Elizabeth Smart

25:13you wanted it to happen close to the house if he was going to do it so your parents could find you. It's not that different from here. There are mountain lions, there are coyotes, and a 14-year-old has a pretty active imagination. I was like, oh my gosh, if we get far up here, these coyotes are mountain lions are going to tear apart my body and then I'll just vanish and no one will ever find me, which it could have happened. Just this last time I hiked up there, I saw some entrails on the way up and that was it. Animal. Yeah, I know, I know. I know, but still, the fact that you have to think like that.

25:44Is terribly adult kind of a thought to have. And the first few days of this, there's 40 ,000 leads are phoned in. So what they're trying to sift through. And ultimately, the family is cleared. How do we get to Reesey? How did he come to be a suspect? My parents had built the house that we were living in. And they really project managed the whole thing. My dad was in there. laying tile with everyone else and painting walls and doing all the things. What line of work was your dad in? He was a mortgage broker. So he would contract out with people or he went to, I can't even remember exactly what it's called, but basically the Mormon church services where they try to connect people in need with work.

26:32And they had recommended this Richard Riese to my dad. And because it came from the church, my dad was like, oh, he's good. He must be fine. So he brought him to our house, had him working on and around the house. And neither of my parents knew that actually he was a convicted felon and he had a whole history. So when the police were asking for a list of everyone who had been to our house before, his name was on the list. And then, of course, they're like, oh, well, he's a felon. He had killed a cop in a armed robbery gone wrong. So obviously for them, they're pretty excited at that revelation.

27:08How could they not be? Yeah, they're like, it's him. And they bring him in. And he's a wild dude. There's a lot of footage in the doc of them interviewing him. Again, he's also presenting as someone guilty. He's very combative. He will not explain. Your father gave him a car, right? A Cherokee? Yeah. So it was in exchange for some work instead of money. He would rather have the car. And so that was the deal. But then I'm not exactly sure on the details. But I don't know if he had completed all the work or there was something. It didn't end well. Yeah, that they were like, he was supposed to follow through.

27:43It was like a weirdness. I mean, he ended up stealing some of my mom's jewelry as well. That's another thing. They go to his house to arrest him. And when they have a warrant to go through everything, they find stuff he's stolen from their house. Oh, my God. Yeah, if you're them, this is looking more and more promising. Yeah, it feels like a bullseye. And then even crazier, somehow they deduce this, and I don't know how, but he had put a few hundred miles on that car that was given to him the night of this abduction. Yeah. And we never found out what it was for. He refused to tell. But everyone thought it was like he drove out to the West Desert and buried me out there.

28:18Right. That's kind of a natural conclusion. And if you're the police, you're like, oh, my God, now we have a radius of 150 miles. Good luck. Yeah. Oh. And he won't tell them anything, and he's really, really combative. And they decide, let's offer him an immunity deal, which is as long as it has nothing to do with a murder or some other very serious thing. You can tell us where you drove, and we won't care about the crime. Right. And so as that's being pitched and they're evaluating whether or not to take that opportunity, he dies in his jail cell. My other grandpa, my dad's dad, he was a doctor.

28:56And at the time he said, Elizabeth hit him over the head and he had a brain aneurysm and that's why he died.

29:04Oh, wow. I'm glad he thought that, but that's not what happened. So he did. He had an aneurysm. He just like healed. What? Yeah, and the doctor like stroke or aneurysm. I don't know if it was ever decided, but you're still missing. This is like a string of impossibly bad luck things to happen. That nobody woke up, that the magnets on the door fell off, that this guy just dies out of nowhere. What? That's so crazy. I know, right? How is this even my life? Right. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance.

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31:30How long had you been gone when Recy died? At the four or five-month mark. Oh, that long already? They've been gone for four or five months. And so obviously national attention's dying down. The police department's running out of people to talk to. They have this guy they thought it was it. He's dead. I don't want to say they said it was over, but kind of it was over for them. But that leaves your parents with where is she if that's what happened? I mean, just the agony of that being the conclusion. Yeah, I mean, everyone was like, the secret of what happened to Elizabeth has gone with Richard Riese to his grave.

32:11We will never find her. We will never know what happened. We can only assume she's dead. Okay, now tell Monica this crazy thing that happens to Mary Catherine waiting for dad to come tuck her into bed. My sister, she's just randomly looking at the Guinness Book of World Records, and she said she turned to this page of this extremely muscular woman. I know this day. She's like, I have no idea. The mind's weird, isn't it? That's what jogged. No idea. Yeah. But as she's looking at this page. This muscular woman in the world. This muscular woman. The name comes to her. No. And my dad comes in to tuck her in and she's like, dad, I think I know who kidnapped Elizabeth.

32:55I think it was that guy, Emmanuel, who came to our house and did some work for you that one time. Who you guys had originally seen downtown, right? Yeah, I'd only seen him once. I was out school clothes shopping with my mom at the beginning of the year. And I mean, he only saw me like one time. And just that one time he's like, yep, she's the one. I'm going to kidnap her. And he was a homeless guy who was preaching his own version of the scripture. I mean, at that point in time, he didn't preach to my mom. He spent a lot of time talking about his twisted past. But he basically found that the best way to manipulate people and get what he wanted was through religion.

33:36Or if he needed to justify something, just blame it on religion. And so he had done that for years. He'd done it to his family. when he married my other captor, that was, I think, his third wife. Then he and his third wife, they just fed off of each other. But they had both used that tactic for years and years. However, I think if you look at that time period, you know, he saw me in like September, October, maybe of 2001, right around 9-11. I think any form of extremism, people just pulled away from. Frowned upon. Made people very cautious. So he had stopped wearing the robes he usually wore and he had stopped kind of pushing that facade as much.

34:27So when my mom saw him, I mean, he was clean shaven. He had clean clothes on. He just kind of looked like a guy who had hit hard times. Not necessarily like your average homeless person. Yeah. And he didn't even ask my mom for money straight out of the gate. He asked her for work. When you were out clothes shopping. And so my mom was like, well, I don't have any work, but you can call my husband. And he only asked for work because he saw me and wanted to find out where we lived. And so from the time he saw me back in September, October, all the way up until June was when he kidnapped me. He planned it.

35:04What the fuck? Okay. So Mary Catherine knows it's a manual. And then we bring in a sketch artist. and they do a sketch. They want the police to release this sketch and they do not want to release it. I can't remember the reason they were. I mean, they just thought it was Richard Risi. They just didn't think that it was this other guy who came to our house one time. And they said, if you put this out in public, then if that person does have Elizabeth, now you're in danger. Right, right. This is the rationale. It's not insane, but thank God your family grew so frustrated and hopeless, I imagine.

35:45John Walsh from America's Most Wanted had become a huge support to my parents. So my dad had gotten pretty close with him. And my dad had told John, Mary Catherine thinks she knows who took Elizabeth. And we've gone down to the police station and we've had like a sketch artist come in and sketch this guy. She thinks that's who it is. And John was like, well, you got to release it. And they're like, but the police don't want us to. And so actually John went on Larry King Live back in the day and he actually released the sketch on Larry King Live. Wow. Good for him. Yeah. As it turns out, great for him.

36:23Yeah. Because pretty quickly the brother-in-law of Emanuel. In quotes, Dax, it just did quotes. I did quotes if you're listening and not watching. Emanuel, in quotes, his brother-in-law calls and says, I think I know who Emanuel is. He knew that was the name that Brian Mitchell was going by. So now we know who it is, but now where are they? Okay, so now let's go back to walking. As you just said, there's a second person involved who goes by the name of... Hepzibah. Hepzibah. What happens when you get to the end of this three and a half mile hiking trail? He had said while he was taking me up into the mountains that we were going to his wife.

37:11And initially, when I heard that there was going to be a woman there, I was like, it's going to be fine. I tell my kids, find a woman if you're lost. I know. Yeah, right? Women can be crazy too. Now you should tell them, find a woman with kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We go step one, find a police officer or a woman with kids and then next best shot. Yeah. Yeah, it's a list. It's terrible. Ending with man. Yeah. Yeah. And so like initially I was relieved because I was like, nothing that bad can happen. Plus, I mean, I could tell that he was older. I feel like your brain goes in so many different ways to try to protect you.

37:44Try to make you think, okay, or at least mine does. The situation is not as dire as it seems. Like it's going to be okay. There's a woman there. Maybe they're just kidnapping you because they want a daughter really bad. That's what I was honestly just thinking. I was like, is that why? Or maybe their daughter died or something. And like they're just heartbroken. Well, you're grasping for any ray of hope. Exactly. So we get back up into the mountains to like this hidden mountain camp. And sure enough, there's this woman. I feel relief at seeing her. She comes up to me. She hugs me. But at the same time, the hug was, I don't know.

38:20Is there such a thing as an, yes, there is such a thing as an aggressive hug. Yeah. Or a possessive hug. Yeah, a hug is like domination kind of thing. Yeah, I'm claiming you. And she's also dressed in, by my, sorry. Yeah, no, you're right. A crazy outfit. She looks like she is in a witch movie or something. She has like these long sort of tunic-like robes on. All white. Just different. Yeah. So she hugs you. She hugs me. She leads me inside of the tent. She sits me down on an upturned bucket. And I need to add, it is a camping tent. Yeah, it's a camping tent. You get no illusions of grandeur. This is a three-person tent.

38:54It's probably like a six-person tent. You're right. Let's be fair. It's a six-person tent. Okay. But that's where they're living. Inside the tent, there's just bedding on the ground. And there's this one upturned bucket. That's what she has me sit on. She brings in like this little small blue basin, has water in it. She like takes off my shoes, starts washing my feet, goes to reach to unbutton my pajamas. And I was like, what? And I mean, I was shy. Yeah. I'm a late bloomer in lots of things. so I hadn't really hit puberty yet and I don't know anyone who goes through puberty gracefully anyway.

39:35Not me. No, it's not easy. I was, I could not, of course, help but imagine my own 12-year-old in this situation and it's just devastating. It's fucking devastating. Yeah, so, you know, she's like trying to undress me. I just remember like grabbing, holding my pajamas. The last thing you want to be is naked in front of anybody, much less strangers. No. Who knows what's going to happen when these clothes come off. It's very scary. Yeah. So did she let you keep them on? No. No, she was like, if you don't let me take them off you, I will have Emmanuel come in here and he will rip them off of you. And I remember just being like, I showered last night before I went to bed.

40:12I'm not dirty. If you want me to change, I will change myself. You don't need to touch me. So she finally hands me a robe, like the one she has on. I remember pulling it on and then taking my clothes off underneath the robe. And she scoops them up and she walks out of the tent. And you're just sitting there. I'm just sitting there. Yep. I could hear them right outside the door. Oh, God. So the woman walks out. I honestly don't know how much time passed. Could have been 30 seconds. Could have been 10 minutes. But not too much time passes. And the man comes in the tent. And he's changed out of like the dark sweatpants and sweatshirt and stocking hat that he wore to kidnap me in.

40:53and he has on these long ropes, like the woman. And he comes in and he kneels down next to me and he starts speaking to me. And at first I'm really not paying attention to what he has to say. And then I have the thought that maybe I should because maybe there'd be some reason why he was kidnapping me or what was going to happen next. As a religious person, did you think at any point, oh, these are satanic, some kind of devil worshipy people? At that point, I did not realize he had already mentioned God. But because I grew up in such a religious environment, that didn't just automatically make me think, oh, crazy person.

