Unbreakable - The SAS Who Didn’t Back Down - Melvyn Downes Tells All

43:28And I understand why, because then when the shit hits the pan and rounds are coming down at you and you're in fire, under fire, automatically you kick into that drill. So when somebody tells you to move, you move and so on and do a right flanking, left flanking. Yeah, but to me, I got a lot of experience out of it. So I thought to myself, I'd already been in the military for 12 years. I've done three tours of duty of Northern Ireland. One as a private, one as a corporal in charge of eight guys, another as a sergeant in charge of the full multiple. That's a lot of guys. And then a full-on war, armoured infantry war.

44:09So by the time I went for the SAS, I thought, right, I've got a lot of experience. But I tell you what, within about 18 months, you've sort of done more uh than you've done in all in the previous 12 years but the biggest difference is it's all informal everybody knows everybody by name uh there's no none of this bullshit no saluting and marching or anything you haven't got time for that and it's it's it's none of that you know uh you're there to do a job and it's an operational job or training to do this job and you know when you're getting sent you cut you see you're getting sent to strategic level you know if you fuck up this could be it calls these big problems and indications all around the world and that doesn't mean there's lots of you going out you can be sent out as an individual you can send to be sent out as somewhere as twos or even just four of you you'd be surprised what's going on around the world and amount of the responsibility you've got whereas when you're doing normal army you're sort of a tactical level this is like strategic level they put you out there.

45:09So it really is a fantastic job and I take my eyes off. We are the best. That's the British military is the best in the world. Well, we're the best country for start. So we've got the best military in the world, not many of them. And then we've got the best special forces in the world. So we are the best and we should be proud of it. So when you'd done the golf, what was it like losing a brother for the first time? yeah that was the first time i saw somebody actually kill i've had somebody killed and friends killed in northern ireland but to watch it happen in front of the eyes he actually got hit by an rpg warhead you know the full warhead hit him in the chest and killed him outright and then he took the vehicle this is about 50 meters away from us but it's just surreal watching it happen but you you was then still interested in your part as well there's still other stuff going So you still had to carry on your advance, if you know what I mean.

46:08And it was only later on when we found out who it was and what happened. And then we had to just carry on anyway, because this was, I don't know, maybe on about day two and he didn't stop till day four. So we just had to move, just carried on. But what I do remember is we were told to bury people out wherever they were hit or killed and then mark the area with a GPS. you know we had body bags given us and that's when you knew it was really serious that when they give you a pile of body bags in the vehicle and then uh but our boss he said no our sergeant major said no he's coming with us you know they won't so they did but they won't bury him there they brought him carried him with us so does your family get a heads up for that to say listen if i die here my body's not coming back i i don't know it's because his bodies they they came back yeah but the ones who were saying just bury would they have just been left there for good or would they have been back and got them no because they said like if anybody dies you just bury them straight there and crack on but you'd mark the grave with your GPS so eventually back and get them yeah that's so much oh fuck it's scary they want to drive in a truck with body bags thinking right who's going in this and when you were told when you were told that as well but that's how you know that a lot of the military a lot of the boys and the troops they are fucked up in the head like that's not normal to say listen i've got a car parked out here there's body bags in it not everybody's coming home but yet everybody jumps in and that's it that's why you've got a dark sense humor in the military when you when you're dealing with life and death i always remember my friend he got out the military and he says bring something back from the gulf war he was writing to me and i said and i says i've got you something mate and he goes what have you got there's like a golden weapon or something like you know he thought it was i goes no it's really valuable and then I brought him and we met him in the pub and we're all having the drink and I'll pop up and he goes come on where's the present, what have you got me and I brought him back a body bag so we had to get in it then on the long seats and you know we made him line this body bag for about 20 minutes but as you say you need that dark humour to get you through like anything because humour is the best medicine, laughter is the best medicine but it's having to laugh in uncomfortable situations you know Which kind of gets you through But I guess That's the one thing about men Like we go through so much different things in life Like women will never truly understand What a man truly battles You know with the thought process And never feeling good enough And always competing And trying to survive And trying to provide And listen women do amazing things But men bottle everything up No matter who you are We keep it all within And they'll never know the true depths Of what a man's truly feeling But when you're with Like the most I've ever laughed The most I'll laugh is when I'm with The boys through the past And it was fucked up times you know It was a lot of drink, there was a lot of drugs, there was a lot of madness But it was some of the best times Because there was more of a connection That people understood you You don't get that when you're Doing things alone or when you're kind of Trying to do things you know Like when you're surrounded with people Who are just as fucked up as you It makes life okay And also So when you, all the difficult times you've gone through together, at the end of it, and you go back and talk to your mates now and everything, it's just a laugh.

49:31And that banter, that British banter gets us through it. And how David Sterling, his ethos, everybody who gets into the SES has got to live by this ethos or know it. I didn't know it, I heard it, but I didn't realise that everybody sort of lives by that afterwards. And that's a part of that is a sense of humour. He says you've got to have a sense of humour. You've also got to have classlessness, humility, integrity, and the pursuit of excellence. And that's, if you think of all them, it's just fantastic. The classlessness, that means you can get on with anybody. What race, religion, whatever. You know, you can get on with them.

50:08Humility, nobody likes somebody who's a big head. Everybody's got that humility. Integrity, that's massive. If you break that trust, there's no coming back. you know in a relationship somebody's done a date on you you'll never trust them again so trust is everything and believe you me sometimes we fuck up in the sas people have forgot stuff and everything but you can't hide it you've got to put your hand up and or if you dropped a bollock you've dropped a bollock you know you've got to have that integrity and then the pursuit of excellence that's what i say to kids and that because i talked to some schools and that you've got pursue excellence means you can get what you want in life but you've got to fucking work for it.

50:50Whether that's practicing order, training order, studying order, you know, you don't get anything for nothing. And then once you've done something, you've got to think, right, don't sit back on your walls and think, right, I can do better. Whether it's run faster, whether it's study better, wherever it is, always improve yourself. And that's the, you know, the pursuit of excellence. Don't just think, right, I've done enough now. You know, you can go faster, run faster, study harder. If you want to be a lawyer, it's going to be a lot harder for you if you come from a rough council hours in this day but you can do it if you really want to it means getting yours down to these libraries and everything but you can you can do more than what you think you can and that's physically and mentally so it's a great ethos see after your first tour was there anything in place to come back to speak to anyone about the deaths that you'd seen the shootings was there any anything to kind of decompose decompress no not not back then it was just the case of when anything you just go on a piss which i suppose is the worst thing really was that much suicide back then yeah well in my group yeah because i know it's right later on these sort of people but while i was in i had a good friend one of the lads who was with me for five and a half months in that vehicle who i thought i knew back to front and then afterwards he was with me on another island tour i you know i went really close with him he just he owned himself and he was only he was still in his teens and and i was just going on selection then i'm like god almighty i managed to get back for the funeral on the weekend but i'm like what the what what the fuck's happened and uh yeah and he was one he was one of the people who actually i hate to say this but and his death his death sort of spared me on selection because I'd be thinking of him, you know, because he goes to me at the time, he goes, Sarge, if anybody gets in the SES, you will.

52:42And he had like, there's a bit of flax. And so I'm like this, right, I'm doing this for you, flax. And I had another mate who was killed, and I thought, right, I'm doing this for my mates and stuff like that. That was part of my... Fall has never looked or tasted this good. Sweet Greens Fall Harvest Menu is back with seasonal favourites dressed to impress and made to be devoured. Warm roasted sweet potatoes, crisp apples, maple glazed Brussels, and crave-worthy flavors in the autumn harvest bowl, maple glazed salmon plate, and roasted bacon Brussels side. The season's most desirable menu has returned to Sweetgreen, featuring fall's best dressed.

53:21Make your move. Order on the Sweetgreen app. Sierra has all the best active and outdoor brands you need. From athletic stuff, like a full-court pickup game, swish, to athletic-ish stuff, like a half-mile stroll. Get those steps in. And for morning hikes up the mountain trail, good pace, to nighttime ghost stories from the camping chair. What a twist. Whatever level of active, Sierra loves it all. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins.

53:59Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. A way of pushing me on, you know, you're not letting people down. Well, yeah, there is bad things happening. But I think now there's a lot more talking and especially in the special forces and the SS. fucking hell nobody nobody would ever talk about anything like that you know it'd just crack on you'd have a you've killed people only doing your job and then you've done your job you just you have a good drink together and away you go and you know that's how it is but I would imagine the SES to be like that fucking shut up get on with it you know I guess that's why it makes them elite and I always mention Peter Makulis I interviewed Peter He was S.E.S.

54:55S.E.S. S.B.S. S.E.S. And Peter was the man Who was supposed to kill Escobar And his helicopter crashed I interviewed him In the old folks home And I was saying to him Peter like Do you have any regrets? He says do I fuck I was there to do a job I got a mission And I done it to the best of my ability He still had the twinkle in his eye He still just owned it A lot of people Sometimes I think when you can Dwell into it And look into it and try and unravel it all. I think that's when your mind can completely go. But he says, I've done what I've done. I don't have any regrets. And I would do it again.

