Susie Wolff (Managing Director of F1 Academy)

22:45She had an off-road Razor, like a vehicle. I love that you've given that opportunity. She's great at driving that, like a real immediate aptitude. And I said, hey, we could get carts, you and me. We have a tour bus. We could just start hitting races. I'm ready if you're up for it. And she was like, well, take me to the cart track and let me see if I like it. I take her to the cart track. She goes to one of the juniors. It's all boys. We've already done it a bunch of times. She has one session. She comes back and she's like, I don't like it. And I'm like, okay. Heartbroken. All I wanted as a kid was just someone to support me doing that.

23:18I now have the money to do that. And she just was not interested. Fast forward to like maybe eight months ago. She's like, I want to go back to the cart track. Take her back. Now she's super into it. She's 13. It's too late for anything competitive. It's not. No. Okay, well, that's encouraging. It's definitely not. Point is, is what I got to observe, which was the most rewarding was in soccer, when she played soccer, she didn't have that, like, I'm going to kill this person for the ball. She didn't have that, which I could care less. But within three sessions at the track, when she started getting good and there were slow adults out there, I started noticing, like, oh, she wants to kill these people to get by.

23:52That magic thing has just kind of happened. and yeah you kind of either have that one of us is going to the center of this turn and it's gonna be me but you know what i'm doing now with f1 academy it's because of girls like your daughter because i'm pretty sure if that little girl at eight at her first time at the cart track had seen another little girl out there yeah it could have changed her whole experience of it but because that first experience was daunting like mine was daunting but i had that older brother was like well actually he's doing i'll figure it out yeah and now she's 13 she's got a bit more confidence she's a bit older she asked to go back there it's in her anyways it's not about her no but this is so encouraging for me because that i think is the shift that's happening within motorsport now because before it's always seen as this egoistical macho male dominated world it's changing and it has to change because there's so many talented young drivers that are female like your daughter out there they just need to be exposed to it because they've got that passion within them you were saying in a different interview i listened to you in which i hadn't thought of this.

24:51There's only really three sports where the men and women are together, and it's horse jumping. Riding or jumping, yeah. Sailing and driving. Whoa. And all involve either a big piece of equipment or a big animal. Yeah, that's true. Weird. I definitely don't believe, and having been in this sport for as long as I have, that there's any reason why a woman can't compete at the very top. It just comes down to the talent pool and the kind of pipeline. Well, let us, for the most skeptical audience member, what about someone who's like, well, what about just testosterone as a aggressive hormone that boys at 18 have an excessive amount of?

25:30Do you think there's any deficit for not having that? Listen, I would never claim to see a man and a woman or a young boy and a young girl are the same biologically. Clearly, we're all made up differently, but it also comes down to individuals. Exactly. And it's so funny you mentioned testosterone because when I was racing I won't say what age I was I had a medical and I had high levels of testosterone we were just never taking supplements or anything like that at that time and immediately the guys that did the kind of assessment said oh this is an outlier you know can we do some more tests and studies because I think this is maybe why you're a racing driver and I went away and thought about overnight and came back the next day and said no I don't want me being singled out.

26:11Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't think my results are the basis or should form what a female racing driver. Because I think it comes much more down to characteristics of the individual. There are some girls who are really tough. Also, they were chicken and egging it. And I would argue your participation in it, your body starts reacting. And you're training. We have tons of data on stockbrokers. When they make riskier trades, their testosterone goes up, which begets more riskier trades. It's working in both directions. So yeah, your body could have been like, oh no, we're in a situation where we need more testosterone regularly.

26:45But I don't think that the aggression is something which can stop a woman not being successful in the sport. Because you can also argue that red mist and overaggression is a real negative. Exactly. Yes. Unless you're somehow Max Verstappen and you're bullseye. You're on the edge. Whatever that thing is, it's like I'm willing to die. Did you watch the Nürburgring 24 hours? Yes. Incredible. He's such a god. God, it's crazy. Yeah, it was impressive. I know 13's a pivotal moment, but between 8 and 13, when you're starting to cart a lot and you're starting to race, walk me through some of those challenges.

27:18Slowly, I bet it starts occurring to you, oh, I'm the only girl here, or one of very few. Not at that age. I wasn't your stereotypical tomboy. I loved pink. I played with Barbie. I asked for pink sideboards for my go-karts. I had a pink race suit. Your father was using Barbies as leverage to get you to do things. He offered to buy you a very specific Barbie. The cowboy Barbie. Cowboy Barbie. I still have her. You still have her. So cute. And it was when I was 13, I was taken to watch a Formula 3 race at Donington. There's an English driver at that time called Jensen Button, who of course went on to be a world champion.

27:50He's also fucking gorgeous. I just, sorry. I can't judge drivers as hot or not. You can't? I always had this rule I would never date another driver. And even now, when obviously there's a lot more interest in F1, they're like, oh, he's hot. I'm like, is he? Susie. There's a lot of hot. boys in the world. Really? It's asymmetric to any other sport where it's like, why are they all? Well, I kind of have a theory on why they're all so good looking. They're often the children of rich people. I mean, that's just a fact. No, not always. Oh my God, let's go through the current grid. Lewis is not from Yeah, keep going.

28:23He's an exception. Kimi Antonelli is not from huge wealth. Okay, you're right. George Russell is not from huge wealth. Huge wealth? No, no, no. I mean, his father sold his business recently, but he didn't have a That's why he relied on junior program. Lando's family's loaded. Lando, yes. Charles' uncle, uncle, who was supporting. His uncle helped, but he comes from a very humble background. Okay. Yeah, okay. But he's just so, he's a model. Yeah, he's gorgeous. He is a model, oh my God. I wonder if this is a thing she plays for Toto. Like she doesn't like, I wonder if we're seeing that. What I will say is his wife is beautiful.