41:34Right, right, right, right, right. But then as I listen to what he says and he's like, I seal you to me as my wife before God and his angels as my witnesses. They're getting married, Monica. Oh, my God. And is it at that moment he tells you you are one of seven I will be? He doesn't tell me right at that moment, but I mean, he does tell me later how I'm the first of seven wives. So he had this whole set of books that he viewed as scripture and he called them the seven diamonds plus one. Because the seven books, it was like the Old Testament, the New Testament. They were books. Standard stuff. I don't know how standard all of them were, but they were published books.

42:14And then his plus one was the book he wrote of like Revelations. What is his book? His book. Because he's a prophet. He's not just a prophet. He's the Davidic king. Oh, my God. I know. Like, half of these things I'd never even heard of before. That was, like, the same thing how he viewed me and the future six other girls he was going to kidnap. So we were going to be the seven wives plus the one, and the one was Wanda Barzee, Hepzibah. And she was, like, the queen that would reign over us all. She was the mother of Zion. That's what she claimed. Boy, you think about all the psychology that goes behind a master manipulator like that and how offering her that high status role somehow made all the other.

43:04This dude obviously wants to be with a ton of women, but I've anointed you. This is the salve I'm going to put on that is give you super high status and hope you're good with that. She had a prior marriage as well. She had six kids from her prior marriage. That makes it even darker to think of someone who's had children. Has kids could do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Isn't it? I feel a little bit torn because on one hand, I don't want to be like, you're not totally at fault because you are. But at the same time, I don't think she knew what a healthy relationship was. And she probably had quite a few struggles herself in life.

43:38You must be in a very complicated situation when it comes to her in particular. Because she is your predator, your oppressor. And you're smart enough to know she too is caught in some web of oppression herself probably, yeah? Or no? There is definitely a cycle. And I think she probably was so desperate for love. She wanted to feel special. She wanted to feel like she was important because I think she probably had never felt that in her life. And so he is there telling her, you know, you are my queen. And you've experienced all of these hardships because God was testing you. And he has found you worthy.

44:18You are going to be the mother of Zion. And even though you've had a hysterectomy and you're 58, one day you will bear me a son who will be the future Davidic king. I mean, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah. Part of me is like, you were a mother. Or maybe you just gave birth six times. Maybe you don't understand what it is to be a mother because a mother would never harm a child. Yeah. Yeah. How? And it's mind-blowing to me that even another woman, because we've all been through puberty, you know, we've all been through that awkward, kind of miserable time in life. Why would you exploit a young girl probably at her most vulnerable?

45:00Why would you sit aside and encourage her to be raped and watch it? And what kind of bizarre psychology to watch someone you're married to rape somebody is quite twisted. Yeah, she must have really been so sick and manipulated that she had to probably believe. Because if she didn't. Yeah, exactly. You can't live. Then she's triple monster. Or conversely, maybe she's an equal monster. I don't know. That's what I'm kind of asking. Like, are you even able to evaluate that? That's why I go back and forth is because sometimes I'm like, was she in such a bad place herself from her whole life's past experience?

45:42that she just was so desperate for love, for the feelings of wanting to be special, that she allowed this to happen. It was just easier to believe and go along with than to stand up and be like, no, you're sick. This is wrong. And did she ever crack and show signs of jealousy? Oh, yes. Yes. So she was probably cruel to you at times? She never stood up for me and protected me. But I not only was supposed to be his wife, but I was supposed to be her handmaiden. So I was supposed to like wait on her. And so I felt that it was better for me to support her claims because then sometimes her jealousy, it would be so much that he would come out with a new revelation to try to placate her.

46:40So he'd come out and he'd say, oh, God has said that your glory is like that of the sun. And so I can only be with you when the sun is out. And me, that I was just more like the moon. And so he could only have me at night. I never wanted to be raped. But then if I supported her in that, at least I'd know I'd have a reprieve for 12 hours, 8 hours, however long the sun was out. I would imagine if I were you, and I could be wrong, that I'm in survival mode. And I would recognize that if I could convince her I'm loyal to you, that that would help me later. Yes. And probably playing this bizarre game where you're trying to make both people feel like you're loyal to them.

47:26And so they would have massive fights, like screaming at each other, which my parents disagreed. But I never saw them scream at each other. And so watching them just be straight up nasty to each other and scream at each other, I was like, oh, my goodness. And would you be ever hoping like, oh, good, I hope they break apart. That'll help dissolve all this. If she goes somewhere. She maybe will tell someone. That thought crossed my mind, but it became pretty quickly apparent that she wasn't going to betray him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, one time she did actually leave the hidden campsite, and I was just left alone with Emmanuel Brian Mitchell all day.

48:08She went down into Salt Lake because she was really mad at him because, I mean, food was always scarce. Water was scarce. And so she and I would be up in the mountains starving, and he'd go down to Salt Lake, steal food. While Elizabeth was in the camp, he got arrested in Salt Lake for stealing beer. Yeah. He actually got arrested a couple times. Oh, he did a couple times. Yeah, he got arrested in Salt Lake. He got arrested in Lakeside where he was held in jail for almost a week. I thought I was going to die of starvation. Okay. Now, this wasn't in the doc, but just occurred to me, this is insanely boring, too.

48:48I mean, you guys are sitting in a fucking tent for months. It's like, what's happening during the day? Do you remember the tedium of that? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Was there a TV in there? Not for, I would just mean, more just to see the news. No. Were you seeing yourself? There's no electricity. There's no water. There's nothing. They had their scriptures. They would pray. When they'd pray, it would be like an hour. So long. My family prayed growing up, but it was like 90 seconds. Yeah. Two minutes at a stretch. Reasonable. Yeah. My average day would be like, wake up. And they'd like, well, actually, he'd probably rape me.

49:25And then he'd pray for like 45 minutes, an hour. And then he'd want to read sometimes whatever scripture he chose. But most of the time it'd be like what he wrote, which that would take, I don't know, an hour and a half, two hours. If there was food, then I'd be allowed to eat something. I mean, I'd be given what I could eat. I just couldn't take whatever. And then they'd mostly just talk all day. They're both crazy. I mean, he's two crazy individuals. Yeah. I mean, like, I don't know. It was worse sometimes just listening to them talk or actually being raped. Yeah, you said that. Yeah. I stand by that.

50:03Yeah. Not to be salacious, but I think it's relevant. It's that first night he rapes you. It's unimaginable, obviously. You're in so much pain. You're bleeding. And then the next day, multiple times. Yeah. And then that just continues for months. Yeah. I mean, forced me to go naked. He was like, oh, we need to be like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. That must have just been so hard for you. And so we're going to go naked all day. And then a wife needs to know how to make love to her husband. So we're going to demonstrate you need to watch and then it'll be your turn. And if you don't watch, you won't get any food.

50:41You won't get any water. You won't get your clothes back. Won't be able to go to sleep tonight. Nothing is going to happen until you do this. Oh, my God. Now, the other mind-blowing part of this is you were also going into town. Not right away, but yeah. How far into captivity before you guys all go into town? Probably about three months in. So he takes them to town in the white outfits, and both of them have their faces completely covered, other than the eyes. They added like a sheer veil for the eyes as well. He took you guys to a kind of illegal nightclub. I mean, it was just a house party.

51:22A house party, yeah. Yeah. I guess the way that the guy who hosted the thing described it was, in 2002 in Salt Lake, you have a very obvious Mormon culture, and then you have a pretty thriving counterculture, and there would be these kind of off-grid after-hours parties where people did drugs and did whatever. So he comes to a place like this, and the man offered you a beer, or all three of you a drink, and Emmanuel said, The ladies are not allowed to drink, but I can drink. And then the man said to Elizabeth, this guy seems kind of controlling. And then Hezbollah or Hezbo... Hepzibah. Hepzibah says you can't talk to her.

52:00Think how close this is to being... I bet that guy, when everything came out, he probably, I'm sure, was like, oh my God. He's in the doc saying he feels terrible that he didn't push harder. But the one that is absolutely... You hear these stories about, I don't know if it was Dahmer or one of these serial killers where one of his victims got away and a cop brought him back to the house. What? Yeah. So tell us about going to the Salt Lake Library. Winter is coming on and there's just no way we could have survived like a northern Utah winter. There's no way we could have gotten enough food or a tent.

52:37We would not have survived. Yeah. And so they're like, we need to find somewhere to go. we need to find somewhere for this winter. So it was decided we'd go to Southern California. And they're like, okay, we need to find maps of the area. We need to figure where to go in Southern California. So we went to the public library. They had maps spread out on the table. They decided we'd head to San Diego. They were like looking at the maps of San Diego. There was a place called Lakeside, which he's like, oh, Lakeside, that sounds kind of remote-ish. There must be a big lake. So there's probably a place to hide somewhere around there, which is actually kind of funny because it's a man-made lake.

53:15Oh. Surrounded not by rural areas. Yeah. He was decided that's where we were going. So they're looking at the map and all of a sudden this guy starts walking towards us and he gets closer and all of a sudden he flashes his badge and he says, I'm a homicide detective. We've gotten a call and I just need to talk to you because there's a girl who we're trying to find. We just need to verify that she is not that girl. Oh, wow. Really quick, before you tell the outcome, do you remember what was happening in your body as that was happening? Shock, adrenaline, fear. Wanda Barzee, her hand just clamped down on my thigh.

53:56And I was just... Paralyzed? Yeah. It was like being kidnapped all over again. It was like reliving every bad thing that had happened to me. and it just made me feel like it reminded me of how invincible my captors felt to me and that they had the control and not me and they'd gotten away with so much already. Who was this police officer that he thought he could protect me when no one had found me? Oh, wow. So, I mean, I just was frozen. Everyone has kind of heard of fight or flight. Or freeze. And I froze. Yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean, it wasn't even like a conscious decision. All of us would freeze.

54:41We'll get to that. But Emmanuel, he explains to the cop that their religion forbids her to show her face, that the only people that are ever allowed to see her face are her father and her future husband. Okay. And the police officer said, fine. I mean, he pushed. He was like, well, can I just convert to your religion for a day? Oh. Like, if you just let me see her face, anyone else who calls, I can assure them that she is who you say she is. I mean, he did push. He did try. Wow, but that's so hard for me. Now, that's the guy who I imagine has the most amount of guilt, way beyond that. I actually think he's passed away since then, yeah.

55:20But, I mean, I saw him during the trial. Devastated? Yeah. Of course. He just apologized so much. But I think that also just goes to show what a master manipulator. Yes, you're right. Charles Manson, there is some Svengali quality he clearly had that he could not panic in the face of this situation he was in and then stick to it and get out of it. I mean, it was also really interesting during the trial. The prosecuting team like found so much stuff about him. And it was interesting because the defense team even brought up a lot of stuff that the prosecution was like, we were thinking about bringing that up.

55:57And then we're like, we don't need to. But this is just like another nail in the coffin. So why not? And one of the things they brought up was a letter that Brian Mitchell had written. I think it was to his mom or someone, but talking about what a good actor he was and how much he enjoyed acting and tricking people and convincing others of whatever he felt like. Oh, my God. Can you believe that? So they take a Greyhound or you take a bus. You're out of Lakeside. You're there. And now I think this is a very savvy moment for you. What it tells me is as frozen as you were at many times that were terrifying, you also hadn't surrendered.

