Undercover Cop Working Inside Satanic Cults - Agent Scott Payne Tells All

29:30I wouldn't do it, I couldn't do it because of being a father and I did question him why would you do it and he says look James I'm a dad he says I didn't want to do it but after I'd done my first job and saved that 11 year old boy how could I walk away because he knew it was happening every day he says I couldn't walk away the feeling of trying to help people and save people at that young age no matter who it was or how dark it was someone had to do it And I respected him after that Because you'll get a lot of dark people who want to work those It's a free pass to see the Grade A, Grade B, Grade C kind of photos And videos But I've just interviewed enough people now And I know how dark the world is And I question everybody Who works with kids or works with anywhere Because it's such a dark, dark world at the moment And yeah, I respected his answer And I respected him for such a tough job Yes, he really battles with it now You would be um most people would be completely shocked and destroyed to find out how much is out there on these peer-to-peer networks as far as pedophilia child porn stuff like that i can do i could do the undercovers where i was the guy picking you up i could show you the book and go hey do you want depending on how sophisticated it was but they've been cases where it was so sophisticated You like pick them up and you go, hey, all right.

30:54Do you want a boy or girl? OK, what age group, what ethnicity? And you can break it down. I could do that. And I've helped people set up reverse things where we had what looked like an underage girl in the room. And the guy shows up and of course he says, oh, no, I'm not here for that. And you open up his suitcase and he's got kids toys and all the trinkets he was supposed to bring for the kid. You know, it's very, very sick. I can't look at the stuff, though. There are those that do, and they work it all the time. Me, personally, before I even had kids, I was training a guy who just got in the FBI.

31:29And he was out of the academy, and I was his training agent. And he was working that stuff. And I said, let's go, man. Let's do it. And I remember just seeing like four photos. It rocked me for two weeks, man. Like my wife would come up to touch me, and I'd be like, mm-mm, mm-mm, mm-mm. And I'm like, I got to get my head, you know. but there wasn't anywhere really for me to go to go turn to and say you know hey this is kind of messing me up kind of thing but it's a dark job of interview a man as well he used to have to grade it like grade the photos and put them in categories like a b and c but he said it just he just became so desensitized sometimes he was just eating his lunch oh yeah grading them and just but is that good no you see what i'm saying i've seen people who say they do great on it doesn't bother them all and i'm like oh no but but in the fbi if you work that and you are exposed to those images and videos we have you mandatory that you have to be psychologically psychologically assessed at least once a year to be fit you should be assessed every day once a year it's just i'd say i'd say at least quarterly four times a year yeah at least you know because it's a that's not humane it's not it's not what humans should be seen you know but somebody's got to do it what's the quickest undercover job you done?

32:45What's the sort of time progress between a fast one and a long one? So the quickest one that I can think of off the top of my head was, I mean, I've done some like cameos where they were quick. And that's literally like going on a movie. Like I'm the guy that opens the door for you, something like that. But as far as me being the primary undercover and it being quick. It was a pedophile. There was a pedophile in jail. Um, he had molested, he was charged with molesting a young boy and he got locked up. He got charged and locked up. And while he was in jail, he knew he wasn't going to do good in jail because he's a pedophile.

33:26And he asked somebody in that jail, Hey, do you think you could find somebody? Do you know anybody who's like a hit man who could kill this kid because in his mind if the kid was dead there's no trial which isn't a bad plan um so of course he asked that person and that when you're in jail everybody's it's a shark they're full of sharks looking for blood in the water they all want to get out they all want to shorten their sentence so as soon as that guy was asked he reached out to his lawyer said hey there's a guy in here and then they came to the fbi and i went up i only talked to him twice um but after meeting me.

34:02I had to go to the jail to meet him. And, uh, I remember the first meet, I was like, I had a picture. We had a picture of the kid. Um, cause it'd been two years. Uh, I got a picture of him, like we made it look like we had snapped a surveillance photo, but the family knew we were working with the family, but we got a picture of him kind of like walking out. And, uh, and I remember telling him that I was an exterminator, you know what I mean? You know, I said, you know what I do? Cause you asked me to come here, right? You know, I, I get rid of stuff. I kill pest for a living and he's like yeah and I said you know is this the pest you won't kill and I showed a picture of that kid and he goes yeah that's him and we got that on the recording so if I'm talking if he says no I thought he was talking about like ants or roaches or something he said that's him when he looked at it and then we talked about money and then he threw me off he said hey I wouldn't mind it if you killed the rest of his family too they're up in like Wisconsin and I'm like so I was like dude I said I'm not a I'm not afraid to travel for work but let's deal with one at a time, you know, let's talk about this money.

35:01And when I went back the second time to meet him, it was kind of just solidify, um, the first meet and get the money. But by that time, uh, the prosecutors had everything they needed. Where did you meet him? At a jail. He was in, he was in jail. He's speaking in prison. He was speaking in prison. How did they get in court? Through the, uh, through the plexiglass. Yeah. How did you, How did you become in contact with him? Well, he has to put my name because he asked that other person in prison. Did he know somebody? And that guy said, yeah. And he gave him my name and he had to put, he had to put my name on his visitors list in order for me to visit him.

35:37So that's what happened. And I went into the jail. I'm in there in the stainless steel, baby mamas are yelling, everybody's screaming and crying and stuff. And I'm trying to get a recording. I'm like, come on, man. Cause that jail didn't record the phone calls, uh, between us two. So I'm like, I got to get some kind of recording device and try to make this thing work. And, uh, yeah, that's how it happened. How did they not record your calls to police? The jails? I don't know why. I mean, if you call from within the jail, I know they recorded those, but I don't know why at that point. Maybe, maybe this is a Texas thing or maybe that's what it was at that time.

36:08But, uh, yeah, he, he, uh, once they approached him and said, Hey, that was an FBI undercover you were talking to. He ended up pleading guilty to, he pled guilty to hire me to kill the kid. And he pled guilty to molesting the kid. And what I didn't know is, I go thoroughly in the book about it. But what I didn't know is that that prosecutor's office in San Antonio, Texas, had tried that guy on like three or four cases prior to that. And they never could get him because they're hard. It's always usually after the fact, well after the fact. it's an adult versus a kid and a lot of times the kids are from broken homes and stuff and it's just they're tough cases to prosecute sometimes how long did he get 30 how old how old was the kid i think if i remember correctly when the molestation was happening he was 11 and he was 13 by the time i i uh i was hired to kill him so he molested an 11 year old and then wanted to kill him to get away with his sentence yeah so he wouldn't go to jail yeah what about the guy who gave passed on your details did he get a lesser sentence i'm sure he got some kind of credit how did that come about so you have informants in the prison as well for stuff like that no what it is i mean you can but what it is is uh he's in jail and like i said you're trying to shorten your sentence so you have your attorney and then if somebody comes to me like say you came to me and you said hey man you know somebody i need this kid killed okay yeah i got you yeah let's talk about it were you willing to pay this that and the other i go right to the phone bank and I'm like, hey, I need to talk to my attorney.

37:43Come down here and meet me. You come in, I go, hey, this dude over here is, because I need some credit. Give me some credit to shorten my sentence. I'll help you get this guy. How much was he paying you? It's not, it's not like the movies. It wasn't like a hundred grand or something. I think it was like 10 grand, something like that. But you just had to give me something. I can't believe there's snitches everywhere as well, but that's something to a snitch, aren't you, to be fair? I don't think that really counts if someone's wanting to kill a kid. Yeah, I'm with you. You know, that's disgusting behavior.

38:11But that's what we do. We're in the people business. I know people get the term, like, you're a snitch. Snitches are snitches and ditches. You know, I'm like, I get it, man. You know, three can keep a secret if two are dead. I know all that stuff. But I'm saying, once it's just me and you sitting in a room and you're not with the gang and you're not with all this stuff, usually, usually they work. The Baker Gang, the Outlaws, that was your longest undercover work. What was the one before that? You've done a year and a half. Oh, man, I've done a bunch of ones that are a year and a half. uh is there any stick i did i did one that was like it was supposed to be just a interstate transportation of stolen goods and then it ended up being a public corruption case um the outlaws was two years i did another public corruption case that was that'd be like dirty cops um i did that one for a year and a half uh there's several that were just a year i mean that's they just ebbs and flows and do you have to go to different states because surely if you're rocking up with a beard one time being a biker and then the next time you're trying to handle stolen goods with no beard like how do you then you're pretty much done so do you go from as soon as you go one state they have to move you to another state no i i still stayed at my home base um like if i'm a case agent let's say i'm a case agent here and when i got here i went undercover here um but once i'm done with that undercover i'm now overt i mean it's now like hey now you know i was the undercover so I'm never going to work undercover in that town again it's like the outlaws after two years with the outlaws traveling all over the United States with them um I could never go undercover in the outlaws again because or or even a biker club that was friends with the outlaws because there's a good chance that I might show up at a meetup or a party or a rally and somebody's gonna be like hey that's that fed he's a fed you know so yeah you gotta you gotta you want just usually it's kind of like a one and done like i'm over if if you're arresting everybody and you're taking everybody down how does it work what's the procedure to go through do you get the targets to do and how do you end up befriending them what's the procedure to then every day at a bar what's the the step by step you go through every case is different and you got to be careful not to give away like tradecraft because there's people still out there doing this job um but every case is different like if you came to me and you said scott i got this case i'd like you to be the undercover, I'll be like, okay, well, what do you got?

40:34Well, if you tell me, hey, this guy, uh, we think he's involved in such and such. We've got predication. We've got the case. Now we want to do an undercover. I'm like, okay, well, what do you know about the guy? You know, well, he's a tattoo artist. Okay, cool. Um, do you know anything else about him? I mean, does he go get coffee every morning at the same place? I don't know. Just, you know, I can go talk to somebody about tattoos and get tattoos you know something like that or uh like in the outlaw case they were like hey there's this one guy and he loves he loves attention he loves to be surrounded by big muscular guys to be like hey look at me i'm the guy and he loves to be the center of attention and i use that to my advantage with that guy because that was right they were right and i just So I was sitting at a bar, I was hanging out at a bar, and then the one time they came in, after I'd been there for a while, they came in.