29:01Yes, she is beautiful. Alexandra. They're a beautiful pair. They're a great, great couple. But Toto's so hot. Toto's definitely hot. Yeah. He's the hottest. Okay, so back to F3. You saw an F3 race. Jensen Button, I interrupted you. And that's when I think it all changed in my head because suddenly what was just a hobby, I suddenly thought, oh, wait a minute, I can do this. And that environment, the car, I'll never forget the first time I walked into the garage, everything was so immaculate and precise and the engineers. And I just thought, this is where I want to be. And suddenly I was like, okay, I can be a racing driver.

29:32I can get some car thing, move to single seaters and get to F3 and then maybe get to F1. And never once did I question why there was no woman in F1. I simply had David Coulhardt on my wall because he was Scottish. Jacques Villeneuve because he was in the Williams. And at 18, we'd done the world championships. Lewis Hamilton was there, Nico Rosberg. You also had Wayne Rainey on your wall? Wayne Rainey, Kevin Schwantz. There we go. In the Kevin Schwantz fan club. Loved him. With the yellow bandana. Oh, I loved him so much. So once you saw that and you got more focused on, Okay, I want to do this as a career.

30:04Did you start taking your time the weekends at the race to start educating yourself? Like I want you to explain to people what you had to learn about the mechanics of the car and the engineering of the car. Your job is not just to get in there and drive the car. You could do that. But the great drivers in history have been able to give really important feedback to their mechanics and their engineers to make the car faster. If they don't have that vernacular, there's going to be only so much you can develop. The car, the cart. This is kind of a big component of it. It really is. And then when you get to European and World Championship level, it comes down to the finest details.

30:39Like what tow you're running, what camber, what sprocket. It's not like you need to sit down and really educate yourself. You live it. So you're trying different things with your carts to get a small advantage. Like different thicknesses of rear axle, tire pressures. How many, what do we call them again? Seat supports. Because that changed the way. Where your weight distribution was in the cart. And I always had to carry extra weight, so we would move the weight around to see which was the optimum. Which could have been nice, because you could put it on the weak inside wheel. We talk the same language.

31:06Yeah, yeah, yeah. But some people don't. I want to give you credit. Some people don't take the time to do that. Sometimes it's exhausting. I'm a real perfectionist. So I was the one that curated all the folders that had the setup sheets from every race, so that when we came back, I knew exactly where to start from, what we changed, my notes on each track. I loved, like, the color-coordinated folders and all the setup sheets. I also want to introduce, when is juggling the pros and cons of being the only girl at these races? Because there's upside and downside, and I want to explore what those tensions were.

31:42I think the only moment I really, because I'd grown up racing with Lewis and that generation. Let's talk about that. So for a while, you were in the Scottish League. Scottish, then British. And you won driver of the year, 14 people. No, no. Yeah, but that was only national. But then you step up to the British carding. Yeah, and had a bit of success in the British carding, which allowed me to qualify then for the European Championships. And where do you meet Lewis? At what rung of this? Oh, very early on, like, I think I was only nine. We had gone down for our first British race, and they were all talking about this little boy with the yellow helmet who was outstanding, and it was Lewis.

32:16How old was he? He would have been eight. So you're a year older than him. I'm nearly two years older than him. A little boy with a yellow helmet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a really cute picture. And did you race against him? In karting, we were at the age of kind of 14. We ended up in the same class because then became 14 to 16-year-olds. So we weren't always direct competitors, but then became competitors towards the end. And then when he moved into single-seaters, we were always nearly, but I was sometimes the category above. Because you're a little older. Yeah, but there's the famous Formula Renault podium where I made P3, he won the race, and I couldn't get my champagne open.

32:53And he was a lot more used to winning than I was. So he grabbed the bottle from me and opened the champagne for me and gave it back to me. Oh my goodness. If I go back to the world championships, I'd finished 15th overall, which was solid because there was over 130 people there. But I was called to the podium ceremony. And when I was called, the team where I ran, there was like maybe 20 of us in the team. We were all like, why are you being called? I'm like, I hope I haven't had an issue with my card or something, or I'm disqualified from the race. and it was really weird that they were calling me over the tannoy.

33:25So I run over, the podium ceremony's happening, and I'm called up on stage to receive an award for top female in the world. Oh my God. And I was like so embarrassed in front of my whole team. And my first thought was, I don't even remember seeing another girl. And it was actually, there was four of us. What if you had won the best and worst female driver? I mean, seriously. Slowest and fastest female driver. It feels like a pat on the head. And I think the organizers, they were probably just trying to be nice. Yeah, I'm sure. But I think that was definitely the moment. And of course, everyone made jokes afterwards with the fact that, oh, you're great.

33:59You beat three other girls. But it was the moment I definitely thought, oh, this is going to be different than I thought. This is a thing. Because they see me as different. When I moved into single-seaters, it became the topic. There was a girl trying to make it in racing. Yeah. Wow. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking what the warning light means before pulling out of your driveway. You absolutely convinced yourself it was probably just a sensor thing right up until you were standing on the side of the road waiting for a tow.

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35:12Now, again, there's trade-offs with that, right? Is it fair to say maybe you would have gotten a sponsor easier? Definitely. I got a lot more media attention. Didn't always know how to manage it. Yeah, that's a lot. You kind of need it commercially because racing is expensive. But on the other hand, I remember going to some photo shoots and there was stuff. I'm not wearing that. I'm a driver. At that time, the sport isn't what it is now. And there was very much stereotypes of you were a girl that had leather on and posed on a car or you were a girl that drove the car. Yeah. Right, right, right.

35:40And I would imagine, too, you want to be asked about driving, and they probably want to ask you about being a female. All they wanted to ask me about was being a female. And that's fair enough, and I always thought talking about it can help others maybe be inspired by it. Or not be inspired, because at that time, I was never out to inspire others. You wanted to win races. Yeah. You didn't have a call. And I realized pretty quickly that it was all about the performance on track. Yes, you could talk about my gender, but it made it even more important that I went out there and showed what I could do because everyone seemed to have an opinion that I was either not going to be good enough or not physically fit enough or she's just there because she's a girl or she's only got a sponsor because she's a girl.

