Charlie Sheen

23:27Oh, wow. I'm really emotional at the end. Wow. I just moved beyond belief. It had everything I could want. It's spectacular. Oh, right on. Thank you. And then I'm two thirds of the way through the book. I'm listening to you. Okay, good. Are you getting a sense that the book is telling stories in a different way or filling in some blanks from stories in the doc? Absolutely. The ones that overlap. There's a ton more in the book. Right. And I want to compliment you. I'll be honest with you. While I'm listening to it, I'm like, who did he get to write this book? I thought, oh, you know what? He probably got one of the sitcom writers that wrote for him and really knew how to write in his voice.

24:00Because, you know, these great writers, they do that. They learn your voice and they can write for you. Mimic it, yeah. And it's so funny. I thought, yeah, that's what happened. That's how he sourced this ghostwriter or collaborator or whatever. Right, right. And then I was reading the interview with you and Emilio in interview today and learned that you actually wrote the whole thing. I did. I was so impressed because, A, it's just a very well-constructed and formatted book. The structure of it's great. It's solid. But your authentic voice is there every sentence. Which is hard to do. That's great writing when you can infuse your actual voice onto the page.

24:37Wonderful compliment. Thank you. It's really, really good. No, that's really cool. Yeah, they tried to put me with the ghostwriter, which rightfully so. You know, with my history and my past or however people perceive me. Right. Says, I'm going to write a book. And they're like, well, it's an investment they need to protect. Right. They're like, we think you need to work with someone. And I was like, that's a deal breaker. Yeah. There was like an audition phase for a certain amount of chapters. Oh, wow. And then they finally, there was that one day where they were like, let's just leave him alone.

25:06Let's let him keep going. That's a testament to Jen Bergstrom and Amy Bell and my team at Schuster. They just went, okay. Good. Were you typing or handwriting? I was handwriting my notes, but typing the actual chapters. The manuscript. The manuscript. And I don't type well. Are you a speed typist? I type pretty fast, but I type with four fingers pretty fast. Right. Okay. I can't, what do they call it? Yeah. Home? I don't know. It's called something. My son Bob is like 180 words a minute. It's insane. It's all from gaming. All from gaming. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, how do you get like a nice paying job?

25:42Right. With that kind of typing speed. With that skill, yeah. You get in a time machine and go back to 1981. Exactly. And put them on someone's desk. He can be a secretary. You know? But, okay, as I think about how do I get your life into this interview in some way, really it's impossible. There's so much stuff. It's crazy. I mean, I really could do five hours on all the things that I learned in that doc. But I guess there were kind of some thematic things that I wanted to go through. And also, I hope they told you the dude is like wide open. Or they probably said, stay away from this shit. No one said anything.

26:19Okay, good. But I know because we're both in a program that we won't help ourselves even if that was the game plan. Yeah, but my thing is like, well, hold on. I put it not just in a documentary. Yeah. I put it in a book that I wrote. Right. If you do that, you better be willing to talk about all of it. Great. So that's one of my first questions. Yeah. Because I have, at times, written things, then put them out there. In the writing, it's fine because I'm in total control and I'm in my room and then I get to decide what gets published. But once it leaves my barn. The giant whoosh to the universe.

26:51Don't you have this like, well, I had control and now I don't have it. Oh, yeah. I went through that. It was a powerful moment, though. Yeah. It's scary, right? It's scary. And then I made a decision. I can either stay backpedaling, I can be on my heels, or I could just lean into it. Right. I had to lean into it to hit send, right? Yeah. And I'm not like a lean in kind of guy, just by nature. I'm always sort of like, hey, let's talk about this. A little skeptical. Yeah. But I think that was kind of a cool moment to break through. Yeah. To just say. Release. Yeah. Like, all right, what happens next?

27:21I could say is none of my business because it is and it isn't. The part about how it's perceived is none of my business. Right. But then it's made my business when I have to talk about it and promote it. totally correct yes and have you found that some of the stuff is much harder to say out loud than it was to type out it was in the first couple interviews and then i caught a snippet of one because i don't really watch a lot of stuff but i did catch a clip off of good morning america with michael strahan who's amazing i'm sure you know michael right i've been on the show and met him but i don't know him personally but he's a great dude yeah yeah and so we got into some stuff i caught like a little section like a youtube short i think of it right and i didn't look confident.

28:00And I thought, okay, I saw that for a reason, just accidentally flipping past other shit, right? I needed to know that. Yeah. And I was like, okay, all right, let's change that. If I'm uncomfortable, what's the audience doing? Yeah. It's contagious. Dude, really? Oh shit. Okay. He looks like he doesn't want to do this and I can't enjoy it if he doesn't want to do it. Right. Right. And they're just waiting for me to tell them another apocalypse story. So of the things that we have in common, we have the addiction thing. I want to say I've gone really, really hard. I've gone harder than most of my peers did that I partied with.

28:32And I was really, really, really shown a whole other level in the doc. I didn't think I'd ever hear someone's story and go like, he's got it worse than I do. Right. You mean the amount? The amount, the duration. There's periods where his dealer who goes hard as fuck, they've been smoking crack for three days. The dealer's got to go home and go to sleep. He comes back in a couple days. Charlie's still at it from a couple days ago. More people have shit. Shut up. With less and less, I don't know how to say it nicely. Yeah. Compose. I always say this. I always weirdly, you do have some inconsistent things as an addict where it's like you're doing one thing, but then you kind of have this virtue.

29:09My thing was I always checked in with my girlfriend. I didn't want her to worry. So it'd be like, I was supposed to come on at two, girl ring at two. Hey, I'm going over this hotel. These guys have just met here, you know? And then I would call her at six million. Now I'm in a different motel. Now the motel. Right. Now I'm with six dudes that are even worse than the previous. Right. And she would go, like, you don't have to update me, you know? Okay, I just don't want you to worry about me, even though what I'm telling you is I'm with worse and worse people at worse and worse places. You're delivering very worrisome news.

29:37And now it's a car. Yeah. Exactly. A car in ghost town. Because Dave lives in San Diego. It's like, what the hell? Yes. What the hell? Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

29:59But in addition to the addict stuff, I see so much of your story in your life being really impacted by being a little brother. Do you think so? When you like dig into what all's going on. No one has really pointed that out or latched onto that. It was just the proximity of being just within arm's reach of his really fast, meteoric fame rise with that group. and then making peace with that. Like, how am I a loser and wanting to be as cool and be invited and be included over here? And then over here, I'm like the person people want to be included by. You're kind of dualistic just by the dynamic you're born in.

30:38For me, that's how it was. Sure. I experienced a lot of that. Inferiority and superiority complex working throughout my whole childhood. Right. And like from one hour to the next. I wasn't like, oh, last week I was a badass. And then the following week I sucked. And I was the valet or the sad puppy dog tagging along. Was your brother the golden child or was everyone? Emilio, he was great in school. He always had a very cute girlfriend. Ramon, who's between Emilio and myself, marched to a different beat. He was a punk rocker searching for some identity somewhere in the mix of all of it. And then we got, of course, dad leading the charge.

31:15You know, I've grown up on his sets and watching his successes and failures. And then my sister Renee is below me. But there's a weird point in the year where we're all exactly two years apart. Oh, wow. Yeah, there's a line in the book about when I went to junior high, which is now middle school. I said it was being exposed to that many girls with all these hormones. It was either the coolest thing ever or the meanest joke ever played on me. And then I said, only skin clarity will tell. Because think about it, right? You start breaking out, it's over. It's a wrap. It is a wrap. It's horrible. Yeah.

31:48Wow. It's so hard to be a kid. But you were always quite cute. You were kind of blessed with being pretty darn cute. Thank you. I did have a bad year and a half. And somehow this summer, like right before I wanted to audition and give this thing a shot professionally, it just magically cleared up. It's like I willed it off of my face. How old, what age were you then? Like 17. Wow. But what I'm going to try to put on you and project onto you is I imagine you got very comfortable in these very big swings. Status quo was these kind of huge swings. I even imagine now I wasn't the child of anyone famous, but I have children.

32:26And I do think about this sometimes. It's like they move through the world with us and they're with mom and dad and everyone knows mom and everyone wants to cater to mom. And do you guys want to sit over there? They're experiencing life in a very privileged and bizarre way. And then when they're not with us and they step outside of it, they resume civilian life, which is no one wants to help you. Like, go fucking ask the other guy, right? Like, that's life on planet Earth. Sure. These radical shifts in the dynamics and what your experience can be, I feel like it almost could hardwire you for how absolutely dramatic your life was ultimately.

33:00Interesting. You mean to be either Martin Sheen's son or Emilio's brother in their presence, but on my own. Piece of shit. He's just a guy. Third dude from the rear, yeah. And then you get your own, so it's like, now I'm this heightened thing, but I'm familiar with it because it's how I'm treated on set. Marlon Brando. This motherfucker's having lunch with Marlon Brando on Apocalypse Now as a kid. As an 11-year-old, yeah. Yeah, it's crazy, and I remember it so vividly. Wow. Yeah, and not even, like, knowing. What he was. Well, knowing enough, but not the breadth of his genius. The weight of it.

33:33All the weight of it, yeah. What you had to have clocked was that I'm sure your dad probably acted in a way around him. He probably didn't act around anybody. Like, oh shit, my dad worships this dude. Yes, he was one of dad's inspirations to become an actor. But you talk about those big swings that I seem to just roll with it. Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of that was that really none of it was planned. I never sat down. I was like, okay, I'm going to do a project that looks like this. And if that one goes a certain way, that'll probably open the door to do this other thing. And then, okay, and if that works out, then I've done those two things.

34:04And then obviously the third thing makes perfect sense. None of that ever. It was like just getting a script. Okay, wow, this is a world that I'm excited by. Yeah. This is a character I think I could pull off. Not even excel, pull off. Yeah. So what's the messaging behind that? Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Keep them fooled is the messaging. The imposter thing was part of it. I better make the most of this because that day will come. When they find out. Yeah. When they knock on the door, they're here for your SAG card. Or you're told that, yeah, we figured it out now. And here's the only stuff you're qualified for, which is the chatter the whole time.

34:42You know, at some point they're going to stick me over on something that isn't all this great, big, cool stuff. We've interviewed 500 actors at this point. 455 of them have imposter syndrome. Yeah. And they have imposter syndrome without Emilio as their older brother and without Martin as their father. So your level of it, I have to imagine, is probably pretty fucking extreme. It's probably a little more than the average bear is what you're saying. But I guess that could have gone either way or worked in my favor or against me in that I don't want to say I had something to prove, but the bars were set pretty high.

35:14But also the fruits that I saw connected to matching some of those achievements, that was a big part of it as well. Well, I'd imagine the seminal moment is like your brother has joined kind of the Brat Pack. You write in the book about going out on Hollywood Boulevard with Judd. And Rob. And Rob Lowe and your brother and the woman that was there. I'm trying to remember. Melissa Gilbert was there. Demi Moore was there. Demi Moore. Yeah. Andrew McCarthy was there. Yes. And you and Chris Penn are also there, but you're in the exact same boat. Yeah. The little brothers. And you're just, you're there, but you're also not there.

