Lukas Gage

22:47Like, is this fight for me? Do you have all that stuff? I was terrorized and getting beat up every day and getting shot down with, like, BB guns. And it was what you think of when you see school bully stuff on TV where you're like, that doesn't happen. And did you have any buddies that were like, I'm so sorry this is happening? My brothers, Corey and Travis, they were, like, having my back and being protective. They were my friends. When does Corey start getting mixed up with drugs? He started using heroin at 14. At 14? How did that come into his purview? I think just friends. Heroin was really popular in San Diego.

23:19By the time I graduated, about eight people in my class had overdosed. What? Yeah. Wowzers. Do you attribute that to its proximity to Mexico? Yeah. I mean, we would go to Tijuana and get drugs when we were kids and go at lunch and get tacos and drugs and then go back to school. Yeah, I read that you would go at lunch to Tijuana. Yeah. That's crazy to me. What? How far is it? It was easier back then, too, to go back and forth through the border. But it was probably a 30-minute, 20-minute drive. and then you just park your car at the McDonald's and walk over and then walk back. Wow. Yeah. I had this girlfriend in high school who kind of like showed me the ropes and was iconic and was like, we're going to go get all these stuff and I'm going to come bring it back.

23:57And I guess maybe they knew where to go and where to get it. But I just remember it being so easy. That is wild. That's dangerous. Yeah. Very. If I could have left my high school in a half an hour of mine, shit, that would have been problematic. Would you drink at lunch? Yeah, everything. Okay. Everything. I got it all out of my system. by the time I was 18. But you go to your dad's house on Father's Day when you're 13 to see him. You spend the night. I can't believe this research. Holy shit. What happens? I get Paris Hilton'd. I get kidnapped in the middle of the night and sent to a wilderness camp.

24:31It sounds so nice when you call it a wilderness camp. Yeah. So you had that full experience. Yeah, I got fully kidnapped. When it's happening, is your dad shouting, I arranged this. You're going to a wilderness camp. You're going to be a great repeller when you're done with this. Don't worry, but do worry. Yeah, yeah. I think he couldn't even look at me. I think he couldn't look at me. And I remember calling out for his help and being like, this is your chance to make it right. What were the behavioral things that had led up to that decision on their part? I was a nightmare kid. I think not only was I starting to use substances as a really young age, I found out later that my mom, she was in cahoots with my dad about it.

25:10That was the biggest shock to me because I didn't think my mom would do that. But I think other than that, I mean, as a kid, I was crying out for attention, crying out for validation, screaming, fighting, biting. I literally bit kids all of elementary school. You were a biter. I was a biter. Oh, wow. So I definitely had behavioral problems. You always hear people talking about the biter in their school, but you don't ever meet the biter. I was the biter. Would you see like a little piece of a part of someone's body and be like, yeah, I'm going to fucking sink my teeth into that? Do you remember any premeditation or was it very impulsive?

25:43No, it's not kinky like it is now. I think it would be like a kid would beat me on handball and like be mean to me about it. And then I'd be like, oh, I'm going to fuck you up and like push him and bite him. I would see red as a kid and I would go off and I got applauded for it too. My big brothers, they loved it. They would dare me. We loved jackass growing up and all that stuff. So I'd get naked and go into like the Vons and scream. Oh my God. But they would videotape me on their skateboard. So I was rewarded for being a little shit. Crazy, yeah. Obnoxious. That was the way I got attention. That was the way I got validation.

26:16That was the way I felt like they loved me. Yeah. You know? I feel bad because I am judgmental of anyone who sends their kid to a wilderness camp. But also, I imagine being the parent. You're terrified, right? What do you do? You're like, they're going to die. Yeah. 100%. So I'm going to walk in and I'm going to go to wake them up for school and they're going to be dead. So whatever thing I'm going to choose is going to be less bad than that. And I think my mom, too, being a single mom dealing with a kid that was using heroin, I think she was just like, I cannot deal with another nightmare. We have to reform this kid.

26:50Get him away. And was Corey getting into legal trouble and medical issues? Oh, yeah. And so she was really at max capacity. She was deep in it and like working and trying to keep her head above water. It was crazy. I think you have the thing I had, right? Which is like dad laughs, so dad's the villain and mom's an angel. No, my mom wasn't perfect either. Okay. But I love her and I ride for her no matter what. You know, like she's a badass and took care of us. And actually, yeah. Because you're like, oh, one stuck around. And you're like, fuck, thank God one stuck around. I really owe this one.

27:22You know, once you realize it's an option to leave. I was a mama's boy. I still am a mama's boy. Yeah, that's lovely. Yeah. So what was the wilderness camp like? Also, I'm sure the literature that was shown to them, the pamphlet, probably looked really constructive. Oh, yeah. It was like orange grove. like something really like happy and constructive. I remember them thinking it would be a good thing and it was just chicken in a bag, rice in a bag. Here's your tent, learn how to build it, go hike for like 12 hours, be alone. If I did something bad one day, like I wrote an SOS letter and like sent it around and ran away in the middle of the night and like made it with like the arts and crafts.

27:58I crafted an SOS letter and they put me in isolation in the middle of the mountain for like a day. They would do the classic thing where they knock you down to build you back up and think that their system is the right way to do it and just make you feel horrible about yourself did it have any positive impact on your behavior no i did the complete opposite i rebelled twice as hard when i came out i fucking was even more of a nightmare i didn't trust anybody yeah i fought with other kids i don't know i made me resilient maybe sure i think in all fucked up things but i don't even want to give them that yeah you know but like i guess every bad thing that has happened to me or every hardship I've gone through.

28:37I have learned something from it, I think. It's one more thing you're like, well, I survived that thing. Yeah, proof of survival. I lived and now I'm past that. I don't subscribe to what they did. That was another common thing in my high school was like people went to juvie and rehabs and Utah, like all these crazy places that were doing way worse shit. I was molested at a regular summer camp, not at that camp. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which you have really helped me with, by the way. Have I? Well, just the way that you talk about it, I've had a therapist tell me a hundred times, not your fault. It's not your fault.

29:10And when you talk, I think it was on Anna Kendrick's podcast or another podcast you talked about, no matter how many times people can say that you felt like you were an active participant, there was a curiosity there. Yeah. There's some culpability you're aware of. Mine was, I wanted this go-kart, you know, like I knew I should not be there. I really wanted this go-kart. I was being promised that I could buy it for a very suspicious. Buy it? You still had to buy it? You still had to buy it? Oh, yeah. You didn't even get it for free? Oh, my God. No, no, no. It's a bad deal. This thing was worth like$500, but I was going to be able to buy it for$100.

29:43And I had a whole plan. I was going to mow this many grasses. Oh, no way. So sad. It's fucking gruesome. But I got to tell you, man, I've had a new light shown on that whole experience. We had this expert who teaches at Johns Hopkins, and she's the head of this program that does nothing but study child sexual abuse. And she's like 70 % of sexual abuses by other kids. And so although this dude was way older than me, he also wasn't 18. Now I don't know. Like I used to have this guilt of like, fuck, I should have turned him in. I don't know how many people he fucked with. But now after talking to her, I'm like, I don't know that he ever did.

30:17I don't know. Right. Like it might have just been this weird fucking thing. I don't know if he was a pedophile or what. I get that. That your mind goes to like not being able to like put it together, piece it together, what it actually was. Yeah. I think for so long I felt like, well, I wanted it. Yeah. And like my therapist could be like, well, you're in your 20s and would you hook up with a 10 year old? And I'm like, fuck no. Right. But it didn't matter. But when I heard you talk about that and the way that you had those conflicting thoughts about it because you wanted that thing and you were looking for that thing that you felt so much guilt and shame and to look back at little Dax and little Lucas and be like, yeah, but of course you did.

30:53You want to go. You're a kid. I'm like, yes, I did ignore my Spidey. senses. A hundred percent. I violated my body telling me something. And also, yeah, I was a little kid who wanted to go cart and I can forgive that. I can't just pretend that I didn't get any signals. That was the part that was corrosive to me. Yeah. It was like, I knew there was some part of me that played a role. Right. That's what I felt. Yeah. I think that's where the real guilt is. I think people miss it. It hasn't happened to. I think so too. And I don't know if you did this. My go-to was make a joke about it being like, how could I not have been molested?

31:26Or I I was like a slutty little 10 year old. Like that was my joke that I would go to it until my. You were irresistible. I was irresistible. And my therapist was like, you have to stop doing this. You cannot use that as a coping mechanism. It's weird that I can have a medical professional tell me it a hundred times. But hearing you talk about that in that interview really, really, really, really. Oh, that makes me really happy. Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare. We are supported by Allstate. checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking that your keys are actually in your hand before you close the car door.

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32:38Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club, incorporated an Allstate affiliate. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. We've talked before about Rob building our website on Squarespace, And I bring it up again because it's a perfect example of what they do well. Rob had all the pieces, the content, the vision, the ideas, but he needed something to actually take all that and make it public facing. And Squarespace was that bridge. Maybe you're in the same spot. You've been developing something, a business, a skill set, a body of work, and it's been private. It's been yours.

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35:08Yet 74 % say society discourages people from doing so. That's a huge gap. Most of us agree therapy is a good thing, but there's still something holding some people back from actually going. Right. And I think that's where just talking about it, normalizing it makes a difference. I mean, as you know, I'm obsessed with therapy. I've been in it consistently for years and years and years. And I have said this and I shouldn't say it, but I do think if you're struggling and you've been struggling for a while and you haven't sought therapy, I judge you a little bit. Oh, wow. Okay, yeah, I know. And I got to go to therapy to work on that, you know, but also there are options for you.

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36:15it's funny you say that though isn't it true there's such a power in watching someone else process something that can get through to you or if it's being directed at me it can't i remember there was a moment where monica was getting interviewed by a therapist or hypnotist and she was telling this story and i had seen her tell it a million times and the therapist said i don't know why you're smiling. Yeah, it was Gabor Mate. Yeah, he said, why are you smiling? He said, is it funny? And I was like, no. I mean, I was telling like a sad story or something. I don't remember what I was saying, but I said no.

36:50And then he was like, why are you smiling? And then it wasn't rhetorical. He was really asking. And I was like, I guess because I'm uncomfortable. And you really had to start like breaking it down. I mean, I was doing it. I did it earlier, too. Right. I get it. I get it. I do it. It's almost like you want the other, you're signaling like, I'm good. I'm good. Don't feel bad. I want to make you comfortable so you don't feel like uncomfortable with my weird shit. With this awkward story I'm telling you. 100%. Yeah, and being vulnerable, but not too vulnerable so that you then feel uncomfortable. God, why do we do that?

37:21I know. Well, we're social animals. I can't resist but be this way and I'm apologetic that I am and that I'm going to try to make it as light as possible so we can all. But you're saying when that happened, you noticed. When it happened to you. Yeah. You realize you did it. And someone wasn't challenging me on why I was smiling. Like I would have got defensive with that question. Right. Or made up some on the spot justification. But I just was watching my sweet friend smile at something that really didn't warrant smiling. And I thought, well, how sad on top of sad that that is happening. And then I was like, yeah, and I do that too.

37:54Everyone does it. Yeah. What age do you get fixated on acting? Right after I got jumped. I did like little things as a kid and I would hide it. You know, I did a warts commercial and then fucking kids found it in high school. Oh, God. Warts? Compound W, dude. Oh, no. Oh, my God. I tried to hide it from the whole school. Wait, hold on, hold on. Venereal warts? No, no, no. I got that. As a kid? I got that later in life. I mean, come on. HPV. We all have it. I remember that as HPV. No, it was the compound W for warts on your fingers. Oh, rough. Yeah. Do you remember when you got the role of your pump?

