Bridget Read (on multilevel marketing)

24:43Oh. So at the time in the 30s, when this guy's at Stanford, eugenics, the idea that certain characteristics are undesirable, largely black and brown people, and that we can weed out unproductive, inefficient characteristics. And we should do that. And we can create a better and more efficient society. Selective breeding like crops. Which, of course, in the 30s becomes really related to Nazism. And that's why as a fad, it has academic departments and it's totally accepted. And then very quickly in the lead up to World War II and after it becomes debunked as a pseudoscience and racist. But this guy was steeped in that stuff.

25:17And then he starts this almost like eugenics-y Dr. Ruth, where he opens a psychological practice and does family counseling. And teams up with this other guy, Paul Popeno, who's a sort of more well-known figure in this space, who's doing family counseling for specifically white families and basically discouraging divorce, discouraging women living alone. So it's all very preserving the nuclear family. Yeah, white race. Exactly. And a patriarchal household. And he's going on radio shows and doing occupational therapy. And it's very familiar now. He's doing lessons on how to do a job interview or how not to feel lost.

25:56Self-help. Right. And doing it on the radio. So he's very good at manipulating people. That's his field. And he writes a self-help book that doesn't do very well. So when all of that context is in it, then it's harder to extend a generous assessment. That's why within 20 years, all of these companies are extremely problematic because we've now had them around long enough to see how they work. When they invented it, all people saw in MLM was people doing well. And that's because right away, the other number one invention of multiple marketing, in addition to rewarding people based on what they buy, is turning that around and calling them sales.

26:34So instead of Dak saying, oh, I sold Bridget$1 ,000 worth of wholesale vitamins, if we're doing a 50 % discount, he says, I have$2 ,000 in retail sales right away. Because I know it's going to go down line. The hypothetical sale, they just reported as reality. And this is in their documents. In the documents we have on how it worked, it's just very open that they reported retail sales as a just estimate based on whatever discounts people were getting of what they bought. Whoa. So that's why on that 10-year anniversary, Neutralite says it's a X million dollar business, which at the time was huge.

27:10I can't remember the exact figure because they're just counting everything that everyone's buying and assuming that it's all being sold. And that to this day is how the industry estimates its value. That was Enron as well. Counting future projected profits. Exactly. It's called speculation and it's responsible for many of our recessions over the last 100 years. Now, I have to imagine there are varying levels of success in these. I can imagine there are companies where a good percentage of it did get sold or not. And I'm curious. So the first one, Neutral Life, were they or it was better out of the case?

27:45So Neutralite ends up getting government attention, but not first from the FTC, which is the agency, the Federal Trade Commission, that now goes after bad MLMs. But it was the FDA because vitamins were the product and regulation was catching up to vitamins. They're making crazy claims. Alfalfa pills was his chosen product. The hero product. They could cure cancer. They can make you skinny. They could make you fatter if you were too skinny. They could cure of worry of small things. So the FDA comes in and says, no, no, no, this is violating all the rules that we do have. And they try to get them to pulp these booklets.

28:22They don't. It goes all the way to the state Supreme Court. And Neutralite actually enlists this very famous lawyer named Charles Ryan, who was Richard Nixon's roommate at Duke. Oh, wow. And he becomes a quite prominent Republican. But anyway, they allow a bunch of claims through. And as long as they just make those claims, they don't shut down the company. So that's in the 50s. But what we do have from that court case are statistics on success in the company. And right away, under 2 % of people enrolled in the company were even making the minimum to be considered like a leader. The current figure in your book is 99 % of everyone that gets involved with an MLM will lose money.

29:05Yeah. Yeah. So this is the first one. And those statistics are like that. Yeah, you just have to imagine walking into, I can't even think of a place that employs 100 people, but you go onto the floor of an assembly line and there is 100 workers in there and you're thinking about applying and the person says, oh, just so you know, only one guy here of these 100 is getting paid. You would never put in your fucking application. That's a staggering statistic. They don't recruit with those income disclosures. And at various times when the FTC has tried to regulate MLM, they do it often in that way.

29:41There will be an earnings claim rule that they'll try to pass where an MLM would have to give you all of those true earnings statements when they recruit you and make sure that you read it. And you'd have to take seven days to review it. So, yeah, of course, they don't recruit openly. But right away, the first company, the statistics are dismal for success. And then such an obvious parallel with the MLM, just the American ethos in general, which is as long as we can prop up the one person that did crush, it perpetuates the whole dream. Like all you need is the 1 % being very vocal that are making money to make you ignore all the people around you that are not.

30:22It's like when people are like, yeah, black people can succeed just as easily. Look at Obama. Yeah, we got one guy and we're like, problem solved. And the idea is that if you're not doing well, it's your own fault, right? Because everybody has an equal chance to buy in. When of course, it's not equal. Because if you're early in it, of course you have a better chance. But also, everybody's not a good salesman. It's hard. And so it's just never been on equal footing. But when you're recruited, they're going to say, oh, we do everything for you. You're going to have amazing sales training. And nowadays, podcasts, YouTube, audio books, there's so much that they'll give you that will make you think you have an equal chance.

31:05But it's just never been that way. And of course, also now the problem is we live in a world where you can buy everything at big box retailers for cheap prices. Every MLM is expensive. And it's always been that way. Neutralite was very expensive because all you care about is what they're buying. You don't care about what they're selling. So you need it up front to be expensive. And of course, that means that even if people only do it for a few months, you're getting a lot of money more than you would if you made it cheap. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Let's take a minute to thank our presenting sponsor, Audible.

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32:52Visit audible.com slash dax. That's audible.com slash dax.

33:04There's also this deep irony, which is the appeal of it is totally understandable, which is be your own boss, which of course isn't really even true because you were recruited and you pay up line, but you probably are disenfranchised with the broader options, jobs available. And you think that there's a kind of hierarchical cabal happening and you've been excluded. And this is a license to not have to play by all those rules. And then you enter into the most structured hierarchical cannot move up scenario. It's just so ironic that the appeal of it, what it promises versus what is, it's the exact opposite.

33:43You're locked into the downline, which is the most important thing because it determines what you're going to get. And that's why people these days, like the Amway downlines, for example, and the two guys who start Amway come from Neutralite. They end up buying Neutralite in the 70s. So Amway is functionally the oldest MLM in the world, those families that did well in Amway and got in early in the 60s, they still are at the top of the downline. The Amway founders actually have a position in the downline in addition to owning the company. Oh my God. And they still have it. And so it really is like a little dynasty.

34:22And this is why in the past, the SEC tried to regulate MLM as a security because it is like a position. If you bought stock in Apple in X year, the value is worth this. If you joined at this time and your position is here in the downline, so all the downlines under you, even if you stopped recruiting long ago, but you have a recruiter that then built their own big downline, you're sitting pretty on your empire. And they give those positions to their families. They're transferable. What? Yeah, but you can inherit an Amway business. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Which, of course, is like the idea that you're selling products.

34:58That's a joke. You know, it just is even more evidence that it's not based on product sales because the idea that the Amway founders are selling products door to door. What is the technical product of Amway? Yeah, so tell us the history of Amway. So Rich DeVos, as in Betsy DeVos, that's her father-in-law, and J.V. Nandel. These are two high school buddies from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Uh-oh. That's where Dax is from. And they are from this very devout Calvinist Christian sect of the Christian Reformed Church in Grand Rapids. DeVos and Van Andel, they joined Neutralite around, I think, 1949. And they are very successful.

35:39They build a huge organization of bringing people in. And they then do what becomes a pattern in MLM, which is, as we've discussed, the statistics are as bad as, say, gambling. it's always better to be the house than to be a gambler. Yep. Even the most successful gambler. So people start their own MLMs almost immediately. And they're really funny because some of the early ones are just literal copies. And these are in the book. The guy who starts one of the first ones, he calls it a Bunda Vita. And if Nutralite was a little alfalfa pill, he's like, well, my alfalfa pill is from this special farm in Colorado.

36:16And you can only harvest it between midnight and 3 a.m. because of the moon. Oh, my God. You know, it's like such bullshit, but it's exactly the same. Now, if you're starting your own, do you still get the Neutralite earnings as well? No. What they do is they take a lot of their team with them. So they start Amway with a built-in downline. Okay. And they name the company before they even have a product, which ding, ding, ding. Another piece of evidence that the product is the people. Irrelevant, yeah. They bring their downline over and they start Amway, which stands for American Way, shortened to Amway eventually.

36:48And they start with a product that's a liquid cleaner. And they were really prescient. It was a sort of natural cleaner. In the 70s, they're sort of ahead of the curve when people are starting to talk about chemicals. And that's one of their first products. But then it expands. And now you can buy anything from Amway. And when you join Amway, they encourage you to get rid of what you're buying from Costco or Walgreens. Buy Glister as their toothpaste. They have the money to manufacture all of this? It's wild. They're just private label products. They're white label products. Amway does have a factory in Michigan, but they're marked up.

37:24You've never heard of Glister, right? Right. Why would you? But the idea that this is one of the top 100 private companies in the U.S. and you've never heard of the products? Yeah. That's weird, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they start their company, Amway. They're incredibly good at recruiting and at the business opportunity. And they're just really good. And so they start doing that in Michigan. At the same time, another branch splits off. I described the alfalfa in the middle of the night. That's this company called Abundavita. Those guys are like, well, we don't like this. We're going to start a new one.

37:58And it's literally like a virus spreading. And there's a company called Nutribio. And that company really is probably the first pyramid scheme because it spreads across the country like wildfire. They're really good recruiters. They go into Canada. They spread, spread, spread. the authorities take notice and they are shut down within a few years. Again, by the FDA rather than the FTC, because it's about the products and the claims of the products. And those guys then spread even more companies out here in California. Sorry, the parallels between religion are so amazing as well. It would be so logical for anyone in the mid rung of this pyramid to recognize, all I got to do is take my downline over here and now I'm the top of the pyramid.