41:31I'd gone to that bar several times by myself when they weren't there. And then they came in that night, and that was our first time to try what we'd call like a cold bump. In other words, nobody's introducing me. I'm just going to try to bump you myself. And that's what I did. I was at the bar, and I was being loud, and I had people laughing. I was cutting up like I always do. and then sure enough it was eating him up he was looking over there like who is that guy why i've never seen that guy in here before who is that and then finally he yelled at me he's like hey where the f are you from you know and i'm like i made up some joke and we started laughing and and then you know meanwhile he's asking the bartender hey you've seen that guy yeah he comes here he comes here a lot i'd imagine everyone is dangerous when you're going undercover but i'd imagine the mafia and the biker gangs are probably the most ruthless if they found out you were a cop.

42:20It depends. It could be if you're doing international, uh, uh, crime, um, uh, like transnational organized crime, which would be like MS 13, the cartel and the Mexican cartel is pretty ruthless too. I mean, very ruthless torture and all kinds of stuff. I mean, I'll, I'll work down there for six and a half years. And I mean, this episode is brought to you by chat GPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about chat GPT work? It's the new way to use chat GPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give chat GPT work access to your apps and files, and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports.

43:04Get started at chat GPT.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans. We got stories of the leader of the cartel at that time had a line he would feed people to the line um they had a they had a short statured man i don't know if i don't want to say midget because i don't think that's politically correct anymore you know what i mean i don't know but they had they had a uh a small man that they would use to rape people to torture them um one of the last cases i worked there, they had a guy and they caught, he worked with the cartel, but he stole money. And when they found out it was him that stole the money, the last we heard is they had chopped his hands off while he was still alive in a 55 gallon drum of either diesel fuel or acid.

43:55Either you burn them slow with diesel fuel or acid cooks them. And then they call that El Giza, which means soup. You turn them into human soup. So it's pretty ruthless. And by the time I left, they were just chopping heads off the little midget raping people a little fucker ain't he those midgets can't be trusted i'm telling you bro i thought we thought it was like a wildest deal we didn't think it was true and then one night uh there was a there was a guy that stole a car i guess you could say he carjacked it um from a lady at the gas station he drives right across the border to try to get some money so he's in camargo mexico trying to get some money you know and then he didn't look in the back seat there's an infant in the back seat so now the cartel is pissed they're like you're bringing this extra heat why would you steal a car with the baby so they start beating him and threatening to kill him and when we got him cut back to us because the family's calling us and they're like man they're going to kill him they want this much money so now it turns from this investigation into now we're trying to get this kidnapped victim back even though he stole the car um but when he came across the bridge he was crying and he said the midget was in the room and we were all like the midgets real and they were like yeah i'm like were you undercover no i was a case agent there i mean i so like when i was in the outlaws i was a case agent in mccallan texas two jobs yeah so i mean i would go undercover in boston but then i would fly back home and i would type up all my undercover stuff and still be on the phone with people but i'm still a case agent.

45:27I mean, I was a SWAT guy. I ran all the firearms and tactical training for two offices. I was a training agent over at least one or two, uh, new agents. I set the desk for the squad. I'm a workaholic, you know, and I, and I did it to my own demise. Would they not question that if you weren't around all the time? Well, what's my story? Do I have, do I live in Boston or do I have a job that brings me to Boston? do i if i live in boston maybe i got a job that takes me on the road which is very common i mean i didn't realize it till i started flying so much i'm like man there are people that live like a five-hour drive away but they fly into houston every day to work or they fly in for the week and they go home on the weekend i see it through atlanta georgia i see it in houston and i'm like well i'm just going to mimic what they're doing so what was this the start of the Baker gang how did you get into the outlaws what was the whole purpose of that case they the case team had already been building it I don't know if they've been working it for a year and a half or whatever but they had a lot of information um and they had good evidence but they wanted to go deeper and figure out the whole thing so they pitched doing an undercover operation and I went up there and interviewed for it and they picked me and then I started learning about who the targets were and when I say in the United States when I say predicated that means that I'm not just going up and saying, hey, man, can I buy some dope off of you without even, I mean, we've got evidence that you are selling drugs.

46:57I'm not walking in there going, hey, like if I never knew anything about you and I didn't know at all you did drugs and I walk up and go, hey, man, I got 30 grand if you got a kilo. Well, now we're starting to get into some entrapment issues. Are you doing the drugs? Did you bring it up to me? Because that happened. The president of the Taunton chapter of the Outlaws, as soon as he found out I was in the bottom of Texas on the border of Mexico, He's like, where are you from? I said, I'm down in McAllen, Texas. He goes, where? I said, I'm on the border. He said, how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for down there?

47:27Now we're talking dope. Straight away? Yep. That's a bit amateurish, no? Well, maybe he believed me. Maybe he trusted me because I'd already been vetted by other outlaws before I met him. How many people in that chapter? Maybe like 12, anywhere from 12 to 15. Yeah. and so when you started when you're in the bar you're being loud you're being boisterous you how did you end up befriending well it started with his road name was spanky and he called me over and invited me to a bunch of stuff but that night i met a guy named scott um scott town and uh he and i became like best buddies i mean we were if any undercover i've ever done in my entire life that was a real relationship that me and that guy were so close um we had so much in common it was scary like scary like what like we look we could finish each other's sentences we were cut from the same cloth it's just that he was doing criminal stuff and i was an undercover fbi agent but i mean like he would take a bullet for me i'd take one for him i mean he liked to fight and ride and drink and lift and i like to fight ride and drink and lift you know and and uh i spent time at his home with his family you know so see that's a dog move and even though it's our job that sucks because you can tell you're a good guy who probably has feelings as well when you don't even look i've i've got the training i'll put the training on i know um i'm another i'm an undercover agent that's not my friend so so we teach but i'm also human and uh and when we were out there in the thick of it he was closer to me than my cover team if I needed somebody to help me in a fight or whatever he was my lifeline quicker than my cover team would be because they can't get in there fast enough when you say you would take a bullet for him how accurate is that if we were in it I'm just telling you in that in in that environment for those two years yeah if somebody went to hurt him I'd stand up for him for sure our relationship was that close but again I say again as if I've talked to you I'm sorry but But when I'm teaching or when you talk to people about undercover, you ask them, you go, what do you think undercover is?

49:41What do you, I mean, what does undercover mean to you? So I'll ask you, when you think of undercover, what do you think? As per police? Yeah, just me being an undercover. What do you think I'm doing? Being somebody that's just trying to sneak into the group. Yep. You get that? We hear like, oh, you lie. Okay, yeah. Oh, you're acting. Yeah, not really. I stay pretty close to who I am as a real person. but the true definition is, is if you're undercover, you're building relationships that you're going to betray. And if you look at it that way, it does suck because even, even if like I've been undercover for five months or six months with a group and then it's like, they're not doing anything illegal, not federally.

50:22It's not a federal case. So we're like, now, now maybe we're going to talk to them. That's still a betrayal because even though we didn't arrest them they they've been thinking i was scott whoever for six months and now they found out that i'm actually a undercover agent and uh you've got to figure out how you can rationalize what you're doing in your mind so it doesn't have an adverse impact on your psyche psyche was you a biker before that yeah i grew up on motorcycles yeah so see so you can't you don't need to play the part you just be yourself yeah how long does it take to actually be friend someone and what's the procedure to actually get in?

51:01Because do you not have to be a prospect? Oh, so that's a good question. A lot of undercovers, when it comes to biker gangs, what they'll do is they'll hang around and then they'll become a prospect or a probate, whichever one you want to call it. And that is usually, back then, a minimum of six months of probation. And you're getting run through the gamut. It's the whole hazing thing. It's like keeping you up all night. You got to wear the fanny pack with the condoms and the cigarettes and the lighters and the dope and whatever else they may need tampons for the women whatever it may be um and then you're changing all on motorcycles and you're serving everybody and they're screaming at you and stuff and then if you get patched in then your official patch but for our outlaw case uh i came up with a different idea um we said look like they were asking me even the outlaws were like why don't you patch in and i'm like that's great and even the case team at one point was like, why don't you patch in?

51:59And I'm like, no, I said, we're getting everything we need right now because what they believed I was, um, was a high ranking member, if not the leader of an international theft ring. They, it started with them doing insurance jobs. They would report the vehicle stolen, get their insurance money, but sell the vehicle to me at a stolen price. Then it got to where they trusted me. Then they were stealing vehicles and selling them to me. And then they were carjacking people at gunpoint and they were like hey Tex, we gotta get rid of this car. So you start gaining that trust. I want to hire a private investigator.

52:35Some folks say I'm the best. ABC Tuesdays. TV's hottest PI is back. You sure you're ready to take on a serial killer? It's like a dozen more likely explanations other than serial killer. Alright, maybe not a dozen. In Florida, crime has no offseason. I just heard you were shot at today with a rocket launcher. Well missed. RJ Decker, Tuesdays, 10, 9 central on ABC. Next day on Hulu. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT. Hey, it's Bill Simmons from the Bill Simmons podcast. Have you guys heard about ChatGPT work? It's the new way to use ChatGPT for bigger multi-step projects. And when you need more than just answers, give ChatGPT work access to your apps and files and it can create real work documents like spreadsheets, slides, and structured reports.

53:25Get started at chatgpt.com by selecting work mode available on Plus and Pro plans. And we were getting everything we needed, but I explained to them, I go, if I was to patch or just probate or prospect, like you said, and they said, text, grab your shit. We're going to go around the corner. We're going to jack this dude. I can't say no. If I say, no, I'll tell you what you guys go handle that and bring me the vehicle when you're done no i'm a prospect and a probate so a lot of a lot of these one percenter clubs that i say a lot there's not i mean the big four but what i've heard is it used to be one year of hanging around roughly six months of probation roughly then you patch now i'm hearing they're saying hang around for two years probate for a year.

54:14That's three years. And they're doing that to thwart being infiltrated, to thwart law enforcement. Better idea though. It's safer for them. It's much safer for them to make people go a prospect. Because what happens if you do crimes? What happens if you're carjacking? What happens if you're beating people up? How does that affect your undercover work? What's the line? In the United States, I mean, you have attorney general guidelines. You've got all kinds of rules. you can't be involved in an act of violence unless it's self-defense now i have been in fights um but i can articulate what i was doing like you may look at and go oh my gosh man you're picking these people up and you're throwing them and there's these dudes are hitting these dudes it looks like i'm in the fight but i articulate my report i was actually saving those people yeah i made it look like i was fighting but i was picking those dudes up and throwing them so i'd be like hey you know and i'm yelling i'm like back the fuck up you know and they're like yeah but really i'm like hey i'm saving them and then like the dude that's really getting beat i may go over and grab him and be like give me some let me get to that i'll pick him up to stop them from beating him but then i pick him up and i look and he's bleeding everywhere i go he can't even hold his own blood get out of here you know something um but every case is different and everybody's different that's just what i did so when you started befriending scott like how did that relationship was that just straight off the bat because you were so alike uh well it started that first night I bumped him because I believe he was sent in there to check me out because at one point and he was big dude jacked and I'm like I go to the bathroom and and I'm in the bathroom and I'm in I'm the only one in there so you got the urinals and then you got the stalls but like at nightclubs they usually have like some kind of advertisement in front of you with the plexiglass you know this dancer's coming this week whatever come here for car wash day or whatever the hell it is because because it was a strip club was where we were at.