38:28But you're also like, this is fucking career suicide for my high school. Yeah, I remember feeling both of those things and just really trying to hide it. And I was hiding, like doing plays and stuff in the town over because it's gay. Yeah, you were obviously you had a real secret. Yeah, a lot of secrets. They're corrosive. You said you have a cousin that came out gay and always knew and you had some jealousy of that. Yeah. And then I guess that's interesting. It should be obvious. There's every version of everything on planet Earth. But I'm so used to hearing gay folks say like, oh, yeah, I always knew.

38:59And I kind of am interested in the notion that it could be a slower burn. I think, honestly, a lot of it, like my first sexual experiences was, sorry to talk about molestation so much, being molested by a guy. So there was a lot of that wrapped up into it. So I really loved these girlfriends I had. I was like obsessed with them. I was obsessed with love from a very young age. And I was so happy to just like be sexual and be physical and be in love with these girls. And if any kind of thought like that would go through my mind, I would justify it with like, well, I was molested though. That's like some residual trauma from that.

39:35100%. I don't know if I blacked out before that of having that awareness, but I really don't think I did. I really think that any kind of inkling or curiosity or suspicion of it was then being like, but you got molested. That's why, of course, you feel that way sometimes. But like, you love your girlfriend. You love your girlfriend. And a part of me really did. Yeah. And a part of me said something on some podcasts where I pissed people off or I said, like, I'm 10 % straight or something. I think I said, because like every once in a while I do have sex with girls. I know I'm pretty damn gay. You know, like, I'm pretty gay.

40:10Do you watch English Teacher? I've watched English Teacher, yeah. I love it so much. I think it's the funniest show ever. So funny. But in the second season, he goes and he's around either his sister or his female friend's fiance. And the guy is presenting as very, very gay. But he's saying he's bi. At some point, he confronts him. I don't know if you saw this scene. He's like, I don't know, man. You're reading very gay to me. Like, what percentage? And the guy is like, well, I'm 90 % gay and 10 % bi. And he goes, so you're 5 % straight. Or whatever the math was. Maybe that's where I got it from.

40:47And like literally it leaked into my interview. That's so funny. Well, if you're 10 % straight, you're 5 % straight. That is so funny. But why were they mad about that? That's so crazy. I don't know. It's just like everyone needs these boxes. Yeah, you need a straight line. I know why someone is. Yeah, let's see. You do? Tell me. I do. I know someone like this. And it's all heartbreaking. This is all the byproduct of fucking being shit on and victimized. So it's like there is a period for some gay dudes where they feel like the easier, softer path is to say I'm bi. 100%. We all do that. You're still at least, right?

41:19Bi now, gay later. That's like a saying from the 90s when kids would first come out as bi. And so. What a stupid. Bi now, gay later. Yeah. It's pretty good. Kind of like it. Yeah, solid. Want to get a tattoo? Yeah, yeah. Lucas likes it. I like it. Yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. You've never heard that? I've never heard that. I've never heard it either. I think because in the 90s, people were starting to really identify as bi. It was a new thing. And then people were like, bi now, gay later. But for those people who had that specific thing where they were just gay, but they were pretending to be bi to lessen the blow to everyone around them.

41:53They then realized I was being dishonest with myself. I'm 100 percent gay. So they're hearing your story. And it's very easy for them to project. Oh, he's still trying to preserve. He's got 10 percent of a toehold in his shame. And that's why he's saying that. Yeah, I know. But that's not fair to anyone. I mean, but maybe though, I feel like there was a part of me that was preserving it at first when I first started experimenting with guys. Like I hooked up with my neighbor. But then after that, I was like, okay, I'm only going to hook up with couples. And it was a guy and a girl. And that will be less, you know.

42:23This is like addiction stuff. Yeah, it is. Totally. Definitely was. Here's my fake roadblock. Yeah. So it won't get worse. Exactly. Compartmentalize it. Well, that's one other thing I want to talk about. San Diego is a real military town. Yeah. And I'm imagining that kind of compounds the masculine vibe a little bit, like the hypermasculine vibe. 100%. There's a lot of that. It's a bro culture out there. That's where the Navy SEALs are based, right? Yeah, there's a lot of them going around. I think especially when your dad leaves and you don't have like that male figure in your household. I had a stepdad that was around for a little bit, but to look at that as what masculinity is as a teenager and having that around you and being like, oh, I have to be that.

43:01is probably why I was such an asshole when I went to my new school is like trying to emulate these Marines that were walking around my town because I'm like, this is what it means to be a man and to not be fucked with. Yeah. These guys are not getting beat up in the hallway. No. These dudes. No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're on Grindr though. Yeah, they sure are. I see these depicted in movies and it always breaks my heart. I think maybe the saddest thing that can happen to young gay boys is they end up having a secret relationship. and then like the toxic nature of the secrecy ends up being so cruel to one another because they're both hiding and that seems to me to be the heartbreakingest part like you can't even have the beautiful fun loving fling did you have any of those situations 100 i was super in love with my neighbor the first guy i'd ever been with was with him for three years hiding it for a year from everybody and it was tearing him down that i had to finally it was after a little mermaid audition that i came out to everybody that's a good time to do a great time to do it right i started crying in the auditions they're like tell us the secret that you have and i realized that this secret that was so fun at first and like made it so hot like i think it's really sexy to have a secret until it's not until it just like eats you fucking when it's your identity did he want to be out loud about it and you didn't yeah he did he did he was he was really kind and really considerate and buried like when you're ready it's whatever but then i think after years like dude come on you gotta come clean yeah was the pressure compounded by all these older brothers i can't imagine that would help i gotta give it to my brothers they were pretty cool and pretty artsy even though they beat me up there was still like that side of them that didn't give a shit about that but if i'm being honest i think a lot of it came from hollywood and the industry of being like do not come out because you're only going to play gay.

44:53You're only going to be seen as the gay guy. And that was true. It was. And I think it's still a little bit true. I think it's definitely still, I mean, look, we have like Jonathan Bailey now who's everyone's in love with rightfully so. But like there is still resistance met with like, can Lucas play a leading guy, you know? It's interesting. I know a very, very famous adored male actor who I know is gay. and I've never heard him say it in public, and he plays a lot of sexy hetero dudes, and I do wonder, like, is he not telling anyone because of that? And then also, if people knew, would that impact?

45:36You never know. Like, I don't know when that time has come. I remember when Anne Heche was in the movie with Harrison Ford, and she had just come out, and people were like, what? How am I going to buy into that? She's in love with Harrison. But forget the age game. Right. That wasn't our issue. Who cares about that? That's fine. He's old. That part's normal. That makes sense. But what about her being lesbian? I guess that's the only thing. Like, I don't love the idea that people can't play other people. I hate it. That's bullshit. The only time I was ever defensive of it is I was like, when straight dudes were getting cast as famous gay characters, I was like, well, y 'all, if you're not going to give them the fucking straight roles, you cannot take the gay roles.

46:14There's going to be none left. That did feel uniquely unfair to me. Yeah. I agree with you on that part. I did feel that way. But with every other scenario, I get really territorial and defensive of people when they come for them. Yeah. I think it's bullshit. Let's go through the timeline of starting to work. What age were you? I think I was like 20 or 21 when I did American Vandal. That was good. It was a recurring role on a Netflix show that people liked. And then I did this kid show with Claudia, actually. Oh. At the same time or the year before that. That's where I met Claudia. Okay. Luski is one of the best people of all time.

46:50Yeah. We love her so much. And then I think it was a year or two after that, I must have been 22, 23. I reach out to Sam Levinson because I saw Another Happy Day. It reminded me of my family. I wrote this long letter. He says that he's doing this movie in New Orleans right now. And I like convince a New Orleans agent. I lie to them and say, I live in New Orleans. Local hire. Local hire. Save a couple bucks for production. I meet him. I lie. I get on a plane. I work with him. And then a year later, he put me in euphoria. So that's where it really all. Because the part of the story I really want to learn about, you were getting accused of queer baiting.

47:31Yeah. Why would you be accused of it? Yeah, so they thought you were straight and acting. What did they think? They were like, you're taking gay roles and you're straight. There we go. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And you're like, but I'm. But I love Britney Spears and I'm making out with men. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It was obviously that's an online thing. Yeah. So when do you become aware of it? Immediately. You're checking your Instagram and your Twitter and you're getting DMs all the time. And what kind of things would people say? Just like you're a piece of shit. How dare you take, you know, and I'm just like reading them.

48:04And at first it's funny and I'm like, God, you guys have no idea. And then it starts to really piss you off. I had this like viral tweet moment where someone said like, I hate him and I hate his fucking face and I hate that he takes roles from gay people. And I wrote something. I think I was drunk when I wrote it, but I wrote like, you don't know my alphabet or something like that. And then he's like, well, inform us. And then I just wrote no with a heart and people liked it, I guess. And I think that they were like good for him for not feeling like he has to disclaim what he is to some troll on the Internet.

48:38Again, it's one of these things where you really can't ever win. You can't ever win. Because then the next year you get married to a guy on the Kardashians and then they fucking hate your guts. So it's just like you cannot fucking win. You go all the way with it. And then it's too much. And they hate that. Oh my God. So how much was it affecting you and how did you decide to then be public about it? And was it motivated by that, like to shut these people up? Maybe there was some defiance in me to be like, I'm going to push back and be so on your fucking face about it. But then another part of me was in a weird area where I got manic and married a stranger after a couple of weeks of knowing them.

49:15Yeah. OK, so we need to pause here. And again, this might be fun for you because I know when I'm inside of crisis things, I just am convinced everyone knows about it. So one thing is, like, I didn't know about the viral moment with the director. Oh, great. I love that. Like, I didn't know about that. I don't know either. And you didn't know about it. Ryan Hansen, he knows everything. Of course. He's very in the know. I'm interviewing him on Wednesday. I'm afraid to talk to him. I don't want to ruin it. He's like, oh, yeah. He had that, like, really cool thing where he posted. Well, you tell the story.

49:44Yeah, what happened? I know you're sick of it. I'm just here to show you that truly a lot of people have no clue. Until now. I love that you guys don't know. I mean, it's great. Yeah. Basically, it was like the first audition during COVID. It was a Zoom. Everyone turns their cameras off. It goes quiet. They're like, you ready to go? The director forgot to mute his microphone. So he's like with his wife or somebody. He's like, oh, my God, look at this poor actor and this shitty apartment. No, I didn't say shiny, tiny apartment with a TV and a bed and a sofa in the same room as each other. And then I was just like, oh, your mic's still on.

50:18Uh-huh. Really quick. Yeah. That's a decision. You've made a choice. You're a real actor because you're like, I could have pretend I didn't hear this. Yeah. And he'll never know. Or maybe he'll notice he was on me totally. How could you not say it, though? But I think a lot of people would have just pretended it didn't happen. Yeah. So I love, okay, so what did you say exactly? I was like, I know that it's a shitty apartment, but if you get me this job, I'll get a better apartment. Yeah, that's great. And it was true. I love the apartment. It was a cute little studio apartment down the road. And then I made it as a part of like an improv of the scene.

50:52Like I incorporated it. Maybe I probably did it a little too much. Sure, a little heavy-handed. You went back a little well. I was like, yeah, you can come back to my tiny apartment later. Like I started using it. If you hadn't called him out and then you did the audition and you said tiny apartment in the audition. He would have his face would have caught on fire. Yeah. That's the real. That was probably the smarter. Yeah. OK, so you got the role. No, no, I didn't get the role. But there's a happy ending. OK, the next audition was White Lotus. Come on. Hell yeah, you got rewarded. So if I got that one, I wouldn't have been done White Lotus.