35:51Like, you know, if the doorman doesn't see your brother nod that you're coming. They're going to lock it as we step up. This really confusing, I would imagine, bit of privilege and then also feeling less than all the time. Sure. It's that you're having more than 98 % of the people, but also even in that spot, you're feeling way less than. For sure. And resentment, was there any? Because I feel like that's a breeding ground for resentment. That would come at the end of the night when everybody went home with someone. Right. And I went home with either Chris or just me, you know? And Chris and I would sit up late at night like, okay, what are we doing wrong, man?

36:25What's missing from this? And he was like, idiot, the big hit movie. Yeah. What's wrong with you? I'm like, yeah, you're right. Okay, okay. How do we make that happen? Right. And then Chris like did. He did Footloose. Footloose. And suddenly he was the toast of the town. Sean saw a screening. I remember I was at his house with my parents and I remember him walking in and saying, holy shit, Chris is going to be a star. Wow. He just like proclaimed it. He announced it. It was really a cool moment. Yeah. And I'm inclined to believe Sean. Yeah, me too. If there's someone whose opinion on my value in that space, it would probably be his.

36:59Yeah, yeah. You take his word just because it's the safer thing to do. I talk about it in the book. I said Chris and I were oarsmen in the same unknown boat. Now I'm rowing that thing alone. Yes. And then Chris and I were still making Super 8 films, even after Footloose. but he had worked on this Vietnam opus for like 10 years. And now that he had gobs of money, he was hiring like special effects crews. Oh, wow. They were still filming with a tiny camera and he's blowing up this river. And I was the DP and I'm literally trying to frame out Colossus at Magic Mountain because we were at that place.

37:35What's that place called? In Santa Clarita? Yeah, it's like Indian something or other behind Magic Mountain. He got a permit to blow up the river. Oh, wow. And everybody was in full fatigues with M16s. Oh, my God. So he took it to like this crazy level. And then he continued to shoot on 8mm. Yeah. Yeah. And just kind of kept me there as the DP. And I'm filming Craig T. Nelson, Eric Stoltz, Sean Emilio, Leon Robinson. Oh, my God. Yeah, there was like a whole. Craig T. was in those? Yeah. Do you know him? I was on a show with him for six years, and I love him. Yeah, he's lovely. So then I was exposed to it or in the presence of it and still not on their side of the camera.

38:15Yes. It can be maddening. Yes. I think, Chris, I'm pretty sure I could do more than that. Get rid of Colossus in the background. Yeah. Those were moments along the way that did inspire and get just that. Chip on your shoulder probably. Yeah. And the fire. The fire and the fever and all of it. You knew you were creating wreckage. Sure. You knew you were scaring people that loved you. Sure. At what age? When is this starting? You're an addict from the jump, yeah? I mean, you're pretty much. Yeah, but there were long breaks. Right. It sounds like you got pretty in line to work, as did I. Sure. But the time I would give myself as it progressed would shrink.

38:52And I'm like, all right, I'm going to need two months in my 20s. I would commit to it and show up shining like a new dime, right? Yeah. And then I was like, ah, that's a three-week prep. Right. That one, no problem. And then that turns into, all right, so it's Friday. we're shooting on Monday my call time is 5 I've got to shut it down by 11pm oh my god the math we get into oh my god and the negotiations once you pass 10pm the amount of math that starts happening every 5 seconds until it's 5am is a class I never attended no it's nuts and then I have this thing about the speed of the time the rate at which it vanishes from like 1am to 6 I think it's like 100 times faster than 9 p.m.

39:38to, say, midnight. Couldn't agree more. Okay, good. Even when I have fantasies, as I do, because I'm an addict, of how I could use successfully, my conclusion is I just needed to start at 10 a.m. There you go. If I just started at 10 a.m., I probably could have made it to sleep by 2 for the 5 a.m. call. Which is doable. It got to the point during anger management where I was taking the 15-minute reset nap just to hypnotize myself or meditate into a place of, okay, none of that happened. I know what's in front of me. I can pull this off. They'll know something's up, but they won't know to the extent of how high it's up.

40:16I will nap at lunch. You're kind of problem-solving. But you're not, right? You trick yourself into saying you are. Right, you cobble together something that you think is a solution. Will you tell her about the time that you're visibly falling asleep on camera? Yeah, I don't know where that came from. I think it came probably from some sexual behavior that I'd heard about, right? But I'd never done it. She's like, what the hell? No, I want to know. What are we on the doorstep over here? I was filming a movie in Canada called Free Money. I've been going way too hard. And it was like midday and I had this scene in a cafe or a diner.

40:53And I was trying to get through it. It wasn't so much about the dialogue. It was about the level of fatigue. And I thought I was keeping it together. and the director, between takes, he walks up and he says, hey, man, I see you falling asleep on camera. Oh, my God. Monica, in the take. Yeah, and I've never done heroin, right? Right. And that's like a heroin thing. Or even Suboxone, which is like contemporary methadone. Yes. I'm telling her, and she's your co-host. No, sorry. She doesn't know about Suboxone. No, I do. I've seen all these drug documentaries I know about. Okay, okay. And over-prescribed everywhere on planet Earth and needs a closer look at that shit, right?

41:24Yeah, yeah. And so I said, okay, my bad. I need a cup of ice. Bring me a cup of ice. He's like, okay, what do you want to drink? I'm like, just the ice. And he's like, okay. I said, give me a minute. So I go into the bathroom. I'm like, okay, I've heard about this somewhere else, but for sexual reasons, I'm going to stick an ice cube up my butt. No. Yeah, and I'm pretty sure, and it was a good size one. I didn't want it to melt. You got one of those big round ones they make for whiskey. If I see it in the cup, I'm like, no, no, no. I need a racquetball-sized piece of ice. Can you imagine? Yeah, and I keistered it like I was sneaking drugs into prison, right?

42:03And it was suddenly wide awake because it was so uncomfortable. Of course. It was so cold. Not to mention the clenching you were probably going to keep it in. Yeah, also the leaking. Yeah, you're just leaking. You're now peeing. Right. Because it melts. I was in like a conductor's jumpsuit. The overall thing tells you the quality of the movie, right? And I came back to set and I'm like, let's do this. You're so aware. Let's do this, man. Monica, there's footage of these takes. in the movie, which is incredible. Yeah, and then I've got sort of the melty clock going, right? Like, how many takes is he going to need?

42:35We got through it. And I think after that, I wasn't like, oh, I better go get the ice cube out. Sure. Because we've all thought about the perfect crime. You know, you shoot somebody with an ice cube. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Ice bullet. That's right. And then there's no ballistics, right? So I'm like, okay, it's just going to vanish. There will be no ballistics in this crime scene, right? And so we made the day. When I saw that scene in the doc, I'm like, why didn't they just send me home? Right. That guy's not well. Yeah. And I'm not passing the buck. I'm not saying like, oh, shame on them. But there was like a hole, and I talk about it in the book.

43:09It gets there later on about this string of movies that I did in a state that was destroyed. I have directed something where somebody was so fucked up that I just had to switch to, okay, how do I get them through this? They have a ton of dialogue. Okay. You're on a phone call. I'm behind the monitors and I'm seeing every single line and they're repeating them. And then I come up with another solution and the next thing. Wow. You know, I got a million dollars to make a car chase movie. I can't send him home. I got to get through this. And what condition was that actor in when you met them for the job?

43:41I had some concerns. They were a close friend. And then even worse, after this terrible day of filming, I said, look, dude, I know exactly what's going on. Right. He said, yeah. So then, probably even worse, he quit cold turkey opiates. So then for the rest of the movie, I'm dealing with someone detoxing. Fuck. Okay, I had this experience at a hotel down the street where there was a kid, 21 years old. His parents are famous. That's an understatement, but continue. Yes. He would get so fucked up every day. I'd go there to work and I would see him. And one day, it was so bad. He was falling over.

44:21He almost knocked his head open. He was scaring everyone, you know? Was it booze? Was it dope? I don't know. When she described it, I think he was definitely benzoed out. Got it. Okay. And drinking. Like overly Xanaxed and then drinking sloppy, tranquilized. He was like falling out. He would just like fall over and then come back to. It was so scary looking to someone who doesn't do that. And my friend went up to the bartender and was like, dude, this guy's not okay. But you were in a public place. Yes. Oh, I thought you were like at his apartment or restaurant. They were at a hotel, bar, and restaurant.

44:52Got it. Okay. They went up and they were like, you know, this person is not okay. And they were like, oh, he's my friend. He's my neighbor. It's okay. And he was like, well, first of all, I know that's not true. And also, does it matter? He needs help. Right. That guy was like, okay, that's a bartender. What can he do? Right? So my friend went to the manager and said, you need to get this person help. They need to leave. This is bad. And they were like, do you know who he is? And he was like, I don't care who he is. This is a problem. But that's the way a lot of people operate, right? Like, do you know who he is?

45:24We can't kick him out. We can't tell him anything because he's famous. Right. And I think that's what. What might have been happening behind the scenes. People might have been saying, we got to get him home. But then people are like, but we can't because it's Charlie. My whole takeaway from that whole thing was, you guys think you're doing him a favor by not kicking him out? He needs help. Right. And no one's telling him or his parents. So like you would have been better off if they had told you to leave instead of letting you continue. Yes. It's this six pack of movies that I talk about in the book and just how one was just worse than the last one.

46:00The behavior was identical across all those different sets. And the only way that I really knew where the hell I was was hotel stationary or a souvenir from the airplane. Oh, that's where we're doing that job. And talk about being untethered. You're like, you really don't even know where you're at in space and time. I got to believe. Let's say, okay, the first three were whatever. And then by number four, it just would have been cool in the first meeting. They just said, the last place you need to be right now is on a movie set. Exactly. Trying to be responsible. Yes, yes. And play make-believe.

46:31Because if you have no consequences, why would you stop? That's the key thing. When the consequences are always sort of negotiable. Right. You know, until they're not. Yeah. One day they become very not. difficult in the moment, but tons of gratitude later that what should have been a stop sign was always yield. And when it becomes a stop sign, it's there for a reason. And I think the thing that people are kind of responding to with the dog, which is really cool. And in some ways, the book, they're getting this story from the guy and they shouldn't be. They should be getting it from an educated narrator.

47:02And it's all archival and there's sad music and it's an if only story and it's not. And it's cool, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'm sure you have the same agitation when you see how generally recovery gets played in movies by a bunch of people who have no experience with it. It's like, it's so somber. Put Charlie and I together and we'll start talking about this carnage. And it's just because you survived. Right. And it's not happening today. You gotta laugh about it. Like, it's just gotta be funny. Or you would just drown in the shame of all the fucked up shit we did. So you've had a lot of time to reflect.

47:36I'm suggesting things as part of the recipe, right? Like the fraudulence, that's certainly part of it. Sure. What do you think about just how incredibly high the bar was set so quickly? I also think that's problematic. You don't graduate high school. Right. I'm going to give acting a shot. And on a very short time, you're on platoon. And that's bonkers. And then you're 21 and the thing wins fucking best pitcher. And I'm watching that broadcast from New York having just started Wall Street. And then now the cash and prizes are arriving. Right. Those are extremely heightened. Sure. The people that navigate it, I'm so impressed because it's an untenable level of heightened arousal.