36:17So for me, I needed to go out and have the validation of a results sheet to say, no, this is why I can do it because look, I'm quick enough and I can compete. So it was always that validation through results. And that's what I love about sport. It's so pure. Yeah, it's empirical. It's objective. Not subjective. I would struggle in your industry. Yeah, this one is pretty subjective. Yeah, but sometimes you hit the hot streak of the subjectivity. You're like, fuck it, I'll take it. I don't think I'm better than that guy, but I'll take it. Yeah, what kind of neuroses arise in this period? Because you're young and you're asked to, yeah, represent all girls in racing, which you didn't sign up for.

36:55You're a token. I'll just advise you to listen. Do you know who Malcolm Gladwell is? He's like a very famous American writer. And he has a great podcast called Revisionist History. And he did an episode called The Token and talking about the weight of being a token and how it's not fair to judge someone like Sammy Davis Jr. because he was first one through the door and what he had to deal with just to be there so other people could walk through. I don't know, it's just until you take a minute to stop and think about the pressure of being a token. I think it's a really isolating. Did you feel very isolated in that experience?

37:27I remember real periods of loneliness, but it's difficult because I only have my own experience. So I don't know how different it was to someone else that wasn't a woman or feeling lonely anyways. But I definitely struggled sometimes in the environment because it was very much of a male kind of macho, egoistical. And that's why I decided I wouldn't date another racing driver because I would overhear the way they spoke about women and girls. And I thought, well, I never want to be spoken about like that. But I didn't feel like in that situation, I could always be the one saying, hey, don't do that.

38:01You shouldn't be saying that or that's not fair on her. So I just kind of detached myself from it, but thought I never want to be spoken about like that. I just had a love for the sport that meant I didn't want everything around my gender to take away from my love for just doing the sport and achieving. But you're giving up a big chunk of your life when you're a kid. All your weekends are that, you're traveling. So if you don't have friendships at the races, then you're really missing a big opportunity or a big chunk that you would. Did you have friends in the race world? I shared a house with a bunch of Irish drivers, and they became like my big brothers, and there was a lot of camaraderie.

38:37I did have friends who looked out for me and who we had a laugh with, but there was always just that... Invisible line. Yeah. Looking back now with the perspective I had, I think there was definitely moments where I would walk into a garage, especially if I joined a new team, and I could feel the scepticism. Many people say, well, what did they say? I said, it's not a direct comment. I feel this skepticism or this idea that, oh, we have her, we didn't get him. And then when you have a bit of success with that team, first of all, they're a bit like, oh, oh, you can. But then the minute you get them with you, they are loyal.

39:12The environment and everything that comes with racing, aside from being in the car and performing, you just become used to, well, that's part of it. And that's part of the game. And it's an important part of the game. Because if you're not doing the media and the sponsorship commitments, you're not racing. Yeah, talk about the financial stress of that whole period. Well, I'm giving away my age here because my main sponsor was British Telecom because they were launching something called Broadband. Okay. That's how long ago it was. But they were my saviors. And actually, I had a really tough year in 2005 because they were my main sponsor for Formula 3.

39:46And then I was at home visiting my grandmother, went out to buy her milk, slipped, broke my ankle. Oh, no. And those were dark months. I lost my race license, I lost my sponsor, I lost my seat in the F3. And you were how old then? 22. And you'd already left because you went to University of Edinburgh for a year? Yeah, I was a very conscientious student because my parents always said, can't race unless you do well at school. I'm a grafter. I don't have the natural ability, but I have no problem to work really hard. So I ended up second in my year in high school. And there was a lot of expectation that I would go to university.

40:19I picked international business, the easiest thing when you have really no clue. But really felt like a duck out of water at university. They were all partying, drinking. and I'm like, what am I doing here? Is that because you had a certain immaturity because you hadn't been hanging out on the weekends and going to dances? Maturity. Because you've been doing something so adult. You don't feel like you had missed out on childhood at all by racing? Aspects of it, like boyfriend, girlfriend stuff. Yeah, right. Social stuff. Going to the bar. I'm not a big drinker at all, even to this day. So I would see them all go out and get blind drunk and be like, what are you guys doing?

40:51Yeah, yeah. And then I would have races on the weekend, so I would be kind of training. And I was just in a different planet to the planet. And I got transported to and did never feel right there. So then I left after one year. Was that hard? Did you feel like you were disappointing mom and dad? It was more hard that it's what everyone expected me to do, to have this backup plan. And I remember going into the economics lecture in the first day of my second year, I'd gone back. And I just thought, what am I doing here? I'm here because everyone tells me I should be here. I'm just a sheep that's following the flock.

41:23I just don't want to be here. And I called home and one week later, I had all my possessions in a little Golf TDI, which was my parents' car. I rented a room near Silverstone, worked as a marshal waving the flag in the little shop that sold racewear and focused fully on racing. You get into Formula 3 in 2001? 2001 to 2004? No, was that not Formula Renault? I'm sorry, you were with Renault. So now you've gone from karting to a single-seat race car and you do pretty good there. 2004, you finished fifth overall? Yeah, and I nearly got third. And that's the breakthrough year because I got nominated for British Young Driver of the Year, not just girl.

42:02And that was the first time a girl had ever been nominated. And that's when Toto first heard my name. Oh, wow. Oh, really? We were a support race at this big festival. And he tells the story of coming over the loudspeaker, the Formula Renault race, coming this girl that was fighting for the podium. And at the time, there was just no girls racing, never mind fighting for a podium. And he remembers thinking to himself, I need to go and find this Susie. just because he was interested because he was driver managing at that time. Yeah. Right. But let's just say I wasn't a very polished version of myself then, so I'm glad he didn't find me.