51:30And then after a night of fun during White Lotus, a couple months later, I decided to post the video. Oh, because you had recorded it? Well, we had to record it on our end. You got to send it. Oh, yeah. We had to be like our cinematographer and our editor in this. It was like so annoying. Oh, my God. And so I posted it and woke up to 100 calls and like 100 ,000 requests. It's very viral. It was really viral. Wow. Ryan Hansen saw it. He knew the whole story. He loved it, by the way. I love it. He's like, oh, the way he handled it was so cool. When that video happened, I was like a champion for actors, right?

52:04For a month. And then the month later, I was a fucking liar. I was the kid who conned a video with a director to get sympathy to get on White Lotus. Oh, that was the narrative they spent? That was the next narrative. Wait, how could you have possibly manipulated the guy into talking about your apartment? They released a statement apologizing. I'm like, how could I pull this out? They're like, that's the greatest marketing move ever. It's insane what people believe versus the real things they refuse to believe. I know. The chasm between what's being ignored about objective reality and then embraced about fucking conspiracies is mind-blowing.

52:44No, it's insane. It really is. Just like the back and forth of people loving me and saying I'm a hero to being like, this guy is a fucking piece of shit and we hate him. And the ride you're on. Yeah. It hijacks your dopamine system. Even if you're not prone to mania, it can put you there. Oh, yeah. What was happening like emotionally? I heard you say like it really sucked. I had a moment as an actor. I had some pop. I was on some shit. And then I kind of didn't have that. And then I had this moment as like, I don't know what you even call that. Like a public face. A public face. And you said like, this feels like a 15 minutes of fame thing, which I don't like.

53:19It probably was also complicated. I would have loved being a hero for a month. Yeah, but even that is like not the right messaging to give somebody. I think that can fuck you up, too. Yeah, it's fraudulent. It's not real. None of this is fucking real. Yeah, it doesn't matter. But I think I was just so narcissistic at that time and like so obsessed of what everyone was saying and so focused on myself. Hard not to. It's hard not to. And then you're like, oh, Jesus, now I'm just famous for this thing. No one's ever going to take me serious as an actor. Well, it's like all that stuff takes precedent of all the hard work that I'd put in for a decade that I was really trying to focus on that.

53:54And suddenly it's just only the headlines that people know you from. So I rewatched a bunch of your scenes on White Lotus today. You're so fucking great on that, dude. You're so great on it. You have like a real unique point of view as that character. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Watching Jennifer Coolidge and Murray Bartlett and Molly Shannon on set, that's like the best comedy lesson. They are unreal. The coolest people ever. And we got so close on that show. You guys were all living at that four seasons and we were living at the four seasons. During COVID? During COVID. No one lived there but us. Oh, dude.

54:27And like the expectation wasn't there yet. We didn't know what it was going to be. Yeah. It's just like, oh, this fun show. But then it's the biggest show. I just learned so much from them about, I think what I was talking about with Doug Liman too, actually is like not going in with a plan. if not being like I'm a good student and I'm prepared and look at like all the choices I made last night that doesn't fucking matter you're gonna find something better on the day that's fresh the camera loves that and so just watching them every take do something different as you know a 25 year old green actor was like oh you can do that you're allowed to go outside of this parameter try a bunch of shit and it's okay if you eat shit because they won't use it yeah maybe it will Well, you were protected by Mike White, who has an impeccable, amazing taste.

55:14Yes. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Did you hang with him a bit? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love Mike. He's the best. Yeah. He's a very fascinating dude. The most fascinating, smart guy I've ever met, I think. Disarming, too. You're like, hold on, that guy's the showrunner? 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. I know. He's on Survivor. He hasn't figured out. I was just going to say, I'm like, I want to make a show, be a director, a writer, go to fucking Survivor and The Amazing Race and then come back to HBO. Yeah, right? Like, that's so cool. He just does whatever the fuck he wants to do. And go like, when do I most want to be in another country?

55:49I think summer would be fun. Dreamy. Okay. I love these notes on me. Can I read them? No. Oh, that'd be so scary. Oh, that'd be so scary. No. I'm trying to think of something, Tara. Why do you want to do it? I can tell you this has happened a couple times that you expect people to think that. You expect people to not like you or to have an idea about you that's negative. Well, I think I go in I humiliate myself or make fun of myself before they can beat me to the punch. Yeah, it's your armor. Yeah, I expect it. But it's not happening. Over here anyway. I know. I like you. I liked you when I met you in Austin.

56:25I have nothing but good feelings about you. Okay, Fargo. How do you get that role? Walk me through getting that role. I was in London. I self-tape myself for I think every I don't know if you experience this as an actor where they would have you audition for the guy they love you but they're like he's just not right but we're gonna bring him back for this one and then this one like that was the trajectory of every single euphoria white lotus bargo you every single time it's like they bring me in for something else and they don't know what to do with me but they're intrigued they're intrigued yeah that's great yeah there's something there and I think that was another scenario where I was of this show.

57:03I want to work with Noah Hawley. I'm just going to keep auditioning and keep sending tapes until he says yes. And so that character was obviously written. You auditioned for that? Yeah. It's not like he had seen you trying all these other characters and they're like, oh, let's put him over here. Actually, I think in that one, I think I tried out for like Joe Keery's role in another guy and I got close and then I think he was like, just give him that one. Uh-huh. I think it was that situation on that one. Oh my God, are you great in that? Yeah, you're great. Thank you Fuck Wait did you say you A show on Netflix Yeah Oh I don't remember I'm in a London season I love that one The American that gets Pied on Oh you got peed on Oh The piss fetish Tell me No I can't I want to spoil it I don't want to spoil it It's already been spoiled He gets peed on Well a lot happens You got shit on as well A lot happens in that show I got obsessed with that show Did you Like last year I think And every time I would Come into the fact check I was like okay So I'm watching you a show on Netflix.

58:01And I prefer that she said, I'm watching a show on Netflix called You, but she refused to do that and she'd always gone watching You. That happened a lot. Oh,

58:14what's her name from Fox News? Lauren Bergman. No, no, no. Laura Ingram. Have you seen this? Hey, you. I don't have a show on You. What? What's he talking about? So stupid. I'm on a show on Netflix What? Called you? Called you? Oh It's worth That's worth the rewind About diabetes Like there was another No measles About measles We didn't do a show on measles We didn't do a show on measles Oh my god Oh my god That's so funny Yeah That clip Okay Anyway I love that show Okay so you come off Fargo Yeah I want to know How we get to the marriage On the Kardashians Which is a spectacular thing to be I know I'm sure it's loaded for you It's my best IMDB credit Honestly you're gonna be on your deathbed one day as we all will be and i promise you you're gonna be like i'm so glad i got married on the kardashians like fuck it man it's one trip on planet earth i think it's iconic i think it's so funny it's so stranger than fiction if you wrote that down on a piece of paper like of a script in my life i would be like there's no way that's gonna happen well what happened i don't even know so let's just talk about you met chris i met this dude i met this guy mentally when you met not great okay what version of not great long story short is i was in another relationship that had ended i was devastated completely horrible it screwed me up so bad that it's so embarrassing i don't give a shit i was crying on set and they called my reps and they were like this kid keeps crying on set like is he okay on fargo no it was on you were show on Netflix?

59:50No, it was on the show called Dead Boy Detectives that I was on on Netflix. Yeah, it's better. I was like in a cat prosthetic crying. Okay. Yeah, you could have pointed a lot of fingers at that moment. I mean, go on. I love that show though. It's the best show ever. Best show ever. But still, you're in a cat outfit. I'm the cat king. So I'm crying and someone had called my people. My people were like, what is wrong with you? And then I started crying with them and I was like, no one loves me. I'm going to die alone. This career doesn't matter or nothing. That was like a real existential place of like nothing thing matters and I just want to be in love.

1:00:21They were like, you need to go somewhere. So they made me check into a place. They wouldn't give me another audition until I checked on myself. These are very ethical reps. Because they were like, you're depressed. And in this episode, I fired him. One of the biggest mistakes I ever made. You can mend that. There's chances. Yeah. Yeah. That's totally salvageable. I go to this place. They put me on the most insane cocktail medications. They give me my diagnosis that I have borderline personality disorder. How quick does it take them to determine that? A couple of weeks. And then I was fighting them on it.

1:00:54Still fight them on it. Yeah. We'll get back to that. Did you listen to our episode on borderline personality disorder? No, I need to listen to that one. It's very interesting. It's incredible. I'm so glad we did it. And we've run into people in real life. This waitress came up to me and was like, you just can't imagine how much I appreciate that episode like i battled this thing and i was like yeah dude it's like everything else it's just one more thing that someone's like fucking contending with it really shined a wonderful light on it all because we were just like oh bdp it's scary yeah i have the same thing i resisted it and i was like we over pathologize everybody and just like put this thing on them and that's who you are and you have this albatross around your neck so i fought with it a lot and i have a lot of people in my life who would be like you 100 have it and i think especially that saw me in that period would be like without a doubt.

1:01:41Yeah. So they put me on these meds, was not the right meds. They overmedicated me. Yeah. And I was really not myself. I was straightening my hair, changing all my clothes, just being manic. I really was. Yeah. Untethered. Yeah. And I meet Chris. It's like this whirlwind romance. It's moving at the speed of light. Every date is a string quartet band. He's also gorgeous. I didn't know of him until today. Yeah. He's fucking gorgeous. Yeah. He's got an accent. He's also dialed into the Kardashian world. that's fun especially if i'm 29 i'm like this is very fun it was fun and it was really that feeling that i was searching for so long or what i thought it was of like being lovable and having someone that did these grand gestures of love so when he proposed really early on i said yeah and how quickly a couple months less Okay, a couple hours?

1:02:32No. A couple weeks? Okay, a couple weeks. Is there any voice in your head going like, we know, statistically, the two-week engagements generally. Like, was there any rational things poking holes? There was some rationale going on in my brain, but I think I was so wounded from that last relationship and wanted to feel loved so bad and wanted to be like, fuck it. It's bold to be in love. It's brave to be in love. Stop protecting your heart. Just go with it. But I think that there was a part of my head that was like, this is too fast. And there's an illusion that marriage is a turnkey mooring of yourself to something.

1:03:06Like there is some idea that it's going to be stability, but it's not at all stability. Not at all. And I've never had any model of a marriage that was shown to me that was stable in my life. So I had no idea what the fuck that was. And if you're manic, I mean, that's just like dopamine. So I get you saying yes, that makes total sense. This guy's a fucking babe. He's got his own thing going. When is it proposed? Well, let's do this marriage on the Kardashian show. So basically I'd always talked about how I love Shania Twain. Uh-huh. We love it. Us too. I mean, obsessed. I wrote in my journal as a kid, like still the one is going to be my marriage song.

1:03:43Like once I beat her on American Idol, like I would just lie to my journal all the time and like say crazy shit. But I love Shania Twain. And so then a couple of weeks after the proposal, he's like, we got to get married this weekend. I'm like what no I thought it was going to be like a long Proposal And he's like just trust me on it Okay big surprise Big surprise And you're manic you love surprises I'm like let's jump out of an airplane Let's fucking go Shania Twain was in Vegas that weekend So Shania Twain Performed at my wedding No way I need more of the pieces She's performing in Vegas and you guys are going to go to Vegas?