56:10But. I watch and I see this dude walk in and he walks in and I'm looking in the reflection. I'm like, all right, pretty jacked dude. And I'm like, all right, sleeved all the way down the left side. I see three earrings. I see like, it was like a gray shirt with black red, black edging, you know, and then I watch him and I see him kind of looking under the stalls, making sure nobody else is in there. And then he starts walking up right next to me and I'm like, oh man, I'm getting ready to get jumped. I'm getting ready to get jumped. and I was bracing myself and he didn't jump. He just said, so where are you from?

56:44And I said, I'm from the bottom of Texas in McAllen. He goes, oh, see if I'd have been bluffing, he would have called me right there. Cause he was like, oh, I know McAllen. He goes, I've been down to Brownsville, this side and the other. And I go, yeah, I said, I'm originally from South Carolina. He goes, what part? I said, Greenville. He goes, oh man, I've been all through there. Spartanburg, all this stuff. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, anything I mentioned, he'd been there. And I was like, boy, I'm glad I wasn't bluffing. Cause if I would have been, I'd have been done right there. They must have vetted you though.

57:09They must have been, how do you go through the process? What process? Everybody's different. With them, it was more of a face-to-face thing. And then just building trust with me doing jobs with them. Because the insurance thing, I mean, on the scale of crimes that they were committing, that's nothing to them. They were like, oh, this is so small. You know, and then after maybe six of those, they're like, no, we can trust this dude. We're making money. And what do criminals want? Money. and what was the insurance thing for them? I don't know. It depends on the vehicle. I mean, like if you've got a$100 ,000 BMW, I'm sure the insurance is going to be good.

57:46I don't know if you're going to get 100 grand out of it, but you're going to get something. You know, but if you've got a smaller car, but basically I just let them know that, I let them know the truth, that on the border of Mexico, V8 4x4s and Harley-Davidson's got stolen all the time because Mexico loved V8 4x4s and motorcycles. So when I said that to them, that's what they went and got. And who do you check back into? Who do you report back to and how often? Daily. The Boston team, like if I, in the FBI, like we have a cover team. If I'm out, they're out. They might be in a parking lot across the street.

58:26It might be if we're in a rural county here in Tennessee and, you know, everybody would know if the feds were in town, they might have to sit at the county line and just but just listen and and be ready to respond but uh yeah if i'm out they're out are you wearing a wire every day uh not every day um but yeah i mean that's what you got to do you got to get the evidence that's your job was your cover ever blown or nearly blown oh nearly blown several times was that yeah when uh well the outlaws case was probably the biggest one after a year and a half undercover with them doing all those jobs after a year and a half we upped the ante we'd be in the department of justice fbi and u.s attorney's office and dea and we um we were going to do a drug deal and they were going to help protect it but the night before that drug deal happened uh they called me to the clubhouse and I went to the clubhouse and they took me down into a tiny basement and stripped me at gunpoint looking for a wire.

59:32And I was wired. They just missed it. Why after 18 months? I don't know. Because we were getting ready to do a big dope deal. I found this out after the fact. It went all the way to the top, apparently. And the top at that time was Milwaukee Jack was the national president of the outlaws. And the way it was told to me is that Milwaukee Jack called down. and said, what is this you guys are doing kind of thing? And they're like, oh, he's good, man. We've done a bunch of jobs with him, and we're not in bracelets and handcuffs. And basically it was, we don't care. You need to check him. And yeah, a year and a half, all that.

1:00:08And at that point in time, my closest friendship was still Scott Town all the way through. Second closest was Clothesline. Clothesline was the enforcer for that chapter. And then it would have been the president, Joe Dawgs, and on down after that. But I got to the clubhouse that night and my second closest friend, clothesline, said, hey, Tex, you got a minute? And I said, yeah. And as I'm following him, there's one door I've never been in. I've been in that clubhouse probably 20 times. There's one door I've never been in. And he opens that door and it's a tight stairwell down to basically a crawl space.

1:00:41A basement's being very generous, you know. It's just like a little walkway. It's tight. I couldn't even stand up straight. The roof was so low. and uh yeah i get down there and i knew it was bad because as soon as he turns and i turn behind him another outlaw comes in right behind me and i'm like oh shit this isn't good and we went down in the basement and um he told me he said they brandished their weapons to let me know i'm not free to leave and he told me there's a lot of shit going on and it's my job to take care of my brothers he said i need you to write down your full name your address your date of birth your social security number um he goes i got your phone number he said and then i'm gonna need you to take all your clothes off because i'm gonna check you for a wire and i had three devices on me at that time and he they missed him where did you have the devices uh i'll keep that one hidden because that's tradecraft yeah it must one maybe on the deck or something like surely not in the ass because you wouldn't hear like you know it was also around 2007 ish so devices technology is different it's just like your phone it's like a it's like a thumb drive i mean you used to only get like what one one gigabyte on it now you can get like a hundred and something it's just technology changes but yeah i went down there and um i had two recording devices and a transmitter so the transmitter is so the team can hear me um but yeah i uh i was writing down my name and because of the adrenaline dump because of the fear the fight or flight everything slows down everything you hear is like you're underwater it's going whoosh whoosh it's going real slow it might only have been four minutes it felt like it was five hours right so i'm sitting there and he's saying this stuff to me and then you get time dilation with your eyes because of that adrenaline dump and fight or flight everything's in screen grabs it's like click click nothing's moving smoothly everything's slowly you can you can hear your heart beating my hamstrings get real weak um and i because of the stress i forgot my middle name i've been that guy forever i know that alias i made that alias but because of the stress i was going scott calloway scott calloway scott calloway i was going what's my middle name what's my damn middle name and i i didn't even know i did it until i saw it in a video i'm like i didn't i don't i never knew i did it but i do it what's the distraction technique.

1:03:13I'm just buying time. I'm like, what else do you need? He's like, what? I said, my name and what else? So they yell up, Hey, what do you need for that website? So now I'm gathering some intelligence. I'm like, Oh, okay. They're going to, they're going to run me on Google. And back then there was a popular website called who's a rat.com. Um, things like that. And then I remember a middle name. I write it down and then I take all my upper body clothing off. I take my boots off and I drop my underwear and jeans down around my ankles and, uh, they check me. And then I pull my pants back up and then I think I'm done.

1:03:53Cause now I'm coming back up. Right. I was like, Oh my gosh. I'm a, now I'm coming back. Okay. I'm calming down. All right. He's done with that. He's checked me. I'm gonna be okay. And then he grabs a piece of clothing. and in that piece of clothing was a recording device and he starts doing this with his hands he starts going up and down that jacket with his hands needing it and he asked me right when he goes to grab it he says uh hey I'm not gonna find anything in here I don't want to right like some pictures of my old lady and he laughs and I'm and I'm my laugh you gotta understand I don't sound like this on the recording my voice is higher my diction's terrible I'm talking through my nose because I'm panicking.

1:04:33And he says, like, some pictures of my old lady. And he laughs. He goes, ha, ha, ha. My laugh is like, you know. I'm like, ha, ha, ha. And then I'm watching him just go, because, I mean, what am I going to do? Even if I get out, they both got weapons. Even by some grace, I'm able to beat these two guys and get out of that crawl space basement. They just got through having church, which is their mandatory weekly meeting. All the outlaws are there. There's probably like eight or 10 more outlaws upstairs. And I got to get through them to get to a door that's heavily barricaded with a metal bar across it and stuff.

1:05:07So what are you going to do? And while he's needing that piece of clothing, he's doing this. And again, I don't know how I do it, but I've seen the recording so many times and heard it so many times. While he's doing it, I'm leaning up against the wall and I just go.

1:05:24Because I don't know what to do. He looks right at it, misses it. And it hands me my clothing back. And you live to fight another day. And what happens if they find it? You tell me. I don't have a crystal ball. And what about them listening? When do they intervene? Do they intervene, the people who listen? So that's a great question, because what a lot of people ask me is, what would you have said if he found something? I said, well, I'm a jovial, I'm a jokester, right? It's also a defense mechanism when I'm scared. if he would have found something, you know, he already said some pictures of my old lady.

1:06:02If he would have said, what is this? I might've just, I might've said, I don't know, some pictures of your old lady to try to buy me some time. The only other thing I had to say, man, was, um, the gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court or all hell's getting ready to break loose. And I remember just like it was yesterday. Those are the exact words that I would have said, but it would have been a bluff on my part because as far as I knew, every time I'd been in that clubhouse, my team couldn't hear me. Whether it's technology, walls, neighborhood, whatever, they could never hear me.

1:06:39But what I found out that night when I turned in my equipment to meet at a predetermined location, probably like four or five in the morning, I'm handing in my recording equipment and they're giving me more money for the next day or whatever. And, uh, I found out that the, the two task force officers, uh, the Massachusetts state trooper, Thomas Higginbottom and the detective from Brockton, uh, PD Joe Cummings, they started the shift. Something about the first interaction that they heard made their spidey senses go off. And they were like, something's not right. They had pulled close enough for somewhere.

1:07:16They got somewhere where they could hear me. So the entire time I was being stripped in the basement, they heard everything. And they really, that's the beginning of our shift because it's like seven, eight at night, but you know, that's when I'm starting. And, um, they had radioed back to Boston and everybody that was there was coming blue lights and siren. Um, but they knew me at least for a year and a half, they knew me and they were listening. They can, they could clearly hear I was scared. They could clearly hear what was going on, but they didn't pull the trigger because they're listening and they're going okay and they know how that they know that clubhouse because they've been in there for cop stuff they knew excuse me they knew about the they knew about the metal bar across the door and being heavily portified their plan was because they'd already vested up and everything they were strapped if they decided or they heard me start screaming or whatever and they had to they were going to drive the vehicle they ran into the wall right beside the door to kind of breach the wall it must be a good feeling as well though even though you're scared knowing that you've got back up there knowing that you've got people ready to pull the trigger for you as well it it is comforting but we teach don't let that be the reason you got comfort because i can show you video after video where the door is right here it's two adjoining hotel rooms the whole response team is holding on to that door ready to open it to make the arrest bad guy walks in and gets eight gunshots off before they can even open the door so uh it's great to have that it's safe to have that but if you're going in undercover you really need to be prepared to handle stuff on your own because if the crap hits the fan they may just be coming to avenge your death and you need to know that yeah i'm not saying be detrimental and be like oh my gosh i'm not going to make it i mean but you need to be prepared yeah it's not 100 % lifeline yeah maybe hang on long enough for the team to get there you know like this hanging on And what happens if the cover does get broken and they end up busting it?