42:34Okay, so you break your ankle. I read jogging. Now you're saying to help grandma. I was exiting the newsagents with the milk and the bread, and I slept. Oh, were you so mad at grandma? No. You couldn't be mad at my grandma. No, grandma had taken care of grandpa. She deserved it. No, it was the other side of the family. Oh, it's the other side. Yeah, you could be mad at her. Yeah, you could have mad. Okay, so what was the Formula 3 experience? You were on the feeder for Formula 1. Yeah, it's F3, F2, F1. If we had to, like, make an analogy to U.S. sports, to go from karting would be like you're on a state champion high school team, and then to go to single-seat Renault, you've gone into college, and now when you get to Formula 3, like, you're in the professional league.

43:18This is very serious. You're bubbling. How many female drivers were in Formula 3 at that point? Or had been? There were a couple racing at the time. Like Catherine Legg, who's in Indy 500 now, she was racing at that time. And how would y 'all get along when you saw each other? Because this might be counterintuitive. You might think, oh, you would get along so well, but maybe not. Because often the tokens are pitted against each other. Exactly. We were always pitted. And I felt it was unnatural to try and form a relationship with someone just because it was another girl. Yeah, right. And I remember distinctly then when we made it to German Touring because they would always arrange these photo shoots just with the girl drivers.

43:51I was always so against it. It's like, why do you pit us against each other when we've got everyone else that we need to beat? Exactly. Right. Okay, so how did Formula 3 go? Well, it didn't because I was testing and then the ankle broke and I didn't ever compete in a race. I lost everything that year and I went to a really, probably the toughest time of my life. And then I got from an old team boss, I was testing World Series, which was like a competitor to F3 with the thought that I would be racing that the following year under kind of like a sponsorship agreement. But I got called into a meeting in February, six weeks before the first race and got told that they kind of miscalculated the marketing budget and I'd need to bring 250 ,000 euros or pounds, which just was completely unrealistic for me at that time.

44:31I walked out of the meeting and I remember like yesterday I was sitting in my golf TDI and I called my dad. It sounds like I only speak to my dad. I speak to my mom a lot as well. It was just in those moments, it's my dad. And I remember saying to him, well, what am I going to do? I said, I don't know. As I was kind of not really knowing what to say to him, a German number was trying to call my phone. I said, oh, dad, there's another call coming. I'll take this and I'll call you back. And I picked up the phone and this gentleman in a very thick German accent said, this is Gerhard Unger from Mercedes-Benz Motorsports.

45:00What do you think of German touring cars? Now, I had tested the car in the British Young Driver of the Year Award. So I knew the car. It was 500 horsepower mega touring car. A C-class Mercedes, right? Yeah. Monica, this is your car. Ding, ding, ding. I have one of those. You have a C? Well, it was a gift. C63? She has a C43. She's not all. He didn't think I was ready.

45:24You're a good colleague. It was. It was an extremely nice gift. I don't know if you're into cars or not, but that's a really nice car. She's not, but she was making a lot of money and I borrowed her car one day and it was this fucking beat up Toyota Prius and I was driving in traffic in this car. And I was like, you're not fine with it. Don't say that. I was. And then he was like, you can't have this. We're doing too well for you to be driving this car. It's going to cap your. It says so much about you, which car you drive. See, I did not grow up like that at all. So it didn't. But all to say, I love my car and I love driving.

45:55And I can hear her coming through the gate when she goes to her house across the street. And you really mean that. You get the joy now of. I understand what it does to you internally. Not the speed, unfortunately. But it does something to your identity. It does. You infuse its muscularity and its agility. It makes you confident it says something about me. It's a signal. Yeah. I think it's more than a signal. Because I give you the counter argument. I live in Monaco, which is really superficial, and everybody drives supercars. So what do I drive? A 1972 pagoda. I buck the trend of everyone trying to outdo each other.

46:28Yeah. I get my pagoda with the roof down, and it's like from the 1970s, so you kind of like bounce along. But I love that I'm not trying to... You guys are also on a 300 SL lot, I see, so... Yeah, okay, I'll give you that. I'll give you that. You also have the nicest Mercedes in the world. I know what you're saying. That's her dream car, funny enough. I know, and Toto said he was going to give me a ride. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was exciting. Come to Monaco and we'll get you a ride. I know, I know. Come to Monaco. I will. Now that you're into cars, come to watch Formula One, Formula One Academy.

46:59I love watching Formula One. Okay, so you get this call, we got to get to Williams, but you have a long road to Williams. Well, the DTM years, everything hung on that test. I got myself out to Barcelona. And one story you will appreciate, I arrive at the track and the Germans are very direct. So I got my seat fitted and they're like, okay, and then we'll do a warm-up. I said, yeah, can I just do a lap of the track? Like a lap at the track, do you not know this track? It's like, no, I'd never driven Barcelona before. And they kind of looked at me and then Gerhard Unger kind of said, okay, Mika, come over here.

47:25And it was Mika Hakkinen, two-time F1 world champion. Show this girl around the track. So there I am in a higher car, Mika Hakkinen showing me the racing lines. Is he sober? Uh-oh. I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that. So I obviously gave it all on the test. They leave me waiting 10 days, but then finally I get called over to Stuttgart, get offered a one-year contract, and then, of course, ended up staying for seven years and chose to leave off my own back, met Toto there. I thank my lucky stars to this day. That was my big break. Such a sexy car you were racing. Way different, though, right?

47:58So heavy, so big. Was the transition out of one-seater easy for you? No. And because I'd missed that year of F3, I was up against really, really quick drivers who were after F3 level, so I had a lot of catching up today. But that's where I come into my comfort zone. I drilled down, and I had a great engineer at the time, HP, who got me so well prepared for the season, because I knew this was my one-year contract and managed to pull off a couple of really good races. Now, here's where we get into the fun. This is your history with Barbie and your history with Pink. You've at times had to kind of silence your femininity or felt inclined to.