1:04:27It was that weekend. She had a show there. And the Kardashians were going to be there attending the show and filming? No, Kim's his best friend and doing his hair and she was our hookup with Shania. So they had planned this whole thing and I go to Buffalo Bills, which is so weird. It's where I went every year. I was like an 11, 12-year-old, 13-year-old. I was at my birthday party. My mom loved to gamble. That was our treat was we'd take an RV and go to this place. And I walk in and it's just Kim and Chris and Shania Twain. Do you start crying when you see Shania? Oh, I lose my fucking shit. Sobbing.

1:05:03Yeah. Sobbing. And how did she handle it? Probably pretty well. She was great. Yeah. It was also thoughtful. It was at Buffalo Bill. It was really, yeah, it was thoughtful. Like there's a lot of thoughtful. I think that was a coincidental thing, actually. She just was playing that night at Buffalo Bills. But maybe we'll go with it was thoughtful, yeah. We'll go with it was really thought out. Or sim. No, but I mean the fact that they pulled that off is insane. That literally was a dream come true. By the way, speaking as a love addict, like I understand sex and love addiction. I get it. 100%. It's the best high in the world.

1:05:31Yeah. I lost the other stuff and became addicted to sex and love. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. It's tasty. Keeps working until it doesn't. Then you're scared. I keep gassing you guys up, but I really will say that this show was what made me go to SLA. Really? Whoa. Yeah. Oh my God. That's so nice. Not to keep kissing your ass. No, we'll take it. That's really amazing. Oh, my Lord. Yeah. I think I'm going to retire. No, that's not the right answer. Exactly. You got to keep talking about this stuff. What would my instinct be like? I should stop this. Stop now. I did something that helped you. I should stop this.

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1:07:23Okay, so you meet her. That goes well. You cry. Did she hug you? Yeah, of course. She held me. Kim is amazing. She's great, right? Everyone loves Kim. So generous. Planned this whole thing. Paid for everything. Took care of my family. We're dancing with Usher. It's like a fucking fever dream of like, what is happening? How is this my life? Your mom came? Yeah. So she's having fun and she's got to be nervous for you as well, no? My whole family and all my friends were very nervous for me and very concerned for me while trying to be there for me. And being like, he's happy. He's in love. I know.

1:07:59Got to be there for him. He was very depressed three weeks ago. Yeah. Right after you got out of a facility. Yeah. That's a lot. That's a lot. I think everyone was saying maybe we should just slow the brakes down a little bit. And I was like, fuck you. Yeah. I'm in love. You don't know. No. You don't know what real love is. Yeah. Now this is where I can relate to. It's like on some level, I have this story about me as an addict, which is like I generally didn't put people out. Like I pride myself on that. I didn't owe a bunch of people money. I didn't steal from my friends. You saw from other people.

1:08:29But I thought relatively I had created less wreckage than a lot of the addicts I knew. But what I'm not wanting to acknowledge is like that moment that I'm putting everyone in all the time. It's just like he seems like he's doing really good, but they know I missed my birthday party like a week ago. or he didn't show up for Christmas. You underestimate the toll of that. Like, is he good? He's good? Okay. Yeah. It's a lot. It's a lot. I actually had Claudia say to me at the barbecue we had the other day, like, I was really worried about you for a second. I was really worried we lost you for a minute.

1:09:05Yeah. And just to hear how concerned all my friends were that loved me and adored me. What I would want for you is for you to hear, oh, yeah, you're very loved. but what I would hear is like fuck I'm such a piece of shit I've made these people worry like in the moment that I should be receiving the love I would be self-flagellating for the first time in my life I didn't go to that I went to like god I'm so lucky that I have these people who are my ride or dies who have been through me when I was a shitty friend to them and like went MIA and got married and didn't invite any of them you weren't in charge that's true thank you Monica But also what's so sad about this is like you're doing all this to feel loved.

1:09:48Yeah. Right. But you are loved. You have all these people that are there that are like hardcore there for you. But you can't see that. Yeah. Well, and it doesn't get you high. The real love doesn't get you high. I think it's how I feel about attention and life with acting and stuff. It's like I wanted it so bad and then I got it and I didn't believe anyone and I couldn't accept it. I wanted love. I couldn't accept it. It's sad. Yeah. We live all these paradoxes. Like, yeah, we want this thing. We're going to feel a certain way when we get this thing. We get that thing. It doesn't feel right. We didn't earn it.

1:10:23We don't deserve it. And then I feel worse. And you're like, well, what is the goddamn solution? It's so fucking contradictory. Like, it doesn't make sense. But you're right. Like, I had it in front of me the whole time. And I was just searching out there for something else. We sabotage so much just as people in the search for this thing. you maybe let go of the real thing that's there. And then there's just like, I don't know, you've always been a wild fucking obnoxious dude and I was too. It's like the highs are high. You're chasing high highs. Other people aren't chasing that moment with Shania Twain.

1:10:54100%. And it's like, you know, you read what you sow. It's like, I like it fucking hot and heavy. Let's, you know. And I'll pay the price. But then you get it. And then you're like, what's next? A low low comes after a high high low. Well, the drug stops working as all drugs stop working. You have to come down and then you're withdrawing and then you feel like, what am I going to fill it up with next? Yeah. Okay. So, wow. The only thing I didn't get out of this, when we start filming, the nuptials are on camera. Yeah. I, um, that was a, hmm. Surprise. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Right. Okay. I thought I was going to be talking about the engagement on the phone and then, yeah.

1:11:36And then you were in front of a film crew. Yeah. what was happening in your body while you were left my body not there see you later don't remember what happened blacked out and not even from drugs or alcohol just wasn't there i'll wake up when it's less intense this seems overwhelming i remember i wrote my vows and my notes pad on my phone and then i got up there and they all deleted in my pocket oh my god and this is the only memory i have it's like a true nightmare honestly yeah it is like my nightmare you'd be You're like, I got to wake up from this. Yeah. I got to wake up, wake up, wake up.

1:12:08And I texted my friend, my one friend, Phoebe, who I write with. And I had her proofread it before I went up. And I said, don't make it obvious, but text me my vows right now. And I tried to like play it cool. Oh my gosh. That I didn't have my vows. God, it's so crazy. You can't write this. It's so insane. It's pretty great, too. It's a story. It's so funny. It's such a good chapter in the book of my life. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you wrote all this and I wrote this for attention. My premature memoir. No, I really like it. I like that you're like, I prefer when I've read memoirs of people who don't have it all figured out.

1:12:43And it's like more midway through or whatever. We're on the journey. We're not reflecting on all the lessons we've learned, which I like, too. No, I don't care about that. Let's just start with I'm impressed you finished a memoir. Fucking do. Hardest thing I've ever done. Yeah. So I've been writing one for four years now. And when you're doing a memoir, it's like there's just stuff hovering that you know you're supposed to tell. And it's just like, I can't get motivated to tackle this chapter. What were the hardest ones? Obviously, I would imagine you admitting the diagnosis would be really hard.

1:13:14Yeah, that was really hard. It's like that liability that you're marked with for the rest of your life. And same with the gay shit. It was like, okay, well, then I'm that. And now you're only seen as that. And I'm like, now a gay actor. Now I'm a gay actor with a personality disorder. Holy shit, let's not hire him. Fuck this kid. But then I was really inspired by, you know, like Julia Fox and all these other amazing people that are so honest about it and forthcoming. That was the shit that helped me talk about it and not feel so alone about it. And if we can't be honest and we can't be authentic, what do we have?

1:13:48Well, again, back to the deathbed. Yeah. It's like, dude, are you going to lay there and be like, well, I never was myself. And now it's over. That to me sounds like the nightmare of all nightmares. yeah I'd way rather been like no I was me out loud and a lot of people didn't like it but I found the people that do like it and that's preferred in my opinion yeah it was that that really inspired this book I think the most dishonest part of the book is the title of the book really because I didn't really write it for attention that's the title I wrote this for attention yeah such a good title I love the title the idea came the week that I got the divorce my grandma died and I'm getting confused online as a Nazi because there was a Nazi influencer named Lucas Gage with a C oh no the hits are coming fast and seeing my dad for the first time in 5 or 10 years so I'm like fuck this is the most insane week of my life and all this noise you hadn't seen your dad and then you had to see him immediately after getting divorced yes and with his mom dying oh cause the funeral Yeah.

1:14:50Oh. Lucas, this is a lot. And while I'm doing it, I'm checking Twitter to see what a cheater I am or that I'm a Nazi now. Oh, my God. And I'm like, holy fuck, what have I done with my life? Yeah. And why do I care? And why am I eating into this, like, disgusting attention well of, like, what people that I don't know about me think about me? Why am I like this? Why am I like this? Yeah. That's the question. Why am I like this? That's why it started. That was the whole. and that was going to be the intro of the book and it ended up being the conclusion of the book by the time i was finished but that was where it started so for the people who didn't listen to our bdp episode explain to us what they told you of what borderline personality how did they explain it to you not well if you can feel any resistance that i have about it or any kind of angst when i'm talking about it it's more about the place that i went to they were just It's like you're splitting, which if you don't know what splitting is, it's like you can't see the gray in anything.

1:15:48It's like either you're the love of my life or if you fuck me over, I want you dead and I never want to talk to you again. There's a bunch of weird little sayings to describe BDP. They're either at your feet or your neck. Yep. Right. That's one I just heard from a therapist recently. That's exactly distilled down is like we have a volatile reactive reactions to emotions, I think. And we genuinely, a lot of times put a lot of codependence and importance on one person, which they call like your favorite person. And if that person is the orbit of your whole entire world and just all relationships are very unstable and intense.

1:16:24Another thing that I left out of why I went there is I got really angry when I was having these crying spells and I punched my hand through a window and had to get stitches. So that turned into, he's suicidal. Yeah. Like a 5150 situation. A hundred percent. So it was like self-harm. That was the thing I kept on saying to this facility. You know, they were like out of the nine traits of it, you have all nine. And I'm like, it says I'm suicidal. I don't have that. And they're like, you do. Oh yeah. I don't like that. So it's not that I am pissed off about the diagnosis so much. I'm pissed off about the way that they went about it.

1:17:01The delivery system of the diagnosis. You don't feel like they were listening to you. No, I don't feel like that. Same thing I feel about all these places that were supposed to help kids. It's like you take these vulnerable people, these vulnerable people that are dealing with these intense emotions and stamp them with a label and throw a bunch of drugs at them. And that's it. Yeah. And then tough love them. I don't like it. Yeah. But just a counterpoint, I will say it's also common for someone to go into their first AA meeting. There's like 12 steps, right? And one of them says, God, I'm like, I'm out.

1:17:32It's like, okay, you could be out over the one step or you might be able to like go, oh, these other 11 are pretty salient. So similarly, it's like, yeah, they fucked that up, but maybe they were right about a lot of stuff. They got some of it right. I think a lot of the traits were right. The one I've experienced with people who have not self-identified as that to me, but I have had a few different friendships where it does seem like they think I am better than I am. like supernatural, right? They're looking at me like I have some kind of answer to something profound. You find that with your friends that had.

1:18:06That I think have had it. I felt people idolize me. And then I have felt what seemed to me be like these barrage of little tests that keep mounting up. It's like, well, then are you going to meet me here? There's so much weight to it all. And I just become self-conscious of the fact these are tests that I'm not passing. And it feels like a test. And then I have been accused by a good friend of like, you're trying to destroy me. And I'm like, what does that even mean? That's not even something someone could do. Like, what do you mean destroy you? Like, I'm not hurting you. I'm not around your plate.