1:09:12Is that the case then? No more? And obviously you, obviously you must have the evidence. I've done, I've done all kinds of different takedowns and like as many undercovers have, but, um, I've been arrested with the person and then they don't find out till later. Um, I've been not with the person, but they don't know. And then eventually, but eventually on a criminal case, you're going to be sitting with your attorney and you're going to get what we call discovery. you're going to get everything that we have on our case so you're going to be sitting there with your attorney and listening to recordings and you're going to hear me say you're going to hear me go like what is it right here it'd be like my recording would be like hey this is me it's thursday january 22nd 2026 it's approximately 7 30 p.m eastern time i'm going to be going into loft such and such to meet you and then that's that's the beginning of the recording so once they hear that they know i'm the undercover they may not know my last name's pain but they know them, Scott.

1:10:07Was your cover ever blown? No, never was, but close. Like I said, that was very close. Back at the sheriff's office, there was one, I mean, there's been several, but I go thoroughly in the book about them, but I mean, like, just driving around the corner, like, I hop in with a source, this is a sheriff's office level, but they're like, hey, I got my source, he's gonna make a drug buy, you mind hopping in with him? No, not at all. Throw on a big jacket, hoodie, I mean, or whatever, a stocking cap, and then, uh, We ride around the corner, and as we're riding around the corner, I remember being cold and rainy, and as we're riding around the corner, I look at who's running the corner, and I go, oh, crap.

1:10:46And he's looking at me because I was with the Southern Command narcotics team two weeks before that and helped arrest that guy. I'm the guy that got that guy out of the bed and cuffed him. And I'm looking at him running the corner, and I'm like, oh, shit. But I'm sitting there. No, I'm sweating inside because I was young then too. but he's running the corner and he looks at me once he makes eye contact with me he starts walking across the front of the van and he never breaks eye contact with me I don't break it with him and he gets right up to the window and he's staring at me but I'm holding that money in my hand and I go what's up and he goes go ahead now when we arrest him he says I knew you were that cop I said you almost knew I was that cop I said you might have been 75 % sure but you had 25 % doubt and greed won as it always does you saw that money and you went for it um there's those there's been like I'm in a house making a buy and I'm now got some facial hair stuff my hair's growing out a little bit more but like I'm still me right and uh I'm making a deal with this guy in some cabin in the woods somewhere and his brother comes walking in and he's already got a rifle kind of pointed at me, you know, not his finger on it, but he's got it like right here, hand reach.

1:12:06And, uh, he's, we've already gone through the whole thing, man. Are you a cop? No, no, I'm not a cop. Are you a cop? No. Right. His brother walks in and I'm looking at his brother and he says, uh, my brother says you're a cop. And I'm looking at his brother and I'm going, your brother's right. Cause when I was in uniform patrol, I arrested him, but I was like, I'm like, how do I not? I just start, start talking. I'm like, I'm not a cop. How do I know you're not a cop? You know, how do I know you're not setting me up? You don't do nothing. We ain't got, you know, I mean, just try, but there's been things like that.

1:12:36Uh, the white supremacy case, the, the big one that's the beginning and the end of the book, um, where, where my code name was pale horse. I was pale horse in that group. And, uh, the first time I met them face to face, the team that I met that was going to be covering me, we had no idea really who we were meeting or where we were going, which usually isn't the way we do things, but we were doing what we needed to do. They put a tracker, a GPS tracker on my truck, so they could follow me in case they lost me, right? And when I meet these two, I'd say kids, because they're like 21 years old and 19 years old, when I met them, they come walking up, and I figure you're going to check me.

1:13:19I mean, you should. If you're a bad person, when you meet me first, I'd check you. Um, so he comes up and, uh, he says, put your phone on airplane mode. And I'm like, all right, cool. I put it on airplane mode. He's got, he pulls out this device, man. It's about, it's about this big. It's got like a triangle card on it, all these lights and stuff. And I'm like, what the hell is that? I never seen nothing like that. And I felt like I'm rusty. It's not like I hadn't been in the game. I mean, I know they got detectors and stuff. This thing he had was a$500 piece of equipment that picks up any signal, wi-fi bluetooth cellular whatever man rf whatever you you name it and he wands me and i'm like all right cool wands inside the truck and as he starts walking to the back of the truck which is where they put the thing i don't know exactly where they put it but i saw him go under the back driver's side as he's walking down the truck it starts going nuts it's going the lights are going it's got different lights for each thing and i'm like i'm like oh crap it's picking up the gps tracker And I just dropped my foot back because I'm like, I think we're probably getting ready to throw down.

1:14:23And we were on a hill and the power lines were low. And right when he's I mean, right when he's on it, I mean, he just the only thing he had to do is start going up under the truck. The other guy that was with him said, you think it could be the power lines? And he breaks away from the truck. And as he walks to the power lines, it goes nuts. And he goes, man, it's the damn power lines. He goes, follow us to another place. Now, that one, as we're driving, I got my phone. I'm calling the case team and I'm like, you need to cut that tracker off. And they're like, we don't know if we can do it remotely.

1:14:51I said, you need to do it. And they're like, well, if we get it off, we don't know if we can get it back on. I said, I'm telling you, if you don't cut it off, it's going to be a very quick undercover because whatever they have is picking it up. And they almost just found it. What was the white supremacy one? How many was in there? Well, I've done multiple cases like that. But this one, the group called The Base, I'd say fluctuating around 50 members up and down. But I've been in other groups that had hundreds, but they're all online. But the base would meet up and do training in real life, IRL.

1:15:23They would do training in real life and vet face-to-face. And it's really more of like, in the United States, if you say white supremacy, most people think of the Ku Klux Klan, you know, white hoods and robes and stuff. This is not that, man. These cats are accelerationists. They believe in, there's a book called Siege by James Mason, a longtime white supremacist. And they use that kind of as a Bible. They're neo-Nazis. They want Hitler's Germany back. But picture like a doomsday prepper meets a militia person meets a white supremacist because we're out there learning how to live off the land.

1:16:02We're training firearms and tactics all the time. Hand-to-hand combat, anything, because it was to train for what they were referring to as the boogaloo, which would be like D-Day. It would be like the start of the race war. and uh and there was a lot of there was a lot of demonic stuff some satanic angles to it like what um well your accelerationist groups this is their this is their theory they don't believe that there's a political solution that can save the white race they believe society is going to collapse either on its own or for man-made events and they want to speed up that collapse because in their mind when society collapses through through lack of stability um through guerrilla warfare tactics like you poison a water system here you derail a train there you take out a power grid here you kill a lefty journalist here you kill an antifa person here just to create chaos and and and uh lack of stability uh that's what they want to do hence they want to accelerate it the white race anyway is only 8 % of the world we are the minority do they think that's worldwide are they thinking only America because I interviewed Darrell Davis he was the black man that used to go to all the KKK rallies I interviewed him a few days ago I went to Washington great guy he was going to the KKK rallies because everybody's you're a product of your environment but he says because the majority of Americans don't actually ever leave America because when you're multicultural when you go around the world and you see all these different cultures, human beings are good.

1:17:38Social media will make us think the world is falling apart. Oh, absolutely. I've came all around the world and I don't see anything bad. Touch wood, I talk to anyone and everyone and strike up a conversation. Nobody judges by skin color. Nobody judges by classes of how much money you've got. Nor should they. Yeah, but I just think when people are so dumbed down and think very one-dimensional and a very small box, he called it, it's like a grain of sand in the world. You're in this little small box not realizing there's more out there. Not every black man's bad, not every white man's bad, but there's extremists, racists, sex offenders in all walks of life, all genders, all religions, all skin colors.

1:18:19Everybody should be working together to fight evil, but the whole world is divided, and I can understand why people are gravitating to join these crazy things. Here's the thing. The base was worldwide. Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile with your summer price forecast. Now, unfortunately, we're seeing rising costs across the country with possibility that big wireless hates you 100%. Now, over here at Mint Mobile, we're seeing sunny skies and dropping prices. Every plan to just$15 a month. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required.

1:18:56$15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. What was that?

1:19:31Just picture radicalization online because that's where a lot of it's happening. And I'll talk about far right extremism because that's what I infiltrated. But I can talk about far left extremism because I've got peers that work that. We can talk about international extremism. They're all very, very similar in their belief systems. White supremacists end up with their ethno state. That may not be the whole state, but maybe we got a compound in Appalachian Mountains. There was another section of the base that was looking in the upper peninsula of Michigan to set up their compound. There was another section of the base that had property in Pacific Northwest up in, was it Oregon or Washington?

1:20:08Can't remember. I think it was Washington.

1:20:12But if you look at radical jihad, they end up with a caliphate. If you look at extreme far left, they end up with some kind of socialist thing. You start here and you get down here, it's the same thing. They're gonna live in a society where it's only their color or only their type of people and then they get shit for free It's like I'll get everything you know I'm like I remember sometimes I would joke with them because I have to for my own sanity But I we would be like on a ruck, you know be hiking the mountains and stuff and we'd sit down We'd take a break get some water or something and I'm like so we're neo-nazis.

1:20:46Yeah, man I'm like, yeah, so we're all Hitler's Germany back. Yeah, man. Yeah, we're gonna do this We're gonna do that we're gonna accelerate the downfall of society yet and I said, who's going to be Hitler? And everybody just looks and I go, well, there can only be one leader, right? Who's going to be it? We're going to fight it out. We're going to see. And there's not a lot of afterthought. There's not a lot of forethought, but picture this. Like I teach to all the ethnicities, right? But there's a video I have that was a great recruitment video for white supremacy. And you probably can't find it anywhere because if you pull it down, you're probably going to get flagged, but I've got it for purposes of training.