48:33And so they put you in a pink car or you had a pink race car. You had conflicting feelings about this? It's really good water. Good bubble density. Strong, right? And you've let it cool for a while, too. Bubbling. Yeah, I think in my teenage years, I went from that little girl that loved pink to feeling that my femininity was seen as a sign of weakness. So I kind of boxed it away. And then it was really by being made to drive a pink car in DTM because the sponsor was a magazine that had a logo that was pink. But then realizing that I think because I was older by that point, I was more confident in myself.

49:08And suddenly all these little girls started appearing at the track and dressed in pink. And they all asked me, is it the Hello Kitty car? because it was a big hill of pity time then. And I think that made me realize that, well, actually, if pink is going to inspire little girls to come and see my car and to like racing, I can drive a pink car. It's cool. And I think it was also a transition in my life where I got married and Toto was so good at, he never wrapped me in cotton wool. He was tough, but we were a team and I wasn't on my own anymore. And when we got married, the Mercedes comes and marketing department, like, well, you can't change your name.

49:41I was like, oh, I'm absolutely changing my name. Like, I'm not on my own anymore. where I'm a wolf. It's a good name to take on. Incredible name. You kind of hit the jackpot. It can go sideways. Yeah, it's a good name. And that also gave me a confidence that it just wasn't me on my own anymore. He tells the story, so he had crashed at the Nürburgring, and he was in the hospital, and that you came to see him in the hospital. Well, no, we were testing in Portugal, because this is the start of our love story. We were testing in Portugal in a track called Esterel, and Hans-Juan Matiz, who was a team manager, he came into the awning where all the drivers were, because I had seven teammates, and he said Toto Wolffs had a really bad accent.

50:16Now, I remember the first time I even saw Toto in the hospitality, I was, well, I can share with you the very first time. So we were sitting at a team dinner and Matthias Lauda, Nicky Lauda's son was opposite me and he was a very good friend of mine, him and his brother Lucas, even to this day, but in a brother-sister way. And Toto walked in and I'm following him thinking, who is this guy? I haven't seen him here before. And Matthias is watching my eyes and then turning around to see what I'm looking at. And he was like, you're looking at him. And of course, my face went bright red. I said, well, no, who is that?

50:48He's like, well, his name's Toto Wolff and you've got no chance. He's dating Miss Austria. Oh my God. Oh my God. This is when all your friends are men. This is how they talk to you. So I'd obviously noticed Toto, but he was off balance. And then when Hans-Jürgen Matisse walked in and said Toto Wolff had a really bad accident in Nürburgring, I was kind of like, I hope he's okay. It hit me. And he said, well, I think it'd be really nice if one of the drivers you called as a group. And Gary Paffitt, who was kind of de facto more senior driver, said, yeah, that's a really good idea. Susie, you should call him.

51:21I was like, yes, I'll call him. I guess I have to. Yeah, for the team, I'll do it on behalf of the team. And then suddenly I had his number and a reason to call. And then you go see him in person? No, I called him. No, it was just a call. I called him, and it should have been like a 10-minute, the drivers are all wishing you well, but we were on the phone for like an hour. And then he said, I'm going to get better in the next kind of 10 days, the doctors say, I'll be fine and I'll see you in Dusseldorf for the big presentation of the championship. So of course, I'm counting down the days of Dusseldorf.

51:51Outfits, thinking this is going to be brilliant in Dusseldorf. So we have this big dinner the night before. I did everything, like everything. And I'm sitting at the dinner. He's not there and I'm thinking, okay, he's going to walk in any second. Long story short, he doesn't turn up for dinner. Oh, jeez, Toto. And I am gutted. Toto. Thank you. Come on. So comes to breakfast the next morning and I say to myself, I'm not even going to get in dress. Who cares about that? Straight into my race suit, hair tied back, who cares about total. This arrogant Australian. Exactly. Shit head. So I go down to breakfast and he comes over to the table all jolly and kind of sits near me.

52:24I said, well, what happened to you at the dinner last night? He said, yeah, I called one of your teammates to check where it was and he said, don't bother coming, it's boring. Oh. And I'm looking at the guy that he called. That person was in love with you. No, he wasn't even. I like that take, yeah. Yep. Yeah. Oh, you don't want to call. Everyone just laugh. Bye, Cota. It's really boring here. It sounds like almost like an S. It's boring here. Like, don't come. Everyone got food poisoning. It's a mess. Don't come. So we talk a bit and all the butterflies come up. And then I go off to do my thing and he's off to do his thing.

52:55And then at the lunch break, all the drivers and kind of the management around and they're talking, of course, comes to people's love lives. And I was actually dating someone from another team, but who was a manager, not a racing driver. Someone then said to Toto, you know, how's it going after Miss Austria? and then someone said to me, well, isn't it time that you dated someone at Mercedes, Susie? And I kind of said, well, there's nobody at Mercedes. And then Toto in front of everyone said, well, sure, there's me. What about me? Of course, my face. And I'm looking down at the ground, trying to laugh along.

53:26So I didn't really see him for the rest of the afternoon, but when I left to drive back to Switzerland, I had one of those thoughts where it's now or never. So I got my phone, I pulled into a fuel station, 10 times drafted this text message. And it basically said, if it had to be someone from Mercedes, it would only ever be you. Wow, Susie! I put it all out there. I put it all out there. I'm so ready. I know. I'm jealous I want this text. I know. So I sent it and then got back on the motorway and I got a reply pretty quickly. And I remember, because it could have gone either way. Like, oh, you're so sweet, but no.