38:43So like what a natural thought. You just have to be a guru and you got to be selling a good story. And there's the proselytizing and the spreading. It just has all these parallels of American Christianity, which is, well, this is a new spin on it. Well, why don't I have a spin on it? DeVos and Manil were raised in this Calvinist church, which has a really strong tradition of proselytizing and sermons. And in that tradition, the prosperity gospel is very strong. And the Protestant work ethic, that term by Max Weber, the sociologist, is coined when he comes to America and observes this group of people.

39:16Oh, really? The Calvinist Christians. That's who they were referring to. Not Puritans, not the like Massachusetts pilgrims, but these guys, because their work ethic is extremely strong and they're doing it all to be more godly. Like Mormons. Exactly. And this idea that accumulating wealth is actually going to get you closer to God. It's not bad and it's not greed. Where you're going to get into heaven is based on how industrious you are on earth. So they're doing it in Michigan, the Amway guys. these much flashier companies. There's one called Holiday Magic, which is amazing. They're selling makeup.

39:48So in the 60s, makeup becomes the product as women stream into MLM. At first, it was these Christian couples and Amway did the same thing. So Neutralite Amway, it's Christian couples. And then in the 60s, more women are entering the labor market and they want to go to work, but they still have to do childcare. It's much harder to enter the sort of traditional wage labor market where you're working a nine to five or you're checking in in a factory. So they're doing work and they also need to supplement it. And so they want this flexible pitch. So that becomes the pitch. And then in the 60s, you get Mary Kay, which is probably the most well-known company for women.

40:24She starts her company in Dallas and she's this old grandma. And her story is that she was in traditional door-to-door selling when she just came upon this business model with her husband. They're about to start the company. It's 1963. 1963, she became the best salesman at her old company and they promoted a guy above her. There's this like pseudo-feminist thing. And her husband, well, he drops dead at the breakfast table the day before they're starting the company. So she's all by herself. So she murdered him. She was like, this is going to be huge. I got to get him out of the equation. I don't think that happened.

41:00But that origin story persisted for so long. And that was a niggling thing for me when I was doing my research because I was like, well, wait, the other companies I described to you that nest, you can document it, how these guys took the company idea and they just copied the plan, which is what they called multiple marketing, like done, done, done, truly. They just copied the plan with different products. And this lady in Texas, I'm like, but how did she figure it out? And I'm trying to have an open mind. So I'm like, maybe it does make sense from direct selling. And it isn't this specific fraud that's being copied all over the country.

41:33Right. But what I discovered was that her husband worked for one of these other companies, Nutribio. And it just was never, she always said her husband was a businessman and she never said what kind. And I was able to find his death record and newspaper records that showed he worked for this company, Nutribio. The one I said was the country's first pyramid scheme. Wow. So they're all like a nest and you can trace them all the way to Herbalife, which starts in the 90s. The guys who started Herbalife, they trained in these early companies in the 60s. And so it's all the same thing. And then what happens in the 70s is the government finally tries to crack down.

42:07What prompts that? At one point in the 70s, one in eight Americans had tried multilateral marketing. One in eight. Which is just crazy. Yeah, today that would be 40 million, 45 million people. Tried as in they participated, they were selling or had enrolled to join. Because I've been to some Mary Kay parties. You have? Yeah. Oh, in Georgia? Yeah, because you're from the South. I'm from the South. That makes sense. And did you enjoy them? I would just be brought by my aunt or my mom. They give you all these samples, but they're like tiny things of lipstick. And it's pretty wild. But it's fun, right?

42:44The parties are fun. It's interesting what's being sold. And then it gets really hard to evaluate what the people are really after and is it beneficial or not. It's multifaceted. I bet there are people who, yeah, they didn't make money, but they'll look back on that Mary Kay period of their life as maybe they loved it. Oh, 100%. And I've spoken to them and they've lost thousands of dollars and they don't care. That's right. Because it's a nice social network and they get together and the purpose is to get pretty that day and to feel special and all that. It's a tenuous business model in that I have to imagine the burnout, as you said, like one in eight people tried it.

43:18My assumption is it's easy to try and you exploit your immediate circle of friends and family. And then once that's over, you recognize it's going to be impossible to sell to strangers. You make your A list, which is your family and friends, your B list, which is your coworkers, maybe your acquaintances, and then your C list, which is the girls you DM on Facebook or Instagram. And so once you burn through those, very quickly you will learn. And there's a woman who I document in the book. Monique. Yes, because I wanted to show the granularity of, uh-oh, you've spent this money, you've bought all these products, you've gone through these people, and immediately your upline tells you, well, recruit, build a team.

43:57So even when you're struggling, now you're going out and saying, oh, join me. This is great. So immediately you're lying to somebody else. And then you're also lying to yourself because you're telling yourself, okay, well, I am going to sell it eventually because I'll build this team. That's what already is happening in the 70s when this many Americans have tried it. And the guys, not Amway, they're smart and they kind of keep the buy-in amount small. The scammy are companies like Holiday Magic, I mentioned, which is San Francisco based. And they're selling makeup. this other company that's amazing called Dare to be Great.

44:30And they're just selling self-help. They're doing tapes. And he's this like incredibly charismatic salesman with hair lip from the South, who is just an incredible speaker. And he starts in Holiday Magic and he's so scammy. They run him out and he just starts his own thing. Anyway, these guys allowed people to buy in for$15 ,000,$10 ,000 just straight up, which is very much red flag investment fraud. That's the gift circle model. Exactly. You're just buying into this position where you've bought the ability to access these greater cuts without even having to build the team under you. You buy in at this level and they'll assign people to you.

45:08Or once you recruit a certain amount, then you can basically cash out. And so they do that and very quickly attract the authorities. And that's when the attorney generals of all kinds of states, California passes its own chain selling, which is a Ponzi. That's one of the terms that comes up in the 70s. They passed very early legislation on that in 1968, one of the first states. But spreads like wildfire all around the country. And by 1971, the state's attorney generals, when they meet, oh, you're supposed to say attorneys general. It's so stupid. Oh, my gosh, that's dumb. I just heard someone say that the other day, and I was like, it sounds so wrong even though it's correct.

45:45At their annual meeting, they're like, this is the number one consumer problem in the country. Wow. The FTC as the federal, they're all kind of like, we have patchwork laws. We are trying to do chain selling. Is it consumer law? Is it an investment scheme? They don't even really know what it is. And that's when this term pyramid scheme starts being used to identify these companies. And you start getting the Better Business Bureau and local consumer orgs who are saying, this is a thing and this is bad and don't do it. And the FTC finally starts to crack down and they take down Holiday Magic, that one from San Francisco and they take down the Dare to be Great guy had a makeup company called Coscott.

46:25It's a play on Epcot. Oh boy. Okay. Because Disney is a big thing in Florida at this time and this guy's from Florida. I love Epcot. Experimental prototype community of tomorrow. I never knew that. Epcot stands for something like that. But so Coscott is just that. But for makeup and he calls it Coscott interplanetary because he's going to eventually expand. Oh, this guy's great. So anyway, And Costco, finally, when they take down that company for being a pyramid scheme, that legal precedent in 1975 is where we get the definition of a pyramid scheme. The Costco test. Exactly. So they decide how we're going to define a pyramid scheme.

47:04Yes. Then do they go into regulating and do they do a good job? So Walter Mondale, the senator from Minnesota. Mondale Ferrara. Exactly. Who eventually ran for president and lost. He writes a bill, the Pyramid Sales Act, introduces it in 1972. It doesn't pass, doesn't make it out of, I believe, the Senate. On that front, legislation kind of fails. And then the FTC, with these two big cases, has sort of set legal precedent, which enables them to go after other companies. And they finally set their sights on Amway in 1975. By this time, the Amway founders, DeVos and Van Andel, have become incredibly prominent members of the Republican Party.

47:48And they're donors from the right flank of the Republican Party. So what we now call the Reagan revolution or the new right. So during the 70s, when a lot of backlash because of how bad the economy was, that backlash helped fuel this more rightward revolution where we were going to fix the economy not by doing more progressive stuff, but the opposite deregulation. We're going to lower the tax rate, supply side economics. All those ideas are being built and funded in part by these guys who are helping to start the Heritage Foundation. They're funneling their money into the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which is a main incubator of this.

48:27And of course, they're giving a ton of money to politicians. And Gerald Ford, who becomes president by accident in 1974 because Nixon steps down and then Spiro Agnew, who's his replacement, he's got to go. And so Gerald Ford, this mild-mannered former football player from Grand Rapids, becomes president. Rich DeVos and Van Andel are close enough to him that they call him Jerry, right? And so he is president when the FTC finally files its case against Amway. He eventually runs for president and loses to Carter. And so he's not president during the investigation. But then by the time the FTC is ready to make its decision, it's actually not the FTC making the decision.

49:09It's a law judge. That's how an FTC case works. An administrative law judge makes a decision and the FTC then votes to uphold the decision. So it doesn't go to a jury or a trial or anything like that. And I guess I knew that, but I didn't really think about it, that it was just this one guy. One person. Like looking at the FTC's case, they make the case that Amway is a chain selling operation, that people are buying in and they're making money off recruiting and they're not making money on retail products, which is the Costco test. And by the time that guy's making the decision, that new right revolution has reached a fever pitch and it's all about the FTC.

49:45The FTC is trying at this point to regulate basically big private companies. And they're going after advertising. Like they try to make a children's advertising rule where companies would actually be forbidden to advertise to kids under a certain age. We would not have sugary cereal ads. We would not have toy ads. Because there's all these consumer groups coming out and saying, you know, this is actually really harmfully affecting children. People flip out. Those big companies, also the advertisers flip out. And they start running ads calling the FTC the national nanny. And they're blaming the FTC.

50:17And it feels very resonant today, right? Because it's like the FTC and the government, just a hotbed of cronyism. It's waste. It's fraud. The swamp. Exactly. It's all bureaucratic swamp. And we're going to drain it. And very much of it is focused on the FTC. So all of that's in the background when this guy is ruling on Amway. And those guys are in the press, in the vocal chorus against the government. They're very much backing Ronald Reagan, who's running for president. And so when he makes this decision, he basically puts his hands up and is like, OK, Amway, we accept your version of things, which is that Amway has these rules.

