Amanda Knox

24:22Who knows? Also, people are leaving to go on a trip. Maybe they're like, you know, it could be a thing. Then I go into my bathroom and there's a spot of blood in the sink. And I'm like, huh. But then, of course, I think, well, it's the bathroom. We're all girls here. Exactly. Blood sometimes happens. So, OK, get in the shower, get out of the shower, notice another spot of blood on the bath mat. And I go, huh. She really had a heavy flow. Yeah. You know, who knows? Or definitely someone cut themselves. Yeah. And then I was thinking maybe someone cut themselves and they left really quick to go get like a bandage or something.

24:54I'm just trying to figure out what a normal reason for all of these things to be. Again, context is everything as it always is. Because if you are in Baltimore for the weekend and these things happen, you'd already gone to Baltimore going, there's a lot of murders. But you're in a fantasy. I'm in a fairy tale. And there's no murders in Italy. That's not what I was expecting. Yeah. Worst case scenarios were not, is someone going to hurt me? It was, is someone going to steal my passport? Even in your day-to-day life though, anywhere, you live with people and you see a drop of blood in the bathroom and you go, there must have been a murder.

25:30Then you're actually crazy. Like that's what I would Because I'm paranoid. I'm very paranoid. And then that's what people are like, oh, my God, you're crazy. Also, the interpersonal. Like, if I live with three people and I saw blood on the sink, whoever I already didn't like, I'd be like, fucking Mike's a pig. I might go to straight resentment. Like, fuck you. Couldn't clean up the fucking thing. Couldn't even clean up your cut. Yeah, I'd already be like mad at the person. A hundred percent. Like, imagine that being in your 20s living with people like you're not going to think that. No. And as far as I could see, my house was fine.

26:02Nothing was out of the ordinary. I did have a moment when the front door was open and go, oh, no, did someone come into the house? But then I walk into the house and our TV is there, our stereo is there. Like anything of value that's immediately obviously there is untouched and is exactly as I left it. So then I'm automatically thinking, oh, just someone forgot to lock the door and it's won't open. That's what's going on in my head. The big eerie thing, as it would be, is a shit in the toilet, unflushed. flushed. In fact, so there are two bathrooms in my house, and this is something that a lot of people don't know.

26:32They get the misinformation and the facts of the case wrong. They hear that there is shit found in the bathroom and they think Amanda took a shower in a bathroom that had blood and shit in it. Like, what is she doing? That was the different bathroom. And I didn't know, I didn't see that until I went to go dry my hair in the other bathroom. Okay. I don't even know if I was clear on that. They didn't make that clear on the doc. That's one of those things that the show is going to show is it's like, what are these contextual details that went overlooked all these years? But yeah, that's an incredible.

27:05Yeah. So then I finally noticed that after I'm all changed and ready to go. And I'm like, that is weird. Of all the things that I had seen, that was not something that I expected my roommates to do. And I immediately got that creeped out feeling that somebody was in the house with me. And so I grabbed my things and left and went back to my boyfriend's house. While I'm doing that, I'm turning over in my head all of these weird things that I've seen. And I'm like, am I overreacting right now? Why would someone come into our house and just take a shit and leave? Am I crazy? Did someone just forget and they're in a hurry?

27:41But that doesn't seem like them. So what do I do about this? And I go and I ask Raffaele and he says, you should just call your roommates and ask them. And I'm like, duh. So I start calling and calling. And two of my roommates don't answer their phone. Maybe they're still sleeping. Who knows? How many people lived there? Three. Another thing that a lot of people don't remember is that I had two other roommates. They just happened to be older than us and Italian. I was the youngest. I was 20. Meredith was 21. And then our two Italian roommates were in their late 20s. There's four of you in there.

28:13There are four of us in there. And two, Meredith and Laura don't answer the phone. Filomena finally does. And I tell her what I've seen. And she says, OK, that sounds weird. Go back to the house. Snoop around a little more. See if you can see anything. And then I'll meet you there. So she actually spent the night at her boyfriend's house as well. She wasn't home. So I go back with Raffaele. We poke around a little more and we go into Philomena's room, which we hadn't. Her door was closed. Like, why would I go into her room? We finally open her door and look in her room and her room has been ransacked.

28:44Oh, the window is broken. I didn't know this either. Yes. Yeah, this is wild. Exactly. Exactly. Like the number of things that people think they know this case, but then they don't. They don't. So we open the door and her room is a disaster. There is a broken window. Her stuff is thrown everywhere. But again, her laptop is right there. Her camera's right there. Why did this person start rifling through her clothes when her expensive stuff is there? I asked Raffaele to call the police because I don't even know how to call the police in Italy. I'm calling my roommates. I'm calling my mom to tell them what's going on.

29:20At this point, you're like, there's been a break in. There's been a break in. We're calling the police. We're still sort of trying to assess the situation, but there's been a break in for sure. And we wait for the police to arrive. And when they arrive, they act like they have no idea what we're fucking talking about. And that's because in Italy, there are two different kinds of police. So Raffaele had called the Carabinieri, who are like the state police. The reason he did that is because his sister is Carabinieri. So he's just more familiar with them as an institution. The police that arrived at the house were from the local postal police.

29:55Okay. And they were from the tech crimes unit. And they had no idea what we were talking about. We were like, there's a break and there's a break. And they're like, what are you talking about? We're like, what do you mean, what are we talking about? Like, we called you. We just called you and said there was a break. And they're like, we didn't get any call from you. It starts off in this weird conflictual way. And they're like, well, we don't know anything about a break. And we're here because we found these two phones. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

30:31They are there coincidentally, in a sense. Whoa. It's not a coincidence because it is related. Right, it is related. But coincidentally, they're like, have you seen Filomena Romanelli? Because these phones belong to her, one of my roommates. the one that's inbound who I just spoke to on the phone. And I say, well, they can't be her phones because I just talked to her. This is so confusing. It's so confusing. Exactly. And the language. That's what this show does a great job of that the doc didn't, is the absolute Tower of Babel, which is the experience. If you don't know what anyone's saying, they don't know what you're saying.

31:05And if ever there was a moment where communication was imperative, it's this and it just starts completely wrong. Yeah, from the very beginning, the miscommunication that led to people suspecting me. Here's a great example. So the police finally get there. We finally convince them to go into the house. Philomena arrives. She's freaking out. Her room is like a mess. She's sorting through it to see what's stolen and what's not. And in the meantime, I try to explain to the police officer that I've looked in all the other rooms. Laura's room is like completely untouched. So whoever broke into our house was rifling through Philomena's room, but not Laura's room, didn't go into my room.

31:42And then when I tried to open Meredith's door, it was locked. And I was like, that's weird. And I try to explain to the police her room is locked. Can we break down the door? And they're like, we're not going to break a door. We don't have authorization to break doors in people's houses. And they're trying to tell me, well, is it normal for her to lock her door? And I'm like, once or twice she locked the door. They interpret that as she always locks her door. And then Filomena overhears this and she's like, she never locks her door. So again, like the miscommunication. And I'm like, no, like every now and then she would lock the door to her room.

32:18Yeah, exactly. And so then Filomena is immediately demanding, we break down this door. We break down this door. Her boyfriend breaks down the door and discovers the crime scene, which we had not seen up to that point. And gratefully, in a way, I did not see into the room because I was like, everyone's yelling in Italian and I'm the youngest and I just want all of the adults in the room to figure this out and tell me what to do. Everyone's yelling in Italian. I can't understand what half of people are saying anyway. So I'm just sort of going to back away and they break down the door. And then, of course, everyone starts screaming and they push us out of the house.

32:58I'm picking up words here and there, blood, foot, closet. I'm trying to piece it together. And I initially think, is there like a dismembered foot in the room? Like what is going on? And Raffaele then is able to talk to the other people and get an idea of what's going on. There's a body, it's under a blanket. They don't know who it is, but they think it's Meredith. And I just go into shock. Of course. and I spend the next several days in and out of the police office. I was ultimately questioned for 53 hours over five days. And those scenes are so intense. Those are the scenes in the show that I was most concerned about getting right.

33:40To like 10 hour shoot days. And those were the days that you were quite vocal. Not in the sense that I didn't trust everyone involved, but that was the one that I really needed to get perfect because there's so many misconceptions about what interrogations look like. Everyone has a fantasy version of it in their mind, and no one really knows what it looks like. And one of the things that I'm a big advocate for now in criminal justice reform world is really trying to push back on this distinction between an interview and interrogation. Are you guys familiar with this concept? Okay, and this is vital.

34:14So this is true both here in the United States and in Italy. It's kind of a universal thing where police say there's one thing which is called an interview and there's another thing which is called an interrogation. And the reason why it's very important to distinguish is because there are different rights involved. If you're in an interrogation, you are in custody and you are being accused and you have the right to an attorney. If you are just being interviewed, we're just talking. We're asking questions and you have no right to an attorney, even if they start asking questions that suggest that you are guilty.

34:52And so a thing that's an ongoing battle for me in my own case, but also just in general in the criminal justice world, is pointing out that this distinction between an interview and interrogation is just a loophole for police to deny you your rights. It's very arbitrary. It's so arbitrary. It's so subjective. Yeah. And at no point was I ever informed I was a suspect. At no point was I ever given the opportunity to have an attorney present. Or even to say, I'm not answering. You wouldn't know if you're just like, I'm just here to answer questions. Right. And they'll say things like, well, you were always free to leave.

35:28It didn't feel like that when you had the door closed on me and a cop between me and the door. You're yelling at me and telling me I have to answer your questions or I'm not cooperating with the investigation. that doesn't feel like I'm free to go. Yeah, exactly. Okay, now here's where I'm going to project a bit. Yes, please. What I also worry about when I fear this situation happening to me is I am really bad with authority. You get attitude? I do. I don't like being subjugated. I don't like being talked down to. Every time I'm watching a doc about someone wrongly accused, I'm like, I'd fuck myself over because I could only take so much and I would be very confrontational and look like I was guilty.

36:06Well, here's the thing, though. Whatever you do looks like you're guilty. Yeah. Right. I was not like you in the sense that I, at this point, was still sort of getting over the shock of my roommate being murdered. And I'm in a foreign country with no one. I've met my boyfriend a week before. All of these people are new. My automatic reaction is to lean on the police and to trust the police. And so I'm actually looking to the police for reassurance, for guidance, for comfort. And increasingly, I'm discovering that they don't want to comfort me or give me guidance. In fact, they are becoming increasingly hostile towards me.

36:47And I don't know why. If you could break down in the 53 hours, how deep into that do you think before you realized, oh, oh, oh, they think I did it? I didn't realize that until the final interrogation. So again, five days of being questioned. I noticed that they were being a little hostile towards me. And again, it also depended upon the cop. Because that's a really important thing that we show in the show is that there are lots of cops in this room with me. And some of them are really nice. Some of them are trying to comfort me. But the way that they're comforting me is by saying, we know you've gone through something terrible.

37:21We know you've witnessed something terrible. We're just trying to help you. You need to help us so we can help you. Part of them is coaxing and other ones are being really punitive and yelling at me as they're getting more and more hostile with me. I'm interpreting that as they're under a lot of stress because they're trying to make sure that there isn't a serial killer on the loose. I think they have their work cut out for them because this murder makes no fucking sense. Yeah. You're their best lead. Yeah. And, you know, I don't know anything. Exactly. I'm their best lead. Yeah. Like if you're looking to me for answers.

