone yeah yeah I have very strong regrets for that I mean in prison I I actually became badminton champ for over 40 years and because I remember asking my dad one day I was interested in playing tennis he said to me what do you want for your birthday son I said tennis racket dad well you give me a cunt round a fucking ear roll and bought me a pair of boxing gloves which was his passion you know boxing and I used to say point to Matt Macken Road trip I said look we just won Wimbledon and got 150 grand yeah it was too late now saying that you know I think under the I don't ever want to criticise my parents or be this long to them but a lot of the way you grow up is who your parents are and if they can open up their minds to what makes you tick what your likes dislikes and passions are instead of saying no we want you to be a lawyer we want you you'd be a doctor, you'd be one, you'd be this day or the other, you'd be a success.

1:43:58Because you have to love what you're doing to be successful at it. And I loved holding a racket. And a shotgun. No, not really. You've had some life, John. You've had some life, man. I prefer pistols and shotguns. But you can clearly see that you're still a good guy as well. all the fuck-ups you've done, all the mistakes you've done, you can still see that you've still got a hat, you've still got remorse, you've still got empathy. To escape all those prisons, to go and see your family, yes, you put yourself in prison, you've got to take responsibility for that. But to the things that you've done, and even coming on today, and every time I've spoke to you, it'd be nothing but nice.

1:44:43How is it? I mean, even my girlfriend's had a guy at me several times giving money to beggars in the street you know but although a lot of them are scamming and they turned it into a business now and they're begging but some of them are genuine you know and you do feel for them but Where do you go for here going forward for the future? Unless you don't know it's whatever happens happens you know I just want to try and improve me health a bit more get back the way I was and live the rest of my life in peace for anybody that's maybe watching that's maybe thinking about being a bad man or trying to be a gangster or think they're tough what advice would you give for them I've got no fucking tolerance whatsoever for these wannabe gangsters or carpool gangsters as you used to call them you know it's all meaningless it's all it's all the bad emotions that people and vanity and glory just be humble and treat other people the way you want to be treated yourself

1:46:19and because there are a lot of people that turn to crime they don't know where to draw not that line never to step below you know you have you have to have a limit if you are determined to be a criminal put a limit on it you know try and keep it to the Robin Hood effect rather than making everybody's life a misery and destroying things Did the penny ever drop John when you were in prison all the stuff that you had done and you came to realisation that you did cause a lot of pain or did that take time or did you know instantly

1:47:10No You know, it always came afterwards because once that fucking red mist comes down on you, you know, half the time you've done the damage before you've even realised it. It's afterwards. And, er, I don't know. I mean I've had people look at me and think oh even now look at that old cunt he's got a great beard he's got a great mug and next thing you know you're looking up down there and when they're on the fucking deck and say oh I didn't mean it mate it's too fucking late there you know I don't know I don't even know what I'm talking about before we finish up would you like to finish up on anything John?

1:48:09yeah I'd like someone to answer the question why I'm not entitled to a state pension after being forced to work compulsory for 40 odd years for slave wages yeah so I'll leave a link or an email address where people can contact you If you're supposedly welcomed back into the fold and you've paid your debt to society, why is it then that I'm ostracized? I'm not allowed to say for it. I can't go on programs like Who Wants to Me a Millionaire because of my past history. Why? I paid my debt. Have you seen recently that certain criminals have won the lottery and there's this big clamour for somebody to want to grab it and deprive them of it and put it towards the victim's father.

1:49:06If a guy went and bought his ticket, the same money as you paid, why is he not entitled to the winnings? No. So you're never really welcome back. You've always been known as an ex-robber, an ex-killer, an ex-this, an ex-that. you never get accepted by society fully. How would you like to be remembered?

1:49:41For not giving in. I think we'll finish up on that, John. Listen, for coming on today and telling your story, I thoroughly enjoyed it. It's been a mad rollercoaster of emotions in your whole life. I couldn't cover all of it in this time. you can't cover 43 years of course you can't we've got all the bits that think people can know your story understand you and for anybody that's maybe wanting to help I'll leave an email address that can maybe reach out maybe try and get you a bit of work maybe try and see what you can do with this pension because there's so many people who watch these programmes that are willing to help people and give people a second chance and see where they can go I've had a couple of solicitors intentionally venture into it but they all seem to get dismayed by the I think a lot of it goes back to the Factories Act in virtual almost medieval days where prisoners had no rights but those laws should be looked at because we're now in the 21st century and they should be changed John, I wish you all the best for the future, God bless you and thanks for giving me your time today Thank you James, been a pleasure You