48:16It is. And at some point, the cash and prizes kind of wear off. And I think that's where drugs really, I'm supposed to feel elation right now. I have everything I wanted. Where's the elation? Crack gives you elation. Yeah, it does. In a way that no part of the job can. It fills in for the disappointment of the fantasy. Interesting. You're in a dangerous spot. Yeah. that has to be altered. Medicated. There's a thing that I always go back to from my own flame outs and then also witnessing the flame outs of others or even just the behaviors from those flame outs or lack of gratitude or just someone's completely shit the bed.

48:49I always ask myself, and I put this on me too, like, okay, when I was building this fantasy as a child, when I saw like the life of a movie star or I saw it with dad, but my version, my name and lights and my successes, then you're in a weird motel with two bikers and four street walkers. Someone's making a meth run and you're like, wait, I don't do meth. And you're kind of like, where was that in that whole fantasy package? You can't plan that stuff and you can't prepare to avoid it. You know what I just thought of sitting here? What if they always kept the audition process connected in play, like as a mandatory part of getting a job?

49:29Even if your last film made$100 million. Yeah, yeah. You make Brad Pitt read. And you just like, everybody still has to audition. Yeah. Can you imagine? Yeah. I mean, people would flip out. They would never allow it. Almost all of the fantasy is, oh my God, finally, I won't have to go earn it in this awkward situation. That's almost the best part of the fantasy. It is until it isn't. That's the imposter syndrome. Yes. When you're like, oh shit. Okay. So now they just think because of that thing they saw, like I can do this next thing. Huh. Now you're just being trusted. Yes. And treated like a commodity of sorts.

50:06And the first test is on camera. Yes. And usually with people that you respect. You admire. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, whoa. I think they should also re-film day one. Always. Oh. It's like the first pancake. Yeah. Yeah. I think they should make day one, two days. I like that. Get it out of the way. Yeah, because I'll look at stuff on day one that I put in the middle of a movie, and it's like, oh, Jesus, I wasn't even warm. I wasn't even warm. Yeah, yeah. I haven't even moved hotel rooms yet to the one I like. Exactly. So the one I don't like, facing the fire station. Yeah. So these are my fixes for Hollywood.

50:41Yeah, I love that. And they're terrible. They're something. Another thing I'm wondering is a lot of the stuff, it came pretty easily. That's kind of confusing. It did. And some of it was just right place, right time. Yeah. I mean, think about the Bueller thing. The Bueller thing's a trip. And Monica needs a nose. So Jennifer Gray says, hey, come, I want you to be in this movie. Come meet John Hughes. Yeah, and I had worked with Jennifer on Red Dawn. Got it. Okay. She says, hey, there's this one scene. It's a really cool character. And I told the director, John Hughes, that you'd be the right guy for the job.

51:11I'm like, wow, thank you. I think she was dating Matthew Broderick at the time. Uh-huh. She plays the sister. Yes. She got one of the leads. Well, you've seen the movie, right? Yeah, I love it. Classic. So I prepare and I get the scene and my brother Ramon, I'm borrowing all of his punk rock shit to kind of look like that guy. Yeah. You're rubbing ashes on your eyes or something weird. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had to look tired, you know, and I drive all the way down to Long Beach. I meet John Hughes in the parking lot and I'm expecting him to say, great. Okay. So we're going to go over here and we're going to put you on tape.

51:40We'll get back to you. Like normal. Yeah. Yeah. And he's on the move. He's like I describe in the book, a man with a full plate and no time to eat. Right. And so I start walking with him and he's got a couple of assistants with him. He's super busy in the middle of a complicated day. shakes my hand, takes me in for two seconds. Ah, kid, you look great. We'll see you next week. You look great. We'll see you next week. You look great. And I stop and I just kind of watch him walk away. And then the panic sets in. Yeah. You don't know if you can do it. Right. But are you also like, I'm magic? It's a rush.

52:17It's probably all things. It's all things. Like, I'm sure for your ego, it must be like, oh my God, I don't have to do anything. It's a whoa moment, but it's also a, God, if he... had at least seen me read it. Yes. And it was wrong. Then at least I got a place to work from. He had no idea I was going to play this thing. And by the way, among my favorite things you've ever done. Thank you. I mean, you really did the impossible. You kind of walk away with a big chunk of that movie in one scene. I mean, they wrote about you in the reviews saying you were smoldering. It's just so strange. Then, okay, so in that week, it's all in the doc and the book, Dad and I go down to take part in a TV show.

52:58Oh, this is going to blow your fucking mind. That pits actors against athletes, and the card we drew was Michael Jordan. It's a two-on-one versus Jordan. It's a three-part competition. It's free throws, a game of horse, and then a two-on-one. Oh, no. Wait till you hear how it plays out, Monica. I mean, do you want to know or do you just want to watch it? No, I want to know. I want to know. He loves Jordan. We beat him. How is this? No, no, no, no. Not only did he beat him, this is where he has these absolute mythical strokes of magic. Yeah. Charlie hit eight free throws in a row. Did you play basketball?

53:29No, I played baseball. But I shot with dad in the backyard like my whole life growing up. Hit an 18-foot jumper in the two-on-two to win the game. To steal it, yeah. This is not a normal life. He gets out of treatment. He's dead. One of his time is getting out of treatment. Dad picks him up. He wants to just watch baseball. He loves baseball. They stop by this place, and there's grown men playing a game of baseball in a league And because they're them, all of a sudden they let Charlie take an at-bat. First swing, out of treatment, life's over, home run. Of course you're confused. Exactly. Of course you're confused.

54:06You've got like superpowers and then you're superhuman on it. I mean, you're extrahuman and you have superpowers. This is too much to like be holding all at once. But on the drive back from the Jordan thing, I've got the scene with me. On Tuesday or maybe even Monday, I have to report back and do this thing. Yes. And so I read it with dad in the limo, just having done the Jordan thing, working on Bueller. We read it once. I didn't do anything with it. And he stopped me and said, that's it. You've nailed it. And I was confused. I was like, I did nothing. And he said, it took me 30 years to learn how not to do that.

54:40Wow. So that's kind of what I walked in with. And I was really hoping that Hughes was going to be okay with this giant, very specific piece of advice. And he was. But of course, on the day I overslept and I was two hours late and it was like. Really? Oh, wow. Yeah, it was awful. This is an easy theory to make and I want you to tell me if you think there's anything realistic to this, which is these things come incredibly easy to you and something about the subconscious goes, this isn't right and we're going to fix it. And the way we fix it is we're going to destroy it. Some self-sabotage. But this was, I think, before.

55:14Oh, yeah. Yeah. But there's an inkling of it. It's like, how were you on time to get the job? You get the job too easy. You go win a game with Jordan. Somehow you can't fucking wake up on time. That's a good point. Why can't you wake up on time? You make a good point. You weren't late for the thing. Yeah, that's true. You weren't late for that. You know you got that too easy. And now we're late. You have a reason, but it's suspicious. Yeah, it is suspicious. Even sitting here today. It doesn't make sense. Yeah. And a lot of your stuff doesn't make sense. You can't draw it up. Right. You can't plan it.

55:43If you feel fraudulent, self-sabotage definitely feeds into that, I think. If you have imposter syndrome, it's like, I don't really know if I deserve this. So I'm going to, I mean, it's all subconscious. None of it's conscious, but it's like, I might need to put this really to the test. Right. But another extension of that is when you're finally making a bunch of dough, not feeling put on like, oh, now I have to pay for dinner, pay for cars, but wanting to. Oh, you can't wait to. Wanting to just give it away. Yeah. Because now they're giving me too much. I'm being overpaid for what I believe my skill set is actually worth.

56:16Right. And I got to redistribute this or it'd be totally crazy. Exactly. Guilt. Yeah. One of the things I didn't know about you that I got so excited to learn in the doc, and this is so frivolous, but my great, great obsession as a child and to this day is Nick Cage. Oh, wow. Where'd this guy come from? What planet did he drop in on? Nobody knows. Nobody knows. Yeah. But you guys were like best friends, yeah? Yeah. And still are tight. Okay, great. We just don't see each other enough because he does more movies than anybody alive, doesn't he? That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very prolific. How does he have the energy?

56:49What a pairing, you two. Yeah, and we were on this collision course. We found each other for a reason in the way that we did. It was just one of those nights out that I thought would be normal, and it was anything but. What happened? Monica, you remember that my favorite story of him. The plane. Yeah. This is your pilot speaking. That was that night. I'm not feeling well, and I'm losing control of the aircraft. Wow. Charlie had an eight ball tape to his leg. Oh. If it was an eight ball, I could have just had it in my breast pocket. It was a fat bag. Wow. And I didn't want to take off my jacket.

57:25And so I was like, oh, I've seen this in movies. I'll tape it down here. Sure. Did it work? It didn't work. No, it stayed. It stayed. It stayed. I just didn't know we would be encountering federal agents when we landed. Yes. Because of the thing that Nick did. Oh, he did that. Oh, that's what caught it. Yeah, we were just entertaining the airplane. Oh, yeah. Two professional entertainers aboard. Exactly. We were on the PA. Nick hadn't gone yet. There was five of us. We all took the mic and just said stupid things and got silly laughs. Right. And then Nick was last. And he said, this is your captain speaking.

58:01I'm not feeling well. I'm losing control of the aircraft. And the airplane went on tilt. Freaked out. Yeah. Obviously. Yeah. And then the steward walks right up to him and goes, not cool, man. Yeah. Not cool. Which sounds like Nick. Not cool. Exactly. Maybe he was trying to find that common language. Speak his language. It went from there. Luckily, they were fans. Another thing, a yield sign and not a stop sign, right? Yes. The federal agents were fans? Yeah. Of his films, of mine. Yeah. They were like, all right, all right, let's just make sure you never do this again, guys. Charlie got to fly an international airplane on the way home from Japan drunk.

58:43Paris. Paris. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah. The honeymoon. Yeah. It's all in the book and the doc. You're so lucky to be alive. Do you feel that? I do. I was having this thought a few times watching where I was like, man, what is that gap between, you know, why didn't Nick blow up? How can Sean be in the doc pen? And he didn't disintegrate. A lot of us played with fire. Right. And what is that weird little smidgen between you, Downey, but then these other guys who certainly were doing a lot, but they were just one standard deviation above where they coasted. It's not a huge gap. Maybe they were still, are still getting that rush from the work.

59:26I don't think they feel as fraudulent. Interesting. I say that not knowing either of them, but that's just my hunch. Yeah, I think they were just doing it at a level that was so committed. It required a focus I was too lazy to tap into. They probably cared deeply about the quality of the work and maybe the accolades or being recognized as being very, very good. I don't know if you did or not. They had set the bar really high for themselves to then have to top, or at least create performances and find material that would be super unique, very challenging, and different from what they'd just done.

1:00:05I think they had access to better material. They were trusted more with the stuff that required that level. And good for them, because that's the thing I would shy from. I would read a script that was, like, really challenging and way outside. And get scared. Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:00:34the other thing i would argue in addition to being that focused on the commitment is also whatever the pain and angst was, that level of medicating was enough for them to find comfort. And your level of pain and discomfort required the amount you were using. It's not a one size fits all, is it? It's not. What was the very hardest thing for you to talk about in the documentary? It was the sex stuff. Again, it was that thing of the way something exists up here and feels in here and finally comes out. And it's the story I wrote about how I'd be judged, what was going to happen, and what the results would be, none of it happened.

1:01:10And it feels better out there than it did in there for so long. It's so curious. I like really mulled over. I'm like, yeah, man, to say that, hey, I've had sex with guys along the way. It's so weird because if I had met you as gay or met you as bi, there's nothing there. What's so weird or interesting is like, but I had him in this category. It kind of speaks to how inflexible our, well, this is a story. because I had him in this category. And it's just kind of a testament to how that aspect is interesting. It was pretty crack-fueled. I don't say that to excuse it or be like, oh, only that thing.

1:01:47Because even if there's an intense drug involved, it still has to open a door of a room that already exists, right? Maybe, or maybe not. I'll just give you one example. Our favorite podcast we've ever heard in our life, we share it, is this episode of Radiolab called Blame. And this man who was married and happy and a normal guy, he got this procedure because he had epilepsy and they cut a corridor in his brain so the two sides couldn't fight. Oh, damn. And in the process of doing that, they cut the circuitry from your central brain, your pleasure, all that stuff, the circuitry to your frontal lobe that says like, oh, yeah, I desire that, but that's insane.

1:02:21We're not going to do that. Right. That got cut. This woman who's lived with this husband gets a knock at the door. She goes downstairs. The Homeland Security is there because he is consuming a tremendous amount of pedophilia. Pornography. Child pornography. And she's like, what? That's not my husband. And as they point out in this book, that part of the brain, the reptilian brain, it just wants everything that's an option. Wow. Basically, the part they tinkered with released. He had no inhibition. Wow. And it's such an interesting question because it's like, is it his fault? They performed a surgery and now he's different.

1:02:59And there's a medication that can put him back to normal, but he has to serve his time for this thing. Oh, seriously. Wow. Which he does. It's very complex. It's very complicated. But the brain and chemicals, they really can change a person. For sure. Crack, it ignites the reward circuitry, and you just get stuck in the reward circuitry. Honestly, anything's on the table. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Given a long enough time horizon. Right. And I use the metaphor of the menu, that I'd exhausted one side of the menu. Like, basically everything. Yes. From every appetizer to every entree, every freaking, all of it.

1:03:31Yes. And finally just went, oh. There's more on the back. What's all this? Yeah. And the company I was keeping was mostly women in the adult film profession. Yeah. And so they're doing jobs during the day and coming back telling stories about stuff that's only on that other side. Exactly. And I'm like, oh, wait, so you can put that? And they're like, of course we can. I didn't have to be done secretly. They were just part of it. All right, this is what we're doing. Yes, yes. It was a relief to talk about it. I bet. And the reason I did for a couple of reasons. for myself first and foremost, but prepping for the documentary, the director, Andrew Renzi, who I think is a freaking genius.

1:04:10Look what this guy put together. That's incredible. What the hell? He said, look, man, at some point we got to get into this other thing. The amount of research, he scraped the internet or dove into it in a way like he was an AI program, you know, and found a lot of stories and rumors and stuff about me and said, hey, this is stuff that people have talked about for a long time. How do you feel about us taking a peek at that? And I said, all right, Sure. Good for you. Thank you. But because right when we finished my interviews for the doc is really when I was able to really sit down and start the book.

1:04:39I knew, all right, so it's already going to be in the other thing. And if it's not here, and the other thing was that with that amount of crack, if that story or those experiences weren't part of that journey, people would be like, um, it usually goes there. Yes. This is what we know from being in the rooms. It's like, You hear someone tell a story and you're like 90 % there. It's like, well, that's interesting. Yeah. A hundred out of a hundred other people end up cheating on their wives when they're in that situation. But you didn't. Yeah. So I didn't want to create that vibe that something stinks.

1:05:13Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there was that part of it. The way it is working out. I think it's cathartic. Yeah. And it's humanizing. Like, I think people. Right on. Thank you. Especially celebrities and especially you. You've been, you know, splashed all over the news. People have ideas about you. And when they hear these stories, like, he's a person with some extraordinary life highlights. I had a pretty good line on a show a few weeks ago. I said, well, I guess I just really wanted to have even more in common with Richard Pryor, Marlon Brando, and Mick Jagger. Exactly. All your heroes. Right? What are we doing?

1:05:46Okay, the part of the doc that was the hardest for me to watch was the Hundred City live tour. At the height of the Tiger Blood. Yeah, it was awful. Is that the worst? Yeah, that was hard for me to watch. Because you're now confirming what you feared, which is your show sucked. It was 21 cities. I'm sorry. Sorry, but in 30 days. It's too much. You don't have a show. It hasn't been written. And guess what? You're dead in front of the people you're disappointing. Yeah. And this fear that was in the back of your mind, the fucking shadow that's always told you you sucked, you're now sucking. Oh, yeah.

1:06:20In real time. I don't know how you continued to keep doing the lie. I mean, of all the crazy endurance you have, that's the one where I'm watching that and I'm like, oh my fucking God, if I had to go bomb every night. Cringe city, yeah. I might be suicidal. But did you care or were you like, you know what, I'm just going to go do drugs? Were you even present enough to care? No, I was off all the drugs. Oh, you were. That's the thing. But I wasn't off a specific one, which was testosterone. Your numbers were 4 ,000. They were, I mean, that's unheard of. Oh my God. That's unheard of. It's a roid rage.

1:06:53That's really what that whole thing was. But I guess there were still traces because to just stop everything, just to prove a point, it still was in my system. Your brain was not well. No. And then I was adding crazy cream all over my body. And then like, well, let's take this thing on the road. Now, granted, I could have said, no, that's a bad idea. But then they start throwing out the numbers and they start feeding the ego. And then the first thing sells out in like 11 minutes. And you're like, all right, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The people want to see this. And they're like, see what? See what?

1:07:21Okay. I tried to build the show at my house for like a month. Oh, wow. Like all these brilliant comedic minds coming by. Yeah, Todd was there, Phillips. Yes. I wasn't listening to anybody. I was just going to do it my way. You know, you're going to wing it. What was the pain of that on stage when the fun of it wore off? The rubbernecking spectacle wore off. Sure. They're turning. They hate this. I'm stuck on the stage. It was between cities. It was the trudge to the next city knowing. Dude, I can throw up. I know, right? And then they brought in Jeff Ross. Oh, thank God. who brought comedy and just some life to it.

1:07:55But then he had other stuff he had to do. So we do like five shows and people seem happier about it. Less disappointed. Yeah, they didn't have to cut out. I'd be back on my own. And that's why in the book, I don't write about the tour. I write about on the eve, what took place before the first show in Detroit. That's how I feel about the tour. I clogged the toilet in the hotel because I'd been so backed up. And I had two girls in the other room that I was traveling with. And that drug keeps you very frisky, right? Correct, we'll say. Testosterone, that's literally the point of it. And so the only way back to that fantasy was for that toilet to flush.

1:08:38And it wasn't. And so I had to build something to get to it. Oh, boy. I know. I know. But if you think about the symbology of everything, right? It's 100 pounds of shit in a five-pound toilet. Yeah, literally. So that's why that is the only story about that freaking tour. Wow. Yeah. And I'm glad that at least it's covered in the dock in a way where people can go on that journey. I think if you're a performer, you're watching that and you're just like, oh my gosh, kill me. I mean, it's literally your nightmares when you get into this. Yeah. You kind of walked through a nightmare for a while. That's interesting that you point that out.

1:09:14Yeah, man. That killed me. Wow. Because you're confirming the fear you've had since you were 20 years old. Interesting. Your subconscious, your shadow, you brought yourself to your greatest fear. I suck. You proved it to yourself. I did. It's not the embarrassment of this or the interview on the talk show. Right. It's the actually bringing your fear to life in the most palpable, real way is wild psychologically. And making a false promise to those people that they were in for a night of fun and folly, you know? Yeah. that's why I descended into just a pit of complete darkness and went silent after I got home from that I thanked everybody for their time and just decided to enlist a whole new crew and that's when all the other shit started I needed to get so freaking numb I have three more questions I'm going to try to get in quick because you've given us so much of your time and I love it and I'm sorry that every question turns into like this long no that's what we love that actually never really even answers the fucking question This is exactly what we like.

1:10:14The one question I have, and this is just nosy, but the one thing I was a little wanted from the doc, and I'm not to that point in the book, is what's happening financially? You made so much fucking money. Do you not still make a lot of money on 2.5 Matt? I don't. Were those like buyouts of residuals? Based on choices that I made during anger management, I came to this place where everybody thinks that, oh, because that contract and all this, I think I only did eight episodes at that fee. That crazy fee, okay. Which is still more than. Sure. Anyone deserves. Yeah. I had a crooked business manager at the time.

1:10:46I said, I haven't felt rich. I want to feel rich. So I want to buy an airplane, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like, well, no, just charter. I'm like, no, no, no. I can buy half of this one airplane. He's like, well, the front or the back? I'm like, fuck off, right? So I did that and I got this giant line of credit and then lived like a rock star. A billionaire. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And loved it until. I got to tell Monica, he was spending$15 ,000 to$30 ,000 a day on crack. It was a lot. Can you compute that? There was a moment, and it's in the doc, and it's pretty cool, and it's in the book, where my supplier, my middleman was a guy named Marco, terrific guy.

1:11:23And his South of the Border connection was where it was coming from. And they, at one point, said, we got to talk to your guy because we didn't give him permission to be a dealer. He's a customer, not a distributor. Yeah, exactly. And it was this moment where we had to convince them. I'm smoking it. It's all for me. Yeah. They were like, oh, okay. Well, geez. Carry on, good man. Is he okay? But carry on, good man, for sure. Every fiddler at some point needs to get paid for those dances. And it came time to pay off that line of credit. And the only asset I had was my back end on two and a half, which would pay in increments quarterly.

1:12:02Six people had their hands in it. Yeah. So by the time it got to me, it was still more money than anyone deserves. Yeah. 10 ,000 people could live on, but it still didn't satisfy. Yeah. Crazy. And so I chose to not be held hostage by the bank and just sold that and paid that and just wiped the slate. I understand the decision. Yeah. And the universe plays fair sometimes. And I think a lot of that stuff was taken from me because the excesses that it was funding. I was not a good steward of it. The universe has a way of taking things away that you're not a good steward of. And I think the reduction, the night and day, like, shutdown of that kind of earning power or at least access to it, I think that's another thing that saved my life.

1:12:43Yeah. You know, when I quit drinking, I think it's covered differently in the book than it is in the doc. I was at a place where it was okay to just reattach myself to very basic things. And at the same time, the most important people in my life. Children, family. Yeah. Old friends. Yeah. And so I didn't need that kind of wealth to feel rich with all these kids who suddenly didn't care about a TV rating or a salary thing. Well, you had this most beautiful moment in the dock. And this is where it's just absolutely gut-wrenching and beautiful, which is his daughter had to be somewhere. And he would never drive her drunk.

1:13:21And he sent his driver. And he had joined her. And they're together with a driver. Well, it was Tony Todd. He was actually my best friend. Oh, yeah. He was the most lovely guy. What this guy went through. What he's seen. Never, ever used and was along for the whole ride to make sure Charlie didn't die. Yeah. Beautiful dude. So, so much. It was a hair appointment that I had just completely forgotten about. And I'm a Virgo and I don't forget a lot of stuff. Yeah, but when you disappoint a child, that's the worst feeling in the world. When's your birthday? August 24th. Oh, okay. I'm September 3rd.

1:13:51Oh. Yeah. Close. So it was just this moment coming home in the car. And, you know, we were on time. Thanks to Tony. Sam got her thing taken care of. I was in the front seat and I could see her in the mirrors. I could see her on the side and also in the visor. And I just saw her back there. And I'm not clairvoyant, but I could feel the thoughts about, why isn't it just me and dad? Yeah. How old was she? 12 or 13. Okay. Why isn't it just me and dad like it used to be? Had an awakening. I have to make a decision, decisions to never have this happen again. Like a sacred vow to the forces that I believe in.

1:14:25You can call it God. And did. There was another thing in the mix. That's what started. That was the catalyst for sure. It was that just one really beautiful, magical, cosmic freaking moment. And it happened in such a simple circumstance. It's not a third act resolution. It's not cinematic. It's so tiny. That somehow breaks through in that moment, which is suspicious and interesting. Yeah. The biggest thing showed up in, I don't want to call it the smallest moment. But there's no yelling. She didn't go, dad, why don't you love me? You just looked at her and you saw it all. Just knew. And then right after that, there had been some advances with the HIV meds.

1:15:03They said, look, we want you to change your cocktail. I'm going to shrink it and try these two new things. But here's the kicker. You can't drink on this one. The other, you could drink your face off. And they worked fine. As you've been doing. Why did they tell me that? Why did they tell me that? I said, all right, I'll not drink for a month and see how the pills are working. And they were working great. I was like, okay, let's do another month. That just turned into a thing. Wow. Sam started it. But then this other thing that was like my life was at stake. I'm not saying it wasn't with the other shit, but they showed up at the same time.

1:15:35Wow. And I don't believe in coincidences. You kind of asked for help from the universe and it gave it to you. Exactly. Here's my hardest question. Oh, Jesus. This is the last one. This is the last one. Those were easy ones? I weeded out one of them. This is the last one. So I am watching this doc and I'm just falling in love with you. And I know everyone that will watch it will fall in love with you. And I know everyone that will watch this will be in love with you. Right on. And the pattern's so insanely obvious. It's like ridiculous. The pattern is you get a ton, you fucking obliterate. You got nothing.

1:16:09You somehow get a ton, you obliterate it. And so I'm watching it and I'm loving you. And I know how everyone's going to feel. And I know you're going to have another opportunity to go be brilliant on a sitcom. Thank you. Or a film or whatever it is. Yeah. And that terrifies the fuck out of me. Interesting. Wow. I'm so scared for you to be given all the shit again. Are you afraid of? I'm not. Has it crossed your mind? Of course. Okay, okay. Of course. Yeah, no, I'm cautious about it. I even thought of my own role in this. Like, do I want to play a role in it? And getting people to love you and root for you and let you be back up there where I do think you have the talent to be and deserve.

1:16:47Do I want to play a role in that? I don't ever want to see you on TV again fucked up. Me neither. And I literally had to think ethically, like, do I want to be a part of this process? Because I now love this dude from afar. Wow. And you understand that. And I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I haven't been in a professional environment in a long time where I was there for all the right reasons, that I was contributing in a high stakes, creative environment. With the right intention. Yeah, man. It's not about proving it. It's just about feeling that again. by feeling that I think there's proof in that, that he's back here for the right reasons.

1:17:23And I think the work will show that, whatever that work turns out to be. Let's put it this way. We have a great adage in our secret society, which is doing the same thing over and over again and then expecting different results is the definition of insanity. So I guess my curiosity is as you enter into that, the game plan has to already be a place. Like, oh, what are we going to do differently this time? We're not going to wait till we're there to figure out what we're going to do differently. We're going to know what we're doing differently before we get there. Yeah. It's not my place to challenge you like this.

1:17:52It's just as someone who loves you and is in this fellowship, I want to know that there's a game plan that we don't wait till we wake up. Sure. I'm going to honor my word. That's what it comes down to. Honor my word to myself. Honor my word to the job, to the people that are trusting me with that job. That's what's different. Things change at 60. Right. It's like you start figuring out, okay, 10 ,000 days. What's that? It's like 27 years or something. then how do I really want to spend those? Yeah. Because I know what the other 10 ,000 looked like. Yes. And how I felt and just what came out of that.

1:18:24It doesn't fit anymore. There's no place to do it sneakily. You know what I'm saying? There's no place. There's no real estate for it. No, you can't even carve out a little niche or some opportunity or some secret moment. It can't be a part of it. I just adore you. Oh, thank you. Likewise. You're so fucking lovable. And I'm just thrilled to see you doing so well. I really am. Thank you. No, this is incredible. And I didn't even remember that you made a joke at my expense. Well, yeah, no. I'm thrilled that I got to close that song. Well, Charlie, I adore you. Please come back. Yeah, come back. I'll come back.

1:18:57Sure. I'll come back and talk about the thing that I didn't screw up. Yes. How about that? That's right. I look forward to that. That would be cool. Yay. Thank you. Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.

1:19:17Oh, just got back from a hike. Third, third morning in a row. Wow. Yeah. That's fun. Friend of the pod is visiting. Yeah. One of my premier boyfriends. Yeah. Vincent D 'Onofrio. My biggest and sweetest. Yeah. He's so nice. Yeah. We were talking on the hike and he was expressing some confusion by why any women have liked him. And I said, oh, it couldn't be more obvious. Yeah. It's so obvious. He's such a nice boy. He's so big and protective, yet you sense that he needs some nurturing. Yeah, it's a good combo. What could be more appealing? Yeah, it's a very appealing combo. I feel it towards him.

1:20:03Yeah, I know. Yeah, God, is he a sweetheart. Okay, well, I have something to talk about. Oh, wonderful. I'm going to the airport. Oh, not wonderful. I'm sorry. I thought it might be something different. It's okay. Oh, wonderful. It's okay. I'm going to the airport. Two things about that. One, I'm in my airport outfit. It's very cute. Thank you. It's an exceedingly cute outfit. You have your Polo Bear shirt on that you love. You have to think things through when you like fashion and you go to the airport. Right. It's a big coming out party, right? Yeah. People like really dress specifically. And I never do that.

1:20:41I always just wear sweats. Yeah, yeah. But I've been thinking more about trying to look cute at the airport. Sure. It seems like a really fertile place for a meet cute. Exactly. Where you go into, there's all these built-in questions. Yeah. Maybe you're on the same page like, oh, I hate delays. Even better, you're delayed and you're watching someone lose their shit. And you look over and there's like a cute guy who's also thinking like, oh, this person's berserk. And then you go like, huh. I see you. Yes, we both, we recognize that. So now we're on the same team. We're on that we're sane team.

1:21:11That's right. It's a great place to start. We're sane. But I don't want to be we're sane. We're sane. We're sane. Yes, yes. Same, same. And although I don't know about, you know, commiserating over someone else's misery. Not their misery. Their behavior. Their shitty behavior towards the clerk at the gate, whatever we're calling it. Gate attendant. Yeah, that's right. Injustice. Yes, yes, yes, yes. or to be embarrassed for someone as good. Sure. I am in first class. Like if you saw someone yelling like, oh, yeah. I paid$2 ,300 for this ticket. And you'd be like, oh, and then you'd look over, you'd be going just like this, like, and you'd look over and the guy would be like this.

1:21:55And then you go, oh, this is cute. We're both. What's your name? What is your name anyways? Anyways.

1:22:06Well, I hope that happens. Yeah. That would be a great turn of events. Yes. But anyway, part of the airport outfit situation for me, though, is I'm really not—I do—this maybe is the only time I really prioritize comfort as well. Of course, yeah. And so I have to wear some sort of tennis-like shoe, some sort of comfortable shoe. Uh-huh. And pockets. I had on other pants, and I realized, nope, I had to put on these. These are less cute than the ones I had on. They're still cute pants. I meant hard to believe, but okay. They're still good pants. To get your word. But pocket. But what scares me about these trousers you're wearing is, sure, pockets, but so flowy.

1:22:45Doesn't everything fall immediately out of these pockets when you sit down? No. It's mainly, and it's not mainly for the sitting. It's walking through the airport. I like to have my phone in my pocket, not in my bag. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And sometimes. And your ticket? Yeah. My ticket or my wallet. Yeah. Is that unsightly? Yeah. I don't know if I'm allowed to say that anymore in 2024. But yeah, so I am. When you're having your meet cute with the guy, I want you to go like, oh my gosh, I'm so embarrassed. You've caught me with my wallet in my pocket. And I don't want you to hold that against me. I don't normally.

1:23:21I don't normally do that. It's an airport thing. What are your airport things? Yeah. Oh, wow. And then you realize for that first time he's holding a sphere or something or whatever you call it, a staff. And he goes this. And you're like, oh my God, I didn't even see that. Yeah, you're holding like a four foot staff. What's that about? Right. I thought you were just a wizard. Oh, my God. That's so exciting. I can't. Go ahead. No, no. You can go ahead. We'll circle back. No. I don't want to. This is going to take up a lot of the conversation, so I assume this is probably not. Okay. Have you seen the photos by chance of Eric's dad traveling the world?

1:23:58Oh, some. Yes. Friend of the pod, Eric Richardson. Yes. His dad has, like, just been gone for a year. He started in Ecuador for a while. He was living in Peru. So now I got this picture of him in Egypt. Can you see that? Oh, my gosh. And he does walk with the staff. Yeah, he does. Well, he's older. Yes, and I'm going to show you one more. Look at this. And he's doing cute things. He's holding up glasses in front of the sphinx. He's doing such cute things. Yeah. He's like, you know, when you're like pinching, you're, how do you say this? There's like a forced perspective where you are pinching something far in the distance.

1:24:34Yeah, acting as if you're holding it. Yes, and he's got sunglasses on the Sphinx. But I took a couple look at those photos and I said, he is a wardrobe away from being a wizard. Look at this photo I made. Oh, you made that. That's really cute. Doesn't he look so cute as a wizard? He does. Did you add the beard or was that? No, that's his real beard. Wow, yeah. All he has is a crushed felt cape and a crushed felt vest. So the first one I did, by the way, this was insanely easy. Okay, first of all, I'm impressed. I assume you did this via AI? I did. I did. And I had never done this. I've had it create images like, I want a Chevy van with cool wheels.