37:55And again, talk about horrible situations. It's not like Meredith was drunkenly stumbling down a dark alleyway somewhere and got attacked. She got walked home by her friends after having a nice dinner with them and watching a movie and was getting ready for bed when she was attacked in her own freaking bedroom in her own freaking house. That's the other thing. Because the story, not this story, but the story is about you. No one knows about her. And no one knows about the person who really did it to her, too. No one knows about the other, quote, characters in the story that are very important, and especially the victim.

38:37Because it was eclipsed by the media portraying you in this way. Like, you became the story. And there's a dead woman. And all these people don't even care to know. Exactly. And then in the scenario that I find myself in, I'm like, okay, here's a girl that I met five weeks ago. I don't know her very well. Of course. Right. But I know that she didn't have anyone who disliked her. I'm trying to imagine if someone was targeting our house. Like it felt like someone was targeting her. And so I was like, why would someone attack her? And I'm trying to think who could do something like this. It's just beyond me.

39:15And so in those early days, I'm trying to navigate this and I'm feeling like the police are getting more and more impatient with me. The thing that they told me is that any little detail that you might remember, maybe there was an interaction between her and a boy at a bar. Maybe it isn't meaningful to you, but it could be everything to this investigation. I'm sitting here trying to like rack my brain. Okay. In the last five weeks, was there any little thing? And I even point them to a creepy guy that we met at a bar, but of course he's has nothing to do with it. And I don't know what the fuck's going on.

39:48And then we get finally into that interrogation. And there is a huge confrontation that I was not expecting because I wasn't even expecting to be interrogated. I wasn't even called into the police station. My boyfriend was, and I was just afraid to be at his apartment alone, understandably. So I followed him to the police station and I thought it was going to be like a half an hour, an hour at most. So I brought a book to read. I was sitting in the waiting room, but then a police officer cozies over to me and starts chatting. And then that chatting turns into, have you given more thought to maybe any weird interactions?

40:26And I'm like, okay, I'm answering these same questions over and over again, but no, I still don't know who could have done this. And then another cop comes over and is like, wait, are you talking about the case? And he's like, yeah, I'm just asking a few questions. They're like, well, then we have to write it down. So they sort of bring me casually into this office that's not an interrogation room. It's just an office. There's like filing cabinets and books. And it's a normal room where I've been questioned. Everyone else has been questioned. And then they say, you've been lying to us. And immediately I'm just like, oh, God.

40:59And they're like, we know about the marijuana. Yeah. So this is really important. And God, again, this is a part that scares me so much is in the effort to cover up something benign, often people seem like they're dishonest. Right. And it's like everyone involved was smoking weed and everyone involved was like, hey, don't mention the weed. Wait, what? So, again, I don't know about this. All these little facts. Yeah. So what happened? This is actually unknown to me, but the boys who lived downstairs from us, they were growing marijuana in their bathtub. Okay. And so they had a significant amount of marijuana in their possession.

41:37And because Meredith was dating one of them and because we all lived in the same house, the police were like, there's no fucking way that Amanda's telling the truth when she says, oh, no, we don't smoke marijuana. Her roommate specifically said like, hey, when you talk to the police, just don't tell them about the marijuana. Which again, I'd be like, yeah, yeah, obviously. Yeah, obviously. Why would I just bring forth incriminating information? Yeah, I'm here on a student visa. I don't want to be kicked out of the country for possession of marijuana. So I'm confronted with an actual lie. But now they say, what else are you lying about?

42:18And so the dissent. And you're like, nothing. Nothing. I've told you everything and I'm sorry. And now I'm trying to ingratiate myself with them again to be like, no, I swear I did lie about that and I'm so sorry. And I'm immediately on this sort of wobbly foot. They're like, the things that you have been telling us are inconsistent. And it's like, is it because my language isn't good enough? I'm trying to talk to you in Italian. I'm not fluent in this language. Why wouldn't they bring in an English speaking? Well, I had no right to a translator because I wasn't being interrogated. Remember? I'm just answering questions.

42:52It's just a chat. You don't need a translator for a gentle chat. But I mean, that just goes to show that they really, really did not care about finding the person because they would want to have an English speaking. Well, to their defense, in their defense. In their defense. I believe, and everyone that I've worked on in this show also believes, and I want to give credit where credit's due. Like, I did not make this show by myself. The creator and showrunner is KJ Steinberg, and she did years of research to uncover things about this case that I didn't even know. Wow. This is like her big, beautiful project.

43:24She devoted herself, gave her full heart to this project, researched the shit out of it, and discovered that the police had already suspected me from day one. Now, as I was watching the doc years ago, there's a lot of different things on trial here. The one that stuck out most to me, and maybe you'll disagree, is just this kind of deep misogyny. Oh, yeah. That is cultural and it's so powerful. Like the most key sentence to me is that the lead prosecutor says, well, the killer covered her with a sheet. Only a woman would do that. And it's like, stop, stop, stop. What the fuck are you talking about?

44:05Based on what? What study are you quoting right now where they did a double blind? I mean, that's insane. And now because he's so committed to that, once we find out there's more people involved, then it's like, well, but she still has to be there to put the sheet on. Because, again, this guy would not put a sheet. There were numerous things along the way. It was like men do this and women do this. So, therefore, a woman must be involved. Confirmation bias, like by the clearest example. I believe this and I will find things that support this. Yeah. Well, the grossest version of this was to go back to how Meredith was erased from this whole ordeal.

44:37Who Meredith was as a person is not the person that was represented in court. We talk about character assassination of me. That was obvious. I was called Luciferina in the courtroom. I was a literal she-devil in the courtroom. That's who was on trial. But even Meredith, who is this girl from Leeds, England, who was a tour guide, who loved to dance to music, and who was just starting to hook up with this guy downstairs. being a young girl, studying abroad, having fun. She was turned into this uptight, judgmental bitch in the courtroom. Oh, because they needed to give you motive. Exactly. So the motive was, here are the two epitomes of women.

45:23The Madonna and the whore. The Madonna and the whore. It's so basic. It's so biblical, but also it's a witch trial as well. So additionally, like the other layer of misogyny for me is we have had now for hundreds of years this notion of witches. And what do witches do? They're very sexual and they kill children. This crazy cartoonish idea of a witch. And you were that, like, a crazy deranged sex orgy. That became the premise. Yes. And that you were hypersexual. Well, they had to explain how a woman could be guilty of a man's crime, right? Yes. Meredith was raped and murdered. She was found. Someone had ripped her clothing off.

46:01There was DNA in her vagina. Like this was a man's crime. And they're like, but we've arrested a woman. And so how do we make a woman guilty of this man's crime? We make her the orchestrator of the rape. And also, oh, inconveniently, the guy whose DNA is all over the crime scene. He has no relationship. He played basketball with the guys who live downstairs. So they could sort of say maybe he encountered Amanda. And so maybe Amanda, maybe they don't have evidence, But maybe Amanda and him had a secret love affair. But in the meantime, Raffaele, who is my actual boyfriend, has never seen this man in his entire life.

46:41Right. And so the way that they explain this is that the crime was all my idea. And I was in a secret love triangle between these two. And so I decide to put my two men to the test and see what they're willing to do to pleasure me. so I have them rape my roommate for me and then hold her down so that I can stab her to death. That's the story. If it didn't end so fucking horribly, it's laughable. It is laughable, thank you. It is. This is so deeply absurd. But if you drill super deep into it, I think it's quite fascinating because, again, under it is all this male insecurity. Like, you're an insatiable sex machine that cannot be satisfied, which is just males deep fear they will not satisfy a woman.

47:31Yeah. There's so much gender shit in it. It's bonkers. And also just that a sexual woman in general, of any kind, is bad. That then makes them capable. Well, that's true. They got that. Well, sure, sure. You're right. You're right. In the doc, when someone was asking you, why did he ask you something so deranged? Like, have you ever done sexual? The Chris Cuomo interview? That also is in the show. But there are some really bad interviews. Bizarre questions that are coming your way about your sexual history and are you like into sexual deviance and stuff. Directly to your face, they are asking you these questions.

48:09I was like, what if the answer is yes? That has nothing to do with murder. Yeah. I made friends with a bunch of dominatrixes after this because I was like, how does it feel to have your lifestyle demonized in law? I was really surprised by their answer because they were like, well, we're really surprised by that because actually professional dominatrixes, at least here in L.A., this is where I met them, have a really good relationship with the police because the police use them as helpers to understand if there is an actual domestic violence situation or if it's a kink scenario. Oh, interesting.

48:42And because in the kink world, there are certain ways that you hurt people, but you don't do any sort of like legitimate harm. It's pre-negotiated. Sensual. Well, and there are rules like they will never hit you in the kidneys, for example. Exactly. So if somebody shows up with a wife who's been kicked in the kidneys and says, oh, we were just doing sexy stuff, a dominatrix is going to go, uh-uh. That's not what we do. Right. Yeah, that's interesting. Like, this is the sign that it's domestic violence. And so they actually have a good working relationship. But I doubt that they had that good working relationship in Perugia.

49:15Exactly. In Italy. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so you're getting into the misogyny, but then you're also veering into a very Catholic country as well. Yeah, I was not prepared for that. Here, famously and accurately, I think people will say like, oh, we'll have a female president before we have an atheist president. We'll have a black president before we have an atheist president. Like, that's still very true. Oh, 100%. And that's here. And there it's amplified because it's much more Catholic. Absolutely. There was a huge cross of Jesus above the judge in my courtroom. Wow. So if you're godless, which you weren't shy about saying, at least in the show.

49:52Yes. You're evil. Oh, yeah, you're evil. I have no moral grounds. Nobody's guiding me. Why wouldn't you kill? Because you won't have to pay. Yeah, because you don't rape and murder people unless you don't believe in God. That's right. And people who believe in God don't rape and murder people. Never. Of course not. Of course not. And they certainly don't molest people. Right. Definitely not. Definitely not in the Catholic Church, especially. Yeah, so, man, a lot of my trigger—this is like— Yeah, I'm sorry. Hand-built from all my things that I hate. Are you kidding me? You should be sorry. I want you to comfort me for your story.

50:23Well, I don't know, though, because I think that one thing that actually is really nice is when people find my story relatable. Yes. Because for so long, I was just an other. Yeah. I felt ostracized and like nobody understood me and no one could understand me because they had not gone through this experience I went through. But one of the things that I push back on is it's like, well, bad shit has happened to all of us. We've been lied to and we've been hurt. And that's what happened to me. It just looked like this. And also there's all these different shapes for the same experience in some way.

50:55So that's a huge trigger for me because I had stepdads who showed up and all of a sudden there was a whole new game plan and a whole new set of rules and none of them made sense. And they were very arbitrary. Sounds like a new cellmate. Yes, yes. Because you are trapped, right? You're trapped. And now the social dynamics of the thing that you're trapped inside are completely changed. And the strongest person in the room is going to impose a new reality on you. That's like getting a new cellmate. Yes. So I just could relate, even though I can't, to just this notion of like, fuck, the people that have all the control have an entirely different reality than I have.