50:55They're now known as the Amway rules that keep it from being a pyramid scheme because they're all about retailing. So Amway tells the FTC, well, you have to have 10 customers a month. That's the 10 customer rule. You have to resell 70 % of the items you buy before you can buy more. Is it self-reported? It's not like anyone goes through their house. Oh, yeah. And then the third one is the buyback rule. So they enable people to sell their products back if they don't sell them, which, of course, would deter a company from being a pyramid scheme because you're saddling people with all these products.

51:27And if they can just give them back to you and you have to give their money back, then that would be hard. Of course, nobody cracks Amway's books to see if this is actually happening, right? And in these other cases, they had opened the books of Holiday Magic and Costco and seen how in Costco, they didn't even have makeup for the first year that they were in business, right? They had no products. So there was just all these ways you could see people were really being rewarded, but based on recruiting. In Amway, they really just took the company's word for it. They accepted that the company said, oh, we don't keep records.

51:59Okay. We're the only company in the world that doesn't keep records. Exactly. They don't keep the records that the FTC asked for, which would be like, what are people making? What are people buying? That's basically the only federal regulation that exists to this day. And because Reagan is so in bed with these people, and then they really back Bush one. And by now, the Amway founders are billionaires. They have a yacht. They're building new space for the RNC, the Republican National Committee. They're big, big donors. And so there's not a single prosecution against a pyramid scheme company through those two terms.

52:33So 15 years, we just have MLM exploding. And then we start going after certain pyramid companies in the 90s, but just one by one, one-offs. No one is taking on the business model itself. These hypothetical rules, do they actually exist? Has anyone ever tested them? Have you ever talked to anyone that worked for Amway that was able to get a buyback? Buyback rules have so many loopholes. You have to resell them after a certain time. You have to sell them back exactly in the same condition. You still are paying tax and shipping on the retail amount to send it back. So you're still losing money. So there's just so many different ways that the buyback doesn't work.

53:11It's also, I think, really important to imagine what state of mind someone would be in before they would initiate this buyback, which is it kind of parallels people who have been conned and that being the most underreported crime there is, is confidence schemes because the person's embarrassed that they got conned so they don't report it. Likewise, you would be at the point where you were saying, I failed at this. I have all this shit in my closet. You're not at your most robust. You're feeling like a failure and you probably want to forget this whole thing happened. And in the olden days when we hadn't gone online yet, you really were buying from a person, your sponsor.

53:53You were actually going to pick up the products from their house. And so the buyback would go through them. And so the idea that you're going to go to your sponsor. Like your friend. Exactly. And most likely berating you to do better for weeks. Or like your mom. Exactly. That you're going to go show up to her and be like, mom, I failed. Give me my money back. And it's her paying you. Now it's all done online. And so you're buying just from the company they ship it to you directly. And the downline is all digital. So it's like if I buy from Monica in the system, that's what's important is that Monica brought me in.

54:24And so you're still getting paid based on my purchases, but you don't have to do the admin like that. You could see why in the 70s and 80s. And there's a great short-lived Showtime show that is basically a company that looks like Amway called On Becoming a God in Central Florida. It starred Kirsten Dunst and Alexander Skarsgård. Ooh. It was so good. It was right before the pandemic. It was supposed to have a second season. Kirsten Dunst takes on the business and she really is the salesman and people are coming to buy from her. It's a great depiction of why it doesn't work in practice and the FTC didn't go observe it in practice.

54:55They just accepted it. And so we're just downstream from that decision being the only thing that mattered. Okay. So after Mary Kay, I want to talk about Monique because I think that's a really compelling story and I want to save time for her. But where does Herbalife fit into this. And how big are these companies? We don't really, there's so little oversight and they're private. And so even Herbalife, which is publicly traded, all their data is just on their distributors and what the distributors buy and they buy. So if you're investing in the sock, you're like, okay, they have data on that. I guess it would be inevitable.

55:28There's so many companies that have tried this. They're making so many different products. What's really comical almost is when one of them actually could be a business. Right. Like Herbalife. Could be AG. We have a friend who sells Herbalife. Uses it. I don't know if sells. We're getting a little ahead of ourselves, but Herbalife was fined by the FTC for being effectively a pyramid scheme. They didn't use those words, but in the FTC complaint, every function of a pyramid scheme they were accused of and they were fined$200 million. Whoa. And they had to restructure their business. And so now it is a little easier to be what's called a preferred customer in Herbalife and buy the products on a subscription model.

56:05But there's a lot of ways they get around that. And I've been watching them and I'm like, you guys, this is not good. But it is funny to think of someone starting it with the full intention of just having a business that makes money off of its employees. And then going like, oh, God, we kind of have a hit product here. Should we also try to just treat it as big? Yeah, should we just be legitimate? Yeah. I do want to call out the fact that they're not employees, right, which is really important because they're independent contractors. So that's another way we don't have oversight here because these are not employees.

56:34They're like 1099. Exactly. And so that already just gives you so much leeway because these are not your full-time employees. You don't pay benefits on them. Herbalife is started in 1980 by this guy, Mark Hughes, who actually as a child is in one of these schools related to Synanon. Oh, I love Synanon. What's Synanon? Remember I was talking all about it. It was this guy that was from AA and he started a program to help junkies. They played the game, which is this group therapy where you scream at each other. And it was so effective. People that weren't junkies wanted to join. And yeah, great documentary.

57:10And there's just a huge overlap between MLM because to stay in MLM really does rely on a lot of coercion, which is why MLMs have been accused of being cults, because there really is a lot of behavior that's similar to cults. And Keith Raniere, who started Nixxiom, learned Amway. And Nixxiom was multiple marketing. Tony Robbins was basically taken in by this guy, Jim Rohn, who was an evangelical preacher from the Midwest. He was one of the original executives of that very first pyramid company, Nutribio, that I talked about. Yeah. He was banned from operating a chain selling scheme in the state of California.

57:44So that was the 70s. He just takes a break and then comes back to Herbalife. They call him the international business philosopher or something. And you can still see clips of his sales, basically sermons, going viral on TikTok. Because he's very good at speaking about being persistent. But anyway, so him and a bunch of other guys who were involved in Nutribio and Holiday Magic helped Mark Hughes start Herbalife in the 1980s. He worked for a company called Golden Youth, which was run by this guy, Larry Huff, who if you just Google him and Attorney General of California, he's been banned from a million pyramid companies.

58:20I don't think he's living anymore. But Mark Hughes just learned the plan. They're just grifters. Moved to a different market. Exactly. And Mark being a kid in Synanon who then basically pimped out. There's a little anecdote people love telling about him that he visited Ronald Reagan when Reagan was the governor of California and like got him to donate to this school. He was very charismatic, but it's all to make money. And clearly this is a very vulnerable guy. And Mark Hughes, his whole thing was that his mom was an addict and died of basically being obese. That was the story they told at the time.

58:53I remember this is the 80s. So the way this is being talked about is really gross in a way we wouldn't talk about it now. He's like, now I run this supplement company and it's all about lose weight now. Ask me how. In 2000, he dies himself of an overdose. So while he's telling the story of being like a health nut, an Herbalife just explodes and everyone's doing it and celebrities and all this stuff. He has this mansion in Malibu and he dies of an overdose. And so Herbalife is just directly related to all these old companies. I want to talk about the Christian element of it. And in my own anecdotal experience, a lot of the people that have approached me with different MLM products learned about it in church.

59:34Yep. I want to cover that. And I also want to cover this maybe MLM in disguise now with remote working. It's been rebranded a bit. So hit me with the Christian aspect. From the very beginning, the Nutrilite guys definitely consider themselves Christian. And interestingly, one of them was a Christian scientist. We just learned a lot about that the other day. And this idea that you can impact your physical world with your mind, that is like a huge part of MLM. From the very beginning, multiple marketers associate themselves with this guy who writes a book called Thinking Grow Rich. That book is all about literally meditating on money.

1:00:09It's like the secret. Absolutely. And this guy, Norman Vincent Peale, who writes The Power of Positive Thinking in the 50s, He goes on to become Donald Trump's pastor in Manhattan at Marble Collegiate Church. I guess I'm just delighted he had a pastor. I didn't even really think there was ever a pastor. His dad loved this guy. And this book was The Secret of the 50s. Like, it was a huge popular book and bestseller. And so they loved coming. And this guy is saying, do not think negative. It doesn't matter what's happening around you. You can literally just create your own reality. God, well, he's done it.

1:00:41There you go. From the very beginning, this is an MLM. like meditate on the car, literally put a picture of the car on your fridge, put it in your drawer. Think about the Cadillac. I've done a vision board. Yes, it's a vision board. It's very much a part of it. So that's the mystical side. And then on the actual Christian side, more of a traditional Christianity rather than Christian science, which is only a 200 something years old and an American version of Christianity. The Calvinists in Amway, hugely, they're using churches. Well, it's a great place to network, right? Exactly. And one FTC economist who I spoke to who was raised in Grand Rapids, he actually met DeVos and Van Andel in church.

1:01:16So these communities are ripe for the picking. Yeah, prosperity, whatever they call it. Yeah, the prosperity gospel. Plus community, plus person in front of you that has attained it. Yeah, there's an Amway sect that I know that is operating out of a church in Brooklyn, in Long Island. and people are brought in thinking that it's something else because also these companies don't have to say it's Amway or say it's Herbalife or say it's whatever because they're independent contractors. You can use your own name. Oh my God. You can call it like, I'm in Freedom Legends or I'm in Sales Stars or I'm in a group called Rise Legends.

1:01:52They're all really corny. Yeah. And so maybe you're in church and you're like, stay after for Rise Legends, where we talk about self-development. Then they'll start saying, well, you should buy mentors and the mentoring is buying in. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:02:19Well, it's also a group that is by definition, not skeptical. Religious people. They are there to like buy in and take things at face value. Or maybe even if you are skeptical, you're taught not to voice that. Because I think a lot of people are way more skeptical than you think, but they're keeping quiet. And I actually spoke to so many people who just were afraid to be rude. And that's why church is such a insidious environment because people are supposed to be being kind to each other. When someone approaches you, your instinct is not to be like, whoa, this is scammy and weird. It's to be like, oh, we have this fellowship and to respond in fellowship and stay for the meeting.