55:28And I thought, you weren't fucking good on you. I would do it again in an heartbeat. I would, because at the end of the day, I can sit back. I've done everything to the best of my ability. And anybody I killed was either enemy combatants who were in uniform and they would try and kill me. So that's, you know, that's legitimate. Or they were terrorists, insurgents, war criminals. They were even worse. They are scum because they hide them. They go, they will put an IED out and then just get back into civilian clothes and stuff like that. So yeah. And to me, I've killed a few of them. So I've done the world a favor because it is genuinely evil.

56:14And that's what people can't understand. Sometimes you've got fire with fire. they don't realize you everybody can't be rehabilitated there's some genuine evil evil people out there and unless you've been out to these situations and you know and you've met or you've dealt with some evil gets then people that realize and i'm talking about people who just butchers basically and you know they keep people get them in boiler suits and yeah cut off the heads and you know you know the scum scum of the earth see I was interviewing a sniper from Wales actually Ted good kid he was a sniper but he was saying as well like these war criminals are the human trafficking of kids the drugs forcing families to grow the drugs on the farms and stuff like it's a lot of that stuff so for me soldier soldiers fair game war criminals I think that's just easy pickings I think easy like I wouldn't lose sleep over killing people who are destroying the world and abusing kids Like for me that's easy work But then again you say that Until you put a bullet in someone's head And then obviously the nightmares might kick in But I think sometimes in a service Like I'll say a dead paedophile Is someone who can't re-offend Like for me it's public execution For people who harm kids I think it's important for people to realise That we're not accepting that But now again sentences are too lenient You know for people In this wickedness of the world What was your tour of Ireland like?

57:42well it depends which one i went on three tours and i saw different areas you know and i found the area of at the time when it was in south armar that was a really at the time it was known as bandit country it was a real rough area on on the borders because they could take pop shots at you and put ids and then just get straight back across the border and that was quite difficult but i always remember a story about that i was i'm walking along on a patrol and one of the this Irish guy goes to shout at me, he goes, what are you doing here, soldier boy? I goes, I'm just doing my job. And he goes, no, but you.

58:19And this is in the early 80s, and I goes, I'm just doing my job. He goes, yeah, but you, you're black. And he goes, back in the UK, this is when all race riots are going on. He goes, they don't look like you. You were getting pushed, put down and everything. And he lived on a Catholic estate. And I must admit, the Catholic states, they seem more run down than the Protestants' estates. and it got me thinking that you know he's thinking right okay i'm i'm a soldier i'm uh doing this for my country and yet there was a lot of race riots going on and but you know black people this is the time again in the national front not banging on about that all the time but it was all that sort of stuff going on i'm like yeah it did get me thinking just a third brief moment and i just cracked on but yeah why wouldn't it get you thinking though you're fighting for a country who a lot of people at the National Front hate blacks.

59:13Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So you're fighting for these people who are fighting against you. Yeah. Like it is an important question to ask and think like, what the fuck am I doing? I'm a young 19 year old now thinking this. And also there was parts of the army back then, there were no blacks were allowed in. You didn't see them. Even though they were allowed in from the 1968, they never got in. There was one black guy getting in the guard regiment and it was something like 19, I think 86 or something like that because my friend i know the guy who's as platoon commander he's very fierce platoon commander and he got bullied out of it and so we took over from a gorge regiment and i'm like thinking i'm not even allowed to go into them gorge units there's a certain regiment where you wouldn't see a black face it's not now that they can go anywhere but that was back then so i did get them thinking i'm in the british army yeah parts of the british army i couldn't even go in It's crazy, isn't it?

1:00:06And this is in my lifetime. Yeah, that's fucked up. That's some 1600 shit. Did you ever watch the movie Men of Honor? No. It was Robert De Niro. Was it Robert De Niro or Al Pacino? And it was the... It was... Good and Cuban Junior. It was a diver. Yeah. He lost his leg and ended up the best diver ever. But he couldn't get in anywhere. He was standing outside the gate for days on end. and eventually let him in for the training and he'd done everything he could to jeopardise his training so he would fail and he passed he never broke he stood tall and became one of the greatest divers of all time he actually lost his leg as well and got the medal of honor he got the top medal you can get oh it was in America I forget I think it is the medal of honor innit it might be but it was an unbelievable movie unbelievable but again it shows you what people have to go through and because he has courage and strength and then open the doors for other people to follow suit.

1:01:06Yeah, yeah. You know, so, but it must make you question that you're fighting for people who are then fighting against you because of your skin colour and you're there to protect these people. Yeah, it's a bit confusing. But then, as I say, it's just a tiny minority. It's always the same. A tiny minority can spoil it for the majority and, you know, people are people. How are you treated in Ireland? Pardon? What was the saying? No dogs, no blacks, no Irish, no... Yeah, the saying, when my dad came across as well, it was like, no blacks, no dogs, no Irish. You're screwed if you're a black Irish wolfhound, aren't you?

1:01:43Tell me when I interviewed someone from the British Army, they said the British were there to help the Irish, not to help the Protestants. I know, obviously, we had the IRA and the British Army, then the hate between each other, but was the British Army sent there to bring peace? Yeah, they were there for everyone, you know? It was just that, as I said, I saw the Catholic estates. They seemed worse than the Protestants' estates. And obviously, being in the military, there was really, what was it, the Ulster Defence Association or the UDA. And so there was bad paramilitary loyalist groups as well as bad paramilitary Catholics.

1:02:21Yeah, on both sides. Yeah, yeah, the IRA and the UDA. To me, they were all scum, these terrorists. Fucking hell. So I would... But how do you feel when they call you a terrorist? Oh, God. Did you get that? Yeah, I've had it from on the Catholic side and that. But it was just weird because you go to one, you could cross the streets in one area and then it's like the Protestants there or the Union Jacks flying and they're giving you cups of tea and biscuits and all the rest of it and you're safe. And then you go across to the other side of the estate and they just hate you being there. You know, they've got a trick of the flying.

1:02:58it's just a different yeah tricolor it's just a different divide and in a way you know you see it in football teams and everything and still I mean is it Celtic and Rangers it's a lot of a lot of hatred it's so bad yeah in different areas Celtic Rangers will never change it's kind of stopped the singing as much because the singing was pure hatred but I've got to be honest I do hate the hatred when it's during the game like I hate the kind of conflict because we're men we're fucking but hunters do you know what I'm saying where it's tribalism like you support your own but because I've felt with family members for weeks on end and friends because of the bitterness of football scores but it's after it and realising okay wait a minute this is stupid but I think why the Celtic Rangers game is so popular is because of the hatred for each other from the Protestants and the Catholics for Celtic and the Irish and Rangers being British and patriotic and the Queen but the divide is massive I don't It's nowhere near as bad as it used to be With the hatred It's a lot of calmed down now Like I say, even during the matches Used to have all the songs And it was, listen I fucking loved it when I grew up, man I loved the hatred If I'm honest, but as you get older You realise the divide is bollocks You realise that's what they want, everybody hate each other From religions, from sports teams Everybody Has got that divide, they have got that divide And that's what makes us easier to control yeah but you know on the football i like football i love football love going i'm a stoke city supporter and uh yeah but i don't like all the the violence not but just the banter with the banter with different songs and stuff like that because we played wrexham the other day and the idea i blow sheep and all you see the sheep getting bounced back and even the Wrexham supporters were having a laugh about it.

1:04:54You know, that type of banter. We don't get that in Glasgow though. We get fucking killings. We get stabbing. We get brutality. We get pure hatred because people genuinely believe in Britain, people genuinely believe there's people in Glasgow, born in Glasgow, believe they're Irish because they support Celtic, you know, so we've got pure hatred when it comes to the old firm. I was raised in that so I don't see any different. Like English support is different from Scottish support. like you can have friendly jokes up there it's fucking pure hatred when it's Old Firm Day like it's madness like they hate for each other has it calmed down?

1:05:32I believe it has but it could kick off like what happened in Ireland I used to always think it could happen in Scotland you know because of the Celtic yeah because of Celtic Rangers connection and that's how sad it is and when you look at the Irish killing the Irish it is sad it's heartbreaking killing your own all because of divide because people want to be British people want to be Irish and I can see arguments on both sides why doesn't Ireland want to be independent why wouldn't it want to be a free country same as Scotland as well you know I can see the arguments but they're easy to be controlled because of the football team and religions support yeah it's crazy and as I said I remember going over to Ireland and still on the first tour then a few years later another tour and then again as a sergeant and I still didn't understand all the political, you know, infighting and everything.

1:06:25You're just there as a soldier to do a job and that's protecting everyone, as far as I'm concerned, and you're protecting your country, you know? What's the worst thing you've seen in Ireland? In Ireland, I said it. I haven't seen... I've had a mate killed over there, but I haven't seen really bad atrocities in Ireland, you know? I know they've been there, but... No, I've done cordons for when they've gone off, but I haven't had any full-on ding-dongs. Like when I was out with the news crews and working in Baghdad, once I left the SAS, I swear I saw some really carnage. I saw a lot in the SAS, don't get me wrong.

