Cas Holman (on being playful)

23:04Because increasingly toys are being licensed characters. There's these beloved characters and you can figure out what Spider-Man is going to do today, but it's still Spider-Man. Right. And while you're developing your own identity, what if you could be like exploring identity through the toys you're playing with and not have it already have one based on the story that you were given? Yeah. Which, again, adults wrote. Well, I think this would be a good time to explain. This is in my mind where you're starting to form a more cohesive theory on play in general, which is you start thinking, I'm not designing a toy.

23:38I'm trying to design something that will facilitate play. Yeah, it's not really about the toys necessarily. Just as a designer, I think I like to be kind of formally agnostic. If the goal, and this is also kind of named by function. So there's this candle right here. And I could say, let's design a new candle. I'm like, well, all right, what's the goal of the candle? Is it to light a room? Is it to make it not smell bad? Yeah. Is it decor? So we know that you're really fancy and cool because it's a black candle and it probably smells something like cedar. Right. Maybe some musk in there. Sure.

24:12Pinocchi. Yeah. Wow. Right. So is it a status symbol? So you can think of like, what's the actual function of that candle right now? And so starting from that, instead of starting with the archetypical way that we do that, which would be candle. Right. So if we were to redesign a way to light the room, that might be like, let's put a hole in the ceiling or let's get a bunch of fireflies in here. Yeah. You give a great example. Well, you'll say to kids that I wrote down that I like, which is if you tell kids build a car, we know what they're going to build versus build a way to get to school, which is really fun.

24:44Yeah. Imagine a way to get to school. Then you're going to have dragons and unicorns. Holy systems. Yes. Zip lines. And a river. Yeah. Well, I want to take a lazy river to school. Oh, my God. If you could get in your inner tube. That'd be really fun. You know, they do these design communities and they're mostly kind of vomitous, the concept. Maybe just because no one's done one right. But if the entire way you got through this community was a web of interconnecting lazy rivers and you traveled solely by lazy river. Yeah. I would buy a home in that design community. Yeah. I understand that. Everything would change if we wanted to get coffee on the way.

25:21It'd be docks everywhere. Oh, that's so fun. I'm such a boring adult because I'm like, oh, STDs. Wait, from a river? Yeah, it happens. They get transported through these lazy rivers in colleges. I think men tell their wives they got an STD from the Lazy River, but I don't think that's how they got it. I love that as you're like, yeah, but STDs. At every turn, they'll be like, where should we go on vacation? Well, you know who doesn't have STDs? Galapagos Island. Zero incident rate of STDs. No, but I do think like that very adult-y. But what about the risk and what about whatever? It's so stupid.

26:00And maybe it's like the hierarchy of risk. There's a risk every time you leave the house, of course. There's risk if you don't leave the house. Yes. Are you risking physical harm versus mental harm? Yeah. Right? If you don't leave, you're safe. But are you safe? Then you're going to be maybe kind of sad and that's not safe. Exactly. Yes. Okay. So here's where we get to our first little area where I do want to challenge a little bit. it. So what I totally love about your approach and what I think is so consistent with all of us as humans is in the best case scenario, we adopt theories and we adopt work strategies to kind of address the needs that weren't not met for us as kids or issues we had personally.

26:44And I think our work ends up reflecting a bit of just who we are. So what you scream and what I like is I'm not a right angle. And your work is very much like, don't give kids instructions on how to build this Lego set. And I think that's very valid. And what I would want is for there to be that as an option. But also there are future engineers, there are autistic kids, there are all these other kids that are like, no, they're fucking right angles. So the only thing I worry about is like when When anyone shows up with any, and this goes into parenting strategies, classroom strategies, all of it, I fear, attempts to unify us and we're ununifiable and we're so different.

27:25So then the challenge to me becomes in a classroom, on a playground. So Monica loves following directions and she loves, she said, how do I win this thing? Right. It was like a joke and it wasn't a joke. It wasn't. And that's what satiates her. And that's what really makes her feel safe. And then I'm more like you. I'm like, fuck that boring way. Someone else already did it that way, so I don't want to do it that way. So do you have an appreciation for the other versions or just a complete distaste for them all? No, absolutely. And thank you. That's kind of the point that I get into in the book is that there's a misconception that free play means no ruse at all.

27:59Part of what happens when we are encouraged or allowed to free play as children means that we are in touch with what do I need right now? What do I want to do right now? And then we're skilled in going to find it. And one of the things, and I do this a lot as a design professor, is help people find their own constraints. I love constraints. Again, the idea with open-endedness is like no constraints. It's like, well, you start with no constraints and then you find your own based on what you need. Or if anything's an option, then everything's an option, which is totally overwhelming and absolutely paralyzing, right?

28:31So the thing about unstructured play for kids and open-ended play for kids is they learn how to find and make their own structure. And also with Rigamajig, I talk about it as being open-ended and unstructured, but it's not really. The wood, the materials, nuts and bolts, those are constraints. Yes. Right. Those create structure. You don't need instructions. I mean, they could be the constraints, but with the case of Rigamajig or GMO, the materiality of it as an object has constraints and structure built in. And especially when there's a system, Rigamajig is a building system. So in figuring out what the system is, you kind of start building something.

29:04And then before you know it, you have the beginning of a card or a monster or like a whirly gig. Rigamajig. Can you see that in your mind? Have you ever seen Rigamajig? No. Should we open it? Well, no, it's huge. Rigamajig. No, you have a small one. Oh, I have a small one. That's Rigamajig Jr. But you can tell from this hieroglyphic on the side. So unlike conventional erector sets or these other things, there is no obvious thing that these should be assembled. It's not a puzzle. It's not a puzzle. Yeah. It seems like a very random grouping of shapes and sizes, but there's infinite ways to assemble these.

29:40This is what's in the High Line in New York. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. This message is brought to you by Apple Pay. Dax, can you believe it's already fall? This year's flown by. I know, right? But fall is my jam. Remember that farmer's market we hit up last weekend? Yes, all those vendors with their yummy apple ciders and the big pumpkins. I love big pumpkins. Artisanal apple cider, don't forget. And the smell of fresh baked goods, heaven. But here's what blew my mind. So many vendors accepted Apple Pay. It was so convenient. I love Apple Pay. Everywhere I saw the contactless symbol, I just double-clicked the side button on my phone to bring up my card.

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31:49Like you could see the remnants of where a bolt was. Oh, cool. Which again is like the imagination. Industrial artifacts. Yeah. Yeah. That's very cool. Those are very successful. They're in classrooms and stuff. And then we, Rigamajig Junior is kind of the home version of that. And the thing again, similar to with the big blue blocks, it's too big for one child to use alone. So they need each other in a way. Oh, I like that. It becomes social. Yeah. When we learn to need each other in play, it's a positive association with help and with collaboration and cooperation. And sharing, credit learning to share.