1:02:58The whole thing's driven on being nice because the people who have pitched me, I've had a Cutco knife demonstration done for me. I've had the acai berry pitch or whatever. Mona V. Oh, Mona V. Those are just Amway guys. Yeah, I've sat through those and it's like, here's someone I love trying their best. So another sad, unavoidable pattern you see is these tend to explode when the economy is bad. From the very beginning. And that's why they exploded in the 70s because inflation was so bad and unemployment rose so much in the 70s. You just had people like pouring into these companies. They did it in the dot-com boom in the 2000s where they said, oh, these are home-based digital businesses or network marketing.

1:03:39That's when they started using these different terms. And then, of course, during the Great Recession, same thing. That's when Trump lent his name to this supplement company, which was called Ideal Health and rebranded as the Trump Network. And he's literally saying, this is how you're going to survive the recession. If you've been laid off, do this. And then, of course, the pandemic being the most recent moment where they always get this little boom of participation because people are falling for this pitch of you don't have to have a degree. You don't have to have$10 ,000 to invest in some business.

1:04:10All you need is$199 to start your starter kit and then they'll immediately ask you for$1 ,000. You have more control. And that's the thing that I think is really what it's getting into is the desire for control. People are feeling buffeted by these forces that are way bigger than them. And they have this sense of feeling wronged and injustice. And that's what's so really scary. And I think just so dark about it is that instead of channeling that to change something and to find others who are in a similar place as you and maybe do something about it and organize, it's all inward. And it teaches you to channel that inward and say, I can fix myself.

1:04:47I know, it's sad. And I can take myself out of this. Yeah, the fuel source for it is really a sad one that I have great sympathy for. And you explicitly say it in the book, which is there's a significant portion of the country that has just great distrust. And I think it's largely driven by income inequality. It's like you're looking at all these people that have all this stuff constantly, and now it's only exacerbated by Instagram and other ways to monitor people's life. And there's just this collective sense of something's unfair here. And this seems like a way to write the scales. Hack the system.

1:05:30And what's so crazy about that and why the subtitle of the book is literally how the pyramid scheme shaped America is because those dynamics that we talked about where there's only a fraction of people succeeding and more and more people are participating, but more and more people are losing. That is actually what's happening to the economy in terms of income and how a fraction of just a few people in this country are making so much more and keeping so much more than everyone paying in. Yeah, it's a microcosm for our entire system. And what MLM does is instead of looking at that and thinking, hey, why is this the way that it is?

1:06:10And maybe we could do something about that. It's keep going and maybe you'll get in that club one day. And we're all just trying to get into that fractional club instead of looking at the whole shape and saying, well, does it have to be this way? And is there a way that the distribution could be fairer? And what's so crazy and makes you kind of put your tinfoil hat on is the Amway founders and other people in multiple marketing have politically pushed and contributed to the policies that have made that inequality more stark, like bringing down the marginal tax rate, fighting any kind of wealth tax, which would take some of those profits and put them back in.

1:06:49And then tearing apart those social welfare systems that do give you something to fall back on and that are equal, that everyone has access to, whether that's, you know, they want to get rid of Social Security, pulling apart public education. All of that is to get rid of those collective safety nets that we all share and push this Wild West where you can make a lot of money if you're willing to exploit a lot of people. I hate to add this to the fire, but I was just at a conference, a lot of AI people and in that space. And I was saying to someone, all these products are making all these companies so much more efficient.

1:07:27People are wholesale cutting like 30 % of their workforce already replacing with AI. And I was like, wow, if you model this out, the only human in the whole scenario that will benefit from this is whoever owned the company when we started making it efficient. And then it's over. You know, there's not even a way to enter and climb. It was already up here, but now it's going to be a fucking straight line. There'll be one person with this enormous company that's being run by all this AI. It's going to accelerate. I think that that isn't far-fetched at all. And if we go all the way back to the beginning, to the people that invented this and this idea that one of them had about eugenics and about the idea that people are expendable and that some people are cogs in an efficient machine.

1:08:12That's not that far off from how MLM operates when it's successful. And that's why Monique's story is so important because you see how she is the most successful in that company when she is not caring about herself at all, just paying into the system and is functionally a cog. That's why MLM is so corrosive in that if you're not at the top, functionally, mathematically, you have to be losing. Yeah. So Monique was in the Air Force for 17 years. She gets out. She's on a retirement. It's like a stipend. It's$1 ,200 a month is her retirement from the Air Force, which is her rent. And she's wildly depressed.

1:08:51She's directionless. She's sleeping 15 hours a day. That career has ended and she's kind of at a loss of what to do. And someone, was it a church friend? No, she was in Florida and she tried to join this business networking group where she would meet people and maybe get a job. And so this woman in Mary Kay meets her there. This woman asked her repeatedly, would you like a facial? A facial, which is so weird because Mary Kay women aren't facialists. Yeah, there's training. Yeah, there's training and like a certification. They just teach you how to put makeup on. She joins in 2013. In 2013, we already had Sephora and Ulta.

1:09:22The idea that you're going to buy makeup from this lady in a pink, it's just so antiquated. She's super lucky, a pink Cadillac. She meets this woman and she gets the facial. And what I wanted to really make sure was out there was it was a weird thing. She didn't love it, right? It was awkward. I thought this is weird. But then she invites her to this party and she doesn't know anyone in Florida. And so she goes and there's food at the party and she's hungry. And they pray and she is looking to find her way back to religion because she was raised a Baptist and wants to feel closer to God again.

1:09:57And Mary Kay is very explicitly Christian and they pray and she just feels so much love and community. And she signs on for that starter kit, which is$199. And then from there, we just chart her journey. And right away, they get her to buy an$1 ,800 wholesale order because they say that's what star consultants do. And they have all these phrases like you can't sell from an empty basket and all this stuff. And she is basically spending$400 to$1 ,000 a month for a decade. And she's living on$1 ,200 and she has rent. They encourage her to talk about how successful she's being. Meanwhile, they know that the VA retirement benefits are what's sustaining her, barely.

1:10:35She's taken on a huge amount of debt and she has bought a house, but she's done it with a VA loan. So not with Mary Kay, but her uplines are convincing her. You tell your why in MLM, what are you getting out of it? Whether it's I get to be with my kids or I bought a house or I pay for school. Hers is I bought this house, even though they know that it's a lie. She's just spending, spending, spending. And they tell her, keep your eye on the horizon. It's an investment. And nowadays, the whole entrepreneur self-help world really helps these MLM people because they'll just show you a video where some entrepreneur is talking about how he lost a million dollars in his first year of business.

1:11:13And so they're just telling you, don't think of it as a loss. It's an investment. Or an entrepreneur saying how he never went to college because MLM is telling you, don't go to college, invest here, small business. And so that's what they're doing with her the whole time. Does she build a downline? She really only recruits a handful of people and then those people recruit. And at a certain point, she reaches a rank where you have to have a group of 24. And Mary Kay has this crazy qualification where eventually to sort of get to the next rung, you have to all be buying several thousands worth a month.

1:11:42And you push, push, push, recruit, recruit, recruit. And it's all to then walk across this stage and get this sash and a recognition at this convention, which I went to in 2023. But everyone is just buying. Everyone knows it. And Monique still to this day has all this stuff. She's supposed to have thousands of items. Yeah. Yeah, I would love to x-ray the whole country and just see like how much of this product is sitting in the salespeople's homes. I've had all these people just storing all this fucking product. Well, that's why, especially if you know somebody that sells it, they're using it all the time because they have to because they have so much around.

1:12:17Yeah. Putting on the makeup three times a day. Yeah. Yeah, and she really gets out of it, though, feeling love, feeling self-worth, feeling like she has a purpose and a place in this country. And so much of being American, right, is this idea that we can transform our circumstances. That's the American dream and that's the American story is we live in a democracy. We don't have royalty. We don't have these fixed hierarchies. We don't have nobility. Where you're born is not where you're going to die. And so that's really what she's trying to do. And she's a black woman. raised in poverty. It's really incredibly noble.

1:12:53What she's trying to do is build something for herself. She's taking care of family members. She served her country. Exactly. She served her damn country. And instead, she's being funneled into this horrifying dystopia, just like you said earlier, where they're feeding off of her every month. And I do think there are some people, I know there are some people that would come on and say, I have a really successful business. I have all these recruits. They're really happy. But I really would challenge them. And I know they wouldn't because they never do. But if you really opened your books as a successful multiple marketer and you see all your recruits and how much they're buying and how much they're actually making in an income, maybe you have a few on your downline who are also really successful recruiters and they're making money.

1:13:39But if you really open your books, you're just going to have masses churning in and out just like her who are buying, buying, buying. And your success is reliant on that. They're failures. And I would just challenge those people to really look at what is your success actually built on if it requires people to fail. Again, I think those people would say, well, they weren't good at it. We're at, I think this inflection where it's like being a country of just go get yours is kind of untenable and heartbreaking and has tons and tons of wreckage surrounding it. But where I came from in my very blue collar town is survival.

1:14:19You just had to fucking get ahead. Yeah, if someone was feeling below you, I don't think that was an ethical dilemma in that. Everyone's on the bottom. We must crawl out of this barrel and you got to get yours. And it's a defendable point of view if you're. Well, if everyone's at the bottom. If you're a desperate person. So I think a good chunk of the country still feels like, yeah, get yours and that's it. Absolutely. This is why MLM is such a useful story to be telling. And first of all, it's not just right wing. MLM has been bipartisan for a long time. The FTC finding of Herbalife that allowed the company and the business model to stay around was under Obama.

1:14:56This is not just like a Reagan thing or a right wing thing or Bush. And the reason I think it persists is because that story that this American style capitalism and the thing that we do in the free market that sort of meets out everyone's fate is ultimately fair and just. And we are in a democracy and we are living out that dream that the meritocracy is still working. The people that have so much more than everyone else, they got there fairly and that it's not something that should be possibly changed. Right. We shouldn't have a class war. We shouldn't even have a class discussion of whether this is fair.

1:15:31That's a really useful story for all kinds of elites on both sides of the aisle and always has been because the booms and busts that you asked about, like, why does MLM flourish in a dark economic time? We have these moments where capitalism is not working for all of us in the way that it's being practiced here. It is creating that sense of unrest and that things are not fair and things are rigged. And MLM just, again, seeds on the ground among individuals in their living rooms, in their churches that it's still fair. You just keep grinding, just keep going. It's going to work out for you. It'd be interesting to see because mostly in the book, at least, this has historically really preyed on women uniquely.

1:16:13But it's interesting to imagine the flip that is ahead for us when you have 20 some percent of 20 year old boys unemployed. And you could say that crypto is the MLM for men when they're not just straight up gambling and being addicted to gambling sites and just doing lotteries, which is why just bypass the whole thing altogether. And, you know, what you were talking about, basically the Gilded Age, where get yours was a matter of policy. It was your moral, actually. Right. We were in the Wild West of those robber barons. The reason they're called the robber barons is they were robbing. They were fighting.

1:16:51They were calling police on horses and shooting into crowds of workers when they were doing strikes, right? This is before the New Deal, before the sort of modern era of worker-employer relations where we had some boundaries on what private companies and capitalists could do. And that's why we have child labor laws. That's why we have the right to organize a union. That's why we have all of these things. And for a while after the New Deal, in this American era where MLM was conceived, that stuff was something to be prideful about. Ronald Reagan was a spokesperson for GM when the union at GM was really important.

1:17:29And of course, there were all kinds of ways that GM was always trying to undercut the workers because, of course, their interests are different. But like the idea that there were wage laborers who had rights was a point of pride and was something that we then built the welfare state on those rights, too. If you were GI, you could go to college on the GI Bill or you could go to a public school. These are things that everyone has access to. It's the opposite of get yours. And of course, again, lots of flaws in all of these systems, lots of flaws in Social Security. But the idea of it is that we all have access.

1:17:58It's not Darwinian. It's not you only get it if you can get it. And so these guys who built MLM already in the 40s, they're trying to reverse that. They're trying to then seed this idea that actually, no, no, no. Let's go back to the get yours. Let's go back to the Wild West. They're very honest that they want to rebrand this free, free, free market deregulation. That Wild West rebranded as it's not a place where everyone's being hurt. It's not a violent place. The ferry boats aren't crashing. But actually, it's like, that's how we're going to be freer. That's how we're going to get democracy.

1:18:33Independence. Exactly. We will all benefit. And of course, trickle down. Literally, that's the idea, right? That if we let these people accumulate as much wealth as possible. Y 'all be rich. We will all get it. Yeah, yeah. And that's what's happening. And again, not to put the tinfoil hat on, but so many people seem ready to accept that story. Where is it? So many people. It's only in America where you have people paying into Amway$400 a month. I talked to one woman who, by the end, she and her husband, he worked in an oil field. They had a little baby. They're budgeting$20 a week for their groceries because of how much they're spending on Amway.

1:19:06Oh, my God. And they are looking at the fact that the Amway families have a yacht. They have their own family office because they have so much money. Their kids will never work. Their kids' kids will never work. This is an American dynasty. These are royals. And they're just thinking, I'll get there one day. They're like, I'm so proud of this yacht. And of course, this woman has since left and she's basically done cult deprogramming. But like only in America, I think, are you not getting in the streets being like, excuse me. Yeah, this will not stand. We're just all getting back to posting being like, hey, guys, I have an amazing offer for you.

1:19:39this incredible opportunity. Like, that's where we're at. Oh, boy. This is a wild topic. It is a wild topic. I'm delighted you wrote this book. And it is crazy how little existed on this topic as you endeavored it. I feel like it's five books because there's so many little rabbit holes to go down. And I hope people write more books on this because I feel like I scratched the surface. We give a very thorough history of MLMs, but your book is just full of personal stories that are really, really compelling and heartbreaking. And of course, I went to the convention and saw this in person and spoke to a corporate employee.

1:20:15This was the Mary Kay convention. She said, we don't track what people are selling. We only track what they're buying. It's very clear that this is the way that this is set up. And I just think more people should know that. Yeah. Oh, I want to leave everyone on this. In a different interview, the interviewer asked you, what would you recommend people do when they're getting pitched these? And it may be a little bit counterintuitive, but your advice is you're doing them the best favor by not buying it now. You're accelerating. Please elaborate. I'm not going to botch. When people humor their sister or friend and buy one of these products, they think they're helping them out.

1:20:54But you're just prolonging their involvement. Because if you're in the A-list, once they get through you and then the B-list and the C, they're going to just run out and they're going to recruit and maybe stay longer or buy more. Because, of course, what's documented in the book is also people just buy. So even if you can't recruit, you'll buy for somebody and just put it on your credit card if they can't afford it just to get the reward. Exactly. Keep your place in the downline. And so contributing at all is keeping that hope alive. I think the faster somebody sees the reality, the faster they will get out.

1:21:24Direct and obvious parallels. You shouldn't loan someone 30 bucks to get high again. You want to try to accelerate them having to confront that. Exactly. It's all gamified. And I think that that impulse has been increased in all of us to respond to a gamified environment. So we're all even more vulnerable to this idea that we're going to get ahead. And so stop it at the pass and just don't buy it. Yeah. Well, Bridget, this has been incredibly interesting. Everyone should check out Little Bosses Everywhere, How the Pyramid Scheme Shaped America. It's kind of like a glimpse of an aspect of our country that is very much fractal of our whole setup.

1:21:59It's got larger implications than even MLMs. So thank you so much. This has been a blast. Thank you. Always take a leave D or whatever one you took before interviews. You were on Clare D. Speed works for me, I guess. Always be on Clare and M.D. All right. Be well.

1:22:17Hi there, this is Hermium Hermium If you like that, you're gonna love the fact check Miss Monica Is there places you wouldn't wear that shirt? Be honest There's nowhere I wouldn't wear There's nowhere I wouldn't wear this shirt A funeral A wedding A christening No, I'd wear it to a christening I would wear it to a wedding with a big ball gown skirt. Oh, and a Rolling Stones t-shirt? Yeah, and in a funeral, I'd wear it under a black... Blazer? Blazer and black pants. Okay. But this person who's passed really appreciates the Stones. That was their favorite band. That's a high percentage chance to take.

1:23:08I have bad news to share with you. What? I don't know what the solution is. I don't know if I have to move and put the house up for sale or order another engine. But I had made a promise to my family that they would not be out on the lake and come across anyone with a faster pontoon boat. And that I can't say that anymore in good conscience. You know, was exploring, saw someone with a huge yard, right? I'm like, oh, my God, that person has 30 acres on the lake. Like the house was astronomical. So we're just snooping around the shore and looking at this impossible piece of property. And how do they mow it?

1:23:50You know, those are the kind of questions you ask on a boat. Like, how are they mowing that? That looks steep on the side. I'd like to somehow be out here when they're mowing it next time. All that to say, we come around the, they're on this huge peninsula. And we come around the side to where we see where their boats are at. And oh my God, there it was. 25-foot pontoon boat. I have one 400-horsepower V10. This had two 450-horsepower outboards. 900 horsepower compared to my 400. So I don't know what my move is. I don't know if I should sabotage his boat, ask him to move, sell our house. order.

1:24:34I told Aaron I was going to order a 501 horsepower engine for one side so that I have one horsepower more than that man or woman. I shouldn't assume it's a man. You got to get off the treadmill, man. Yeah, I can't be number one. We can't all be number one. We can't all be the best. He's the best. And that's that. Okay. Minimally, I'd like to put a small tracker on the boat so that I know if he or she is out on the lake because I would like to avoid being out there at any point that they're out there. Okay. Okay? I don't understand, but I hear you and I respect your words. Okay, when I come visit, can we watch What Lies Beneath and really get in the lake mood?

1:25:24Oh, for sure. We could do, we should really think about all the lake movies. We could do On Golden Pond, I guess. That's what's supposed to be good. That feels boring. It sounds like a homework, doesn't it? On the waterfront. Yeah, I don't want to do that. Yeah, On the Waterfront, not like more longshoremen. You know I'm against that movie. So just What Lies Beneath, I guess? Sure. Yeah. All right. Or isn't in, I don't think I've seen Sleeping with the Enemy, but doesn't she like learn how to swim? Oh, to escape him? Yeah, she's secretly, like, learning how to swim. Is that Julia Roberts? Yeah.

1:26:06And she moves to, like, a southern town, right? I don't know, but I think we need to watch that. I'll watch it. Have you heard about the dock on the poop boat? Like, a cruise where everyone pooped everywhere? Shitwreck or something? I keep seeing it pop up on new releases on Netflix. You haven't watched it? Yeah, I have not watched it because it feels like how dare I spend my time, my precious time watching a disaster, some people pooping everywhere. Yeah, I watched the trailer in there in a very functional cruise ship pulls up alongside of them to like, I guess, ferry on some supplies. And the other cruise ship is like blasting music and partying.

1:26:53They're having fun. They're on a cruise. and the other cruise is there's no toilets and they're all staring at the partying boat and they're not happy that they're partying. And then I thought, well, what should they do? Be miserable because you're miserable. They should party. But people don't like that. Also, what happened? Were they stuck out there? Like, why were they stuck? Yeah, I think there was just like a lot of mechanical failures all at once. Yeah. I guess I should watch it. Let's both aim to watch it or you can watch it when you come. Oh, yeah. Okay, let's add that to it. Oh, that's a water.

1:27:23The kids are intrigued because of the poop that's got their interest peaked. Yeah. Yeah, obviously. I have a question for you. About my neighbors? No. Okay. Two questions in a similar category. Do you say, when you hear the phrase, it's all downhill from here. Yeah. What does it mean to you? Well, it's interesting. I think we have talked about it. It sounds good. And also bad. It's a very confusing saying. So how would you use it? Well, it's all downhill from here is positive. It's all downhill is bad. Oh, I see. Okay. Isn't that interesting? Like from here means we've peaked. We're at the peak and we're going to get to coast down.

1:28:11Uh-huh. But it's going to be all downhill. Sounds like things are going to get worse. Right. And in some ways, even if you say it's all downhill from here, it still could be worse. Cause it's like, you're at the top of the mat. You're at the top. And so it's all downhill from here. Everyone wants to be at the top, but I like a valley. I like a valley a lot. I think I'm in the Ohio river Valley or the Tennessee Valley. I like it. Yeah. But then you have, you're in the valley, but you have to get, then you have to climb to the top to get to the next. No, I'm all done. I don't have to climb to the top anymore.

1:28:50Oh, you just live in the valley. That's what's like, that's the transition in life I'm at. There's no more peaks, just valley living. I think I use it negatively. I definitely, I know I do. I've never said it's all downhill from here in a positive way. Right. Like, oh, it was all downhill from there. It was all downhill from there. And it was bad. And I say it like, oh. Okay. Back to my neighbors who you wanted to know about. They're so friendly. And we have been delivered two pies, just like you would expect from the South. They delivered two completely delicious warm peach pies. Wow, that's a ding, ding, ding.

1:29:37I made a peach galette yesterday. What's a galette? Freeform pie. We've already discussed this. You refuse to commit it to memory. The inside is a little open, but there's crusts on the sides. That sounds nice. You made another one of those yesterday? I did. I'm going to serve it tonight for Mahjong. Oh, are you hosting or attending? Hosting. And actually, when we were on the trip, I got a real BMI bonnet for Mahjong. I forgot it. Okay. I forgot my set. And I was really looking forward to playing it on the trip with people. Yeah. And so I got really upset. And I was like, we got it. We have to find Mahjong.

1:30:13You can't find it. Like if you. It's not just for sale. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was calling all these antique stores to see if they had any mahjong sets. Did you look on Amazon? Because there's a lot of vintage stuff there. I did, but it wouldn't deliver by then. Okay. By the time we left. It wasn't like next day delivery. So I call all these antique stores. No one has it, but they're all so friendly. They're like, sorry, babe. Yeah. And then we go on Facebook Marketplace. Never been on it before. Okay? Yeah. But we go on. There's somebody there in Palm Springs with a Mahjong set that we could get.

1:30:52Yeah. But we didn't want to go drive to get it, right? So we were going to send an Uber to get it and bring it to us. I would have been most excited about going to the person's house and seeing who's selling the Mahjong. Well, we were just having too much money. You were having too much. Okay. So this created a dilemma, another dilemma like downhill from here, where the lady who was selling it was like, okay, you need to zelle me before I put it in the Uber. Right. And we were like, no, we're not zelling until we have it. Oh, wow. And I understand both points of view. Sure. Yeah, yeah. Because I get, she's like, I can't just put it in an Uber and not have money.

1:31:38Yeah. Yeah, but then for us, same situation. Right. So what'd you do? We didn't follow up. Oh, okay. Okay. And at that point, they must have thought, well, yeah, they were trying to scam us out of our Mahjong. Yeah. But that's pretty funny to assume someone would send an Uber to steal a Mahjong. How much was the Mahjong set? Are they more than I think? I mean, my current one is like$400. Whoa, really? Yeah. Yeah, it's expensive. How would they want on Marketplace? I mean, this one wasn't. I think it was cheaper. I think it was in the like between$1 and$200 range. Okay. I'm just killing a fly or attempting to.

1:32:22I don't have enough rag. You see what little bit of rag I'm working with? That's not really enough to kill. Yeah, that looks like Hermes. It's to clean my glasses, not to kill flies. Anyway, so that was a big dilemma, which led to no mahjong. And so I'm playing tonight and there will be a peach galette. Oh, lovely. And does it get better or worse in the fridge over the night? This is the big question. I'm scared it's going to be bad. So I also have another pie crust in the wings waiting in case I need to make that tonight. Did you eat the pie that the neighbors brought? Yes. It was delicious. The pies were so fresh.

1:32:59I mean, the peaches were so fresh. Listen, you are shaking your head no. And we are on video. Well, I ain't around it like Jess. I ate the peaches. I couldn't have the other stuff, but I ate around it. And the peach. Okay. And she seemed fine with that. Oh, she came over and watched you eat it? No, the pie. Yeah, the pie lady watched you eat it? No, no, no, just the pie felt fine with how I ate around it. Okay. Okay. Listen, just so you know, I probably shouldn't break this to you. Although maybe you're allowed to have it. Those peaches probably had cornstarch. Not these ones. These were so fresh.

1:33:38Yeah, they did. No, that's how you make it. Trust me, I've made two in the past like two weeks. Okay, do you remember we just had a chef on? Yes, Curtis Duffy. Yes, Curtis Duffy, the brilliant chef. And he talked about that he would have his staff make him Chocno Bakes. Yes. So I have been talking about that out loud and saying how bad I wanted Chocno Bakes with almond butter. Oh. And Kristen made them. Oh. And here's the shocker. They're better even with almond butter. I was expecting to not have the thing from my childhood that I craved so much. No, it's even better with almond butter. You should really look into making some Chocnoe bakes with almond butter.

1:34:17You wouldn't believe what a hit they are. I don't think I've had a Chocnoe bake. Oh, well, I bet you'll have some when you visit here because I got a hunch these are going to be on high rotation. My diet has gone in the toilet now that I'm in the South. I think a lot of people could have predicted that. Sure. But yes, I've been on a real sweets train. We got the peach pie I ate around. Then we got the chocolate. Right, that you barely ate. I ate the whole thing. Ate the ass of. And then. Okay. And then I've had Dairy Queen. There's a Dairy Queen in town. And then there's a really cute new custard shop.

1:34:53Frozen Custard. Called? Oh, it's got a name like Jimmy's or something. I don't know. It's very popular. It's not with a G? Maybe. Oh, it's new. It's brand new. There's a frozen custard place that starts with a G in the south that's good. Well, this could be it. This appears to be a chain, but it's brand spanking new. And there is, that's another fun thing, Monica. Lying around the, out the door, you know, I don't know how long the line was. Maybe 50 feet, 60 feet. There's a good 45 people in it. And I pulled up, normally in LA that would drive me nuts, right? I'd be like, oh, I'm not going. I'm not going to wait in line for an hour.

1:35:31and I was like, oh, I'm excited to wait in line. And it was so fun. And I just people watch and everyone was out to have an ice cream. So everyone was in a good mood. It's kind of like being at Disneyland. Remember when we took David to Disneyland? I'm like, where else can you go where people decided they're going to have a great day? Well, that's what was happening at this place. And I realized I loved hanging in line and Delta did too. We both had a really good time. Okay, well, this is the opposite of what we were talking about with In-N-Out where I said, yeah, part of it is the line. That's part of it.

1:36:00You're right. And you said no. You're right. And now here we are. I know. And now we have a different circumstance and I'm seemingly having the opposite opinion. Very similar circumstance, but opposite opinion. You're right. Just saying. There's no difference. Other than people that go to In-N-Out are often in a great mood, but they're often also just there because they're hungry. Maybe they're even cranky because they're hungry. This is. I'm going to get In-N-Out today. We've already eaten and now we're going to get dessert. And it's like what we're doing tonight and we're outside. I understand.

1:36:36I love it. I do. I love, I love a ice cream, a summer ice cream moment. I love a summer ice cream moment. Do you guys have Brewster's there? Oh, I haven't seen one, but I saw Zaxby's, your mom's restaurant. Doesn't your mom love Zaxby's? No, that's mine. I love Zaxby's. Oh, we have one. I love Zaxby's. Chicken? It is Southern. Fried chicken. But what's your mom loves? What's your mom's cafeteria? I was talking about it yesterday. I was looking at Zaxby's. Delta said, is that a such and such? And I said, no, I think it's a cafeteria. And then I think my father-in-law said, I think it's chicken.

1:37:13And there's a big, big picture of a chicken on it. Chicken on it. Yeah. And it's not a cafeteria. It's not a cafeteria. I'm thinking that because of Nermy. And that's why. It is a drive. It's a fast food, Zaxby's is. But the cafeteria, you bring up Lubbies or something. But that's not what she, we don't have that there. We don't have Lubbies. She just likes all the cafeteria. She just would love Lubbies or Lubbies. She would love it, yes. Maybe Lubbies even more than Lubbies. No. Oh, okay. You don't know how wild Nermie is. She's postmenopausal. Didn't you read on all fours? I did. She was having no problem.

1:37:54Right? Getting creative. It was perimenopause. Oh. Okay. That's the horny section? I don't want to think about any of that. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:38:21Anywho, okay, I have one more word riddle for you. Oh, great. Do you say I'm going to turn the air down or I'm going to turn the air up? Wow. I could definitely see where that's ripe for confusion. I would say I'm going to turn the air down a bit. Oof. Yeah. Turn the air on. Turn the air up. I would say both and they shouldn't work. What would you say? I think I say turn it down. Meaning you want it colder? We turn the air down? Or you want it warmer? Meaning I want it colder. Oh, no, no. If I'm in the car, it's like, oh, turn the air up. Yeah, turn it up. But in the car, huh, that's tricky, though, because in the car, often the knob, you are turning it up.

1:39:07The fan speed, yeah. The fan speed, yeah. The fan speed's going up, but the temperature's going down. Correct. That's why it's inherently conflicting. That's why this is a great riddle. So maybe just we could clean it up by going, make the air colder, make the air hotter. Yeah, but that doesn't have the same ring to it. That's true. We also like nuance and trying to guess. It's fun to not really know what anyone's talking about. We love riddles. Yeah. Reading through the lines, mixed messages. Reading between the lines. A lot of that. I said reading through the lines. I know. I don't think that's the same.