54:05Yeah, get real. Miss Germany has just become available, it turns out. I'll circle back after I get through all the misses. I know. I've got a few more countries to go. Yeah. But no, the message back was something about I'm getting in a plane. Oh, that's nice. I'll call you. I'm like, what? Oh, boy. So it wasn't like a no, it wasn't a yes, but then he called two hours later and that was... That was it. You guys were engaged eight months later. Then it's fast. He bought the ring six weeks later. Oh, my gosh. And we were engaged eight months later. It was an immediate click. Okay, quickly. Are you sensitive at all about talking about Toto or no?

54:39No, zero. Okay, great, great, great, great. Because I wanted to ask, tell me about the cultural chasm between the Scottish and the Austrians, right? So you've already hinted at a couple of them. It's like very direct. Very direct. Some of the things he said to you over your, we'll get to, but when you drive for the first time in Formula One, he's like, don't be shit. It was like giving you a pep talk. Well, I thought it was going to be this big pep talk and he just looked at me and was like, don't be shit. Did you say, hey, you need to be a little softer or no? No, that fires up something in me.

55:12I felt to myself. Well, yes, your whole life is about saying like, you think, okay. You think I can't? Yes. It's her fuel like Jordan. Yeah. Did you watch The Last Dance? The blue game. Yeah, and he just has to come up with an enemy. He's like, I'm going to pick this guy from the team. And he makes up a story why he hates this guy. It's a good one. I want to share with you just how direct he is. the night before our wedding, well, the day we were signing the paperwork, he was very quiet. And the next morning I said, is everything okay? He's like, yeah, I think so. I've done a positive and negative list.

55:41Oh my God. And there's more positives than negatives. I'm like, oh my God. Excuse me? That's not very romantic. Excuse me? I was like, I don't care what's on that list. We're getting married. We're getting married tomorrow. Okay. Too late for that list. Throw that list. Oh my God. That is so funny. I think I was really lucky that Toto was nearly 10 years older or just over 10 years older than me. So he'd been married once before. He had two wonderful little kids. So he'd kind of been through it and knew exactly what he wanted. Probably what to do differently, hopefully. Exactly. And I come from such a wonderful family who really embraced him.

56:11And, you know, he lost his father at a young age. So I think through me, he saw this sense of family and this loyalty to each other that we stick together through sticking things. And probably his dream dad. Fucking racing motorcycles, owning a shop, speed, speed, speed. Yeah. That's a good family to click into. And I definitely struggled. And I have obviously speak to my stepkids about it now. I struggled at the beginning because I was this selfish racing driver who suddenly on certain weekends would have to be a mother. And I just had no idea how to be in that situation. And I knew from my childhood, and obviously the respect to his ex-wife, that I didn't want to come in and pretend to be like a second mother.

56:45So that took a bit of navigating. But then things come up and you are mothering. Yeah, and there was a little girl. I mean, Rosie, the cutest little girl you could imagine. And you feel so much affection, but then you don't want to overstep. Yeah, it's a fine line. And we weren't married then, so you're just trying to navigate. That wasn't easy at the beginning, but he was very understanding of it. And then when we got married, it all became just much easier because we knew, okay, we're a unit and we'll figure this out. It wasn't like I was going to disappear or anything. I'm going to talk in broad stereotypes right now, so forgive me.

57:13There's going to be tons of exceptions to this rule that are Austrian. There's tons of exceptions that are male. But a very common tension with men and women around me is the woman says something. The man hears, oh, she's asking me to fix this problem. And then they start laying on, I'm going to fix this. And the woman's like, hey, man, I just wanted some compassion. I wanted you to just be with me with this. So that's like already a male-female thing that kind of exists. And then I think Austrian, Scottish. Scottish are much more fucking Gaelic. We got flutes. We're very expressive, right? We're dancing around in the kilts.

57:52You know, it's a different culture. So I feel like that would even compound this male-female thing a little bit. Completely. Because I'm someone that's pretty tough. Like, I give you an example, like, when I get ill, Thoth is like, do you need anything? I'm like, no, no, I'll be okay. Okay. So he just disappears. Oh, my God. Like, six hours later, he comes back. I'm like, did you have a nice dinner? He's like, yeah. Are you better yet? Do you think of bringing me anything or checking on me? Oh, my God. Well, are you better yet? I'm like, no. You're like, oh, well. He's like, no, you said you didn't need anything.

58:17It bores him. Whereas if he gets ill, the world stops. Oh, my God. The world stops. And he's like, no, but what you had can't be what I have because it's so bad. I can't. Certainly the same virus. I gave it to you. Now you have it. Now do you like it? Exactly. I definitely have to say he's got better with age. I arrived here yesterday and he wanted to surprise me by coming to the airport, which after we've been married 15 together, kind of 17 and a half. and I obviously had a car boot to pick me up and he wanted to surprise me, but he didn't realize that one of the group chats that he was speaking to our office on, I was also on.

58:51So he's like, I want to surprise her. I'm going to cancel her car. I'm coming to the airport and I'm reading this on the airplane. I'm like, that's so sweet. Good intention. Such a good intention. That is sweet. It's very sweet. Yeah. Okay. So now back to your racing. Back to racing. After racing for DTM for seven years, I guess, how do you get called to Williams? Frank Williams had come to watch a German touring car race, It's a DTM race at Brands Hatch. But at the same time, Toto was looking to possibly enter Formula One by investing. He looked at Toro Rosso at the time, was looking at Williams.

59:21So I don't shy away from the fact that I was on the radar, obviously also being Toto's wife. And Frank, I remember at the time... Because his daughter hadn't started running the team. No, she was simply working in the team. And it was actually Toto was a big part in picking Claire up and saying, you need to be on the board, you need to be more involved and you're Williams. But let's just say for Frank, he came from the era where women definitely didn't go out on the track to race. They were very much behind the scenes. And I was teammates at that time with David Coulthard and Ralph Schumacher, former drivers of his.

59:50He was always so interested in asking me about my racing and how did you start and you're Scottish. And he went to boarding school in Scotland and hated it. So we always had this joking about how I loved Scotland and he hated Scotland. And I said to him in one of those conversations, well, it's my big dream to drive a Formula One car. And at the end of the weekend, he called over Adam Parr, who was the CEO at the time. and they said, we've got something to tell you. We're going to give you 25 laps in an F1 car. And that's all it was ever supposed to be. And at that point, you had not been in a single seat, massive aero car.

1:00:18So like you're rusty for this. Rusty, but DTM was a high level. So it wasn't like it was completely detached. But just open wheel, closed wheel, tons of downforce. A Formula One car is completely different to anything else. Yeah. We've interviewed a few drivers at this point, But just to remind people, the easiest way to say it is like the car is creating so much downforce. It's a reverse airplane. It has a lot of aerodynamics to create the opposite of lift. And so it's pushing the car really far down. And the current car weighs like 980 kilograms or something. I love how informed. He's very informed.

1:00:55But the car is creating 2 ,000 kilograms of downforce. So for real, the car at a certain speed could drive upside down just fine. So you just got to remember, that's the element in F1 that's not in other racing. And that's why at Silverstone, you can take a right-hander in seventh gear going 190 miles an hour, a sharp right-hander, and be stuck to the fucking... And that's a leap of faith. It is because it's counterintuitive that the more speed you have, the more downforce you have. And the more you're going to stick to the ground. Yes. You got to unravel everything you've learned almost. But the great thing is, and I was really lucky because as soon as that decision was made, I mean, really, hats off to Williams.

1:01:34I was put through my pasties in the simulator, straight line tests, everything to get me ready to perform in that test. There was no way I was getting in without being really ready for it. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:01:57Let's talk about the physicality. The physicality was harder to prepare for. I ended up getting access to the machine that Michael Schumacher built at the end of his career to build up only your neck muscles. And interestingly, when I stopped racing within months, my neck had just shrunk in size. Neck muscles build up quickly, but shrink quickly. Susie wears her hair always down to cover her neck. She's insecure about how big her traps are. Not anymore. I mean, with the ball. Back in the day. Back in the day. My Botox guy says I have a thick neck as well. Oh, is he Botox that thing, huh? Well, I guess I do.

1:02:29We work to keep it small. But maybe I could have driven F1. Oh, my God. I miss my calling. But in a nutshell, so, yes, your body at rest. If you weigh 150 pounds at one atmospheric pressure, you weigh 150 pounds. But as G-forces go up, there are moments on the track. I know the one that got you really hardcore was braking. You'll hit 4.5 Gs braking. And it's like something coming behind you, forcing your head forward. Because you're strapped so tight into the seat and the seat's made for you and everything's down to the millimeter. So you're really well strapped in. You need a very, very strong braking leg because the brake pressure is important.

1:03:07And then there's power steering in the car. So it's not actually your arm muscles that take strength. It's your neck. But Lewis had said to me, put a neck pad in, paint it white so people can't really see it. It fades into the car. This is in Barcelona. There's one really, really long turn. And he's like, use it because if your neck goes, you had to do 72 laps at Barcelona. It was a test to see if I could do a race distance. And he said, if your neck goes, which means you just can't hold up anymore. He said, you'll have to stop and you don't want to stop. So he said, use, he said, I do it at the beginning of a season as well before my neck muscles get built up.

1:03:41and that was one of the best tips because he said, as you just enter the right, lean. So don't even try because it's like being on a roller coaster but trying to keep your head straight. It's nearly impossible. 20 turns for 72 laps. It's like impossible. Yeah, if your head weighs 18 pounds, it now weighs 90 pounds in the turn. Yeah, those very first 20 laps, it was a damp track to begin with, which helps G-Force, but it's more challenging to be on a damp track. But there was never a moment on that day where because they'd done such a good job in the preparation, Obviously, there was so much media around the fact that a girl was getting back in an F1 car, which they had underestimated and I didn't even think would factor.

1:04:18But to your point earlier, it then worked in my favor because they realized I did well in the day and this is a big opportunity because this amount of interest for the team is hugely valuable. So they developed a role for me because it was in November and the team was already set for the following year. Development driver, which is a common term in F1 now, development driver. Yeah, so what were your duties as a development driver? Lots of simulator work, lots of straight line tests, and then some testing throughout the season because it wasn't as limited as it is now. Okay, so when you get called and told you're going to drive in practice at Silverstone for the British Grand Prix, at that time it had been 22 years since a female had been on a track in an F1 car.

1:05:01Wow. How'd that decision come about and what was your response? So I did that one test that went well, and then I became development driver, and I was doing steady work of not crashing the car, straight line test, and it was all kind of a natural development. And I was obviously also pushing to say, well, what's next? Because you're getting used a lot in the media, and there had to be an authenticity to it. And to be fair to Williams, they also just didn't want it to be a show. It had to have substance. Well, people were accusing it of being some kind of a promotional media stunt. Completely. So we felt then, well, there had to be substance to it, And that's why it just kept progressively getting to be more opportunity.

1:05:40So just talk about the morning waking up. I can already imagine this. You'd love to go into that day very rested. But of course, the brain is like, there's no way you can sleep the night before, right? And Toto's next to you. He has a race as well. He's now principal of Mercedes in this time. And so you're just up all night, right? Yeah, it was really difficult because there was so many thoughts going through my head. and the first thing I did when I woke up is you immediately check the weather because that plays such a big part in if it was going to be damp. And the very difficult thing with FP1 sessions is that I was taking Valtteri Bottice's car and if I caused any damage, it had a huge impact on his race weekend.

1:06:22So you're very much told by the team, we're going to let you go for a fast lap because it means nothing to me if I can't go out and do a fast lap. Everyone's looking and I'd rather not drive than just drive around slowly. Be 20th on the... Exactly. But the golden rule is there's no way you can crash that car. Yeah, the amount of stress that you're taking on, it's not even a real fair test of what you can do. This moment that people that aren't into cars wouldn't understand. Like the most humiliating thing you can do is fucking stall a car. So even just right there, you getting out of the garage is like packed with stress.