51:29Yes. And they're in charge. I don't know for how much longer. And that's such an important part of what I was trying to convey in the show is that I think the police truly believed that I must know something that I'm not telling them. and they're all tired and they are under a lot of pressure. And they're like, if we can just get this girl to tell us what she knows, we can all go fucking home. This will all go away for me. Yes. In your case for 53 hours. So imagine last week's work week plus two more days, that entire time you were there, someone was asking you the same question over and over and over again.

52:06And at some point you're heavily incentivized. You just want them to go away. You want them to stop asking. You want to give them an answer that'll make them stop asking. you. But especially when they introduce this idea of blackout. Oh, right. So this is a really common interrogation technique. So once they've sort of like broken you down and made you feel bad, they basically give you an out. They say, well, maybe you aren't telling us the truth, not because you don't want to tell us the truth, but because you don't remember what the truth is. I'm so susceptible to this. I know you thought you could be convinced you were a man.

52:40We had a guest ask. Wait, what is this? Tell me about this. This is incredible. We had this guest on. It was Jonathan Haidt, I think. So he was like, I couldn't make you believe you were a woman. I'm like, yeah, of course not. I have a penis between my legs. I can feel it. You could never convince me. And Monica was like, yeah, you could. I was like, I mean, if you showed me some tests. Yeah, he said if you showed me DNA, if I showed you DNA. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yes, I am. I'm not so arrogant to think I know everything. So I would be susceptible. It's fun. I would be susceptible. Yeah, I'm jealous.

53:13I'm jealous. That's kind of the crux is on the one hand, it's great that you are confident in your perception of reality. But so was my prosecutor. Yeah, exactly. And he was so confident in his version of perception of reality that he imposed it. Well, he had more leverage to do so. But he also was so closed off, he couldn't even begin to see that maybe we have it wrong here. Right. But you made a good point and I appreciate you doing it. And I kind of try to do the same thing all the time too, which is you have to acknowledge they're weirdly in a similar situation as you are because they have all of Italy saying, figure this out right now.

53:51This is scaring the shit out of us. And you guys have got to figure this out. If anyone else that was murdered in any other place, you'd have people that knew her for 30 years you could talk to. You could really construct something. But man, they have nothing. Yeah, they're used to tracking down drug dealers. They're not used to homicidal maniacs in their midst. Yes, completely random, completely not a family member, not a lover, all those things. Because they had ruled out the boyfriend is my assumption. Well, he was out of town for the weekend. So he had an ironclad alibi. So very early on. And also, maybe I should clarify, one of the reasons why they thought that someone like me was involved is because from the beginning, my prosecutor believed that the break-in was staged.

54:34He thought you couldn't get in that window. He thought that a burglar would have broken in in any other way besides the way that he broke in. He could not be convinced that a burglar would break in to that window of all the windows that he could possibly break into. Sure. Therefore. You're a killer. Someone who has access to the house is involved in the crime and is trying to cover it up. So this is a conspiracy. Yeah. And this conspiracy suggests maybe multiple attackers. We also know that the only people who have access to this apartment are girls. And we know that a man at least was involved in this crime.

55:14So a man is involved in this crime and one of the girls who lives there is involved in this crime. It's puppet mastering this whole thing. Yeah, just a terrible reverse engineering. Exactly. So it's logical if you assume. It's impossible to break in. Exactly. Yeah. So the alternative is someone did break into our house and they did break in through that window. and I don't fucking care what you say. That's the one that they chose. It's not the most logical entrance. Also, what's logical about breaking it? It's all. Well, I see his point that that window was kind of high up. There were easier windows.

55:46But again, I see his point, but you can't build everything on top of that. He couldn't distinguish between what is a fact and what is an opinion. He was looking at a number of facts and then he drew a conclusion, which was his opinion from those facts. When I talked to him, because I continue to talk to him to this day, That is a sticking point where he's just like, but this is a fact. No burglar would ever break in through that window. And I'm like, well, that's not a fact. That's an opinion. Exactly. A fact is that here's a window and here are other windows and this one's broken and other ones are not broken.

56:17Those are facts. Yes. Your interpretation of those facts is not a fact. Yeah. It's an opinion. Again, the fact that only a woman would cover the body. It's like, that is not a fact. That's not a fact. That's an opinion. But you're treating it as a fact because you are so confident in your perception of reality that you are willing to impose it. And that's the danger. So, OK, I'm still a little confused on this part. So at some point they hand you a piece of paper and it's a long confession in Italian. Yeah. So what they do is once they've completely broken me down and I don't know what's true or not anymore and they've invited me to remember the truth, a.k.a.

56:57imagine an alternative memory. I try to imagine an alternative memory. Are you open to that notion? Because you're just so at this point exhausted. I'm very scared. Yeah. And they finally bring a translator in. It's the middle of the night. I'm exhausted. I haven't been able to sleep anyway these five days because my friend has been freaking murdered. Exactly. And I'm scared and I don't know what's going on. And they start telling me that what I think is true is wrong. And I'm like, I have actual memories of being at my boyfriend's house. And they're like, well, the mind will do crazy things. Doesn't that seem like other nights that you were at your boyfriend's house?

57:34Maybe your mind is trying to cover up the fact that you've witnessed something terrible. I mean, this is my opinion. This isn't a fact. But I don't think people who murder don't want to murder and then they do. I mean, obviously, for self-defense and things like that, that's a different case. But like, I didn't want to murder anyone, but I guess I blacked out and murdered. That doesn't happen. It's like Paul Bloom saying, there's no hidden memories. Remember he just said that? He thinks there's no repressed memories. That's not real. Yeah, well, and I think, I don't know what's really going on in our human minds because there's so much that we don't know about our own minds.

58:06Sure. Maybe there is such a thing as repressed memories. All I know is that the evidence has shown that the mere idea of a repressed memory has been used by law enforcement and psychologists. And it is the reason why the whole satanic panic happened. Exactly. Because they're like, you don't remember being a part of a satanic ritual, but you have depression today and it must derive from something. You're in a trance. Maybe you were molested as part of a satanic sex crime thing. And then you're like, maybe. This is called cognitive opening. A cognitive opening is when something happens in your life that leads you to be more receptive to new ideas and new ideology.

58:47And typically that happens when something tragic and unexpected occurs. and so here I am in a panic because all of these cops are super mad at me they lie to me and they tell me they have physical proof that I was there when the crime occurred I'm like how is that even physically possible and then they're saying to me well because you are a victim of this whole thing you just witnessed it and you don't remember but here's the thing we're gonna have to punish you if you don't remember because people are gonna think that you're just trying to help the murderer And so we really need you to remember what happened now, because this is the moment.

59:24And they find this text message on my phone from the night of the murder where I'm texting back and forth with my boss. I waitressed every once in a while at this local pub. Again, miscommunication. They misread my text message. He had texted me and said, hey, it's a slow day. You don't have to come in tonight. So I texted back. Certo, ci vediamo più tardi, buona serata. Certainly, see you later, have a good night. They read see you later as see you tonight. And so they say, here's proof that you're lying to us. Here's proof that you met with this Patrick person instead of being with your boyfriend.

1:00:01And so here's proof that you're either lying or you don't remember what really happened. What did Patrick do? And the translator didn't say like colloquially that's an American thing. Well, we didn't have a translator yet. The translator came later and her big contribution to this whole thing was to tell me a story about how she was once in a car crash and she was just driving along in her car and then crashed and woke up in the hospital and she blacked out.

1:00:31Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:00:43Now, here's a very troubling aspect of interrogations. Two things I can't stand. One is that they can actually legally say we have your DNA. Yeah, the lying. What's crazy and no one's, I don't think, realistic about is you could be presented with a situation that you still reject. But you could go, if they have my DNA, I'm getting the electric chair. Yeah, I'm being crammed. So somehow they have my DNA. I don't know how. They can't have it, but they have it. And I know that the result is electric chair. Or now I lie to get something less. That's a decision you have to make. Some people cave and think, well, I'm so tired of this interrogation.

1:01:21I know the DNA is wrong. So I'll just tell them what they want to hear so they can leave me alone. And then I'll let the evidence prove my innocence. But that's not how it works. Do you think what happened in your moment? I was led to believe that I was insane. Psychologists identify two different kinds of false confessions. So one is coerced complacent. You are just become complacent. You're like, fine, I'll just tell them and like, it'll all be over. and then the evidence will sort it all out. That's one kind. Then there's internalized false confessions. So I was led to believe that I witnessed this crime and that I blacked it out temporarily.

1:02:00I'm in this heat of the moment and I'm like overwhelmed and I try to start imagining and then I'm imagining things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't actually imagine the murder because I still don't know anything about it, but I imagine being in my house. I imagine being with my boss, Patrick, and it's enough for them to type up their own little narrative in Italian, put a sheet of paper in front of me and say, sign it. And with that, I doomed myself. Yeah. Oh, this is the nightmariest part of the nightmare. I don't think any of this would have happened if, you know, that. Are you disassociated from it when you're talking about it right now?

1:02:42I disassociated in the moment. That was the time when I most had this out of body experience was when they were yelling at me and like hitting me. I completely disassociated. And it was like I was watching myself in the room and being like, what is happening? That's the one time I've had that. Today? Are you there again or has enough time passed? I just want to know where you sit. I mean, it's both. On one hand, it does feel like it's a whole other life ago. You know, a different person. I was a 20 year old kid who had never had anything bad happen to them. And I look back and feel so much pain and sadness for this kid who was going through this.

1:03:19And so in that way, I sort of disassociate. But then I remember what it felt to be hit. I remember their voices. I will never forget. After they get what they want, suddenly they're very nice to me and they're like, oh, do you need something to eat? the cop who hit me took me down the stairwell. In the stairwell was like, you know, I'm sorry I had to hit you. I really just needed to help you remember the truth. As if like memories are marbles that you just like hit the bottle. Now, do you have, and I hate asking this because my journey with getting over being molested was people said, oh, it's not your fault.

1:03:53And I was like, yeah, but I remember, oh, I don't like this situation, but I want this thing. I did ignore my instincts, right? I had to forgive myself ultimately. I just put myself in your shoes. I think I would have tortured myself about that night a lot. I think I would have shame about I should have been stronger. Do you have any of that? So I hope you don't mind when I say this. Let me make a comparison. So my situation would be you get molested, right? And then later you get convicted of seducing your molester. So that's my current scenario. I'm still convicted of having falsely accused an innocent man during my interrogation.

1:04:42They say I willingly and intentionally knowingly accused an innocent man during my interrogation. Sorry, interview. This is the slander conviction. Yes. In a real way, I am blamed for what happened to me in that room. To this day, I am shamed. I am vilified. Three of the years that I spent in prison, they deemed rightfully served. Oh, my God. Because of the slander conviction. 18 years later, I'm still fighting that. On the one hand, yes, I lived for years feeling so much guilt and shame and feeling like everything that happened to me in that interrogation room was probably my fault. And it wasn't until I met other wrongly convicted people and I talked to experts and police interrogations that I realized that it wasn't my fault.

1:05:28But now I spend my entire adult life trying to convince people and doing so not just because it helps me with the trauma of it, but also because there are common sense things that we can do to prevent these things from happening in the future. One of them is banning lies during interrogations. I can't believe that is legal. It's legal everywhere in the United States. Some states have recognized that minors, anyone 17 and younger, shouldn't be lied to. That was in the Making the Murder Doc. Remember, they got that poor kid and then he wanted to know if he was still going to the WWE, if he could watch it.