56:39You had hope. Because there's moments in the doc where I wonder, do we ever get Stockholm syndrome-y? Is there anything happening? I really can't fathom what happens mentally. Do you know that Stockholm syndrome? I am well aware of it, but no. I'm not sure that I even really believe in Stockholm Syndrome. I feel like it's actually, as we just mentioned, fight, flight, freeze. But I think there's another response, which is appease, which is basically, which I don't even like the word fawn because that makes it sound like you're flirty. Oh, interesting. It makes it sound like you're fawning over someone, like you're flirting, like you're looking for attention.

57:18That's true. It does kind of sound like that. But you're just satiating someone's ego is what's happening. But basically, it's just doing whatever you have to do to survive. So if that means going along with them, then that's what you do. Yeah. But you do get this pretty clever idea because, you know, the further away from Salt Lake City you are, the less your chances of getting found are. How do you plant this seed? I'd watch them do it for nine months, how they'd get away with whatever they wanted by claiming God commanded them or saying it was part of their religion. and I think you'd find with most rapists it's not so much the uncontrollable need for sex it's the power and control over another person they want more than anything and that's what they wanted was power and control so I remember just thinking well if they can do this and get away with it why can't I I can only try what's the worst thing that can happen I guess they could kill me at least wouldn't be with them.

58:18Right. And so I thought, I'm just going to give it a try. And so I went to him and I was just like, oh, I just have this feeling. I know it sounds so crazy. God would never speak to me. I am so sinful. I am just so filthy. He had forced me to drink so many beers one night, not that far away from this day that I'm talking to him where I'd ended up throwing up because I was a 15-year-old girl at this point. And he just left me there. And so like I woke up the next morning, my face was all crusted to the ground and throw up and it was all in my hair. So I mean, I'm being like, you know, I'm just nothing.

58:56That showed my true spiritual state. I am just face down in my own vomit. But I keep having this feeling like we should go back to Salt Lake. But I know God would never speak to me. So do you think you could ask him? Because I know he would tell you. Wow. You are his prophet. And I know he would tell you. So could you please ask him? And I think for him in that moment, not that he didn't already do everything he wanted to to me. But I think he felt that was like him getting full control. He got you. Not only had control of my body, but my mind too in that moment. You are now a believer. Yeah. And so that's when he was like, oh, I think you're right.

59:40I think we should go back to Salt Lake. The sketch is out. They know who they're looking for, but, you know, where are they going to find this guy in this huge country? Do you think he had been following the case at all? I wouldn't say he was following it per se, but sometimes when he'd go down into Salt Lake, he'd bring newspaper articles back about the search, or he'd talk about how every tree in Salt Lake had, like, a light blue ribbon tied around it, and how every window in Salt Lake had a picture of my face in it. How did that make you feel when you knew everyone was thinking about you? It's one thing to say that, but to see it or I guess experience it.

1:00:26I mean, I only experienced after I got home. And in like the days and weeks after I got home, the post office couldn't put mail in our mailbox. They brought it up to the house by the box full. And I remember at one point there were so many flowers in our house that even the countertops in the bathrooms had vases of flowers on them. I could never imagine. I mean, even now, we all know like the number, oh, there's 7 billion people in the world or however many. I mean, it's one thing to say that number, but then to actually even begin to realize just how many people that actually is. To put faces, to put bodies to that number is overwhelming.

1:01:07I mean, I didn't have 7 billion people sending me stuff, but however many people it was. The whole country was aware of. Yeah, it was overwhelming. Did it buy you a little hope to know that everyone was paying attention? Yeah, it was comforting to think that there were people looking for me because who was I? Why would people look for me outside of my family? My vision of it would be my parents calling the police, my family, and the police looking for me. Maybe one new story and that's it. In my mind's eye, it was like my mom driving her car through neighborhoods looking for me. Now, probably my most hated part of the whole story is something I've also experienced, which is after the first rape, you know virginity is cherished.

1:01:57What were your thoughts after that? I thought I was ruined. To the point where you didn't even know if your family would want you back. Yeah. Fuck. If I managed to survive this, if I ever made it back to civilization, would I just become a pariah? Oh, my God. Like, how could anyone have anything to do with me once they knew the truth? Did you have any fantasies of, like, if I'm returned, I'm just going to pretend this part didn't happen? I wanted to, but then also what would happen if I ever got married and on my wedding night my husband's like, Where's your eye? What the hell, Elizabeth? Like, you're not a virgin.

1:02:33Right. So you felt like there was no escaping this? Now as an adult and someone who's been in this field now for a long time, unfortunately, when you do hear about a kidnapping, you just automatically assume they've been raped. And at the time, I was like, oh, no one's going to know. Right. Yeah, of course. But that was probably naive of me to think that. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:03:09Okay, so you return to Salt Lake and pretty quickly, upon arriving, someone spots the three of you in these crazy outfits and calls the police. I mean, actually, at that point, we weren't even in the robes. Oh, you weren't? Because we hitchhiked back from California, and my captors were like, no one will pick us up hitchhiking if we're in the robes. Fuck no. It looks like children of the corners. We need to look a little more normal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so then you hitchhiked back. It was right after you guys got there? Yeah, it was the first day we were back in Utah. And you're on foot and a police officer pulls up in a car?

1:03:48I mean, it was multiple. This is the part I could imagine it just felt like getting suffocated. This moment that I would think in a movie, you're going to run towards the cops. But there's no way that's what's going to happen. I mean, it was like the library all over again. Yeah, exactly. You have to assume that he's going to get out of it. You're going to be with him. And if you do something wrong, he's going to punish you. That has to be your assumption. Or he could kill me. Or he could go after my family. and I mean I had a captor on either side of me like physically touching me it's not like I was just hanging out by myself on the side yeah so like again that threat was very much in the forefront of my mind and I absolutely knew what my captors were capable of but I didn't know what police officers were capable of well yeah so far they haven't been able to do anything exactly In my mind, in that moment, it seemed safest to turn to my normal survival instinct, which was to do what they said.

1:04:49How did it unfold? My captors had the whole backstory prepared that they told me to say if we were ever questioned. The police officer showed up. I don't honestly remember how many there were, but it felt like a lot. were there questioning my captors. And then they started to question me. They were aggressive. They weren't kind and polite or comforting in any way. So that was intimidating. That was scary. Felt like I was receiving scary from both ends. Yeah. And my captors, they were adamant about who we were. And police officers tried asking me questions. I gave the answers I'd been told to give.

1:05:34They were much more aggressive this time than any other interaction we'd ever had with police. And finally, one of the officers was like, we need to separate her and talk to her alone. Yes. This is a good instinct. Yeah. But they weren't like, well, no, it's against our religion. We weren't in the robes or anything. And so they actually didn't say that. Maybe they knew at that point, like, the jig is up. Yeah, I don't know. So they took you aside. Not that far. I mean, I was still in view. It was like just a few yards away from my captors. And again, this officer was very aggressive towards me in his questioning.

1:06:13And I just remember feeling scared. Like you're in trouble. Yeah, exactly. There was no softness or comfort in any of this situation. Yeah. He kept on questioning me, started saying, you know, there's a girl, She's been gone now for a long time. Her family's never given up hope. Don't you want to go home? I mean, of course I wanted to go home. Of course I wanted to be back with my family. But everything that had happened was so extreme. How did he phrase it? He's in the dock, the officer who ultimately got it out of you. He said something I need to ask you. Yeah, he is like, are you Elizabeth smart?

1:06:50And you were kind of frozen again. Because on one hand, my captors, once we were in the camp, they didn't speak with you, yours. it was always like thee, thy, thine. It was all the thows. So I didn't know how much my captors could hear from where I was at. So I felt like I couldn't just say, yes, I'm Elizabeth Smart, because also they had given me a whole different name while I was with them. I was told you're not allowed to speak about your past. Your name's not Elizabeth. They had tried to strip me of my identity, everything. And so when the police officer said, you know, are you Elizabeth smart?

1:07:28I just felt like I had to speak the way that I had been told to speak, hoping that maybe my captor hadn't heard the question so that if some way he had been released, which had been the norm, I wouldn't be in trouble. And so I responded with thou sayest. Think of you the police. I know. I know. I know, I know. I know. He's like, what does that mean? I asked a 14-year-old girl if she's Elizabeth Smart and she says, they'll say yes. I know. So that means yes? They put you in the car. They handcuffed me. Handcuffed? Jesus Christ. Okay, guys. Do you remember a point where you actually felt like, oh my God, it's over?

1:08:13When did that moment happen? I mean, honestly, it wasn't until my dad was there. They had handcuffed me. They brought me to the police station. I'm like, if you thought I was innocent, like you would have taken me home. Isn't it my right to have a phone call? Like I remember being a kid going into my parents' room at night and they'd be sitting there watching Perry Mason. I was like, I swear I get a phone call. I saw that on Perry Mason. I didn't get a phone call. They didn't take me home. How far is Sandy, Utah from your family home? 20, 30 minutes. Okay, you didn't have to wait an eternity for dad.

1:08:44No. Okay. So they called your parents. Monica, there's footage of him coming into the room she's being held in and hugging her for the first time. Oh, my God. I mean, it wasn't until then that I was like, it's going to be okay. Like, I still honestly didn't even know if I was in trouble or not. But I was like, my dad's here. He's not going to let anyone hurt me. Like, these two people have hurt me. Like, it's going to be okay. Kind of insult to injury. It takes eight years for this trial to happen. I know. Everything's so broken. Everything's so fucking broken. It's like very broken and disappointing.

1:09:22We don't have a justice system. We have a legal system. Yeah. So then what's happening in that eight year? Are they in jail? They are in jail. Well, I mean, they're in the state hospital for some of it. They're in jail for some of it. The statute of limitations comes up in Utah. It has to be moved to the federal courts because otherwise he's going to walk free. What? Yeah. I'm going to fast forward to he's in prison for life. Well, I like that. And she got 15 years. She's out. But what is not in the doc, and I got left with so many questions, is when do we dare return to school? And what on earth is that like?

1:10:01I mean, this recovery process has got to be so challenging. I was rescued in March. I remember my parents asking, like, what do you want to do? I was like, I want to see my friends. I want to go back to school. I had a lot of FOMO. Parents were like, you can't go back to school yet. So I went back to school in the fall. Were they also like, you're not leaving our side ever again? Yeah. I would never. I'd be like, I'm going with you for the rest of your life everywhere. My mom basically said that. Were you offered immediately therapy? I was offered everything, but I did not know what therapy was.

1:10:39I'd say it had like a pretty negative connotation attached to it. Yeah, that's what New York liberals do. Especially back then, too. I just knew it was something that psychiatrists did, and I had such a bad experience at the Children's Justice Center with psychiatrists. A few days after I was rescued, because we were told if I talked to them, they could stand as proxy for me during the trial. That, of course, did not happen. But I'd just been kidnapped by a middle-aged white man claiming God commanded him to. and then I was being very intensively questioned by two middle-aged white men, clearly religious.

1:11:17Yes. Yeah. I was very sheltered as a kid. My parents didn't call a penis a penis. It was like your privates. I had to go down the whole pathway. I'd be like, oh, he hurt me. Oh, he meth-lessed me. Oh, he raped me. Oh, he stuck himself inside. He forced his penis inside my vagina. I had to get to that level of language. With the psychiatrist. With the two psychiatrists. Yes. must have been so uncomfortable. That I was like, this is the worst thing ever. I never want to talk about this again. Yeah, I don't want to think about this anymore. And if these are psychiatrists, I am not going near anyone ever again.

1:11:52And now in retrospect, do you think you would have benefited from the right therapist at that time? If I really understood what it was, it could have benefited me, but I will forever be grateful to my parents because they were understandably panicked when I was like, nope, I'm not doing this. My parents went to therapy and their therapist was like, if she doesn't want to talk, it's okay. It's not going to do her any good if she doesn't want to. You need to let her make her own choices and you just need to make sure you're taking care of yourselves because whatever she's been through will have been awful.

1:12:28And you need to make sure You're both in a place that if she wants to talk to you, you can be in a place to hear it. I am so grateful that they gave me that choice. Well, for all of you guys to heal from this, your father has to accept his own shame, forgive himself, move beyond that. You have to deal with your shame. Everyone's got to get their shame out of the way, kind of, before we can possibly process all this and talk about it. This is dangerous emotion and feeling to be carrying, and I bet everyone was carrying a good deal of it. I actually asked my mom if she ever felt guilty about the window being left cracked open.

1:13:12It wasn't, like, wide open. She said no. Oh, that's good. Because she was like, I didn't invite him into our home. He broke into our home. He violated our home. Right. That wasn't because I said, here, come on in, take my daughter. That's so healthy because when these bad things happen, I start blaming myself. My guilt and shame over my situation was so different from yours, obviously. I wasn't abducted. I was lured. I had bad feelings in my stomach. I ignored those at times. Mind you, I was eight. But I had to really reckon that, yeah, I didn't listen to my gut. I know I didn't. I feel so guilty and shame-ridden about that.

1:13:54And at some point I have to go, and you were eight? I mean, even if you were 50 and it happened, like at the end of the day, so like my foundation, the Elizabeth Smart Foundation, one of our main programs is called Smart Defense. And it's a holistic approach to self-defense, trauma-informed, but it's a combination of Muay Thai, Krav Maga, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. But my director, she is a five-time world champion in her weight class for Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. But she'll tell you, even with all of her training, she could still be raped tomorrow. Because at the end of the day, the only way for sexual violence to end, for rape to end, is for rapists to stop raping.

1:14:33Yeah. To put the onus on the victim is a little crazy. It doesn't matter how old you are, who you are. Those details don't matter. Well, the part that was healing for me, Elizabeth, that sent me fucking bawling is at the end you say you changed your story from you should have done this or you could have done that to you can finish this. You're strong. Keep going. You can survive anything that comes your way. And there's some pride to be had in that because you can kill yourself with I should have done this. And why didn't I say to the cop and why didn't like the self abuse you can give yourself because you didn't act like a fucking hero in a movie.

1:15:14But that a hero is someone that can survive and make it to today. It's fucking so beautiful. I really appreciated that. I mean, each one of us has survived our worst day. Yeah, that's the fucking victory. You're a hero if you survive. There have been times in my life where I hate where I'm at or I don't like what I'm doing or I willingly signed up for a marathon and I'm at like mile 18 and I've hit the wall and I'm like, what the hell am I doing? Why am I here? Why did I pay to torture myself? What's wrong with me? Yeah, exactly. And then I'll be like, no, if all these other people around me can do this, I can do this.

1:15:55I survived nine months of being tortured and kidnapped. If I can survive that. and all these other people haven't experienced that not to judge them because I know everyone has a story no you can say that you're a bad motherfucker they probably haven't done that and so if they can do this I can do this you can do anything how was having your name how did that play out everywhere you went you were Elizabeth Smart you went to college you went to BYU what was the weight of that and did you ever consider changing your name do you have any desire I don't want to be Elizabeth Smart the girl who got kidnapped I would assume you understand.

1:16:30There's Elizabeth Smart, who everyone thinks they know. And then there's me. Right. Well, and then how do you do with pity? Because I bet a lot of people, even upon meeting you, have this like, oh, maybe they think you're fragile. Or how do you deal with that? I mean, the people that have pity for me, they don't know me. Yeah, but that's so healthy to know that. Do I'm on people's pity? No, but if it helps them feel better, just be like, I love you. I prayed for you. I'm so grateful you're alive. I followed your story. I can listen to that. But like, I feel like if you get to know me, then you're like, oh, she's fine.

1:17:05You can kind of separate. So it wasn't a burden for you to have been so well known and then tried to carry on with a normal quote. I'm quoting again, Monica. It's a normal life. No, it was hard. There definitely have been times where I'm like, I am sick of being Elizabeth Smart. Where is the benefit in all of this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or what about when you fell in love? Did it reignite that cycle of I'm damaged, this guy's got to know this about me? Or you had worked through all that by then? No, by that point, I was like, if anyone ever judges me for that, they're not worthy of my time. Yes, good.

1:17:38My husband, he didn't know who I was. I mean, he's from Scotland, born and raised, had no clue who I was. If the Scots are anything, they are stubborn. so he was never afraid to push back or tell me exactly what he thought which I still appreciate but back then I was like thank you because I felt like everyone just would tell me yes or go along with whatever I said probably because I thought I'd break or they didn't want to hurt my feelings or something but he was like nah I don't think so that's a good partner I love that about him Yeah, some days. 51 % of the days. No, I love that about him.

1:18:22What did it do to your relationship with religion? It's so funny, Monica. I was just about to say, the one thing that was really not addressed in the doc, it seems crazy to me that we're not addressing it, is exactly that. How do you think religion is intertwined in this story? Too much. Too much. It's a huge part of it. I have seen enormous, beautiful, positive outcomes of religion. It's working for the vast majority of people and it's a gift to people's life. And I see that. And I also want to say I'm in AA. That's my religion. There's fucking knuckleheads in AA. And if they go out and they kill someone in the name of AA, that's not AA.

1:19:00That's a fucking knucklehead who wanted to use that. So I'm going to recognize all that. I don't want to disrespect anybody when I say what I'm about to say, which is the three Judeo-Christian Old Testament religions. The prophets are all male. The apostles are all male. The characters are all male. The leaders are all male. If you're inundated with that and you are a little bit off, I think if you're a male, you think you are entitled to a lot of shit that this thing said. Well, clearly, only the men talk to God. Only the men lead the people. And this entitlement. And then also this historic thing with child brides and multiple brides.

1:19:40It's all religion, too. and without religion, the scene doesn't work at the library. Why on earth would this person honor that? That's preposterous. When it goes bad, this is the part that goes bad. And I'm just curious, what did all of this do to your feeling about religion? And are you scared to even say it? I am so grateful for the values that I was raised with. I am grateful for the importance that family played in my life, for the belief that God is kind and loving and he's merciful and not vindictive and a harsh, cruel God. I'm so grateful for that. But now as a grownup and looking back on everything that happened and honestly looking at a lot of things in this world, I think it's too easy for a religion to, again, I agree with you.

1:20:33There's many beautiful things. I'm grateful for all of those things, But also now as an adult, just because someone tells me something that doesn't mean I believe it. And it sounds maybe like I'm cynical, but also I just know how quickly people take religion to fanaticism. When someone thinks they're talking to a supernatural being, this is dangerous. Because that supernatural being has the ultimate morality and the ultimate everything. So your justifications are so built in. And it's hard for me to get into Brian, David Mitchell's head and find out if he really believed all of it. But if he really did believe all of it and he is receiving what he thinks is these messages from God, then the laws of the land mean nothing.

1:21:15The police mean nothing. Your judgment means nothing. That's a dangerous tool for a megalomaniacal narcissist to have. What about your dad leaving? My dad leaving the church as we're talking about? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was that part of like, so your dad came out as gay and so he left the church. So I have a really great friend who was raised very, very religious. And she had her struggles with it. But what for her was the breaking point was her brother came out as gay. And the family was like, no way. And she was like, hold on a second. There's no fucking way that I believe in a God that doesn't love my brother as much as everyone else.

1:21:50I'm out. If that's what you're saying it's about, then I'm gone. And I just wondered if anything with you and your dad. I mean, he called me. It was like 6 or 7 in the morning. It was really early. And I was in such a sleep deprived state because my baby wasn't sleeping. I swear I was up all night. So you see a phone call at like six or seven in the morning. Oh, it's horrible. Who died? Like who's in the hospital? What happened? They don't draw the lottery winning ticket at 6 a.m. It's not like he's calling with great news. No, no. That's in the evening. I mean, honestly, I thought my mom was in the hospital.

1:22:21But it's like word vomit. He's just like, Elizabeth, I'm leaving the church. I'm divorcing your mother and I'm gay. Like a run on sentence. Just like. wow and i was like what i'm sorry i haven't had my coffee yet did i come again sorry what'd you say and he just like kept going and going and going i was like what all i could think to say at the end was well you're still my dad i still love you see what i was thinking was so weirdly unique about that situation and why i bring it up is not to be salacious is you had this thought that I might get rejected from this dirty secret I have and I would no longer be loved.

1:23:05And your dad hugged you in that police station. It was very obvious that would never be the case. And then you're weirdly in a situation where he's got this shame and guilt and you get to be the person that also would never, ever abandon him. Yeah, he'll just never stop being my dad. And actually, Especially over the years, it's not that my dad and I weren't ever close, but it was almost like because I was so close with my mom, I'd call my mom and my dad would be in the background. So I didn't necessarily feel like I needed to call my dad because he was like next to my mom. Dads mostly pick up the phone and say, I'll put your mom on.

1:23:41Pretty much. Or like if I went to my parents' house, I'd mostly be there to like hang out with my mom and my dad would be in and out and be like, oh, hi, dad. So then when this happened, something really nice that came out of it was that it made me really establish my own relationship with my dad and not just piggyback it off of my relationship with my mom. When I talk to him now, it's very intentional and not just like, oh, hey, yeah, that's lovely. I think you're astounding. I can't believe how well you have managed and healed from this insane once in a generation story. And as you said, it's happened a bunch of times, so I shouldn't say that.

1:24:19But the fact that you've not only succeeded and kept moving forward and built a family and a life, that you also started your foundation and you've been very active and you've been to Congress and you are on it. You took the worst situation and seemed to have made the best possible outcome from it. Well, thanks. That's very impressive. It is extremely impressive. And I really, really appreciate how openly you talk about all of the shame and guilt in the experience in the doc. I think it's enormously helpful. I'm glad my daughter's got to see that. I actually asked my daughter if she wanted to watch it with me, and she was like, no.

1:24:57How do they compute what happened to you? They don't, right? Because you're just their parent. They only had one, and that parent got abducted. That's how parents are. They know what happened. I mean, they don't know, like, details. Yeah. But they know I was kidnapped and they know I'm like, no sleepovers ever. Totally fair. Because of things. And whenever I say no to something, they're like, why? And I'm like, you know why. Yeah. It's to keep us safe. That's so cute. Oh, safety. I'm like, that's my job. That's right. Yeah. What's the tension like? Because I have this with my wife. I'm like, I don't like that dude.

1:25:30Why does he take so many pictures of kids? Why is he a youth sports coach? She doesn't have kids. I'm like way hyper vigilant about all of it. And I think my wife is generally pretty tolerant of it. Occasionally she's like, you're being nuts. How does that play out? Do you guys have these kind of debates? I say I'm pretty cautious. I also remind myself, not only is it my job to keep them safe, but it's also my job to like prepare them for when they leave home, make sure that they know how to trust their gut and work through their emotions and figure out their own problems. And so my natural instinct is to always, like, intervene and hovering around them.

1:26:07And so I would say I fight a lot against my natural instinct. Yeah. That's hard. Which it is hard. But does your husband ever have to say, Elizabeth, we're good? I'd say we're a lot on the same page. Like, my son decided it'd be a good idea just to go to his friend's house for Halloween instead of coming home first. And we didn't know. Oh, no.

1:26:35No, thank you. So we were like calling the school, calling all of his friends. And I mean, we found him. And then my husband was like, I'm coming to get you right now. Yeah. Can you not do a Scottish accent? I would assume if you live with a Scot. Oh, that's good.

1:26:52Well, again, thank you so much for your openness. I appreciate it. Coming to see us. We really appreciate it for having me. And the documentary is outstanding. It's incredibly well made. It's flawless. It's so good. It's called Kidnapped, Elizabeth Smart, January 21st on Netflix. I appreciate it. And good luck with everything. Oh, where should people go for the Elizabeth Smart Foundation? Yeah, just go to ElizabethSmartFoundation.org or we're on social media. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. All right.

1:27:24Hi there. This is Hermi and Hermi. And if you like that, you're going to love the fact check with Miss Monica. Okay, so we heard back from the New York Times. Big deal. Because last week we were talking about— Oh, yeah. Monday we were discussing the armchair expert on connections. Yes. And I said, you know, we don't know for sure if it's about us or if it's just a phrase. But I took matters into my own hands. I posted and tagged Wino, which is why we're here. They reached out. Hi, Rob. Hope you're well. I'm on the PR team at the New York Times and work closely with Wynaloo, the creator of Connections.

1:28:03Actually, Wynaloo. We know that that's actually how her name is pronounced, but we just keep saying it wrong. I saw Dax's recent Instagram story about Connections, which inspired me to reach out. We're huge fans of Armchair Expert, and knowing that Dax is a fan of Connections and New York Times games more broadly made this feel like a particularly fun and natural overlap. Anyway, they're going to send us some Connections New York Times swag, which is exciting. But. I think we can conclude from this that we're right. I don't know. I just don't. I need to hear it. I need proof. I'm a fact checker, so I need to hear it from her.

1:28:38The horse's ass? Yeah. From Winna herself. Well, first of all, Winna hearted it. Great. Confirmation number one for me. And then this is like it's a done deal. I think for me to feel good, it would need to be armchair expert podcast. Okay. Okay. That's asking for, might as well spell out our name. She can only be so blatant about her. Why? Fandom, she has ethics. No, she spells out, there's stars on there. What would be fun? Well, A, I want to talk to her. So we're going to try to talk to her. We're going to try, yeah. Second, I wonder how many other things she's a fan of that we're missing. I want to find out her list of her little fun hobbies that she's winking at.

1:29:19Like how many people is Winna winking at? She winks. The Winna wink. They'll call it from now on. But this, okay, so this is to my broader point. Like, sometimes she'll do categories and it'll be like, you know, what it'll end up being is like movie stars in horror movies. Yeah. Or whatever. Yeah. I don't think that means necessarily that, like, she's a huge fan of those people. No, for sure. If she's just trying to do a person and connect through four projects. Yeah, yeah. But this isn't that. Maybe she thought we'd win. And so that's why she had that set. Maybe she went out money She was like She's like how do we change it to good hang Yeah she thought it was gonna be a celebratory wink Yeah Anyway we do love connections So it's just If you had to pick between a wink from Wina on connections Or a golden globe What's your pick?

1:30:11Oh Wina 100 % Yeah 1000 % Yeah Cause I like it entered our other life Like it entered our real life I know Even though it was our real life It also entered our real life It entered in a way that was like, we engage with this. We like it so much to feel like, oh, maybe she likes it. Would be great. So that was fun. Did you have a post-show come down? Yeah. I think of my adrenaline. I had an adrenaline dump. But also, as I keep saying, but I keep cutting. My mouth really hurts very badly. And when your mouth hurts. And you use your mouth to make a living. Exactly. Like a prostitute or a flute player or a podcaster.

1:30:57Oh, I can't imagine being a flute player right now. What about a prostitute? No, I could just use my hands. No, you have to use your mouth. No, I'm not just using my hands. Your clients really, really insist. Trust me. They would not want me to use my mouth if they saw the inside of my lip right now. It looks gross. I think you're overestimating Johns in general, and that's kind of you. You are never judgmental. Yeah, but your mouth, you know, you used to talk, used to eat. That's when it's really activated. To drink, which is why I'm extremely dehydrated. And because it gets so much action, it's just not healing.

1:31:31It won't heal. I keep biting it. It won't heal. But you had a huge output. I just want to acknowledge, because I was with you yesterday, and I was like, I can tell she's had a really busy week. Like, you went to six events. Lots of events. Different outfits and the stress of the interviews and the pictures. Like, I could tell yesterday it was like, oh, my God, what have I been through in the last six days? But it is. It's a mixie. And I was doing that with a flu as well. Yeah. It was a mix because it was. It was a lot of events over the course of the week, which were fun. Like, they're fun. But they, you know, I think people, I'm just going to get, you know, people look at celebrities.

1:32:16movie stars mainly and TV stars and stuff. And they're like, what do they have to complain about? They just go and get their makeup done and their hair done and they wear cute outfits and they take pictures and like annoying for you to complain, which I get. Yeah. But it's not that easy to like, it takes a long time. These glam routines take a long time. That's your dude. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. If you're a woman, you it's it's hours and hours. And if you have a job, as I do, you don't have other things fall by the wayside. So then there's like stress building because you're like, oh, I'm behind on this and I'm behind on this.

1:32:58And I'm just sitting here getting my makeup done like. Yeah, I don't think being prettier is going to help. the edit. Exactly. And then the main thing for me, and this is, this is weird because it's normally not very cold in California. It was cold last week. Very chilly. It was cold. I was outside in a, you can't wear a jacket, right? You're not allowed. If you're a, if you're a woman to wear a jacket, cause there are pictures. You got to stand on your tiptoes and your purse is a fucking joke. I was thinking this, because I'm always in this sitch with Kristen. I'm going places with her, and she has this clutch.

1:33:34It's a joke. It's not even a thing. And so I'm holding all of her stuff. The phone won't fit in there. You know, the fucking nicotine spray won't. So I'm, you know, come multiple sprays. And I'm just like, why is a bigger purse ugly? What the fuck? Why can't you have like a normal size purse on the carpet? And like in life, like you, They're a big – my purse is enormous and it's very cute. I love it. Your medicine kit. Yeah, I have a full pharmacy in there. Your apothecary. But I can't – no, you can't. That would be a big, like, bad thing to do, faux pas, to bring a big purse. You bring a tiny purse.

1:34:12You can't wear a coat because that covers up your outfit. And so you're also freezing cold but have to act very, very comfortable. Oh, but I just had a breakthrough idea for you for your first billion-dollar business. okay you need to design a very elegant handbag okay that has like it's designed to hold your pharmacy oh like it has individual compartments you know it's got like pill packets that come in there and like little uh sleeves like you put a coke can in but it's for pill size things and it because generally it's just sloshing around but if you have the whole inside was lined with like little railings to put all your pills in your bottles and you somehow do a play on apothecary I don't know.

1:34:54I don't have it yet, but it's like apothecary. You know, it's a bag of Gary or something. It's a bag and apothecary are mixed. Oh, okay. And that's your new billion-dollar idea. The problem is I'm— I only want$100 million of it. I just want a little$100 million of it. Some person. The issue is, although I could do a good marketing campaign and stuff. Yeah, yeah. But, like, I'm the only one walking around with a pharmacy in my bag. It may be as complete as yours, but I'm— I'm telling you most women, when I say I need something, they have like, they have fucking Advil in their purse. Yeah. They have stuff.

1:35:30They have the basics. All you women have medicine in your purse to varying degrees. Okay, but people have the basics, but mine is extreme. Yeah. And it comes, I know because I'm with other women and people will be like, oh, I'm. Wish I had a Midol. Yeah. And then I'm like, I have it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're like, I didn't even know they still made those anymore. And it's like, I have it. Right. It's old, but I have it. There's a spill and I'm like, here's my Tide stain stick. No one else has it. You know, I have it all. Yes. And so I need to figure out a way to convince the world that they need it all.

1:36:04I can make it on board too. And it's like, there's also a man bag. We don't believe in medicine or carrying medicine. You know that. You know that. I know, but I've also provided from my pharmacy to men because they're like, they're so injured and hurt. I'm all over the place. Sorry. ADHD now, but this hit me as a theory the other day. I was reading an article about that sad seasonal affective disorder. Affective. Affective disorder. Yes, which I suffer from. Women suffer from 5X of men. I just read this two days ago. And I started thinking, of course it is because y 'all were gatherers. And you're gathering when it's sunny.

1:36:44And in the wintertime, there's not much to be picked. Now, granted, I understand when we're doing a lot of other stuff. But the trips out, the exercise, the walk, the gathering, the chatting that happened in hunting, gathering, all that stuff is diminished during these cold and non-harvesty months. And I think there's some connection there. That's my new theory. Okay. I like that theory. Now, when did daylight savings start? It started, I want to, I'm going to guess, Rob, you're going to look it up, but I'm going to guess it started in the 50s and it has something to do with farming. Oh, right.

1:37:22Yeah, it is. It has something to do with farming and some, oh, it has something to do with kids working before school. So I think when school got mandatory, you needed daylight to get the kids to be able to work a little bit before they went out. What is it, Rob? All right. It was a wartime measure in 1918. For seven months during World War I, it was added in the interest of adding more daylight hours to conserve energy resources. Oh. Wow. I fucking got that way wrong. Why do we both think that thing I just said? Yeah, I heard that too. Maybe you told me. Urban legend. I think either work. Okay.

1:37:56No, we're here for facts, Rob. Early 70s, there was another energy crisis, and they passed a bill in Congress to make it permanent. And then Arizona said, fuck that, and Hawaii said, fuck that. I know, and I wish California had said, fuck that. We already said, fuck it. I don't know why we can't enact it. We looked it up once, I forget. But, you know, I've changed my tune on it a little bit. Oh, don't do this to me. And you may too as you age because I now get up earlier and I love, my favorite thing is I'm on my bed meditating and quite often I start, it's dark. And then at the end of that 20 minutes, I open my eyes and I can see the hillside of Griffith Park is now lit up.

1:38:40That's nice. And I love that. And right before Daylight Savings kicks in, I'm doing that whole thing in the dark. Right. And I'm like, I'm up and it's depressing to be starting my day in the dark. But you sleep a little later. So you're never dealing with when it's dark. It doesn't get light till 730. You don't really know. Okay, I've been wanting to bring this up forever. Okay. I wrote it down in my notes of fact check stuff. Great. About a month and a half ago. Okay. As you know, I cut my hair. Uh-huh. And my bathroom isn't backlit. It's all front lit. Uh-huh. So when I work out, I get this crazy view of stuff going on behind my head that I normally can't see.

1:39:18Yeah. And so I have moved a set of scissors into the gym. Right. And so you might know that. I trim my hair while I'm working out pretty often. I'll always trim it in two different spots, and then I get the vacuum out, and I vacuum where my hair fell. Okay. But as I'm doing that, I realize I'm seeing your guys' hair everywhere. Oh, no. Yeah, like you guys are just dumping fucking hair everywhere. And it's long as hell. And you guys never think I better vacuum that up. So I'm seeing in the gym, there's just like long hairs laying everywhere. And then I think, why can't I just leave my cuttings on the ground?

1:39:54But isn't that funny? But if you think about it, there's more of y 'all's long, crazy hairs than my little short trimmings. But I would feel insane to leave those short trimmings, which you probably can't even see. But it's different. Why isn't it the same? Okay, it's different because our hair isn't falling out in like a big clump on the ground and there's just a big clump there. It's like one like probably just fell out. And then like later over there one will fall out. Yeah, and then after a week of that, if I look across my gym floor, there's long hair everywhere. You actually can't see any of my trimmings.

1:40:29But you can't. I'm not going to get a vacuum to vacuum up one hair. Thank you. You're right. I know you won't. And none of you will. but it's insane. Oh my God. It's insane that mine's like tinier and I'm like, of course I'm going to clean up the hair that I put on the ground. Okay, but if like when I get my hair cut, I clean up that hair. Right, because it's an enormous pile. Well, because there's, it's in a pile. It's not like it's scattered around. But let's not use hypotheticals. Let's use the one that's happening in my gym. So there's these little tiny, like I'm cutting, you know, probably a quarter of an inch off in places.

1:41:05But how much? And it's falling. You can't see it. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Like eight hairs? You know, whatever. I just do a snip. But here's my point. We've missed the forest for the trees or whatever the saying is. No, these are important questions. You can't even see where my hair is on the ground after I trim. Okay. And yet, I know I would feel insane to not get the vacuum out and vacuum where I was standing. Because I know I just cut my hair over the floor. So are you suggesting women should carry a vacuum? A little mini vacuum? Let's see how your bag turns out. If you can figure out how to get a dust buster in there without a big bulge in it, so it doesn't look like you're carrying around the...

1:41:46Well, the cumulative length is probably similar, too. It probably lasts, Rob. What did you say? The cumulative length of Dax's hair versus long hair. That's not how it works. It's like if you walk through and you see a big clump. But you don't. I just want to see it for myself to see if I can see the hair. This is where I'm going with all of it. I'm not asking you to do anything. Okay. Okay? I'm trying to see if I could just unethically cut my hair in there and just forget about it. Because there's already fucking hair everywhere. And I can see the other hair. And no one seems to care about that.

1:42:20So why am I so worried about my little shavings that you can't even see? I'm questioning. I was like having a moral dilemma up there. Wow. Wondering if I'm free to just cut and run. It's your house. You can do whatever you want. I know, but I wanted your opinion on it. I mean, look, I guess if you can't see it, you could leave it. And we're living with the other hair that's very visible. Until the whole space gets vacuumed, right? Like, that's the thought. You shouldn't probably never vacuum. Well, no. But I guess then, sure, I guess you could leave it until the weekly vacuum. I just was vacuuming.

1:42:57I'm like, this is kind of crazy. Why do I even do this? I can't see my hair and I see all this other hair. I have a question. Now, if you're cooking and little, like, you know, I don't know, salt gets on the floor or something, just a little bit, like one or two, do you vacuum it up? Not for two grains of salt. Right. Exactly. So it's kind of like that. Like when you're cooking, it's like sometimes things get on the floor. I don't vacuum after every time I cook. I know, which we probably should, I guess. But then, yeah, by the end of the week, it's like, yeah, the floor is dirty. It's crunchy.

1:43:28It needs. You walk in there barefoot and you've got basically seasoning, like seasoned fries. So I think if you're comfortable with it and your family's comfortable with it, you can wait for the weekly vacuum. Oh, man. It just felt like a pointless endeavor. Yeah. When we were already accepting of all this two-foot-long hair that's everywhere. The issue is I think the women probably, unless it's like how I imagined it in like a big clump. Yeah. That's bad, right? But if it's like you're saying you can't see it, I don't think anyone has a problem with it except you. You should see what I pull out of our drain.

1:44:09I call it fishing. Sure. And about once a year, I'm in the shower and I'm noticing, oh, this stuff's starting to back up a little bit. Like the water's not flowing the way. Time to go fishing. And I have a fishing rod I've created. It's a coat hanger unwound. And then I've bent up a little hook at the bottom. and I can get it down in the drain and takes a bunch of, and then I twist. Oh, yeah. And then I get it out. And Lincoln generally will join me because she likes to get, because what gets pulled out of there? Yeah, I know. You guys. A whole possum. No, it's a mouse. Like back to your water fear.

1:44:42Yeah. It's a mouse and it smells so gross and it also turns into like oil. Like somehow it's decomposing. It's always like in a black tar. I know. I don't get that. But let me tell you something. I think you need to teach the girls in your house about hair walls. No. Yes. No, because they're not going to then clean the wall. No, they have to clean the wall. They have to, but they're not going to. I'm like trying. There's like what they should do and what's going to happen. Okay, but would you, okay. So then would you, Dax, rather have hair on the wall or hair on the drain for you to have to pull out as a rat?

1:45:16If I have to pick between cleaning the wall every time I shower. No, my resentment would get. It's like, motherfuckers, you put your hair on the wall. I'll take it then to the trash. Like it'd be a daily resentment probably. Oh, wow. Versus once a year I go fishing. Oh. And there is, I must admit. You like it. Well, there's a reward. Like when you pull that rat out of there. Yeah. You're like, oh my God, I'm so glad it's out of there. It's the same thing. I don't understand what's going on. I need to talk to an evolutionary biologist. When you pop a great pimple. Yeah. The amount I think about the moment it popped for the rest of the day.

1:45:53Oh, I don't have that. You don't. I just keep going back to back to the moment. Like there's such a wave of relief. You've gotten that out. Yeah. And I'm talking to pop like a satisfying moment. It's like, oh, thank God I did that. Usually you regret it. You're like, I shouldn't do this. But occasionally it goes really well. Yeah. Just went really well for me at the hotel. Oh, that's nice. Night before Golden Globes. And I just kept thinking. I was even thinking about it two days later. Like I just want that moment to keep happening over and over. Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. Don't say that because then you don't, but you don't, you don't want your skin to be bad enough.

1:46:28See, I think this is skin privilege personally because, because I don't have that because it happens enough. Like, it's not like if it goes. Do you not get that huge wave? In the moment, it's like, thank God it's out. Thank God. Okay, great. We get that. Yeah. But it's the recurring thing that I think is skin privilege because like, I know that's coming. I'm doing the opposite. I'm like, I just like hope I can get a lot of time in between the next time I have to do that. Yeah. I don't want more, but I love that moment so much. There's something going on. Yeah. It's like this isn't supposed to be here and I got rid of it.

1:47:11Yes. And now I look better. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:47:28So, wait, what were we saying before skin? Oh, the rat. Yeah. Okay. So hair walls are great for the listener. You wash and like when you condition and it's like it's coming out. You know, it's coming out. You feel it in your shedding. And you like grab it in your hands and you stick it on the wall. And then you do that throughout the shower. It's important. This is important stuff. Then you're not clogging your drain. and it's also, But do you take it off the wall? Yes. Okay. Sometimes I, okay, sometimes I don't, but I live by myself. I get, that's my privilege. Did you rub boogers on your headboard?

1:48:01No, no, I don't want to talk about burger boogers. I did not. I hate the hair wall too. You hate it? Yeah. But you put boogers somewhere, Rob? Kleenex. Oh, fuck, we didn't have Kleenex. What were you guys for the Rockefellers? I would, you know what I would do? Kids, one of the kids I knew they were just rubbing it. I know. They're disgusting. I would lean over and put it on the metal railing under my bed so no one would ever see it. I want to cut this because this is so disgusting. And yes, I did that. Okay. You put it under the railing? I put it like under the bed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every kid in America must be doing this.

1:48:34I bet every kid's bed is just full of boogers. Why don't you just flick it on the carpet? Yeah, some people do carpet. I never did that. I wonder what age you outgrow the booger under the bed. When you can afford Kleenex. Oh. But I don't have Kleenex. I do have Kleenex by the other side of my bed, but I don't use it. Like, I don't. Then what are you doing with your boogers? I don't get, I don't do that anymore. I don't get nearly enough boogers. I miss them so much. When you're a kid, you have boogers all the time. I never have boogers now. Maybe it's because you're, it probably is because we were picking them out.

1:49:06And so it was creating like more and more and more and more. Like my throat clearing. Yeah. And now when you don't touch it, it's just like, it's fine. Once in a blooming moment, I'm digging around because God, I inspect all the time. Oh, you do? I'm constantly in my nose like looking for one. There's never any. Yeah, it's often on camera, by the way. And it hates me looking. You do touch your nose a lot. No, I don't. Yeah, stop. Well, my fucking nostrils. Like, you know, I can put two fingers in my nostrils. No problem. Most people can't do that. Yeah, I can't do that. Well, I can almost out.

1:49:37I mean, I have the biggest nostrils. You remember my Teen People magazine shoot when I was skydiving? I look like Porky the Pig. You told us about it, but we never, we couldn't find it and we shouldn't find it. No, I hope. If anyone has it, please burn it. Yeah. Or tuck it under your booger railing under your bed. No, don't. Guys, I don't want to talk about boogers. For some reason of all. That's so weird. I know. For some reason of all the things, we talk about so much gross stuff. And I'm actually, I'm fine with all of it. But there is something about boogers that is disgusting to me. And I don't know where that line is drawn.

1:50:19Like, why? Yeah. Probably because when I was a kid, like, boogers are the thing that makes you gross. Yeah, they're disgusting on other people. But that's just like farts. Reading so many new articles that it's really good to smell your farts. I sent you one and said you're going to die. No, it didn't. Not to smell them. What did it say? No. It said the gas is good for your body. It says holding in farts is bad. I sent you another one. You did? Yeah, there's some chemical compound that they have figured out is good for you to breathe in. Oh, my God. Yeah, and I said you're going to die if you don't start farting and breathing.

1:50:56I'm not doing it. I'd rather die, I guess. Oh, my God. This is where we're at. I know I've already told this, but it reminds me of the time I went to my brother's field hockey game when I was like six, and I was sitting on this log. And, in fact, it was a telephone pole laid on its side that was a makeshift bench in the field. Oh, okay. And I'm sitting on it and I'm watching my brother play field hockey. And another little boy sat down next to me. He was my age. He's probably watching his brother. Yeah. And then out of nowhere, we're both just looking forward. And he goes, you eat your boogers.

1:51:25Ugh. That was the icebreaker. You eat your boogers. And I didn't. I'm not judgmental of it, but I didn't eat my boogers. And I was like, no. And he's like, no. And I'm like, no. He goes, I do. Oh. Like he had to get it off his chest or something. Maybe I've always... Monica, I'm about to compliment myself. Oh, God. I've always had this skill. Maybe people just want to tell me... You've always had this skill bringing out people's vulnerabilities. People want to, but I didn't even do anything. There's just something about my face where people are like, look at this piece of shit. I'll tell him anything, but he's not going to be judgmental on me.

1:51:58Maybe it's your nostrils. Ding, ding, ding. Could have been. But what a great moment in childhood. I like that boy, because you know what? After you said no, he could have said me either. Right. My brother does. That's what I was asking. Yeah, he was so into it. He was probably like, I can't wait to talk about the joy of doing this. I can't wait to find out if this guy's doing the same thing. Like your joy of pulling out the rat from the drain. It's weird. But anyway. I do want to show you a picture of the rat. No, I'm good. You don't want to see it. I don't like rats. I know. No one in my house wanted to see the picture either.

1:52:29I was so bummed. Because I want to. That's like the closest I can get to going and killing a gazelle. Right. Like I want my family to reward me that I was willing to do the gross thing. Because that's the guy's job is to like handle that stuff. so if I do it I want everyone to go like thank you dad we didn't want to touch that but you're brave enough to do it you know what what they would do that for what they would say thank you for what is if you clean the hair wall every day okay you're still on this hair wall yes the hair wall is is important and um it's it preserves the drain sometimes it's cool like at the end of the at the end of the shower you're like oh my god like so much hair yeah and then you're like oh oh, no, I'm in perimenopause because all this hair is coming out.

1:53:14And then you forget about that the next day and that happens again. Once you have your period and it's healthy. Well, you still have your period during perimenopause. I know, I know. Anyway, hair wall. Do you think I could – okay, maybe I could have a new product. Well, I was just going to say why don't you have a suction cup with a little bucket on there. Right. That you can just dump the hair in there. Yeah, it's just like more fun. because it's not even about. You like to go smack. It's efficient because you're just like, you're doing this and then you just like. She's running her hands through her hair and then she's reaching over to the wall.

1:53:50Because of the water. Are you going to duck and do this in your new fancy bathroom? Of course. Oh my God. I'm not going to clog up the drain in my new fancy. That's true. And the primary bath has blue tiles. So I bet my black hair on that blue tile would be so nice. Oh yeah. Oh really nice. I have a humongous thing. I have to pause this. I thought we were doing this tomorrow, so I had prepared for this, but now I'm remembering I have something enormous. Can you give me one second? I'll be right back.

1:54:21Okay, I'm back. Okay.

1:54:25Groot. What happened? Got fan mail. Oh, wow. Hi, Groot. And Delta is so pumped. Oh, my God. She's becoming a skid mom. I came home yesterday, and I said, where's Delta? and Kristen said she's upstairs because Groot got fan mail and they were up there going through the fan mail together. What is it? Groot was sent by Joseph Lopez a book. Oh, wow. Yes. It's called Maeve and Charlie Meet the Neighbors. Oh. It's about a dog and I guess that's a squirrel or a chipmunk or a ring-tailed lemur. I'm not good at animals, as you know. Okay. But he got his first bit of fan mail. Was there like a new letter there?

1:55:11And now Groot is, he's famous. Oh my God, Groot. And he hasn't acted the least bit different. But this book has been dedicated to Groot. It says, for Groot, much love. That is so cute. Joseph Lopez, thank you. That's so cute. This made everyone's day. This is so sweet. I am. I'm a little, I'm concerned. I already predicted this in my head. What's your concern? He's a kid. He's handling it so well. He doesn't act entitled at all. Not yet. He's completely humble. Okay. He's humbled by the gesture. He's more humble post-fan mail than pre-fan mail. Okay. I just, you know, it's like child stars is a tricky thing.

1:55:55It is a tricky thing. But if you've got great parents. Yep. Who have been through this. That's true. That's helpful. You mean great grandparents. Grandparents. I'm his grandpa. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, his grandpa who he lives with, though. Right, but you're his grandpa. Okay, I'm his only male in his life, and he really looks up to me because he's a boy in a tree. I mean, I guess since you did drugs, maybe you could talk to him. Yeah. But, like, I just— About what ones are good? See, that's my worry. No, he's not—as you know, he has a lot of different challenges because his cardiovascular system is half tree, half boy.

1:56:31Yeah. He breathes carbon dioxide and oxygen. Yeah. So I don't think he should inhale anything. Yeah. I don't want him to do anything. I wouldn't mind that he does mushrooms and expands his mind. As a kid? No. When he's an adult. I know. So you need to talk to him about that because he's going to have the opportunity young. Because he's famous. Yes. And drugs are going to come to him. But he's not Drew Barrymore. He's not going to nightclubs. He just is here at the house. I'm just worried he'll start sneaking out. hanging out with other celebrity kids. Celebrity kid trees. Who are the hot celebrity kids now?

1:57:04I feel like when we were young, there were so many celebrity kids and I don't feel like there's a lot now. Yeah, like - There were the Stranger Things kids, but now they're adults. You're right. Did you say you saw one that he was hot? Yeah, he's hot. Fuck. Yeah, he's not a kid anymore. He's 33. No, the adolescent boy, the boy from adolescence. Yes. He's - He's a child star. A kid star. I think he's won every award they make. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, who else? What happens is a few child stars go AWOL, and then we just think all child. But look, I was friends with Josh Hutcherson and Jonah Bobo. All the ones I knew have done just fine.

1:57:43Yeah, that's true. Okay, this brings up my last point, and I'm done with points. Okay. The more that the film business has eroded, which it has so dramatically. Mm-hmm, yeah. The Oscars means less and less and less. I was even thinking like, who even comes now? You got like two good movies that I remember, four good movies. Well. It's really like more and more that show is going to mean nothing. Hmm. Because of the movies that are getting made, they're like big spectacle movies. Yeah. And then there's a couple movies no one sees. There's not like this huge, you know, treasure trove of$35 to$60 million movies that were made.

1:58:21You know, your Michael Clayton's, all these incredible movies that we all love. They don't exist. There's really tiny independent movies and then there's a couple big movies. And just all in all, it means less and less. And yet that's still somehow got the most cachet and it makes less and less sense now. Like, are they going to use, are they going to incorporate TV or what? Well, no, I still think it used to, it used to still kind of be that. Like there would be indie, there'd be, you know, Critical Darlings. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then one or two like big movies. And I think that's going to happen this year.

1:58:59But the point is in 2004, there were 35 movies that all did well. That everyone saw. That big stars were in. Yeah. And now there's about five. I mean just really his quantity has shrank by 85%. And it was a real shootout. It's like right now it's like, you know, it's really between a couple movies. There's only a couple of big, great movies. It means less and less. But I guess then it's like getting into that club, like being a critical darling. But at what point do we're like, like certainly viewership, like no one's even seen the couple movies that they're going to have up there. You know, back then you like you had a bunch of favorite movies.

1:59:44You saw 10 excellent movies that year. You wanted to see which one was going to win Best Picture. And it's like right now, it's like you either want Marty Supreme or one battle after another. Like, here's your 50-50 shot. Well, no. I mean, Hamnet won the Golden Globe, and people really like that. But also, it's supposed to be so sad. Yeah. And, you know, Train Dreams. People like it. It's just—well, also, Train Dreams is on Netflix. So it's like that's confusing. Will that be at the Academy Awards? I don't think so. No, of course. Yeah, it was in theaters. But again, it's a joke release to qualify for that.

2:00:22It wasn't in 3 ,000 theaters the way it would have been in the early 2000s. I don't think that matters. Sentimental Value also will be nominated. Great movie. No other choice. Yeah, I haven't seen that. This amount of movies came out in one month in 2002. Right. Like from September to December, there was 15 well-funded, beautifully shot, podium-seeking films. And so are they going to either invite in what people are watching, which is TV. Oh, Sinners will be. Sinners, yeah, that's true. That's a good one. You know, will they widen their net? Because they're getting less and less relevant. Maybe.

2:01:10People aren't gathering around talking about movies. Like Hamnet's probably amazing. People in Oklahoma are not at the supermarket chatting about it right now, guarantee it. But people were at the supermarket talking about many of the movies that were coming out in the 2000s. The way they're now at the supermarket talking about Stranger Things. Right. And every other great show that's out. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. I don't know. What's the most popular movie box office-wise this past year, 2025? Wicked. Right, which will probably get a nomination. Sinners. What was in the box office category?

2:01:47They have that now. See, they were smart enough to add that. They're like, okay, this thing has changed, so we've got to recognize what's working. Right. Whereas to me, the Academy Awards is just like, no, we're this thing. It's very prestigious, but it's meaning less and less and less, and I just wonder if they're going to evolve. Minecraft, Lilo and Stitch, Superman, Jurassic World, and Zootopia 2. It's all franchises virtually. Superman. Good for our friend. James Gunn. Friend of the pot. Yeah, I like James Gunn. Yeah, that was a great episode. And the Emmys now, people want to know the Emmys.

2:02:20They have 10 favorite shows. Right. The Emmys is what the Academy Awards was. You said 2004 Oscars? Yeah, what do we got? Let's look. Okay, best picture nominees. Master and Commander. Huge movie. I didn't see it. And original. Not a franchise. Not IP. Master and Commander, The Far Side of the World. I have to sneeze, but it's not coming. Seabiscuit. Oh, original. Huge. Movie stars. Lost in Translation. Oh, Bill Murray. ScarJo. Okay. What a movie. These are all so low, though, on the box office. See? No, not the first two. 33 for Master and Commander. Okay, what was the second one? Seabiscuit.

2:03:04Seabiscuit. $200 million movie. Okay, so what? Seabiscuit did not make$17 million. No, no, it made$120. It's 17th rank-wise. 17th in the box office that year. Still, hundreds of millions of dollars globally. But he's saying on the list, like, it's not just the best, the biggest movies. It's usually not correlated. You're just saying more people saw it, saw movies back then. It's more than that. The movies were well-funded. They're visually stunning. The craftsmanship, they have the budget for it. The quality of the movies has fallen. I disagree with you on that. I think the movies that were nominated this year are very high quality and good.

2:03:45Whether people see them or not, I don't know. But they are good movies. What's the budget of Hamnet? Let's see if you can find that. or any of these really other than a one battle got a budget and that's because of leo 30 to 35 million for hamlet for hamlet yeah that's not tiny it's not terrible it's not great i mean generally these these high-end dramas were like 40 to 60 it doesn't matter okay yeah anyway also lord of the rings is on there okay i mean come on lord of the rings and then mystic river Yeah, Sean Penn. Fucking Clint East. No. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But they were like, yeah, people went, just people went to the movies more.

2:04:28Yeah, and so people were invested. So, like, they had fallen in love with that movie. And then they want to see if it's going to win. But I think with Netflix and stuff, like, people are still seeing it. They're just seeing them in their house. And great. Yeah. So what I'm saying is instead of doing this like fake, we're going to release it in 13 screens for one weekend so we qualify. That's just a loophole we would acknowledge. The real distribution is on Netflix. So just if you're the Academy Awards, even if you don't want to include TV, forget this fucking distribution thing. Right. Include the ones that there's other great movies on other streamers that didn't do the theatrical distribution.

2:05:07Amazon wouldn't put out Roadhouse on five theaters so they could be. You know, there's a lot of these movies, but they're not even playing that game. So it's like Academy Awards, how about you fucking get over this distribution thing? So just to get more, I mean, if they want to save this thing. Right. I guess that's true. But I like that they're putting movies into theaters. I saw a fair amount of movies last year. Let me be clear. I wish everything, I wish it were 2000. Yeah. But because it's not, and it's not what's happening, why watch the Academy Awards? Yeah, they're probably going to need to add in the streamers.

2:05:45They're going to have to do something, yeah. Yeah. Okay, I just looked up 2000. This is like now fun. Okay, yeah. What's happening in 2000? Okay, Cider House Rules. Great. I didn't see that. 45th. Toby. But again, Rob, even 45th is 60 times more box office than any movie that's nominated other than one battle. Do we have that? And Marty Supreme's doing well. It is. Because of that kid. Right. Timmy. I admire how much he worked to get that movie to work. He did. He pushed hard. Then we have Green Mile. Great movie. Tom Hanks. Sam Rockwell, Friend of the Pod. Yeah, he was great. Crazy. That's a great movie.

2:06:20Sixth Sense. Oh, my God. Great movie. Breakthrough movie. Such a good movie. The Insider. That's Michael Mann. Oh, yeah, Michael Mann. I didn't see it. So good about the Philip Morris 60 Minutes debacle. I'll watch it. Kurt Russell. Can you guess? Can you? Okay, I'll give you a hint. Okay. See if you can guess the last movie. It's all. This is a tough year. They were all tough. That's my point. I guess you're right. I guess you're right. This movie is scandalous. Eyes on a Child. No. It has. It had someone in it who's now been canceled. Kevin. Whatever his fucking name is. Spacey. Spacey. The big one.

2:07:06Seven? No. Usual Suspects. No. It's scandalous. Is this where he got sexually harassed at work by Demi Moore? No. That's Michael Douglas. There's two women. Oh, sexy women? And, well, there's three women. I think I know what it is. You know what it is? What is it? American Beauty? Yes. Good job. Oh, my favorite. Great movie. I love that movie. What about 98? God, did I love American Beauty. That is such a good movie. Oh, oh, oh. Oh, God. Okay. We're going to have to cap it at hearing. I want to do one more. I know. Maybe this will be a runner we do. Okay, but can I do one more? Yeah, yeah, do one more.

2:07:46That's why I said here's where we cap it. Okay, because I just did a random year. I didn't even think about it. Go to a hunting. Oh, I know this. I should know. This is 96. This is 98, which I also thought was too late. God, I thought I... I know. It's weird. I'm very confused by that. Okay, hold on. Let me know. I'm nervous, but this is what AI... No, 98's right. Okay. Go to a hunting. This year, this year is so hard. Good one, team. Titanic. As good as it gets. Oh, James Bell. Fucking great movie. Yes. The Full Monty. Oh, show it. And L.A. Confidential. Fuck. Man, Russell Crowe was on fire. Yeah, he really was.

2:08:30This is an impossible year. I guess, God, you're right. All these years we're putting in all the movies, at least three movies are like, how will we know? I know. Yeah. It's different. It's insanely different. And now you're just like, I don't know. Yeah, there's. Because even if you want, like, I want it to be sentimental value because that movie is so beautiful. And there's also a movie called Sorry Baby that I think is incredible. But they're smaller. That's right. They definitely, yeah. The things that would have been at the Independent Spirits Awards that year. Right. And they would have been in the smaller, you know.

2:09:06Or they might have made it in, but it would have been like, wow. The point is there were studio movies that were phenomenal. Now there's only indie movies that are phenomenal. That's the point I'm trying to make. We got there. Oh, my God. Love you. Love you. Let's do some facts. Okay. This was wild. Yeah. It's one of those. We have like five or six years where after the interview, every single person that bumps into me is going to hear the entire story. because I think like most, I don't think we were alone and not knowing all the twists and turns of this case. Yeah. I mean, the fact that she interacted with law enforcement, he got arrested while she was in captivity.

2:09:41All this stuff is like, if you were watching it in a movie, you might call bullshit. I know. I've also since watched the doc. Uh-huh. And, you know, we talk in depth on the episode, which is amazing, but there's a lot more in the doc, like a lot more little pieces where you're like, what the fuck? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, watch it. Oh, God, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it is so. You need to see all the visuals. Like, them in the white outfits is so creepy. Oh, my God. I was talking to my mother because I was very inclined to share her parting message in the doc. As my mother is also a survivor.

2:10:25And so she's laying in bed with her boyfriend, Dan, when I'm FaceTiming her. Yeah. And he's like overhearing me talk about this whole thing. And he goes, because he lived in Salt Lake during that time. Oh, my God. And he said, my ex-wife and I saw them. No. Yeah. We saw the three people in the white outfits. And we were like, what is wrong? What's going on? Stop it. Yeah. I wonder if I saw them, if I, I mean, no. But like, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? Call the police every time you see something that looks a little weird? Like, you can't. You can't in this city. Yeah, it's a tricky line.

2:11:09I don't know. No, I'm not going to act like I would have somehow done something. But the thing I get yelled at a lot for, if there was a girl missing, I saw a girl covered head to toe. I think I would. You know, like, I think I would because I don't mind confrontation. Right. But you know what's weird in that picture? Rob just showed a picture and like, because she's so covered. Yeah. It's hard to tell that she's a young girl. I don't think it is. I mean, all you see. She's so youthful that eye, that whole eye section, forehead without a single wrinkle. I mean. I bet there's a lot of people in Salt Lake that feel bad that they saw them around.

2:11:48Well, that was about to be my question. Do you think Dan's like, oh, fuck. Like, I wish I had done something. but you can't do that because like no I don't think he thought Elizabeth smart as much as he thought who are these freaks in our town exactly that are walking around like it's the 1600s exactly he didn't connect the dots like oh that might be Elizabeth smart because then maybe he would feel anyone who look any human with a conscious that then learns what happened to her that knows they could have intervened is gonna feel guilty I think some level of guilt yeah But you'd have to have the inclination that like, oh, do we do I think maybe that's that girl?

2:12:29Yeah. OK, I guess I won't think about it again. Then you'd feel bad. But I what I'm saying is in this city for this was happening now and it was this city. Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. There's so many people looking crazy. I mean, just being honest, like I wouldn't know what was what I wouldn't. I don't you know what I mean? I do know what you mean. But for me, this is different. But this is when you cover a woman's face, you're not Muslim. But I guess we might have to assume they like are. Well, they don't wear all white. That's true. Yeah. So and they're white. I know, but people convert. Yeah, people convert.

2:13:06That to me looks pretty distinctly different. That to me looks like when I went to Colorado City, Arizona to Warren Jeff's fundamentalist compound. You know, I went there three times and drove around that thing. And it's immediately wrong. The women are dressed as like pioneer people. The rate of kids that have genetic issues is so unignorable. Yeah. It is like a movie. Yeah. And it's not my place to go into their community per se. But yeah, for me, if women are being subjugated, yeah, I'm like, it's on. And I think if you're walking around with one dude and he's got four women covered head to toe and they're not Muslim, I'm not cool with that.

2:14:02I'd have to hear the scenario where everything was honky dory there. Right. I've yet to hear the scenario where that was like a good thing. This harkens back to our last fact check, which is like you have an idea of what's right and wrong for you. But we can't really put our right and wrongs on other people unless someone's being hurt. That's right. Which she was. That's right. But Hezebub wouldn't say she was being hurt. She wouldn't say she was being hurt. But she was being hurt. By our standards. So this is where things get very slippery. Well, they get into autonomy and liberty. Yeah. You have the liberty to be subjugated if you choose, which is interesting.

2:14:46Like, yeah. But I mean, yeah, if you can tell this as a kid. But at the same time, to pretend we can't delineate the difference between these things, I think is also a lie. Like, I think when men are abusing people, I don't think that's terribly subjective. I don't think clitorectomies are subjective. I don't either, but I think you would say in anthropology and areas like that is a part of their culture and you can't really have a judgment on that. And this was my pretty big issue by the end of my anthro degree is I was like, I think it serves an incredible, an imperative tool to walk in without any goal of judging so that you can actually learn and understand.

2:15:32But we have learned and understood now what the clitorectomy is about. Yeah. And that is to deny women pleasure so they don't cheat on their husbands. Yeah, it's horrifying. And you can suck a dick. I have no, you know, I can't, I'm not a moral relativist when it comes to hurting little girls. Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I guess it's like at what point? It's like once they turn 18, once it's like, you know, again, there's some blurry, weird, it's hard. It is. Obviously, yes. I mean, I think that children have to be protected to the fullest extent. But I don't know if you saw that, if you're just like, that's, I don't know.

2:16:14It's so crazy. It's so horrible. I can't believe she was just walking around and people were walking around. She was stuck like that and so scared to like, it's horrible. I think a trick I could get into is when I look back at myself at these different ages, I think I'm older than I was. And I think that's pretty common for people. You're kind of using your modern mind to think about what you were. But because I have a 12-year-old, it is just crystal clear to me what that experience would be like for her. And it's so gruesome. It's just terrible. It's so terrible. Yeah. But she's amazing. No, the fact that Elizabeth is functioning and walking around and not only functioning, but thriving and as a family is productive is like so one in a million for this scenario.

2:17:08It's so aspirational and admirable. And yeah. Okay. A couple of facts. Also, you asked me, you were like, was that part of why you were so scared of kidnapping? Yeah. But when I was thinking about the timeline, no, because she's my age and that I was in. You were done with that by 14? Yeah, or I was still scared, but it had started when I was five or something. But you know what's also really upsetting is like when I was first scared of kidnapping and it was in my prayer and stuff, robbers and kidnappers, I like poly class that she was one of the first ones that was kidnapped. I was young for that.

2:17:51I don't recognize that name. Oh, it happened in San Francisco and she was kidnapped and it was, I think like a birthday party or something. Yeah. Horrible. A slumber party at 12. Yeah. My mom like was like obsessed with the poly class thing. So she was a little infected too with the fear. Yeah. She was scared and then it, you know, came trickle down effect. Sure. Trickle down economics to me. It works. And then we were in San Francisco for my mom's work and like there were signs for her. up. Oh, boy. But I was so, you know, you do forget to your point when you're like, you think you're older. I didn't know about rape.

2:18:33Looking back, I can only assume that I just, like, they just take you and keep you and you're their kid now. Right. Maybe they spank you a lot or something. Yeah. But I had no idea what it really meant. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The kidnappings It's really just... The beginning. Yeah. Ugh. Okay. Now, okay. Kidnapping statistics, 2002 versus now. There are many factors, stats involved in this that it's hard to find a simple answer, but from AI. Kidnapping statistics, particularly for children, show that while public perception in 2002 was heightened due to high-profile cases, the actual number of abductions by strangers has remained relatively low and stable or even decreased over the past two decades.

2:19:18I think social media and smartphones has to have an impact on the decline. I don't think you could get away with it for as long. That's what I said after she left. I was like, I don't think that could happen today in the same way. In the same way. Okay, so total missing children reports in 2002, around 725 ,000 children were reported missing annually to law enforcement. And then in recent years, approximately 2024, missing person files for all ages in the U.S. in 2024, although this is still under the children thing. And also missing persons, like your kid didn't come home from a night out and you report it.

2:20:05It says there's over 533 ,000. The FBI reported a 40 % drop in total missing children cases between 97 and 2014. Okay. Also, could you type in what percentage of kidnappings are from a relative or known person, friend? A significant majority of child kidnappings involve family or acquaintances, not strangers, with older data from the Department of Justice showing 49 % by family members, 27 % by acquaintances, and 24 % by strangers. That's actually higher than I thought. It is higher than I would have thought, too. So almost a quarter. Yeah. I bit my lip yesterday really, really bad. And so now it's like so huge.

2:20:52And I'm talking funny. You're upper or you're lower? Lower. Interesting, because I was looking at your upper lip, and I was like, did you get a little injection? Oh, no, I didn't either. Oh, wow, congratulations. That's the goal. Like, I saw in a comment, some woman wrote, you have to stop wearing eyeliner. You? Yeah, and I wrote, I don't wear eyeliner, but thank you for the compliment. Exactly, exactly. Okay, you said alarm systems work in doorways, windows using magnets. Yeah, when the contact of the magnet breaks, it sets off the alarm. That is correct. Well, those are the facts. Those are the facts, Jax.

2:21:24Well, that was an incredible episode. I'm so grateful she came here. Me too. And, oh, my God. She's just able to talk about it and help people. Like, it's so helpful. And, you know, we have a handful of people like that, like Amanda Knox and even, like, Monica Lewinsky, who just, like, decide to put their own trauma kind of aside in order to help other people. And it's, like. It's not easy. No. And it's like, we have to just be so grateful for it. Yeah. All right. Love you. Happy thousandth. Happy thousandth. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.