1:21:22but I tell people I go if you're not a white person do me a favor before I play this try to get the mindset that you're a young white male you're a social outcast you've probably been bullied and beat up by some other ethnicity or something like that and you can't get a partner you have a hard time getting a partner you're socially awkward now you sit up all night on that smartphone and you start driving down rabbit holes of telegram and all these different channels and discord and whatever am i saying that everybody on discord and telegram is bad no but am i saying bad people go to those peer-to-peer encrypted networks to do bad stuff absolutely so now you find a like-minded individual now you find a bond because in my opinion human beings we're kind of we're kind of made to connect.

1:22:19Tribalism. Yeah, yeah. I know there's people that say, I don't like being around people at all. I'd rather be by myself. Well, there's some terms for those people, but I'd still call BS on half of them. They would love to be around somebody. They just can't, and it's awkward, and they're lonely. And now you take that and you start twisting it. Radical jihad, same thing. They're going online and they're radicalizing people online. They're radicalizing people here in the United States to do bad things, you know? and it's it it goes i mean it's very similar to me in the 80s and 90s the cults and the gangs a lot of times you find somebody from a broken home uh you know and all that brotherhood stuff you know we're going to beat you in but you got to bleed out if you want to leave and but you're going to be a brother now now you're part of the family hey if you go to prison we'll take care of you we'll put money on your books we'll take care of your family does that happen no and then they come out of prison pissed off because they never got any money on their books and their family wasn't taken care of.

1:23:19And they took the rap for the, and maybe that's, maybe that's where we've developed somebody. Maybe that's where I'm like, Hey, how would you like to provide me with some information? You know, I'm not trying to say, I'm just trying to stop bad things from happening. We don't want innocent people getting hurt. You know, how many people were in this white supremacy worldwide? I don't know. I mean, I've heard, I've heard articles or read articles. I think my article even said it it was like you know there's millions of white supremacists like like neo-nazi like like white supremacy is the number one threat to america and there's going to be nazis on your doorstep tomorrow i'm not saying that but one death is too many one you know look at the look at all these active shooter events that are happening like the buffalo when you see the kid run in there and he's just mowing down non-whites matter of fact on the video he comes around the corner and it's a white kid that works the cash register or whatever at the grocery store and he's down in between the aisle and he comes around and he goes, and the guy screams, he goes, my bad or something like that.

1:24:18You're white. You're okay. He goes and just, it's, it's a sickness, but I will tell you this from what I've seen, there's two things I'll say. Hate begets hate. If the far left does something to the far right, like doxism, puts them out there and says, this person's a white supremacist. And now they start protesting at their kids' schools, their business, their home, and they lose all that. Okay, you won that battle. But over here, you've got far-right extremists going, how many of our brothers have to fall before we start retaliating? And then they start wanting to do stuff back. Hate begets hate.

1:24:54And the other thing I always say is it all starts at home. How organized are they? Some are. Some are very organized. But, again, I've been in a group. I was in a group of neo-nazi white supremacists just online I think I met with them maybe twice uh thousands of posts hundreds of people in that group thousands of put I would go to bed and I would sleep like five hours I would get up I'd be like 2 ,000 plus posts behind and for five months I read every I don't care if I got to go all the way back up I made sure I I I gathered all of it for evidence and I made sure I read everything because I didn't want to be I didn't want to miss something and something bad happened but after five months of reading every racial anti-semitic post I'm like they're they're just talking trash which in America you have first amendment freedom of speech so they're talking trash they're not literally doing acts in furtherance of harming somebody they're just training for it when and if the d-day happens then they want to do something but that that's not an arrestable offense when you see d-day are they planning on killing black people on this day i'm gonna tell you what they hate g's more at least the ones i i was thinking same thing like kkk i infiltrated them too i'm like all right yeah they hate blacks but the the the groups i'm talking about the neo-nazis anti-semitic man they hate jews hate them Why?

1:26:25I don't know. I'm still trying to figure it out. I mean, because Hitler did. But Hitler wasn't even off white, you know? It's like, it's lack of education as well. It's lack of knowledge. And you tend to see human beings have got a lot more in common than people think, no matter what it is. No matter what it is. People probably like sports. We all got to eat. Well, blood comes through our veins. We're all kind of similar. People, if you actually have that conversation, our minds are just walked by choosing a side. like you say left right I don't give a fuck who you are I think it's all I don't care for politics I think they're all corrupt I think they're all full of shit as well I just I'm trying to understand people yeah and I'll interview people like when I interview people from the left the shit I get I interview people from the right the shit I get there's no winning nobody's ever happy why you giving them a platform I'm unsubscribing I'm thinking listen I don't care I'm just just because you don't like, yeah, because, yeah, just because you don't like someone, it doesn't mean people shouldn't interview them.

1:27:29The world doesn't revolve around you. Like people think that's their whole world and you should only be like them. Oh, I know. I mean, look at these protests here. I mean, most of them are being paid to be there, but, um, I don't know how much money they make. Maybe I should go do that for a while, you know, bringing some money, you know, I'll be out there protesting, but I often tell people, I'm like, look, it's okay for you to like something I don't. And me to like something you don't, we can still get along. And I'll usually say, you like to eat food? And they'll go, yeah, I go, me too. That's one bond.

1:27:58You like oxygen? I love oxygen. You know, that's two. Let's just go. You know, uh, it's just so crazy. The vitriol and the hate and, uh, but we've let a lot of it escalate without any retaliation. I don't want to say retaliation. Cause that sounds bad. All I know is where I grew up. If somebody came up and even to this day, probably if somebody comes up in my face and they're screaming at me and they're spitting at me something's gonna happen you know I mean I'm not gonna let you just sit there and do that you know uh but a lot of people have gotten away with stuff and you know I'm a law and order guy um with that being said I look at people as people you know sometimes you can get very jaded when you show up and nobody's happy to see you and people cuss at you and they spit at you You can get very jaded, especially when you're hitting it day after day after day.

1:28:52But I try to take a step back if I can and say, look, that's still somebody's like even like active shooter stuff. Even if there's active shooter event going on and that person, the bad guy is shooting and we come down and we do our due diligence. We do what we're supposed to do tactically and we stop the killing. Bam, put them down. We got all kinds of things we do to get thought. We got a whole thing we teach, all kinds of stuff. but eventually we got to move from stopping the killing once that's happened we got to move to stopping the dying that may mean that if i just shot you and you're the only person that's injured i gotta start working on you even though you were the bad guy shooting kids and the people some people are like screw that guy i'm like yeah but that's still somebody's son that's still somebody could be somebody's dad that could be somebody's brother whatever i mean we still have to do our job what about the satanic stuff oh yeah so in the accelerationist world if you start scratching the surface enough on a lot of the accelerationist groups like adam waffen which is kind of defunct now the base is trying to make a comeback but they just they change their names um you're probably going to find somebody in there uh in most of them that is messing with like order of nine angles and that's white supremacy but it's heavily satanic pedophilia rape um and then you got offshoots of those like the groups now that they're calling nihilistic extremists um not necessarily a white supremacy black supremacy nothing like that it's just that they they but they still want to cause chaos they still want the downfall of society and that's groups like 764 you see 764 or i think there's one like hell and there's like cult um but those are heavily satanic and they are pushing for rape pedophilia self-torture taking your own life a small animal torture and what 764 and those groups are doing is they will get young kids tweeners usually um in the in the teens uh and somehow they get something on them or they're in a group and then they start you can be sextortion extortion whatever it's like hey if you don't if you don't do this we're gonna let your parents know this out and the other and they literally have watch parties where there's multiple people in this zoom meeting or whatever it is whatsapp telegram discord wire and they are, it's a point system and they are forcing people to cut themselves, harm themselves while everybody else is watching.

1:31:20They call it a bean because if you take a knife and you cut up in a navy bean or a lima bean, the center's real white. That's what fat looks like. So they want to see that bean cut. Um, people have taken their lives, uh, like I said, pedophilia, um, harming children, harming animals, and heavily satanic. And it's disgusting. What group is this? That was 764, but there's other ones around them. But you start diving in and you'll see the satanic side to it. So it's like a cult. They're all cults anyway. Yes. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty sick. And it was created by kids. Kids. So that's what I said earlier, and I didn't elaborate on it.

1:31:57For me, it all starts at home. Now I'm not trying to go, we can go off on tangents. I'm not trying to say a mother, a single mother working two jobs who can't be at home. That's not, she's trying, you know, you can be a product of your environment. You already mentioned that. But for me, everything starts at home. What should people look out for parents? You need to be more aware. I tell people all the time, especially with like this pedophilia, seven, six, four, stuff like that. I said, Hey, if your kids are playing Roblox and Minecraft, great. If they're playing Roblox and Minecraft and they're wearing a headset, great you need to know who they're talking to if you're a fisherman do you want to go to a fully stock pond or do you want to go to a pond that don't have any fish in it at all you want to go to the fully stock pond so bad actors like pedophiles or 764 stuff they're going in and they are getting kids through games through stuff like that but the biggest thing i tell people is you got to stop talking about it like it's not happening you got to talk about it like it is happening.

1:33:04I mean, kids with Snapchat in, I don't know, seventh grade, trading naked pics and sex all the time on Snapchat. Back to the baker stuff. So after you got strip searched, what happens after that? I don't sleep. I can tell you that. If I slept, it was about 30 minutes that night. Adrenaline dump. I was pissed too. But the next day we pull it off. We, uh, we did a drug deal. We had 40 kilos of cocaine, thousand pounds of marijuana and 2007 thousand pounds of marijuana is still a big deal. Um, and, and they helped move it. They helped guard it and move it from one truck to another, uh, in order to meet my cartel contacts.

1:33:49And then from there, uh, we did some more stuff. Um, there's, there's, I mean, like the outlaws murdered a hell's angels president um i got the sturges the first day i got the sturges with the outlaws hell's angels shot five outlaws at point blank range i think it was i think it was two women two patch members and a probate but either way very bad stuff and those people were messed up for a long time um and again i'm not saying all bikers are bad either i mean these are i mean I could have been a very good person, you know, but the biker war stuff is crazy. And then it got to the point to where I'd befriended one of the guys who was now the Southeast Regional President.

1:34:36And the plan was for me, if we could make it work for me to go down to Florida and try to patch under that guy. And I said yes, but I didn't realize I was already done. My body and I'd been running for three years at such a pace. I took myself out. I mean, I took the warrior mentality and I applied it to everything in life and it didn't turn out too well for me. But why, surely if they're not getting 500 kilos of weed, surely that's enough to get your conviction. Why do you need to keep going to keep building a case? So a lot of times that's the hardest part, uh, when you're working a long-term case, because you go where the case takes you.