1:25:14Right. This was, I uploaded the photo of him and I said, can you put a wizard's cap and a purple cape on this man? Yeah. And within 25 seconds, there it was. And it looks really good. It looked really good. I was really proud of it. I sent it to Eric. Yeah. And then the second photo, I was like, I'm going to give this thing a little more liberty. Instead of saying, I just said, make the man in this photo look like a wizard. And then AI put him in a vest and put a little glowing thing on his sphere. Oh, my. Did a great job. Wow. It looks like something someone great at Photoshop would have spent a week on.

1:25:49Exactly. When you first said you made it. You were suspicious. Yeah. I was like, you made that? That's weird. It's not even fair to say I made it. That's the ethics around this. But you did. It didn't exist until I got involved. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Okay, just the staff made me think of that. That's really cute. Well, it's actually sort of a ding, ding, ding because Eric's dad is older and he's in Egypt. Yeah. Like he's out and about. He's really. He's a young friend. Yeah, he's a young friend and he's not letting life like get him down. He's pinching the pyramid. That's so wonderful. I know.

1:26:27And I really love people who are really just like taking life on. And for me, it makes me really optimistic. Like, wait, I could have an adventure like that still in 40 years from now. Yeah. It's very life affirming. I love that. And okay, so I have bad news personally. Yeah. There was a sudden pretty tragic death in my family on my dad's side. My aunt drowned. It's a really weird thing to say. It is. My first question to you was like, is there foul play? That's so weird. Yeah. And of course they did have to rule that out. She was older too, but also very like Eric's dad. She would travel all the time and she, yeah, it was very like vital and enjoying life.

1:27:26So it was very, it was just very shocking on so many levels. Yes. And my parents had just seen her a couple months ago and she was, um, thriving. Yeah. So yeah, my mom, she, you know, I'm so bad at this. Like when I'm sleeping, I don't hear the phone ringing. I just don't hear it. So I didn't hear it. They obviously called me and then I woke up to texts of course. And my mom was like, aunt Lily died. I'm that's my, I'm named after her. Yeah. Call me, call me, you know, and I was like, of course, expecting like some sort of heart attack or natural, more natural. Yes. Cause. So of course it's all very shock.

1:28:07Everyone's in shock. And I'm leaving today, obviously to go be with my family. In the great state of Washington. Yes. That's where she lived and where her daughter lives. You're going at the perfect time of year. I think it'll be nice. No, they always, September's always the nicest month in Washington. Okay, that's good. It's their warmest month. It's very Indian summer, always there. Wow, Indian, ding, ding, ding. Oh, wow, double entendre. Yeah, she was Indian. She was Indian. For people who don't know. But yeah, so it's been a lot to process and deal with. And, but, you know, she really is an inspiration.

1:28:46She was a single lady. She did a lot of things. Very successful. Extremely successful. She came to this country. She went to like the best business school in India. Then she came to this country and she started all these businesses. And she was very successful. She brought my dad over. Yeah. He lived with like, you know, she kind of like shepherded him. As much as I know about your family, this was a revelation when you told me she had come first. Yeah. And brought your dad over. Yeah. Since you've told me that, it's funny what things, what little details can all of a sudden explain so much. Like there's a lot about your dad.

1:29:25Yeah. That was an enigma to me. Oh. And not knowing that piece of the puzzle. This is kind of like Saul, like his respect and deference for women. Yes. Don't kill me. Coming from a culture that maybe sometimes that's not the, you know. Sure. I just think he's uniquely. Yeah. Not threatened by a strong woman. His wife was a gangster and he supported it. And I'm like, oh, yeah, he had a badass sister who actually paved the way for him to come here. Yes. I get it. Now I get it. Yeah. Yes, that is correct. And mother who allowed all that to happen, too. Right. But, yeah, my dad is a little brother.

1:30:10He's the youngest of all these kids. Yeah. He's little brother energy. Oh. And he has - You should like it more than that. I hate it. But I can still eye roll at it. But I like that he's a little brother. He and Neil must have a shared language to some degree. Well, they have older sisters, older successful sisters. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You must see Neil in a unique way. Probably. I've never even really thought about that. I don't know if he's even thought about that. Like I see Delta in a unique way. Because I was a little sibling. Exactly. And I know what she's going through. Yeah. that's very interesting yeah probably yeah um but yeah he he you know obviously has a very special relationship with her so I was and then you know I'm like worried about my dad and it's all it's just all it's like so much and and then you know and then there's guilt because I'm like oh like oh like I get kind of mad at all of it like this is so upsetting like why this happened this is I hate, this is inconvenient.

1:31:17Sure, sure, sure. Like, death is really inconvenient. It rarely falls on spring break or. And then that's inconvenient in its own way. Like, you know, it's not. There's never a great time. There's never a great time. Let's take one second, though. If we had to pick. Mm-hmm. The time. I have the time for me. Okay. January 2nd. Your birthday? Yeah, but it's already the shittiest day. Everyone's already like, you've already had all the fun you can have. And it feels so long before you're going to have something fun again. It's like, yeah, let's just throw it in there because it's already going to be a slump.

1:31:53So let's just do it then. I think that's the ideal. You don't want it leading into summer. You don't want it over one of the holidays. Right? What about the third? So at least you got one more. You were one age older. That's fine. Well, I would still be one age older on the second because that's officially one age. I don't know if I count it. We don't want to ruin New Year's Day. No. Right. We got to watch football that day. The second is the shittiest day of the year. I think objectively. No, I don't like any of this because then it's like the year starts with this horrible thing. Then in my head, I'm like, this is the worst year.

1:32:32It's a bad year. That's a fair pushback. So maybe the 31st or, well, maybe the funeral on the 31st so that you can start. On New Year's Eve? Well, I just want to. No one wants to go to a funeral on New Year's Eve. Okay, the 28th or something. You want to go to like a great meal. Because I just want the new year to start clean. Clean. Okay. Okay. Now, I hate what we just did. Okay, so please. My pitch is January 2nd or late April in Michigan when it's like you thought summer came. and then it didn't, now the winner's back and you're already like, fuck all this. Again, throw it there where you're already going to be miserable.

1:33:13So just cap out the misery when you're already experiencing it. Don't taint any of the joy. Okay. Put it all in one bag. I see what you mean, but also it could really push someone over the edge if they're already feeling miserable. To the breaking point. Yeah. And so we don't, I don't, I think we need to rethink some of it. Although, okay, this is fun. I think there's a limit of how shitty you can feel. Like I've hit it before, right? It's like, I feel so shitty. Yeah. And then like, I'm just at the bottom for long enough that I go, I don't even know what the actual switch is that flips, but I go, yeah, that's it.

1:33:49I can't feel any better and I can't feel any better any longer. I just almost like I get fatigued of being so shitty. Yeah. But I know what you mean. And I have felt that. But I've also like I have thought if one more thing happens, like my body will not be able to take it. Like it's already I can feel my nervous system is like really teetering. Yeah. And if if if we get another something. Critical mass. I don't know. Then I'll die. And then my dad will be. Oh, my God. Imagine that. No, that's not even ever. Okay. You're knocking on a lot of things that don't necessarily deserve knocking, but that one shouldn't be said.

1:34:31Whatever. Anywho, so she was very special to him and very special in general. And she did things her own way and she did a lot of things Indian people don't do. She got divorced. Yeah, good for her. She, you know, was very independent, you know, had these houses, dyed her hair fun colors. Like she's just a very unique woman. She ever shave her sides? She would have. She definitely would have. We should have had a meal or something. Yeah. Yeah. Very spunky. And, you know, it's not really lost on me that I have a lot of that. Mm-hmm. And that makes me feel proud. But also I'm like, oh, my God, because I'm not going to get into the details of the drowning, obviously.

1:35:26But, you know, she did things her own way and she decided to do things that maybe were not advisable. You know I'm going this way, too. I mean, I know you can't. This is my this is a cautionary tale. You know, I'm going to be 96 and be like, I can hang glide. I never tried it. This is, exactly. This is cautionary tale time because I, like, but, you know, whatever. I guess it's like. But no, right? Because that's what got her to this place where you admire her. I know. That's exactly the whole thing. It's like this thing. Cats do too. Yes. This thing that made her live this very special life is also sort of the thing that.

1:36:08May have taken her down. Yes. But for her, and that's probably the way she would have wanted it. I mean, I don't think anyone would ever want to drown. I mean, that's the thing that's, I think, messing with everyone's head so much is like there was likely suffering. We can imagine how much suffering there would be. And that's horrible. That's brutal. But someone with what I feel like I understand her personality to be and mine. Yeah. If I have the choice of going out in control, something I chose to do versus some crazy disease that just snags my dad, right? Like three months goodbye. Yeah, I'd rather die a year earlier and have it on my terms for me.

1:36:53Yeah. I mean, I hear you. I think, again, there's just so many different personalities. I don't think she probably felt in control when she was drowning. No, but she died by a decision she made. That's right. Not that the universe made for her. That's right. And in some ways, what's what? The universe did make it. Like we, you know, I don't know. I don't know either. And it's been really interesting because, you know, my parent, my aunt, this aunt, Aunt Lily, and my grandpa on my mom's side, sorry, on my mom's side, who passed away a couple years ago. who I was very, very close with. They are the reason my parents are married.

1:37:39They met through work and they were like, let's - They started meddling. Yeah. Let's put these two people together. They might be a good fit. And then my cousin - Do you think they shook on it? Well, no. My cousin sent me, she found this letter. It was from my grandpa to my aunt. Oh, wow. And it has a picture of my mom. Oh. And it's like, you know, it's and it's so special. And it is like. Was he saying what a great catch she would be? I also can't read it very well. It's very scrawly handwriting. So I'm only making out certain words. But it is, you know, you can like my daughter and and my dad's names in there.

1:38:24And it's kind of and it's it's basically like. Let's have them meet and then see if they're compatible and then it's up to them. So it was kind of this like, you know, half, half arrangement, but it's so weird to see that piece of history. Yeah. And even the times are just so different. Like, yeah, if they were now, none of this probably would have happened. They would have gone on each other's Instagram and find four things they don't, they decide were deal breakers. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And yeah. And yeah, it's like this origin story and it's so wild. I really hope. You should write something about it.

1:39:00It feels like there's fun pieces in there to write. Yeah. But, you know, they're both gone now, both of those people. But it led to this, like, beautiful thing. Yeah. And it's special. I know. Wouldn't be here without those two. When you're at the memorial, will you say, My friend Dax wanted to thank you for pulling him out of the financial shadow he lived under his wife? maybe you can send me that in a text I don't know if I'll be able to remember it I'll pull up my phone and I'll read it I had a friend say I thought very poignantly when someone exits the physical world it really just like unearths all the ghosts for the people still here she's like that's the haunting it's not the person coming back It's all your stuff coming up.

1:39:58And I was like, that's right. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, that's that. I'm going to go. We're going to celebrate her life. Great. And then I'll be back. Is it following the guidelines of any existing tradition or will this be its own thing? I'm not sure. Okay. Well, I'll find out. Anyway, so that's my update. Yeah, that's a big update. It's a big update. But, you know, gotta be grateful. Can't imagine you were in a state of mind to go do this, but you didn't happen to see one problem after another, did you? I'm dying to see it. I saw it yesterday. One battle, you mean? Oh, one battle. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

1:40:41One battle after another. Did you see it, Rob? Yeah, I saw it. Did you love it? Yeah, I loved it. It's fucking awesome, man. On a bunch of levels. One, the acting's insane. And this is Leonardo Degas. I don't want to say anything new, but my God, he just will not quit being fucking brilliant. So brilliant. Does it move kind of fast? Because it's long and I, you know, I have some aversion now to long movies. I could not tell it was long. Okay, great. I had not looked at the runtime before I went, but it is mega movie. You're like, you, there's so much in it. Yeah. What were you about to say, Rob?

1:41:16The music in it is incredible too. Music was incredible. It's Johnny Greenwood that did it from Radiohead. Oh, cool. The music's awesome. The needle drops are awesome, like Steely Dan's in it. It's great. Benicio's fucking awesome. Sean Penn is insane. He's absolutely insane. And then, of course, it's a daddy-daughter story. Yeah, I know. Which I didn't even know going in. Yeah. And so, sure, we get to the end of the movie. And I'm like. Don't spoil. I'm not spoiling anything. I just know that I was like watching, watching. I was like.

1:41:56I cannot do these daddy daughter things. I'm like interstellar. I didn't understand one thing that was going on, but I knew that he was going to miss his daughter's life. And I was heartbroken. Interstellar is the is the most like devastating. It's such. And I don't even know what's going on. But I know it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because there's a daddy daughter thing happening. And there's one in this, so it's like, I'm not even sure how, like when I recommend it, I'm like, I don't know. I was moved beyond belief because there isn't anywhere someone could hide on planet Earth. I feel bad for, oh, sorry, Rob.

1:42:34Dads and sons. Dads and sons don't get the same treatment, and it doesn't mean. It's a different thing. We get adolescents. Oh, my gosh. That's the reward. Oh, no. We should have the lessons. Yeah. It's not fair because it's not fair because it's not true. Sons and dads, it's different, but it's still, it's such an important, oh, my God, relationship. What's cool about father-son, with the potentials that's there, is that you can idolize your dad. Yeah. And you can have this little boy who's trying to grow up and be like you, which is so moving, I think. Like I don't have that piece, which sounds fun a little bit.

1:43:20Well, okay. I take it all back. Beautiful boy. Yes. Beautiful boy. Horrible movie. That's adolescence. Yeah. I know. God, it's true. All those stories are just. Yeah. I was wracking my brain. And then I just thought of the other thing, which is like, Hit and Run's on Netflix now. Oh, I know. So exciting. I was so happy. I was so happy to be able to go to Netflix and hit play on the movie. That's awesome. And I wanted to just hit play on the movie. Yes. And then I got completely sucked in. And then the family got sucked in and we watched it again. It was so fun. And then I was even at the end of it, I was like, it's so weird.

1:43:58I chose to do father son in that, which is not is interesting. And I think after seeing the other movie last night, I'm like, I'm not really sure why that was my. Well, the kids weren't born. The kids weren't born. I obviously had unresolved stuff with my dad, I guess. My dad sees me in that movie and the first thing he does is punches me. Right. But I just was like, oh, this is really weird. Like, I don't know that you know what you're processing when you're doing stuff. Yeah. And then after, maybe it makes sense. And maybe even that's bullshit. Yeah. The way you make it make sense. But I don't know.

1:44:31I just like, oh, that's so interesting that that was the device I decided to use to let Annie see Charlie again in a different way, as opposed to doing it with his mom, per se. Yeah. I don't even know where, I don't know if Charlie has a mom in that movie. Like, that's not even the thing I even decided as a writer, right? Yeah, I think there's a, there's a trope, but based on reality, that like, sons and dads can have, that's complicated, and moms and daughters, that's complicated. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, it makes sense in a story when it's complicated. And you want conflict. Yeah, and I think maybe, even though, again, this isn't true, like Rainn Wilson's story, you might be like, a mom wouldn't not want to see the son.

1:45:24Or that wouldn't, like, it's like harder to believe. Yes, yes, yes. Or not be immediately forgiving. But yeah, fathers and sons can get in these wars. Yeah. Or it's just two proud males. And in a weird way, you're always fighting over masculinity. And when does that torch pass? And when do you see me as a real man? And then part of the definition of being a man is like, I don't apologize. And I, you know, and I, so it's like, it's just so right. There's like proving something. Because I think when you're a boy to a mom, you can always be a boy. Yes. But you don't feel like you can be that with a dad.

1:45:58Yeah, but you can. You're trying to show your dad you're a man. Yeah. You want him to look at you and go, you did it. You're a man and I'm proud of the man you are. And then you think the way you'll prove that to him is you will challenge him. Right, which is not. It doesn't go well. Doesn't go well. Doesn't tend to go well. Yeah. Yeah. Boy, I don't. But I'm excited to see that movie. I'm really excited. It's so good. Yeah. It's so good. Oh, yeah. Fuck, it's so good. It kills me that we'll probably never talk to Leo, you know? You know he went on New Heights. With Benicio. With Benicio. And he went on Marc Maron with Brad.

1:46:41Oh, yeah, a long time ago. Yeah. It seems like clear he'll never do a one-on-one. I don't know. I mean, I'm not going to give up on the dream. A lot of dreams have come true, so who knows? Yeah, that's right. But there's a couple people that I just want to folate. I want to, I want them to come in and I want to blow them for two hours. Yeah, but we also need to ask them questions. And you can handle that. But like, I want to do that to Tom Cruise. Yeah. Like I want to have him on and not talk about Scientology and all the other stuff everyone wants. I just want to, I want to tell him what a gift he's given this country for the last 35 years.

1:47:15Well, that is fine. But also remember that when we started this, we were like, doesn't matter. The top of the mountain is not interesting. It's all these other things. It's the human things. So yeah, I don't want him to come on and we berate him about Scientology, but I want to know about him. I do too, but let's just say, if we do a thousand of these, and like five of them are just a celebration of somebody, I also don't mind that. Wow. Yeah, I don't feel like I'll be betraying the covenant so much. I have so much curiosity about who they are without that layer. Yes, and generally, that's my curiosity.

1:47:55Yeah. But it is interesting. There are a handful of people that I am actually so blown away with their work that I'm interested in it because I'm not interested in someone's acting. Right. I don't really care because I do the thing and I don't think it's that incredible. Yeah. But when I think of what Tom Cruise has done so consistently and this thing that Adam Scott told me like when we were bonding over our obsession with him and Adam said his unique talent and I think he said what he does better than anyone's ever done it is he is not acting for himself or for the director, for anything. He's acting for the audience and he understands exactly what the audience needs in every moment.

1:48:35Yeah. The way he, like his mastery of understanding what it's going to be when you're sitting in a seat and watching it on a big screen is like something no one's ever had. And that, I want to know how he gets to that. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:49:02Leo, I'm quite interested because what I've been able to gather in my fascination with him is like, he's not a huge acting technique guy. And that between takes, he's like just totally back to normal immediately. And then it's action. He can pop into that. Like, does he think there might just be Matt? Like, how can he do what he does? I am very curious. Well, I imagine, I mean, he's been doing this for so long at such a high level. Like, Gilbert Grape is a— Two of the fours. Yeah, acting job for an adult that would be impossible to pull off, and he did it as a kid. So I think he's probably had a lot of reinforcement that like, I can do it.

1:49:47Yes. And I read an interview around that time. It was when he had done This Boy's Life, the Tobias Wolf book. Yeah. And I loved that movie. And I had read that De Niro would get frustrated with him because De Niro needs to be grinding and working and processing. And they'd be between these really heavy scenes. And as soon as Leo would be like pulling a prank on somebody. Right. And De Niro is like, focus. He thought he needed to teach this kid to focus, but he didn't need to. Yeah. Because somehow Leo could just always be that. He just probably just, he has trust in himself. I think he might be like a god, like he's an acting god.

1:50:26Like he has a different, or maybe he's got a 47th chromosome or something. There's some mystery there that I need to know about. That's what I want to know, but I don't think that's going to, I think we'd find that out in like his family. Like, I wanted to know about his family. That's the answer. Now, Leo's different than Tom. Yeah. Leo, I do want to, because Leo is a punk kid on the Hollywood streets. Yeah. And that, of course, fascinates me greatly. That's interesting. Yeah. He's an unlikely. He still looks so good. It's so annoying. Yeah. He's a stud. I know, but like. Enough already? Well, no, because like, you know, he only dates these like young people.

1:51:06You know, people, this is, I mean, I don't know if we dare. There are so many people that are really mad about that. It's generally now when his name is brought up, it's like everyone— It's always. They've really latched on to that. And I understand it. But then there is also a part of me that, like, believes greatly in liberty. So it's like, if this 23-year-old girl is dying to be with him and he is dying to be with her, I'm not really seeing the moral conundrum here. No one's saying— It's not like he's with 17-year-olds. No one is saying that he shouldn't be allowed. The thing is like, how can you be this age?

1:51:44I mean, we've talked about this about other people, right? Well, I couldn't date a 22-year-old personally. Yes, and I think you've said about other people who you know well, like what it means. But can I really quickly put a caveat on that? Yeah. My issue there, because yes, I have said between you and I, friends of mine, My issue there is they have a proclaimed goal of having a family and then their actions don't match that at all. Because they shouldn't start a family with someone who's 22. They should start a family with someone that's around their age and at that point in their life. Right.

1:52:19So my issue with that is like don't act like you want this and then do the opposite of how you would get there. Sure. But it's not a judgment of like people are hot for each other, man. Like I don't know how one has an issue with that. It's not an issue. It's not. Everyone can do whatever they want. But there is a like, the older you get, the more you understand how different younger people are than you. Even me. Like, you know. Unless he hasn't matured. But that's the whole thing. That's really what it's kind of saying is like, are you? I mean, he said that, I guess. He said like, I have the emotional maturity of a 30 something.

1:52:56thing. The limited stuff I see in between movies, he is at like nightclubs and stuff. Is he still? I think so. I'm like, yeah, this guy's like a kid and he goes and pretends at work and then he gets off and then he acts. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, but all that's like, that's fascinating for people, right? Is it possible though that this is what the deep thing's going on? I'm really afraid to even suggest this, but I do. I'm just going to ask you what you think. Okay. What is deeply unfair in life on this planet is that as men age, their options don't diminish. And as women age, their options diminish.

1:53:35And it's completely unjust and unfair. Right. That's definitely at play. And so is it possible that for women, when they see him with this young person, what it's really reminding them of is this injustice that they're not allowed to maintain their appeal and attractiveness as they age, yet men are. And as he may be shouldering— Well, it's if the world doesn't look at women that way. Right. Everyone's aging. Yes. You know, it's not like— And I'm agreeing. It's like it's an injustice. It is not fair that men can still play sex symbols in their 60s, and they don't let women do that. Yeah. So that's deeply unfair.