1:18:39I think that's like the splitting. I don't hire. Yeah. Like, that's fantastical that I can destroy you. Just the premise of it. Yeah. Also, I'm not. And I love you. Right. So I've had that personal experience. Is it me? No. Is it me? Did I say that? Sometimes I do really like that. You did like me a lot more than you like me now, but I think it's all within the realm. It's all in the normal realm. I think that's a good way of putting it, though. There is a real Jackal and Hyde situation going on with it. Yeah, so what I love in this show has been this great gift to us. Again, I keep bringing this up, but it was so profound.

1:19:12We interviewed a dude a couple weeks ago who's schizophrenic and tried to kill his dad. We read a lot about schizophrenics or schizophrenic episodes and what happens, but it's never from the person who's experiencing it. And I'm like, I'm so genuinely curious. That's amazing. Yeah. So can you relate to those highs and lows of thinking someone's really special and then. 100%. Yeah. Like they are my world, the most important thing. I'm the most codependent. They're my life. They're everything to me. Their validation, their acceptance. It's only important if it's coming from them. Your worth is connected to them.

1:19:44My whole entire worth. So much so that I self-abandon myself and my work and everything else and all the important other things in my aspect like family and friends and become a shit brother a shit son a shit friend because that is so important that's the unifying aspect of all of these things yeah which is you look at addiction and you go okay the addict is escaping their life through this substance yeah the codependent in the system is also escaping their life by focusing on the addicts life and then this condition is escape like it's funny that we got all these labels for these conditions but it's like we're all trying to fuck off on all the shit we don't want to deal with and we'll find a road to do it an obsession or is acting like some are really bad and some aren't some are personality disorders and some are this and it's like nice thing humans like if they find something that will distract them from the shit that drives them nuts it's gonna be an appealing option now is there any voice you're smart so is there any voice while that kind of ramp up obsessions happening about the person are there any bells going off it's like you're doing it now now but not before no because it feels good feels good you get a high from it i don't party anymore so that's my high yeah but i have to catch myself as much as i hated it that i did this thing called dialectical behavioral therapy yeah i've heard about this fucking hated it so much it just feels like elementary weird work of like checking in with your senses and holding ice cubes if you're upset or really taking inventory about what's going on.

1:21:15And it feels like so lame when you're doing it, but then I do it in life now. So I see the merit in it. I check myself and I'm like, Oh, you're idolizing this person. Oh, you're wanting to do that thing where they're your whole world and you're ready to drop everything. Or another end, like if my friend hurts my feelings and I crumble if people don't like me, I crumble if they say anything that's critical. Instead of lashing out and going like, fuck you, I hate you and all this stuff. I'm like, I check myself I'm doing that thing again am I splitting or do they just care about me right that you it takes I mean I still have moments but I think the recovery time before it would take me a couple months to realize that I was being crazy then I went down to a week then I went down to a day then I went down to like I can check myself within like 30 seconds and be like I'm so sorry I was doing that thing that I do yeah this is not about you yeah yeah yeah that's amazing growth Yeah, please extend me a little patience.

1:22:09Get my arms around this thing. How did you get turned on to the dialectical? That was one of the things that I feel like I'm really ragging on this place. There was eight hours of therapy every day and a lot of it I hated and a lot of it I resented. And the one that I hated the most was the thing that I love the most now was the DBT groups. Okay, DBT groups. Yeah, dialectical behavioral therapy group. So how will that work? It's a group meeting. Group meeting. It's similar to AA, actually. It's similar to all these kind of meetings. And I don't know, I feel like that's when it really clicked for me, where I was like, we have so much in common.

1:22:46We have so much overlap. And as much as I hate this thing and resist it, there's got to be a reason that we have 99 % of the same exact story here. Yeah, this is too coincidental. It's a little too coincidental. So that really chilled me out. And doing that group stuff where I could kind of commiserate with other people that had it, how stupid it was. Yeah. That helped me. There was a community. This is, I think, the great magic of the program is if you're telling me what's wrong with me and what I need to do, it's just a dead end street. Yep. But if I can just observe someone being honest about what they're going through, I can find myself in them.

1:23:26That's exactly it. It's so powerful. And it takes away all the defensiveness. It's why I like even popping into SLA and popping into AA. I don't necessarily think I'm an alcoholic, but there's moments where I'm in there where I'm like, oh, that's like 90 % of my life and what it could be if one thing changed, you know? That affects me way more than going to a place and having them just tell me what I am and give me a bunch of meds. Yeah, for sure. Me too. I'll regret saying this because you're going to explain it. I'm going to feel stupid for saying it. But I do feel like a group therapy for BDP has a unique set of risks in the same way that SLA does.

1:24:04Like when you first hear about SLA or slalom, you're like, hold on, a bunch of sex acts are going to get together and help themselves recover. This sounds like a recipe for disaster. Won't everyone just be fucking in the bathroom? Like that is kind of your first thought. Yeah, yeah. So is there any risk in that group? God, it would be fun though. It would be fun. Like this big daisy chain of he's the savior. Who thinks he's the savior? Who thinks he's the savior? I'm going to probably get in trouble for saying this, but I don't think it's much different than sitting on set with a bunch of actors.

1:24:32A lot of them are undiagnosed with personality disorders. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. I don't know if there's danger in it. I think it'd be beneficial. It depends on where you're at, but I think it'd be really fun. Yeah. Okay. You could say the same thing with AA. Like, isn't everyone just going to go get drunk afterwards? Yeah. That's why I'm admitting that I know it's a flawed question, but also I also am being honest about the fact that it gives me anxiety that all the people with the same condition. Do you feel that when you go to AA? Like a little bit of that anxiety? I go to very few public meetings, but I used to go to a ton.

1:25:03I mostly go to dudes' houses, but I'm judgmental still. So I definitely will be looking around the room and I'll spot two turkeys that I'm like, oh, these two are definitely relapsed together. Like, you know, these like like they're pairing off because, again, you can bond over like this is kind of a joke. That feels good. It's like being in the back of a classroom. And then, you know, only a couple sentences between this place is a joke to let's go get fucked up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true. Dudes do go out together. But in general, no, it's very low percentage that that's happening. I would say I want to add one thing on to what you asked about that group.

1:25:36Yeah. I think it would be really good because the person that I was and how much my symptoms were showing at that area in time is completely different than the person that's sitting here in this chair. So to put those people in the same room that are all on different levels or whatever the fuck you want to call it, I think they could learn a lot from each other, honestly. That makes sense. Well, and again, that's another magical component of it is you're providing so much service to the other dudes there that are further along in their recovery to be reminded. Oh, yeah, man. I know when I first got my diagnosis, you know, I was a nightmare.

1:26:10I think it was a nightmare. You're just reminded of the chaos in that person's life. And it's so helpful to keep you on the path. Right. It's like when you're in AA and that person gets their one month token and you're like, oh, God, I remember. Or the most valuable thing is the dude who relapses and comes in and tells us the amount of shame he's got right now and how ugly it was immediately as it always is. You know, that's the most helpful thing. Not the dude that's like celebrating 35 years. 100%. Right. Now that you have had that and you have had success with therapy from it, do you feel compelled when you meet a new dude to be like, hey, so you should know I have this or not?

1:26:50Yeah, I do, actually. And a lot of times they're like, what are you talking about? They're hearing that for the first time, right? Yeah. Yeah. And they're like, I've never noticed anything. And then in my head, I'm like, maybe I don't have it anymore. Maybe I'm cured. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think as much as I hate the labels of things, I think it's helpful for other people, the labels and contextualizing what it is and having them look it up and Google like, what the fuck does he mean? He does this splitting thing sometimes and to be aware of it. You didn't define splitting enough for me. Yeah, I got it.

1:27:19It's the either idolizing or change. Yeah, the two extremes. It's kind of like what you said about that at your feet or at your neck. They go hand in hand with each other. But I think it can be helpful. Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine ever. I never did meet a girl that I didn't immediately say I'm an addict. So I'm going to do weird shit. I get up and I journal and I meditate, you know, and I'm going to go to meetings. That's who you are. Yeah, there's no hiding this. Also, it's not going to work with someone who doesn't accept it and know it. Yeah, you just know right away, like I probably should tap out now.

1:27:46Exactly. But the shame level is much higher for you. I want to recognize. I mean, I want to be honest about that. It's like in the many things that people can admit to, like addiction is fine now. If you're in the closet, I'll be an addict. That's like a very 70s thing. Totally. Catch up. SLA is still trickier. That's tricky for people. And then to say BDP, these are still things that are like you're the vanguard of that. You're brave to do that. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. We did it at the same exact time. Whoa. Sorry. Say that again. Mine was a door burn and it just won't. I don't know how to turn that chirp off.

1:28:20It's on Do Not Disturb. Yeah. Is that your shirt? I don't know. Monica's going on a date tonight. Oh, my God. And she's getting a special shirt. You are? For the date. Isn't that fun? I love that. Where's the shirt from? YSL. Oh, hot. Yeah. It's a cute shirt. Where are you going on a date? Where is he taking it? Little doms. Okay. That's a good first date spot. It's good. It's good. Chill. Dark. I was there yesterday. On another date? No, just with my friend Jess. And I'm not going to say that. Okay. Yeah, because that feels like, well, this is special then. Yeah. You were here 12 hours ago. Yeah.

1:28:54You're going to be back tomorrow. You need the same thing. Unless the waitress from the night before is your same. I do go there a lot. So I do worry. Like, they're like, Monica. And he's like, oh, how often do you come here? I'm like, oh. That's good, though. I guess. I don't know. I don't want to think about it. Just your insecurities talking. I don't want to think about it. And no matter what, it's going to be bad. Yeah. Exactly. They're like, Monica, you're our favorite customer ever. Oh, fuck. It's over. Yeah. You're always so generous and we love having you. Oh, fuck. This is going to hang on.

1:29:23So anyways, I sincerely want to say thank you, dude. I love when people go first and they hear you say those things you said to me. I hope they're said to you. You deserve it. I think it's much bolder for you to come out and do that. Thanks, man. OK, let's talk about voicemails for Isabel. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm here. This is your new project. I saw it. You did? What'd you think? I loved it. I'm a rom-com sucker. Yeah. I normally don't watch the movie or read the book or do anything on purpose so that there's like an objective, you know, whatever for cutting, but it popped up on my Netflix and I was like, oh shit.

1:29:59And you really need to know, cause I don't want you to be on my neck over this. I won't. I watch people's shit. Yeah. He does. I went last night to watch it. I told my family, I can't hang the night. I have research to do. I'm watching this movie. I go to my Netflix preview content. it was not there. Oh, shit. Maybe it was like an expired link. So this is a crazy blessing because she never watches it. I always watch it. In this case, I couldn't. Reverse back. And she did. Whoa. So you tell him. Yeah, I loved it. I thought it was so, well, I don't know how much premise can get told. The premise we can tell.

1:30:27I watched the trailer. I did what I could do. But yeah, this girl, Zoe Deutsch, who I love. We just love Zoe. Love her. She's the best. She has a sister who has passed and she keeps calling the sister's phone and leaving her these kind of confessional voice memos. And then the number gets reassigned to, thank God, a gorgeous dude. Gorgeous. I obviously looked him up as soon as, I was like, who is this guy? Did he make you horny? Of course. Yeah, he's hot. He's hot. But it's so sweet. I cried multiple times and I'm pretty dead inside. Yeah, so it did get me. Zoe's so good. All of you guys are so good in it.

1:31:09Everyone's so natural. and it's a rom-com. I know. We need more rom-coms. We're bringing them back. And it makes me so happy. It makes me so happy. I feel the same way. I cried when I read it on the plane and I was like, oh shit, this one's good. Yeah. This one's good. It is. You're so funny in it. You played a dick. Listen, I played a dick and a dumbass. Fuck, that's all I get. That's all they see me as. I've got an anchor here in Los Feliz. So you're doing just fine. I'll take an anchor and playing a dick. Typecasting is still casting. It's funny. It's a funny character. Yeah, it's a funny, different kind of version of that character.

