James L. Brooks (director and producer)

24:27If you watch the thing, it's a body slam where he's upside down. and a guy holding him goes like that so that you're wincing. But when you really slow it down, you see that it was set up. You see that he stopped just short of the slam and they made the noise. Yeah. But yeah, are you on set? Like, who's going to show up today? Yeah, sort of. And Tony showed up with two prostitutes one day. Sure, yeah. That adds up. Wow. Did you shoot that here or in New York? We shoot it here. My partner, Ed Weinberger, who Andy had told this was going to happen, and he said, Ed, I need you to really punish me, but punish Tony when he comes in.

25:08And he comes in with the two prostitutes. Ed goes crazy, calls the security guards who are not in on it. The security guards, like almost in a cartoon, drag them and throw them out of the gate. Where he calls Ed and said, thanks, that was one of the greatest. And what I just love is it's for nobody but him. Yeah. What purity. Did you feel like you got to know Andy? Were there moments of sincerity? No, it was sort of great because you'd go over and give him a note and he'd do it exactly. But as you gave it to him, he'd be like Andy wondering who you were and stuff like that. But then he did the notes solidly.

25:43Because he stayed in Latka? Yeah. He did amazing work on the show. Oh, yeah. I mean, like crazy. If you're a kid and you don't know about Andy Kaufman, you're watching that guy. You think that guy's real. He's a very good character. Foreign man, yeah. How exciting that you cast him. He came from a country that he invented a language. You know, he talked a foreign language. He used vaguely Eastern Europeanish. Language on the show. And so that we can make up the customs of this mythical country. Yeah. And got episodes out of it. Wow, what a gift. Okay, and then Christopher Lloyd. Was he a known commodity?

26:16He and Danny had both been in Cuckoo's Nest. Oh, right. As part of that group. The most memorable scene of all the taxi episodes that made me laugh the hardest is Jim, Christopher Lloyd's character, is having to pass the driver's license exam. It's the record-setting laugh. I don't know if we can render it, but basically you have to know the character who was burnt out from drugs. That was basically it. He's the dumbest guy imaginable. He shouldn't be driving a cab. Everything's missing, but with everything missing, he has sort of a blissful humanity and insight. Kind of a Chauncey Gardner. Yes, and he's a cam driver, and they find out he doesn't have a driver's license.

26:55So he has to take them to help him cheat. He can't, and the whole company comes and pretends they're filling out forms while he's in the desk taking the test. He says, what does a flashing yellow light mean? They coach him, and they say, slow down. He says, what does? Oh, shit. What does? This is the permutations. We went eight times, ten times. Each time, the laugh bigger than the time before. Because as you can imagine, he's going slower and slower. The last one is like, what? The last one, and the audience, it's gone like this, and the editor says, cut. And I went crazy because it was just, when are they going to stop increasing their laughter?

27:38Let's find out. Let's blow it up. Yeah, I can get upset now. Yeah, exactly. I am a little upset. Yeah, what a thing to witness. To witness the greatest laugh in life. audience ever. Oh, you must go watch it. Everyone should take five minutes and watch that. It's so delightful. And then I'll throw Tony Danza in there too. When he walks in, he's so Tony Danza. Are you immediately like, oh, this is ideal. I don't think he'd ever acted and he was a fighter and I went to see him fight. No kidding. There was a very rough sort of boxing world guy and he says, can't win, but he has a great punch. If he lands, he knocks you out.

28:17He was a middleweight. How was he even in contention to act in this thing if he hadn't act and he was boxing? I really believe we were looking for a boxer because everybody had a dream in the cab company and his was. I don't know if anyone's looked better in a wife beater than our friend Tony Danza. Boy, can you wear that tank top? Okay, now, you've had all this crazy success in television up to Taxi. What is the pull to movies? is it a more expansive creative space or is it ego or is it both? I can truly say it's not ego. But for people that were not born in the 90s and have watched television have as much cachet as films, people need to understand that back then film and television.

28:59At the time I got there, if you were in television, you were unhirable in film. Right. There was a wall up. They were contemptuous of us from TV. It's so crazy how radically that has changed. Yeah. I mean, you can't make an inch without somebody offering your movie. It's almost impossible for you to conceive. Absolute wall. Get out of here if you're from television. And I think Ron Howard was the first one over the fence. And then I got there. So the first movie starting over, Candace Bergen and Jill Klaber both get nominated for Academy Awards. I didn't direct that. You just wrote it. Yeah. Not just.

29:35So you really had nothing to do with that. Okay, so you write that one, and that gets you into the film world, and the film is successful and critically adored. This kind of shocks me. The next movie, Terms of Endearment. Iconic. Again, what an insane cast. This shocks me. It took you four years to get financing for this movie? Did you have the cast already? No. It was a book you adapted, yeah? Yeah. What sang to you about that? Why was that like, oh, I'll spend four years trying to get this made? When I read the book, it was the second time in my life that I cried when I got to the ending. Wow.

30:11I've since improved on that. Kids will do that to you. The second time in my life, I cried. You're not going to walk away. I had to do it. And it was a very tricky road because there was a movie star of decades earlier who had the rights and wanted to play the Shirley MacLaine part. She was wrong for the part that she wanted to do. That was tricky, her hurdle. Well, it was just being patient. I had the most amazing time because it was actresses in their 50s. It was the part that comes along when all that shit is happening about age and all that. Yeah. So I just had this time of sitting down with great women who had done great work.

30:52Yeah. Almost all of them at that time. And I hadn't come to Shirley yet for some reason. And she had a super agent. I don't remember the name. She was the reigning agent at the time, Sue Mengers. She called me and she said, you know, Pots, you haven't seen Shirley yet. When are you coming? And then I went to see her and that was it. How did you get Nicholson? Deborah Winger got me Nicholson. She did? Yeah, because I couldn't get a script to him, you know. Right. I mean, DeVito's a shoo-in, right? You're going to get DeVito. He's got to pick up the phone and be in this. That makes sense. But Nicholson, she got him in.

31:24And what was your working relationship with him? Actor of his time. The talent was so great. But that kind of talent with all the charisma in the world, what are you kidding me? And, you know, we did a picture as good as it gets where if he didn't do it, nobody could do it because he had permission from people to play this wretched core character as the star of a movie. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I wouldn't have made it. It was the only one you could get away with it. Yeah. He's the only one that could have pulled that off. Yeah. Yeah. And he's everything. Was it easy for you to give him notes or was it intimidating?

31:56You go legally insane when you direct, I think. Yeah. You're in such a bubble. That's it. You don't know the difference between right and wrong anymore. You're obsessed with one flaw. Everything else slips away. Yeah. You're being paid to be obsessed. Past reason. Wake up, think of nothing else till you go to bed for months. Yeah. So it wasn't hard for you? No. You lose yourself in it. You go away and you're trying to serve the thing. I mean, you have to get out of your own way. Now, I've never met him. I haven't worked with him. But I have a hunch if he wanted, he could charm you out of anything you wanted.

32:27I guess is my hunch. because he's so charismatic. I'm fumpering because you can't convey it. But he'd come up to me and say, you want to know the worst direction you gave today? And then he'd also say, you want to know the best direction you gave today? Yeah. He worked. We worked. You know, it wasn't like, is he okay today? He did the work. This is just to geek out for one second on Jack Nicholson. One of my favorite things is The Departed, simply because we've got every single one of the actors. Like, let's bring them all in and let's put them in a wide shot and let's just see who you stare at.

33:02And I just kept thinking the whole movie, oh yeah, man, there could be two bears fighting and if Nicholson's in frame, I'm just on them. That's just a once in a lifetime kind of impossible charisma. Historically fantastic. What a dude. Okay, so that movie is just wildly successful. I'm wondering how you took that in. You win best adapted screenplay. You win best picture. You win best director. or Nicholson wins best supporting. You sweep the Oscars. A, had you written multiple speeches in anticipation of going up over and over again? Or what was the experience like on the night? Were you caught with your pants down?

33:43The first one was, I think, for writing. And it was everything it should be. It was joyous. It was great. Yeah, yeah. I was good, man. I sat down. I had the Oscars there. Can I argue really quick, too? if of any of those categories that you might have felt worthy of, it'd be the writing. You've been writing forever. It's not going to queue up any imposter syndrome, but perhaps some of the others could not be as embraced so easily. You're absolutely right. So what's going on when you go up the second time? Yeah, keep getting more. You win for directing. The actors got you there. I don't think there's any question about that.

34:16The third one, just my mind was blown. So I was just sort of staggering. And Deborah did this amazing thing because she was great in the film. and everybody else is winning these Oscars. We're all posing for pictures afterwards. And Deborah, we're holding ours. She holds an imaginary Oscar. So she was great, yeah. Well, I happen to know, I've read some of your feedback afterwards and you framed it as like, it adds a heightened self-consciousness. That's really something you have to contend with. So there's that. And I want to hear your opinion on that. But then I'm curious just with your childhood, because I have this, did you also have this enormous sense of the other shoe must drop soon?

34:55This is all too good. Did you have that suspicion that it's just all too good? I mean, I think the great thing is you get to make your next picture. It's currencies. Yes. So that was really what I thought. I get to make another movie. And it goes without saying, you loved making Terms of Endearment, I'm imagining. Loved is not the word I do, but I guess it's true. You wanted to do it again. Minimally, yeah. I'd like to do it again. Yes. Whatever we can infer from that. Then the next movie's broadcast news. Again, what a fucking sensational movie. And your taste is so good. Holly Hunter for me is like, my God.

35:29It was such an accident that I got her. I got her at the last minute. I still pay homage to the casting director. She had put up with me for six months that I couldn't find anybody. And we auditioned people. And I had somebody that I didn't feel great about. But that was what I was going to have to go with. And she says this, this girl is leaving town today, but you can see her. And it was Holly Hunter. And it was just God. Dropped her in your lap. Yeah. Oh, and she's just going toe-to-toe with William Hurt, and it is riveting. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. This is your first time working with Albert Brooks?

36:00Yes. And this then starts the confusion, obviously. You've experienced this, right? People insist you must be related to this man. Your last name is Brooks, and his last name is Brooks. Does it start then? He's an Einstein Brooks. What does that mean, an Einstein? His father's real name was Einstein. Oh. And they called him Albert, and he did not want to be Albert Einstein. Right, okay. Oh, wow. And your dad changed the name to Brooks to appear to be Irish. He changed from Bernstein. He was the last man trying to pass the change of his being Jewish. And he chose Irish. Interesting. Yes, yes. I was 12 years old.

36:33I thought I was Irish. Oh, no kidding. Younger than that. I was nine. And then suddenly I saw my paternal grandfather's name was Bernstein. And I slowly managed to put two and two together. Was he celebrating St. Patrick's Day with extra flourish? I think most nights of week he was celebrating. So then you're nominated for that film again for Best Picture and Screenplay, which is incredible. And now I want this to be how it is. It makes a good story. Maybe it's not true, but you had left television for all intents and purposes. And you get kind of drug back into television that year of broadcast news, presumably to help a friend, Tracy Ullman.

37:16Not dragged back. Somebody gave me a tape of who she was, and I'd never seen anybody, an absolutely original talent. I dove back in. I love television. Nobody has to talk me into it. That's fair. Yeah. I guess what I want and what I like from this is you were already busy doing this thing, but you saw this way that you could help with someone that was really talented. Not help. No. No. Okay. Okay. Work with. Exploit. Okay. Exploit. Okay, great. That's not a great story. You were rewarded regardless. because if people who don't remember this whole trajectory, I do. I love the Tracy Allman show.

37:54I was 12 years old when this show came out. On a network that nobody watched at the time. Which was what? Fox. All you had was married with children, and this must have followed it, because I saw it at some point, maybe it launched off of that. At any rate, I saw it, and I was already a huge fan starting it live, and I'm like, oh, this is wonderful. This is kind of like you're just with one character evolving. And then they would show these little kind of interstitial cartoons. And there was this character, Bart Simpson. And then this becomes the Simpson. Crudely drawn. Matt Groening, having drawn him while waiting to see me, he had a comic strip, Life in Hell.

38:30In Life in Hell, he did the 12 ways to die in Hollywood. And it was road rage and being shot and failure and then success. That's right. I love that. So it was amazing. That's how we met off that. Do you have the original Bart? I think I do. That's worth some money. When this becomes its own show, The Simpsons, I guess two years after Tracy Allman launches, you have some interesting provision in your contract with Fox where you kind of, I don't know what the verbiage is. Mileage? Mileage. Well, now it has mileage. Then you had some kind of creative control that was unique. Yeah. It opened up a lot of episodes that otherwise wouldn't have happened.

39:12That's true. And it was a young network, and so I don't think he would have gotten it out of one that was established. Okay, so we are at the 36-year marker. This is the 36th year of The Simpsons. It's won two Peabody's, 37 Emmys. Gosh. I'm going to ask you a very tacky question you're going to hate, but I have to know. Maybe you don't have to. Yeah. You don't have to answer, but I have to ask you. I mean, you're a free man. No, I want to know because I'm such a nosy pig. is there a running tally of what this thing has generated over the last 36 years like can you look and see the exact amount of money this thing has generated no thank heavens it has to be the most successful though hollywood property of all time it's the longest running scripted show in history said he i mean the movie alone made 500 million dollars yeah i mean we're in the many many many many billions i just think it doesn't matter it was five and a quarter that doesn't mean a thing you earn a short 25 million i'm gonna ask chat gbt if they can tell me what the total in billions is i love that i think it's so rad when art can create what an automaker i just think that's fucking cool the great thing is the energy on the show matt graining and i are always around but there's always a show running it that's defining it and now it's matt selman the amazing thing is the energy the freshness particularly right now is just filled with energy and change.

40:42That's the impossible accomplishment. And you share it probably only with Saturday Night Live, which is to keep it fresh and on fire for that long. What a rare thing. It's great because nobody second guesses you at this point. It's just a great atmosphere. And that thing about community again. That's really excellent. Yeah, that is. All about the writers, yeah. Okay, you have your first setback with I'll do anything. I mean, you're in such a meteoric rise between TV and film. Yeah, here it is. How did you take that? Ow. Yeah. Ow, right? It's hard. Ow for about a year, yeah. Well, it just didn't make what it needed to make.

41:18I did it as a musical. I didn't think anybody had to be real singers. And actually, at the core, there are things that I still am so glad got expressed. Because there's a father-daughter relationship in there. Yeah, that's adorable and works. That really mattered to me. And there was a six-year-old girl who just gave an extraordinary performance. like crazy, unallowed to happen, like against the laws of physics. You know, it was a big failure. And it was worse than that because we previewed and we had a preview where there were walkouts. Oh, what an experience that is, isn't it? I went from that, I apologized to everybody I'd worked with to lead them into that.

41:55The Los Angeles Times found out about the preview and started to do a series of things. So it just became, you're spending a few months of your life blushing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, it's a unique experience. Oh, I'm telling you, I've got a weird feeling. It's my legs now. Can we talk about my new movie? I've gone through it. And there's this sense when you're walking around that every human you see knows you've failed. I have had that at least. Which is probably not true. It's not true at all. But you feel like every— No, it's a little true.

42:30No. One thing I just want to thank you for, because it goes in my top three comedies of all time, which is in 1996, somehow you become involved with Bottle Rocket with Wes and Owen. Just the best. So great that you bring that up. That's the fucking movie. How on earth, you must have seen their short they made. I saw the short that got honorable mention someplace. And I went to see them because I loved it. I went to see them in Texas. Flew to Dallas. They had a script, and the three guys turned out to be the cast and the writer and the director. We're all living on the same floor. But I mean the floor of one apartment with just refuse every place.

43:08You couldn't walk a straight line in one step without, you know. It was Owen. I'm trying to remember who the third person was. Maybe Luke? I think that's right. And I said, have you ever read it out loud? They hadn't. Oh, wow. Three and a half hour later, I mean, it was the longest damn script in the world. and I said, it's all going to be about length. And I remember Wes looking at me and he weighed like 80 pounds. He lived in his car. Flash forward, I'm in Paris and this gorgeous guy who owns the world in a white suit. This is a few years ago. Yeah, yeah. No, his life is an art installation now.

43:43Oh my God. He has a unique career. He was living in his car and like say three and a half hours, he said, are you going to make the movie? And I said, I don't know, man. Not at three and a half hours. I said, why don't you come? And then I think it was six months of work that went in. Wow. Yeah. And then they went away and made it. Yeah. Owen is on record as saying, I think you felt bad for us when you came to the apartment. Yeah, sounds like it. And then the reading was the worst reading ever. Sleeping bags on the floor and stuff. I think you felt bad for us. That's so cool that you got to be a part of the beginning of all of them because they all turned out to be so amazing.

44:20Yeah, it's great. It's great. Yeah, you've gotten to do that a bunch of times. Yeah. That must be one of the more rewarding aspects of all this. Like the people you cast on Taxi, the meeting Owen and Wes, all that stuff. That's great. Because you can only be so happy with your own accomplishments. But when you help other people accomplish stuff, it really feels good, no? It's not about that. It's when the work is good, you feel good. And then things happen. But I think the cart and horse is very clear to me. I think you're too humble to say you've helped people. Yeah, that might be the case. No, but it's not true.

44:50Listen, he launched a bunch of careers and Simpsons is worth$150 billion. I was an active part. Everybody came through for everybody. Yeah, I know. What you're saying is correct. Okay, the last one I want to talk about, and then Elle McKay. As good as it gets, of course. Obviously, just a brilliant fucking movie. Seven Academy Award nominations. Incredible performances. But I have specific questions. One is Trudeau the dog, the Brussels Griffon. Were you a fan of Brussels, or was this a happy accident? I've never heard a breed pronounced better than you just did. That was the Griffon. I happen to fall in love with an ex-girlfriend's Brussels.

45:25Yeah. How did Trudeau come to be a character? Somebody had written a script that was not a comedy, but it had the characters, a lot of the story. And then I started working on it, and I feel that it was two people who were partners in screenwriting, but they worked a year apart and separately the way it worked. And it never could have happened without him, and then it was right to change form into a comedy. So the dog wasn't his. And then you got to cast the dog, and it's going to be an important part. Figuring out how to piss on cue, which we ended up. The prop guy took care of that. The way it has to be is that you don't treat the dog as an afterthought, the dog and his trainer, that you give them what you give to every actor.

46:09That was very important to give them the time, to give them the stage, to give them the respect. What would you say was the thing that was working on that movie that you isolated and figured out and kind of doubled down on? You know how you have these moments where you're like, oh, this is the thing that's really working. The hardest part to cast was Greg Kinnear in that. That took months and months. Two auditions that some people resent and some people really like because instead of an audition, I get involved, I make it a work session, we go over it again. And some actors resent it and some actors really appreciate it.

46:40It's the right way to work or else it's sort of bullshit. Let's try working together, you know? Yes. Because the odds that they're going to come in and do it exactly as you want it and then they're going to replicate that exact thing on the day are very slim. No, but you're just seeing the mesh. And I mean, you lose yourself. So you're not sitting there saying, show me. You're trying to figure it out with them. Yes. He was the toughest. A colleague told me about him and I went to see him because that was impossible. I've never read so many actors for a part. Really? Yes. What were the essential ingredients?

47:05You don't know. That's why you can't, you know, you don't know. You want vulnerability, but you don't want pathetic. It's a thin. Yeah. It's just an aura. Well, what a fucking movie. Okay. How does Elma Kate come about? And the fact that Emma McKee is the star is very fucking confusing. and is that accidental or intentional? Did you write it with her in mind? I wrote Emma McKay and then when it was her, I just didn't want to change Emma McKay's name. Oh, he doesn't love it. Oh, that's great. I just lived with it for so long like that. What was it called before she was in it? Emma McKay. Oh, okay.

47:39It was always called that. And then Emma Mackie comes along after I spent, again, it was one of those stories like the Greg Kinnear story. Went overseas, went to London. The hope that when you try and write this female character and catch something. And it's like, if you build it, will she come? Yeah. And this was a real process. Miraculously, she showed up. And this is her first American starring role. She had one word in Barbie, but made an impact. Oh, wow. She's in Sex Education. Yes. And the Katherine Hepburn, Audrey Hepburn movies of the 50s, I adored. And this was me just tribute, whatever it is.

48:16But that spirit, that scruple comedy, and then how do you do scruple comedy and clock the laughs and put meat on the bone so that you're really dealing with some of the crap that we go through and that can do us in if we're not careful. Yes. And try and combine those two things, which is what the picture is. Because you're not telling the truth unless you show that part of life is a little tough. And I love screwball comedy. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

48:53So, yeah, the movie starts out and we meet Ella and we find out that at 16, her father, Woody Harrelson. Your access to cast is a little enviable to the cast of this movie. Woody's an old friend, too. We go back to before he did anything. Oh, you do? He's being fired because he has slept with several coworkers. And is being confronted by a 16-year-old daughter. Yes, the rest of the family or the mother in particular seems to be going along with this quietly. And she's not having that. She's like, let's be honest about why you've been let go. First line is wait because everybody's packing up, moving on, pretending it doesn't happen.

49:31We're going to acknowledge the reality of this. So not only is the father had many, many extramarital affairs and the family's in flux because of it. And as he points out, all three women sent letters of support. Yes, yes. He said that's one valid perspective. So he has to now take a job in another state. And she's in her junior year of high school. And so she decides to stay with her aunt, who is Jamie Lee Curtis. Yes, and it's a little messier than that because her mother, who still loves him despite all, knows that her daughter and him will never get along and will always be that kind of chaos.

50:07And still loves the guy. So sort of urges so that Emma's character is abandoned And made to feel abandoning almost It's weird And you feel very much the mom's shame Yes At sticking with the dad She knows the daughter is in great judgment Correct, and she'll do it again Yeah, I get it Which is heartbreaking Because she's already taken it on the chin from the husband And now the daughter's disappointed in her And then while they're gone, the mom dies unexpectedly So I'm just going to throw out there from what we've learned about you. There's a lot of stuff here that sounds vaguely familiar to your childhood.

50:43We've got a questionable father in the mix, and we've got a mom who dies prematurely. Are you aware of that when you're writing it? I called him Eddie, my father's name. Okay, so yes. So you're aware. I'm blushing now. So many Hollywood pictures end with forgiveness being the answer. And if forgiveness is always the answer, forgiveness is meaningless. Something has to be unforgivable. There's got to be an unforgivable forgiveness to mean anything. Oh, that's a good point. And it's really the question. It needs to be relative to something. Yeah. And I'm sort of reactionary to every movie ending with forgive you, and that's the answer in life.

51:16Yeah. Especially since I don't know that I forgive. My father did unforgivable things. Yeah. Unforgivable has to exist. Yeah, yeah, right, right, right. But there to be forgivable. It's also interesting. We could get very philosophical here. It's like there is some risk of healing all things from the childhood because they are the fodder for creativity. Like if you had had some really dreamy, peaceful resolution with your father in the past, this movie doesn't exist. Absolutely. And I had ants that were very giving to me. And there's an ant in this picture played by Jamie Lee. And Jamie Lee, her humanity to just be around.

51:51And I think she kicks it out of the park. Yeah. In some weird way, she's the emotional hub of the movie. She's the most dependable source for Ella to check in, get a reality check. Two women who've been through everything together who love the ass off each other. And as Ella then is kind of a wunderkind herself, she finds herself as the deputy governor or whatever that role's called. Lieutenant governor, yeah. Lieutenant governor under, again, ding, ding, ding, Albert Brooks, no relation to you. Because you're Irish and he's Jewish. Easy mistake. He's the governor. He steps down with 18 months left of his term to go join the cabinet in the White House.

52:30So now she finds herself as a 29-year-old governor. 34. Her real age was that. Oh, okay. Sorry, sorry. But still she's checking in with her aunt regularly. Whether there's a scandal brewing about her. Her aunt who raised her, yeah. She's kind of her reality check. I think it was true in my family that the significant love in a woman's life can be another woman family member. That's the key to our journey. But the choice is also armor. That's sort of the great thing. It's the great thing about the gender. So the dad resurfaces, and he's just a love and sex addict. That's very obvious. And he now has a new girlfriend.

53:09The new girlfriend's urging him to make amends, but it's not really an amends. Until you get things right with your kids, I'm not going to be your woman. Yes. I guess my question is, since there's so much similarity, why do a female protagonist and not a male protagonist? Like it's almost your story, but you chose to tell it through the lens of a female protagonist. Wow, that never occurred to me. I did it wrong. No, I think there's something really quite interesting there that you're kind of telling your story, but you would rather have a woman portray your role in some sense. I have never thought about it that way.

53:48I plan to have this surgically removed from my head after I leave. Maybe it was a protective thing. Like if it's exactly you, that's a little harder to write and to sit with. So maybe there's like a little bit of a distance when you're writing for a female character. Yeah, that. God bless you. I'll make another argument, which is your story in 1958, when you turn 18, having had really no dad present and a mother that was working nonstop. You were starting with a real deficit that I don't think we could extend to any man in 2025 as a male lead. I don't know that it would represent really what you were starting out with, how much the odds were stacked against you in your own personal story in 1968.

54:33That would ring untrue today. And I think there were parts that were consciously based on times of my life. And I think there must be stuff that was unconsciously based on that, too. Having done the Mary Tyler Moore show and having explored this topic now for 55 years, how is Ella different and similar? The topics change. Women change. That's always the question. It's always what makes a contemporary female a heroine. And this is a no-nonsense. She's a public servant we pray for. She's just really genuine. You know, principled and has integrity. She gets accidentally loaded for the first time in her life in the movie.

55:12And it's weed, not like you've seen weed before. Weed where you love weed. Weed where, oh, this is the real me. I got to remember what I'm saying. Oh, God, this is it. This is it. And what comes out of her is I can make people's lives better. That's her dirty secret. You know, then she doesn't even get out of her mouth until she does that monologue. Great. I think she kills the monologue. And then there's obviously the reoccurring issue that women still deal with, which is like she kind of inadvertently does end up marrying kind of a version of her dad. That's what everybody says. Unintended, but everybody says that.

55:46Yeah, and maybe common consent of mankind or something. Yeah, so explain the husband that she's kind of just woken up. Hardest thing in the script, because through some versions, what is she doing with him? Right. He's based on this, that it was one of the things that a woman can consider about a guy is what impact he'll have on her life, sort of in a traditional sense. He's a successful guy. It's attractive. that this man is going to take me places I never heard of. This is the reverse. Right. She's that. He noticed it in high school. And I don't know if it's bad to fall in love with that, but you're going places and you don't even know it.

56:23You're going on a journey and I'd be stuck here. I love you. Yeah. Persistence, persistence, persistence. Interesting. So yeah, he is enamored with the obviousness that she is going to be going places. He's ambitious, but she's not in the wrong way. He likes that she's governor. He likes the accoutrements and stuff like that. He wants to be on TV with her. He wants the title. Yeah, yeah. Like he's using her. Even if he doesn't know, he is. What's been sort of a thing traditionally, my way out. Oh, this guy takes me to a whole new place. Prince Charming takes me to a new life. Yes, if it's reversed, we don't say she's using him.

56:59I guess is the thing. The trope you've seen a million times in movies is like the wife of a man, and she's quite ambitious and helps him achieve his goals. but it's really unique and interesting and a bit icky when you see the reverse of it. Right, like, why should it be? Why should it be? But it's, I don't like it. That is a very contemporary woman right now. There's a lot of that going on right now that's hard. They write their marriage vows, and his is, except for you and me, baby, everything's a joke. And that's an outlook, you know? Yeah. Well, it's delightful. I love Kumail, too. Kumail Nanjiani is one of my all-time favorites.

57:35Yeah, the big six. It's like the good guys cast. It's like everyone that's in it is sincerely a good guy. Oh, I have one more question. Yeah. When's the first time you cried? You told us the second time. My mother's death. I guess we could have assumed that. I made an ass of you and me. You did. Yeah, he said second. I was like, okay, I'm guessing 22 was the first time. And how much time in between was those two? A long time. I can tell you. A long time. I have it. 83, 22, 66 to 83. So that's a big gap. I think I had about a similar gap. I cheer up easily now. You have a bunch of girls, right?

58:16I have two daughters and two sons. Do you cry as much for the sons or the girls? I have two girls. I just know I cry nonstop. And I'm assuming it's half-lick because they're girls. My last cry was with my granddaughter on the phone. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because something wonderful had happened to her and she didn't see it coming. it. It was a happy cry. Yeah, yeah. My kids are embarrassed for me, I think. I mean, I'm just letting it rip all the time. Wow. Yeah, men don't bring Kleenex with them. No, I never see it coming, but boy, it's getting more and more regular. It's nice though, isn't it?

58:50It feels like you're genuine. Yeah, it feels nice. By the way, I think it was one of your podcasts where you were talking about men's groups. And I can't tell you what it brought back to me and how much I miss it when I was part of a group. In your case, it was AA, but just palpably missed it so much. Yeah. Hearing you talk about it. Yeah. I was there last night with my idol who just got 23 years. He also had a 76th birthday and I was sitting with him and I was like, oh my God, man, I have had 23 years of getting to see someone who has exactly what I want and is exactly who I want to be, and I've got to just ape them.

59:32And what an insane gift. How the hell do you find that without something like that? It resonated. Thank you. Well, man, this is a real honor, Jim, honestly. I mean, you guys are great. Thank you. I appreciate it. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, just the work's so special and lasting. You did a bang-em-up job. And you'll call me and tell me what Simpsons is worth, right? Between us and I won't tell anyone. Get me counting Alright thank you so much Pleasure Hi there this is Hermium Hermium If you like that you're gonna love the fact check With Miss Monica Anyway I want his wine His wine and his cake Maybe you would love dating him I would eat all his stuff I love that you want to fuck him That's so exciting I'm curious Let's bring everyone up to speed We're talking about Tom Cruise.

1:00:26No, I know. He's not going to come on if we do this. If he knows you want to fuck him, he'll be here in two seconds. What are you talking about? You don't understand one thing about how the world works. It's crazy. The eight years of me trying to explain to you how the world works. Oh. And you just won't pick it up. I'm just, I have some curiosity. You want to just want to fuck him. I want to know what he's like. What it feels like to fuck him? Get into it. Let's hear what this is about. I'm like, what are you like in an intimate relationship? setting because you're so, he's so intense and everything has to be so, um, regimented.

1:01:03Yeah. There's probably no room for improv unless that's the space that he improvised. So that's my curiosity. Yes. That's what I'm saying is like, he is a perfectionist at all things. He just delivers and there's no reason to think he wouldn't just blow your mind in the sack. Also, if you watch those early Tom Cruise movies, he is so playful with his eyes. He has total command of his charm with his eyes. Yeah, he does. If he locked into your eyes, I think he could give you a real experience. I'm just, you know. Your curiosity's peaked. My curiosity's peaked. But it's just interesting because you don't randomly, that's not what you offer randomly.

1:01:42Like we had a cute young baseball player you thought was hot and. Oh, on the screen we had him on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, we haven't had him as a guest. When I threw out the notion, you're like, he's too young. I'm like, yeah, but just for a night, like a roll around fun picture over. Yeah, you're right. And you were like, no. And then yesterday you shocked me because you're coming out of the studio and you're talking to a guest. And you basically said, like, I would fuck Tom Cruise. And I was like, this is interesting. Do you agree that it's inconsistent? I agree, but it's not, to me, it makes total sense.

1:02:16Yeah, and I'm hoping you can convey that to me. Okay. The hot baseball player. Yeah. I'm intimidated by. Now, see, this is weird. This is going to seem. Disrespectful? Yeah. Or cocky or something. And I don't mean that to be the case. Yeah. But that hot, young baseball player. Yeah. I think I would feel like, oh my gosh. I hope I'm hot enough? Yeah, I hope I'm hot enough. Okay. And if Tom and I are rolling around. Yeah, we're all around. You think he's going to be pretty grateful for what's going on. No, because I know he has access to everyone and has dated insanely hot people. Yeah. But for some reason.

1:03:06Part of it sees older? Maybe. You know us older people would be grateful for anything, right? Is that part of what's going on? I hate to say it might have to do with age, but I think it does. That's fair, yeah. And guess what? You're kind of right. I heard this said to me a long, long time ago, and it didn't make sense because I was younger at the time, But I did a movie, a student movie 24 years ago in Mentor, Ohio. And one of the cast members was a much older dude who had been a lawyer and quit being a lawyer to do stand-up. And I was in this movie. I loved him. He was so interesting and funny.

1:03:38Yeah. But he was, again, he was older. He was at least 10 years older than me. And I remember him saying, like, there's no unattractive girls in their 20s. Like, I knew when I was in my 20s who was hot and who's not. Right. And they're all just very attractive to me now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I heard that and I was like, man, I don't buy that. Like you can still clearly see. And then now that I'm older, I'm like, yeah, everyone just is attractive. Like youthfulness is attractive. Youthfulness, yeah. And you don't, you're not like picking apart these. Yeah. When everyone was youthful in your pool.

1:04:13I know. You got a little spoiled and you'd find pick about eyebrows or this or that. And that's not what you think at 50. Right. And I am not in my 20s, but I still feel confident in my body that it looks youthful. He would be very happy. I think he would be happy to see it. Yeah, I'm sure he would. Now. What if you laid on your back? Okay. Legs spread. Okay. And he dropped down like Mission Impossible and entered you. Wouldn't that be so exciting? Oh, my God. And then he went way up. And he's like 12 feet in the air. So he's on like a harness? Yeah, but he's got total control of it. So when he drops, he can land right in you.

1:04:56You're like, whoa! And then you want more because he's gone for a while. You're like, Tom, you're up there way too long. Oh, my God. This is the kind of fear. That's so embarrassing. He puts pads, like stunt pads, all around the room before you guys get started. Monica, you play here. You cannot leave this area or you'll get hurt. Yeah. I'm going to be doing all this stuff with the pyrotechnics and the swords. You just lay there. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm having a realization. What? So I am attracted, and I have always been attracted to older men. Okay. Older than me, like at whatever stage I'm at, a fair amount older than me.

1:05:37Yes. And now I'm wondering if it is because that's a self-protection. I would have never suggested it, but I do think that. In the same way, I have my suspicions, and no one likes this. This is too taboo to say. Okay, what? I have my suspicions about guys who date only one specific thing. Like, I only date Asian girls. Or they date really young girls. Yeah, this just came up on. I think they have some sexual insecurities that they think either a young person won't know the difference of, or they're playing on some dumb stereotype. People do have types. Yeah. And is it okay and why? Why do they have types?

1:06:22But you often say it's okay to have types. I do think it's okay to have types if it's not covering up an insecurity of yours. But how do we... But I guess who cares if it's covering up an insecurity? Yeah, like what's the difference? Everything's related to our fears and insecurities and our strengths. Well, I think if you are, what I would say, kind of using someone to deal with your insecurities. I just think that's not fair. I think you should deal with your insecurities. Yeah. And that someone shouldn't be the unwitting participant in this weird thing that something deeper is going on that we're not acknowledging.

1:07:01Right, but isn't that everyone? I don't think so. I mean, I see a difference between using someone. It's not using on purpose, though. It's subconscious. So to me, it's the same. What if they're conscious? Well, that's bad. Yeah. Like I only want to be with a virgin because I'm so terrible. But like that, I don't like that. That's bad. Yeah, that's gross. That's not good. No, I agree. But if it's just a subconscious attraction. Yeah. It's not like I'm picking this because of this. It's like, oh, I'm attracted to that. Yeah. And then you dig deep and like, oh, I'm attracted to that because of this.

1:07:37But that's who you're attracted to. Yeah. Is that bad? Well, that's interesting. That then bleeds into a more complex scenario, which is like, what if these dudes who really desire subservient women? Like, you can make the argument, okay, well, there are subservient women, and that's what they've chosen as their role. And there's a guy who wants that, and they're together, and they're happy. Yeah, you've made that. You've said that's okay. I mean, I just, for me personally, it's terrible. For you personally, but we're talking about general. I know. Like, is it okay? And I think, I kind of think yes.

1:08:16Yeah. Like, if everyone is fine with it, with the arrangement. Yeah, yeah. I just think it's a shitty personality type. Someone who's like, I don't want to compromise or be questioned. I want to do whatever I want to do and I need a partner that'll just shut the fuck up and go along with it. Well, of course, that's disgusting to me. I just hate that personality. Yeah. Right? Of course. I mean. Yeah. Yeah, we do. So this just came up on Nobody's Listening, right? Elizabeth and Andy's show. This is funny. They just talked about this because I guess Andy was kind of saying like, what if, because I guess they're watching British Bake Off and someone maybe has alopecia on that show.

1:08:52Okay. And then Andy was like, what if you were dating someone who had alopecia and then you found out their last three girlfriends had alopecia? Is that okay? Like, is it okay to be attracted to that? Yeah, yeah. I think that's great. I think it's fine. That's great. Okay. But to me, in theory, it's like, that's fine. That's what you'll find physically attractive. When I put myself in the position of like, okay, so if I find out that my boyfriend, Tom. Yeah. No, I'm kidding. If I find out that my boyfriend's last three girlfriends, in fact, this kind of happened to me on a date. Last three girlfriends were Indian.

1:09:44Yeah. I don't like that. And so I understand in theory like, oh, that is an aesthetic you find attractive. If anything, you should feel. Don't tell me how I should feel. This is how you should feel. And you're wrong if you don't feel this way. it should quiet any voice in your head that you have. Is he really attracted to me? Like it would confirm, no, I'm exactly what he's attracted to. No, but it's like you're attracted to a thing that I happen to be. You're not attracted to me. That is not good. Okay, see, yes, and this is great because this is how these always go, which is you reduce whatever the one element that they're attracted to you about is being the total reason.

1:10:33So it's like your issue with a fan wanting, initially being interested in you because they're a fan, great, but your personality has to then take over. And yes, you may, this gentleman may love your color of brown skin and find it to be the most aesthetically pleasing. And so that opened the door. But you have to, he has to like you for you. You can't like someone for the color of their skin. That's only going to last for a few weeks. Well, for some people, that's not true. They just like a physical aesthetic and then they're like, it's their kink. But I don't, I have never been able to be with somebody simply because how they look physically.

1:11:15I know you, but we're not talking about you specifically. We're talking about people who have kinks and are like, you know, I have a Indian woman kink. And so I'm on the prowl for one. Yeah. You're one. Yeah. And I'm attracted to a lot of Indian women. But then I need to talk to them and find out, do we like the same movies and have we a sense of humor? But they might not care. And then after a while, then it's like, I'm sick of her. So I'm on to the next Indian woman. Like, that's maybe the fear. Yeah. I think that's the fear. But I just don't think I'm terribly unique. Everyone I know who's with a partner, they like the person, their personality.

1:11:52They did for a while. I guess I'm saying there are definitely people who are with people not for their personalities. Sure. But what I'm saying is there are no there's no pair of boobs that are so perfect that those pair of boobs are going to get you through a relationship. You might come for the boobs, but they're going to wear out. People can't stay with someone because they like someone's boobs. There has to be a lot more going on than just I like her boobs. I mean, I hope that's true, but I don't know if I believe that for certain men. Excluding narcissists who like you're literally just a bit of branding for their.

1:12:27Exactly. Identity. Yes. Sure. I think everyone in their life's a pawn that doesn't really. Yeah. They just validate them in whatever category in that moment they need them to. Exactly. But excluding those people, talking about people in relationships that want to call you and talk to you on the phone. Yeah. And go out to dinner with you and eat and go to movies. Yeah. They have to like you. Yeah, I hope. And I think sometimes you reduce why someone likes you to like a singular thing and then evaluate that one single thing when I think it's like hundreds of data input that make us like each other.

1:13:01Yeah, that's right. And it'd be okay if someone came for one reason and stayed for another. I know. I know. No, I like a plenty of girls have been with me, I'm sure. Because like they like tall guys. Yeah, everyone likes tall guys. Well, I don't know if that's true. Yeah, they do. I mean, people like short guys, too. But people also everyone likes tall guys. And maybe everyone likes tall guys. But for some people, they have to be with a tall guy. I've met girls that are like, I've never had a boyfriend under six, too. Like, that's what they love. They have to have that. Yeah. And so that's fine.

1:13:35You came. I got your attention because I was 6 '2". You saw me across the room and, like, I fit the thing. I know. I don't know why to me it's different. Like, that's kind of to me like saying, like, okay. I like pretty. I like pretty people. Like, it's like, that's like, duh. You know, everyone likes tall guys. Everyone likes pretty faces. Like, being Indian is not the same thing as that. It's a niche. It's very specific and it's like, I don't know. You could also. It's like a fetish. I mean, it's not always. Like, I'm not saying Indian people in relationships, that person has a fetish. It's just if you see that it's a pattern.

1:14:25That to me is strange. Well, it makes you curious. It would make me curious. Yeah. Like, what is it that you like? because it could be the culture. Right. And that. And you're not that. So I already understand why you'd be like, if your thing is Indian chicks, I'm not that. I'm not like, I'm not cooking. I feel very like, don't put me in a box like that. And you were trying to not be Indian a little bit. Right. But now, yeah, I think it would just get complicated with that person because I'm like, I already have enough complicated feelings around this. Yeah, you're not going to get the culture.

1:15:00If you're coming to me for like the Indian experience, you're not going to get it. But I don't know the stereotype. That's what I'm, that's why I'm more, I'm more concerned for guys that only date young Asian girls. I just don't, I know that one, because it has a lot of built-in stereotypes. There aren't those built-in stereotypes about Indian women. It's not that there's this subservient stereotype. It's not that there's a stereotype that the men have small penises. There's none of, none of that weird psychological baggage. baggage can i see why that would be your fetish as opposed to other groups i don't know what do you think of a girl a white girl who only dates black guys um i think that's in i also think that's interesting yeah um i would want to know why if i was the man i would also want to know why?

1:15:53Right. Because again, there's three likely explanations. Well, there's a hundred explanations. One is just aesthetically that's your pick. Yeah, gorgeous. A, that's your aesthetic. B, you're trying to rebel against your dad. See, this gets so this is so complicated so fast. I know, but I think these are likely buckets that one would have to consider. Or you two are playing up on a stereotype and you're a size queen. These are like the three things I'm thinking. No, it could also be like, I imagine that you have a view of the world that I find interesting or different. Great. That's a fourth one.

1:16:36I mean, to me, that is what would be attractive. That you're attracted to the culture. No, not the culture. The like. Different set of glasses. Different set of glasses. That this person is seeing the world in a way that I can't. Can't access without them. Yeah, and I think that's a beautiful thing to mix that, to understand other people. Yeah. That's the only way to do it. I like that one. But yeah, those are four really likely, I think, assumptions you could make. I think I am attracted to that. I think I'm attracted to things that are quite different than me. Novel and unique. I like it. It's fascinating.

1:17:17It is fascinating. It's juicy. It is fascinating. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:17:34I had a great trip to Texas. Oh, yeah. It was very brief, but I just love it. I love Austin, Texas. Yeah. And you got two steaks. I went down to Lambert's and got a pair of rib eyes, ribbies. Fuck, Monty. So good. They were really delivered. They're like candied. They're so candied. There's so much stuff in them. I took a picture. I may have sent it to you. It's just oozing with all these different color fats and. Juices. Yeah, sweet stuff. And oh, fuck. What a rib eye. Really good. Yeah. Did that. Shot all day. Yeah. Long 12-hour day. I've already said it 12 times. I haven't worked 12 hours in a long time.

1:18:20And had a blast on set. Met a lot of fun actors. Some I had seen in things and never met. That was fun. I forgot about that. Yeah. Getting to bump into people that you've seen and like in things. And then Saturday, I wasn't in the mood. Okay. But it is my commitment. I had to go to Barton Springs before I got on an airplane. You forced yourself. So I checked out of, it was a chilly day. Oh. I checked out of my hotel room and I went and I put my swimsuit on in the car and I did some treading of water. And I felt like I had worshipped at my church. I felt like, you know, elevated. You don't want to go to church.

1:18:57But when you leave, you're like, good, I went to church. I'm glad I went. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt. That's great. I'm glad you had a good time. I did. One more thing before we go. I tried multiple times to get in to a new diner. It's called Max and Helen's I shouldn't even say it But I am, I said it You said it Kristen, Anna and I I was like, let's do lunch at the new diner Check this place out Everyone's saying it's great They did a bunch of friends and family previews So I had already been seeing all these pictures People were saying it's so good It's amazing Life changing Life changing and I was like hell yeah so on Friday I told Kristen and Anna let's do lunch let's go to the new diner great what time should we go 12 1230 1245 great get there three hour wait I was I knew something was wrong as soon as I started to walk up cause a guy I know someone who works at the row shout out Max Max and Max and Helen, so this is confusing.

1:20:15Yeah, yeah. I saw him there, and we were chatting, and he said, oh, my God. He was like, you know, I came, I put my name down at 10 and went home, and now I'm back. And I was like, oh. And he was like, have you put your name down? And I was like, no. That was a red flag, you know? Did you send Kristen up front to see if they would give her? She wasn't there yet. But I, of course, thought it. Yeah, we got to get her up front. Yeah. See if they can make some moves. And I went up there and I did use her name. Gray. It did not matter. They didn't even bat an eyelash? Didn't do a thing. Yeah, good for them.

1:20:57So basically they were like three hours and just come back in three hours. And I was like, oh, my God. Four? Yeah, exactly. So we pivoted. Yeah. And then new plan, right? new plan on Sunday, Jess has therapy over right in that neighborhood. So new plan before therapy, Jess is going to put our name in and then we'll come three hours later. Smart. He texts me at like 11 and he said, no go. It's seven hours. Guys, that's not even real. I know. So you can't even make that prediction. It isn't real. It's like, I couldn't make that. They basically just said like, forget it. Don't go. Don't come here.

1:21:41They did. We're closed. They closed. We can't. We got to close. No. Yeah. So people get in line. I guess it opens at eight. People get in line at seven and they kind of get like, is there two tables inside this place? I don't know, but they go in like whoever's there first obviously goes in and then they're like, come back in the half hour, come back in an hour. I mean, they're going to have to figure out a better system than this because they do the phone text you I know I was like you do you text and they basically said no and I was like how are you doing this even like small towns in America have this system you think LA the most popular restaurant because they also are open I do think until like late not late but like later accommodating all the people put their name in at 4 p.m.

1:22:25well no but you can't even put your name that's what I'm confused about yeah so I don't know but I almost unfollowed them on Instagram because they were teasing. It was such a tease. I saw this turkey with gravy and a pie. And I was like, oh, I want that. Oh, yeah. So I haven't been in yet. And it's probably eaten you up pretty good. It's eaten me. It's getting to me. Yeah. If I saw the first time, I would never think of the place again. I know you wouldn't. I'm never going to go there. I know. Until they get shitty and people stop going. I was. I've already been thinking like, God, when? And like eight months from now will it die down?

1:23:01Like when? Maybe Tom Cruise will take you there. I don't even think Tom could cut the line. Don't say that. No, I'm serious. He would come right through the ceiling. He wouldn't fucking put his name in. Ethan Hunt will eat when he wants to eat. He can break into the Louvre and stuff. He can definitely eat at this restaurant whenever he wants. Oh, my God. It looks so good. What if he wanted to pick you up on a motorcycle? You got to do it. Do you think I'm safe doing that? Yeah, he's pretty good. Really? Mm-hmm. Okay. Then sure. You should get a leather jacket. God, this is great. No, I'm not going to change— This is going to be a hot night.

1:23:37I'm not going to change my personality. Why not have some fun? I have fun. Okay. He'll like me. Of course he will. He doesn't need me to in a leather jacket or to shave my sides. Also, it's fun to try out fun personas and go along and have different experiences than you previously have. So maybe you have a cool motorcycle jacket and you hop on back like you're always on back. And you just, you buy into the whole thing. Yeah. Doesn't sound fun to you. Not the motorcycle jacket. You're really afraid to lose yourself or something. I'm not afraid. Like if you act differently, you'll, or you'll forget who you are.

1:24:18No, I think it looks stupid. Oh, I think it looks adventurous. If you are doing something that's inauthentic to you, I think it's very clear. But Monica, how do you know something's authentic to you if you haven't tried it? That's unknowable until you try it. Okay. You sound like a cult leader. Let's get a motorcycle jacket. Okay. For this date with Tom Cruise to Max and Emma's. No, Max and Helen's. The Helen's. I'll probably wear the row. Okay. Okay. Not great motorcycle gear, I don't think. A lot of silks and thin. Like, why do Halloween? You know, why even do it? No one's any of the things that they get to pretend they are that day, but it's quite fun.

1:25:05Yeah, but we've already discussed me walking from the car to the house. It's like, I hate this. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, and I like it. Yeah. Oh, I'm this other creature now. People are seeing, but you get so used to how everyone sees you. The reaction is standard. You know what it's like to be you moving through the world. But all of a sudden you're wearing like six inch platform boots and a super tall mohawk and blah, blah, blah. You get to try on for that day. Oh, look how people are looking at me. This is so interesting. That's what's fun about acting is putting on personas and personalities and trying and doing that.

1:25:48That's fun. Yeah. And it could be in real life too. In my life, I feel like that's. You feel like a poser. Yeah, I do. Understood. And I think that's a common hurdle for people. But what's the difference between someone who's a poser and they're not? They were just like, I'm not. I'm going to do this. Like no one's born authentically punk rock or not punk rock or this or that. But you're drawn. You're drawn to it. You're like, I like this. I like this aesthetic. This makes me feel. But I don't have that. So I would just be doing it, trying to work from the outside in to feel. That would be the goal.

1:26:30But I feel unique. No, no. There's unique as a person. Yes, you're a unique person. Yeah. And then there's your day-to-day life. If you could have a very unique day. Oh, I see. That's what I'm saying. Like. Yeah. You just want me to address the part. I love unique, feeling unique. Having a unique experience. Yeah. Like, I don't like wearing a tuxedo. Yeah, I know. I hate it. I know. That's not for me. But I like that I wear a tuxedo sometimes and go to these award shows and I get to experience the whole thing. Do you? Because you're always like, you hate it. You hate that. I'm not looking forward to it.

1:27:05I don't like the inconvenience of having to have a suit, having to have it tailored, having to have hair and makeup. Like, all that stuff I'm not looking forward to. But being at the event dressed in the appropriate gear that you're supposed to be in, looking the part and pretending you're in a highfalutin scenario, I find fun. Interesting. Oh, yeah. This isn't my normal. I don't wear tuxes out to fancy black tie things. Yeah. So what I'm doing, I'm like, oh, yeah, this is out of the ordinary and unique. And I appreciate it for that. Okay. Yeah. I feel that that's maybe new for you. Oh. Because I feel like you used to be very attached to your authenticity.

1:27:51I think I'm still very attached to my authenticity, for sure. Yeah. But I've learned to incorporate like, oh, yeah, that's authentically me. I'm someone who has to do that. Well, exactly. Yeah, yeah. That's why that's a little different. I don't think me putting on a leather jacket and shaving my side. That's not authentically me. I think riding on a motorcycle could be. Okay. I've done that. Okay. But putting on like a character. He's probably going to pick you up in a Porsche, I think. How will we get in the restaurant then? He'll figure that out. Okay. Yeah. All right. All right. Let's do facts.

1:28:31Let's do some facts. Is this the vintage item you were talking about? Yes, I got this vintage. How old is it? Do you know? I don't know. Circa 80s, 90s? I feel like it looks 80s. This is my new shirt from my tour that I went to. Sabrina Carpenter. Oh, cute. Yeah, it says Man's Best Friend. Yeah, it does. Because that's the name of the album. Two of them. Yeah. Didn't hear any of those tracks because it's a short and sweet tour, but. Oh, she didn't give you any? I don't think so. I'm finally relating to Swifties. Okay. Because I have found myself. All I'm listening to is short and sweet, okay? All day long.

1:29:20Sure. Every day. I'm starting to really be an armchair detective for what voice she's talking about. I really get it now. Are you going to vocally apologize? Nope. I'm not going to apologize. because I'll own that it's bad of me too. So I'm not going to say, you know. But you need to apologize to Taylor because you think it's weird that she, you don't love that she does that, but now you're a fan of Sabrina who does that. Yes, and I'm still not a fan of it, but I like it. It feels like we're really parsing out deeds. No, like if I start stealing tomorrow. Please don't. If I start stealing tomorrow, I'll say, oh, I'm stealing.

1:30:01That doesn't mean I think stealing's right. It doesn't mean I need to go back and say like everyone who I said stole was wrong. No, I'm just, what I'm saying is I'm engaged in that juicy thing. Got it. And it's fun. I get it. It's still not great. It's still not good. But I do have theories. Oh, really? Yes. I mean, some, it's, we all know. Do you know these? You already know about Sabrina's? Yeah. You know so much. Everyone knows. No, no, I don't think everyone knows. I had to just go look it up. I know, but. But guess what? My hunch was confirmed by People Magazine. I know. Ew, see? Yeah. Yes.

1:30:42Yeah, bad. Yes, bad. But also, I don't want you to be offended by this. I love you deeply. Yeah, yeah. But you're behind the times. Yes, of course. So everyone does know. Okay, then who is. I don't want to say it. I don't want to participate in the thing. Right? I don't want to talk about this. Don't you do it with the Taylor songs? Well, do I? Yeah, you go like, oh, that song's about S-C-X. Charlie. Charlie X. Oh, Charlie. What is it? Charlie S-C-X? Oh, my God.

1:31:15Come on now. Help me out. You know what I'm saying. Charlie X-C-X. I didn't at first. I thought you were spelling out sex, and I didn't understand it. Isn't that what her name spells out? No, X-C-X. Oh, there's no E. Charlie X-C-X. C sounds like E. Even Barack Obama had Charlie XCX on his like top 10 like four years ago. But that's no shocker. Barry's always ahead of the curve. He's on top of it. Than I am. I know. I'm always looking at his book list of the year and going like, oh, I should read some of those. It's not like. Yeah. Okay. So I was listening and one was about like having read every self-help book and doing a mushroom trip.

1:31:53And I'm like, this sounds like Sean Mandel. Oh, no. I don't want to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We can't do this. Why? I don't know. Why? It doesn't feel right. It doesn't? He's a friend of the pod. I know. There's nothing. I'm not saying he's a bad boy. I'm just saying I think I figured out what the song's about. And I was so excited. And I understand the detective work people feel like they're doing is very gratifying. So then I searched. Well, first I asked Chat. Oh, God. Who are the songs about? Sure. Chat's very ethical. Chat won't tell me. Chat is not very ethical. Mine is very ethical. It wouldn't tell me.

1:32:29Okay. It just would say, oh, here's the themes. I don't think it wants to be liable. It lied to me. Liable, not lie. I think it lies, but. Yeah, it's, I don't know. Anyway. Whatever the case, it did take me to a link where this People Magazine article. Oh, no. But they were pretty much trying to credit every lyric on the album to Shawn Mendes, which there's been other lovers. I looked up her lovers. There's been a handful. Well, we know some of them are about Kogan. Barry Coogan is one. Kogan, yes. Kogan. Okay, I don't want to do this. This feels unethical to me for some reason. I don't know why.

1:33:07Interesting. But most of them are about Barry Coogan. So let's not do it, but can we explore why it feels unethical? Yeah. We also just did Lily, James, and— Lily, yeah, but that's so explicit. And David. That's my point. Like, I kind of like that Taylor and Sabrina and other artists. I need a nickname for her. Maybe Sabreen. Oh, you know, when we had Joey King on some years ago, and she is very good friends with Sabrina Carpenter. And she said that on her ride over, I'll never forget this. She said on her ride, maybe she was lying, like chat. Yeah. On her ride over, she was talking to Sabrina, and I think she called her Sabreen's or Sabreeny or something.

1:33:50Oh, like I'm doing. Yeah. And said, I'm going on Armchair Expert. And she said, I love that show. Oh, my God. We're getting sidetracked. Yeah. So you don't like to theorize on who these songs are, bro. I mean, I already, again, I already know. We all know. You already knew Shawn Mendes? People talk about this. It's also obvious because when you know someone's dating someone publicly. Yeah. Then they break up and then these songs come out. It's like, duh. Yeah, it is interesting, though, because, like, I think about this a lot. This is what brought Truman Capote down. Okay. Is that he used everyone in his life as archetypes for his books.

1:34:33And then it was very, very thinly veiled. Yeah. To the point where people felt quite betrayed and violated by him. I assume so, yeah. And people did not want to hang out with him at the end. And all he wanted was to be a socialite. Yeah. But when I think about like doing an ensemble show as a writer, I have these incredible archetypes in my life. Yeah. And so I would want to use key essence of them. But then I need to build on and deviate from that because I've established their engine. Now everything else is arbitrary. But I can see if you're on the outside, you're like, you would be inclined to think everything that came after the archetype was actually fact or reporting.

1:35:17But it's not. Yeah. Anyways, Sabrina Carpenter. Everyone knows Please, Please, Please is definitely about Barry Keoghan. Oh, really? See, you're telling me something. Yeah, absolutely. Please, please, please. Which is my favorite song. Okay, let me look. I love that song. Because all I do is listen to this album. And I should know exactly what it is. It's you're saying, please, please, please. Oh, that's the second song on the track. Oh. Don't embarrass me, motherfucker. Well, it can't be about him if he's in the video. It was. She would have written the song long before a video gets made. And don't we think the timeline is they met on this video?

1:35:59No, no, no. They were together. For 100 years. They were together before the video. Okay. Okay. I need to do a little more research on that. I don't know how he would be in the video that's. I mean, it's also like it's not. This one is just like this is you're kind of an embarrassment, but I like you and you're going to break my heart, but I like you. Like, it's not like you already did it. Okay. You know? Okay. Please, please. She's pleading. Anyway. That's not my jam. I mean, I like that song. Every song on the album's great. Yeah. It's a great album. Monica. I know. Again, I know because this was like two summers ago.

1:36:41Well, hold on. I don't know if that's the right dates. I have the album right up on my phone. I can look. I don't know about two summers. I think it was. I mean, she's on tour right now. It was a 2024 release. Yep, that's what I said. August 23rd. Summer's over. Summer's kind of over. No, please, please, please. An Espresso had already come out. Okay. Okay. Okay, let's do some facts. People can't come here for current news. I guess that's current topics. Well, I got to imagine there's a lot of dorks like me in the audience, though. Certainly, the whole world isn't listening to the album. It's a very big album.

1:37:18It's a huge album. It's not thriller. So I'm trying to push it to thriller numbers. Even the fact that that's the reference. That's the biggest album of all time. Okay. It's huge. It's a huge album. Yeah. Huge. Huge album. No, it's a great success. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it could be bigger. Not everyone is already, not everyone's sick of it yet, Monica. Some people are just going. I'm not sick of it. Some people are going, wow, I've heard of her, but I didn't know. I can't. Yeah. Okay. But my song, I just want to recommend my song. Okay. You already did, but let's do it again. Let's do it every day.

1:37:56It's your favorite song. You love it. You do. I love it more than anything. Well, no, you don't love it more than anything. That's a crazy thing to say. I love it more than air. Okay. Okay. My favorite song is called Don't Smile. Yeah.

1:38:20I didn't really have to look it up, but I did look it up. Because I know it's Don't Smile. Because it happened. Cry because it's over. I love that. I love that line. Because it's a flippy. Very validated because I sent the song to a very, very accomplished songwriter and producer. And I said, do you like this song? I can't stop listening to it. And he wrote back immediately. Oh, my God. That's my favorite song on that album. Exclamation point. And I felt so validated. That's great. Yeah. An expert said it was the best song on the album. His favorite, not the best. His favorite would be the best.

1:38:59He's a musical genius. He can't do this. He might say the best is this, but that's my favorite. He can't. No way. Whatever song he likes the most, he is the one he'd say is best. No, there are podcasts that I are my favorite that aren't the best. Okay. All right. I'm going to listen. We're in the middle of a fact check and Monica's making me very angry right now because I said I reached out to a very successful and brilliant songwriter to say that, what's my favorite song? Oh, Don't Smile. Don't Smile. And that this person responded, oh, that's my favorite on the album. And then Monica's suggesting that you didn't say it was the best.

1:39:49And I said, well, your favorite would definitely be the one you think is best. And she said, no, that's not true. You could think that another song's the best, but that your favorite is Don't Smile. Who's right? Phineas.

1:40:11Okay. Facts. Okay, now I have someone to call for something important. Calling Jim Brooks? Almost. Hey, Ma. You're on air because you didn't send it to me, so now you have to do it live. Oh, okay.

1:40:33The Shoe Maniac? Yes. Come on down and check me out. I'm the Shoe Maniac, and I sell thousands and thousands of Paramounts all leather shoes. I sell them cheap, folks. That's how I do it. That's why I sell more shoes than anybody downtown. Now, if you like plastic shoes, keep on walking because I hate plastic shoes. I can't stand plastic shoes. I sell nothing but all leather shoes. That's why I sell more shoes than anybody downtown. Thank you, Aaron. So good. Now, is your character specifically Cajun, or that's just a coincidence? Or did you go like, I'm going Cajun with this? Yeah, well, you know, yeah, I guess I'm kind of talking like this, you know?

1:41:12Sure. Plus, I'm missing a front tooth, so I think it makes me, I got a little bit of a lisp. Yeah, but you always make him Cajun. And that's part of the sell. It works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, a little bit like, yeah, yeah. A little more like flirtatious, outgoing-ish, you know? I had rubber shoes. And we gave out free popcorn at the store. Free popcorn, free drinks. Free popcorn, and then I'd have to pick out a lady, you know, from the crowd and tell her to come in. Would you pick a Would you always pick a lady that you thought Looked hungry for popcorn Or just the prettiest Who did you invite Usually it was a lady with some kids Who looked like she was miserable out there in the sun And you know get her in for a Cold drink and some free popcorn The free popcorn was That gets all kinds of people in a store Sure hungry Yeah and then they bring their kids And then they have to buy four pairs of shoes That's a good hack Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:42:16I mean, and popcorn costs nothing to make. So, you know. That's true. Sometimes I see these stores and they're just, you know, you got to think of things outside of the box to get people in your store. You can't just have a store and expect people to come in. You got to break through the clutter. Got to break through the crowd, man. Got to break through the crowd and find something. There's always something. There's always something. All right, Eric. Well, we love you. And I wanted the world to hear that. I love you to death, you guys. Talk later. Bye. Bye. So that came up because we talked about selling women's shoes.

1:42:48He had a fear of having to sell women's shoes for a living. Oh, sure. And our friend Eric, who we brought up in the episode, he sold women's shoes very well. As a child. As a kid. Yeah, his dad's business. Yeah. And as you can hear, he was great at it. Definitely, probably even cuter when it's coming out of a 10-year-old. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, he's got a speech memorized. Okay. What was the first TV show to have a black lead character sitcom? It was called Julia, 1968 to 71. And then Room to 22, which was his, which was 1969 to 74. And then The Cosby Show. Full of black leads. Okie dokie. Was Mary Tyler Moore's show the first female lead that didn't depend on a man?

1:43:37It says Honey West was the first network TV series of a female lead whose story was not dependent on a man. Premiered in 1965, starred Anne Francis as a private detective. While earlier shows featured female leads, Honey West was specifically designed to center on a female character in a non-traditional role, a private eye. Okay. What show did Taxi follow MASH? He didn't say that. He just said a popular show. Well, also, that's an interesting ding, ding, ding, because those both have the most beautiful theme songs that don't match at all their comedic genre. Well, okay, so it followed MASH from the 78 to 79 season and then followed Happy Days during 79 to 80.

1:44:25Which does not have a super beautiful jazz song. Isn't it? Monday, Tuesday, happy days. Tuesday, Friday, happy days. The weekends go. Yeah. Catchy.

1:44:43I used to know all the lyrics. It's hard. That's a bad sign. Well, you had to push it aside to have Sabrina in there. I got to make room. There's a new queen in town. How much money did the Simpsons generate? Oh, yeah, he wouldn't tell us. Yeah. He says he didn't know, but it's estimated to be well over$14 billion. $14 billion. Yeah. Dude. That's awesome. From jokes. I know. How cool. $14 billion. Yeah. Did the Mary Tyler Moore show win a Peabody? Yes, in 77. So that's cool. It also won 29 Emmys. Mary Tyler Moore? I've never watched Mary Tyler Moore have you Yeah cause I used to watch when I was at my Grandparents house when I was little they had A Nickelodeon block party summer And Monday through Friday there was A show and then they would just play that show All night and it was like Bewitched was one night I Dream of Jeannie was one night Mary Tyler Moore show was one night Some others And they'd show a whole season in one night Well no they just showed like some episodes And then for the summer they would do that.

1:45:57Oh, that's fun. Yeah. It was an education. So yeah, I watched it. And did you like it? Yeah. I need to watch it. Yeah. I'm sure it holds up. TBD. I just don't know. I mean, I'm sure it's still like, oh, wow, that's awesome. For the time. For the time. I just wonder if you'd go for the time. You'd have, I think you might have to say for the time. For the time, yeah. That's it. That's everything. That's it for Jim Brooks. Jim Brooks. All right. All right, love you.

1:46:26Thank you.

1:46:56slash survey.