1:54:15Yeah. I totally agree with that. but are we asking this one person to shoulder the weight of that anger? Sure. Right? And I also don't know that I agree with that. And I think of the 24-year-old super hot for Leo, which I believe she is. Yeah, I believe she is. I'm not, he's not coercing anyone. That's not, and I don't, no one thinks that. Right. But I think two things are happening. One, yes, I'm sure that's at play. There's like, but I do think, and not for everyone, but I do think for a lot of people, when they hear that, They're like, oh, man. Like, there's a little bit of like, oh, he's not a serious person.

1:54:54Like, I hate that's like a mean thing to say. And I don't know that it's true. But like, yes. How old is he? Mine. She's 50. He's 50. OK, so if he's 50 and he's only dating 25 and younger, there's a sense of like, oh, my idea of him is not what he is. He's not what you want him to be? Yeah, exactly. There's like disappointment. That's not on him. It's not. He's living his own life. And where I think people have a business in complaining or judging is in movies when they can't. And like when you watch movies from the 80s and 90s, I mean, it's just laughable now that we're aware of it. It's like every single, like Harrison Ford in every movie is with someone 25 years younger.

1:55:41Like he's married to someone. So, yes, there's this crazy history of the 80s and 90s and early 2000s where it's like almost it's a given that the 55-year-old male actor is going to have a wife who's 30. Yeah. Every one of the movies. Yeah. And so that to me is a very legitimate complaint. It's like this is the workplace. This is these people's chosen profession. The older actors are suffering because you will refuse to cast people of the same age. Yeah. There is a workplace injustice in that. Yeah. And I think that's worth being really revved up about. Yeah. But I think for people in their own life, again, I'd be embarrassed, but that's me.

1:56:21That's personal decisions. And that's how I choose to live my life. I would feel silly showing up at a red carpet with a 19-year-old. Yeah. Personally. Yeah. And that's what people are feeling. Because my image of myself, that's incompatible with. Yes. But if someone else, if everyone's honky-dory in this situation. Everyone's consenting. Again, I don't think I don't think like he needs to go to jail for this. It's just like, oh, like it's just something that I think people feel that they can call out and make fun of because it's a bit it's a pattern and it feels interesting to people and telling, I guess.

1:56:56Like, I think it's people are just like, oh, that's telling. Yeah. I would love to go on a date with him. See, that's kind of my point. A lot of the people I hear. that are upset. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But trust me, if you and I were talking when you were 24, you'd be like, I'll go on a date with him. Oh, oh yeah. No, I know. Yeah. But so it's interesting when I hear a lot of people that are like really judgmental of him. Yeah. I'm like, also bullshit, you'd go on a date with him too. And most young people would. Again, though, they're not judging the daughter. I almost said, which by the way, his daughter in this movie, I think is like 25.

1:57:36So there's, yeah. Here's the other thing. And I don't know. And we don't need to try to find out, but like, I haven't heard that any of these women feel used. No, he doesn't have a, like a gaggle of people that feel scorned by him. They all seem to be pretty. That's telling too. Like it doesn't, again, it doesn't seem like he just wants them necessarily as arm candy. I don't know what's going on with them, but that's why he has to come on and tell us. And I don't care about the movies. I want to know what is going on. And also, does he want to date me? I look quite young. So maybe this is the best of both worlds because I am appropriate age.

1:58:20I mean, you is. I'm an appropriate age.

1:58:26And I have like a year left to give him children if he would like that. Right. And I look. That's the other thing. It's like, it seems to me he doesn't want that. I don't think he wants that. And so like, who cares? Oh, no, he doesn't have to want that. But it is just like, what do they talk about? Like this, she's on, he doesn't know about these. They're not living in the same. I just think people are more wound up about it than they should be. Yeah. That's my kind of take. Because I'll talk to people. Like I was somewhere this summer and this older guy, he's like, do you see Leo's new girlfriend?

1:58:58And I'm like, no. I mean, this guy. And I'm like, why could you possibly care? Of course, everyone's projecting. So yeah, women have their own projections, but men have their own projections too, because if they can't, they're like, I can't date someone like that. A, I can't have that. And so he shouldn't. Yeah. Two, I have a daughter. I would be disgusted if my daughter was with this old man or that this old man was with my daughter. Grant your daughter her autonomy. I mean, like if one of my kids is hot for a dude that's older, that's none of my fucking business. They get to be they get to be attracted to whatever they want.

1:59:34Yeah. But you might be like. My only fear would be like, hon, if you guys go the distance at 30 years old, you're going to be you're going to be walking him through hospice. Right. And then you're going to be at this age when you're reentering life. That would be the only thing I would want you to acknowledge is the unavoidable end to this. That part would concern me. I think you also might be concerned if you're, if like she feels, you know, she's in love with him. And you are like, maybe, I don't know if that person is like type of person who's going to fall in love. Let's look at the pattern.

2:00:13Like you're all in. Yeah. You might be given your dismissal papers. Yes. Yes. And that as a dad. As long as you go into it with full awareness. Right. But I think as a dad, that's hard to watch. Your kid, like, be in love with someone that you know. Some old guy gobble up their youth. Yeah. Their youth. Yes. Maybe hard to watch, but I just know better. I know that I would have never listened to my parents tell me who I should or shouldn't be attracted to or date. Yeah. So knowing that I would have never, I would never waste a minute of my time. Well, I'm not saying you should waste, but I don't think we can discount that you might have feelings around it.

2:00:51And I think that's okay. Okay, we're going to wrap it up because I got to go. But also, oh, I think on this episode, I'd love to end it. I want to play a clip, the trailer of Beth Stead. Oh, yes. Great, great. Beth Stead is the podcast I talked about last week, I think, or a couple weeks ago with Elizabeth and Andy. You've worked so, so hard on it, all of you. Worked so hard. It's a very special project and it's true crimey and it's Nancy Drew. and it's really fun. And it's 10 episodes and not to make this complicated, but they're going to be available all on Patreon for people to binge if they want.

2:01:28It's a very bingey show and that's$6 if you want to do that. Very reasonable. Very reasonable. And also there'll be extra stuff. We'll do Q &As, we'll do other stuff and that'll be really fun. But also if you don't want to, it will all be out. It'll start coming out the 30th weekly. Okay, great. So if you want to wait for that for free, You can do that, too. But I recommend The Binge. For 60 cents an episode, fucking go crazy. I'm just going to say it. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, here's the trailer. Okay, great. I'm excited. I'm really excited because we have Elizabeth and Andy from my favorite podcast, Nobody's Listening Right.

2:02:03I have you guys here because you took something away from me. And I never knew why you guys went off the air.

2:02:19Elizabeth, I wish I could give you a hug so bad right now. My husband told me that you, Elizabeth, were one of the biggest... I'm a 28-year-old dancing yoga instructor. Hello, Elizabeth. 1K is absolutely...

2:02:35Andy didn't realize at the time I was also responding to all these people who would write in with questions. Oh my God! The subject of the email is, you may recognize my vagina. I went through my notes this morning, and I was getting teary-eyed how upsetting it was. So I got this email. This is Beth's brother. Just after 4 a.m., my amazing sister Beth passed away. We were all completely devastated. I think by this point I was like, this feels dangerous. I probably wished I hadn't gotten involved beyond just the podcast, but I had already committed myself. Revisiting this has made me uneasy. And then I'm like, if I'm going to find out a bunch of bad shit, is it going to make me feel more unease?

2:03:30I can't really get it out of my head that I think we need to attempt to make contact. Okay, I want to perf. Okay, deep breath, deep breath.

2:03:58Okay First time I've ever received an amends in an interview Oh, that was very sweet. Yeah. It was really funny. Per usual, I had an idea. I had an idea of what it was going to be. And I was honestly, I hate like this. I was kind of scared of him. Like I even was like, oh, maybe I won't walk in early. Like I'll wait. Yeah. Because he was here early and I got here early. And I was like, maybe I'll just wait till Dax goes in. But then I was like, no, it's fine. And then as soon as I walked in, he introduced himself to me and it was so, he was so warm and nice. And sweet. He just like reeks sweetness.

2:04:39Yeah. And, and I said, I'm Monica. I'm the co-host. He said, I know. And I was like, oh, you did your research. He was like, well, I read the thing they sent me. And I was like, oh, great. So, um, yeah, I was, I was, it was not what I expected. And he was so, so, uh, lovely and sweet. And I really enjoyed it a lot. And we could have done 15 hours with them. Oh, yeah. As you'll see when you watch the doc, you got like 1 % of the stories. Okay. Couple facts. Not very many, but a couple. Really quick. I was hiking with D 'Onofrio and he had watched it. Uh-huh. And I said, you know, it's hard to give someone this crown in the history of show business.

2:05:20I don't think anyone's ever gone harder. Yeah. I mean, what an accomplishment in its own right. I mean, I. Given the competition. Right. I'm shocked. I mean, I'm so happy that he's made it through. Yeah, it's really harrowing. Okay. He said if you get hypnotized, you can't be used as a witness in a case. Yeah, that's what he thought. Yeah, that's what he thought. And so I checked. It says, no, being hypnotized does not automatically disqualify someone from being a witness in court. But the fact of the hypnosis can affect the witness's credibility and the admissibility of the hypnotically refreshed testimony, which is often viewed as inherently unreliable.

2:06:07Okay, so it is a little tricky. Yeah, it could render his testimony useless. Exactly. Which is really interesting. Did you happen to read the New York Times article this weekend about this person who wrote a book who had memories that they uncovered during MDMA therapy? No. Very fascinating article. Yeah. Well, that goes against what we've heard about repressed memories. That's, yeah. Yeah. I'll send you the article. Yeah, I want to read it. Now, what is the correct way of typing called? Touch typing. It's not what I was thinking. technique of typing without looking at the keyboard by relying on muscle memory to locate the keys.

2:06:49This method involves using all 10 fingers and resting them on the home row keys. Thank you. Home row keys. ASDF for the left hand and JKL for the right hand. JKL, Jimmy Kimmel Live. Oh my God. Wow. There was a statement said that Nick Cage does more movies than anyone alive. Obviously, that's an exaggeration. But I did, then I got curious who is credited with the most. And it's Eric Roberts. Oh, wow. Julia Roberts' brother. Eric Roberts is often cited as the American actor with the most film credits. I can do an impersonation of him, but I have to block myself from you. Okay. They took my fucking thumbs, Johnny.

2:07:29Wow. Yeah, that's a pretty good Eric Roberts. Okay, wow. In the Popal Grunge Village. Oh, my. He has over 450 film credits. Wow. And 191 TV credits. Wow. Yeah. Busy, busy, busy. Busy B. Think of what his residual statement looks like. Yeah. By the way, this is American actors. Congrats, Eric Roberts. Do we know how many Nick has been in? He's never done TV to my knowledge. It would only be films. How many credits does Nick Cage have? 116 or more. That's not helpful. Okay. Yeah, I got at least 119. That's a lot. It's a lot. And mostly, I think only starring roles. It's not like. Yeah, probably.

2:08:13Like mine's more than it should be because I'm like guesting once in a while here and there. I come into a movie and say one line because it's French. You know, it's not real. Yeah. Well, it's real, but it's. It's just not. It's not the same. Not 116 lead roles. Yeah. That's pretty wild. And that's it. Okay. Love you. Yeah. Love you.

2:09:06Thank you.