1:07:03And even in the first Gulf War, we stopped on the Basra Road and that was just like a six-lane highway and soldiers being shot up and bombed. And there were just bodies everywhere. We had to stay there for a couple of days and it was just stinking. It was just corpses after corpse, you know. but going over to Iraq this time not as a soldier because I was in the Iraq as a within the SES and if you would have killed doing your job in the SES in Iraq you would have been coming home as there was a said oh hero he's died doing his job but then when you go over there to make some money when you leave the SES with other SES guys so you're all you're armed you've weapons and I was looking after news crews, it was a case of, oh, if they died over there, they were just a mercenary.

1:07:50But you just, that was our skill level. You go to there and make the money. But at this time, when I left, it was like, this was like, I was there from 2000 and, well, end of 2005. I had four and a half years and it was when the bombs were going off everywhere. And I mean, we weren't living in the secure green zone. We was with the press and living outside of the secure green zone, living in this hotel, and so that got blown up. But the press, they go straight out, and you'd be with them in just low profile cars, so you can get in somewhere and get back out without being recognized that much. And they'd go in.

1:08:30So as soon as a massive car bomb went off, we'd just be racing there and just seeing the aftermath and try and get reports about it. And the carnage then was just unreal. MARK BLYTHER This was close protection? JOHN MCCUTCHANN Yeah. MARK BLYTHER Did you just have the media? Yeah, we had the media tops and that, but a lot of times you should just get there and without media tops, because we just wanted blend in. And it was just because at the time they wanted, the terrorists, they wanted to get an American journalist in an orange boiler suit. So they were a massive target. And I was looking after American news crew.

1:09:06So there was only two of us. Two guys would go out with a news team. So you'd go out with a cameraman and a sound man in one car, and the correspondent to the other car, and you'd have a racket driver in both cars, and then you'd go with them, and you were their protection. But it's all in civvies. You'd have a pistol down your pants, and you'd have a long rifle, an M4 rifle, and a tripod bag. So if anybody's seen you, they think you're just all part of this news crew. And then as soon as they see the Western news crew, and especially if you're in a really bad area, you see people getting on the bat phones, wanting to get the telling up.

1:09:41Just by being situational awareness, having your eyes on the ground and looking at what's happening around you, that it's time to move now, you know what I mean? Because we've been clocked here for too long. And you had no protection apart from yourselves. And then at any time, they could have been out there and tried to kidnap you. So we had some really close escapes out in Ireland, I swear. But it was really weird because I'd see my friends, the SAS, who were still in, say, in the green zone, the secure zone, and they'd be going out on missions, dangerous missions, you know, of a night, and then coming back.

1:10:19So they're going on the offensive, but we were sort of on the defensive. So we're going on dangerous places, same areas where they go, but trying to report news. And they say, fucking hell, man, you're mad. There's only two of you. We go in a big load of us trying to get these bad people in these bad areas and you go in just a couple of you and sometimes I used to pinch myself and think yeah it is a bit fucked up man so after your tours then what was the decision to join the SAS after 10 years? I wanted to join the SAS well before why didn't you? because again this is going back to the old quality thing I was going to put in for it and we had guys because I was there was only I was the second ever bloke in my regiment to get in the SAS there was one officer got it in as well so altogether ever where from when our unit was formed in 1959 when it was amalgamated the Staffordshire Regiment there was only there was only ever three blokes got in two blokes and one officer and as I said I was the second ever bloke now a few more of them got in once I got got in but I remember nobody knew anything about the SES but I remember seeing about them and obviously in the early 80s when you saw the the balcony go off and there on the Iranian embassy and that I thought oh I want some of this and i was gonna put my paperwork in but this one guy we had a lot of people go for it but nobody get in they come back with horror stories and this guy come back and i goes i won't go for the ss he goes you can't i goes why is that he goes because you're black i was what's that got to do with it he goes because they do all the undercover work in northern ireland they have to sit in bars and belfast and getting information i thought oh yeah that's the sort of stuff they do then oh i can't go so i thought nothing of it it's just so happened that we had an officer come to our unit and he was ex-SAS he did two years because the officers just do two years and then they come back to their original unit to maybe go back again and he's coming and saw me and he goes a couple of hours have you ever thought about going to the SAS by this time before corporal and that you've done really well I goes yeah but I can't and he goes why not and I told him the story he just pissed himself laughing he goes of course you couldn't be sitting in a balfast bar you haven't got ginger and freckles for fuck's sake he goes but they'll go everything they go all around the world it's totally different go for it so this was like about five years from when a previous week was getting put in for it i'm like i never gone for it i most probably would have never gone for it if this officer hadn't had told me so that's how little we knew about it so i went for it and uh yeah fortunately i got in and i never looked back i I enjoyed every minute of it.

1:12:52And I enjoyed all my military career, but the SES was just something different. It really was. Because when you're behind enemy lines, you look back, there's only so much you can do. And you're behind enemy lines in the desert area. You're in just a few vehicles, and you are just like... It's like going back to original David Sterling's days. You're riding around, but you've got a few quality blokes, and you're in the rear echelons, and you were hitting massive units over the night time and then moving out. You just stun them. You know what I mean? It was just like something from Mad Max. It's in these areas and what we did out there.

1:13:32You create, have it. You know, they thought they were getting it by lots of people there, I mean, a battalion or whatever. And it was just small units sticking, but it's got to have quality guys in there. And then we get brought into Baghdad and you're doing the same again. You're not just on one-house raids. sometimes it was two three house raids a day it was crazy what was the training like training for the sas what do you mean once i've got it once you started yeah training for selection because i know you go to the jungle and stuff and you do all the holes and running selection part was was extremely difficult it really was and but everybody thinks it's all about the mountain side don't get me wrong to get rid of a lot of people on that because i don't care who you are and how much you train when you're doing it every single day up these mountains and you're tabbing you don't know how far you you've got to go and all you know is that every day is your packs are getting heavier and heavier and you're just slogging your guts off get trying to find your way from one checkpoint to another and then sometimes you think you're finished and then you'll go all night and then you think you're finished again and then you'll go all day again and it's just not they're not knowing and nobody tells you you're doing well nobody tells you you're doing shit you know i mean and again you in the normal military used to being told if you drop a bollock or doing crap they usually tell you or if you're doing well they might even smile out you're there it's all bland they don't even want to know your name you're just a number to tell you the truth but once you because if you think about it somebody you'd have to be extremely fit and really dedicated.

1:15:02But if you could tab with a lot of equipment, okay, and you were very good at navigation and you've got that determination, you might be able to pass the else phase. But it's afterwards then when you go into the jungle, that's when they really start looking at you. Because you have to be at the soldiering as well. You have to be a soldier. And this is where one instructor look at about four of you and you watch 24-7. You're stuck in that jungle canopy where everything wants to sting your bite, you stab, you're stinking. And you're watched all the time. And even when you think you're not being watched of a night, sometimes you hear a little movement and one of the DS will be in there and be looking for night vision goggles.

1:15:41Because he's looking for the people as well who are working when nobody's there. You know what I mean? They aren't looking for the DS watchers. They're looking for the guys who were working as a team and helping each other and so on, not just being Jack and helping the sales. So that's sort of one of the main areas where you're picked. How many started the selection process with you? Mine was well over a couple of hundred. I'd best not say the exact number, because they don't really like you saying that. But there's always top of them. There's always well over 200. And at the end, there was an handful of us, just six SAS and four SPS and then a couple office so no it was the two officers they were involved about 10 of us finished at the end it was hardly anybody what was the hardest process for you what was the hardest day for you did you ever think about quitting oh i thought about quitting uh everybody thinks about cream but not so much on the ills because everybody gets you get sores your back so your body so you're just aching all the time you know uh to me the hardest part was the interrogation because you've put it this way on the physical side you push to your breaking point your physical limit where you can't go on anymore it's designed to do it that way but not not not injure unfortunately some people have actually died doing the ss course you know maybe through uh getting lost and getting going down and with hyperthermia or it's exhaustion but because they really push you so but they don't want anybody injured or die obviously but they push it up to that breaking point but on the interrogation side you it's they try and push your mind but without breaking it if you know understand what i mean because we are prone to being captured behind enemy lines obviously so you've got to be able to remember a cover story and not give away valuable information for so long and then they can change all the codes or anything if they've not heard from you so it really is difficult so you you you go through this process of going on the run for many days and nights without any food and being hunted by police dog handlers helicopters the infantry units and you've got nothing you've got no food no nothing and if you get to say you've done i don't know how many miles through the night so it's a lot of miles to get to a checkpoint and if you get there they give you one piece of bread and a tiny bit of cheese and then you go on to the next checkpoint so the idea is you move all the way through the night and then in the daytime you just bury yourself in in the shittiest place you can you know areas where it's all marsh or full of stingy nettles and you just lie there all day freezing cold and wet getting you know trying to trying not to be located by dogs and people look out looking for you because if they capture you then you'll get beastied for a few hours and you get sent out again so you don't get captured and but at the end of doing this for so many days and nights several days and nights uh you're completely knackered there's nothing left in you and then you go into interrogation for 36 hours and that's just like god it's mind-numbing because your mind just has gone because you've got white noise you've got blindfolds on and you've got flashing lights and you can see the lights through your blindfold and then you've got a noise just like a big white noise and it's so loud and you're just in these stress positions and you're in agony and every now and again they'll just grab you and take you into a room pull your blindfold off and then start interrogating you and for instance i remember just getting interrogated and the person i'm talking to the head was just turning to mickey mouse i'm talking to a fucking big mouse here because you was hallucinating.

1:19:35Serious. But I've told the story - What the fuck was on the cheese, bro? I don't know. I've told the story a few times. One of the funniest parts though, was they had this woman in there interrogator and I was like, God almighty, I was completely knackered. And previous to this, my mate who I met on the run, we were both on the run together. He went down to this farmhouse. Now you shouldn't be allowed. If you were anywhere 200 meters near a building or a road, you kicked it off the entire course but he went down to the bins try get some food because we knew we needed some energy we hadn't had anything even many days and nights and he come running back and had this jar of salad cream well a squeezy plastic thing with about a third of jala not full about a third of the full up of this salad cream and i had to look at the label it was out of date for a long time i goes i'm not eating that and he got a stick and he's dipping and he's like, come on, come on, bro.

1:20:32I thought, no, I can't do that. It's minging. You know, it's stinking. Anyway, I was on this interrogation and this, yeah, the woman interrogated, this, it will all come together in a minute. Yeah, this woman and she was interrogating me and she had lots of perfume on and she had this black tight top. They all like had black tops on and all that, but she had a big chest on it and she was really gorgeous. Like I'm a young lad now. I'm like, I'm trying to think of something else. so i undress here in my mind now i'm completely naked at this time and as i'm standing there i undress there and just like i'm thinking of it next minute all the blood gets straight to my loins so i suddenly get bone on i'm like oh shit and she just burst out she's going ah get that dirty nigga out here but then she burst out laughing and i started laughing even though i was we've totally got to take it serious and i thought oh god they're going to kick me off the course and he pulled me out this put the blindfold on me again brought me outside somewhere and got a freezing cold hose pipe on me I'm naked getting all this freezing cold water on me and then in my mind I knew I had 36 hours of interrogation you know even with a blindfold on and what they teach you I was trying to think how long I've got left and because you've got no idea of time I remember the guards used to change over because you smell I was smelling a different guard and then another guard would change over and so I thought in my mind they're doing stags of about they're doing shifts of four hours so I was clocking up a time appreciation thinking right I've I've not got long left because you know it finishes say 11 o 'clock on the on the on the morning after 36 hours and and this was in July when I did mine so I thought I had in my mind I thought I've got about four hours left I thought it was about eight o 'clock and he's finishing at 11 something like that and in my mind I thought I'm nearly there I'm nearly there because there's a breaking point I was in agony anyway when you get me outside and they put this hose pipe on me and it lifted up my mask up and it was still dark now in July it gets light about what or four or five so to me I'm like fuck it out it's about 11 o 'clock at night I've still got another 12 hours eight hours I thought that broke me then I thought I can't go on anymore I knew I could go on for about four hours I thought I nearly put my hand up and they put me back in the stress position and I was in agony and next minute I hear somebody else getting pulled in and you know which one of your lads and he was crying he was he was crying like a baby and I thought who's that and this guy who I met up who got the salad cream he had he was a very funny looking guy he was from the SBS he had a but he had a complete bald head ear on top but he had hair all around the side instead of shaving it all or getting it really low look normal he had it growing and it's growing out and because he'd been on the run for about seven days and nights when i saw him it was all over the plate he looked like crushed the clown you know of the simpsons and i remember seeing him thinking fuck it ah you look so weird like a mad professor so all i could have and then what i thought i was thinking who the hell is that now in a he's crying like a baby he's in a worse state than me because I just felt like giving up.

1:23:44And then all I got was this whiff of salad cream. I thought, that's Krusty. That's the mad professor, you know? So his agony sort of gave me a bit more drive and got me through it. It's a strange way, isn't it? But, yeah. Why do they use the women for the interrogation and the SES election? Is that to, for the hallucinations? Like you say, you must have been the only one to get a hard on in SES election because the majority of people are struggling. It just shows you how fit you are, brother, how much testosterone you've actually got. But what's the process? What's the meaning behind that? Bringing a woman in, tits out, kind of lipstick, smells good.

1:24:21What is the process behind that? Well, before I get to that, why I got an oil on? Because I was out living in the woods and running, getting chased by an enemy for seven days a night or wherever it was. And I never actually had one. I had one, yeah. So by the time I got there, I had a great big bollock bag. and then suddenly there's a beautiful girl and a woman with a nice perfume. But no, I don't know. But we do have women interrogators and that because they're fantastic. And sometimes, you know, some people, for instance. But it's man's biggest weakness. Yeah. If you get a good looking woman, man, it can destroy many men.

1:25:01So it's a perfect acting in my eyes. I don't think it was that. I was thinking it sort of embarrasses people because this woman was making me strip naked, make me turn around, touch my toes, pull your butt cheeks apart. I thought, after seven days now, I wouldn't like to see that. You know what I mean? I'm like, okay. Whereas some officers before, and some people in the past have said, I've had enough, I can't, I've been too humiliated. And that has happened. You know, you think, fucking hell, it's only, it's not for real. You know, can you, can you separate it from being real and being training?

1:25:32Can you, do you actually think that maybe you have been captured? Does that have us thinking? Yeah. Yeah, well, we had to treat it as if we had been captured. We couldn't, you know, we were told we got to take this deadly serious. And you do. So I was thinking it was all for real and that, you know. But if that was for real, I would have still thought this woman had still got an odd on and must have already got them sapling, you know, strung up. But yeah, that was a young guy. So what happens after the interrogation? Yeah, and then once we've done that, you basically say, right, okay, you're passing.

1:26:04But it's not a big parade. just like chucking your berry to you and it goes right down you're going to d squadron somebody else is going to a squadron because we've got four saber squadrons they're the fighting squadrons all the same but they just push around wherever they need people there's no big parade or anything and this officer he goes just make sure you beat the clock i thought what the fuck does he mean and he's never been he's only been about a the odd year where nobody has had the name put on the clock tower now if you get killed on operations or in training you get your name on the clock tower and so that's what they mean by beating the clock because we've got like this big clock what we it's like a regimental clock and yeah so i beat the clock were you proud was there ever a moment you felt proud was your mom dad were they still alive yeah they were both still alive my dad didn't know i was in the ss for a good three years why because i never told him and i was really i didn't tell anyone it was just that because i as i said nobody got in from my unit i got in most of my unit my old unit a lot of them are from stoke-on-trent so people start to know each other and start talking and some of the lads on my estate a lot of people on the estate were in the military and in my unit so my dad got to hear about it and he had to ask me if i was in the sas and i told him and he's so proud of me being in the army anyway he just i used to get embarrassed sometimes you go home having a drink with him he's like my son is in the you know i'm like dad come on leave it out so when i go on the sas he was just over the moon why didn't you tell him that was in the ss yeah to be proud that you finished one of the hardest training in the world to be like it made him proud that like because it's like you say he was proud you'd be in the army never mind the elite yeah like why what was stopping you from telling him i didn't telling because you shouldn't really tell anyone and you know you obviously were just following the code of honor i was just filling the the code yeah so yeah now i'm out people say oh should you not talk about that i says i was on the tv show for uh what was broadcast i've had me had above the parapet so i had to talk obviously i will only tell you what i can tell you i'll never jeopardize national security and because these people out there now looking after us all the time the sas are doing a great job and i've got nothing but respect for them and people don't realize they're keeping this country safe uh yeah so you can sleep you know happy in your beds of the night time and i'd never jeopardize that but i do believe that that and people say oh you've got a book yeah but that's just my story there's a lot most of there's nothing in my book what is not public knowledge I have to go through the Ministry of Defence and through the SAS disclosure cell to get my book published do you see what I mean so I would never disclose any secret information but it's just just my life basically and it was only after the book was finished that people said wow that's that's such a resilient book I didn't think I didn't do it be a resilient Duke.

1:29:04I just did it about my life and if it helps some people, in fact, it's great. But you seem a man of honour, you seem a man of code, you seem a man of principles, and if you had a regiment or you had a platoon or whatever, you would want you in it, you know, because of your respect, your resilience, never quitting. Like, it's a beautiful thing to have. Yeah, I like that because to me, I was lucky, I've had my dad, you know, I grew up with still both parents in an household and I was just, I loved my dad to try and my mom, but my dad, he was the old Jamaican culture. If I were ever back chatting my mom, it would be the balt off and you get a balt, you know me?

1:29:46And this was in the day when we get the cane still at schools and everything, you know? And so I was scared of him and he said, if you ever bring the police or you back chat your mom that's it and you know he would that would be a big no-no so one thing i was just scared of bringing the police around to me i was saying they didn't want jeopardized getting in the army and this was at the time and all my mates well not all of them a lot of the lads in my peer group were going out robbing factories and houses and stuff like that and i'd never do and i'd never done that as anyway because i remember what it was like when i got my house bagel but they were saying come on mal just just come with us and keep luke out and everything and they just didn't and i'm glad because they all got caught and did time and borstles and all the rest of it but well yeah but i had the main reason i didn't do it i had that principles from my dad like you know i mean no when did you have your first kill was that before sas or after well i was in the first gulf war but you don't know really if you killed anyone that you know you're firing or certain people but you don't know if they're going down but in the sas you you do you simply it's inevitable it's not if it's when because at the end of the days it's like being a striker the sas at the top tier so to me it's like a premiership team but being the premiership striker that's what they are and you won't be a very good striker after 12 years if you haven't scored many goals and i don't mean that in a in a bragging way but it's inevitable well look most of the time it's from a range or of a night time and through a scope so you don't really appreciate sometimes we never we don't even see what we've done but you just see people go down so you know you've got them or you might get information or you've seen them you know you've hit that person but when you do it close and personal I've been in situations where I've had to fight using a weapon like a modern day club trying to trying to to to get somebody not kill him to to try and stop him and he had a weapon and I had weapons but I was doing everything within my power to take the person and I as I said so to me I can remember just seeing the person seeing the life go out of him when I when I actually did actually shoot him and kill him but I watched the life just go out of him and then as I heard the last gargle and I've been grappling with him touching him and fighting him but then the smell that always gets me because it was a smell of blood and carbine because you fired your weapon so the smell of blood carbine and sweat and and just watching that happen the only thing i didn't do is bite him you know so that was four of the senses and that is you can't get any close personal than that um but he deserved it and there's nothing else i could do but sometimes you know you want to it's not like how people think a lot of times we want to take people we need to try and capture people even though some of these scumbags deserve to just be killed you you want to get them so that we can get information out of them and and plus we go by a code you know we still we still work by the geneva convention even though these are fucking terrible people sometimes uh you've got to try and take them alive if possible see the fighting side of things the combat these get taught that self-defense in the ACS as well?

1:33:07Or does that come naturally with being put in these danger zones? You do do self-defense, but you don't do loads of it. You aren't all ninjas or anything. But believe you me, you've got to have that in you. And it's controlled aggression. People say, oh, you're such a nice guy. I'm like, yeah, because I am. I'm not a madman. But you've got to be able to spin on a sixpence. And when it comes down to it, you've got to be able to do that. You've got to be able to take a live... But it's only when there's nothing else that's been necessary. And yeah, I'm not a violent person at all. But if you know if you're in a fight, then you're gonna have to be in a fight.

1:33:42I don't care how big the person is, you'll do everything, you bite, scratch, try and get his eyes out. Cause you will, cause you go back to that native mode. Of the, it's violence and let's face it, it's an extreme violent world. And sometimes you've got to be able to spin on it, but it's all controlled aggression, you know? Does the killing become easier?

1:34:06it's not it's not easy you don't think about you're doing the right job as i said i've never i take my hat off i'm happy that i've killed people or certain people because they're terrorists they're evil as i said anybody who i've killed has either been an enemy combatant or a terrorist or walking them all you know or insurgent these are total scumbags and the only people i really feel sorry for was the enemy uh combatants they have fellow guy people in uniform a lot of them didn't really want to be there because the conscripts but the end of the day they try and fucking kill you they're shooting at you as well so there's a mad world it's a mad world but you don't go it's not because you want to do it as i said if you want to kill people you'd be locked up in a in a psychiatric ward wouldn't you it's just that that was your job and people you've got to are people who are willing to step up and do that for safeguard the country you know how many missions obviously you can't touch on everything but how many missions do you get sent out for you get on the monthly or is it yearly it's not you take i can't talk too much about it but you take over certain roles you know you go you might be on the counter-terrorist team you might be on the same role you might be on a training role uh and then it depends you might be out go out to a certain country where these these problems and then it depends what what happens and what the missions are but i can't really i can't talk about what the missions are because i know i'd get myself fucking locked up where's the most dangerous place you've been i'd say in in in baghdad when it just fell when it when it was chaos you know we were there we were out in the desert before and then just as bad and then we was in baghdad when it was just it was bonkers it was just chaos it was just really you know so you've gone from being in rural areas fighting out in the desert then suddenly you're in urban areas i mean it was just craziness that was important but lots of areas in bosnia there's lots of places and some places i can't tell you about where you've you've you've seen really bad atrocities and there's a lot going on there's more going on what people think what's the worst thing you've seen?

1:36:24Up close and personal. Anytime, anything. It repeats itself in your mind. I don't know what is the worst thing. I've seen carnage when bombs have gone off, but I've also seen what's happened when people have been killed and then left and buried in unmarked graves and we found unmarked graves and stuff like that. Busting them get dug up. But when kids are involved as well, when you've seen kiddies, getting you know remains of of their children and stuff like that because as I say some evil people they don't give a fuck you know women children they'll just they just won't they won't they won't do the worst atrocities what just won't what will make people sick you know they just go see being so fit and healthy because you must have been what under 10 % body fat your photos you're ripped is that a hindrance as well because you've got so much energy and you need to burn that by being so athletic sometimes when you've just got so much energy like you just you don't know what to do can it be a bad thing as well when you're training so hard and come so fat yeah people get this wrong opinion if you see a lot of the SES guys you think fuck me they ain't in the SES because they aren't all mega fit or ripped or anything but they can all fucking do that job they won't stop they'll carry on all that equipment but to me I just enjoy fitness but don't get me wrong I enjoy I need to drink as well.

1:37:54I admit it. I like having a good drink. I like the fitness. But if, for instance, if I had a drink the night before, I will still make sure I'm out and going for a tab, going for a run. I can't just lie on this sofa and just feel sorry for myself. It doesn't matter how bad I feel. I will go out and push myself and go for an hard run. And you'd be surprised after about 30 minutes, you're back with the world. You've got that fresh air in you and you push yourself. you know you might be sick along the way but you push yourself and really and to me i have to i have to release energy every most days you know you've got to get that uh i guess that's where your hard ones come from you've got to get that hard on it's it's them endorphins you've got you've got to get out there and do stuff and you've got to do stuff because it's hard otherwise everybody do it don't think i'm not doing that because it's hard you want to take the odd the difficult job, the difficult task or push yourself and just say, get, I say, I get my mind right tomorrow.

1:38:56This is what I'm going to do. I make sure I'm up and doing it no matter what. And I don't care how bad the weather is. I just go out and do it. You know? And it's just making sure you keep, you just keep up that fitness. Now I was mega fit when I was in the, in the SES. A lot of people here, but sometimes I used to just go a bit beyond, you know what I mean? and not just me, a few of us, even though we were stuck in the jungle, we'd make a pull-up bar and do pull-ups and still carry on training even though we were completely knackered. You just let everything out, you know? And I just enjoyed that life.

1:39:29It was fantastic. Yeah, because I've seen old photos of you when you were training and had the pull-up bar and stuff and you were just completely going for it still and like you says, it's when you're still tired and still pushing the boundaries and still trying to burn off energy. Yeah, yeah, just like... And this is like, you're stuck in a jungle and you're starting to get run down. There's nothing in you. I mean, every time you have a shit, you have to have a look at it. And it's not nice when you look at your shit and you see all these little worms, all these little tiny tapeworms in there, these little white things like maggots sticking out your poo.

1:40:01And you think, they were inside my body, you know, because everybody gets worms or most people do. From what? It's just from living out there, from getting bitten or whatever bears yourself inside you. It's just the environment. you know you can't wash your hands every single time you when you it's you're living in stink and grime and that and you know you could eat something or whatever but you will get whims but i actually got a tracking whim so once you once you come out they just give you one big tablet or a couple of big tablets and that kills all the whims inside you the normal whims but there was something called the tracking room i never heard of it this worm a tracking whim that's what they called it and uh it was like weeks later i kept on having an itch scratching my thigh and I thought what's this and then I noticed like there was just a line going along and it seems to be inside the skin getting further and further and further this bag I've still got a mark there like a red line and I went to the doctors on the and he goes oh you've got a tracking worm so basically there's something there what's been tunneling along the body but just on near the skin and he just put a he got some really cold the nudge out spray you know what it what athletes have for injuries when they put cold spray and it just froze the to death and it died there but i've still got the scar there because you're in there a rainforest tropical medicine they're still finding an awful lot about it now you know they've got little beasts what's get inside you for instance i remember going on a squadron exercise and about a third of the squadron was actually taken off where they all got got leishmanisus what's the jungle it's where something buries a salve in you and basically they all come out and weeks later they come out in these massive boils and it's got me and what they have to do then is go into sort of a tropical medicine hospital there's not many of them in the uk and they get the bodies flushed out right for about two weeks like it's like they're on drips getting a complete cleanup and they come out of there and they're all just like ghosts you know and then they build back up but yeah because we was in one part in the jungle and it was a really dirty jungle these guys a third of them got leishmaniasis they got cured from it but i do know people who long term years later have come down with some really serious diseases and stuff's gone on with the body and it's being brought down to when he was on a jungle trip from something what's happened in the jungle and years later it's caught up with him.

1:42:31It's just bonkers. There's tropical medicine and that, you know. I've seen one of your documentaries. You had a picture of everyone you'd served with and you were just pointing out basically everyone dead, suicide, suicide, suicide, dead, suicide. Yeah. How hard is that seeing fellow brothers who went through the toughest process ever to then come back and just go on to be here? That was horrible because it was only, I was looking at a platoon. This was in the staff. And then I was looking where I was sitting because we won the champion platoon and I was a platoon sergeant. They've got me young lieutenant and they give you a big trophy, you know, and you forget this champion platoon.

1:43:08You have to do all the fitness. Your platoon's got to be fit and then you've got the best shots and all this sort of stuff. But I was looking at this old photograph and then I noticed that people around me, I'm like, he's dead now. You know, you remember names. I thought he's dead. He's suicide. He's suicide. And I thought to myself, well, if that's my platoon in the normal army, and that's basically the same in other platoons and other regiments, you mirror that going through the military, how many people are committing suicide? How many people that have lost it and are homeless and so on? It's scary, isn't it?

1:43:49So I did think, wow, here by the grace of God, go on. Because a lot of men who I speak to who were the ex-military, the majority of them have tried to take their own life. Yeah, I know a lot of them have. And I'll tell you now, I've been through a time, and this was when I was in the military, when I put a pistol to myself and I felt like I'd do myself in. And that was because I was going through a really bad emotional problem. I'll take it like this. I told you when I first done the military, I was 16 years old and my dad gave me a few quid. rolled on 16 years later I've gone through a bitter divorce I was doing the better I was on top of my game in the SAS and then through a bitter divorce and everything else I found myself back in the barracks but this time 50 grand in debt not being able to see my kid and everything and you're like God almighty what's happened to my life and that's when you can see how easy it can be I'm like for fuck's sake yeah fucking women brother like this and then through it myself and the people who probably watched my podcast from like 2022 till now, like you'll see the change, the putting on a bit of weight, the kind of losing yourself because of I'm going through family courts and criminal courts and I think, man, I don't fucking deserve this, but you've got to stay strong and it just shows you this is the toughest of the toughest.

1:45:08Yeah. What a woman can do. Oh, yeah. You know, like it's not all men are saints, but not all women are fucking angels either. I'll tell you what, James, as I said, I remember back in the barracks and we was on the counter-terrorist team at the time and your mates are just taking out getting your piss and that's all they want to do and i'm like i've got no money i'm 50 grand in debt i can't see my balls doing it in the bottle and i just said right fuck it i'm stuck in these barracks but while i've got as a gym and it's just train before work train after work when i'm getting bit wrapped off i train again i stop the booze and i just like train train and it's amazing a few years you know you go through difficult times but i'm not i think it's the same grit what my dad taught me and getting in the ss that i thought right no i'm not gonna let anybody beat me and i just carried on and on and on and before you know it yeah things will turn out for you it's hard work but you know i've got good postings and i got a good job i got out got a good job even though i was looking after the press it was still dangerous as fuck and as with over ss guys but the money was good and i did that for four years then I ended up doing bits and bobs but then I went working for the UAE special forces instructing them and that was really good money so I had 14 years of living out there and that you know life turns out alright so yeah What was it like coming to the end of the SS?

1:46:30Was that your own decision or was that medical? No I could have stayed on for longer I did my full time What was your full time in the SS? Have you got to stay for how long? Say if you do your 22 years but then you can stay on for longer and longer you know there's all different jobs they want you stay on longer because you've got all that experience yeah and uh but to me i always remember james when i was first joined i'm like that's a young sas guy he just won't get on missions and they'll do all the rest of it i remember seeing some really old guys i'm like the berries are all tatty they've got holes in them the stable bouts which we have blue bouts have gone really light brew because blue because they're that old and like who are these who are these granddads because oh that's like uh al detachments like people who are just staying on uh doing the training side they won't go on operations and fight again but they're there because they've got the experience and you can stay there i think till you're 65 but i remember thinking oh i thought no there's no way i'll do that you know once i'm getting too old like that i'll leave it granddad i'm out because that's the way i thought it's good all the people my mates my mates do it especially if they live in everything because it's you know they're keeping in there keeping their hand in and everything they're not going to go fighting but they've still got that train rule they've still got that experience uh but to me i thought nah get out just leaving you so i did i did a couple more years extra and i say i was a start major and he said right i thought to myself right do i carry on now and be one of these old guys or i had the chance to get out and make some money and so i thought right now i'll get out and i said to my wife just pretend i'm still in the SES where I was away nine, ten months a year and his dangerous job and then coming back.

1:48:13I said, I'm still going to be on a dangerous job. I still have to be away nine, ten months a year. However, there's time to be making some money out of it. So that's what we did. And bless him, my wife, she had to just stay at home with, that's when I had my first, my baby, I mean, my wife and I work now, we've been together, what, was it 25 years, something like that. Like, you know, when I've got a 20-year-old, she's 19, 20, let's get this right. They can edit an April so you don't fuck it up. And she's on a third-year university, going to be a doctor, medical, fucking hell. In the Downs house, there's never, ever been a doctor.

1:48:52There's never been an author. So let alone, and my son's a chef and that. So I'm like, wow. But she had to bring two little kids up on her own. and there's me in a very dangerous knowing that i could be gone at any time but we just got a massive mortgage as well you know 300 grand mortgage back then and like shit we've got to pay this off so we've got to you know keep on raking the money and money and just trying because obviously my job as a father is to look after my family and wanting the best for them so yeah did some really dangerous jobs once i left the military so you're going to just go straight back into the close protection street.

1:49:33Was that the plan? It wasn't. But then when my mate was on doing it, I thought, yeah, he got me on the job. It was a good money. So we went there. And then, you know, that was the really dangerous type of hostile environment looking after the press. That was really dangerous. But I'd done lots of different things where they're not dangerous as well. As I said, I trained the UAE Special Forces for 14 years. So that was good. So you're training these young guys. you've got the best weapons there so it was an enjoyable job and i was living in dubai it's great i was having the best of both lives and and since then i've i've been looking after press again but this time taking them in when there was disasters have gone on you know earthquakes and stuff like that and also uh i've been over ukraine just delivering aid and stuff like that but i'm keeping out of them dangerous areas now i've got no intention doing that but I also looked after Beyonce as well.

1:50:29So I've done all the iris, not iris, celeb stuff as well. But I'll tell you the truth, it's boring. I wouldn't like that. You're just a well-paid bad carrier, you know. No, I don't need to do any of that. Now I'm just doing a lot of chats. People want me to go around and giving talks. So I've been giving talks just on being resilient and basically just going through my life and what it means and just chatting away. and it's it's started off mainly just veterans and then the fan i've helped a lot of veterans and military units have asked me to go around but a lot of corporates and i've been and football teams and stuff like that i've asked me to do chats and then they all get something out of it i'm thinking wow to me that was the most you've got to do go outside your comfort zone and to me public speaking in front of people that's completely not me it's outside my comfort zone believe you me but you could have filled me no it is you know i always remember going back on selection i had these two officers i'm on the bunk i didn't know anyone i'm on the bottom bunk and somebody's on the top bunk and it was two officers and i'm listening to these officers one of them come across like hello rupert where are you from and what university did you go rupert oh yeah remember charles and james i'm like and they're coming out big words i'm like what the fuck were they talking about you know and then also i remember then looking around at people and they all seem bigger than me and as if they need to come through a door sideways so i thought to myself one i'm not going to be intelligent enough intelligent enough to pass the sss course but also i'll go and look at these men mountains fucking specimens of men like you know i thought fucking hell he could carry a an house on his back and walk all day you know i'm not going to be fit enough so i thought i thought to myself i'm not going to be fit enough i'm not going to be intelligent enough what am i doing here and that was like on the on the first day of this election but then i thought no fuck it nobody i'm going to do it i'm going to you know it's all in the mind i says right no i'm going to beat these big bastards i'm going to beat this these intelligent gits and at the end of it there's only a handful of others left and i've done it so yeah what what makes a good soldier what makes a good soldier three things shoot move and communicate easy simple and it doesn't matter what you are shoot when i just say shoot i don't just mean you should be able to shoot to the target i mean know the weapon system know what weapons and systems to use whether that's anti-tank weapons rifles or grenade you know know how to use it know what weapons are coming back at you know the different sounds of what being what you're up against what fire's coming back at you and so on so that's all in the shoot the move is be fit enough but not only be fit enough be able to move tactically on the battlefield at the nighttime and so on navigation so that's a shoot that's a move and the communication is you've got to be able to communicate with people whether it's by radio whether by hand signals whether it's by flares and and communications so shoot move communicate and you can put that in jobs any job so for instance if you're a carpenter the shoot is using your tools you've got to be use them tools to do that job and that's like the soldier's got to use the tools to shoot the move is he's got to get from one project to the other so he's got to know okay i've been given this bespoke area where i've got to build a uh a wardrobe right he's got to get his measurements he's got to know how to do that and the communications he's got to communicate with his client same as if he was a chef you've got the shooters you've got to be able to know how to the ingredients so now to use all the your knives and chop things up and everything the movement is you've got to be able get the starter then the main main course and these is already you know where it's made to be and the communication you've got to communicate with front desk front of your house desk and you can put that in any sort of situation but yeah to be a good soldier shoot move communicate what was your weapon of choice they had many different weapons depending what the job you're doing oh so you just definitely was definitely different weapons yeah because if you were doing something like close quarter battle if you were on the counter-terrorist team and you're training on planes trains underground in buildings you want a nine millimeter round or a low velocity round so when you shoot somebody say on a plane you shoot a terrorist you want just to be able to shoot that terrorist you don't want an high velocity round where if you shoot that terrorist then it'll carry on going and go through them and go through another dozen innocent people.