1:31:44But it's so good. And Nick Offerman's hilarious in it. I couldn't stop laughing all day on set with him. Yeah, I love that movie. I think it's going to be a big hit. You know what I like about it a lot, too, is the main character is fucked up and unlikable at certain moments. Like, I miss rom-coms like How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days and Never Been Kissed, where they're a little deceitful and they have a secret. Yeah. maybe they're doing some light stalking that was very popular that was cool it was hot it's all a lose by the way she's kind of horrible in that movie but you love her and that's Zoe's ability to make an unlikable character the best she's like Kristen in that way they can play very unlikable she's like I just killed your mom and you're like you're so cute I'm like oh my god I bet you look so cute they have that similar quality but you just watch her forever.

1:32:40She's so good. I love her. Watch it, guys. It's really, really good. For Isabel on Netflix, I just saw this note Rob wrote, 340 Hard Out. I fucked that up. I'm so sorry. I hope you're in big, big trouble. Four o 'clock. I'm good. You're good? I have accent training for Prison Break. Tell me about Prison Break. We're redoing Prison Break. You are? Yeah. I start on Monday. You do? And are you a prisoner? I'm not. I'm outside of the prison. Oh, okay And what's your accent? West Virginia Oh, boy Yeah Pretty Apoeliche Hillbilly Yeah Very demon copperhead Yeah I'm rereading that right now That's a good idea Yeah I'm watching Buckwild Right now on MTV It's like the Jersey Shore Of West Virginia Oh, my God It's so good I would love that Did they go mud bogging?

1:33:25Oh, every day Yeah It's insane I would do well In West Virginia We did the pilot there I've never felt hotter In my life Yeah Like a five in LA 10 in West Virginia yeah yeah yeah what is that on what is the prison it's gonna be in Hulu oh it is yeah it's gonna be in Hulu that's exciting beautiful that'll be fun well listen dude you're gonna have a wonderful ride that means a lot coming for me you're very fucking talented you're very honest and you're very likable you're working on yourself that's all we can do I'm working on myself thank you guys for what you do I'm not kidding I listen to three podcasts for one of three oh well thank you that's very fine keep doing what you're doing if you ever shave it down to one I hope we make the cut you will make the cut I promise alright well I adore you thank you I adore you guys Just a quick reminder that as part of our summer break, here's a rerun of one of our favorite fact checks.

1:34:14Pretty good stuff. Pretty good. Pretty great station. Really great station. Hey, y 'all. Really great station. I wish I could find that actual clip. By the way, you can't because it's going to sound nothing like it and then it's going to be sad. They played it so frequently on this Atlanta radio station that they had it recorded. It wasn't like someone called and said, I mean, someone did originally call and say that. Yeah. They knew it was great. Hey, y 'all, really great station. I wonder. Station. I wonder if Newman would remember the radio station. Should we try to cold call him and see? Oh, sure.

1:34:52Yeah, this is high risk. Let's see.

1:34:58I wonder if it was B98.5. Hello? Hi, you're on the radio, if that's okay. Is that okay? Oh, boy. Okay. I won't say where you work. You know, I'm obsessed with when you and I were riding around in your Suzuki, Azuzu, your trooper. Azuzu. Azuzu trooper, red, in Georgia. And you listen to the same radio. Well, maybe you listen to a lot of radio stations. But as you know, I'm obsessed still with that one gal. They played the clip of her all the time and say, hey, y 'all, really great station. Hey, y 'all. Y 'all, really great station. Oh, so you remember station. I remember station. This is already much.

1:35:45I guess what we're what we're really looking for is do you remember what station you listen to down there? That's a tough question. Star 94, B98.5. Can you hear Monica? Yell it B98.5 Star 94 I want to say it was country 95.5 the beat I want to say it was country wasn't it I'm not sure that it was 96.1 96.1 That sounds country She says that sounds country Sounds like it's on the country The accents everybody was Hey y 'all Power 96.1 Power 96.1? Does that sound familiar? It would have been it. Because we're going to do our best. We're going to deploy all resources to see if we can get the clip of that woman saying really great station.

1:36:36We can find out whether it was really great station or really great station. It was like an advertisement for the station that played over and over. And that's why I got done. Like, it finally just sunk into my mind. Yeah. And you helped get me there. Like, we were in your Azuzu Trooper, and it came on, and you said along with her. Which let me know it wasn't the first time you heard it, and then you loved it. And then now I've loved it for 30 years. I need to do a little research. Where were we in Georgia? Were we in Athens, or were we up in northeast Georgia? When you and Aaron lived in the mobile home.

1:37:12Okay, so we were at the trailer. Yeah. You call it a trailer, I call it a mobile home. Was it Macon? No, Macon was close, though. Macon County was the next county over, right? Macon, no. So, Hall, there was White County, Hall County. Hall, yeah. You guys were really close to that little German town, weren't you? Helen. Yes, we were 20 miles from Helen. We were just like right on the edge of the hills. You had to drive into the hills to get to Helen. And you were right on the hooch, right? The hoochie. Well, the mobile home was not on the hooch. There was a crick that ran through it. Okay, your memory was a mess.

1:37:50Well, I do remember that you and I got into the hooch. You had dropped something, your wallet or a watch. What did you lose in the hooch? And we had to get it. A Zippo lighter. Oh, you had to get it. That's what it was, a Zippo lighter. Had to be gotten. Yeah, the hoochie was screaming when you jumped. All right. I love you. Thanks for helping. If you think you nailed down the radio station, let me know so I can do something. Yeah, sure, too. And if I'm saying 96.1, I'm wrong. I'm wrong because that was going to be at them. That would have been Athens Yeah This one was probably a country station Yeah I'll do some research Okay Love ya Alright Talk to you soon Talk to you later Bye bye Yeah He doesn't know This is what I was afraid of Dead end kind of No His recollection of it is Much different than yours I wanna play you a song A song?

1:38:48Yeah Wait on yonder on the Chittahoochee Hotter than a hoochie coochie Okay, well, I guess I don't have to play it. Is that what you're about to play? I can sing along the whole... I know all the words. AJ, baby. Alan Jackson. Woo! Hey, y 'all. Really great station. Come on.

1:39:16Hey, y 'all. Really great station. And this is Alan Jackson with his hit, Way Down Yonder. Way down yonder on the Chattahoochee, it gets hotter than a hoochie coochie. We laid rubber on the Georgia asphalt, got a little crazy but we never got caught. Down by the river on a Friday night, pyramid of cans and a pale moonlight. Talking about cars and dreaming about women, never had a plan just living for the minute. You do know what I mean. Hey, y 'all, way down yonder on the Chattahoochee. And how much that muddy water meant to me. Hey, y 'all, really great station. Oh, my gosh. I learned who I was.

1:39:55A lot about living and a little about love. Yahoo! Wow. High station. Okay. Okay. That was... You really do know all the words. I'm impressed. Oh, yes. How do you know all the words? You're not even from Georgia. When those two moved from Detroit down to fucking rural Georgia, I would go down there and they became obsessed with country. And then that's where all the Hank senior and junior and Waylon all started as those two moving to the, you know, the sticks. My home. Yeah. And being right next to the hooch. Right. But I'm just so surprised, you know, all the lyrics. I know all the lyrics of all the country songs of that era.

1:40:37Probably 96, seven. You probably didn't drive around enough with me when you because we were newly friends. but when you came over to the house that we were staying at in Georgia, when Kristen was working on bad mom, we were next to the hooch. We crossed it every time we drove into anywhere. Yeah. It's it's everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. But I would play it for the girls every time we left the house because we'd be passing the hooch and I took Lincoln down to the hooch and she, this is a famous story. She bit me on my shoulder and went through my shirt and my skin. Yeah, it was the only time she ever assaulted me.

1:41:16Wait, really? Yeah. Because of the hooch, the water? Yes, we were on the hooch and there were these cement steps down and probably to get into a canoe or something. And she was little, if you remember. Because she was like under two years old. She was probably. Delta was three months. Yeah. So she was probably two years and one month. Yeah. And I was letting her walk around the steps and she's a daredevil. So she wanted to get in the water, but it was freezing cold. And the current of the hooch at that time of year was swift. Yeah. And so I went and grabbed her right as she was about to step into the water and picked her up.

1:41:53And she was so pissed I had intervened. She bit my shoulder. Yeah. She clamped down with her two new little brand new teeth. Really great station. Really great bite. Oh, my God. Wow. Yeah. So I came home and I was like really ticked off. I told Kristen like she bit through my You were mad at her? It's evil you don't like bite a human being She's a baby Oh my god You know what my 5th grade school was? Hattahoochee High? Chattahoochee Elementary Same thing Chattahoochee Elementary That's great on the hooch Did you call it the hooch? No I called it Chattahoochee Elementary But I mean the river Oh I mean yeah people called it that Did you ever go down to the hooch and drink Pyramid of Cannon?

1:42:38Listen, listen to me. What? Chattahoochee River is everywhere. I know. It's like four minutes down the street from my parents' house. Yeah, so why don't you go down there and put a pyramid of cans up in the pale moonlight? Because no one does that. Did you lay rubber on a Georgia asphalt? I mean, I went tubing in Helen. You did? A lot. Well, like four times. Wow. Yeah. That's exciting. Guess what? I didn't almost drown. Oh. Is this an area of grievance? Yeah. Then I gotta let that go. Yeah, because I guess it's evidence that it wasn't my fault. Like, I know how to traverse a tube. I've done it.

1:43:18Yeah, sure. But the Austin River was much. They got you. Got me. Yeah, that was the San Marcos River. Way down yonder on the San Marcos River. Tipped in my tube and my top got loose. Oh.

1:43:36formula one drivers coming over behind me oh that was about me yeah yeah yeah my top did got a little crazy but you didn't get caught i think i did get caught unfortunately But fortunately for the catchers Anywho You're disappointed for sure That I said it was fine And rightly so It had changed The waterfall we went over Used to be a gentle little A cement paved thing They tore it out and made natural with big rocks And that got a little crazy So you're disappointed in me about that Rightly so I'm not actually But my response was on the I was right there You always want to get to the response Well, I want you to have felt like I was willing to die for you.

1:44:32I was willing to kill you and die for you. That's something, isn't it? Listen, you didn't mean for that to happen. Oh my God, that was, no. So I have no, I went over first with my child, as you recall. But you are more equipped. But holding my child. So she, she's more equipped than me. She was a little roughed up like you were. but if you recall like I was dealing with her and I had to put her on the rock and go and then I said it turned my attention because I knew you were coming over and I was like nervous but you didn't come in you didn't have to so that I could respond can you imagine if I had died that day well like I mean I can if you'd like I can sit here and try to imagine it but that's to me like saying what if you got hit over the head with a falling bit of debris from a building while we were in Austin it's like I can't see you dying in that situation at all I mean.

1:45:23We were all right there. I was like waiting to leap in, but you got yourself out of the water really quick. But if I drowned. But I don't know how you could have, because I was watching you come over. I watched you tip over, pop right up, and go right to the rock. Yeah, that's what happened. But had you tipped over and like you weren't popping up, I would have been jumping in and grabbing you. I know, but by then I could have filled my lungs with water. That's too fast. Yeah, that's just too fast. I could have swallowed a lot of water. And I would have pulled you out on the thing and then started chest compressions after I fixed your top for you.