1:39:41Same thing. Yeah, same thing, though. No, this is another riddle. What do you say? Between or through? Betwixt. Do you think if we were in England, we'd say reading betwixt the lines? I do. Again, just to remind you, I've wanted to start using waltz, but I just can't figure it out. I love waltz. You mean waltz? Yeah, the English always say waltz. I was reading waltz at the pool. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. But when I try to say it, it doesn't work. Okay. I want you to try to say it before the end of this episode. Just in it. I'll do it waltz. We're conversing. Not right now. That worked out pretty good, though.

1:40:19That was too fast. Okay. It's supposed to be a pop out. What are you watching? What's your summer watch? I'm struggling. You are. I'm struggling. Oh, you know what's fun though? So the New York Times had a list that they created of the hundred best movies. Hundred best. See, I don't love it, but okay. Hundred best movies. There you go. Hundred. Oh, I do love it. No, I do. I know, but I do love it because it's ranked. So there is a number one. 100 best movies of the 21st century So since 2000 And then It was also like you submitted yours And your top 10 Which was a fun game Do you want to hear what mine were?

1:41:06Yes, I would love to Mine are Eternal Sunshine Love it Get Out Oh, yeah Eternal Sunshine Get Out The Social Network, Amelie, Ocean's Eleven, Interstellar, Moneyball, Royal Tenenbaums, The Worst Person in the World, Past Lives. Okay, so I saw your list and I thought you were reposting the list because that list to me is what I thought the recently published best of list is. But that was your list. That's my list. Oh, wow. I was like, this is a good list and it's eclectic. It's not what I would expect from a poll of a magazine. So now I'm curious what the real list is because I thought that was the real.

1:41:53Yeah, you tricked me. Do you want me to read it? The real list? Yeah. Just top 10. I don't want to hear a hundred titles. Dang, this happened at dinner in Palm Springs. I was excited to read the whole list and they made me, they didn't want that. Yeah, no one wants to hear a hundred items out loud. I do. No one wants to go even past 30, Like 20 would be the limit, I think. Oh, my God. You guys, I love lists. They let me start at 50 and everyone was really into it once I started. At 50. Number 100 is super bad. Just going to tell you that. Now, remember, this is only from 2000. That's why Goodwill Hunting wasn't on mine.

1:42:3725 years. Was Bottle Rocket 2000 or newer? I'll look that out on my own. I don't want you to leave that page. 96. Okay. So I'm, I excuse that that wasn't on your list then. I do love that movie, but I would still pick Royal Tenenbaums. And you'd pick both. You'd pick that over Rushmore as well. Yeah. Royal Tenenbaums is my favorite Wes Anderson movie. Okay. And very core to me. Like one that I watched so many times that I was like so moved by. I got to rewatch it. I love it, but I definitely like Rushmore and Bottle Rocket more. Yeah. I love Rushmore. Yeah. I could rewatch Rushmore. Is there a lake in it?

1:43:26Can we watch it during our lake movies? No, there's no lake. There's swimming just in the swimming pool. Yeah, the pool. That's where Bill Murray's watching his kids and he hates them, his boys. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, ready. Number 10, The Social Network. Number nine, Spirited Away. That's a horse movie? No, no, no, no. You're thinking of... Spirit of Cameroon? No, you're thinking of that TV show that the kids used to watch. Spirit of Cameroon, yeah. Cimarron. No, it's just called like Spirit. I think Spirit of Cimarron, yeah. Okay. Let's see. Now, this is an animated... Is there a cartoon called Spirit of Cimarron?

1:44:07It's just called Spirit. And it's animated? What's the one on your list? Okay, Spirited Away is an animated movie. It's a hand-drawn fairy tale of adolescence. Alice in Wonderland of our age. Unforgettable characters keep spilling out of abandoned magical bathhouse. I have heard of this. It's like on a lot of people's lists. The answer to my question is yes. There is a well-known animated feature called Spirit, Stallion of the Cimarron, C-I-M-A-R-R-O-N. But is that, remember the show they used to watch? and there was a really catchy theme song. That was it. That was Spirit. I thought this says feature.

1:44:47Yes. So that was in 2002 and then they made a TV show. Okay. That makes sense. Oh, here you go. Follow-ups in the franchise. Spirit Riding Free, 2017 to 2020. Spirit Untamed, 2021. I remember when we were in Turks and Caicos, the kids were watching Spirit and that theme song was really in my head. Running wild, I'm running free Yeah, something like that Okay, number eight is Get Out Okay Number seven, Eternal Sunshine So a similar list Number six, No Country for Old Men Okay Number five, Moonlight Number four, In the Mood for Love I have not seen it, but I really want to see it What is that? It's set in Hong Kong, and it's like a love story It was in 2001 It's on.

1:45:41It's supposed to be great. I really want to see it. Number three, there will be blood. Great. Love it. Number two. Oh, my God. Sorry. I got it. I'm under control now.

1:45:57Number two, Mulholland Drive. Another one I have not seen but would love to see. Great. Did you hear me? Yeah. Mulholland Drive. Another one you haven't seen what you'd love to see. I could rewatch that. I love that. Oh, great. Is there a lake? Can't remember. Okay. Number one, Parasite. Love it. Parasite is an incredible movie. I like that at number one. That's strong number one. All right. I'm trying to find you your song. Here we go.

1:46:38Is this it? Yeah.

1:46:48Here we go, Monica.

1:46:56Yes. I'm ready.

1:47:13I'm not going to lie. Great song. I just got full body goosebumps.

1:47:22It is a good song. It's really good. I'm riding free. Oh, wow. Boy, Turks and Caicos, what a fun trip that was. What a fun trip. We got in a huge fight, but it was still so fun. I didn't remember that part, but you did. You didn't? Wow. I do. I do. It's it's really seared. Let's not unpack it. Because of this list, I have decided I want to go through a bunch of these and watch ones that I haven't seen that are intriguing to me. So I did watch Zodiac. I had never seen that. Oh, yeah. That's Fincher. His least known movie. And Downey, Robert Downey. Downey, Jake G. Jake G's. JG um yeah it was great oh Mark Ruffalo oh yeah yeah Anthony Edwards ER ding ding ding AIDS yeah I know I was confused because for some reason in my head when I started the movie I thought JG was the villain like I was like oh that's that movie where Jake Gyllenhaal is the killer JGers so I'm watching it yeah JGers and I'm watching it for so long I'm like wow wow, he ends up being the killer?

1:48:37That's so wild. And then, of course, I was wrong. He wasn't, no. He was a journalist, right? He was a cartoonist, actually. Oh, yes. And then he got obsessed with the case. That can happen to people. They get bit by a case. It's probably going to happen to me before I'm dead. I'm going to get obsessed with a case and solve it. What case are you going to try to solve? A murder? Probably like a missing motorcycle. Yeah, that sounds right. the Lord's work. Yeah. So I wanted to talk to you about shopping before we parted today. All right. Let's hear it. Because I normally, obviously, I can't relate at all to you with the shopping.

1:49:21Yeah. But because I have a garage here and I don't have anything I had in L.A., I've been going to Lowe's and Home Depot. And I went with Aaron. Well, I went on that great trip with the girls, I think I told you. And I gave them half the list. and they were on fire. I couldn't believe how good they were. Then I went back with Aaron day one when he was here and I had to get a lot of stuff. Monica, trash cans, brooms, power washer, you know, all this stuff. Sure. And I got to tell you, it was so fun. You're right. It was so fun. When it's a place like Home Depot and I like, every aisle has something I know I need, but I just need to go look because I've forgotten.

1:50:02I get it. Yeah. And Aaron and I, when we left, I was like, that's among the most fun times I've ever had with you. And he's like, I completely agree. I would love to come back and just do three more hours of shopping. And we decided we should have a business where people just give us their list at Home Depot or Lowe's and we go get it. Because we like so much shopping there. That's called Instacart. We did figure that out as well afterwards. But ours will be different. Or DoorDash. Ours will be, we don't charge you, but it'll probably be less convenient. Why will it be less convenient? Because we don't have an app and all the sophisticated stuff.

1:50:40So you'll have to write your list out and then probably take a picture of it. Oh, I think you can just sign up for Instacart like you did for the other ride. Not personalized. The other food delivery. Not personalized enough for me. I want to have a relationship with the people I shop for. Cool. And I play this game with the cashier each time I say, what's the over under on this order? because they're good at it. They should be good at it. They ring up all day long. And then they guess. And then I make Aaron guess and the girls guess. And I guess. And we all play by Price is Right rules, which is even if someone's a dollar over, they lost.

1:51:20Oh. Yeah. Those rules are tricky. The bill could be$1 ,500. Someone could have guessed it's$600. And someone guessed$1 ,501. And$600 wins. Those are the rules. That's so ridiculous. It's pretty good rules, though, for prices right. It's horrible rules. This happened during cornhole, too. Cornhole's the same thing. If you get over 21, you go back to 11. Ooh, that's harsh. That happened a lot during Palm Springs. Not to me, because I never really got over 21. Sure. But to a lot of other people, and I was so upset on their behalf. Charlie and Ryan. Yeah, and Jess and Matt. Okay. And Anna. Anna's really good at - So everyone but you.

1:52:05I was most improved. Do you have a hangar for it? Like, are you going to want to play in Nashville? Like, do you crave it now? I love cornhole. I love cornhole. I've always loved it. Oh, my God. This is just like when - Did I already tell this story? I was shopping, ding, ding, ding, with Jess, and we were at a vintage store, and I got a sweatshirt that says Bud Light on it. And it's so cute. And I was checking out and Jess said in front of the lady who was ringing me up, he said, you've never even drank a Bud Light in your life. He outed you. It's not an out. That's a lie. I got so mad. He made me look like an idiot in front of this lady.

1:52:53Okay. And I was like, You don't, you didn't know me in college. How dare you? Yeah. Where do you get off? Where do you get the nerve? Where exactly? And I used to drink a ton of Bud Light. How much? Six at a time? Well, we used to play all kinds of games. Waterfall, King's Pen or something. I forget what that's called. You know, and also that thing where you drink. Oh, beer pong, a ton, flip cup, all the games. I never played these drinking games. I never got them. It's like I didn't need someone to tell me to drink more. No, it was just it's just fun. Games are fun, Dad. Yeah, I should play more drinking games.