32:23We made this as opposed to all I made this. Yeah, there's two pulleys. So if you're not using that pulley, can I use the pulley? I got to go ask. We got to share resources. Yeah. Okay, I want to get into the book, but I just want to tell you a personal antidote you didn't ask for. So I work on cars a lot and I also build a lot of things with wood. And for sure, my favorite part of any project is I get to a point where I do not have the part I need. And then I start going like, what do I have in my garage? And I start going through drawers and I'm like, oh, if I put that bolt through there. That to me is the euphoria of building.

32:59So I'm doing two things, right? It's like one is a carburetor has to go together in a certain way and a gasket goes there. But could a Cracker Jacks box be a gasket? The gasket's just cardboard. And that's when I just love it to no end is when I have to improvise and solve it. even within the framework of the thing has to be structurally sound. So I just very much relate to your agenda. My experience of that moment exactly is easy as boring. I could just go and get that gasket, but I'm drawn to, compelled by, and intuitively I want to make this other thing work. I want to see how many rubber bands I can wrap around it instead of go and get the right gasket for this.

33:39Well, there's like a steam building in that for me, which is like, Oh, A, I can't be stopped, even if I don't have the right thing. And flow, right? When you're in the flow of something, to leave to go get that part takes you out of the flow of that you're in it and you've lost track of time. That's also part of what play is. When you lose track of time, you're so immersed in the thing. You're doing it because you love it. It's pleasurable. Okay, so your book is Playful. How play shifts our thinking, inspires connection, and sparks creativity. So when this came through, we get an email of the different experts that are potentially guests.

34:13And the thing we say most on here is playful. We're very attracted to playful people. Oh, nice. I say it all the time. Like, I'm here on this planet to play. I'll have to do some stuff I don't want to, but my primary mission is to play. Amazing. So you define right out of the gates 12 types of play. And we don't have to go through all 12, but I'm wondering if you could tell us about a few of them. And then I will tell you the ones I like so much. Yeah. The ones I define early in the book are play types that I've used and I think are not universally, there's different versions of them, but that are used to understand and observe children's play.

34:48But they aren't called children's play types. They're just kind of play types because play most often is associated with children and the people who work with play are usually working with children. And so I had been using these play types. So things like rough and tumble play, locomotor play, creative play, which is kind of building things, pretend play, which is kind of performing or going into other worlds. We like communication play. And yeah, obviously you all take part in children's play types. That was probably like social play. And one that's listed that I was grateful for is deep play.

35:21Deep play is one that I think really challenges the definition and the idea of play for a lot of people. Right. Because play doesn't always look like big gestures of joy and celebration because in order to play, we kind of have to trust either our environment, ourselves, or the world around us and the people we're with. We become really vulnerable. And so children, if they're in deep play, are touching on things that are something they have to work out. Maybe it's something difficult in their household that's going on and they're trying to, through play, understand it or maybe even heal from it.

35:58Or even we walk around with all this fear. So it's like, I might climb that rock. I'm afraid of that rock. I'm afraid of falling. I'm going to somehow play my way into interacting with this fear. Yeah. And how can you understand or get through your fears if you don't confront them? And it's safest and fun and enjoyable to confront them in play. Yeah. And play in general, we could just broadly agree with like, it's something that has zero purpose. You're in one of the episodes of Abstract on Netflix. You referenced crows finding the lid of a yogurt container and then putting it on top of a snowy roof and then sliding down, snowboarding down, then flying back up.

36:38And it's like, yeah, crows play. There's no point to that. Crows can fly. Yeah, exactly. Like, what? So that's just a novel experience for them. There's been so much science around this, often, unfortunately, that used rats. Some of this science makes me a little bit sad when I think about half of the rats were kind of tortured by being denied anything to play with or having to be alone. While in the other cages, rats had an enriched environment, which was things to play with. They had each other. They had friends. They're fulfilled. The rats that are alone and don't have toys. They love drugs.

37:12They love drugs. Of course they do. Can't keep them away. They're in trauma. They probably neither. They do. They don't have a drive to survive. They don't solve problems well. Eventually, they stop caring. They just don't eat. They don't want to solve the puzzle in order to get the cracker because they don't care. They have no drive to thrive. There's a lot of rat studies around this, which makes that. And then there have been studies that used college students instead of rats. Right. Basically the same thing. So it's a little bit less extreme. And we're not studying the neocortex development in these cases, thankfully.

37:42But similarly, college students, there was one study by Alice Eisen who put students in a room for five minutes with nothing. You're just going to sit in the desk for five minutes. And then in the meantime, another group of students had music and another group of students had music and puzzles. And so those three groups went in and they all did the exact same test in the same way. And the group with nothing did 15 % less well than the group that had music. The group with music universally did 15 % more about problem solving. And then the group that had music and toys did like 40 % better than all of the groups.

38:16These numbers are going to be absolutely wrong. but it was something close and it's in the book. And once I write it down, I'm like, good, now it's there. I can forget it forever. But this is just to say universally, just playing with a toy before you go in to solve a problem made you a better problem solver. Yeah, interesting. So there's just time and time again, we learn ways that play not just helps us have the will to live, but it helps us be more resilient and healthier. And there's all these other physical benefits to even doing play that wasn't necessarily physically engaged. Not to make it so adult, but I guess that's also sexual role play.

38:53There is a lot of figuring out your fears with a safe partner. And that's a really good example of that's a learned taboo. So I start with talking about the children's play types. And then I realized while writing the book that they didn't apply to adults. What's risky for a child isn't risky for an adult. Right. And adults developmentally, we just need something so much different from play. For that, with that as an example, we learn to feel bad about our bodies or feel like we can't be looked at or this is bad and that's good. So with sexual things, especially we can play through something we need extra because it's been so ingrained in us what it's supposed to be or what it's not supposed to be.

39:35In the adult play types, there's kind of misbehavior play. Oh, interesting. Or behavior play in general. Yes. Which you could say all adult play is misbehavior to some extent because we're kind of not supposed to play. It's like intrinsically rejecting adulthood to play. Exactly, which is in itself kind of misbehavior. But with sex, which is I think one of the primary places that adults play, we need the trust of ourselves and each other and releasing judgment. Yeah. In order to kind of then get back in touch with who we might be before we were taught that it's weird and gross and shameful. And forget about it if there's religion involved.

40:10Right. Also, you don't make me all this, but I was just thinking about the correlation between when we transition out of children who are expected to play to adults who have responsibilities and perfectionism and all these other obstacles that prevent play. It also is right at the arrival of drinking, drugs, you know, these other offerings that resemble play initially. And I think they become the replacement for play. I think it's a big part of why that thing is so needed for us. It's a break from the adulthood. You're making decisions you wouldn't normally make. You're hooking up with folks. You probably, you know, there's a lot happening.

40:52And I just think, well, you do wonder if everyone just stayed playing. When someone's newly getting sober and I'm trying to put a positive spin on it, I'll say, the only thing I can tell you that was the reward of it is I did return to 12 years old where I was excited just to walk outside, leave my house and go fuck around in this world. Because I had really just turned that all over to show up with a six pack that does the rest. Right. In the book, I tried to talk about how can we, because booze is also a huge part of adults play, not just that it lubricates play for us, but I looked at and we studied and we tried to figure out this is my co-writer and I, Lydia Dinworth.

41:30She's been on your show. She wrote Friendship. Yeah. And she's a science writer. So she's really good at researching and finding and taking scientific studies and relating them. She and I talked a lot about how do we acknowledge this is an important part of how adults play? And also, how can we take the advantages or what is it about being intoxicated that lets us access play? And how can we get there without it? Yeah, I'm actually in favor of it as one of the options of play. But I think it very easily becomes the primary option of play. Yeah. And the singular option of play. Or like the play itself.

42:04Use that to then, you see like conversational play, social play. But what my hope is, and part of what I kind of the story I tell in the book is that we didn't forget how to play. We all still know how to play. We have just learned to not play. And that's from coming up in school. Growing up means growing out of playing, right? So if you think about in school, we're told like, hold still. Yeah. Act serious. Pay attention. Yeah. Yeah. And then when you're an adult, I talk about a play voice and an adult voice. And your play voice is like, go do that thing. Be silly. Dance because you love this song.

42:36And your adult voice is like protecting you, right? And it's like, no, you'll look silly. Social rejection. In teenagers especially, when we're really attached to and learn that we need to be socially accepted to some extent. And the way that that happens is just so intense. Plague becomes really shameful for a lot of people. So we have to unlearn all of that in order to get back there. And I think that what alcohol often does is gets us there. It's like a shortcut to cutting inhibitions. And so there's exercises in the book. Let's just get there without it. I'd love to go through some of them as they're kind of laid out in the book, if you're open for that.

43:13So what are the conditions for play? Well, for free play, I am a proponent of free play. And here's just to be clear. I think adults do play a lot. Sports, pickleball. I think conversationally we play when people are writing. If you're a writer, language or poetry, I think, is a really great example. Debate for some people is play. For other people, it's miserable. But for some people, it's how they play. Yeah. Right now, attention play is really interesting and important for adults because our attention is often kind of by default in our phones or given to other things in a way that we're not as good at hanging out in the moment that you might usually pick up your phone.

43:51What is boredom anymore? Yeah, play is so often the antidote to boredom. But if we don't force ourselves to be bored for minimally five minutes, then we have no reason to require play. And our go-to in order to avoid boredom is to scroll. Yeah. And that's just a bottomless pit of are you ever going to find what you're looking for there? Oh, Cass, I had such a wake-up call this weekend. I had decided on Friday morning, because I don't have to post, I don't have anything for the show, I'm not going to open Instagram until I have to on Monday. and I was like shamefully embarrassed with how often I'm not even thinking about it.

44:27It's like I sit on the toilet. It's like my thumb already knows how to go to that page and click it. And I was like, I'd be halfway through the steps before I go like, oh, we're not looking at that. It was like a full day before I broke just the habitual physicality of it. And then by Sunday, I returned to writing in my memoir. I like had a great day of creativity and I felt way, way better. Yeah. I felt so good not knowing what everyone's fighting about. Yeah, and imagine if you had the muscle memory of play instead of phone. Yeah. I think of my phone as potentially a toy, but I'm like, am I using it as a toy or a tool, right?

45:04I like to use it as a tool and when it becomes a toy, that's when I'm like, what's in the world around me that I could be playing with instead? For example, my dog. Yeah. It's like, hey, he's really good at knocking it out of my phone or knocking it out of my hand. Attention play is really, for adults right now, great. And so look around, daydream, watch the birds, look at this thing and imagine how it was made. I love the subway. Subway is my primary form of transport. I don't go on my phone on the subway. Increasingly, I am the only one. Yeah, sure. I'm imagining where are they coming from and going to, or how was that thing made, or what was that person thinking with those shoes?

45:42And I'll do a deep dive and try to figure out what's going on. Yeah, you have to create a little story that makes them make sense to you visually, which is very fun. In the bigger picture, if I were to name my function, that attention play for me in the subway, it's about reconnecting and feeling connected to the people around me, which for me is absolutely essential for my feeling okay. If I were to go and scroll instead, I would be confronted by stories about that it is all the worst and everything is terrible, which things are not great. I think we can all agree. so I can go in there and lose all faith in humanity or I could just look up and be like here are some people that are having the best days of their lives and the worst days of their lives I cry on the subway I love crying on the subway because actually I think the subway is maybe the only safe place to cry because eventually someone will make eye contact like we see each other I'm reminded that I'm not alone in it everyone's there and they're stuck there it's also very good to right size your self-obsession in egomaniacal nature.

46:47I do remember we traveled every way by car when I was a kid. My mom, God bless her, she showed us the country on like 200 bucks. And I'd be sitting in the back of the car and I'd just be watching all the windows that go by as you're driving through Cincinnati. And as a kid, I would just get obsessed with like, well, every one of those windows has someone inside and every one of those people inside has some dream. And there's so many of us. There's something scary about it. And then there's also something that just right sizes your own importance. Oh, yeah. Look at all these windows. These are all these people have dreams just like you are.

47:21They all have these things just like you. I do think there's something helpful about that. Yeah. How do adults stay playful? OK, so for adults, in particular with free play, embracing possibility, which means be open to what you might find at any point. For example, not looking at your phone. Look around and be curious. Releasing judgment. Walk us through that one in detail. Releasing judgment. So we are our own worst critics. We came up through school and we were extrinsically motivated. Someone told us what to do. They told us how to be good at them. And they told us we needed to be good at them.

47:54So our self-value got attached to success. So of course, as adults, we're going to be still obsessed with being really productive, which probably means like efficient. You don't waste time. No dilly-dallying. Look at all these efficiency gurus that exist. Oh my God. People like worship these people. What are we prioritizing? Like to what end? And even like as a problem solving, I'm like, but is that a problem? These problems we're solving. First of all, today's solution is tomorrow's problem. Plastic, cars, everything that we thought was going to be. We're solving problems that maybe aren't problems.

48:25And we don't know. I try to keep an awareness of what we don't know. But we then have these systems that we're a little bit stuck with. So being playful and approaching things as play will make us more able to kind of shift and be agile when they aren't what we expect or when they don't work out the way that we want. Because we didn't create a singular definition of what succeeding would be. Of what succeeding is. Or it has to be this outcome or it's failures. But I could hear some people listening who have these jobs and they have to turn in their thing to their boss on time because if not, they'll get fired.

48:56They're like, I can't dilly dally. There's no room for that in this life. What is the response to that? Fuck you. No, because even I get it. It's like, we have a show we have to put out at a certain time. There's no time. And actually, I think those are the people who often need play the most because play is not the antithesis. It can be a mindset. So you can be doing your job playfully and, A, lead to different outcomes if that's desired, right? Innovation comes from play. Yeah, talk about JPL. I think that's interesting. Yeah. So Caltech's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, they at some point were realizing that their engineers that they were hiring were not great problem solvers.

49:35And they interviewed them and kind of realized that a lot of them had not been tinkerers. they hadn't played with stuff. Model airplanes or rockets. Or even just like take apart the lawnmower and then try to put it back together or maybe not, or turn it into something else. So they weren't tinkers. They hadn't used their hands specifically. So they started in their interview process, starting to filter out based on, did you tinker? But really what that meant was, are you a playful person? Not only did you play as a child, but do you play now? And it's made a huge difference in the success of how innovative they are, how good they are, problem solving.

50:11So there are ways that if somebody is really like, there's no room for this. They make spreadsheets or an accountant. I kind of think spreadsheets can be playful. Oh, I love to hear this. I had a friend who I worked with for a long time and she would make really sexy spreadsheets. So we started calling them sex cell spreadsheets because they were like so beautiful. And you're like, yes, oh my God, it feels so good to me. So she loved making, you know, that was kind of her play. You just also need an environment where that's okay. Right. And there can be ways that the work life doesn't change at all.

50:43But outside of it, she can kind of let herself play. A lot of it is like give yourself permission to play. Totally. And realize that play might look like when you're taking a hike, if it's hot or your friend is slow and kind of annoying you, don't get so hung up on. We're doing this hike. We have to get to the top. I'm so annoyed. Oh my God, we only have an hour and I really want to do this. I really want that selfie from the top. Right. So maybe if you were to release judgment and say we're out here and also the third element is reframing success. Is success getting to the top or is success that we're hanging out together?

51:16So maybe we can just take our time or hang out on that one cliff and throw pebbles at the people coming up the hill. Shift the goal. Shift the goal. Maybe starting with like, we can't fail at this. We got together and we're here. Failure isn't really even a possibility. This is already a big success. We are being social. That's essential for our health. It's so natural for adults to be hung up on success because 12 years of really intense time and then also college, if you did that, we're told what success looks like and our self-worth and our value and our own understanding of our intelligence and competence is wrapped up in a success that someone else defined for us.

51:55Kids early on at the playground, that social hierarchy is really different because it's going to be the kids who are good at play. They are the coolest ones. Yeah, but he jumps off the top of the monkey bars. You're like, what the fuck? Exactly. That person is a champion. Or the kid who can paint a weird blotch on the corner with the chalk, figured out that if you add water to chalk, it's like rainbow paste. That is the hero. It changes so fast. I feel like into the bully becomes the stat. Like the person who figures out they can be the loudest and meanest, which is such an interesting segue to where we are right now.

52:30because I think we're seeing play get shut down by a bully. Comedy and satire is play. And we have a bully who is shutting down play. And that, first of all, shows the power of play, that play is so threatening that a bully who has the power to do so is going to shut it down. And it's also a way to kind of remind us that play isn't a thing we do to then be able to be resilient. Yes, play makes us resilient, But play actually is the resistance. By playing, we are continuing to push back on anything that tells us that we need to not be human. Continuing to play is, in fact, also resistance. Well, this is where you get into Man's Search for Meaning, Victor's book.

53:16Esther Perel saying eroticism was the quintessential ingredient that allowed these Holocaust survivors to have lives after it. There's a lot of well-documented social science about it's not frivolous. It's not extraneous. It's actually what will allow you to carry on or not. Absolutely. Or to be subjugated or not. Or be defeated or not. Or to be oppressed or not. These are really core antidotes to those things. I think marginalized communities know this well. It was interesting writing the book. People will say, well, why are you so good at play? You know, I'm kind of like deep dive into like, why am I going to play?

53:49Well, as a child, you mentioned latchkey kid or just not having adults around. So play was all I did. But also I had a tricky childhood. I didn't know it at the time, but that was how I got through. I'm really grateful that I had a really strong drive to play because I think I would be a really different person if I hadn't played the whole time while all of these tricky things were happening in my childhood. And I see in my adulthood times that are hard. And I think also in protest and as a queer person, we play. Queers are very good at playing. Oh, yeah. Because we have to. And it's how we resist.

54:23You'll never go to a better Halloween party than West Hollywood. They throw the best one on the planet. It's like how we resist. I, two nights ago, was at an unprofessional variety show with chaotic drag performers and comedians and all of us laughing and crying every once in a while because also it was grounded and we're all terrified. It was, I think, reminding us all who we are and that we're going to be okay. Yeah. Yeah, I have a personal explanation for it. So I have a best friend I've had since I was 11. We both had dicey childhoods. His was off the charts dicey. And it occurred to me when he and I have fun, we can have fun in a way that's so elevated.

54:59Aaron and I can get to a buffet bar and we can be like, we just found a chest of gold. And my explanation of it is particularly when things are grueling and tough. When these rays of sunshine poke through, they're so powerful relative to the other thing that we learn to just dance in it, fucking grab onto it as hard as we can and just squeeze it for every drop that'll come out of it. We just have a commitment for when it's good, man, let's go. And I think that's part of the recipe. Recognizing it. Yeah, and if it's essential, you'll do it. That's my explanation being playful. It was kind of essential.

55:36And then I think the pitch would be, for someone who doesn't necessarily need relief, to still encourage them to be extremely playful, even if they're not necessarily in deep need of relief. Like it sounds to me like given your childhood, you needed some relief and the play was the relief. Yeah, and I think I needed big gesture. I needed to be moving around in my body, outside of buildings, exploring, connecting, not knowing what I was around, to balance out that school, The actual physical structure that I spent eight hours a day in was really just killing me. Soul killing. Still to this day, when it's a beautiful day out and we watch kids file into a school, I'm just like, and I have kids in my life now.

56:20So I'm sometimes the adult who's dropping them off and watching them go inside. And I'm like trying to feel like this is right. But I'm like, this is wrong. Like, what are we doing? They might like it. Yes, for some people. Absolutely. In part because that's where their friends are. Exactly. That's the most social place. I loved school. Also, again, some people are built for that. That's what they desire. They want the list of things they can accomplish, and that's lovely. It's a matter of scale. It works for everybody in what you brought up. Some people want instructions, and not everybody wants big loudness.

56:48Some kids want to be in a fort. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

57:05The playgrounds that I design and the way that also I think about my own adult summer camp, which I have. You have an adult summer camp? We're playtesting it with friends and a few groups. We've had a few a year for a while. We're getting there. My play last weekend was to dig up the cesspool that had fallen in. And I don't mean a septic tank. It was a cesspool. So we're like getting there. Let's just say I am aware of what kind of accommodations adults need in order to create the conditions for free play to arise. One of the stories I tell in my book is about my friend Colleen and I, who I think maybe is more like you in her play.

57:38And she's also very engineer minded, but we were doing a Lego set together and I was just grabbing pieces and making stuff. We're chatting, catching up. And at some point I realized I can feel her getting more and more annoyed with me. Then there's this kind of deep sigh. And I was like, OK, what? What's going on? What? And she was like, you're taking the pieces I need. And I was like, oh, wait, are you following the instructions? And she was like, yes, dude, this is what we're doing. And I was like, huh, are you having fun? and she was like, yes, I'm having fun but it was just like Cass, we're painfully similar one of our huge debates is we were interviewing this person who is taking on woodworking and they were telling us that they were watching these YouTube tutorials and I said, why are you doing that?

58:24You have a saw, you have the wood what reward would there be in having someone tell you how to do it and Monica was like, what's wrong with you? Of course that's what he wants to do, he wants to get good at woodworking and I'm like, yeah, yeah how's he going to get good if he doesn't? Also, by the way, had another person who chopped his hand off doing that. I don't think a YouTube tutorial would have saved his hand. I do. And this is the beauty of being a really curious human. You're like, oh, fascinating. Wonderful. Now I understand a little bit more about how you work and we're friends. So this is great.

58:54We took a timeout and I was like, okay, here, I'll put my pieces back. And we did it together. We followed the instructions. And I was like, okay, that was the thing that we did together. Totally different than my play. Resetting your expectations. redefining success. Yeah. And I got to learn what her play was. This is how we understand each other, right? We learn about each other through play. You two know each other because you're both conversationally so playful. Do you know what Monica likes? Air play. Oh, it's my favorite kind of play. Receiving. Yeah, of course. I was going to say, like, I don't know if you get to like necessarily.

59:29It's so nice. No, but I'm with you. I feel like Legos, I don't like because I actually am not very good at following those instructions. And then I'm like, oh, I can't do this. As opposed to just being like, well, I can just make something random and that's fine. I'm just like, oh, I can't achieve the thing that this is meant to achieve. But you can click those blocks together. Yeah. And it's so funny because then you have a toy that's telling you that you're wrong, right? And you're like, wait, I am a competent human. And this thing that's meant to make me feel good and enjoy myself is making me feel bad.

1:00:04When you do do it correctly, it's a pretty big high. It's a pretty big accomplishment. You know what's fun, though, is if you could think of play as being this safe area to experiment and challenge the broader issues that we all have. You're such a great achiever and straight A's and all that. But if you had a zone that you could safely dabble in, fucking up failing. You know, like it might be therapeutic or cathartic. Yeah. And probably I should follow a YouTube tutorial on how to make a desk. Like that would be my growth. You know, like that's how I could grow. Yeah. Do the thing that's hard and stay unattached to the outcome.

1:00:48Definitely. I just wanted to say one thing that's a personal pet peeve. So back to the play at work, you're the accountant and how do you actually play? So this is my grievance with the culture generally in the workplace, which is I used to prep cars for a living. For 14 years, I washed cars. Thank God I worked for my mom and she valued play. But I had coworkers who were annoyed because I'm laughing nonstop. I'm doing it. Okay, how much to punch your uncle in the know? You know, playing these dumb games. But yo, I'm washing cars faster than anybody. And what annoys me is there is some assumption in the workplace that having fun and playing while you are productive is not the right vibe.

1:01:26And that drives me bonkers. And I think a lot of managers are just threatened by the notion that you could be playing and having fun. Yeah. That they're losing complete control as opposed to like, well, what is the output of this happy, playful person? Exactly. But it's also that we undervalue the benefit. That whole workplace was better off because of you. So say that you actually, we're going to shift it slightly. Say that you washed one-tenth fewer cars every day. And we valued efficiency and productivity over joy and cohesion of team. And probably the clients would like to come there because you all don't look miserable doing a service.

1:02:03Turnover, that's a cost. If we understand that playfulness and social skills are in fact a value that could be prioritized and compensated for. Right. Because I mean, we see this also in all kinds of offices where the jobs that are like, oh, you just make everybody feel good. But I actually crunched the numbers. And it's like, so why do you get paid more than I do? Because we're both critical to this working. So there's an undervalue of kind of social, forget about it. If it's somebody who deals with emotions, then we're really... Yeah, just give them minimum wage. Or teachers. Oh my God. So, but there's an undervaluing of those as skills that people are often built for.

1:02:41And also that they learn. And it's a muscle that we exercise as well. So I think in that case, like it's a really great example of that. The playfulness made everything better. It just wasn't a priority. So for people reading the book or people saying that I want to be more playful, just prioritizing play and letting yourself play. And then, of course, if you're so far removed from it, you may need to do some work to find your play. What is your play? Well, Cass, I'm so delighted you wrote such a thoughtful and well-researched book on being playful. And to remind everyone, it's called Playful, How Play Shifts Are Thinking Inspires Connection and Sparks Creativity.

1:03:15I hope everyone checks it out. Sincerely, I hope people could more increasingly prioritize it. It feels frivolous, and I just don't think it's frivolous. No, it's not. Especially not right now. Everything's so serious. We need some of this back in our brains. I promise you, not a single human being will be on their deathbed, and they'll go like, fuck, I shouldn't have played so much while I was here. That sentence will never come out of a dying person's mouth. No. I think I worked too much. Pretty likely that might come out. Yeah, or I didn't prioritize my family, which is often through play. Yeah.

1:03:48Or my people, generally. Yeah. Yeah, your chosen family. Well, Cass, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you. This was delightful. Thank you for him. I love him. Yes. Yours is a ham? It's very vaginal looking. Would you agree? I'll just write this very second. I don't know about later. Yeah, thank you for playing. Yes. Thank you. All right, be well.

1:04:10Hi there, this is Hermione Permian. If you like that, you're going to love the fact check of Miss Monica. Doesn't that sound good? It does sound nice. Did you hear any of that? It sounds like Foley. Yeah. But it was real.

1:04:27Oh. Oh, my God. I feel very elegant right now. I mean, really elegant. I have poured myself a glass of sparkling mineral water, maybe? Uh-huh. Artesian water? Yeah. Artesian. Yeah. Why do you have that fancy water? Because Ethan Suplee, one of my favorite people on the planet. Yeah. He's a connoisseur of water. If you'll recall, he's the one who figured out I didn't have IBS, that I was just allergic to. Pellegrino. Pellegrino. And he didn't even figure it out. He just told me he shits his pants when he drinks Pellegrino. I was like, oh, my God, that's what's been happening. I don't have IBS. Yeah.

1:05:07It was a big reveal. So I guess he's a water connoisseur. And he texted me the other night and it was like the way he's just, he's like, you must try this water. Oh. And he was so like descriptive about it. What did he say? Do you want me to read it? I'll read it to you. Classic suplee. I love people who are super into stuff. It makes, it just makes for so much more fun. It does. Yeah. He said, very fine discovery with a photograph of the water. I said, it's exceptional. You know, he said it sits in the glass appearing for all intents and purposes to be a still. And yet when it hits your tongue, the effervescence is quite magical, quite delightful.

1:05:52I would definitely go so far as to say exceptional. Wow. So based on that, I ordered a case. Wow. Yeah. And it came that fast? Yeah. I guess that was maybe Sunday he sent me that. God knows where he was at, where he. Well, what's the brand? Well, I don't want to like just be promoting a brand of water. Well, it's too late. Well, no, now it's just. Okay. Yeah. It's called Tahoe. Okay, great. Yeah. I don't like it. I don't want anyone to think that this is like some kind of in episode ad. Well, it's not. It's not. Yeah. But it's, you know. We talk about things we like. It's okay. Okay. Is he right?

1:06:32Is it exceptional? You want to take a sip? Yeah, I do. Yeah, I think it's actually quite exceptional. You know, it has like the nicest balance of like the mineral and the sparkle taste, but also very flat taste. Right. I'm going to take one more sip. Yeah. Like I would, I think they nailed it with the label because there's something about it that makes me just think silver. It's really nice. Yeah. You guys want to read the coupon code? That is tasty. It feels like the bubbles are teeny tiny. Minuscule bubbles. Yeah. How do they do it? I don't know. That's why it's called artisanal. Yeah. Have you ever been to like a fancy restaurant where there's a water menu?

1:07:09Yeah, it's triggering. That's why I'm like conflicted by this whole thing. But because it came from Ethan, who's so not snobby, I'm in. And also he's an ex-addict as well. So it's like, we can't get super into wine. So here, what do we got? We got water. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love it. You got to geek out about something like that. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So you, what started off as a very nice gesture. You, well, I don't know how this happened, But what happened between you and Delta and LaBear shit tea? Okay. We were outside yesterday chit-chatting. Catching up. Catching up. And we got on the subject of, gosh, she must have been talking about some sort of stuffy or something.

1:07:51Of course. Of course. Maybe Groot. Maybe ask her what Groot was or something. I didn't. I haven't checked in in a minute on Groot, actually. But I don't remember. But then TT, your sister, said something about Beanie Babies, and we got on the subject of Beanie Babies. Oh, I know exactly how. There we go. Bingo. Someone brought up Pez. We're going way far back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone brought up Pez. I don't remember yet how we got to Pez. But Pez came up, and I said, you know, speaking of, speaking of being very into things, I said, I never got into Pez. And I'm kind of surprised. Yeah. Because it seems like something right up my alley.

1:08:31More of this, yeah, shocking thing. Yeah, it's collectible. Colorful. Yeah, candies. Limited edition candy. Limited edition. But actually the candy is the part that I didn't like that candy. Well, I don't want to get sued, but yeah. They can't sue me for my opinion. I personally don't like that candy. But I think Pez did great. Pez is there all right. Whether or not I liked the candy, I think they did great. But I do think you're right in that the appeal of it was way more the delivery device than the - The candy itself. Yeah. But I don't think I realized that at the time, which is a big mistake on my part.

1:09:10I thought it was about the candy, which I wasn't into, instead of realizing it's a collectible - And it's about the experience of administering the candy. And like the people on top and stuff. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:09:36Anyway, so big regret of mine that I never got into PEZ. We were talking about that. And so then we were talking about collectibles. And then TT brought up Beanie Babies. Because someone sent me a PEZ dispenser for nicotine pouches. That's how this all started. That's right. An arm cherry day. Yeah, yeah. Some two cute kids started up. That's exactly how this started. Yep. And she, yeah, so then she started talking about Beanie Babies. And then I naturally brought up LaBertie. And I said, he's in the garage. And she said, can I see him? I said, of course. So we walked on over. And as soon as I, you know, put him in her little hands.

1:10:13He came alive. Yeah. She was like, oh, he's so cute. And to remind people in the audience, he's covered in shit. It's like someone had put a shit can in and spattered it all over his face. So the fact that she looked at him, oh, he's so cute, is so Delta, you know? It is. I know. She'd see right past the shit on someone's face. I know. And she asked if she could take, she called it something. Vacation? Something like that. She asked if she could take him for a day for something. And I said, of course. And I said, you can take him anytime you want. You know, he's in your he's by your house like you can take him.

1:10:51And so she she took him on an adventure and then she ran back out. She said, Monica, what's his name again? I said, Liberty. It's Liberty, but with bear in the center. And she loved that. Yeah. So then you leave. Da da da. Busy day again. Wife's out of town. She's got her first volleyball game. Yeah. Which is hysterical. She had her first practice of her life on Monday and then her first game was on Wednesday. So we practiced in the yard and then we ordered food. Now it's crunch time. We're cutting it close. And then for some weird reason, the place we always order pizza from, which is so fast, is like taking forever and ever and ever.

1:11:33I'm like, I call the place because I'm friendly over there. No, it's in the oven. Okay, blah, blah, blah. And so it arrives. I mean, there's a side thing where I got into it. with Lincoln in what will be the first of many big fights we'll have throughout our relationship. As you know, you have a teenager. You guys are going to, there's going to be dust ups. Yeah. So just the heat is on. We're in a huge rush to get out. Like we, we are, we are, the pizza comes, we were cramming it down. We get in the car and she's like, oh, I forgot something. And I'm like, we don't. Oh boy. We don't have time for you to forget something.

1:12:13Also, everything's in that bag. I know everything you need is in the bag. Also, all you need is yourself. Right. She runs back inside and she comes outside with fucking Liberty and a Polaroid camera. And I'm like, this is what? Well, he's on vacation and you have to photograph him because he went to a volleyball game on vacation. I'm like, okay. And we get to the volleyball game. Oh my God. And every parent, like we are about 30 seconds late. Okay. So I'm already kind of embarrassed about that. Oh. Also, I don't know anyone on the team's name. Like you don't want to be the parent that didn't get their kid to the volleyball game on time.

1:12:55Sure, sure, sure. So I'm a little embarrassed about that. Sitting next to the only two parents I know. And everyone seems to know every kid on the player on the team's name. I don't know anyone. I just was at that one thing, right? Yeah. All these things. Yeah. And then like big stuff's happening and I'm fucking having a photo session with Liberti which I can show you. Oh my God. We have to put it up. Oh yeah. Yeah. Let me send it to Rob. This is really a Monica story. There's so much to this story. Oh my God. What? My heart is so big plays are happening and I'm missing it. Cause I'm trying to get, I'm trying to get a shot at the volleyball game without my hands in it.

1:13:37Oh, and lighting and shadows or whatever, you know, Now, here's the impossible thing. And this is just, this is really Delta and really her mom. Okay. These two with these horseshoes. All right, go ahead and show Monty this. This is.

1:13:56Of course, she had a whole outfit for him. He's got a skirt, a bib, a cardigan, a hat. Shit all over his face. Oh my God, I want to cry. And I can only imagine what the other parents think of me who showed up late. I'm on TV and I spend the whole time doing a photo shoot with Liberty. I'm missing huge plays. People are cheering. I'm like, what? What happened? Wait, he looks so happy. He's kind of pointing to Delta. That's actually Delta just above. Right there? Yeah, yeah. That's her at the front of the net. Okay, now here's the part where it's like, you know, some people just have charmed lives.

1:14:40So it's little, it's 10-year-olds playing volleyball. Yeah. Nobody's getting their serve over. Oh, sure. I would say, realistically, 90 % of the serves don't make it over. Okay, yeah. Delta steps up for her very first serve, and I'm like, you know, no way she's getting it over. She started playing on Monday. Yeah. She gets it over perfectly. Oh! They get it back. The other team returns it, and then it falls flat. But I'm like, oh, my God. I'm like, I'm so excited. Her next time up, four in a row over, scores three points. I'm like, what? I'm not surprised. She's a natural at everything. Oh, my God.

1:15:27And, like, there's a lot in there. There's, like, Eckhart Tolle, Power Now. I don't know what it is, but it's, like, I would have gone in there. Like it had been so important to me that I was good. Right. And she didn't really go in there with that. I think she went in there to have fun with her new friends. And then she was great. And then she like. Her focus was her friend's vacation. Oh, my God. I couldn't believe it. There were three other girls out of 25 or 26. Each had four alternates. Whatever. A lot of girls. Yeah. There were really only four girls the entire night that served it over more than two times in a row.

1:16:03got. Wow, that's so exciting. She was like a standout. Yes, I couldn't believe it. And then when a ball came her way and she got it, like, and then they won 2-0. It was best 2 out of 3. And they won their first game, they won 2-0. I'm so proud of her. I'm so proud Liberti got to watch that. It's incredible she can be athletic with that horseshoe so far up her ass. No, it's not luck, it's skill and it's passion. You know Kristen went to her first baseball game and hit a home run. But maybe that's also skill. Well, clearly they have skill. Exactly. Obviously. I think it's just hidden talents. I think there's something kind of cool and metaphysical happening.

1:16:41Okay. I think there's like karmic rewards for being, her priority is probably for everyone else to shine and the other girls on the team. I don't know. There's something suspicious. You just don't go to your first time ever trying something and you're like third or fourth best person. Oh, wow. Wow. Oh, and it's so cute watching girls play. I love it because every time someone messes up, which is almost all the time, everyone's like, good job, girl, right? And even when it's like, they would get a volley going. Now you're invested. It's like, oh my God. And then someone shits the bed. Yeah, of course, yeah.

1:17:18Boys, 100 % of boys are like, Michael Pinson. Yeah. Wake up. Yeah, yeah, upset. That's just like how boys are. But these girls are so supportive and kind to each other. And everyone left in a great mood. And no one felt bad if they didn't do good. And it was delightful. I had a blast at this volleyball game. I cannot wait. First, I was like, oh, boy, we got volleyball across town twice a week. Now, no, I can't wait to go. Oh, exciting. I want to go to a game. Oh, you should. I'll bring Liberti. I bet Liberti is not going to want to miss it. I'm sorry. Now, back to that. That's not even my complaint yet.

1:17:55Oh. So that was the game, right? And then I drive her to school this morning and Liberti's with her on the seat. And then we get out of the car and she's like, OK, you'll keep Liberti with you all day today. And I was like, yeah. And she's like, yeah, he doesn't. He's on vacation. You like you can't just leave him. So I'm like, OK. She has a lot of ideas about vacation. I'm like, I'm going to put him on the bed. Of course. It's a great vacation. If you ask me if you could leave. Well, but he does sit a lot. She was very specific that I needed to like incorporate him into my. So here I am with Liberti.

1:18:30Like you and I were coming to the studio. Yeah. I was like, oh, fuck, I forgot Liberti. And I had to run in the house now and be late. I thought you ran in to get him to return him. But I was like, no, no, he should still hang out with Delta for some time. Oh, no, he's going to go see another one battle after another. Are you singing again? Yeah, yeah. With Larry Trilling. Oh, are you going to the best? Yeah, yeah. First time at the Vista. Oh, you'll love it. Okay. Can you take a picture of him in the seat? Yeah, you must. Oh, we were having fun with that. You know, there's that, I think you should leave sketch where he says there's shit on the receipt.

1:19:09Yes. And then he's like, let's, someone goes, let's, let's get out of here. This place is covered in shit. So we were walking into class on the sidewalk and we were saying, Luberte is covered in shit. I can't believe the outfit she put him in. Oh, I'm sure he'll be in four or five others before he comes back. I was really not expecting to see an outfit on him. And she made it so quick. I mean, I left it like two o 'clock. And she's even explaining to me like, yeah, so this is Ken's cardigan, but I put it on backwards. It looks more chic backwards. So that was actually in reverse. Yeah, it looked so good.

1:19:50Yeah, he looked great. And a sequins dress. I feel unethical at this point. Bringing him back. I think she needs to adopt him. I think I have to give it. I think it's time for me to put him up for adoption to her only. Well, as the parent who lives in a house with too much stuff, if you want to keep him in here as well, that's also fair. I know. I know. I understand where you're coming from as the grandparent. Yeah, we, I mean, we just, I don't know if we can be tending to yet another with this attention to detail. I just, though, like I'll never be able to unsee him in that outfit really living like his best life.

1:20:35Can you see if I did get back into show business and I'm walking into pitch projects at like Warner Brothers and I'm entering with three or four stuffies. I got Gru with me and LeShitty and the whole gang. He is named proper. Okay. I did. It is kind of funny, though, because last night I was thinking I also was thinking like, oh, that was so sweet that Delta wanted to like play with him. And I already had the thought. I was like, she's she she should just keep him like, you know, I should give her that. And now you see what kind of steward she is. Well, and then this. Yeah, it's just like fully irresponsible for me to be like, that's mine.

1:21:14And just leave it sitting on this shelf when it's living a big life with her. that's kind of what happened with how brie got bilby the dog bilby um mac oh oh it was someone else's dog that she would babysit oh and she'd be out in a sweater at the beach with bilby you know and the person was finally like this this is it's not fair she's doing a better job yeah yeah as as a parent you got to know when you're not doing a good job i hope no one does a better job with Delta. I do not want to give her back. I don't know. I mean, I guess you got to keep that in mind. I'm not open to it yet. Talk to me in some time.

1:21:57Maybe when she's fully hormonal. Hitting the teens. Yes. Oh my God. Well, I am. Can you send me that picture, please? Oh yeah, of course. What a great day. What a great day he has. He's done more in the last 14 hours than he did his previous 20 years on this planet. Well, I don't know. He spent a lot of time in my parents' basement doing God knows what. Obviously, that's why he looks like that. That's why he's covered. That was his, like, naughty era, obviously. His rum springer? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he lost his tag. But even when you got him, would I be right to assume, you got him as a valuable collectible item.

1:22:34You weren't playing. I was not playing with him, no. Yeah, yeah. No, I was not. So he probably honestly did get more playing in yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. He did. That's a hopeful story. Like, don't rule off that you might have, like, the most playful. In your older years. Yeah. In the twilight of your life. Yeah. I mean, he lost his tag. I kind of feel like when he was in my parents' basement, it was, like, the height of his addiction. Mm-hmm. You know, he lost his tag. He got covered in shit. Yeah. He was doing. He was. Naughty. He was doing sexual acts. Yeah. For drugs. Probably with the, like, I mean, there were some other Beanie Babies.

1:23:11down there and then there was like some like a cabbage patch oh they're nasty yeah they still oh maybe that explains it so you know but i feel like now someone said in the comments that you and i are just we've gotten too gross they were like you guys are just disgusting now i think i'm something about maybe my getting my prostate exam whatever that's real That's medical, man. People have to get their prostate. You don't like medicine. Exactly. You don't like science. You won't be saying that when it saves your life. Exactly. That's right. All right. Oh, that was an accident for the listener. I just knocked the Liberti off of the armrest.