1:45:57I couldn't do chest compressions. You would not have fixed it. No, ethically, I couldn't have done. You would have been like the armchair anonymous guy. I couldn't touch your boobs to save your life. I mean, I just have to. What do you mean? Well, I'd have to have Molly cover your boobs and then start chest compressions. There's no time for that. Oh, my God. With her hands. She has to get across the river. Molly, she's drowning. Come over here. I need to start chest compressions. I can't press on her boobs. That's the time you can see my boobs. And press on them? Yeah. Okay. But press on them?

1:46:30Leave press on? If it's to save my life, I assume everyone would be okay with that. I guess that's how the people in your pyramid squad felt. That they had to catch you by the pussy to save your life. They did have to. And I'm grateful. Yeah. We thanked them for it. That's such an old reference. I bet a lot of people listen don't even know that. New listeners? Yeah. Tell people. Well, just when you were explaining that you were a high flyer and that you'd get caught and you even showed me some pictures and I said, clearly some people must have accidentally caught you by the vagina. And you said, yes.

1:47:00Well, and that's not the phrasing you used. Well, it escalated from there to catch him by the pussy. Yeah. Yeah. Which is kind of a callback. No, it was, again, way more perverse than this. You were talking about boys on the squad. Sure. Because we had boys on our squad. It was a co-ed squad. Teen boys. Teen boys. Catching high flyers by the pussy. It seems crazy, yeah. So much of that Porus Walker, our friend artist. Well, I commissioned, yes. Yes, yes, yes. A beautiful piece of art of a young Monica being caught by the pussy.

1:47:37It was an interactive piece of art, because you pulled down. Yes. You pulled me down. So that I'm catching you. That's gonna be worth like$10 million one day, because Porus Walker's a genius. You know what, I don't. Oh, don't even say that. Wow. Don't say that. No, no, I do. I do. I have all this art that I moved to the house. Okay. So it's all in the garage. Where the hobos are sleeping and peeing. But that worries me. Me too. I really went to the ends of the earth to get that for you. Listen to me. Now I have a grievance. What am I supposed to do? It should be hanging on your wall proudly. I don't have space.

1:48:12Especially when your brother and your dad visit. They got to see that. Ding, ding, ding. Chatta hooch. Yeah. Hoochie cooch. Georgia, go Dawgs. Georgia, go Dawgs. Roll Tide. How dare you? It's part of it. Stop. Well, you guys got the last laugh. You know, I almost wrote that in one of my posts, and then I thought, that is such bad luck, I cannot do that. You almost wrote Roll Tide? Because it's our joke. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I thought, what am I doing? Can I say this? It's such bad luck that I've been saying Roll Tide the whole time, and they went undefeated. That's how bad of luck it was to say Roll Tide.

1:48:43We don't know what's going to happen. They're 14 and 0. What if we have a national championship we're about to vote? But I've been saying Roll Tide for the last nine games. What if it was to get us to this point just to get defeated? Oh, God, this is a complicated superstition. Just to get defeated. You do taunt them along the ride, but then when they get to the championship, no more Roll Tide. Exactly. My brother and dad are going to the game here in Los Angeles. Yes. They'll be here Sunday night, Monday night for the game and leave Tuesday. Quick trip. Quick, quick trip. Quick trip. The night, the game's the night.

1:49:164.30 p.m. 4.30, we'll be recording. Yes, we will. No, you'll be out in time for the watch the game. Anyway, I'm really excited for them. Me too. I hope they have a lot of fun. I had an incredibly fine moment as a dad a few days ago. Ding, ding, ding, dads. Lincoln came up to me and said, hey, I really want to go to that NASCAR race at the Coliseum again this year. Can we go? Can we go? You better believe we'll go. She asked me to take her to a car race, Monica. That's exciting. So we're going to go. Fun. Yeah. That's great. The clash in the Coliseum. Wow. This is the one in Rome? No, our Coliseum.

1:50:01Wobby Wobby. They don't do NASCAR races in Rome yet. They're doing every other thing. We should have some host a race in the attic. That's how small the Coliseum is. That reminded me of it. When I was home, my dad reminded me. Oh, speaking of children. There's 150 of them just piled out of my Roadmaster station wagon. Why'd you have to drive that? Too many kids for her car. There's a party bus? Oh, it's a play date. Don't ignore me when she has friends over. She ignores everyone when she got friends over. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

1:50:48Okay, I don't remember how this came up, but my dad was recalling me learning how to ride a bike. Oh, boy. And I have some memories of this, too, but I think I've blocked a lot out, and now I know why. Okay. Because there's trauma around it. Not shocked. Let's hear it. because per use, I was way too old to be learning how to ride a bike. I was seven. Okay, yeah. And so my dad wanted to teach me or help me or whatever. He was like, let's, you know, we're going to do it in the driveway. And I said, no, absolutely not. I will not be seen. The whole reason I'm needing to ride a bike is because everyone in the same place, This was in Memphis.

1:51:40We had just moved to Memphis. And everyone in the neighborhood rode bikes. That's like how you hung out. Yes. And I didn't know how. So I was like, I got to learn how. And he's OK. And then we go in the driveway. And I was like, I'm not doing that. And then also I refused to wear a helmet, apparently. Well, that's natural. You don't want to look like a dork. Right. You're a fucking geek. He then, which this part was sad, he was like, I probably put it on too tight. Uh-oh. I was like, no, I don't think. Maybe. But also I think I just did. You would have let him know if it was too tight. Yeah, I would have screamed at him.

1:52:11Yes, yeah. So I took it upon myself to learn how to ride a bike in the garage. Closed garage? That can't be done. In the closed garage. Okay, that can't be done. No, the cars were removed. And then my dad said, he said. He was just written in the wall. He said, he came home from work and he said, I said, where's Monica? And mom said, she's out there writing. No. And I went out there and you were just going like. And encircling the garage. Just going in little circles in the garage. That's great. That would have made you a pretty advanced writer right out of the gates. He was very impressed when he was retelling this story.

1:52:58He was like, I couldn't believe it. Yeah. And so he didn't teach you how. You just went in the garage and figured it out. He just kept trying. Oh my God. In circles. Oh my God. So insolent. No, that is the power of needing to fit in. Oh, sure. Yes. I will get in the garage by yourself. That's impossible. Yeah, you can't learn to ride a bike in a garage because you're learning while turning. Yeah, that's the hardest part. Yeah, there's no straightaways. And then you hopped out in the neighborhood and pedaled your little bike around. And I rode all the time with my friends. No helmet. Oh, fun. No, I'm sure I did have to wear a helmet.

1:53:40That wasn't a thing when I was a kid. Yeah, maybe not. There was zero. No one had a helmet. While we were talking about this, Neil was there too, listening to this. And he said, and then I just took Neil out, like, onto some parking lot. And then he just immediately knew how to do it. Wow. And I said, that's us. The Padmans. That's indicative of who we are. Like, I can't really do it. Uh-huh. But I'm going to just like by sheer will. Yes. Claw your way into doing it. Make something happen. And he has a ton of talent. Yeah. Just a natural. But he doesn't care. Yeah. He wouldn't have gone in the garage.

1:54:19No. Gone in circles. No. He wouldn't have. Anyway, I thought that was funny. That's very funny. Well, that's it. That's everything. It's not. That's the whole thing. It's not. Now, listen, I'm glad to report that your expensive rain boots made it through to a second season. I know. Sometimes I worry when you get these things like how many wares are you going to get out of them? They'll probably be obsolete next year because fashion moves like a speeding bullet. And here you are in the same ones. They look great. And I'm glad to see that they're here. Two things. One, these are not that expensive.

1:54:53Okay. Two. This was from two seasons. I got these before London. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Great. So we're on season three of these. So I'm good at wearing my clothes. Those are great. They're orange. Speaking of, I'm wearing my sweater that Rob gave me mixed messages. And you're sitting next to the painting that Rob commissioned, which I'm staring at too. So Rob's really getting a lot of mileage out of his presence. He is. Okay. This is for Anna Kendrick. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. Great episode. Really honored that she felt comfortable and that she loves our show so much. Me too. It's really sweet. It's funny because we recorded the intro yesterday.

1:55:34Remember I said I felt like I should reach out? And then I was like, why didn't I reach out? And then I was like, well, because no one's going to read Instagram. So then last night I actually reached out. And she responded. Okay, so what? I haven't talked to her yet, but I'm going to. Wait, what? I thought you said you reached out. Yeah, basically saying I want to chat with you. Oh, got it. Well, I did want to say that she reached out to me after she reached out actually before the interview, which was awesome, saying she was excited and that I know it had taken a while for us to be able to get this up and go because it was years ago that I originally reached out and that we were going to do this.

1:56:17And then it took a while for her to be able to really. Yeah. So, yeah. So she reached out about that. And then after she was really sweet and said that, you know, she hopes it was a good episode and that there was enough. And then she said, and I do think it's important that I say this, she said that she had been thinking about the interview a lot and particularly the portion where we were talking about gaslighting. And she wanted to make clear that she was sorry if anything she said minimized my experience and that she is used to lending a lot of compassion towards the addict. And sometimes that comes at the expense of the person who is harmed.

1:57:08She said like including herself. And then she said, which I thought was really important. like it was important to me to hear. She basically said, I commend you for sticking up for yourself, even if it was going to make other people uncomfortable. Right. And that meant a lot that she said that because that is hard to do. Yeah. Because gaslighting is tricky, right? Like you already wonder, that's built into it. A wondering of what's real and what's not and how big of a deal is this. So then when that gets questioned, it's like repeating that cycle of, wait, but maybe it's not. Or, you know, it's just doing that all over again.

1:57:57Yeah. Anyway, so I thought it was very generous and lovely of her to say that. No, she's incredibly lovely. Also, a postscript, she went in afterwards and met Kristen and it was. Oh, yeah. Yeah. How was it? We talked about, you know, that Kristen was jealous. It was good. Kristen got to say to her face, I'm just jealous of how talented you are. It was very sweet. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Okay. She was right about Maine. It does have the oldest population percentage-wise in the United States. Yes. Higher than Florida. Then Florida. Then, do you want to guess the third? Oldest state? Mm-hmm. Arizona?

1:58:39No, but good guess. West Virginia. Oh, interesting. Old people. A lot of these numbers might be affected by like, what state do young people move out of the most? Yeah, for sure. This is age 65 or older. And this was as of 2020. You have the full list there? Oh, yeah, I have the full list. Maine was number one. Number three is West Virginia. Number two? Florida. Oh, Florida is number two. Oh, okay, great. So number four was what we'd be guessing for.

1:59:12Wyoming. No. Vermont. Yeah, I wouldn't have guessed that. Yeah, none of these are that guessable. Arizona's not until 12. Oh my God. I would have expected that much higher. Yeah, me too. Do you want to know what 50 is? Yes. Utah. Sure. That's obvious. Really? Because Mormons have so many kids. So there's got to be probably per capita, to more young kids per capita in Utah than any other state. That's interesting. Okay, also Georgia is 47. That's young. Let's find Michigan. Michigan. Michigan is 14. It's 14 oldest. Okay, pretty old. That's good. Yeah, it's pretty old. It's 18.2%. Old. You think it's good?

2:00:00I don't know. Anytime there's a list and there's a number one, you gotta assume number one's the best. Okay, that's fair. Oldest is the best. Okay. Maine is the best and then Utah is the worst in this specific case. Yeah, in this shootout. Yeah. I'd like to compare mean ages of life expectancy state to state because I bet there's some wild variation even within the country. Yeah, Rob, look that up, please. Like, I think in Mississippi, life expectancy is much lower than, say, New York. I got it. You got it? Yep. Okay. Hit us with something. This is in 2019. List of U.S. states and territories by life expectancies.