1:35:12Like if it's a dead end and we got to take it down, we got to take it down. If somebody has been hurt, we got to take it down. We take it down. But a lot of times it's hard as a case agent and as the undercover to be like. There's this one guy that just showed up, man. He's got this big deal. Let's just try to get him and then we'll be done. And then it leads to something else. But you got to remember the dope charge was probably on maybe five. I'm trying to think how many people helped us that day. All right. Five to eight people helped us that day. That's not all the outlaws. We've got other stuff where we're working over here, and this group of outlaws did an extortion.

1:35:48This group of outlaws carjacked somebody. These ones are doing home invasions. We're trying to build as much as we can and probably milk it for everything it's worth. But once I crashed, that was it. We just finished it on the phone, and we took it down. How did they pay for their 500 kilos? 50. I'm sorry. We had 40 kilos of cocaine and 1 ,000 pounds of weed. They didn't pay for it. And I set it up. They believe that my cartel contacts, because I was taking all the stolen vehicles to Mexico. So they thought, um, and that really happens in real life. So all I was doing is mimicking what really happens.

1:36:25And, uh, they wanted to get it. If you're a drug dealer, what do you want? You want the purest dope you can get at the cheapest price you can get. So you can make the most money off of it. And they really wanted to meet my cartel contacts. So we set it up to where, hey, there's a load coming through. My guys are going to be driving it. We're going to be meeting another cartel group. They're going to be taking it to Canada. If you want to meet them, let's set it up. And that's what we did. So they protected it. They were like security for it. See, when they're giving you cars, is it not about, like, kind of wary that they might actually bug the cars to see where the cars are going?

1:37:03Could, yeah. And, I mean, listen, we had SWAT teams set up. There were snipers on the roof because we can't let... Can you imagine if the FBI lost 40 kilos of cocaine and it went on the streets and people died from it or something? One gram, you can't do it. So, yeah, we were very concerned about a rip or being ripped off. And that was also what we used them for. It was like, hey, we don't know this. I don't know this other crew. I don't know if they're going to try to rip something off, you know, kind of thing. But, yeah, we were watching it pretty good. Why did they kill the Hells Angels president?

1:37:36It's probably an old beef. That's why they were riding up the road in Bridgeport, Connecticut. It was supposed to be a green truck with Florida plates, and we knew that the outlaws for Florida were up during that time. And then I pretty much confirmed it when I was down in Florida, hanging out in the back, even though I wasn't a patch member. Like I said, they were treating me very well. I parked my bike right at the front door on a world run in Daytona. Daytona Bike Week, world run. pulled my bike right in the front door they walk me in give him anything he wants to drink and I'm not wearing a patch and everybody's looking at me like who the hell is this guy and then I started getting scrutinized it's like who are you where are you from and then uh then I ended up going out back in the tenant area which to my understanding only patch members could go but they pulled me back there and in crappy code they were talking like this guy was like there was there was one outlaw who's pissed he's like I'm gonna kill this I'm gonna kill this guy he goes hey, they're expecting retaliation right now.

1:38:36Wait, wait, let it marinate when they're not expecting it. He goes, you know how long I had to wait before I just did that thing up there? Kind of like, it was like that. And I'm like, is he talking about, because we knew it was Florida guys. And I was pretty sure he was involved. I'm like, is he sitting here talking about that murder right now? But we never did pinning on him as far as I know. What was the retaliation after the hell's angel president got killed uh well you could say maybe that was the retaliation at at Sturgis because after Sturgis I mean after Daytona let me get that right did we do Sturgis first no the hell's angel president was killed before Sturgis right so then Sturgis happens and then five outlaws are shot at close range um so who has the biggest baker gangs in america is the four big names the hell's angels outlaws you've got um banditos and probably pagans after that the top four probably the only place hell's angels aren't in scotland old lenny actually passed away he was the old blue angels president he just passed away and there was like a thousand motorcycles at his his funeral there same as my brother-in-law greg his dad jamie he was President of Oh what they called I forget their name And you should have seen his Just bikes Bike after bikes Hundreds and hundreds But the Hells Angels Is the only place in the world They don't have a chapter Is Scotland Because they fought with the Blue Angels They didn't let them in Cool And I'm not just saying Don't want the fucking Hells Angels Coming for me Do you know what I'm saying But How And then After that then So when does it all come crashing down When do you get enough evidence Obviously you've befriended Scott who's became like her brother, when does it all come crashing down?

1:40:24Because not only have you got the bust, but how do you break the news to him? How does, obviously, he must have been broken half. So the way it ended is because I crashed mentally and physically. I got psychologically assessed. They told me I couldn't go back undercover, but they said I could finish the case on the phone. And there was a guy that had just got out of jail before I crashed, who I met. And he knew that I'd worked in dope and I worked in stolen stuff and he called me. I'm down in McAllen. I get on the phone with him. He goes, hey man, it's me. I'm like, yeah. He goes, so you know what I do for a living?

1:40:58I go, I'm kind of familiar, you know? And he goes, well, I know you're into that magic powder and so am I. And I'm like, all right. He basically says, if I can get him a kilo at 18 ,000 a piece, he has enough to buy 10 of them. So he's got 180 grand. And then he tells me he also has some cars he needs to get rid of. He had a Hummer, a Hummer 2, and he had like a 7 Series BMW and something else that he wanted to report stolen or whatever. And do that thing. So I called the case team and said, hey, he just reached out to me. Do you want me to set it up? And they said, yeah, let's do it. So I set it up.

1:41:36And literally, I'm in my garage. I got two phones. I'm calling Tim Sylvia, not the fighter, but the outlaw guy. I'm calling, I'm calling him and I'm on the phone with the truck drivers who are undercovers. And I'm like, Hey, all right, you know, go here. Okay. Go here, put them together. And even while they're, even while they're meeting him, they call me, the other undercovers call me on the phone. You can hear it on the recording. And, uh, he's like, Hey Tex, I'm here right now. He goes, yeah. He goes, okay. He goes, Hey, puts me on the phone. I said, put him on the phone. So I get on the phone with Tim on his phone and, and I'm talking to him and he's like, Hey, I'm going to report the BMW stolen Friday.

1:42:13I said, can you wait till Saturday? I said, that'll give me 24 more hours before that tracking device. I said, and it'll be in Mexico by then. He said, yeah, I'll wait till Saturday report is still. And I said, cool. And, uh, and then they asked me, uh, my, my friend who was a truck driver at the time. Uh, he says, Hey, how much do you want me to pay him? I said,$21 ,000 for those vehicles. I said, do you see the vehicles? He goes, yeah, I said,$21 ,000. He said, okay. So while they were loading up those vehicles, he asked them, Hey, can you get me? 10 kilos, 18 a piece. And they said, yes. And what we did is, uh, we just did a reversal.

1:42:51They, when they showed up to deliver the dope to him, uh, and he had the money and everything, they came in and did the arrest. That was the first arrest. So I'm in Nevada teaching. Um, I wasn't there for the takedown, but I get back to my hotel room and my phone's chirping and I I listened and Scott Towns left me a message. So I call him and I don't know what time it was in the morning there. I can't remember, but it was early. And he's all raspy voice because he just woke up and he says, Hey Matt, I just want you to know your truck driver. They just call me your truck driver, big T. And, and the other guy that always rides with him, man, he, they said the cops just locked them up.

1:43:29And I said, what? And he goes, yeah, I just wanted to let you know. And I said, well, they weren't up there doing anything for me. I said, sometimes they do their own thing. I said, now they did. I said, we picked up some vehicles from Kimmy or whatever. And he said, listen, man, he goes, I'm going to get up, get in the shower. I'm going to find out what the hell's going on. I'm going to call you and let you know what's up. And I said, OK. And our last words to each other, he said, I love you, brother. And I said, I love you, too. And I hung up the phone. And he didn't know it. But about 45 minutes later, a SWAT team was going to hit his house.

1:44:02And then he went to jail. it must be a mixed emotions of yeah the case is over you've put your whole life into all this time to then also losing a brother who's not going to have your back anymore how do you how do you separate business from friendship uh well it's not easy um especially in that that situation because i mean i'm you know i'm his youngest daughter was one year old my youngest daughter was one year old they're basically moving and talking the same so i'm up there spending weeks at his house rocking his daughter instead of mine. So, you know, it can mess with you a little bit. But, you know, hell, I always liked the guy, you know?

1:44:43So... But as much as you are a good guy... I loved him. You know what? Here's the thing. You have got the ruthlessness in you, though. Yeah, it could have been me. I could have easily been him. It's just that that proverbial fork in the road, I chose to go that way, and I could have gone that way. Is there no way you can try and plant some seeds for him to change his life before it gets too much? Or is he just too far into the job? You got to be careful. You got to be careful. But I did do one thing because he had told me he'd been in the game before and almost got wrapped up into a conspiracy and was looking at 25 to life.

1:45:18And he said he wasn't doing that kind of stuff anymore because he had four daughters at that time. and so before this big drug deal I told him I said all I did was reiterate what he said I said why are you doing this he said what do you mean I said you told me you don't do this stuff anymore because you got four daughters and uh and you don't want to go to jail I said I'm just telling you I know we're I know we're best friends but don't do this for me you don't have to do this and he said nah I'm in now if you listen to him he's going to say he's probably thinking if he wasn't involved and I got hurt or somebody got ripped off he would have never forgiven himself so it's the friendship how was it being around his daughter and stuff like knowing that you're going to put a dad in prison well in the beginning I didn't know if I was going to be putting him in prison or not because he wasn't a part of those big deals And I think if we had him on anything, it was like small stuff.

1:46:19Um, but yeah, I don't know. It's just. So he wasn't going to get a big sentence without that drug deal. The drug deal is a big sentence. Yeah. So, um, but I think I bought some pills off of him or something. We had him on some stuff, but I just, um, that was my one out. That was, I was like, Hey man, I'm just letting you know, you don't have to do this. That was, that was me serving it to him. And he was like, ah, man. And I'm like, well, I try. I mean, I can't say, hey, man, I'm an FBI agent. You don't need to be doing this shit, you know? What would happen if you did do that? Oh, I'd be in big trouble.

1:46:52I'd be in big trouble. I mean, yeah. I'd probably never work undercover again. The Bureau would shut me down, for sure. Because you were best friends with him, do you think he possibly did get involved because you were involved? On that big drug deal? Possibly, yeah. Possibly. to keep me from getting hurt. He's there to protect you, and then he ends up in prison? Because he was pretty petty, no? He wasn't really doing any murders or carjacking, just a few pills here and there? Probably, yeah. But he did get a good chunk of change that day because him and Joe Dawgs got the biggest chunk of money for helping me plan the whole thing and set it up.

1:47:35How much did they get in prison? uh joe dogs and clothesline i think they got 12 and a half i think um scott i think did six or seven six or seven okay that's okay that still sucks ass have you ever been in contact with scott after you got him to jail maybe here's the thing i'll tell you you go on joe rogan in the United States. Uh, my book came out March 25th. I was on Joe Rogan the 26th. It aired the 27th in three months. I was a New York times bestselling author. A lot of people see that. And even some of the people who don't like me see it. Right. And they start blasting me on Instagram and stuff.

1:48:20And I'm like, I'm like, is that chocolate Scott? Is that black Scott? And I hit the button and I go, Oh yeah. It says literally, it says, uh, when you opened up his Instagram account that said chocolate Scott one percenter F you Scott Payne you big bitch that's what it says I'm like that's funny uh then he starts going on all my posts going I'm a loser you suck you know I've seen you naked in a basement you know I think it's crazy stuff yeah and then I just blocked him I laughed at first and I'm like because I could totally see him high I could totally see him smoking weed and typing that and giggling you know but uh yeah that's Blocked it.

1:48:59And what happened after that case? Well, I moved. I mean, I had to, first of all, I had to fix myself. I wasn't allowed to work undercover for a minimum of six months. I had to make sure that, you know, I was taking care of myself. I had to figure out, I had, personally, I had to set up what I call tripwires and accountability buddies moving forward so that I wouldn't do too much. I needed to start learning how to take better care of myself. Were you losing yourself? I was just burning the candle at both ends until I ran out of wax like I would go I I would be a case agent running my own cases training agents running all the tactical and firearms training being on SWAT running firearms for SWAT sitting the desk on the squad and then I would be undercover and sometimes I wouldn't even take my days off because I didn't want my management in McAllen or out of the San Antonio division I didn't want my management being mad at me for not being there.

1:49:56So if I worked all weekend long and undercover, I got back, I would just eat the days. I wouldn't take them. And then I got to where I was working so much that, I mean, I was by the end, by the time I got to Daytona, man, I was a zombie. I didn't, I mean, I didn't, I wasn't paying attention to it, but I was on antihistamines, decongestants, inhalers. I was taking hydroxy cuts. I was drinking the strongest coffee I can make. Um, I mean, it's a cocktail for an anxiety attack. Did you ever worry about someone putting a hat out in you? Well, I've had threats on me before in my law enforcement career.

1:50:33Yes, in the FBI, I mean, you know, if you feel threatened in the FBI and you hit that button and say, man, I feel threatened, the threat assessment team is going to come in and you're probably getting moved and you're not going to have a choice of where you're going. The way I looked at it is because I was a cop, I'm like, look, just take one year in Greenville County, South Carolina. How many people you think I locked up? They're not all felony cases where they're going to be gone forever. How many times do I go to a grocery store, a movie theater, or the mall where I run into people that I've locked up?

1:51:04Or maybe fought, you know, and then locked up. And then you see them. I mean, what do you do? Me, the way I did it is I'd just go up and talk to them. I'd be like, hey, man, how you doing? How you been? How's the family? you staying straight, you know, whatever. Let me know if I can do anything for you. That's how I would do stuff. But I know it is different when you go undercover because it's a different type of betrayal. But I've tried to be respectful, man. A lot of the people that I've even been undercover against, I would leave my undercover phone on for at least 30 days after the takedown just to see if anybody's going to threaten me or anything.

1:51:42And I would get drunk dials. They'd be calling me going, hey, this is your boy, Mike. I know you're just doing your job, buddy. I just want you to know I love you. I'm like, I love you too, man. You know, it's like the business. It's a cat and mouse game. They're trying to commit crimes and not get caught. We're trying to catch them. They always get caught, though, eh? I don't know. My average is pretty good. What's the worst thing about being an undercover cop?

1:52:15Man, if you ask it that way, I'm right now. I'm sitting here thinking a lot. I'm thinking time away from family. I'm thinking the stress on the family. I'm thinking the stress on me. I'm thinking, uh, cause it's in the FBI. It's voluntary. Like again, you're a case agent, SWAT, firearms, tactics, defensive tactics. Those are all collateral duties. You can apply for them. You can get certified in them and you can do them, but it's very rare. I mean, like if you're at Quantico, yeah, you're a full-time firearms instructor. You're a full-time tactical instructor, but in the field, I was still a case agent, still working undercover.

1:52:56Do you have any regrets? No. No. I'm not somebody that looks back on my life and regrets a whole lot of things. There's probably two or three things that I can say that I've regretted. What's the worst thing you've ever seen while you've been an undercover cop? oh there's there's a few uh i mean that white supremacy case we were doing they were saying they were pagan but it's not true paganism they're twisting it to the white supremacy ideology right kind of like hitler using norse mythology and all that stuff so they're twisting it that way but um we did a we did a weekend we did a halloween weekend hate camp and at that hate camp um i passed out in the truck for a little bit and i was woken up to them banging on the window going pale horse pale horse you got to get out and see this i'm like what's up man they're like remember us talking about uh a sacrifice and i'm like uh-huh and they're like we got a goat and i'm like uh-huh you got a goat they went down the street stole a goat out of somebody's yard they only had like three it might have been a ram i don't know the difference really it was big it had horns um and uh they stole it and we go down and do a blot but a white supremacist blot and uh sacrifice the goat like uh we we all pray to our gods uh it was going to be the start of the it was going to be the start of the wild hunt and in norse mythology wild hunt is essentially odin and other gods going out and beating the crap out of their enemies through the night.

1:54:41But the way it was in the twisted ideology of, of the white supremacists was the start of the wild hunt was going to be us starting the cleansing of the world of anti-fash and non-white. Is that like Satanism as well? Uh, you can say that. I mean, some people were praying to Satanic gods, um, um the Venenon was Pantheon um but I I portrayed Norse Pantheon and you know Odin and Freya and things like that I mean I but we went down there we were all in a circle and uh the guy that led the blot whose codename was Eisen he uh he had it's kind of like a machete but I think it was bigger than a machete it wasn't quite a sword somewhere in between and he was going to chop the head of the goat off for the sacrifice he does this whole spiel and he's practicing we're all in a circle i'm holding the back of the goat not sure how the hell i ended up there but that's where i ended up and uh he comes down to strike it and he strikes it hard and it just all you hear is funk and the thing goes bad i don't even think it broke a hair i don't know if the blade was dull i don't know if the back strap on the goat was too thick but i'm holding the back of the guy going oh this is gonna be bad i just started picturing bloody scene and then somebody's like it may take two swings somebody's yelling do it again and somebody's like uh does anybody have a gun now the rule was we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down there but the one guy who was the least qualified to handle a weapon i mean least bad he brought a pistol and when he said i got mine like several of us were like what the hell you know but pulls it out hands it to eisen eyes and chambers around.

1:56:28And as he starts to point towards the goat, he turns his head away. And that's when the instructor in me came out. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. He says, what? I said, dude, we are all in a circle on our knees. Look at what you're shooting at. You're going to shoot one of us. Oh yeah. Pow, puts it in his head, hits the ground. It twitches and twitches and twitches. Now earlier he had told me, cause I said, Hey, hey, is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat? He said, Pell Horse, we got to show this goat love. Let's go on to Valhalla to Odin. This is a sacrifice. We love this goat. Do not let the goat hear you say that.

1:57:04And I'm thinking, I don't think the goat is buying what you're selling. I think the goat's upset right now. You know, I would be if I was the goat. And he says, and we don't need that negativity. We don't need that negativity. And it needs to show up to Odin with love. I said, okay. so when it's still sitting there twitching two minutes later i said man why don't you go ahead and put another round in it because i'm pretty sure it's dead i'm like yeah but you know for the love of the goat so it shows up happy to valhalla you know he's like you know what you're right bam another one and it stops moving well you think you're done nope we're not done now they slice the throat of the goat fill up a cup full of blood and eisen decided to bring acid so he's tearing off i don't do it a couple of us don't do it but he's tearing off hits of acid and under the tongue chase it with the goat's blood to signify to solidify the sacrifice so by the time it gets to me i'm last because i'm holding the flashlight for eisen i think i'm i'm either i'm either next to last or last and i look and it is already clotting it's already getting chunky coagulated and i look down going oh gosh i don't want to drink this i really don't want to drink this and uh one of the guys was like hey man if this i said this is getting pretty chunky he's like you could just dip your fingers so i dipped two fingers deep in the blood sucked all the blood off and then they chopped the whole head off we carried the head around for three or four days uh they cooked it it was not made for eating oh my gosh that was the gamiest meat i've ever tasted in my entire life ate its heart pretty sick what are you thinking when you're in these satanic coats undercover like do you ever laugh and think what's like Well, on that one, I was kind of grossed out.

1:58:49Now, I had fun with them later, the ones that were stripping acid. I'd take the goat's head and go up and mess with them, you know. Why did you do this to me? And I'd be holding their head, and they're like, oh, my gosh. Do you think they've all got mental health issues? Some. Like a bit retarded, whether these are manipulated. Do you know how when you've got the paedophile hunters? Yeah. And they're preying on the creepier, when you see them, chase them with the videos, and they look kind of deformed, like they are an easy target. Do you think these people are easy targets to it? Well, at least in the Bay.

1:59:20Well, in the other groups I've been in, I saw all kinds. But did I see some kids on the spectrum? Yeah. On the spectrum of autism and maybe, but I don't know. I know plenty of people with autistic kids and stuff, and they're not white supremacists, but maybe it's easier to recr - I don't know. How long were you actually - how long did you serve for? How long were you in the police force? Uh, five at the sheriff's office, 23 in the FBI. it's a 28 years total. And how was it when it came to an end? Uh, it's been, it's been different, man. I, uh, I thought I had a good game plan for retirement, but I've learned that, um, I've got some issues and I've learned in, in our community, first responder military, there's a lot of us that come out on the backend and we've got PTSD.

2:00:11We've got, maybe we drink too much maybe you're smoking thc too much i don't know maybe it's you know but i'm learning that it's very common in our community that you've been a go-getter and you've been pretty much an adrenaline junkie i mean car chases at 130 miles an hour and you're four feet off of somebody's rear end shootouts fights where you think you're gonna die stripped in basements, all this stuff. Um, and then all of a sudden it's gone and you're sitting around, you're going, well, what do I do with my idle time? You got to find things. And I will say the first year and a half after retirement, um, I probably sauced it up a little too much.

2:00:58Um, alcoholic. Yeah. Well, I, I won't say I'm addicted, but you know, cause I've, I've quit. I don't have any withdrawals, but somebody, as every alcoholic says, right? I'm not an alcoholic. It's just, I'm wrestling. I'm trying. But it's like, what are you going to do? I mean, the book stuff's taken off. I've been wide open. But I will say that because there's not a steady income, other than my pension, which isn't that much, it's not enough to sustain a family, I can tell you that. and my retirement plan runs on stocks. And there was a previous regime here in the United States and I didn't pay attention.

2:01:39And I lost over half. I lost half of everything I had. And we didn't spend it. It was just gone. And I'm like, oh. So I'm hoping it'll build back up. But I'm out there hustling, man. I'm doing speaking gigs. I'm traveling all over the place. And now that you get more fame, now you've got Fortune 500 companies, Fortune 100 companies. They want you to come speak and hang out and have a drink and tell stories. And it's paying good, but I'm kind of burned out on travel, you know? I hate traveling by myself. And then, yeah, it's just there's bumps in the road, man, but I'm trying. I'm taking it one day at a time.

2:02:19Do you ever feel used? Do you ever feel used? Do I feel used? Nah. By the system? Nah. I'm not like that. I don't really have a victim mentality. I really don't. You can have the same situation, exact same situation, but you think about it differently. Are you a victim? Are you a victor? Are you a victim? Are you a survivor? You know, it's just a different mindset. And generally, I, uh, generally I am always a glasses half full optimist. If I wasn't mentally, I don't know if I could have, me personally, I don't think I could have done what I've done. It would have barotomy, all the stuff you see, because a lot of people don't understand the evil that's really out there.

2:03:03I mean, some people can't deal with it and that's cool. Stay in your bubble, you know, whatever, but just know that there are evil people on this planet that want to do evil things to good people. Not everybody, but they're out there. And it's been that way pretty much since the beginning of time. That's where I think my, my crew comes in, you know, that shepherd mentality, protecting the flock when are you at your happiest oh you're gonna get me teared up um uh i'm the happiest when my family's happy when everybody's happy and we've had some happy times but there's been attacks there's been there's been some things that have happened uh other times i'm happy playing music I'm a musician a singer I freaking love playing and singing uh I love lifting but that's another whammy right now like I went and got stem cell therapy so if you get stem cell therapy they don't want you lifting or doing anything for three months because new tissue's growing old tissue's being repaired and the last time I went I kind of screwed up because I got both knees both elbows and my shoulder shot and I'm like well the only thing I can really do his abs, I guess.

2:04:20I can't, because I can't go too late. I can't do lower body. I can't do upper body. So I'm about, what was it, December, the week before Christmas. So what am I, a month or so out? Not long. Yeah. So I got two more months, and then I can get back in there. And that'll help me feel better too. How's life new? If you ask me...

2:04:43Three months ago, I would have said it was freaking awesome.

2:04:51But, working through some stuff. The thing about you, you'll get there. You always do. And when you go through some stuff, sometimes it's like a cleanse as well. Sometimes you've got to go through that stuff to find better stuff. No matter how difficult it is. You've been through many difficult decisions. But the thing about you, Scott, you've always got through them. No matter what. you just need to navigate yourself through it again what you've always done sometimes you get older and it can be harder but life goes on no matter what we're going through and that's the fucking hard truth yeah that's the hard truth sometimes that storm's hard though of course especially when you've been through storms many many many times in your life and you're like man i'm about to be 55 but do i have to go through this storm right now man do i want to start over 50th in hell no you know um but we'll see man working through it you'll get there brother was there any gigs that you enjoyed you you you love being undercover you actually just get up and fought yep i'm loving this one i love the outlaws other than being stripped in the basement at gunpoint and almost getting found out um but i mean that's my that's my gig i mean just a bunch of testosterone and black leather and we're tossing each other over tables you know what move I like.

2:06:05I like this one. Flammy slamming stuff, you know? Um, I have found in, well, not the pedophile one. Uh, but I mean, even the short-term murder for hire stuff, I find humor. I can find something in there, you know? Um, and there's, there's a lot of humor in the book, but there's some, there's some brash stuff in the book too, but it's all true. Uh, and there's some sad stuff in there and that's true too. But I hear a lot of people say I'm, I'm a transparent person. That's the way I like to be. But I've heard a lot of people after reading that book or listening to it say, man, you're very vulnerable.

2:06:41Like the vulnerability comes through. And I'm like, that's the way I believe teaching works. I could have 10 groups come in here and present their cases and everything went great and it was all cakes and pies. You're not going to remember that. I'll show you a video of me being stripped in the basement. I'll tell you how scared I was. I'll tell you about my wife praying for me and all this stuff. That seems to resonate more. And that's not about me. that's just the way i believe in training and that's when i when i've received great training it's always there's something real attached to it so i'm still trying to pay it forward i'm still going out there and trying to spread knowledge but you know i got a shelf life you know it's all in there but after what 10 years those stories have been told what am i doing now so what bait did you have uh well i've had several in different cases uh the one in the outlaws i had a fat boy i had a fat boy yeah but we put we put ape hangers on it and stretched it out and stuff they're all harleys um on another one i had a 2000 road king and i did the same thing man stretched it out for my long legs put ape hangers on it kind of what i i mean really what i did is i used fbi money to change the bike for the case but i was doing my own research to see if that's what i wanted to do to my personal bike and you know after i did it i was like man this thing feels good and rides good i go that's what i'm doing in my bike i'm gonna put black half hangers on you know so uh but yeah and for a long time it was the bureau that that gave me my motorcycle fix because i didn't have a motorcycle a personal one for a long time but i always had one in the bureau so what's the best advice you have you have ever had what's the best advice you have ever had uh well you know i'm thinking on the teaching stuff um on the top of my head right now because when I crashed mentally and physically at the end of that outlaws case on my rebuild and me coming back and building myself back up and finding out how it happened and not letting it happen again um Joe Pistone Donnie Brasco people like that called me and my nickname in the bureau was always big country said like hey big country I'm like hey what's going on boss man they go you doing how you doing I go I'm doing pretty good man they said listen take care of yourself, take care of your family.

2:08:56But as soon as you can put pen to paper about everything you've learned through this process and what you would, you know, what you found, the positives and negatives, because that's how you pay it forward. That's how you teach. That was some great advice. Did you ever think you would have a book out? No, no, I didn't want it either. I mean, I had friends in the industry. I just wanted to go be a consultant and hang out backstage or maybe even and grab a part on the show if they thought I can act. But then it was the, my friend said, you need IP. And I go, what's IP? And they go, intellectual property.

2:09:29And I go, what's intellectual property? I'm like, I'm a cop, I don't know what you're talking about. And then that's when they made the phone call to the journalist for Rolling Stone Magazine. And we weren't thinking he would bite. He would want to talk to me because we didn't think he really liked law enforcement that much. And, but after talking to me for like 45 minutes he flew down the next week. and then when that came out it was crushing it on apple news we were the top story for months and months and then people started seeing it and then people started reaching out to rolling stone saying we want to talk to this guy we want to do a book and i still said no for months but the journalist paul from rolling stone magazine is very persuasive and he kept wearing me down and chipped me away and he said would you please just talk to two of them and i'm like okay i'll talk what's it of heard the talk and the second group i talked to it was it was pretty amazing and i'm like and they had already done a retired fbi undercovers book and i was like who and they go the art guy and i go bob and they go yeah and i go you still talk to him they said all the time i said give him my number tell him this big country give me a call and i talked to him for like two hours the next day and he's like told me he said he said country you can't do any better man so that's what i did and now i'm very happy i did it yeah you should be like you say you've had a great career you've done some amazing things obviously the goat thing's a bit strange but listen you had to be there yeah yeah for anybody watching brother that's maybe in a life of struggle right now what advice would you have for them reach out to somebody talk to somebody um i say this uh when i'm teaching law enforcement um and we talked about this offline before we started right but or did we already said it number one or we're like very high and suicide we said on this so what i tell people is just go find somebody go find somebody i get not talking to again first responders military we're very high if not deleting and suicide uh substance abuse divorce um and dying within five years after retiring uh and i get the proverbial you don't want to talk to the psychologist at your department because what if somebody leaks it or what if management says, well, we got a problem.

2:11:36You don't have to go there, go somewhere else, find somebody, talk to somebody. Um, I will pretty much guarantee you, you are not the only one going through what you're going through. And you're not the only one who has ever gone through what you're going through. And, and it helps to talk. It helps to cry. I cried a bunch today. I hated it when it was happening, but when it was over, I was like, no, I feel a little better, you know, Sky Boy You're a good man You can see you Where your heart On your sleeve I wish you nothing But the best For the future Again thank you For your book Thank you for your time You should be proud Of yourself And I'm looking forward To seeing what you do For the future my brother Would you like to finish Up on anything else Uh Only thing I'll say Is um Do you hear that That sound right That means that Summer's officially here It means that Grown adults Just sprint Into the street For a frozen dessert Shaped like a cartoon But this summer Mint Mobile Has a better treat Every plan, including unlimited, is$15 a month.

2:12:34And unlike ice cream, it won't drip down your wrist or look nothing like the picture. Does anyone have any cash? Give it a try at midmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three months,$90 for six months, or$180 for 12-month plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. I quoted Martin Luther King. Oddly enough, it was Martin Luther King Day the other day. I quoted him in the book because I saw a quote one time and I was like, oh my gosh, that is perfect.

2:13:00and it says, darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that. That's Martin Luther King. That goes right there. It's like, hey, keep paying it forward. Do the right thing. If you're law enforcement, don't tarnish the badge. Don't. Do the right thing. And take care of yourself, man. Love. Man, it takes so much energy to hate. Have I hated? Yeah. Have I been able? Yeah. It takes so much energy. and it's not rewarding at all really. But you go out there and you spread love, as cliche as it sounds, it's instantly gratifying. Put a smile on somebody else's face.

2:13:39My brother, listen, again, thank you. And I look forward to seeing what you do for the future. And if you ever need a phone call or a helping hand, listen, I'm a phone call or a text message away, my brother. I got you, man. God bless you. You too, buddy.