1:23:54Oh, boy. Okay. Yeah, you got to remember he's smaller than Groove. I'm going to want to play with my phone because you know how kids love it. Screen time. Yeah, that'll distract him. I wonder what he's going to watch. I hope he doesn't watch porn. slip into that, you know? I mean, he's allowed, but like I just don't want to, you know... I understand. He's sober now and he's... Could be a trigger. It could be super sober. It could bring back some of the shame. Yeah, like if you look at your phone and it's like cabbage patch diaper search. Yeah. You know it's bad. And then you get into all Jennifer Anson's liquor in front of us.

1:24:32Reminder that tomorrow Beth's dead is out everywhere. Guys go to Patreon. How do people even do this? Well, no, they don't have to. Tomorrow it's out like anywhere you get your podcast. Regs. It's regs. It's out. Okay. But it's out week to week. And if you start listening. Want to stay with it. Yeah. If you're like, oh, I want more. I want to binge. You can go to patreon.com slash Beth's dead and you get the whole thing. I can't wait to hear the results of this. This is exciting. Yeah. Cass. Cass. Cass, okay, where can you find playgrounds with the big blue box boxes, you know? You can just search Imagination Playground.

1:25:13Okay, that's— And then you can search your area. You can pop in your zip code, maybe. Yeah, you can see where you can go. Okay. Play with those. Junk Playgrounds, we said were big in the UK. They're not as big in the UK as they once were, sadly. Many are struggling to stay open due to funding cuts. While the concept originated in the UK after World War II and was popular for a time, austerity measures, lack of funding for youth services, and a move toward risk-averse traditional playgrounds have led to the closure or reduction of many. However, they still exist in some areas and have experienced a small resurgence in some places with a growing number of adventure playgrounds popping up in the US as well.

1:25:56Okay, great. That's good. Okay, well, according to the internet, you cannot get an STD from a lazy river. Yeah, yeah. I would like to do some further research. Okay. You want that to be true for some reason. You feel safer in a world where you could get an STD. In a lazy river. Did I already tell you that? You go ahead. No, what? This is now, I don't want to get back into the... Oh, boy. But I tell you about when I was in the hospital and the doctor said we were in there by ourselves. Wait, what? Oh, no one will like this. What? Okay, I'm in there with this doctor. I don't know him. Okay. And he's trying to figure out what's going on with me and my prostate and everything.

1:26:40And he says, you know, anything we say in here is between you and I. It doesn't leave this room. HIPAA. And I immediately know where he's going when he says that. Why? And he says, is there any chance you have an STD? Oh. And I said, oh, I wish. Yeah. Sure. Sure. I wish. I wish. But no, it's not an STD. I mean, if you have been in rivers. Lazy river. But as we now know, even if I had been in a lazy river, I wouldn't be. You've been in regular lake. Yeah. No problem. I'm going to do some research. Okay. So you'd feel more comfortable? Because I think I even said, I think there's a lot of people that blame STDs on a lot of things that are not realistic, like a toilet seat and a this and that.

1:27:34And really, they've just been hanky-panky. Yeah. It's transmitted through intimate sexual contact. Not sitting on a toilet seat. Not through water. Yeah. I mean, on a toilet seat, though. No, you don't – if you had a big open gash on your butt cheek and then a big dump of the STD was sitting on the seat wet. Yeah. But get real. Okay. That's not going to happen. What if a woman put her vagina straight on the seat? Yeah. And secreted some stuff. Mm-hmm. Okay? Yeah. And got the goo on there. Yeah. And then the next person did the same thing. And then the first person had an STD that you'd get it.

1:28:19If it was woman to woman, the second woman also rubbed her vagina all over the sea. Yeah. Maybe. But a lot of these STDs, when they get airborne, they die. Yeah, it's fat. It has to be really fat. Yeah. So, I mean, you're talking about two women grinding on the outside of the toilet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ew. Yeah. I mean, I'm just saying it could. And I don't want to generalize, but I don't think it's a ton of women claiming they got an STD from a toilet seat again. I think it's more men, and I don't think they have a vagina to rub on there. Oh, they're saying it because they cheated? Exactly.

1:28:59Oh, my God. I don't know, hon. I must have got it at the urinal. Oh, that's, yeah. Oh, you didn't even know where I was at from the whole beginning of this conversation? No, I did. Oh, you did. I did then, but yeah. Now you're really.

1:29:15I don't know, hon. I went in a lazy river. First of all, when did you go in a lazy river? On my golf trip. I mean, maybe. Okay, so TBD on that. Well, okay. No. No, I have to deliver the correct facts and you can't get it. You don't want to get sued by a lazy river manufacturer. But I also don't want to get sued by someone who did get one in a lazy river. They didn't. There's chlorine in there. They got a swimsuit on. It does say chlorine. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Oh, fuck. There was, I remember when I was younger and herpes was all the rage. Yeah. Because herpes really hit the scene in the 80s. That's where it was like all over the news.

1:29:57This new thing, herpes, herpes. Yeah. And I remember they would say you could get herpes from a hot tub. Yeah. But I don't know if that's true. They would say that. Maybe that's where all this is coming from. Herpes from a hot tub. That'd be a good band name. It would be. Herpes from a hot tub. Yeah. Yeah. Herpes is cute. It's a cute name. A lot of these are bad. Yeah. You know. Gonorrhea. Gonorrhea. Chlamydia is not good. Sounds like diarrhea. Yeah. Yeah. It's gonorrhea. Plug your ears, people who are sensitive. There's something about the word gonorrhea where I think I can smell it. Ew. Right?

1:30:33That's disgusting. But do you agree? Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. Sick. Chlamydia. That's kind of cute. Koala bears get it. It sounds like a flower. Like it could have been a flower. A chlamydia. Yeah, she got me. I got her a dozen chlamydias. Beautiful. Yeah. Syphilis. That one sounds rough. Syphilis. Syphilis almost is an onomatopoeia. Uh-huh. And have you seen what happens to the, like, have you seen the skulls from the people who died of syphilis in the 16 and 1700s. It eats away all the frontal. Brain? White matter? The bone, the bone. It's all like, it looks like not even Swiss cheese, like termites.

1:31:20Ew. Yeah, yeah. It's rough, rough, rough, rough. I mean, people do need to be careful. Like, I don't want people to go in lazy rivers. No, go in lazy rivers. They're really fun and they're safe. Get syphilis. Yeah. I have an unfortunate thing that happened. I was supposed to check a fact and I didn't. Oh, what was it? But I tried to check it online and I couldn't find it. And so I needed to look in her book and I meant to go find the book and I didn't. Okay. But it was the stat for the experiment she talked about where people, like students took a, some students took a test in silence. Some went, I mean, there was music, some did a puzzle.

1:32:01and then there were percentages about outcomes. And she said the one she was saying was definitely wrong, but that they're in the book. And yet I did not retrieve them. Sophia would have done it. I still like you. Okay, thank you. You've paid no reputational price for that. And that's it. That's everything. I've been playing with my Gimo, the cute toy she gave us. I've been playing with my gonorrhea. No. Oh.

1:32:33can you play with your gun i've never had gonorrhea shockingly what have you had i mean i guess i could have had it and then i had antibiotics or something else and didn't ever no i said what have you had oh i'm not gonna talk about

1:32:55i'll only tell you stuff i haven't had okay that's it all right love you

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