1:53:33Games are so fun. But anyway, so Cornhole is like that. Like, I know I just sensed from you that you were like, oh, you just you're just learning how to play. Interesting. And I I used to play. I was a different girl in college. Oh, yeah. I would have liked to meet that version. That'd be fun. You still can. Charlie wants to go to a Georgia game, and I'm going to arrange it. I want us all to go. I would love that. That would be so fun. You know. But also, I'd like to time travel and meet you in Athens and see this version, the carefree college kid who was planning her next booty bump. Oh, God.

1:54:13Carefree is interesting. That wasn't in the mix. Carefree. I wasn't carefree. I actually had, I had, like, you know, really bad anxiety, but I had fun. Yeah. You drank through it. I sure did. Yeah. What a gift. So when are you going to go shopping again today? It's possible. You know, I did have a day here. Did I already bore you with it where I did the most amount of things I've ever done in a day? No. I couldn't believe this day. I woke up. I was meditating at 530. Did I tell you I put up 32 pallets on the marshy ground leading to the boat deck because it was mud. By the time you got to the boat, you were covered in mud.

1:54:54And then coming back, you'd get covered in mud. So I took 32 pallets from the behind Lowe's and Home Depot. And I laid them all out and I've made a boardwalk. And then I didn't want that to stick out so much. So then I ordered grass paint that you pump up in a big plastic jug and spray. So I spray painted 32 two pallets green to match the grass. I took the trash to the dumpster. I went to Home Depot. I dropped my car off to get tires. I mopped my entire barn, which I don't think you can imagine what a big project that is mopping that entire barn. But I mopped the whole thing in the gym. then I got salt licks in feeders for the deer I dropped my roadmaster off to get new mufflers at Midas and this is the craziest one at 3 40 p.m.

1:55:56I'd already had this day where I'd done all this stuff since 5 30 at 3 40 p.m. I said to Kristen I'm 35 minutes away from the trailer place They close at five. And then another 25 minutes past there is the golf cart place. And I'm leaving my house at 340 in Mount Juliet. I left thinking I give this a 40 % chance I succeed at this. I walked into the trailer place and I said, hi, do you want to set a world record for fastest trailer sold? And she goes, yeah, let's do it. I was driving out of the parking lot with a new flatbed trailer within 10 minutes with the title signed. Wow Made it to the golf cart place Bought a golf cart Had it loaded on the trailer Was pulling out of the golf cart place 12 minutes to 5 p.m.

1:56:42Wow I'm telling you I felt like a freaking hero, Monica What a day That's a lot That's a lot I think just mopping the barn Would have been enough For a victorious day for me But then I added all that other stuff I just bored you with I mean, spray painting 32 pallet I do I love a to-do list. I had all these things written and I just kept going, shit, it's time to pull out that to-do list and tackle something else. Yeah. You love a list. I do. And I feel as accomplished as if I work, you know? Right. That kind of list feels like filming all day or something. I feel very accomplished. Yeah. Yeah.

1:57:26Nice. Yeah. Do you think I'll run out of stuff to do? No. Because you can always add stuff. You can add like swam for 10 minutes. Like you can always add stuff that's actually just regs. And how do you feel about that? So I ethically have a dilemma. So some of those items were added after I did them to my list. Do you do that? You have a list and then you pick up some stray things and then you add it to the list to feel proud of yourself. You do do it. Okay. It feels a little grimy when I do it, but I do it. I actually don't do lists like that unless it's truly like I need to keep track of what I'm going to have to do tomorrow.

1:58:03When I did make lists, I would add stuff like that. And then I did. Yeah, I was like, I don't like any of this. All I'm doing is trying to prove to myself that I've done stuff. Yes. And that started to feel silly. So I don't really list anymore. But, yeah, so if you're a list guy or a list girl, you're adding stuff last minute. Yeah. You're adding stuff post-accomplishment. Yeah, you want to look at that list at the end of the day and go, my God, you really did it. And then you want to read it on a podcast. And then you want to read it out loud to as many people who will listen. Yeah, exactly.

1:58:41Yeah. So I want you to be impressed with my industriousness. Of course. So you'll like me. Because that's what I care about. That's right. And how good of a driver I am. Yep. All right. Should we do some facts? Let's. This is for Bridget. Bridget and MLMs. Oh, my God. I love this one. Yeah, me too. So informative. So interesting. I mean, the fact that some of those stats that we learned, like that 99 percent of people lose money. The notion, I mean, I think I said it in the interview, but anything where 99 % of the time you're going to lose, no one does. I know. Okay, the strange angel JPL guy is Jack Parsons.

1:59:34Yeah, Jack Parsons. He's a maniac. Yep. He co-founded the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and was deeply involved in cult practices. Yes. Okay. Also, Bridget worked at Vogue and there was big news. I asked her if she reported to Anna. Anna Wintour is stepping down as editor in chief of Vogue. It's a huge deal in the fashion world. Ooh. Yeah. How do you feel about it? How are you taking that news? Can't be great. It's hard to take in. I'm just, it's just the end of an era. Sure. Now, I looked up spending by gender. I just confirmed that women spend more than men, which they do tend to. I think they say that they are responsible for like 80 % of the domestic purchasing.

2:00:33Like they're who advertisers are advertising to. Women tend to spend more than men, particularly in terms of total consumer spending and influencing purchasing decisions. While men may spend more per transaction, women's overall spending and influence on purchases are higher. Women are estimated to control or influence 85 percent of consumer spending. Oh, even higher than I just guessed. That so holds true because I just, you know, I don't have anything in Nashville that I need, i.e. a workbench, powered screw guns, trash bags, mops. So I went to Home Depot in Hermitage with the girls and I had the craziest list and I deployed them each with their own shopping cart to go grab stuff as I was grabbing stuff.

2:01:29And yeah, so I never go to a store, but when I go to a store, buckle the fuck up, you know. Yeah, you're really going for it. I really spent a couple bucks over at Home Depot. Well, also because you don't like shopping, so you kind of have to get it all out of the way. I want to go one time to Home Depot for the rest of my life, which I already am home now and I forgot things. Whereas I like to just go, I'll just, not Home Depot, but I like to just pop in, not even get anything. My dad was like you. And in fact, when I was at Home Depot with the girls, I said, is this so annoying? And they're like, no, this is super fun.

2:02:15And I'm like, oh, my God, my dad would want to go to Ace Hardware on Sundays. And I'd walk with him as he stared at every fucking product. I'm like, why are we in paint aisle? You're not intending on painting anything. He just wanted to see every product in the store, even if he's just going to get screws or something. And it was maddening. Of course. What if he sees something he might want or get an inspiration? He did. This does remind me of one. I don't know why. This is one of the most like distinct memories I have of my father. I know I've told you this before, but we went to A &P grocery store and I had to be fucked.

2:02:55We had a dog. So we only had a dog for a couple of years when I was maybe nine or something. And we go into AMP, AMP, we get all the groceries. And then we're on our way out and they've stacked all the dog food in like the breezeway. You know, in Michigan, there's always these buffers. You walk in one door because of the cold and then there's another. And then this breezeway, my dad like threw a bag of dog food on the cart. I don't even know if I clocked it so much, but we get all the way to the car and my dad goes, you know what? When you steal things, things get stolen from you. What goes around comes around.

2:03:33And he walked all the way back in the store and he paid for the dog food, but he was, he was stealing dog food with me there for about two minutes till we got to the car. But I guess more than I was disappointed that he stole, I was impressed that he stole and And then pivoted and was like honest about it. Yeah, he couldn't really steal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was a very like it's a weird mix of like he's demonstrated a lot of integrity, even though he had just stolen a bag of dog food in front of me. It's so memorable. Yeah. Did Ashok ever steal shit and then rethink it? No, God, no. Listen to me.

2:04:17Immigrants don't have the luxury of stealing. You're right. Too scared. You're right. You're right. Everyone already thinks they're stealing. Oh, exactly. Yeah. Everyone's already looking at them with like, you know, hawk eyes. Do you pay for that? I think that every time I see a non-white with a grocery store, with a grocery cart, I go, did you pay for that? Did you even pay for that? or like they think if they're like Indian they think like oh they don't speak they don't even know that they're supposed to pay like they think like they live in a like third world country and they don't understand paying in America yeah because America is so much bounty they just think it's all for free by the way do you think non-white sounds implicitly racist I do non-white yeah like when you go like there's some non-whites.

2:05:11Doesn't that sound very scary? To me, yes. Okay, you know my stance on this. I don't like, and a lot of people have no issue with this, but I don't like taking the color, pluralizing it, and then making it the group of people. I'm not for that. Sure, sure. Like the browns, the whites, the blacks. I'm not for that. So yeah, non-whites would apply. Oh, boy. Anyway. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. Bambi literally just sprinted through the backyard with rhombus following her. Oh. Aw. You can't imagine anything cuter than two little tiny, tiny, tiny deer sprinting. Oh, my God. Be careful with your cars. Oh, I know.

2:06:01I was out for a ride on my electric motorcycle, and I came into the driveway kind of hot, and they were there, and they got so spooked. and I felt so terrible. I'm like, I got to go so slow in my driveway. Yeah, that's it. I mean, she was very factual, obviously. Yeah. So MLMs, wild. Don't participate. Oh, one thing, and I'm sad that we didn't plan ahead, but I wanted to have a friend on this fact check who has lived a big portion of her life sort of involved in an MLM. well not sort of definitely involved I do want to say that this episode makes me nervous because I would hate for anyone involved in one to think that I'm saying they're stupid or anyone involved is stupid because I'm not at all no I I see anyone involved as someone who is industrious and wants to make a living and better their lives and I admire the gumption and the sense of industriousness.

2:07:06And I just hope I want them to find one that'll work for them. But I don't think anyone is stupid for having been involved with one. I 100 % agree. I just do think the system is quite predatory, especially based on all these facts we heard. But that has nothing to do with the type of person. But I wanted her on, but we didn't plan it well. So maybe another time. Okay. Well, that's it. Mmm. I love you. Love you. All right. Bye.

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