1:54:59So it depends what sort of situation you're going in. If you're going on a normal job, you usually have an high velocity rifle so you can shoot from far away from a distance because obviously distance is on, you want the distance on your side ideally. And yeah, there's all different weapons and depends what you're doing. Do you miss that? do miss no i don't people can't believe you don't miss it no because i beat that cock i enjoyed it don't get me wrong would i do it again in an heartbeat if i could start my life again would i recommend it to anybody yeah and that doesn't just mean whatever it is you want to aim for get doing the best of that job if you were football you every kid who starts football they want to be in the premiership team they want to be in the stoke city squad don't they they want to you should aim to be the best of the best so to me if you're in the military you want to go for the best of the best or whatever it is don't just sit on your laurels and that's the pursuit of excellence so whatever you want to do in life don't just get to there you want to get up as far as you can or keep on trying it's better to try and fail and fail to try so let's yeah so i don't miss it i've really enjoyed it and i would do it again in an heartbeat and uh yeah and to me one of the best parts of it is you you're looking after your country we've got a great country i I know we had a little whinge about it at the beginning, but we should celebrate our country, our culture, and being part of Great Britain.

1:56:28We're the best, by far. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Do you, when you look back on it all, would you change anything? Do you have any regrets? It's not, would it change anything? No, no. I would change, the only things I would change is, in the SES, your customs were deaf quite a lot. I remember not being there that long, and then I found myself on a coughing party. So I'm carrying a coughing. I didn't know the guy, but he was on the selection before me. He was a different group than me. It was just that I got there. The salt major goes, oh, you must be good at drill downs. You did not long come from the normal army.

1:57:07You can go on the coughing party. So I'm bearing this coughing. I mean, I'm part of this coughing party, but then I seem to be most years, if you can get back to the funeral, you get back to the funeral or you see this happen and you're just looking at the families. Them guys are doing the job what they love. But it's still, it's mainly looking at the families. And what I do regret though, this is where I'm going back on the story is, as soon as somebody dies in the regiment, what we do we have an auction for all this kit so a pair of boots we'll sell them and everybody puts massive bids and you know i mean not because you need some boots but just that every everything goes towards the family and all the money we raise because all the lads have chipped in will go towards the family and uh but just sort of get rid of his stuff and and and sell it you know not his personal stuff obviously that'll go back to his family but his army uniforms etc and the very first thing you do is go through the computer make sure the fucking aren't having any affairs or anything like that i think it's fucking for real isn't it all letters anyway but we do that so you get used to doing that so i when my dad died my brother just couldn't handle it in he's a few years older than me he's just like really really upsetting me only he only lives up the road from where my mom and dad were anyway me i've died to bits but i thought right i had a week off and I just had to get down bam, bam, bam, bang right, this is what we do now I've said, mom all my dad's kit now we'll just put you up in the shed you had his watch always on there because no, we just sort of sanitize in the area and it was only years later that mom goes to me that was the evil thing what you did you know this was about 14 years later and she goes you just got rid of all your dad's stuff as if you don't think about him and just like move on and I remember thinking fucking hell that is terrible isn't it but that's sort of what the regiment drummed in me right this has happened the guy's done something he's dead now sell his kit or whatever move on you know i mean crap carry on life and i was trying to put this attitude to me my mom for my dad and i thought how evil was that not evil i was stupid and looking back on it why would i not want to keep his watch there or anything where you should have his watch on the table there's a reminder for my mom isn't it so yeah That's like having no, I've got loads of empathy.

1:59:37That's just programming conditioning for the way how yous are taught how to deal with things. So you've not gave it a second thought. You're just thinking it's the best because you don't want to dwell on it if you're in the military. Because there's no point because it's not going to make a good soldier. It's just going to hold you back. So it's kind of, that's happened. Let's flip the chapter and move on. So you've just probably thought you were doing the right thing. Not realizing it's a grieving process for everybody's different in how they grieve. And I do realize that, James. but if only regrets I could have is I wish I could have not done it that way and also I wish I spent more time with my dad you know because I get some leaves leave as a privilege you don't ever get any time off in the SES and I like yeah I see my mom and dad but then it's like seeing mates and going on the piss and that and my dad always just wanted to drink with us all the time and I think to myself I wish I spent more time with him you know I love it he's a great bloke Do you ever question your service when you're in, when you start looking at what they've done to Iraq and there was no weapons of mass destruction?

2:00:40Does that play in your mind when you see, because Britain and America have done a lot of damage. We can't hide away from the damage that's been done and the politicians and the greed, because what is big business? But when I interviewed Peter, he says, listen, I'm there to do a mission. I'm there, I don't question it. I'm just there to do a job and I do it to my best ability. But everybody who I interview is different kind of answers. do you have a question that when you think but what am i doing 100 now and that's because we were led to believe we were told this as well we weren't you know weapons of mass destruction and all the rest of it and so you put your life on the line and people you know people who died and all the rest of it uh however i also then saw what we did as a civilian side like when i was looking after the press because I spent four or just over four years with CBS News living in an hotel.

2:01:33And a lot of the people who worked with us were Iraqis and was one of the guys was a Mig, Mig, the fighter pilot for Saddam Hussein, but he couldn't get a job. And a lot of them were lawyers or everything. They've lost their jobs. So they were working for the press as fixers, going out, finding information and bringing news to news stories and so on, because he could speak great English as well as you know Arabic and then I was living with these people all the time say nine ten months a year and you get to know them and know their families and at the first they they said wow it was great you know we wanted Saddam go it's great now but then at the end of it is like god almighty we wish we had Saddam back because it's just all the because at least then their kids could go to school they give us food and the markets were falling everything but then it started all this sectarianism because within when saddam the same was there yeah he was an evil guy and his regime might have been evil but as long as you had the picture of saddam open on the on the wall and you just did by what that dictator said they knew life you can just you can carry it was one too bad that's what they were saying even though some of my family killed by him or his regime uh there was no sunny no sin sunny sheer christians all got to work together got on together because they had to because saddam was in charge uh but then once he once he got rid of them they the americans they had no sort of end game and then it just went to sectarianism and it just it's just like getting a a wasp nest a bees nest punching it open watching what's gone on and i'm fucking off and leaving it and i saw the aftermath when i was there as i say with the with the news and you see what it's done to people's lives and and then who generally you know nice people and unfortunately a lot i knew a lot of them and they got killed because when i at least when i had my leave i'd go back to my wife back to uk they would be in the hotel all the time doing jobs but then the odd time they did go home they're going back in baghdad somewhere seen their families and you know they got found out working for the American press that was it there's a good friend of mine who got friends with I knew him for a few years he had a kid the same time as Ryder kid an Iraqi guy he when he went home they caught him given him you know tortured him to death and killed him and he's just trying to earn some money looking after looking after us so you saw the the bad side of it uh yeah and look it's just in it because we get into some of these wars and people you think you're doing the right thing the people on the ground you don't question it because you're just doing your job you think you're doing the right thing and then afterwards when you look back on places like you know iraq and afghanistan and there's other areas where we've been as well uh there's never been an endgame sort of thing yeah Yeah, and the media does worry me because they do portray a narrative that they want to divide, but if you look at what's happened in Nigeria with nearly 100 ,000 people killed and 19 ,000 churches being burnt down because of someone's faith, you know, and we don't hear about that in the media.

2:04:40You know, the media do portray a massive narrative because they want people to buy into. Same as soldiers. There's a lot of kids from vulnerable backgrounds. Could they be more easily to manipulate as well to follow these? We're doing it for our country because I interviewed J.T. Taylor, I think his name was he was a sniper for the Navy and the Twin Towers 9-11 yeah that's their biggest sign ups were for well protect their country and it's the best thing ever be patriotic and fight and die for your country but he himself never questioned at that time he says I'm dying for my country because of what's happened in my country yeah I can understand that but then he started questioning it started thinking what the fuck was I there for because then a lot of rumours came out conspiracies and you start then questioning it and it must be difficult to be a great soldier to be the best of the best because you will see a lot of missions that you can't talk about knowing the damage that can be done in other countries where you're helping resolve, you're helping put blockers on that before anyone ever hears of it and there's a majority of things that go on that we'll never hear of but it must be difficult for people who've gave everything their whole life to be the best soldier to then question things 20 years later like it comes out with no weapons of mass destruction and the corruption and the governments and the all the the old gold and oil and poppy fields and everything that comes with it you start questioning are we just being used yes for people's for gain you know it must be difficult for people who do live that life and have done anything for their country but to then start questioning things because it must be more difficult especially if the shit soldiers have to deal with on a daily yeah no i fully understand and and there's areas of the world like what's going on now they're smaller obviously not as big of the of the uh not per capita as big but it's still going on genocide's going on in different areas smaller areas i remember going over to sedan uh one time when it was it was when it was with the news in in baghdad still but they also had a quick job over in sedan when i was on leave and i went okay i'll go over to there it was the Janjaweed and the atrocities there, these camps with like 20 ,000 refugees had to move because they were scared of getting killed by the Janjaweed.

2:06:58And this is a sudden news. It was like, you've got like the black African and then you've got like the black Arab side African and it was like, God, it's craziness what's going on? And they were slaughtering lots and lots of people. And yet in the UK, these are going from the back at the time, who's arguing information going on. And I'm like, wow, I'm only learning this because I was with the news doing a bit of extra work of reporting it. And you're like, well, I hardly knew anything about this. I've heard just a tiny bit about it, but it's genocide. You know, it was a massive genocide, what's going on.

2:07:32And yeah, it's going on all around the world. Do you ever have nightmares? Yeah, of Stowe. Yeah, yeah. It's not me that's off. It's my wife, because I'm always booting there and kicking there in my sleep. but I have a lot of bad dreams and a lot of times I don't even remember them. It's just that my wife goes, you're kicking everything. You know, you start off having shakes and everything. She says, I can tell when you're going and then you just start kicking off. And other times I wake up knackered and the odd time I have, I can remember nightmares, but most nights I think I've slept normal. No, you didn't.

2:08:11You're just all over the place. so yeah did you get help for it when you eventually quit nah tablets or anything nah fair play somebody once I had some one time but no yeah I would say somebody pinched like the other week somebody pinched my antidepressants I hope they're happy now no yeah I've had like I went for a bit of counselling and a bit of stuff like but it's i don't know it's something to me i've got it's now and i'm dealing with it a lot of it's in the you know in my sleep and but also i just like to i think what else is just getting out there and do some training you know me do something surround yourself with positive people keep that positive mindset train keep training keep yourself fit and yeah just push on for life the best that I've got my dog now, Reggie, and I just love him.

2:09:15I've never been able to have, I know we're going off the subject, I've never had a dog before because my parents would never let me have one. Then in the military, I was always moving around. And then when I worked in Dubai for 14 years, I could have had one then, but I thought it was cruel because nine, 10 months a year, the dogs are stuck inside. Yeah, the heat. Yeah, the heat. It's too hot for them. So my wife said, right, when you come back to UK, after a couple of years, you can have a dog. So I've got this dog i'm the vimer or the reggie god i love him to bits but you know i just wake up in the morning and i'm like wow i can't wait to go on but i don't know can you see that look at me yeah see what i'm not scotting yeah it's his mouth he keeps on he's just like god so you've got your dog now yeah you've come through all the war zones you've survived sas training you've been in the military for over 20 years and you've got more scars on your arm through a dog for me everybody knows my love for dogs they're so important for a man i think it it keeps you sane kind of in a sane world you know like i think like i love my kids i love my family but i miss my dogs the most when i'm away that's where my wife goes she goes she says now you're going dog you come in and he comes straight up to you and you where's reggie where's the dog and you just want the dog why aren't you like that with us i'm like well when i come through the door you don't lick my face for 10 minutes do you you know what i mean but no i can understand And for your mental health Everything isn't it Because you're going to be Having a bad day And you look at your dog Dude that's true love Isn't it Before you're out here Waiting for you And yeah It's just a loyalty It is They don't really want much from you And whether you're homeless Or sitting in a mansion They'll sit right by your side Yeah And I think That shows what Loyalty does And I think People can feel loyalty You feel your dog's loyalty Your friends Come and go And you think Nah he's not loyal Because you know The way our dogs act The way our true friends Should act Like the loyalty and the trust where you've got each other's back and you'll do anything for each other.

2:11:07I think that's what's important in life and I think we forget that sometimes. Your book, brother, Unbreakable. How hard was it to get out? Was it a struggle? Was it a lot of red tape? One and a half years. Yeah, there was the red tape, but not so much that. The stories as well. I'm so glad they did it because I used to come back from there and sometimes you go, you passed, you just hide any bad things in the back of your memory don't you you just don't want to talk about it but the ghost ride sort of brought out all stuff what i've never thought about what i don't want to talk about and then suddenly coming back up on the train i found myself nearly in tears thinking wow i've brought back so many memories bad and good and stuff but yeah it was just like it was like a counseling session as well in a way it was so therapeutic afterwards i'm like wow that's a weight off my shoulders so i enjoyed it and going back on the dog and the mates i always say you've got a lot of mates you've got a lot of associates but really if you've got your friends and i mean a true friend you can just phone anytime you might not have seen them for years they'll be there for you you shouldn't have more than that you should count them on one hand serious and i think who are my true friends and most of them are the excess yes guys who i know are my true friends i won't say the names now but and they know i'm one of theirs you know i mean no matter what I'll be there for them to drop everything and there's very very few isn't there in life you've got more than a if you can count more than a one or two yeah yeah if you've got more than two you're doing well but either that or you're a fucking bad judgement of character yeah yeah or you're a rich twat and you've got loads of people around you they aren't friends they're just acquaintances I think as you get older you don't really need that many people anymore like my life was so quiet now and I enjoy it obviously you get your cars you're dealt with you need to deal with but just peace man just a bit of peace you know because when I'm down here and I'm working it's chaos as well but I love the chaos I was raised in chaos I thrive that's where you'll thrive that's where majority of men thrive is when a life is full of chaos but how are you feeling today?

2:13:12Yeah I'm feeling good mate I'm good You should be proud and like I say thank you for your service for anybody that's watching brother that's maybe in a life or struggle right now what advice would you have for them? I'm just saying get outside your comfort zone and do something get some fresh air try get some exercise and really try get some exercise and get you know try surround yourself with positive people and speak to people if you if you are having problems and what advice is it will get better in time this is just we're just going for this is just what i've even just said now a minute ago it's past you know the future is every day is going to be it can be a struggle It will get better You know It will Because I've been there As I said A lot of us have had really bad times And the time will get you through it What would you say to the people Because you're very patriotic You love your colours You love your flag You know You raise your flag You're proud of it You were willing to die for it You killed for it What do you say to the people Who raise their flags And people are calling them racist I can't behave Don't be so stupid You know what I mean Yeah you might get the odd person there or the very you know you get a few races but there's few races everywhere and everything so that's your flag that's our flag if you as i keep on saying if you're in this country we should all love that's the number one flag is the union flag then you've got your scottish flags you've got your other flags but everybody should have one they should be flying from every school as well you know i mean this is our country love it look at america and other countries they love the flag why why are we seem to be embarrassed about a flag or because it's been to have been over that subject no just fuck that off it's our flag love your flag fuck the bad people that's the far left and the far right it's our fight get behind it this is our country to a great country okay and you pay everybody who is in this country should be willing to die for it and i love it to this and i do it again fair play what about the state of the uk how do you feel it is at the moment do you feel a lot on rest or do you think the media can portray that i think the me they can portray that but when you've seen some of the countries and places i've seen and people are moaning we've got fuck all moan about serious if you can wake up in the morning you're you're right i swear we people just moan for the sake of it so long as you've got you've got a life and you you've got if you've got a better shelter you know i don't mean the people who just living on the streets but some of the dog shit places i've seen and and they just get on with it they're getting on with life and they're living in pure poverty so people don't realize how lucky they are to live in a great country my brother would you like to finish up on anything else no if you want followers what's all your social media yeah it's mainly on instagram that's malvin downes m-e-l-v-y-n-d-o-w-n-e-s and your book again where can people buy it they can buy it it can be on um all the main platforms but amazon is the best way i'd say you can just order it off amazon and yeah i appreciate it listen thanks for coming on today again thank you for your service i wish you nothing but the best for the future brother keep up the great work and god thanks for having me mate god bless brother thank you