1:06:07Yeah, Brendan Dassey. Yeah, heartbreaking. Okay, so you were self-flagellating or you won't? I was self-flagellating for a long time. You think if only I had been stronger, if only I had been smarter, if only I had been more courageous. I thought that what happened to me was that I was a coward. That's why I asked. That's my fear. Because God know you weren't. If there's any fucking headline of your story, it's that you're indomitable. You're so resilient. You're really indomitable. Thanks, guys. No, it is. I hope people are telling you that every day. You're fucking indomitable. You know, it's funny.

1:06:38There has been one moment in my whole life of this where I have felt indomitable and unstoppable. And that was when I decided to go and confront my prosecutor. Yeah, let's get to that. Sorry, yeah. So you do four years, you're convicted twice. Ultimately, a higher court does throw it out. Yeah, four years in prison, eight years on trial. I spend the first four years in prison and then another four years in freedom, but facing extradition, trying to be a person, but stalked by paparazzi. I heard you talking about this, and I think this is really profound. You're in that prison for four years the entire time going, I just got to get my old life back.

1:07:18You can see your old life. You're going to go eat sushi when you get home, right? The irony is, even if that event didn't happen to you, they would never be getting your old life back. Even if you were just there as a student, you're 20, you're going to start another chapter. You were never going to get your old life back. I was living in a state of denial because this thing had sort of taken me out of what felt like my real life. Yes. It felt like my real life was going to be there just waiting for me. Yeah. But it never was going to be. And that's probably a very hard lesson to learn from your perspective because there's such an obvious explanation of why your life doesn't exist anymore.

1:07:54But also it wouldn't have. Anyway, so, yeah, you return home and now you're 24 and you've had this entire experience and you're known around the world. And the bravery to not get defeated by that moment where you come home and you realize like, oh, no, I have nothing, basically. I'm kind of back to the drawing board. I'm going to have to start and build an entirely new life. I had a very hard time. And this is something that both Monica and I as executive producers and, of course, KJ because she. Lewinsky for people who don't know. Yes, Monica Lewinsky, who's executive producing the show as well.

1:08:24What was really important for us was to show the aftermath. Like, you think you know what this story is. There is a whole life that you have to figure out and rebuild from below ground. Yes, yes, yes. After something as traumatic as this, it's not pretty. I'm still a 24-year-old kid who's in some ways deeply matured and in other ways is completely oblivious and naive. Oh, so you're going to go get a job where everyone there knows you? And hope that the people who are sending you death threats don't just show up at your job and murder you. You said you made a lot of mistakes. We are able to show some of this in the show, but part of it was me wanting to act like I could have a normal life.

1:09:10I would be in hiding and hiding and hiding. And then I'd be like, but I just want to go to my friend's Halloween party, be a normal person. And then I'm followed by paparazzi. And we don't show all the mistakes that I made in the show. I really pushed for more episodes so we could get really into the mistakes. But if anyone's really curious about some of the really bad mistakes I made, that's what's in my book, Free My Search for Meaning. And I'll give you one example that's in the book, but didn't make it into the show just because the real purpose of the show is to show me going back to Italy to confront my prosecutor and what were all the things that led up to that.

1:09:45This little detour that I talk about in my book. So dating is kind of hard when you're, you know, a sex monster in the eyes of the world. This just is so sad. Dating's hard enough. Yes. So then I I stumble upon a very, you know, handsome, nice person who tells me that he just got out of jail for a crime he didn't commit. And I'm immediately predisposed to believe him and to sympathize with him. And because I have spent years now trying to navigate a world that doesn't seem to feel like there's a place for me that just wants me to disappear and wouldn't be surprised or upset if I just offed myself.

1:10:28here's somebody who could understand me. Yes, yes. I'm all in on this person. And then I realize that he was not, in fact, innocent of domestic violence and breaking and entering. And in fact, this person who now is in my home is very, very much like the man who murdered my roommate. Yeah. Fuck. Oh, my God. What do I do? because when I tell him to leave, he doesn't leave. I think I'm rid of him and then I come home and he's broken into my house. And the last time I called the police - Yeah, exactly. For someone breaking into my house, I was the one who got sent to prison. What do I do? I'm still on trial.

1:11:15And if word got out that I was shacking up with a criminal - Oh my God, yeah. It would be over. Yeah, you would vindicate everyone. So I'm trapped. and my stepdad has to come and save me again. And I'm like, I can't trust anyone and I can't even trust myself. Ugh, Amanda. That's so unfair. Also, I want you to take my number because I have a hero complex and I would love to show up at any point and tell any man that they have to get the fuck out of your house. I love that. I will take that number. Please, please, please. This is going to be a perfect trauma match. Sorry, I don't know. Are you dating?

1:11:54Are you married? She's married. Okay, so work down. Yeah, I'll show you my baby pics. I'll look for the swimsuit ones. Chris Robinson. Chris Robinson, author. She reviewed his book. Then she went and saw. It's a really good meet cute. I love meet cute. I wasn't on Tinder, obviously. Yeah. That makes me feel good that you have someone. Yeah, he was not a true crime person. He got two master's degrees in poetry and was totally oblivious. Good. And then went out of his way to not Google me when he became my friend and only started sort of grappling with the entire ordeal when we started dating nine months later.

1:12:32And he started having people Photoshop knives into pictures of him on Facebook. And he was like, oh, like he knew there was a thing in his approach to meeting me and falling in love with me. That wasn't the thing that mediated our human to human interaction. Yeah. And in fact, that was what was such a great relief about it for you. It was a huge gift. Because he was hardly interested in that part of you. Exactly. And as soon as I heard you say that, I was like, she's going to hate me because I'm going to go right after all this stuff. That's why I preface it by saying, like, I got to go through the thing.

1:13:05Well, this is an interview. I mean, this is not an interrogation, but it is an interview. You have no rights. No rights. Rob's a paralegal. He's not a full attorney yet. Okay, so you're home and what comes first? Your mother, and God bless her, she kind of forces you to go to this exoneree conference. Yes. My mom is noticing that I'm struggling. Also because, again, I'm still on trial and I'm convicted again. I would be just as fascinated to talk to your mother because actually I weirdly would rather go through this myself than have to watch my child go through this. Thankfully, she's in therapy and has a great therapist who has been very supportive.

1:13:46and I think she has really worked through a lot. But you're right. The second I gave birth to my daughter, my mom's in the room and my daughter's screaming because she's just been given birth to. She's in a very loud, big space now. Yes, but also a painful experience that she just went through. She's in pain and they put her on my chest and I can't take her pain away from her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My first words ever as a parent were, I'm sorry because I couldn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I look over at my mom, and my mom was in the exact same position for years. Oh, my God. I mean. The level of powerlessness you both were experiencing, and I'm sure your father and your stepfather, is so monumental.

1:14:31And having to be strong. What's on your shoulders. Oh, yeah. I'm here to protect you for your whole life. That's my commitment to you. And I can't. I'm overwhelmed by this big machine, too. So Sharon Horgan plays my mom. She's one of my favorite actors from Bad Sisters, which she also wrote, right? Yes. Yes. Super, super talented. Amazing. This is a really cool role for her because so many people associate her with being funny. This is a very tense role. But also, can I just say that Grace Van Patten is freaking amazing. Do you guys know Grace Van Patten? So I just started Tell Me Lies. Very sexy show.

1:15:04Yeah. Extremely sexy show. I just recently met her via that. And then I saw she was in this. I was like, oh my God, exciting. Yeah. No, I can't wait for you to see her in this because she is phenomenal. Oh, that's awesome. Like she had to do so much to do this role. And she's got to also as an actor learn Italian because you don't speak Italian very well at the beginning. But by the end of the trial, you give your closing statement in Italian. Yeah. Thank you for appreciating that nuance. Because, again, one of the things about the show is that miscommunication that's happening. and she not only has to become fluent in Italian in order to portray this role, she has to portray quasi-fluency.

1:15:45She has to portray a progression of fluency over time. Okay, so mom, though, encourages you to go to this, I guess it's the Innocent Conference? The Innocence Network Conference. There's an Innocence Project, which was the first ever project based in New York, and now there are projects that are separate entities all throughout the United States, now around the world. There wasn't at the time, but now there's an Italy Innocence Project. So there are all these disparate entities that all have to do their own fundraising and they have their own cases, but they all are a part of something called the Innocence Network.

1:16:23So this network is what allows for everyone to stay connected and communicating and sharing research. and once a year they host a conference where all of these people from all over the world, but primarily here in the United States, come together in one space to, again, have panel discussions where they say, oh, this is how we communicated with the prosecutor in the case, or this is a cold case unit. Here's how you talk to them. All of the minute detail of like, what's involved, how to exonerate someone, what's the latest research on shaken baby syndrome, All of that kind of stuff. Yes. Handwriting analysis.

1:16:58All these debunked things. Exactly. Recently, my prosecutor sent me a handwriting analysis thing and I was like, why are you doing that? Anyway, so, but there's also all of these exonerated people, people who have spent time in prison for something they didn't do. The vast majority of them are men. And black men. Very disproportionately. Also Latino men disproportionately. Non-white folks disproportionately. Yeah. I mean, and to say that there are white folks there, but like disproportionately. Fortunately, we're talking about people of color. And so it's men who have spent way longer in prison than I have because the appeals process here in the United States is so incredibly difficult.

1:17:36In Italy, it's actually easier to appeal. I spent four years in prison. I've met people who have spent 40. That's the scenario I'm suddenly in that I had no idea existed. And I'm connecting with people who immediately reassure me that I don't have to explain anything to them. That there is not this barrier between me and them. Me who feels like I'm doomed to have to explain myself to other people for the rest of my life. They're like, no, no, no, girl. We get it. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. Well, someone there says to you, thank God you were wrongly incarcerated. Yeah. All these men who go kind of unrecognized in the world, like no one gives a crap.

1:18:17A lot of people don't believe that wrongful convictions are really a thing. A lot of people to this day look at people who are exonerated by DNA and they go, they're really guilty. There just must be some other explanation for why the DNA of this other rapist was in this crime. They probably committed together, even though they don't know each other. Like there are people who like find reasons to still think these people who are demonstrably innocent are actually guilty. And so there's this resistance to believing that wrongful convictions are a thing. Again, because if they're a thing. Two things.

1:18:46It could be me. And that means there's still killers out there. If those people are innocent, where's the killer? Yep. That's too scary. So it must be that they did it. And then they're like, and then you came along, the little white girl who's college educated and had everything going for her. You get wrongly convicted. And suddenly people are like, oh, it really could happen. And a lot of them are also like, here we are, these big, tough guys in prison who are struggling. And then we see you, this little white girl in prison. And we think, if she can get through this, I better be able to get through this.

1:19:27So I connect with them on this deep human level. And I come away feeling like I'm not alone. And this is way bigger than me. And I start to feel purposeful again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then that purposefulness leads me to make a very unorthodox choice, which is to go and talk to my prosecutor face-to-face and figure it out. I love this. I saw an interview where you said, I want to be incredibly clear. I was not in search of forgiveness. I was in search of comprehension, understanding how this happened. I must know how this person, who I'll grant isn't an evil person, how this happened between us.

1:20:11Yeah. If I assume that this person had no intention to throw an innocent girl in jail, well, something went wrong. Yeah. And I want to understand what that is. And so I reach out to him. And initially, he's like, why are you trying to talk to me? In the history of histories, no defendant has ever attempted to contact their prosecutor after the fact. I don't even know if this is legal. Eventually, he agreed to communicate with me. But then the pandemic happens. And so I can't actually see him face to face. But I've already established contact. Is this via writing email or talking on the phone? So at first it was writing a letter and it was delivered by my friend from prison, the priest, who also happened to know my prosecutor very well.

1:20:57He plays a big role in the show. We had a very beautiful relationship because here I am, the godless heathen. And here he is, my best friend, the prison, the Catholic priest. And we bond over music and we bond over philosophy. And he's just a good person. He was in prison? Yes. So he's the priest who is assigned to the prison. I didn't know if he was in prison. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. He was the spiritual advisor of the prison. Which at first you're like, I'm good. Yeah, yeah. At first I'm like, you can't help me. Are you going to tell me that God put me in prison for a reason? Nuh-uh. You know, like not having that.

1:21:32But he's the kind of guy who cries at the end of Kung Fu Panda. Like that's my kind of guy. We connected on this human level and he delivered this first letter to my prosecutor. And it took a while of convincing, but eventually he responded and we started a email correspondence. In reality, that took place over years while the pandemic was going on. but then ultimately it led to as soon as it was safe to travel, I booked a ticket to Italy. I told my family about this and they were all in opposition, understandably. I told all my exoneree friends about this and they were like, what are you doing?

1:22:10They understood more because they were like, I know that you just want to hear from the person who hurt you, that they acknowledge that they hurt you and that they're sorry that they hurt you. All of them were like, but that's not what's going to happen. You are going there to be further traumatized. It's not worth it. And they were right in a big way. If I went to Italy to get something from my prosecutor, I was doomed to fail. It would take a Herculean effort for my prosecutor to come out of his own perspective and really, truly recognize the harm that he had caused. Because in his mind, justifiably so, he's like, I was just doing my job and I believed in what I was doing.

1:22:58This is, again, this weird parallel between you guys, which is he too has to question how great his grasp is on reality. How much can he trust himself? So it's just so crazy that the victim and the, you know, could be confronting similar things. Yeah. I don't want to like give it away because it's really beautifully depicted in the show, but how my prosecutor is on the one hand digging in his heels and being defensive and on the other hand is evolving in his understanding merely by the fact that the person he thought he was prosecuting would not have done what I just did. Yeah. And so he's like, how do I make sense of this?

1:23:45And he finds himself in conflict with himself for maybe the first time in his life. Yeah. That's not an easy process. One thing that KJ talks about when she was like, how do I describe what is happening in this show and what happened in real life? And she talks about it. She calls it the anatomy of bias. These were people who convinced themselves of the story at the same time that they were trying to convince other people. It was a feedback loop. It's called confirmation bias. There are lots of things that decision to say the break-in was staged. That is an anchoring bias. That means that my anchor for interpreting reality is this, which I'm recognizing as a fact, even though it's an opinion.

1:24:32If your foundation is faulty, then of course your whole thing is a house of cards, even if it is logically pieced together. Right, exactly. So it's more complicated than a bad guy who doesn't care if there's an innocent person in prison. He's not a bad guy who just doesn't care if there's an innocent person in prison. He's a guy who is acting logically and believes that he is acting with integrity. So how could it be all so true that he was so, so wrong? Right, exactly. It's so complicated. It's so complicated. I think that's a really important message that I want to get across is we are all human.

1:25:08Sometimes we encounter each other and there's a perfect fucking storm. Yes. We should recognize that. It didn't just happen in Perugia, Italy in 2007. That happens all the time, every day. And what kind of perfect storms are we participating in or inciting or witnessing? And how do we interrupt those? How do we interrupt that? What do we do? to stop the boulder from rolling down the hill. I love that you went and saw him. I love that you have found some empathy for him and some level of compassion and then accidentally some forgiveness probably. Yeah, well, so here's the thing. When you see someone who's struggling, you feel for them.

1:25:52I was not watching this person struggling in front of me and thinking, ha ha ha. Yeah, no, that was not. You know why? Because you're not a murderer. Right. You know, like I was like, oh my God. And I told you before, there was a one moment in my life where I felt unbeatable and unstoppable. It was in that moment where I was like, I thought he had all this power over me. I have all this power over him. And what am I going to do with it? And I knew in that moment that the way that I was holding him was with care. I was not holding this person who was struggling and using his weakness to crush him.

1:26:28That's not who I am. I saw him and I was like, here's this fragile bird. How do I hold him gently? Yeah. Something you weren't really given the grace of. It's in the rearview mirror to some degree. I don't want to be insensitive, but do you think if you're not already there, do you see somehow that you will go, oh, wow, I was kind of perfectly built for this situation. And I'm going to make a lot out of this situation. And maybe it happened to the right person. I mean, can you have that perspective? I definitely have had the thought, thank God this didn't happen to any of my sisters. Thank God it happened to me.

1:27:05Weirdly, I discovered, you're right, and this is where it gets so interesting, is when my priest friend would say something like, God has a plan and everything is for the best, I'd always be like, fuck that. Yeah, exactly. But then he told me, if you pray to God for strength, God doesn't give you strength. He gives you the opportunity to be strong. And I was like, oh my God. I don't know anything about anything. There's so much that we don't know, but I do know that there have been moments in my life where I have felt completely in tune with the universe and I would not have come to that place had I not had everything happen to me before it.

1:27:43And that leaves me feeling eerie. That leaves me feeling spiritual. I do a lot of meditating now, which is my form of spirituality. It's being super present in the present moment and just noticing the feelings, noticing the thoughts, observing, and then realizing that whatever the fuck is going on, you're okay. And I wouldn't have come to that place if that weren't for all of the things that came before it. I have two last curiosities. One is, what about nightmares? Yes, I've had nightmares and I do get triggered by things. And to this day, I feel really uncomfortable in crowds. I'm less concerned about that.

1:28:21The thing that really bothers me that I still haven't figured out. And I'd be curious to know if you guys have any insight into this whatsoever, because I really don't know how to carry it, is the fact that because I'm known for my roommate's death, in a weird way, I feel like I'm carrying not just my own legacy with me, but also hers. And I always feel like for better or for worse, I'm being compared to her. You're linked to her. I'm linked to her. And that's not necessarily a bad thing because she was a really nice person and she was really sweet to me. and we had great times together, but I have to go through years of trauma just to reach my memories of her.

1:29:01To this day, I know that some people will watch the show and go, you're not the real victim. Your roommate was. This is the, you said it, I wrote it down, the single victim narrative or what was the fallacy? Yeah, the single victim fallacy. Yeah, your mom's a victim, your parents are victims, you're a victim. You know, Raphael is a victim. So many people are victims in this story and you want to honor all of that and you want to grieve all of that. And at the same time, I'm only one person. I have my own story. You have enough to carry on your own. And I have a lot, that's a lot to carry, but I also get it.

1:29:34Can I ask you, would you be having this tension in the absence of people actually sending you messages saying, you know who couldn't get married today? Meredith. Right. You know who can't have a baby today, which happened to her a bunch of times. Paparazzi photographed her wedding when she tried to keep secret and people are like, you know, who can't have a wedding marriage. So how much of it is driven by your own sense of that? And how much do you think is driven externally? You know, that's a really good question. Because I can give you the tip that being famous for 30 years has taught me or 23 years, whatever, is simply I regularly have to go, wait, hold on a second.

1:30:12Does anyone in my real life that knows me think that? If anyone that knows me has that opinion, I got some self-reflection to do. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But if I can't find a single person who knows me, who has this opinion, there's no work for me to do. Fair. No one that I know thinks that. However, what I maybe am grappling with, and it's like aggravated by the fact that stuff like that gets thrown at me, is survivor's guilt. Yeah, right. Like there's no reason why two young girls go to study abroad and only one of them should get to go home. What good thing can you get out of that except be grateful for life because it is so precious and can be taken away from you in an instant?

1:30:53That's sort of the big takeaway I get. But I still have that sort of survivor's guilt feeling that comes from within, but is also deeply imposed from without. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. Let's say you weren't accused. You didn't go to jail, whatever. You just experienced this. Your roommate was killed in your study abroad. Forget the rest. I'm probably gonna get in trouble for saying this, but this is what would happen if this happened to me. I'd go home. I'd be so sad that that happened. For the rest of my life, I'd be like, this horrible thing happened. But I'm not responsible for carrying the story of it, her life, her legacy, anything.

1:31:36I just get to have my feeling about it and move on. You don't. You have so much, publicly and personally, to hold in regards to her that no one else in this situation would with regular trauma. And so that is fair for you to be like, I wish I could put this down. And I don't know how to tell you how to do that. Maybe Monica could help. The closest I've come to it was how we portrayed her in this show, because one of the things that was really important to me was, again, to make her a real person again, not this stereotype about an uptight British girl that was in the public imagination for so long and grieve her.

1:32:15Like part of art and the beauty of art is that it's a way to process your emotions. I found one of the big takeaways for me from working on this project and co-writing the final episode with KJ and all of that was this is my opportunity to grieve through art. Mm-hmm. Okay. The one thing that I'm wondering how it's impacted your life is, so here's what's really bizarre about fame in my own experience. The amazing part about it is it confirms you exist. That is true. Either this is the matrix made just for me or yes. Yes. What is fascinating about being famous is we all have this kind of weird fear that we don't exist or we're not important or we're not real or we're not impacting, you know, that we're pointless.

1:33:01The mere fact of many strangers knowing you confirms you exist. It confirms that a version of you exists in the public imagination. Yeah. Yes. But here's my own experience with it. Here's what's so complicated about fame, which is I wanted it. I got it. It was uncomfortable for me. And then mostly I wanted to go back to being able to just watch other people at restaurants. And then also I'm walking to the airport one day in Detroit and not one person looks at me, which I'm used to. And then I have this weird panic of like, oh, maybe I don't exist anymore. And I just have to be honest, what a weird relationship I have with this.

1:33:39It's like, I wanted it. I don't know that I enjoyed it. And then I'm also now afraid it's going to go away because I'll not exist anymore. But you wanted it. That's a huge difference. Everyone wants to know that they exist. Sure. That's why I'm specifically... Fam validation is very different. Is wanting a lot of people to know you exist, wanting strangers to know you exist. That's fame. That's different. You were thrust into fame. You didn't choose it. You didn't, as far as I know, want it. Maybe you did. I don't know. Maybe you wanted to be an actor. That wasn't the plan. Right. You weren't pursuing any kind of performing arts.

1:34:10No, I was not pursuing any. So you didn't go through the ride of like, oh, I want to be validated and appreciated and known by strangers. And then, oh, actually, it's not that fun to be appreciated by strangers. It wasn't that. But I will push back. Certainly there are people that came out to become Kim Kardashian. Sure. Yeah, yeah. So I think there's this huge spectrum of, I do think I wanted fame to know I existed. I think it's okay to be sympathetic to the desire of fame, because I think what really is under the desire for fame is the desire of, like, I do exist. I think that's right, but I don't think it applies.

1:34:44I guess this is my point. Well, no, no, but I think he's making an interesting connection here now, which is like, well, now that I am now here now. You fully exist. How do I hold that? Yes. Can you have that same bizarre relationship I have where it's somehow also scary to be completely anonymous again, even though that's what you would want? Multi-part answer to your question. So one, the very quick part is I did get the worst of the fame thing out of the way first. Yeah. You didn't get any free jeans like I did or a great restaurant, a table at a restaurant. So like now, weirdly, that I've gone through the most horrible parts of being famous, I'm now weirdly experiencing the nice parts about it.

1:35:27Right. Someone will text me and say, hey, I didn't commit suicide today because I heard you on a podcast. Right. That's an amazing feeling. This is human connection. Like this is the thing that was taken from me that I never thought that I would get back. And now I'm getting it back in all these new and surprising ways. And so that's good. Yeah. You and Monica must have so much shared experience in that way. Surprisingly, if you were to, you should bring her on. Oh, you have. We learned of this months ago when we had her on that she was producing this. And I said, you're the perfect person to approach her.

1:36:01No doubt she was the perfect. Because I knew how many people out there are forging a path in precisely the way that I would need to be shown that there actually is even a path. Like she invented having to reclaim your own story and how to do it. And she's the one who's been putting herself out there as the Kinnebig so that it makes it easier for someone like me. Yeah. She is a success story of coming back and reclaiming. Yeah. Owning her shit and taking the worst and making the most of it. She's so incredible. And she's been through some horrible shit. Yes. Yes. I find her to be so inspiring. And the thing that she did for me was made me feel safe to do this.

1:36:43And then, of course, like I got to meet all of the people that I would work with. You know, I worked with Warren Littlefield on this. I love him. He was producing something I wrote and he's one of my favorite people ever. He's so smart. Hundreds of people have worked on the show and have been striving so hard to get it right after so long was just one of the most validating things. There's this acknowledgement that I have a valid perspective and amazing. But then on top of that, here I am executive producing and I'm learning the ropes of the industry of storytelling. And I love it. From some champs.

1:37:16The best of the best. And they're taking care of me and guiding me and not making me feel pushed aside at all, but inviting me in. I feel like I'm very lucky. Yes, yes. And I know that that's not the typical way that you arrive at that place because you guys are in this industry. you know, like it's fighting and scraping and not getting the credit you deserve until you are in a position to demand the credit you deserve. And this is a tough industry. I would say you didn't get the credit you deserve until you got the credit you deserved as well. So there's similarities. Fair enough. I loved it.

1:37:47It's a great, great show for people who don't know, like Warren also produces Fargo and Handmaid's Tale. I mean, he's a beast. And everyone that worked on this, the actors are incredible. The Italian actors also. Francesco Acquaroli, who plays my prosecutor. He's a legend, but also Giuseppe Di Domenico, who plays Raffaele. I got chills watching him play Raffaele. I never seen someone capture his spirit. It's weird how good he is. I felt very bad for him in this whole. As you should. Yes. Exactly. Yes. So, okay. Everyone watch The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox on Hulu and read Waiting to be Heard if you love it because you'll get all the more details.

1:38:32And then your newest book, Free My Search for Meaning. Yes. I'm very grateful I got to meet you. I saw that doc years ago and I very much wanted to meet you and just say, my God, you've been through a lot and I admire you. Oh, thanks. It's really nice to meet you both. You're a strong motherfucker. Also, a lot of my friends who love your show wanted me to just say thank you for doing your show. You guys are leaving a really lasting impact on people. So thank you for doing that. Yeah. We're so, so, so privileged to have you. So everybody check out the show, read the book. I hope we get to talk to you again.

1:39:04I would love to. Let's do it. I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong. I am a little, I don't know what to do. Should I present him with his hat and matching scarf on Or he also has a crown Oh Yeah Uh oh Are those mittens Oh my goodness

1:39:34What do you like I like both I think he's gonna have to do an outfit change Okay I'll start him in the crown Okay Hi Hi We have something very cute happening Our most special boy got a new outfit from an arm cherry. Yeah. Who knits baby clothes on Etsy. How cute are these? If you had really put your baby in these little overalls. I know. Oh, my God. Yeah. Someone sent Groot. For the listener, someone made Groot an incredible outfit, knit these beautiful green overalls. And they're shorts overalls. Short alls. Whatever we call those. I'll call it short alls. Short alls. Some really cute shoes. Yeah, he's got nice shoes, a nice scarf.

1:40:22Yeah. A beautiful crown. But that's not all that came, Monica. He also should get chilly, which it is a little chilly in here. I like it cold. Let me take his crown off for one second. He has a beautiful matching hat, winter hat. Winter hat. And cute little gloves that they put. You know how they put these in kids' sleeves? They come out the end of their sleeves in the wintertime. Do you know that? No, I didn't know that. You know, they attach them so the kids don't lose, little kids, because they're idiots. Right, sure. And they'll lose one of their gloves. You put this attaching string and they hang out the bottom of your coat and then you put them on when you need it.

1:40:57Sure. But I just, as happy as he is, I just want to say thanks about this gesture because Delta was so excited. I mean, it's the sweetest thing. Oh, Groot's shoe fell off. Oh, okay. I want to tell people that in, obviously, Groot was in Nashville. And when I went to Nashville, we went to dinner for Kristen's birthday and Groot came. And Groot, Delta packed Groot's dinner and brought it to the restaurant. And it was in like, you know, a little lunchbox. And I, as the aunt, got to hold Groot for a lot of the dinner. Yeah. And I was sort of in charge of feeding Groot his dinner. Yeah. Which had like cantaloupe and some, you know, like crunchies.

1:41:50She's a great mom. There's always going to be a protein, a vegetable, and a fruit. Yeah, there's healthy foods in there. And I did have to look at Kristen and say like. Are you supposed to make? Yeah, are you supposed to eat some of this? So it looks like, you know. Yeah. You know how the rest of the sentence is. I know. I don't even want to say it out loud. I know me either. Me either, yeah, but I know what you're struggling with because I've been in this situation a few times. Yeah, and then I didn't get a clear answer and I didn't know what to do. Yeah, I don't know that anyone knows really, but I have found that she's not making it this.

1:42:21Oh, God, I don't even want to say this. I know, but we have to. I know, but it's fine if it's just there. Okay, yeah. Because what I do. He eats it. You might not notice how much has gone away, but he just eats it on his own time. Okay, yeah. I put some to his mouth and I assume he ate what he wanted to eat of what I put to his mouth. And I don't want to trigger any food-scarce people around the world. You know, I do think if you're in a food-scarce region, you find out how much food that dogs in America eat and that, like, people have it delivered and it's freshly cooked and all that, that maybe it's a little, you know.

1:42:58It's a little upset. And I just know this could potentially fall into a similar category. It's not very much food. He doesn't have a huge appetite. Yeah. Well, trees, you know, it's only the half that's a boy that needs a little bit of food. A little sustenance. Yeah. So then I put the food away in my purse when dinner time was over. Oh, you did? Yeah. Okay. With the lid on. Yeah, with the lid on. Oh, you didn't dump. I gotta get this out of here. And I just dumped it in my purse. No, I put the lid on. I put it in my purse. And this is very me. like four days later I realize I have not taken that food out and it's fresh food yeah so it wasn't it didn't smell good immediate follow-up question would have been so if I was in that situation I'm like oh fuck I left that in there it's sealed but then I would go like I bet it smells so gross and then I'd have to smell it to see if I was right oh you could smell it you could You didn't smell it through the seal.

1:43:57Like, well, no. Was it proper Tupperware or something? It was Tupperware. But when I opened it to throw it away eventually. It hit you. I was like, yeah, this stinks and this is. Were you already home or this was still back in Nashville? No, it was. Okay, you didn't go through. The day I left. Security. No. That'd be great if they pulled it out in the TSA line and they open it and they were like, A, what a weird meal you've packed for yourself. Yeah. Also, you have. It's rotten. You have an eating disorder. That's not a food for a human. And you like it rotten. And then you'd have to go, I'm so sorry.

1:44:27This is for my friend Groot. And then they would have been like, okay. And now she's nuts on top of everything. Especially if I started explaining. It's my friend Groot. He's half tree and half boy. So it doesn't look like it's enough food for a human boy, but he's not a human boy. He's half human and half tree. You understand? Yes, ma 'am. I think you might be more comfortable on a train or a greyhound to go to your destination. Well, I think, no, we'd be much more comfortable if you were via train or. Okay, well, fuck you because I spent$3 ,000 on this plane. Oh, you're rich. Yeah, I am. No wonder you have a half boy, half tree.

1:45:01No wonder your brain is disintegrated. No wonder you're insane. You're not grounded to the earth. Anyway, Grit looks so happy in his hat. Yeah. And he's happy with his granddad. He started school. Oh. He said, you know, because everyone's gone back to school. Right. As of this week. He's in school. Okay. And I said, what grade? And she said, they don't really do it that way. That way there. Okay. And where's there? And I sat at his school. In the bedroom? No, he goes away during the day to school. And the school. Where does he cover it? I don't know. Okay. What I'm telling you is he goes to the school and there's no grades.

1:45:42And it is for folks with different. Oh, learning needs. There we go. Yeah. Or physical needs, I guess. He's what he's got. So, yeah, he's in a great school, though, that he loves that doesn't have grades. Great. Yeah. Because every time his age comes up, I get in a little bit of a circle because he ages differently and stuff. Of course. So it's hard for me to nail down exactly how old my grandson is. Yeah. Which I guess is none of my business. It's none of your business. Take it for what it is. Age is just a number. Yeah. Do you think that he is playing hooky right now, Ben? Why'd you just hit?

1:46:16That went wrong. Let's try it again. Don't try it again Fudge I will get this third You get three strikes Okay sure I gotta make myself A little more physical Yeah There we go Oh great Thank goodness Really good job For the listener There was a Two attempts Throwing up of a mint To catch in the mouth To wow Monica Yeah and the first one Resulted in a head hit Reverse head butt Not a reverse back A reverse back A reverse head butt I would never reverse back With my grandson on my lap No that would be really inappropriate now so is Groot like playing hooky today no he's out of school it's he gets out at this time okay enough about school um it's like where the food i know it like look people have these questions i know and they're best not asked put it on the shelf is that what the saying is that is not how you feel about life you are not someone who says don't ask questions unless it's for my kids and then i do everything yeah i don't love that there's a lot of hypocrisy there I kind of want to wear his crown, but I know it'll stretch.

1:47:18But my head is small. It is. It might fit you. Maybe I could just do it like that. Oh, that looks great. Thanks. That looks really good. It brings out the brown in your eyes. The blue crown does. It is almost my birthday. Speaking of age is just a number and crowns. You might need a crown. Yeah, I might need a crown, birthday crown. I'm getting excited for my birthday. Birthdays are tricky because I really get anxious about planning something. But you do like a party. I like the day feeling fun. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't necessarily have to be a party, but I just want my day to be, I want it to be a good day.

1:48:02And sometimes that's lower key than others, but. You're planning a pool party at a hotel. Yeah, the Four Seasons, I can say that. Oh, you can. It will be done by then. My party will be over. Molly did it for her birthday some years ago, and it was such a fun time. They got a cabana, and they just had people come by, and people hung out at the pool. Order some snacks. Played games, ordered snacks. So that's what we're going to do. Just a reference a previous episode. This is where Shaq used to come and eat. That's right. That a Maniscalco would wait on him and get that great tip. Yep, exactly. And you would eat that unconventional breakfast.

1:48:38Fruit plate. Fruit plate. Unexpected. Maybe we should get one in his honor for my birthday. Are you coming? Yes. I have. Well, unfortunately, we also have the back to school barbecue that day. Yes. So I we will have to come on the beginning of it. Yeah. Yeah. I wish it were not the case that these two things overlap. That's OK. It's no press. This is part of the anxiety. Yeah. I don't. This is what prevents me from having a party. This little element right here. Yes. I don't like the idea of people feeling pressure, but I also do want people there. Yes. And I want it to be low key, but I also want it to be festive.

1:49:16And high key. I want it to be low key, but very stressful. Do you want to tell people about your shirt today?

1:49:28I was just looking, I was like, it is a really pretty shirt. Thanks. And then I remembered it was backwards earlier today. so I'm we had a very hot guest yeah shockingly so did you know he was that hot I have thought he's attractive when I see him in projects but in person there's really a rhythm and an energy and a playfulness and a fun vibe I really liked him a lot yeah yeah anywho I didn't dress for him I just dressed because I like to wear cute clothes and I got this new shirt I ordered it from Moda Operandi. And it's blue. It's really cute. It's knit. Not unlike Groot's clothes, it's knit.

1:50:10Right. And it has black buttons going down what I thought was the front. I thought it was a button-up sweater. Me too. And I did think, so I put it on and I was like, oh my gosh, I don't remember it having buttons. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. And then I put it on and the neck was really, really high. And I thought, huh, that's interesting. But like, that's a look. Yeah. Like, that's cool. Yeah. So I wore it. I had a meeting in the morning. I was out and about. I'm going to launch a crazy theory right now. Are you about to start your period? I don't think so. Oh, you're pregnant? I don't think so.

1:50:49Okay. It's not that time. I don't think it's that time because, I mean, I can tell you. You always know. I do know. Get your period calendar out. I write it down. I theorize this because Kristen took Delta to lunch yesterday after her first day of school. And she wore her pants backwards. And she's about to start her period. She did say that. Sorry. I don't know for a lot of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's okay. People know she has a period. They should assume she has one. She has a period. Yeah. She's not menopausal yet. No. Okay. Despite how much you guys want to be menopausal, she's not. Okay.

1:51:22I started on Wednesday, the 30th of July. So one, two. Huh. huh okay i just ruin your weekend oh my god if it if i get on my birthday i'll be pissed okay hold on one two no i'll i'll i'll start it on around the 27th but starting tomorrow ish my pms so maybe my pms has started and maybe that had to do i just think that'd be interesting you guys usually have your period the same time yeah and if you both are putting your clothes on backwards I would say that's correlation. Of course not causation, but we have something to investigate. Okay. Yeah. I just thought it was a cool shirt that I, I don't know.

1:52:07And I was out and about and I wore it and it did kind of scratch my neck. But I was like, I guess this is the way it's supposed to be. Right. Then we're walk, me and you are walking out to the garage. We're like 10 feet away and I feel something on my neck that feels weird. It's the tag. And I was like, the tag is in front. That's a dumb place for the tag. Why is the tag here? I feel bad because what I did chalk all this up to is that this brand I think is Japanese. Yeah. So I was like, oh, the Japanese are doing a high neck. The Japanese are putting all these buttons. Okay. Now listen, I'm going to, I hate to bring this out of the vault and you shouldn't keep things in the vault.

1:52:45It's not healthy for a friendship. But I will say. You have a vault. When I said that if your dad did something very peculiar, I might assume this is, this might be an Indian thing. I understand. Okay, so I just am relieved that you do it too. Listen, I understand. I have a lot of clothing that is Japanese. I love brands, clothing brands that are Japanese. There's a few I really love. Orly, some other ones. Lady White Co. Honda, Toyota. Yes, actually. Lady White Co. All these, whatever. And the clothes generally are very minimal. They fit really well. They're beautifully constructed. Now, I'm going to say something very dangerous.

1:53:26Okay. I'm a little shocked that the clothes from Japan are fitting you perfectly. You're shocked? Given that you have an ample bosom. Yeah. Okay. So that's interesting because. Like, I'd be shocked if the Japanese clothes fit me perfectly because I'm much taller than the mean average in Japan. Yeah. I don't know. It's working out, though. They fit perfect. And I went into a store in New York and it was a Japanese clothing store. I tried on these pants and the man who worked there was like, you have to buy those pants. Like you are the person that's supposed to wear these clothes. Right. Because I'm petite and what?

1:54:05Yes. Well, that's a lot of it makes a lot of sense. The pants make sense. And the shoulders and the length of the waist. All the different measurements. But you're just like surprised they're not, it's not super tight. I'm shocked that you don't run into issues. Yeah. Yeah. Well. Okay. So far, so good. So far, so good. Anywho. I don't know. I'm looking directly at your eyes for the listener. But Rob told me that you were. Yeah, he's always looking. He's superb. He's not even here. Rob, are you here? I'm here. Oh. I wonder if the hot guest looked. Probably. I hope so. I want people to admire them.

1:54:40Yeah, great. And he's, I don't want to give up. This would give too much away, but he's been married for 34 years. Yeah. That's about as much as he gets. I'm giving a gift. Yeah, yeah. I'm very generous. Anywho, I do have great boobs. I'm just going to say that. Well, you have artwork that says it. Yeah. My wife commissioned some for you. So anywho, I did chalk it up to like, oh, this is a really cool piece of clothing because it's Japanese and they make amazing clothes. But they put their tags right in the front. Yeah, I was like, oh, maybe. And then as soon as it was all falling into place and I was like, oh, my God, it's on backwards.

1:55:21So I had to quickly change it. OK, I have a couple of updates. Quick housekeeping. Great. So my post about Luke Combs. Oh, yeah. I said within the post he's going to join the ranks of Nicholas Holt, the young men I tried to have relationships that won't text me back. Yeah. I had forgotten. I guess they even brought up in the fact check last time, though, that I was waiting for him to text me and he never did. Do you remember that? Yeah. I guess that was in there because I saw it in the comments. I don't remember saying that. I think you did. Yeah. Point is, that was my post. And I went to DMs and there was a DM from him.

1:55:54He's like, dude. And it was a screen grab. He's like, I sent you this and I never heard anything back. So he sent me right away when he left. He said, oh, this is so fun. You know, totally, you know, in opening the door to me buddies. And it was in green, the bubble. I'm like, yeah, I never got that. It's in green. Was it a text or a DM? In the DM on Instagram, he sent a screen grab of the text he had sent me. Oh, weird. But it was in green. Yeah. So it never got to me. So he tried. So to clear the thing, he tried. So then we had a lovely flurry of text yesterday. Okay. Well, can he post? Well, I don't know.

1:56:31I don't know. I would like that. You know, that's helpful. This is a business. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. if you dare.

1:57:12So I've been thinking a lot about the biz find myself pretty at peace with things. Like I don't think I'm very jealous. I'm happy. Like I am very happy with my life and my day to day and everything. So I don't have a lot of jealousy because I'm privileged not to have to. I'm really lucky. Yeah. But I've had a few moments of jealousy lately. I think I know where this is going. That have been very interesting. I got a lot of DMs and messages, of course, last week or two weeks ago, whenever, when Taylor was going on Travis's podcast, New Heights. Yes, yes. Huge podcast. Yes. Duh. Duh, she is going on that show.

1:57:59She 100 % should go on that show. That's her boyfriend's podcast. Of course. And that's lovely. Like, it's all good and reasonable. Yeah. And yet when I heard it, I did get so. Jealous. Jealous is the honest word. Right. Because really I was like, no, like she needs to come on this show. This show is going to like, you know, we're going to have a real conversation with her, talk about things that are deep, but that maybe she doesn't always have the opportunity to talk about and show some sides of her that people don't see. What I'm also, when I'm doing all this, I am aware that that's, she doesn't want that.

1:58:49Exactly. And why should she? She's not incentivized to, she doesn't want to. No, she. And everyone is delighted with it. Oh, yeah. Also, who knows what anyone wants to hear? because they're super pumped to just hear whatever those two they're I think they're most excited to just see how they interact exactly which is so fun yeah and which I wasn't like no don't go on his I was like can you also please come on ours those are going to be very different conversations that's right and but then I was like well yeah no of course not like she's gonna go on his show and they're gonna like when we have Kristen on like we're not gonna put her in a weird position.

1:59:29She's the safest she'll be here. We've talked about a lot of stuff that she's never going to talk about somewhere else. Because she's safe. Yeah, yeah. Like, she knows if she says, like, guys, we're not doing that. Yeah. We'll just be like, yeah, obviously. Like, it's just, it's obviously a much different situation when it's us two and her. Yes. Her best friend and her husband. Yes. And so, obviously, for Taylor, same situation. She's with her brother-in-law and her, you know, boyfriend. And she's going to be able to dictate that conversation, which I – great. So I got upset, but then I was like, I mean, duh.

2:00:07Like, she's going to go on that show. That's fun. And, like, she gets to – great. Then I had a – there was a moment where I thought she was going on somebody else's show. Right. Two. Yes, also. And I got, like, enraged. Right. You had a little moment. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm not proud of the thoughts I had about it. Sure. Not about Taylor, but about the other podcast that I thought she was going on. And I was like, how could Tree let her do that? That is so crazy. This is a mistake. Yeah, this is a mistake. Why does this person get this credit? Like a lot was happening. Right. And then I had to walk myself back.

2:00:55What's going on? You don't normally feel this way. You calmed down. Your heart rate dropped. Yeah. Your frontal lobe came online. Yeah. Then you did some self-reflection and exploration. I did. And it was interesting, though, because—and I talked about this on an interview recently. I said—and I think this is true—that we, me and you here, have a very specific thing going on, which is that there's a man and a woman anchoring the whole thing. Yeah. That is not true for, in my opinion, any of the podcasts in our realm. Yeah. I think. I think that's right. I think we're the only ones, yeah. I mean, somebody's going to comment that I'm wrong and that's probably great.

2:01:40We could be wrong. I mean, if we're wrong, we're not meaning to be. No, no, I don't mean to be. We have shows where there's a female host and male hosts and combinations of those. I mean, multiple female hosts, multiple male hosts, whatever. But I do think we're significantly different in that it's both of us here offering two types of opinions and thoughts and things that I'm proud of. I'm proud that we have that. Yeah, me too. And so, you know, in my head, I'm like, I will, again, this is like jealousy. I, it bums me out when we don't get that recognition. When it's like, this is another male podcast or a male hosted podcast, which, you know, whatever.

2:02:27Oh, you're feeling like we're falling in between? No, I like that we're in between. Yeah, but I'm just, when you're, are you feeling like when a potential guest is evaluating that they're going to pick either they want to go the male demo or they want to go the female demo? I do. And that we're a tweener. Yeah, like I think there's like some smart PR moves to go into one of those two directions. So people are going on other shows. Every time it happens, it is a little like, eee, like I don't, that sucks. Yeah, yeah. But I guess I'm also saying I was sort of sitting with this, like, there's these categories of male podcasters and female podcasters.

2:03:05And I think I, I'm not even going to talk about the show, fall through the cracks there. When they're pitting, like, the female podcasters against the male podcasters, we're in that category. Which one? The male podcasters. Oh, I don't think so. Well, I'm going to I don't want to, like, be rude. But yes, like on Alex's documentary, when she's talking about all these male podcasts, you're mentioned. But let's be ultra clear. I'm mentioned as someone who has an epic deal at that time. I'm not. We're never mentioned in the manosphere. We're never mentioned in, like, male podcasts. We're not that.

2:03:45It doesn't. But I'm not mentioned there. Yeah. That wouldn't have made the point they were making. Like, again, that's taking it quite personally. Of course I'm going to take, that's my whole point. Like, of course I'm going to take it personally. Sure. When in order for this narrative to be, there's some female podcasters that are huge and saying, look how big they are in comparison to these male podcasts. I'm dropped from the narrative and that doesn't feel good. Right. So, you know, anyway, I'm just, I was balancing a lot of those feelings. and I guess ultimately I was kind of like at the end of the day this is the job I want this is the podcast I want to be on yeah these are the types of conversations I want to have so here we are like this is what it is it's just I mean I know it might say maybe people don't like us talking about this, but I, if I was listening, I'd want to hear the way people were thinking about the insanely tricky landscape of podcasting.

2:04:56Like we've been doing this for seven years. A lot's changed. Seven and a half, like almost eight years. That's a long time. And a lot has changed and we've. And ours has grown too. That's the, that's the amazing thing. That's also a huge gift to be grateful for is like ours has just grown it's not it's not smaller than it was five years ago when we had access yeah it's just that some shows have gotten enormous yeah and yeah i just think it's an interesting time for everyone i want to give one compliment yeah okay okay to you so in talking about this like a podcast that's hosted with a man and a woman that was a decision on your part.

2:05:34Uh-huh. Like, for maybe some of the other ones that have that, like, it was two probably equally established people coming together. Yeah. That was not the show. You were established, and you decided that - I like you. I could add something potentially. And you're a great, great counterpart to - Yes. Yes, debate. That's a feminist move. That's an actually feminist action. Action. Like I'm bringing in a woman to be here and and contribute a voice. There's all these other people who present themselves as so progressive and feminist and they aren't their actions don't don't match it. Yeah, sure. So, I mean, it's the truth.

2:06:24And like, yeah. So I'm, I think because you have tattoos and talk about your motorcycles and fucking and this and that, like you can be put in a category. But it's really like all the actions you've made are the most progressive ones. Right now we're a 50-50 team, aren't we? Yeah, we got you, Emma, Rob, and I. And I do like when we go out that it's equal in that. Yeah. I like that. Okay, one last thing before we do facts. Right. As the Armcherries are so good at doing, they solved my, you remember my issue about 5A, 6A, 7A? Yes. Well, first of all, everyone was on your side. So just let's start there.

2:07:04Thank you. No one could understand my frustration that it felt very extraneous and didn't signify anything. To you. You didn't like that. Yeah. If they're all A, why are we including A? Well, there are B and C schools. Oh, okay. So it is like batteries in the way my friends said. It's more that like C is some increment, right? It's some multiple. So it's like a 5C is way less than a 1A. Right. And then a 5B is less than a 1A, but more than, you know what I'm saying? More than a 7C. Okay. So there are A, B, and C, which also coordinates with the 1, 2, 3, 4. Got it. Okay. So I feel much better. Now that I know there's B and C category.

2:07:45So happy for you. And thanks for everyone for correcting me. Did anyone respond that you are supposed to write it with the letters in the amount of numbers? Someone said that's not true. Yeah. Actually. That you don't do that. You do not write five A's. Okay. You write the number five and then the letter A. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Okay. One person. So we both took it on the chin. Well, one person said. Okay. But I think they were probably right. Well, I'm not sure. It sounds like they were right. I'm really not sure. In my head, there's like flags hanging in the gym that had five A's. Oh, really?

2:08:15I think. Oh, wow. Anyway. You have to go back to your high school. Now they would have to add more because it's 7A now. Yeah. Well, and that's an argument for doing it that way because you can always add A's without scrapping the original. But if you go from number five to letter A to six, you need a whole new thing. Yeah, that's right. Okay. All right. Let's do some facts. I'm going to steal a bite of something while you read the first fact. Oh, let's just wait. Why don't you just eat your food? No. Yeah. I didn't take a bite. You took so many. No. Says who? Eat your food. I don't have any food.

2:08:53Oh, my God. I'm wrongly accused. Why are you trying to Amanda Knox me? Don't do that when you are actually guilty. That's not fair. No, but she had a sense of humor about her situation. But she wasn't guilty. Okay. I finished. No, you didn't. I did. I'm all done. Eat your food. As you ask your question, I'm going to swallow really quick. It's going to be a magic trick. You love magic. No, listen to me. Listen to me. Okay. I don't want to pull this card, but I have to edit it, and I'm going to see you chewing, and I'm going to have to say, don't be on Dax while he's chewing, and it's a thing, and I don't want to do it.

2:09:29So can you just eat it? What kind of bar is it? It looks yummy. Blueberry. It's an almond butter protein bowl. You want more? You can have more. I don't want more, Monica. I had too much. I'm so full. I feel sick, and I might puke. Oh, my God. Puked. Okay, facts for Amanda. Well, I just want to say one thing. Say. We have another Amanda coming up. This is Amanda Week. It's Amanda Week. Other Amanda has some stories about these punk rockers who used to come into her coffee shop, and they were called the Pukes. Oh, really? Yeah, that was their, like, gang name. Oh, my God. They're the Pukes. Okay, now some facts.

2:10:12Obviously, not a lot of facts because very personal story. And the facts are known. They're known. For the most part. They were excruciatingly uncovered. Yes. Unearthed over eight years. What a resilient woman. I wonder if I would just die. I have no idea how I would handle a situation like that. Yeah. It's almost insulting to like. Assume anything. Yeah, yeah. I can't assume anything. To her or anyone else that's been through something like this. My prediction is like I just have a terrible temperament for that situation. I mean more like you're in prison and you didn't do it. And then, yeah, then you're reentered and everyone thinks you're a monster.

2:10:58People still think you did it even though you've been exonerated. Like fucked up. Fucked up. Yeah. It's funny. I was just watching something recently and there was a joke about her. Oh, there was. What was the joke? Is that the joke? It was like she came up and it was like, did she kill someone? Ah, okay. And I was like, yeah, I didn't like it. Yeah. I don't like all the jokes I see on TV. Yeah. Yeah. I was watching it. I watched a pilot of a show yesterday with Delta, half of it. But yeah, and there was like three or four kind of over the top making fun of real life people, actors and stuff. And I was like, yeah, I never love it.

2:11:46I never love it. I don't like it either. I also finished Beast Games. That's we'll save that for next fact check. OK. OK. Halloween in Italy. In Italy, Halloween is a blend of American style celebrations and traditional Italian holidays focused on the dead. Halloween is not a traditional Italian holiday, but it has become increasingly popular, especially among younger generations with influences from the U.S. Children may trick-or-treat at bars and restaurants, often in the town center, rather than going door-to-door, as in the U.S., and tend to dress up in scarier costumes like zombies and witches, while adults often don't participate in costume wearing.

2:12:25Of course, people. Who wouldn't want to participate in Halloween? If you see it in a movie and you're in Italy, like, hell yeah, go door-to-door and get candy, free candy. I mean, it's a very easily sold holiday to somebody. Yeah, definitely. Like, hey, do you like candy? That's the first question. So, ciao, ciao bello. I'm not doing that. Oh, you got to say. Can I say it in English? You say ciao. Hi. Oh. I guess you shall be the Italian. Yeah, exactly. Eh, pronto. Hi, do you like candy? I love a candy. Have you heard of candy? Do you have a candy? Um, yes. Yeah. But you have to come to my door and you have to say trick or treat and you have to wear a costume and I'll give it to you.

2:13:04Oh, I love it. See how easy that pitch was? Yeah, it was really easy. It was really, really easy. Okay. Okay. The interview rights versus interrogation rights. So police interviews. I mean, she went through this, but still. Purpose, to gather information and investigate potential criminal activity. Nature, typically non-accusatory and conversational. Location, can occur anywhere, including on the street or at the individual's homes. Miranda rights. Generally, Miranda rights are not read during a non-custodial interview. Consequences, statements made during an interview even without Miranda warnings can be used as evidence in court if the individual is not in custody.

2:13:45That, like, how is that legal? I don't get it. That's the whole point of Miranda rights. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm stressed out. Now, look. Okay, I'm gonna, I have to make a good faith argument. Okay. Which is detectives in a murder trial have to talk to like 50 people, right? They got to go talk to coworkers and all these different people. And to have a lawyer present at every one of those obviously would be a big logistical challenge. If every single person, the coworker, hey, did you guys ever get lunch together? That whole thing. If they've got to have lawyers present for all these kind of mundane.

2:14:27Now, what I think is clearly happens is they abuse this. But in concept, I understand they got to talk to a ton of people and it should be really surface. And then if five of those people seem like further questioning is warranted, bring them in, bring them in, read them their rights. You shouldn't be able to even in that we're trying to figure out who to bring in, quote, interview. You shouldn't be able to use any of that in court. I agree. I agree. Now, police interrogations purpose to obtain a confession or incriminating statement from a suspect. Nature, more formal and can involve accusatory questioning, pressure, and psychological manipulation.

2:15:08Why'd you kill her? Exactly. Location often occurs in a police station or other controlled environment. Miranda writes, if a person is in custody, detained, and subject to questioning, police are required to read Miranda warnings before any interrogation begins. Consequences, if Miranda writes, are not read during a custodial interrogation, any statements made by the suspect may be inadmissible in court. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So it is a workaround. It is a workaround they're trying to do. It's abused. Yeah. Okay, why handwriting analysis is unreliable. It lacks scientific validation for assessing personality traits or predicting job performance.

2:15:45Despite its historical use, research consistently shows that graphologists are no more accurate than chance when making such assessments, and their methods are often susceptible to the Barnum effect, where vague statements are interpreted as uniquely relevant. The Barnum effect, a psychological phenomenon where individuals believe that vague and general personality descriptions apply specifically to them, even though those descriptions could apply to a wide range of people. This is my complaint against astrology. Oh, sure. Which is like there's only 12 types. And so somehow everyone feels, yeah.

2:16:20That it's specifically them. Yeah, totally. Okay, yeah. It's essentially the tendency to accept generalized statements as uniquely descriptive of oneself. Cool. Well, that's it. That's everything. For the facts. And you are eating again. No, I'm not. You're going to continue to lie to my face. Well, I think it's so obvious that I did that. It's cute and funny. but I'm wrong in my assessment of how you would take it. I thought you would go, look at this boy. He's eating his cookies again, but you didn't. You're like, you're going to keep doing this? You're a bad person. You're a bad father. You killed her.

2:16:56I told you why I didn't want you to eat it and then you ate it. But I was quick and no one saw a thing. Okay, love you, bye. Love you. Thank you.

2:17:40Completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.