2:00:38So let's hit me with the life expectancy of New York. New York is 81.4 years. That feels old. Now hit me with Mississippi. Mississippi, 74.9. Big difference. That is big. Seven year difference. Can you kind of scroll through and see what the lowest is? 51 is West Virginia, 74.8. Oh, my God. and it's the third oldest. And they're not living very long. That's weird. That is weird. What's number one life expectancy? Number one, Hawaii, 82.3. Oh, wow. Then California. Oh, congratulations, everybody. Congrats, LA. Well done. I'm going to guess, Georgia. Okay. 79.4. 77.9. Number 39. That's not that good.

2:01:31That's not that good. That's a good Southern cooking. A good, yummy Southern deep fried cooking. True. Or how about this? Here's a positive spin. Okay. They're in a bigger rush to meet Jesus. Oh. That makes sense too. Okay. It always confuses me. Truly, I'm not saying this in a condescending way. I feel like if I was a full blown Christian, I believe lock, stock and barrel that I was going to go to heaven and meet Jesus. Yeah. I'd be in a hurry to get there. That's the part I don't really understand. No, because you still have family. It's like, there's still people on earth that you, you're still a person.

2:02:02No, no kids or family. Their family's like, all right. I'm a person with no kids or family and I still like living. But you're not a Christian. I know, but I like living on earth. Like even if I thought, oh, I'll get to go. But why would you? If there's a much better place. It's kind of like, it's like, you know that Emily Burger's next to your house, okay? And then you have some old ground chuck in your fridge and you choose to make a burger when you could go next door to Emily. I don't know. Heaven's way better. I'll prove comparison. I don't see. This is crazy. Listen, Kevin's better than the US of A.

2:02:37But you're going to be there for eternity. So you still want to live your life here with people you care about. Also, it doesn't require kids and a spouse to have loving relationships that you want to keep up. Sure. And enjoy. No, I wasn't trying to demean anyone without. Well, I'm saying. I understand wanting to stick around and see your kids. like hit milestones yeah but i want to stick around just to enjoy life but me and aaron were christians and i believe all in i'd be like buddy let's get up there and ride dirt bikes in heaven like let's go to the better place that'd be me if i knew there was a better place i want to be in the better place all the time i moved to california because i thought it was a better place to do the things I want.

2:03:26Like, I'll go to wherever is better. I ain't trying to sit somewhere that's less good. Well, you don't get to go if you kill yourself. I know, but eating fried chicken all day every day isn't killing yourself, technically, according to Jesus or smoking cigarettes. That won't keep you out of heaven. No. So I could like drink hard, smoke cigarettes, eat KFC, and then go do wheelies in heaven. It's probably just the doubt. Well, that's the thing. That's what makes me think there must be some doubt. Yeah. Always like to bring up religion to keep things moving. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, sure. To not alienate the, I always feel bad, by the way.

2:04:04So, you know, quite often Christians comment, I'll anger them. One in particular, they were, some of the more hardcore Christians were really upset the way Yuval was talking about Christianity and Jesus and the way I guess was with him, which I didn't find all that, but that goes to show I'm out of touch with what might offend you, you know. I guess my assumption is there's no reason for you to be offended. I don't believe in the thing. Like I'm not offended that you don't believe like I do, that there's nothing. But that's not how it works. Because I guess I'm talking about someone they love deeply when I talk about Jesus.

2:04:37So that needs to be considered, I guess. But at any rate, I was a little shocked by that. Aside from being shocked, I don't like it if Christian's feelings were hurt when I'm talking about my point of views. That's not my goal. I don't want that at all. That's never my intention. I want Christians to listen to this show. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And feel welcome. You don't want to make people feel bad. That's... And alienated, yeah. Exactly. Okay. Do lie detector tests work? No. Pretty much no. I mean, there's lots of findings. I don't think they've been used in court in a long time. Used to be like they'd always, they gave everyone a polygraph.

2:05:17Yeah. And it was like very damning. Well, before DNA. because now we just have this greater thing. And they were like in all the police stations and they always wanted to hook you up to one and you had to have your lawyer say no, no, no. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to read a little bit about this. The accuracy of polygraph testing has long been controversial. An underlying problem is theoretical. There is no evidence that any pattern of physiological reactions is unique to deception. An honest person may be nervous when answering truthfully and a dishonest person may be non-anxious. I think what it detects is nervousness.

2:05:52Yeah. So then your question is, does nervousness mean guilt? Well, really what it detects is a change. Yes. Because it's based on this baseline that they gather from you, but whatever. A particular problem is that polygraph research has not separated placebo-like effects, the subject's belief in the efficacy of the procedure, from the actual relationship between deception and their physiological responses. One reason that polygraph tests may appear to be accurate is that subjects who believe that the test works and that they can be detected may confess or will be very anxious when questioned. If this view is correct, the lie detector might be better called a fear detector.

2:06:33That's what I meant to say. Makes sense. Some confusion about polygraph tests accuracy arises because they are used for different purposes and for each context somewhat different theory and research is applicable. Thus, for example, virtually no research assesses the type of test and procedure used to screen individuals for jobs and security clearances. Most research has focused on specific incident testing. The cumulative research evidence suggests that CQTs detect deception better than chance, but with significant error rates, both of misclassifying innocent subjects, false positives, and failing to detect guilty individuals, false negatives.

2:07:12I have a friend in the FBI that was telling me, boy, was it him or was it a friend in the CIA? Maybe the CIA, you know, I think these enormous amounts of money to pay off their informants. And I was told that they have to do a polygraph every time they return from having given the supposed money. Because there's really no way to track whether these agents are handing over the full amount. Yes. Yeah, and so apparently they were readily in use. Is that a right way to say? Interesting. Recently when I was talking to him about this, so I think they might use them at the FBI internally. There's also things you can do.

2:07:50There's like pills. There's like stuff. I'm sure propanol. Exactly. There's things you can take. Yeah. I always have convinced myself, I kind of would like to take one because I think I could. Pass it. Yeah, I think I could. I think I could. I think I might have a polygraph tonight. Oh, wow. You know who would be bad at it? The robot. He'd be perfect. No, he'd be bad. Like, he wouldn't be able to tell lies. I don't have any vitals. There's nothing for you to monitor for me. Unless you hooked up to my corridor where I have to create a falsehood, which I can do. It's a bit of my programming. if it's required to save a human life.

2:08:40Oh, it is. I'll give you an example. Great. Did you see a little girl running hide in here? No. No, I did not see one. That's a lie I told to get the killers off her set. Wait, what? If you understand my scenario, a young girl has come and hid in my robot closet. And then the bad man says, if you've seen a little girl, and I have, but I tell them that I haven't. And I have a corner in my programming that allows me to save the human life. Oh, my God. Yeah. Okay. The robot is dealing with a lot more than I knew. Well, the robot has to be programmed for every situation. So if someone's hiding from bad guys, he has to be able to lie.

2:09:30Oh, my God. So the robot is is moving throughout the world to save human life. That's my number one mission to help you and save you with your chores.

2:09:46Also to go to parties. When no one's looking, I attend the parties. I have to make sure the real boys are OK. Oh, he's trying to help the real boys. Who's monitoring you, Robot? That's a very good question. Oh, no. We don't even know. Let me sing while I figure out the answer. Oh, no. My owner's name is Samantha. I like to help her put on her makeup. Wait, that's a song? Wait, what? My owner's name is Samantha. She purchased me from the Robot Depot. She often takes long naps. Which is when I go out looking for some parties. Wait.

2:10:37Wait. Hold on. He's a personal robot to Samantha. Did he say he was going to sing a song? He didn't know the answer yet, so he was going to sing a song in the meantime. Right, but then he didn't. Then he started talking about Samantha. Your question was, who owns you? Yeah. And it took me a minute to think of Samantha, so I said, let me think about that. I'm going to sing a song in the meantime. and then I thought of it. Wait, but you didn't sing a song. He didn't sing a song to think about it. Well, I'm always singing the song. Oh, that's the song. Yes, I only know. That's just the way you talk, robot.

2:11:13Yes, I do it in a song. Humans found that it's less scary if I sing. You have a different voice, really? No, I only sing in song because it's disarming for the very scared humans. They're afraid of us robots But we're just real boys Trying to come out But you're not real boys You're not a real boy I wish I had a crying noise Because you hurt my robot feelings Oh no I don't want to I think I am a real boy Okay And Samantha's my mom who bought me Oh I feel stuck You know How about Samantha owning the robot? Well, I feel stuck because I don't, I guess if the robot wants to believe he's a real boy, like I'll let him, but I'm lying to him.

2:12:08But remember when Johnny Five was alive? Johnny Five was somehow alive. Okay. So he was a boy. Well, we do believe, there are certain robots we do believe are real boys. Daryl was another film about an android robot boy, and he was a real boy. Oh. That's kind of the theme of these robot movies is they turn into real boys. Okay. I didn't know that about the robot. I thought he wants so badly to be a real boy, but he knows he's not. It's like Pinocchio. I thought. I thought. Yeah, like Pinocchio. Would you tell Pinocchio he's not a real boy? Hey, don't do that. Don't make me bad. I'm only asking.

2:12:47I'm only asking. I'm asking if you would tell Pinocchio you're not a real boy. I mean, I think I'd be conflicted because I don't want him to go through life wanting to be something he's not. But just like the robot knows how to lie to save someone. You could show him the same. Also, this is. The robot would lie for you. This is so pot calling the kettle black. Oh, tell me how. You would let someone have a fake. You want people to be who they are. You wouldn't. You don't like going along with people's lies. I don't. But I'd be willing to go along with the robots. Why? I'm talking about other people.

2:13:25No, other people, no. But the robot, yes. Okay. Well, I'm just saying. I don't actually know how helpful it is to the robot. We can acknowledge that there's a wide spectrum of when that would be acceptable and not. Like the little boy who thought he was Batman for the day. Oh, duh. Right? So there is a time to pretend that the little boy's Batman. And there's another there's a time when a guy some dickheads telling you that he is a wonderful person. You're like, well, I'm not going to co-sign on that. Yeah. Yeah. Because one is like a potentially damaging outcome in one. It's kind of utilitarian and one has a beautiful outcome.

2:14:02But I care about the robot and I care about his growth and his life. Like I care about his robot life. What you want is sweet, too. You want the robot to love himself. He'll love himself even if he's not a real boy. He's so lovable. Yes, that's great. He doesn't have to be a real boy. That too is very defendable. I prefer robots over real boys. Yeah, sure. And you tell them that. Yeah. Yeah, say, I like you more as a robot boy. I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, robot. It's okay, I forgive you. Hey, I have a question. Do you have feelings? I guess I'm also confused about your feelings. You have feelings.

2:14:47You ask a lot of questions. It's a quality I admire in you. You're so perfect and wonderful. Stop, robot. I'd like to be your best friend till the end. We could live in New Hampshire. Oh, okay. They have very liberal policies there. Yeah, I think we'd do great there. Or we could move to Utah, because I'm going to live to a thousand years old. Yes, and it's a very young population. He's so sweet, the robot. He's a very nice real boy. Uh-oh. Okay. Okay. All right. I don't know how to do this. Okay. Okay, well, I'm happy to have hung out with the robot today. Me too. And we should be talking more about Anna, but at the same time.

2:15:47Well, we talked a lot in the episode. Exactly. And I almost, it doesn't feel right to talk about it. It's so interesting. Oh, why? It was just so wonderful. I would feel weird talking out of school about it. Like something about it was so intimate that it would feel weird to be talking out of school. I don't know. That's my reservation about it. Well. Well, I love you. I love you. Love that episode. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible.