Bobbi Brown (make-up artist and entrepreneur)

23:02You're going to look dead. You want to look young, you do pink on the cheeks. So I learned a lot of things. But we're already getting to what is true in so many industries, which is being creative is really one sliver of the pot. Being talented is one sliver. It's the yellow pages in the fucking Village Voice ad. And it's the going to the union going, how do I get in? Sadly for artistic people, that's about 70 % of it. Oh, no, it is. And by the way, even when you made it, even after I had a Vogue cover, I still had to work on it. You have to work on everything all the time. And when people say it's so hard, I'm like, yeah, what isn't hard in life?

23:37Everything's hard. Exactly. What would you say were the milestones that bring you to 1990 when you decide to make your first few products? Well, I decided to make the first products because I accidentally met a chemist who made his own lipstick. And I said, I always wanted to make a lipstick. He said, tell me about it. I said, I wanted it to not smell bad. I wanted it to be creamy and not dry, not greasy. And I wanted it to be the color of my lips. So really quick, that's your novel proprietary take on makeup. Had you already discovered that was your brand and your point of view? When did that happen?

24:15When I first started doing that kind of makeup, I had people saying, you're never going to work if you do that. People want to have the white faces and the contouring and the overlining and the blue and the yellow. This is the 80s reminder. People have wild slashes of pink on their face and spattered paint. I did fashion shows. I loved all that fun, creative, but I made it look beautiful. I didn't find it attractive. I don't think I was that talented in that kind of makeup. So I started doing things like, how is this for brilliant? Finding a foundation that was the color of your skin. It wasn't popular.

24:48You know. You don't know, but your mother and your grandmother know. I know. I was like, I need to thank Bobby for this. Bobbi Brown is the first makeup brand that I had that had my color for my face. To me, it's common sense. The way to choose a foundation is you try it on the side of your face. If it disappears, it's the right color. But lots of brands don't even have all the options. You had such a wide range. And a lot of brands have the options, but they're bad options. Because who's making these decisions? Right, exactly. Not a makeup artist. By 1990, are you kind of a famous makeup artist?

25:22I am in the fashion industry. By 1990, I had a cover of Vogue and I was written about in the magazines. You know, Bobby Brown says the trend for the season. But I also was a new mom. My oldest son was born in 1990. The publicity angle is enormous in this, right? When do you figure out that aspect? Being in that magazine is huge. How do I get that magazine? I knew the first time I did Glamour magazine and it said on the side, really small hair and makeup by Bobby Brown. I was like, wow. And then I got phone calls. And then the more I got that and the more people liked either my work or mostly I think they liked me.

25:58So this is huge. You're a makeup artist and especially if you're a woman, you're going to spend three and a half hours with sometimes on a day. Going to the Emmys, Kristen will be with someone in her face for three and a half hours. Probably the same person she usually uses because it's about relationships. They're great, but their personality is wonderful. Oh, 100%. Huge part of it. It's your posse. I have my posse. Again, this Howard Rourke notion that you'll just be brilliant and everyone will just fucking deal with whatever because you're brilliant. That is not how the world works in any way.

26:26And you've got to figure it out. And sometimes it works. And guess what? Sometimes it doesn't work. And then you have to say, OK, that didn't work. What can I do about it now? Back then, was it you had clients and they brought you on for the covers or was the magazine hiring you? It was usually the stylist, the photographer. OK, got it. And then when I was a fashion makeup artist, celebrities were the no. Unless you were Elizabeth Taylor on the cover of Bazaar, it wasn't all about the celebrities. Yeah, it was models. So it was really, it was the supermodels. It was the Cindy's, Naomi, Linda, Christy.

26:56Yeah, who were some of the gals you were working with? Cindy Crawford, Linda Vagilista, Christy Turlington. Oh, she's my favorite. I watched that Models doc, which I knew nothing about any of those folks. And I was like, oh, that's the one I like. You've never met her? No. We watched that thing. And then I was at the sphere and I looked over. I was like, oh my God, honey, she's right there. I was thrilled. She is the nicest. I see her in a lot of parties in the Hamptons. She hasn't done one thing to her face. I was going to say, talk about natural. She is stunning and wonderful and still happily married.

27:24She's an anomaly. She really is. Okay, so you want this lipstick through your savviness and, again, your work ethic and figuring things out. You do end up getting this in Bergdorf's. Well, he made a lipstick for me, and it was the color of my lips, and I loved it, and I said, oh, my God, I bet I could sell this. He says, I'll make it. I'll give it to you. We'll charge$15. You take$7.50. I take 750. I said, great. And I said, people are going to love this. Then I realized people have different color lips. This is not going to look good on someone with darker lips or paler lips. So my ninja brain is like, okay, what colors?

27:57And honestly, I was going to the park with my kid. They had nanny friends. I looked at women from all over the world. And I kind of started studying the lips and realizing, you know, some women of color had pink lips. Some had dark purple lips. Indian women have this kind of really cool heather blue lips. and by the way in the industry most of the magazines and makeup artists would say this is how you correct if your lips are too dark I don't believe in correcting I believe in enhancing I don't draw pencils outside of my lips well you don't have to shut up there's like me talking about my height or something but you know what we all have gifts in life and when you start realizing your superpower that I think is the secret Yeah, I had to go like, yeah, I don't have the nose I want.

28:45If my mom had said, let's fix it, I might have said yes. Oh, I know what I mean. Thank God you're coming to me for this. But I heard you and Bradley Cooper talking about you guys didn't like your faces when you were young. I'm like, what the hell? You guys are so cute. Isn't it comforting that Bradley says that? I'm like, all right, no one's immune to. But everybody, being a makeup artist, the stuff you hear. From supermodels. And over my years, I did Mike Tyson, Matthew McConaughey, Barack Obama, Jill Biden. you get to hear how everyone feels about themselves. And no one's like, no one is like, I'm fabulous.

29:16Right. Yeah. It's like, I nailed it. Stay tuned for more armchair expert. If you dare.

29:32One famous supermodel, never forget. And I can't believe I'm telling you this story. She lifted up her shirt and she said, could you just tell me, are they the same size? of course not none of them are i said yes okay i lied i'm sorry what was i gonna say

29:50so how many different colors 10 we launched with 10 and i started just selling them to people that would want to buy them friends and neighbors and then one day i was having lunch with a friend of mine who happened to be the beauty editor glamour magazine you know we're talking about how are the kids. She had just had a baby. I had a baby. And she's like, what else is going on? I said, well, I'm doing this little project. We didn't call it side hustles back then. And she said, tell me about it. She goes, oh my God, can I write about it? I'm like, why would you want to write about it? Now I know that's called PR.

30:20And we wrote about it and got bombarded with orders because it was so different. And these were like, someone would send you mail, right? To request it. There was a phone number. I think it was the chemist or my home phone. I don't even remember. My husband, Stephen, who was in law school at the time, would literally mail them out to the post office. And eventually we brought my sister-in-law in to do the books. And I was still a working makeup artist because with Stephen in law school, we needed to pay the mortgage. Then you get into Bergdorf's. We got into Bergdorf's, not because I pitched them, because I was at a party in the city.

30:53And I said to someone, I thought she was a fancy lady, thanks for inviting me. And she said, oh, I'm a big fan. I said, oh, you know who I am. I said, well, what do you do? She said, I'm the cosmetics buyer at Bergdorf Goodman. I said, oh, I'm working on this lipstick. She goes, why don't we take it? Let's give it a run. Yeah. And the expectation was that you would move hopefully 100 a month. Yeah. And you immediately started moving 100 a day. Yes. In the beginning. And then while things were growing, we joined with this other couple business partners. Who were they? I just read another couple.

31:22Yeah. Another couple. They were friends. Yeah. They were friends. You put it in quotes so I guess I know where the relationship went. I don't go deep into it in the book, but it was a great relationship. We did really well. It was really tough. Yeah. But I learned so much. And my husband was so great because I'd be laying in bed at night, literally in tears. And he would say, first of all, we don't talk about things at night when he's watching Seinfeld. That was our night. We'll talk about it in the morning. And he said, but let them win the battle. We're going to win the war. I had no idea what he was talking about, but he just would like calm down.

31:55He's the steady rocket revolter. Literally, he's the guy you want us to be a dial for anything you need at any time. Did you marry your dad? Did you give us his number? I did not marry my dad. You did not marry your dad. No, I married someone that is as smart as my dad or even smarter. Okay, but different temperament altogether. Very different temperament. You're your dad. I'm kind of my dad. I'm kind of my dad, yeah. It's best not to marry yourself. Yeah. So it grows incredibly fast. A lot of people think, oh, if I have a great product and people want it, that's that. Growing is nearly impossible, right?

32:26It's tough. Because you're constantly trying to anticipate how much can we now bet on this? Because we got to scale up. A lot of it is guesses. A lot of it now is data. It's either data or data. I never know what it is. If you're a scientist, it's data. And if you're a normal person, it's data. Right, exactly. But basically, I go with my gut. My son, who is the CEO of the company, is like, no, mom, it's all data. So I'm like, okay, fine. So when you put that stuff together, it kind of works. So you're nimble, you're flexible, you're pivoting a lot, and you're young. The first time what really put me on the map and put Bobby Brown Cosmetics on the map, we sold Bobby Brown Cosmetics to Estee Lauder after four and a half years.

33:02So 95, you sell it. Yes, so 95, we sell it. For$75 million. That's kind of the answer, not really. Only because there was a 25-year buyout. Can you tell us details of that for people who don't know? I think it's really, really relevant. I'm so lucky I have my husband because I don't really understand it, and he would probably correct me on 10 different things. But whatever number was decided, we'll sell the company. It was also plus whatever percentage on some sales. They wanted you to continue to run the brand. Right. And I stayed for 22 years. Right. So that was my question. So you get 75, but then you also have some participation, I imagine.

33:38And then you have a salary. Some participation. Oh, yes. Meaning we would get percentage of sales at the end of the year. I say the 75 million, not to embarrass you or tell people your business. but I think it's really relevant to think that you started this company and four and a half years later, $75 million in 1995 is really like selling for$200 million now,$250. It's an enormous success. When I left the company, it was a billion-dollar brand. Now, my question, and this is why I want the details of the contract, was a 25-year non-compete standard? That feels so long. I don't know. I've heard different.

34:10Look, when I left Bobby Brown Cosmetics, I had four and a half years left, which on someone who's very impatient, and I was 59 years old, I was just like, oh my God. No, it must have been absolutely brutal. Forever. Just forever. Like microwave minutes. When I left, I was like, what am I going to do? Because I'm not someone that sits idly by and knits or needle points or play Kaluki or whatever other people do. So they acquired it in 95. By 2012, Bobby Brown is responsible for 10 % of all total sales for Estee Lauder. So it's enormously successful. They're clearly letting you run it without any issue, and it's thriving.

34:48That's not exactly. There were issues. You know, it was doing really well, and they were letting me run it without anything for a long time. And that new CEO and everything really became very homogenous. Well, antithetical to the original brand, like they wanted a contour because that's popular right now, and you're anti-contour. It just didn't make sense for me to change what the brand was built on. I know there were these companies like the Kardashians. I can't compete with someone that I'm not. I'd rather just be the best version of myself. And that's the business too. And I thought I knew the customer.

35:22I thought I knew what women really want. My customer always wanted to look like themselves, but better. Now, is it possible you were wrong? Possible, but I wasn't. Let's just put it this way. I don't think so. Well, your second venture proves that. But it would be worth examining. Okay, at the time you had started that trend and that trend took off. Is it possible the trend was moving away from that? Or perhaps 10 % of all the market would want to look that way, but 90 % would want to. Sometimes things go in cycles. And if I was one of these people that followed all those cycles, we would have no identity and we wouldn't be true to anything.

35:58Sometimes you have to kind of sit back and wait for things to bounce back. Like natural beauty to me is not a trend. It's what's supposed to be. And I've always embraced lines in people's faces and freckles and different color skin and gaps in the teeth. Well, that's interestingly one of the many things that started happening, which is you found this incredible model with a gap in her teeth. You did a whole campaign only to find out later they had airbrushed her teeth to fix it. Without telling me or asking me, I was pissed. What were some of the things that started accruing? Oh, my God. I used to interview every single person that joined the brand from the person that greets people when they walked in, every single person.

36:38And little by little, people were popping up, I'm the head of international, I'm the head of this. And I was like, excuse me? And I remember having a conniption fit. And the president at the time said they didn't consult me either because there's nothing I could do about it. And so little by little, it started just taking away from what the essence of the brand is. And there were moments where they were coming in and you thought they were looking for your sign off or approval and you would disagree and they would say it's already being released. Why are you bothering me? Yeah, this is like kind of just pageantry.

37:08Again, my naivete was I got this. I could fix this. What about the internal confidence in that period? Because I even have waves. Over the last two years, the pushback to wokeness gave rise to this incredibly successful round of podcasters and comedians. And you're just watching this huge swell and you go like, fuck, it's scary. It can create doubt. Things change. And I think the important thing is don't rush into anything. Just kind of sit back and observe and let it be and say, OK, what is right for me? What is right for it? And if you try something different and it doesn't work, go back. But was there any moment where you were like, man, do I like I'm fighting?

37:50No, you know, I'm sure if people would be interviewed, Bobby was really difficult to work with. Yes. We're going to get to that. By the way, if a color shifted in the market, I was difficult. Go back and fix it. Yeah. I cared about these stupid things. And, you know, I was told, get out of the details. No, you can't. That's the whole point. It's the whole point. Yeah. And, you know, it's a very different company now. Does it stress you out that it still has your name on it? No, this is a terrible thing to admit, but it would probably stress me out if it was flying and doing phenomenally well without me.

38:21That's what would kill me. That's very honest. I mean, it is. It's honest. Yeah. Like they thought they didn't need me anymore. So in 2016, this growing situation comes to a head. It's also three years of this. It's getting worse and worse and worse. Your overall well-being is suffering. You also have two kids who've just left for college. So now I want to go back a little bit and talk about how you decided at that time running the brand in New York City that you guys would go to New Jersey and live there and raise your family there. I think that's a pretty unique decision for someone. We moved to Montclair, New Jersey the day we got back from our honeymoon.

38:57Oh, you did? We did. My husband and I decided we just didn't want to raise New York City kids and we wanted to be more normal. I would come home from these events and go in the Lincoln Tunnel. I always had a driver and I would take my high shoes off. My hair would go in a scrunchie. I'd put my clogs on and my fanny pack. Now they're all stylish. Yeah, exactly. Look, I'm wearing my Gucci clogs today. I felt really myself when I went home in my life in Montclair, New Jersey. Would it be fair to say that it helped you compartmentalize the stress of the daytime things? Like I'm going into a completely different culture in the world.

39:31A hundred percent. I would get in that Lincoln tunnel and I would breathe. I would probably call my mother or my father, just get that out of the way and then call Steven and say, what are we doing for dinner? Like I didn't plan. What do the kids have tonight? Where are their soccer things? That could be the danger of living in New York because you leave the office. Well, let's walk together. Now we're having drinks together. And then just the work never, ever ends. And there was no after work drinks because I had a different life, like my second job. And by the way, anyone that knows me, my kids are just the most important thing in my life.

40:02You wrote a thing in there that I can already sense coming and I try to remind myself, which is the shit in the hallway drove you nuts. The shoes at the door drove you nuts. All the clutter drove you nuts. And now they're gone and it's dead clean. You know, like, I fucking hate this. I hate my job. I think about this so often. It's like Coach Paterno, who had this glorious career. They have a statue in front of Penn of him. Then the Sandusky things happen. They take it down. And I'm like, it's never too late for this incredible life to just turn to shit. And did it feel like, I thought I had a fairytale life, and now I feel like it's turned to shit.

40:35No, I didn't think it turned to shit. It was really a tough period when I left the brand. You lost both your identities. I lost it, but after two days of drinking tequila with my neighbors, seriously, I just started calling people and going out and finding things to do. And then I had a bunch of fun, cool gigs to do. But you couldn't talk about it, right? No, no, until the announcement. I'll never forget, someone called my husband and said, what are we going to tell everyone? Could we just tell everyone that Bobby's sick? And my husband said, fuck no. He said, why don't we just tell them the truth?

41:10But I still wasn't at liberty until the announcement came out. Well, this situation ultimately came to a head and there was a moment where they offered you the same salary or more to go away and show up when needed for kind of PR or when they were wooing another company they wanted to buy. What they said is they want you to be the head of the brand, but get out of the day-to-day. And to me, that's firing. So they will say they didn't fire me and they would still say it today, but I was fired. I mean, the day-to-day is why I did what I did. Yeah, it's your brand. It was my baby and I thought it was my brand.

41:45So I just said no. Now, in retrospect, do you think it could have grown into what it grew to without the infrastructure of Estee Lauder? Or do you think if you had not sold, you could have grown it into that same thing without them? Well, I think right now Jones Road is bigger than the current Bobby Brown. I don't know that for sure, but I've been told that by some people. We've got like 40 people running around. It's a totally different day and age. Back then, I would go into Neiman Marcus and have 40 to 100 women waiting for me. Now we launch something. We've got the Internet and we've got thousands and thousands.

42:24There's Sephora's now and department stores are not really the place. Jones Road is direct to consumer. 90 % of our sales, 10 % we have stores. I've been driving all over with my husband looking for a location in L.A. So I'll have to get your take later. Yeah. I think a lot of people, myself included, that would have been a very hard no. Just knowing I could collect. You're like, I'm already fucked. It's already not my brand. Minimally, I guess I should take some money. My very good friend, Mickey Drexler, said, take the money, start a new brand. I said no, because it wasn't just here's the money, but it's basically they said to my husband, she's got to be there if the team needs a question, but she can't tell them if she doesn't like something.

43:05I'm like, what the fuck? Also, they wanted you to sign a non-disparagy. They wanted to sign a non-disparagence, which honestly, I'm trying not to say bad things except the truth. Right. You know, but get me a bottle of tequila and ask me the questions off camera. We'll leave her some dirt. I say this from the bottom of my heart. I am so grateful for everything that I learned from Estee Lauder. And most of the years were amazing. The last couple of years were not. And I know that's what everyone wants to talk about. But for the years, Leonard Lauder, who just passed away, he was my mentor. He was like a father to me.

43:37I can call him and say anything to him and ask him any question. He never judged me for not being a smart business graduate. He thought I was brilliant. And he would say, Bobby, this is what we got to do. How can we do this? And we would come up with a solution. Well, that is not what happened to the organization at the end. Yeah, it sounds like from 95 to 2012, it was pretty great. It was. 17 years at a job where you love is a big win. Yeah. And so I left in 17, I think. Was it 16 or 17? You probably know more than me. You left in 16. In 16, yeah. Because you launch in 2020. Right, right. Okay, so you do a lot of weird, interesting things in that gap.

44:14You just keep moving is what you do, which I think is the advisable path. And you become a style editor at Yahoo. I became the beauty editor of Yahoo, which was really cool. But I did that when I was still at the brand. Okay. Yeah, right. You had to get permission. And I had to get permission. So I did that. And then when I left the brand, the first project was develop a hotel with my husband called The George in Montclair. 31 unique rooms. Oh, wow. 31 unique rooms. It's in an old mansion. It is. 1901 it was built or something. Wow. You're amazing. Thank you. I'm trying to wow you. You have wowed me.

44:49You had me at hello. The hug you gave me, I will bring that with me. Okay, good. Okay, so you dabbled in some stuff. This 25-year non-compete, you must have, I'm assuming, been pretty far down the road. knowing that was expiring. How do you decide you're going to give it another go? So I left, didn't know what I was going to do. The first thing that was offered to me was by my friend that owned Lord & Taylor at the time. And he said, why don't you do a Just Bobby shop? We got to get people in the stores. You could do anything you want. And I'm like, great. I do well with teams. I got a team together.

45:19Well, you met a gal at the Apple store. Yeah, and I hired her as my assistant. She was like an Apple genius person. She was Apple genius. I knew I needed help with my digital. And by the way, She's so smart. She sat there for two and a half hours. You know, they're usually like, can't help you, Bob. Helping me figuring out how to get my number away from the corporation and so I could own the same number. She wouldn't give up. She wouldn't give up. Bobby's like, everyone else would have given up. And she didn't know. She never heard of me. But I offered her the job and she took it. I said, I don't know what we're going to do.

45:47Oh, that's incredible. So, yeah. That's Rob back there. I did someone's podcast. I was like, who's this motherfucker? He is on it. I need this guy. I just got his number. First of all, he's from my hometown. Yeah, Chicago. Yeah. And I want to build one of these in Montclair. Oh, great. He needs your permission to freelance. Oh, he's already got it. He's already freelancing like a son of a gun. So you did the Lord and Taylor thing. It was great. And then Lord and Taylor went out of business a year later. And so then we brought it digitally online. We tried to figure stuff out. It wasn't uber successful, but it was fun.

46:16Kept me busy. I learned a lot. When did you start developing the line? Jones Road. I got hired to go to India to be the first ever keynote speaker of the Indian makeup conference. Wow. Which was amazing experience. Yeah. Cody and Pyle were just dating. So trust me, I told every single person that my son's girlfriend is Indian. You can trust me. Again, because you do, I think, represent makeup for all types of people. So I'm not surprised at all that they asked you. That was a great experience. And then I got asked to do a masterclass from Masterclass. That was pretty cool. And I started just kind of being curious.

46:54I was using all the natural makeup out there because God forbid I put a chemical. You weren't using Bobby Brown at that point. No, emotionally I couldn't use it. I just didn't want to touch it. Stopped following the Instagram. I want no part of it. I feel you. And then I didn't find what I wanted out there in the world. So I said, I wonder if I could do better. And I started calling a couple local chemists, kind of like when I started. And I'd go in there and tell them what I wanted. There's so many things I'm not good at. Like I can't fill out the paperwork that needs to be done. I can't do all that stuff.

47:25So I hire people to do what I'm not good at. I hired this girl to help me conceptualize. And now she's my COO. But she started as a jack of all trades in product development. Monica was a babysitter for us at one point. I did start out as the babysitter. This bitch is smart. What are we going to do here? But it works. And it's smart of us to figure it out. Yeah. So the balm, which is one of the most successful parts, was a mistake, which I love anything that starts as a big mistake. It was not what I asked for. When it came, I'll never forget, I opened it up and, you know, I was like, God damn it, that's not what I wanted.

48:00But I stuck my finger in anyways and I went like this with my fingers and I tapped it on. I looked in the mirror. I said, oh, my God, it's a miracle. Because you know what? It's moisture. Whenever you're tired and I have a hippie stick for you, you just take this balm, put it on, and it just makes everything look better. Because, by the way, when people don't look good, it's because they're dehydrated. And when you hydrate yourself, you look better. Our friend Eric just told us recently that he's never put lotion on his face. We're like Eric. He doesn't wash it or put lotion or do anything on his face.

48:31He looks pretty good. Imagine what he'd look like if he had been moisturizing for the last 10 years. I know. We should get him some big products. This guy. What's his name again? Rob. Rob. He looks like a baby. He's a cherub. He's 37 years old. He's got two kids. And he doesn't have any lines or any age. Genetics. Genetics. Yeah. 100%. No, Rob's the cutest guy in Los Feliz. Okay. So the non-compete expires. Yes. It's COVID. There's a lot happening in the world. A presidential election is about to happen in a week. And everyone says to me, do not launch this now. We went to big PR agencies. Everyone said, don't do it.

49:05I didn't hire any of those PR agencies. I hired my neighbor, Lynette, down the street, who now is still with me and I can't live without. She handles all of Jones Road and all of my personal stuff. Does Cody come in as the head of marketing initially? So we started coming in with growth. When he came in, our business quadrupled only because we did a call with Gary Vaynerchuk and Gary said, go on TikTok now. Yeah. So you were forced to go on TikTok. We weren't forced. You were. Oh, I was forced. Yeah. This is a really important entrepreneurial thing. When someone says, go hire a team, go hire a person.

49:39I just can't do that. I just do it instantly. Gary said, go hire a team, go hire an agency. And Cody just picked up the phone and said, go, mom. And we put it up. And that's how it started. And it blew up. And it blew up. So year one, you guys had 15 million in revenue. I think 18 first year. I was hoping to do a million. Incredible. Wow. And then year two was 150. We doubled. No? No, wait. I don't think we did 150 in year two. Oh, no, no. 2024, you're doing 150. I'm sorry. Yeah. You caught my first big mistake. Last year, we did 180, maybe. Yeah. And now we're just shy of 200. Incredible. Industry sources say, because you're not allowed to say.

50:14Why aren't you allowed to say? I don't know. It's not cool. I don't know. Whatever. It's a bad look. There's nothing cool about me. It's a bad look, I guess. To get acquired in five years is pretty miraculous. Isn't this how it works for everybody? Exactly. And then you start at the end of 2020, and here we are in 2025, and you now have something that, of course, could get acquired for an enormous amount again. How is your confidence then, when you're on TikTok? It's starting. Are you like, God, I really hope I can do this again? Well, no, no. I was never worried about that. Great. I'm like, I don't want to look like an idiot.

50:44I don't want someone to listen to this podcast and say, God, Bobby sounds like an asshole. Because sometimes I'm myself and sometimes people think it's the greatest thing. And mostly people that know me will be like, what did she say? Well, you've been submersed in beauty for 45 years now, 1980, moved to New York. I just know that when I'm here in L.A., it's everyone's occupation. Right. You can't go more than a couple of days without hearing some tip about how to look better, do something better. Well, it's all out there on the Internet. It's crazy. There's so much. Now I'm very interested in health and wellness and the hacks that you could do and all these people that are doing all these weird things like peptides.

51:26And I'm just like, bring it on. Just show me, tell me. So I don't obsess about beauty things anymore. I know I'm not getting work done on my face. I do laser, by the way. I swear by lasers because it doesn't alter my face, but titans and collagen production. Yeah, all that stuff. But in your 30s and 40s when you were surrounded by that, did that inadvertently make you incredibly self-conscious? 100%. Do you have body dysmorphia at all? Oh, I totally do. There's no question. My friends laugh at me all the time. I'm teeny, but I always think I have to lose weight. And I don't have to lose weight.

52:00But now I'm trying to build muscle. Yes, which is key. Which is really important. Yeah. When you were juggling these million things and that was on the plate, how consuming was that? Oh my God, so hard. Do you know what it's like going to the Met Gala? I know you do. But as a five foot tall Jewish girl from Chicago, who usually I'm behind the scene doing makeup. And once I did someone's makeup and then I had to go get change for the Met Ball. That was like the stupidest thing I've ever done. Do you do your own makeup for those events? I do. I have someone in my office, my head makeup artist who does it.

52:34She does some things better than me, like my brows. So I always end up taking my hands. and I don't like to look like I have a lot of makeup on. Yeah, do you feel like, oh my God, I'm like the walking face of these brands? That's a little stressful. Look, what I'm selling now is not changing the way you look. So I'm comfortable with it. And the moment in my life changed me forever. I had a party for, I think it was for Teenage Beauty years ago and you needed a celebrity to show up back then. And I asked my friend Lorraine Bracco if she'd come and she said, I'll do my best to get there. I'm coming back from LA, I'll do my best.

53:07Well, the woman shows up, She got off a plane, had not a stitch of makeup on. She walks in, the cameras went crazy. She looks so gorgeous without makeup on. I like more of a natural. I don't think many makeup artists understand how to use makeup and make it look like you're not wearing it. You could put a full foundation, concealer, blush, bronzer, and look like the most glorious part of yourself. Not see the huge line of demarcation. Yeah, and do strong eyes and sparkle and do all that. But still, there's a glow and a naturalness. You can tell when somebody really knows what they're doing and when they don't.

53:44If you had your makeup done a lot, you can tell. Oh, this looks cookie cutter versus this looks like me. But also, it's my beauty aesthetic. And there's a lot of celebrities and makeup artists that have a different aesthetic of what it should be. It's just my aesthetic. But it's been working for a long time. Now, I have many times been standing somewhere and thought, I can't believe being funny brought me here. Being funny got me kicked out of class and in the principal's office nonstop. And then I'll be standing somewhere spectacular. I'm like, I can't believe this thing brought me to this place.

54:14Do you still feel like that sometimes? Yeah. I mean, it's insane. We've interviewed Bill Gates a lot. He happens to love us. He took us to India for a week and we're sitting on his plane flying in India. And I'm like, I'm not in venture capital. I'm not a tech person. I'm a comedian. and somehow that brought me to this airplane in India. You're not known as a comedian. Initially. Okay, but that's not how people know you. Not now since this show. Well, yeah, and you're an actor. Yes. You know, an actor, and now you're, you know. God knows what it is. God knows, but it's working, whatever it is.

54:44I was just on his daughter's podcast. Oh, Phoebe. She's fantastic. I use this word normal, real. It's rare, but I appreciate all the moments. But the White House, doing makeup to be to the White House. Yeah, I was in the motorcade. Some guy turns to me and says, who are you? And I said, well, I'm a makeup artist. And I said, who are you? He said, I'm Leon Panetta. I'm like, oh, OK, the secretary of defense. And I'm like, who are you? He's like, secretary of agriculture. I'm like, can you fix our crops? Oh, my God. Yeah, you're like, how am I here right now? There was a moment where we were at this table in India, and it was.

55:19It was the minister of agriculture, minister of defense, Bill Gates. And everyone had named placards. I said, podcasters. And I was just like, this feels so stupid. And they were like brainstorming on how to like fix the world. And we're just sitting there like totally quiet. Did you not say anything? No, we couldn't contribute. We had nothing to add. Yeah. And at one point they were like going around introducing themselves. I was like, oh my God, what's going to happen when they got us? But we got skipped. Oh, thank God. I was on the U.S. Trade Commission. I had to do that too. And it was like weird.

55:51And I just looked up and I looked for Papa Sam. Papa, do you believe that I'm sitting here doing this? Right? I know. That's so special. No matter what, I don't take it lightly. Being a makeup artist has gotten me some interesting. I just had something at Paul McCartney's house because we saw a movie. My husband and I walked out and we looked at each other. We're like, love this life. Doing makeup brought me to this place. And then guess what I did? I went home and I did the laundry and I put away the dishes and I cleaned up and I do what I normally do. Went back to your regular life. I went back to my old self.

56:19Yeah. Balancing both. Okay. Now here's the tough part. So I'm watching this interview with you and it is taking place in one of your brick and mortar stores in presumably New York. And you're being interviewed, but you are so distracted with the fact that you're noticing on the wall, there's this photo that's been mounted to the wall and it's enormous. And you notice there's a tiny scratch in the photo on the neck. Okay, Aaron, Aaron, you're yelling Aaron, Aaron, I want to go, we're on film. So Aaron will know what the people are talking, talking, talking, talking. He's like, this sign should be bigger.

56:48Well, Aaron. So you have to be a perfectionist. I am. To build something in the way you did. But I'm also a micro, not a micromanager. I'm a multitasker. So I knew that once I walked off that set, I would not remember to tell Aaron. It's now or never. It's now or never. I get that. But you are a perfectionist. I believe you have to be. But I would imagine it's hard to work for a perfectionist because I would imagine you might feel like no matter what I do, she'll find something wrong with it. But by the way, the people that work really well with me, like Aaron, who literally went to high school with my youngest son.

57:22I call her my baby creative director because I think she's finally 27 is phenomenal. And I can say, Aaron, yuck, what happened to that? And she'd tell me, or Aaron, she goes, yeah, I know they wanted that, but I'm like, I don't want that. Could you make it go away? Aaron, that wrinkle under my left armpit, can you get rid of it? She's my guy. Like you could say anything to each other. You have each other's back. I'm a huge perfectionist as well. And I edit the show and I think the same thing because I'm giving notes and like, They definitely hate me because I'm giving these half second notes like that needs to come out because to me, it's everything.

57:57It makes a huge difference. I agree with it. I'm just saying, how does one manage the tension of having to work that way and knowing that? I'll give you an example. Bill Gates, he said there were many years where I came in and I leveled everyone and told them how to be. And I ultimately had to step back and go like, what is the net win? Do I leave that meeting and everyone feels defeated? and they no longer feel passionate about working. So learning to curb, even if the end goal is I want this thing to be great, recognizing that might not be the road to get to greatness. Well, first of all, having the right people on the team.

58:31You know, I've got my retail team, my creative team, my marketing team, my PR team, my PD team, the product development, which is the most important. They know me and I'm like, guys, and they're like, you're right. And I'm like, thank you guys so much for working on this. I always make sure I thank them. And by the way, they also know that there's times where I am so insanely busy that I don't have a second for anything or I haven't slept. And they're like, I know you only have a second, just please. And they've got to be passionate and I have to be passionate about them. Does the perfectionism bleed into your personal life?

59:00Because I have found this to be a real problem. And I've been like talking to my therapist about this a lot lately because I've had multiple complaints, some from Dax, some from other people that are like, I don't want to be picked at in life. Like, here is a different thing. This is my job. The conversation is like, I want you to do exactly what you do on the show. And I want you to kill me. And then when we're having dinner on vacation, that's what I kind of said. He doesn't want me to. Edit me in real life. Yes. And other people have said this to me, too. It's not just him. I don't want to be the type of person that sees everything that's wrong or is critical.

59:39But it is what I do here. And it's really hard to shut it off in life. The good thing is that we're always evolving. and the best people are the ones that want to be better versions of themselves. I've had to let go of a lot of things and I've had to learn how to tell people I don't like things in a very different way than I used to. And I've evolved. I've worked really hard, especially with my son and my daughter-in-law because I want to see the grandkids, number one. But also, we all want the same thing, but sometimes how you get there is tough. It's hard. It is. It's really hard. And relationships are hard.

1:00:12Do you know how many times Stephen will say to me, I don't work for you. right don't come and bounce orders because i'm so used to saying do this do this i need this i need this i've said that to my wife right but i'm like okay and no it is hard and also i'm anxious i want things done and i'm always worried i'm gonna forget something i take on everything because i care about everything yes and i care about my house like i walk in my house and i re-merchandise things i move books around or i make sure the bar looks good yeah i do it's my thing i do that too you just have to make everything look perfect.

1:00:43You'd feel so comfortable in Monica's apartment. Yeah, it's really nice. Everything. And there's a lot of re-merchandising. Yeah. Anytime I feel a little bit out of control, I will re-merchandise. I just look around. I'm like, okay, how can I reposition this? To adjust my internal feelings. You're going to have to send me your cell phone because I find these things on Instagram that leads me to someone's organization wishlist. And all of a sudden I'm buying organizers, individual little baggies for court. I'm like a nutcase because it does make me feel calm to open a drawer because there's chaos on the news.

1:01:16There's chaos everywhere. Mostly there's chaos up here. There is chaos up there. The mind's not a friendly place. But I'm never going to change. I'm not going to meditate. Look at me in the eye. I'm not going to meditate. Don't make me. I'm not going to. Yeah, you just have to find what works for you. You do. And not everything works. Well, Bobby, I adore you. Aw. I had so much fun sitting next to you. You really sparked the night up. There's a lot of different people there. It was very eclectic. It was. All right. Well, I hope I sit next to you again someday soon. I hope so, too. And I hope it's not one of those things.

1:01:47And I hope it's just at dinner one night. Well, I love your book. Still Bobby. Please check it out. I hope you'll come back and we'll get to talk to you again. Thank you. So fun. It was a pleasure. Thanks. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:02:09Stay tuned for the fact check. It's where the party's at.

1:02:16Hello! Hello! Oh, we haven't talked, that's how Bob Durst talked, remember? We haven't talked like him in a while. Hello! Hi, Ann, it's Bob. I'm in prison. How much is the house worth in Long Island? Oh, wow, a hundred million? Even he found love again. He was irresistible. He had lots of lovers. You loved him. I wanted to be one of his lovers. You wanted to date him. He passed, right? I think he passed. Did he die in prison? I'll never get to nurture him back to sanity. You won't. How you doing? Ah! Really great blue color. Really great. Thank you. Yes, it's a new sweater. I feel like I would look good in that for the eye reason.

1:03:09You would. It would make your eyes pop. I also bought it in purple today because I liked it so much putting it on. I was like, I want another color. Okay, sure. I bought it in purple too. Did we discuss the fact that many, many people collected the Got Milk ads? See, I knew it. So I guess it's a double-edged sword. It's good news and bad news because I was like, wow, I found the criteria for who to hire. Like I could almost start my own hiring service. I just asked the applicants one question. I guarantee you, and I'm a phenomenal coworker. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So in some sense, I'm like, well, maybe I'm not being discerning enough because it turns out a lot of people.

1:03:51But also, good news, maybe there's a lot of great folks out there to work with. Maybe you're right because it's hard to collect them. Like, you really have to be on the lookout. You have to be on the prowl. Keep your eyes wide open. I have such a vague memory. These were like they'd have a celebrity in like a normal magazine and they'd be standing. They'd hold a glass of milk. Am I thinking of the right thing? They would have a milk mustache. A milk stache. And sometimes they'd be holding it, but not always. And in different scenarios, like there's one of Jennifer Love Hewitt. She's in a kitchen and she's wearing like a flannel shirt, I think.

1:04:33And the kitchen's messy. Ah, but she's got milk. She's got milk. Well, does she? Because it's a question mark. Got milk? Oh, right, right, right. So it was just really. It was a really celebrity-driven campaign. Is that what made it so collectible? There she is. Hey. Hey, I really nailed it, didn't I? You fucking A, you did. Yeah, and the kitchen's a fucking mess. Yeah, it's a mess because she's made eggs and pancakes. But somehow she made perfect pancakes, but she has no regard for anything else. Like the way she mixed the batter, it's all over the sides. Yet she did pour in perfectly. Do you have an affinity for her because of Party of Five?

1:05:15I did like her on Party of Five, but I was a little older. Got it. And Nev was on the show. I know. Both are great. Yeah. I loved her, though. I mean, she started as kind of a kid. Yeah, she was a kid. And then I did, and in my defense, I was 18 when I was saying this. I did think, oh, she is becoming hot. Like it is weird when these kids on shows become hot. Sure. Does that happen with the boys? Like Jennifer Thomas, Jonathan Taylor Tammus, Tam O'Shanters. Let's go with classic JTT. JTT. Do you know I used him in Empire at Amy's birthday? You did? I did. Did you get caught? It took forever. I was one of the last people.

1:05:58That's a good one, right, for a Miss Lee? Because I think most people would think I wouldn't even know that. Yeah, that's right. Oh, he had one! Of course he had one. I think I had him. So it's mostly all youth? No, no, there's oldies. Oh, there's some oldies in there? Oh, yeah. Oldies with goodies. Any baddies? These are all goodies. Oh, no, there's baddies. Oh, there are. Yeah, those are the hard ones to find. Speaking of which. What? I have started the Charlie Sheen Netflix doc. How is it? Fucking awesome. Oh, great. It's so good. This is an Easter egg. This is, it's so good. I'm excited. And do you know what I didn't know?

1:06:35I mean, I knew, I was young enough to have been a, like an audience goer when he broke out with like Platoon and Wall Street. So I remember like the meteoric rise, but it's not like you knew a ton about him back then. There was no way to, there wasn't social media, blah, blah, blah. Right. I had no idea. He and Nick Cage were like inseparable best friends. Oh, wow. Did they have a falling out? I doubt it. The way he's chatting about, he's clearly loves them. to death still. Oh, wow. But that famous Letterman story that Nick Cage tells where he was on a flight to San Francisco and he got a hold of the intercom system and he said, this is your pilot speaking.

1:07:15I'm feeling unwell and I'm losing control of the aircraft. Yeah. He was with Charlie. The two of them were going on that trip and Charlie had an ounce of cocaine taped to his ankle. And when they got off the plane, the police were there. Oh, my God. How do you get there? Oh, security was different then. Well, you could still go through with the cocaine around your ankle as long as they didn't pat you down. It wouldn't set off a detector or anything. Not now, though. Yeah. I flew with cocaine post 9-11. What? Yeah. I'm sorry. I just told this story the other day. I'm sorry, but we made it. Yeah, I had brought, you know, I had gone out.

1:08:01I mean, it was during Idiocracy. I had done a table read. I knew I was going to get sober for the movie, but I had like a week before the table read and the filming starting. So it's like I went to the table read. Guess what? What? It's 9-11. I know. Ding, ding, ding. That's crazy. Don't say you didn't know. I didn't know it was 9-11 because I journaled. But you didn't know what you were doing. I didn't know it was such a ding, ding, ding. Okay, great. Okay, so it's for Idiocracy. Yeah, so I went to like down there for a table read and a fitting and it went well. like I did good in the Taylor's.

1:08:30I was feeling great. Oh, gosh. So you had to reward yourself. I went out on 6th Street. And before you know it, I've got Coke. And I meet someone. And, you know, I have a whole night. And then now it's morning time. And it's time to go to the airport. And you dutied in your bed. I didn't do any dutied. I was very clean. But I had to then go get on an airplane. And I hadn't slept. so like i gotta i gotta bring this through security with me because i'm gonna crash like i'm gonna have the most miserable flight of my life i'm starting to come down what i don't bore you with the addicts dilemma but suffice to say i took it through security and i went to a bar and i started getting kind of paranoid while i was at the bar having a jack-and-diet because obvious reasons and i'm like i'm about to start a movie what if i got arrested you know this could derail everything.

1:09:22I just did so good yesterday. Now I'm ruining it. So my solution was I went to the bathroom. I went to the handicap stall and there was a huge toilet paper dispenser with like the double rolls. And I put my hand way up there and there was like a little shelf up in there. So I put my bag, I did a bunch. And then I put my bag of Coke up in this dispenser. And then I went back to the bar and had like another Jack and diet. And after that one, I'm like, Oh, I'd like a bump. So I go back to the handicap bathroom and Monica, I put my hand I'm on like a down a thing and I'm fishing around inside this toilet paper dispenser.

1:09:54And I'm like, oh, fuck, it's not here. And then I like look and it's not fallen anywhere. And in my brain, which has now been up for, you know, day and a half, two days. It's more. I go, oh, fuck. Someone found it. Like they pulled the toilet paper. They found it. They alerted the authorities. The authorities have been waiting to see who's going to go into the handicap stall. So I sat in this handicap stall like 1 ,000 % convinced that there were cops in the bathroom waiting for me. And I was just like, what do we do? What's our game plan? We got to. Well, we don't have any honest. But they know.

1:10:36And eventually I was like, I got to face the music. And then I went. There's nobody. There's nobody there. Who knows where that went? Somebody presumably got a free bag. But also so wild that somebody would think to— Maybe it was probably someone cleaning the bathroom who was replacing the toilet paper and found it. I hope. I mean, I hope people aren't just like— Or they're like, you know, sometimes you give those things a good yank or— Right. Maybe they rattled it enough that it fell out. And then maybe the other guy was a playboy and he was like, hey, look at this free present. I mean, a lot of things have to be coming together for that.

1:11:09Because if I yanked on a toilet paper and Coke fell down. Yeah, you'd scream. Yeah. Yeah. And you'd be like, snakes! But in your mind at that time, because I already know I'm in trouble. I know I'm a bad boy. I should not be doing this. I should be being sober for this movie. I'm also supposed to be gaining a lot of weight, and I haven't now eaten in 36 hours. But that's a side note. But the notion that if a bag of Coke is found, that they will now initiate a sting operation to see who's coming back. That's how I feel. I mean, that would never happen. Don't say never. Never say never. I would assume, yeah, they would fingerprint this.

1:11:44Uh-huh. And they would see who came. Oh, my fingerprints were all. I know. Those are grubby little fingerprints. Who came through the airport, around what time. I feel like they could find you. I even think I was like, oh, my God, I got to. You know, I'm using a key. What do you mean? I don't know if you know that. Like, I'm dipping my key in the bag and doing key bumps. Why? That's how I'm getting it in my body. Well, I got to get it out of this bag and into my nasal passage. Why can't you use your finger? Like stick my finger in the, what, put my finger on my nose? That's weirder than putting it on a key.

1:12:14You can make a little pile and then you can snort it. You just acted like what I was saying was crazy. Well, if you ever tried to do coke with your finger, you'd find out that was a crazy plan. Well, that's why people have long nails. Yeah, that's why weirdos have long coke nails. But I didn't have a coke nail because I was a responsible person. Oh, yeah, you were so responsible. But then I was like, oh, I got to get all the coke off my key. Like when key probably would light up like a Christmas tree if they put whatever magic Coke wand in my mind they had. Right. So then I was like sucking on the key to get every remnant off.

1:12:49Oh, no. Oh, my God. Addicts are so dirty. We do a lot of weird. We end up doing a lot of weird stuff. Like now the idea of putting a key in your mouth, doesn't that gross you out? Absolutely. Like the amount of germs. That's like one of the worst things you can put in your mouth. Yeah. And it's just metal. Exactly. It's disgusting. But I had to get rid of the evidence. Did you think about swallowing the key? About key stirring the key. Whoa. Key stirring the key. Key stirring. Anyways, Got Milk ads. A lot of people collected them. I think a lot of the people who've collected Got Milk keys have never found themselves in the situation you have.

1:13:32They're busy. They're at the newsstand buying up all the magazines so that on the flight they can look each one very carefully, page by page. See if you found yourself. Were you making your mom take you to newsstands to further your collection? It sounds like something new, a task you would put on her plate. I don't know. She wouldn't have done. She would. No. No? She doesn't have time for that. You were like, we got to go camp out for this book. You did a lot of these little projects, right? Then I was old. Like, I would, like, go with friends. I was old enough. Okay. So, yeah, if we were at the airport or at the grocery store, yes, I probably would have asked.

1:14:11Yeah, can we buy these six magazines? Can I please buy all of these? And then I think I had some subscriptions. Like, I had probably, like, teen. Did you earn money as a kid? Yeah, I had allowance. You had an allowance? Uh-huh. Okay. Yeah. So you had a little around town K-Sheesh. Yeah. I mean, I had so many ads. so many he did yeah so many they were great the best ones were the casts they would do like a full cast did Friends Ever Got Milk? well Jen Am I think had one maybe her and Courtney and Lisa like there was like a few yeah I have it I have it stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare

1:15:06When they pitched the idea originally, do you think people were like, so we're going to coat the top of their lip with white cream? Yeah, I think they probably painted it. Was anyone like, this might look. There it is. Oh. Yes, I have that one. Yeah, that looks like they just left an orgy. No, don't you dare. That was my fear. Don't you dare dirty this up, you dirty boy. My God, everyone is so young. I know. Yeah, Rob put up a picture of Jen Ann and Lisa Kudrow. She looks 19. They were young. They were young back then. Remember, Lisa said she felt like the old lady. Yeah, look how cute she is.

1:15:45And she was so young and cute. Oh, beautiful girls. Speaking of semen. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. So I'm not going to out this brand. I've been trying some new makeup foundations. Yeah? Yeah. I'm loving all of them. Loving all the colors. Yeah. And the textures and stuff. But I'm playing with a lot of them, so I don't want people to try to figure out which one this is, okay? Right, right. Today, I put makeup on. It was in your lab. I put makeup on. I walked outside and I was like, it smells funny out here. Uh-oh. And I was like, oh, maybe it's like Bradford pear season. You know, classically, the Bradford pear smells like semen.

1:16:31Smells like a rotting corpse. Oh, semen. Slash period. Slash death. So I was like, God, are we there? Like, ugh, stinky. Hold on. What a combo of words next to each other. Like if there was a perfume called semen period, I mean, wow. I know. I wonder if there was ever a punk band named semen period or death metal. Well, Gwar could get on it. It seems like something they would like. If you're a horned pig-faced goblin. That's right. Yeah. It's probably like one of the gifts God gave humans that, you know, the person who has a period also doesn't release semen in case. So those never really have to mix.

1:17:18Oh, right, right, right. Although they could mix in the sexual experience. Sure, ideally. Okay. Now, I'm walking to the car and I'm like, yeah. And then I have this realization. Your foundation? Yes. Do you smell it? God, no. No. No. You can't smell it from there? 20 feet away, your face. I. You still smell it. Yeah. That would be a bummer for me. If I had a smell on my face, I couldn't get rid of. And I like this foundation. There's many that have sunscreens built in. Uh-huh. This is one of those. Okay. And I think it might be part of the ish. The sunscreen? Yeah. Part of what's adding to the smell.

1:18:00Oh. Isn't sunscreen odorless? No. No? I mean, they put that yummy coconut flavor in like Coppertone or. Yeah. They add that. The fun ones. It smells like vacation. Even regular like SPF generally. Sunscreen has a smell. You know it. It doesn't smell like semen. I'll say that. But I think maybe the mix of ingredients has caused a semen-like smell. Yeah. It's unfortunate. It's a bummer that semen smells the way. It's a bummer that bodies smell the way they do. They just like, it's gross. We have all these smells. Okay, great. I knew there was something we're supposed to be talking about, and I just remembered.

1:18:42Okay. So you and I were in a competition this week. Yeah, we were. We went on Hot Ones Versus. Yes, me and you did. Yes, and we ate five chicken wings. Hot Ones Versus is a spinoff of Hot Ones. It's more of a competition show, so it was me versus you. That's right. And on Hot Ones, if people haven't watched that, you get interviewed by Sean Evans. He asks you questions as you're eating hot wings, and they're getting progressively hotter. Yes. And the last one is generally brutal. Yeah. It takes people out. Yeah. Even number seven starts taking people up. Yeah. Well, this show is, it's only number 10.

1:19:21Yeah. Every wing has the hottest of the hot. It was so. It's smart. It is. Well, look, I was so, like, really, truly nervous to do this show. And you notoriously went on original Hot Ones. You did great on Hot Ones so much so that you asked for another of the last wing. You threw a whole bunch of hots. They put me in the ring of fire. I don't know if that's what it's called. If it's not, they should call it that. But it was like kind of a champion circle of people who took the heat the best. Yeah, you did great. It's one of my identity markers. Exactly. And I knew this. And so I was also like, well, fuck.

1:19:57It was like you and I playing one-on-one basketball. It's like, why is this the versus? Exactly. Yeah. So I will spoil a little bit that you ate first. Yeah, yeah, uh-huh. And you, it was like, it was really hot for you. Well, I started salivating quite a bit. Yeah, and I started to really panic. Oh, and you saw that it was affecting me. Yes, because you apparently can eat two of the last one, and you are struggling. So then I was really starting to panic. Anyway, it was really fun. You guys will have to tune in. It was super fun, and you thought you were going to fall over a lot. Yeah, I did.

1:20:31It was really funny. I didn't feel steady. No, I definitely got concerned, and I didn't vocalize it because I thought, well, that'll only compound it. But I really started thinking after you had a good amount of fire in you and you were feeling like you were going to fall over. I was like, it's a panic attack on the table. Right. And it's always on the table. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just only because of the soul cycle stuff, I know. Right. And you weren't right about a seizure. Not at all. Okay. I don't think that. I don't think that would trigger a seizure. Right or wrong, I just don't think that. Yeah.

1:21:04But once you're getting wobbly and I started thinking like, oh, man, like she has a panic attack. How do I? What would you do? How do I help her? Great question. And it's probably not saying you're imagining this. You know, it's not going to be like no one's ever died from this. You can't die. No one's ever been hurt. You know, and then I'm like, well, it's probably not going to be like it's probably got to be more like acknowledge. Yeah, you are. I don't know. I don't know how you get someone out of a panic attack. So, I mean. Put my wall in your mouth. This harkens back to when I was having a panic attack during shrooms.

1:21:40Oh, uh-huh. Would you call that a panic attack? Yeah. Okay. Yes. In its truest sense. Like, I was like, I can't breathe. Yeah. That was a kind of a different panic attack. Normally, my panic attacks, like, I feel like I'm going to pass. I start, like, kind of disassociating. But this was I couldn't breathe, which is sort of a common panic attack. Yeah. And you said, I think you said no one's ever stopped breathing from. Mushrooms. Shrooms. Yeah. Which did work or I think. I mean, I eventually was able to breathe. I think there were a bunch of baby steps. That was one of them. Yeah. So that, I guess, is a good tactic.

1:22:19Okay. I'll stick with it. On me anyway. So what's funny is it just so happened to fall on the same day. I was taking Nate, Eric, and Charlie to the Dodgers game. Yes, that night. And we go primarily because my agency has great seats in what is called the dugout club. Yeah. And I am not going to act like I am into baseball at all. I don't know a thing about it. I barely, you know, I like, it's a great place to go have a great chat with the boys and scream a bit. It's so fun. But I don't know who's leading or if the team's good. I don't know anything. Yeah. I go because there is an all-you-can-eat bar in the dugout club.

1:23:02And it is premium. They had a pot roast, Monica. Oh, wow. I love a pot roast. I had it at Dollywood and then I just had it here. Yeah. I want more pot roasts in my life. Okay. My mom loves to make a pot roast. Oh, tell her to make me one. I will. The next time she's visiting. Okay. All right. They had a beautiful hot honey fried chicken. And so the whole game plan with the boys, and it's all talked about way before. It's like, hey, heads up, everybody, don't eat today. Yes. And so really I had, in my mind, I hadn't eaten. I had an oatmeal in the morning at like 7 a.m. Okay. So you ditched the plan already.

1:23:38You ate. I ate because we had to eat those wings. But it wasn't like, I was like, I'm not going to eat lunch. I'm not going to eat whatever. I'm going to eat 7 ,000 calories in about 45 minutes once we get to this thing. And also I didn't want to betray the pack. So we arrive and I said to everyone, like, what is it? Charlie's like, I've only had a protein shake today. We're like, good, good job. And then, you know, everyone's going to thing. And I'm like, I just had oatmeal. I don't know why. I like forgot. Well, okay. I know why you forgot. You don't, you don't feel like you're eating. No, it wasn't a meal.

1:24:05Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I just, I forgot I had had that. Yes. Then we go to the thing and that's really fun. And we go hard and I eat so much. I even have a Sunday. Oh, this was a total hack. If anyone's ever goes to the dugout club, they had fried plantains. Oh. But they're on the hot bar. They're on the other side of the thing. And then on the far end of the place, there's a soft serve machine and like some toppings. Yeah. So I made my soft serve. I was like, oh, fuck. Fried plantains on there. That's like a banana split, but fried. Pop those in there. It was heaven. We all ate so much. We had so much fun.

1:24:39I made a good joke that I thought of your brother during. Oh. Because your brother was Kooky Jeps or. No, Mookie Betts. Well, that's the actual guy. Juki Betts. Juki Betts. He had or has a hat company in reference to Mookie. Yeah, but that's actually just Instagram. Oh, okay. Yeah. Mookie Betts is on the Dodgers, and all these guys have the best asses. And we're directly behind home, where they warm up. Oh, did you make fart noises? No, but I did heckle him. Oh, great. It was Mookie Betts, and he was like eight feet away. And I had, again, I had a gaggle of like 60-year-old women in front of me, which was great.

1:25:19And then he's up there kind of just warming up. And he's so close. And I go, Mookie Betts, more like Mookie Buns. Oh, wow. Yeah. Wow. The ladies loved it. It's a great compliment to him. Sure. I think it put a spring in his step. He had a dynamite night. Did he? He knocked some homies. Okay, but maybe he was so insecure. Maybe he has an insecurity about his big butt. No way. When you got those juicy. Juky bets. Juicy, jukey bets. But maybe he was like, all anyone thinks about is my butt. And no one recognizes me for the athlete that I am. I mean, that's a sentence that makes sense. There's no way anyone hates having a great ass.

1:26:02Maybe because I was denied a great ass. Exactly. So you might not know. Right. But I'm pretty sure everyone would like to know they have a great ass. Okay, great. So that was a blast. Yellen Mookie buns, all the stuff. It's so fun. Go home. Next morning, I'm like, I want to check in with the guys. Because, again, we all ate probably 10 ,000 calories. And so I'm like. But you felt fine? No. Midway through, I kept thinking, am I going to have Hannes? Right. But I was confused because I had literally forgot we had eaten all these insanely hot wings. Yes. So they were in my intestines. Making their way through.

1:26:44Yes. And you can feel the heat the whole time. And it felt like squirrels fighting. And I thought, oh, that's Hannes coming. So I was totally off base. And I kept telling the guys, I might have Hannes. Yeah. But anyways, the next morning I check in with the guys. I'm like, anyone have Hannes? It took me two trips, but I got there. And then immediately Nate's like, I knew it was the pot roast. I didn't touch that pot roast and I feel great. blah, blah, blah. And then all of a sudden I realized, oh, and then I write, oh, yeah, I also had five hot wings at maximum temperature. Yeah. And it was like pretty relevant detail to leave out.

1:27:24I was like fishing to see if everyone got Hannes from this experience. Yeah, you thought like maybe it was food poisoning. Or just I would like to know if everyone else had Hannes. But it was the wings. So it was definitely the wings. Also, food poisoning is last on the list. I didn't think I had food poisoning. Because like Hannes. It's not maybe a bad combination, like dairy, the plantains, the pot roast. No, just the amount you ate. The amount maybe. Sometimes the amount is just enough to create a tornado. Yes, yes. They just don't mix well. I also, I thought I was going to have Hannes, but I didn't.

1:28:00You did not. Which was surprising. Are you sure? Well, no, I'm sure. Okay. But I did have an interesting movement. Okay, great. This is basically that long lead up was to find out what happened for you the next morning. Yeah. Well, no, that night. Oh, that night. I have a fast acting system. Fast acting to an acting. In fact, I was a little nervous during eating. You even said you might Tonka. Yeah, I could Tonka there or on the way home. I don't know. But I wasn't. And I too kind of forgot. But when I first got home, I was like, oh, I'm definitely going to poop. Yeah. Yeah. And, but then I didn't.

1:28:40And I think that was, as you said, the squirrels. Yeah. The squirrels fighting. Yeah. They were fighting. Like the way they run around the branches. Yeah. Yeah. But they didn't want to come out. They don't want to come down the tree. They were just wanting to play. Yeah. They love playing. So then I forgot. I had wine with a friend. I was out and about. And then, yeah. Then that night I was like, oh God, I feel so full. But why do I feel so full? I barely, I didn't eat today. Yeah. Great. You forgot too. I also kind of forgot. But then I was like, oh God. Yeah. It's the wings. It's the fiery wings.

1:29:20And then I had an interesting movement. It wasn't honest. Did you feel heat when it passed through? That's a good, I didn't feel heat, but I felt pain. Pain. Yeah. Yeah. It felt painful. It felt as if it was Hannes, but then when I looked, it wasn't. Right, right, right. Which was interesting. I had pain, but I didn't have burning, which I guess is a blessing. Because I have had burning once. Right. And that was that Carolina Reaper chocolate. I don't want that. You can't do it. No. You thought you were going to fall over on those wings. It's funny, though, because last night, the girls, we went to an incredible Thai restaurant.

1:30:03so good. And one of the dishes we got was this papaya salad. It was incredible. It was spicy. And one of the girls was like eating it and she was like, oh my God. It was like so, so spicy for her. And I thought, how are people doing hot ones? Like a lot of people I think are like our friend, Laura, who could like barely eat this papaya salad. How like on the scale compared to what we had to eat. It was nothing. Right, right. Yeah, she would be in big, big trouble. She'd be dead. Has anyone died on it? People, like, get the burps and they can't answer the question. And then, I mean, now I'm doing it.

1:30:46But that's the appeal of the show is people lose their shit. You know what was weird? You didn't drink any milk. I didn't, no. I thought that was so weird. Yeah, I just was imagining putting dairy on top of that. It just felt like not the combo I wanted. It really helped. It did. Yeah, I drank so much. And then you also brought a big jar of honey with you. And then when we got in the truck, you had like a humongous scoop of honey. I brought a bottle of honey and a spoon in a Ziploc bag because I was told that honey helps. So the last one you eat, you add all this extra hot sauce to. So that one is.

1:31:26Nuclear. It is nuclear. Like I, my lips were burning for five hours. Yeah. I touched my penis and testicles and I had washed my hands before I peed. So I thought it was off my fingers and I had quite a bit of discomfort on my penis and everywhere I touched south of my belt for a while. Yeah. Then I went to sauna later before the game. Yeah. And it reignited all the pain. Oh, wow. Everything caught back on fire. Interesting. And then somehow I forgot I had done that. A half hour later I was at the game. Well, it messed with our brains. Yeah. So anyway, I— Check that out in December next year or whenever it comes out.

1:32:12Yeah, it's coming out in a long time. But it was really fun. Yeah. I liked it. It was fun. It was a nice switch up. Yeah, it was. Yeah, yeah. Want to do some facts? Yeah, let's do some facts. Okay. Okay, facts for Bobby Brown. Oh, Bobby Brown. I like him spunky. Yeah, she's so cool. Is spunky still a positive? I hope so. I think so. I like it. I think so, yeah. I like if someone calls me spunky. Do you like to be called spunky? Yeah. Yeah. I think I'm spunky. Is Pluck the other? It's like the more old-fashioned English. Yeah, Pluck is a. She's got a lot of pluck. Yeah, that one sounds worse. Yeah, you'd rather be known for being spunky.

1:32:53Yeah, Punky Brewster. Spunky Brewster. Okay, Bobby. So Bobby is a hero. I don't like him. She's a beast. Yeah. She brought up, well, the subject of data and data came up again. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Both are correct. Both are acceptable. Data is generally preferred in British English, while both data and data are used in American English. I also think the robot on Star Trek was named Data. Okay. Okay. For whatever that's worth. It says data is more common in technical contexts. Oh, really? Which is the opposite of what I said. Yeah. The opposite of what I would have thought too. So. Okay. There we go.

1:33:40Take your pick. Take your pick. This is like people really hate this word, but it's in the dictionary. What word? Fuck. Oh, moist? No, no, no. No, it's like, oh, irregardless. Oh. People hate irregardless. I don't like it. And when I write it, they'll go, that's not a word. And I'm like, and then I say, it's in the dictionary. Which dictionary? All dictionaries. Really? Yeah. Is it in like a new dictionary? Like they added it for people like you? I don't know, but it is, if it's in the dictionary, I can play it in Scrabble. I can use it in my. But isn't like dope or whatever that like Simpsons word in the dictionary?

1:34:27Is it D-O-H? I think it is. I don't know. But irregardless, solid word. It's there for good. Okay. Well, you have the right to use whatever word you want. Yeah, yeah. I will not be using irregardless. I'm in the camp that that is a double negative. It's not good. It's a big trigger for people. Yeah. Big, big trigger. It's not like what's worse than that for me is what's worse. There's one that's worse. That's just blatantly misused. Well, no, there's one that people add a letter to the way they're saying it because it's spelled that way, but it's supposed to be pronounced. It's like very, it's not coming to me.

1:35:09It'll come to me. People get mad about the thawed. Thawed? Thawed and de-thawed. Oh. Yeah, the same thing. defrost, not de-thawed. Yeah, I've never said de-thawed. But I can see where people would object. It's a double negative. Yeah. This is like all downhill from here. It's similar. I'm not on the, I'm not a word police. You know. You're other kinds of police. Yeah, yeah, I am. I am. Thank God I don't also have, I don't know if I could even be with me. Irregardless, it's in there. What were we talking about before? Or irregardless? Data and data. Oh, data and data. Okay. So she sold Bobby, I'm sorry.

1:35:54She, yeah, sold Bobby Brown in 1995 for$75 million. That is$159 million today. Okay, I said$250. Yeah. I was being a little. Optimistic. Yeah. These people who can build multiple billion-dollar companies, I just, so impressive. Put on them. So impressive. Yeah. It really is. Okay. There's a quiz you're going to take. Okay. It's a learning styles quiz. Okay. Because we talked about visual learners. Yeah. She said she was a visual learner. She did. Yeah. So we're going to find out what you are. Okay? Okay. Now, the choices are often, sometimes, and seldom. Often, sometimes, seldom. Yes. Okay. I follow written directions better than oral directions.

1:36:42Seldom. Okay. I can remember more about a subject through listening than reading. Sometimes. I bear down extremely hard when writing. Always. What is that? Often. Often, yeah. Really? I like to write things down or take notes for visual review. Yes, often. I require explanations of graphs, diagrams, or visual directions. I don't think so. Seldom. Seldom. I enjoy working with tools. All the time. I am skillful and enjoy developing and making graphs and charts. Never. I can tell if sounds match when presented with pairs of sounds. I'd say, yeah. Often or sometimes? Often. Okay. I remember best by writing things down several times.

1:37:27Often. I can understand and follow directions on maps. Uh, often. I do better at academic subjects by listening to tapes and lectures. Often. I play with coins or keys in pockets. I mean, I have this as my binky. I'm going to say often. I can better understand a news article by reading about it than by listening to it on the radio. False. Rarely. Seldom. Seldom. I learn to spell better by repeating the letters out loud than by writing the word on paper. Never. Okay. I chew gum, snack, or smoke during studies. Always. I feel the best way to remember is to picture it in one's head. I don't know.

1:38:11Sometimes. Okay. I would rather listen to a good lecture or speech than read about the same material in a book. I learn spelling by finger spelling. Spelling words in the air with index finger the words. Never. Seldom. I am good at working and solving jigsaw puzzles. Sometimes. I prefer listening to the news on the radio more than reading about it in the newspaper. Often. I grip objects in my hands during learning periods. Often. I obtain information on an interesting subject by reading related materials. Often. I follow oral directions better than written ones. Often. I feel very comfortable touching others, hugging, handshaking, etc.

1:38:52Too much. The results are your perv. Okay. Interpreting the perceptual preference form. Your perceptual preference can indicate through which channel to your brain information flows most easily. Information that you receive through your preferred channels is more quickly understood and more easily remembered. Arrange your academic life to take advantage of your best channels. Your highest score, tactile. Oh, touchy, touchy. You learn best by experience or hands-on activity by being involved physically in classroom experiences. You remember information well when you actively participate in activities, field trips, and role-playing in the classroom, or working on experiments in a laboratory, handling and building models, and touching and working with materials.

1:39:39Writing notes or instructions or a combination of stimuli, for example, an audio tape combined with an activity such as listen to a summary of tapes you've made while you jog, or making flashcards will help you understand and remember new material. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. Your auditory score was second. That was a 30. Your tactile was a 36. Then your auditory is a 30. Your lowest is visual at 24. Okay, so I'm not a visual learner. Turns out, no. Not true. That was cool. Yeah. Do you want to give me the computer and I'll do it to you? No, it's all right. Okay. What do you think you are based on that?

1:40:15I think I am a visual learner. Okay. Ironic because your vision is not great. I think how brilliant you'd be if you could see. I know. Oh, my God. It'd be too much for the world. it's why when I read I like like a book I don't like an audiobook it's in and out I can't follow that can't hold on to it yeah yeah but that one's a little tricky because I do retain a lot of here in podcasts but that feels different to me for some reason yeah maybe that feels more like a classroom a professor yeah situation it's because often there's two people so it's a conversation It's engagement. I don't get to tune out.

1:40:56Right. And I feel like I'm participating. Yeah. You're like making a counter argument sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. It's engaging. Yeah. I don't think I'm very tactile. Although. You're not super mechanical. No. And you don't do pottery. Were you good at origami or folding paper? I never tried it. I don't know. That's Link. Like that's when Link kind of blows my mind is the things she builds. Like this card she made you for your birthday was so cute. It was so cute. Or her dioramas she makes. I'm like, oh, yeah, she really has a knack for this. Yes. Yeah, no. That's probably my lowest. Yeah. But I do like holding things.

1:41:38And I do like toothpicks. Sure. A little technical. I like chewing on. I like having like some objects while I'm. Oral stimulation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. While I'm busy. Yeah. Oral fixation, they call it. Let's call it that. Let's go. So I'm a perv, too. Let's stick with the traditional. Your results are in. You're a perv. Okay, that's it. That was it on Bobbi Brown? Yeah. You must admire her now. So much. Yeah. So much. I felt. Very seen. I did. I was like, oh, especially when she talks about being in the details and that being like, you know, in her head, she was like, yeah, no, I was fired. They wouldn't say I was fired, but they told me to get out of the day-to-day.

1:42:21That is the job. Yes. That's how I feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I get her. Yeah. It also made me—it's a good heads up for, like, it's easy to be judgmental of people on their phone when you're doing a shared activity. Yeah. You know, like if you're watching a movie. It's certainly my preference. Someone would not be on their phones. Yeah. To hear her say it, and I'm not involved in that. And that's just how she, that's how she enjoys sitting there with a movie on. I know. I was like, yeah, I gotta be more. Well, I think that's just having an understanding of the other person. But also they could have an understanding that like you enjoy quality time, which means not being distracted on the film.

1:43:01Yeah. I mean, I do that, but I'm by myself. Yeah. If I'm with people, I try not to do that. Same. I even know if I'm by myself, I'll be like, put this down. You're gonna either watch this or put this down. Right. I try to, but then all of a sudden it's back in my hands. I started the wrong show, but what a blessing. What? Ryan's been saying that the Jason Momoa thing is great. It's on Apple TV. Okay. You know, he's in like a loincloth and stuff. Oh, you love that. Yeah. You can see his buns a lot, I guess. Oh, you love that. So I go to Apple TV and boom, there it is. He's on the cover. He's looking warrior-like.

1:43:36I watch it. It's called Sea. Uh-huh, yeah. And it's by Stephen Knight, Peaky Blinders. Oh, cool. And the premise is it's in the future and all humans are blind now. Right. And it's great. But I'm sending Ryan voice memos going, when am I going to see his buns? Like, also, I guess the only hard thing to accept about the show is that they can still fight even though they're blind, whatever. He sends me one back. You're not watching the same show. I am. So Momoa has two shows on Apple. Wow. What's the other one, Rob? Chief of War. Chief of War. C's a little older. Chief of War just came out. Okay.

1:44:17But he's got two where he's in the jungle swinging a sword. I mean, at the same time. You should come on and tell us about them. Oh, I'd love to have him on. You'd love to see those buns in person. I like following him on Instagram. He's always having a good time and drinking a lot of beers. Oh, is he? Yeah, I think he has a really good appetite for brewskis, which I think is cool. Nice. All right. All right, love you. Love you. Thank you.

1:45:13short survey at wondery.com slash survey.