1:06:56Yeah. Will you stall or not? Got out of the garage. And it was the first thing my dad said to me when I came in. He's like, thank God you didn't stall. Oh, my God. You're either going to stall or spin the tires, which you don't want to do, because then you're all out of control leaving the garage. It's like this tiny little window. Yeah. But you get out. You got to be like, OK, I didn't stall, right? First turtle. And then you get out there. And what is the experience like once you're on track? Well, my very first test was a great experience. The FP1 at Silverstone. My wonderful Mercedes engine blew after one lap.

1:07:28And that was such an anticlimax. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Okay, but then you go back out. You do another practice session in Spain. Hulkenheim. That was where I made my German touring car debut. Now, this is a big day because on this day, you ended up finishing the practice session just two tenths off of Philippe Massa's. Was it two? I thought it was one. Okay, the internet says two. I'll give you one. No, I think my head I have is one. It was probably two. two tenths of a second next to the team driver is fucking awesome. But that was such a different mentality to Silverstone because I think the disappointment of Silverstone, I got to Hockenheim and I was in such a different statement.

1:08:14You were angry. Yeah, let me get out there. I have to use this chance now. Yeah, you're pissed off. Yeah. It's a good fuel source. And I was so thankful I had that other chance because I thought if it had just been that and the engine had gone. So I was so grateful. And there was just one corner. I knew that there was a chance of hitting the gravel. So that's where I lost about a 10th and a half. Everywhere else on the track, I was on the limit. The feeling of driving an F1 car on the edge, I think there's nothing else that comes close. Everything's happening so fast. There isn't a single stray thought about anything else.

1:08:48It requires such concentration and looking ahead nonstop that it is a unique state to find yourself in. And if you ask some of the current F1 drivers, some even prefer qualifying because it's all down to that one lap. Whereas in a race, you're always having to think of, okay, when the pit stops, where you are in the race, everything. Whereas in qualifying, it's everything into one lap. And it's such a hyper focus. It's a special feeling. How fatigued did you feel at the end of Germany? Zero. I was so hyped and pumping with adrenaline. The neck was huge. I won't say that by the... The neck was balding.

1:09:26It's your neck and it's like bigger than your neck. You need to tell your Botox doctor. If he wants to see a big neck, I'll send him pictures. I mean, don't get me wrong, by the evening I was completely, the adrenaline had worn out. But for me, it was the best day of my career. You ultimately retired in 2015, although you do have a race in 16, race of champions. Yeah, that's more like a fun event for current NX drivers. You have cute Jack in 17. Best thing I've ever done, yeah. Oh yeah, what could be better? You become the team principal in Formula E for Venturi Racing. It was a team that was at the back, losing a lot of money.

1:10:01And I was searching for what to do after stopping my racing career. I was fighting a complete lack of identity. Yes, I sure. I had fallen. As much as I love being a mother, very quickly realized that I can't only be a mother. So I was searching to find that thing. And then the Formula E opportunity came. And I was a real skeptic of Formula E at the beginning because I was like electric racing cars. That wasn't my era. but it gained a lot of momentum when dieselgate happened and electrification became a big thing and a tough challenge. Yeah, because team principal is a much different role than driver.

1:10:34Hugely different. Yeah, you're a manager, you're an inspirer, you're so many things. And I had a lot to learn. But I had watched Toto closely start to become very successful in F1 and I kind of had a front row seat of hearing what his challenges were, of watching him do it. So I knew what the job entailed. And Formula E, obviously, is a much smaller scale than F1. And my business partner who offered me the role and took a real leap of faith in me, Gilles D 'Opasta, was someone I just had a good connection with and felt, OK, I can trust him. And we turned the team around and then nearly won the Formula E World Championship.

1:11:08Yeah. And then you became the CEO of that team. Why did you leave? You left in 2022. We sold the team. Gilles wanted to exit and move into the space industry. He wanted to build an electric rover to go on Mars. Oh, wow. which we were set to do together again until I got the call from Stefano Domenicali for F1 Academy. All right, so tell people what F1 Academy is. F1 Academy is a series started by F1, which is for all female drivers. We've nearly fully fund the drivers and the series. And it's basically a platform or series to give female talent the opportunity in the sport to break down the preconceptions that it's a man's world and to kind of inspire the next generation to see that there's a place for women in the sport.

1:11:48And it's a response to noticing, right, the demographic of fans was changing pretty dramatically. Like a lot of young females were coming in as spectators of the sport. It had shifted massively. Because of the show. I bet that's a big part of it. Which show? It definitely got a lot of people who didn't know about F1 to be playing the convention. I'm into Formula One because of Drive to Survive. Really? Oh, yeah. I was like, that's the boringest racing in the world. They don't ever pass each other. Who cares? And then once I found out, like, how much is going into the nobody passes anybody, I'm like, oh, there's so much going on that I just didn't know.

1:12:22It's a science fair. It completely is. And then there's drama off track as well as on track, the politics. What a show. What a show. Yeah. So, yeah, they had all these new female spectators. And a very young female demographic. And I have to give credit to Stefan or to Liberty. They said, OK, we need to create something that gives opportunity to young women because they recognized that it was shifting. and would I have started an all-female series? I mean, we're the only race series in the world that over 80 % funds our drivers. So basically, we're giving half a million euros to every driver in order to do a season and really have the possibility to nurture their talent and allow them to develop it.

1:13:04But in some weird way, did you have to step over the notion that this is going backwards? We're trying to get women and men to race together. So if we split this off, is that lowering the bar for the women? Yeah. And there was someone that had tried and failed before called W Series. And people had always said, oh, why didn't you get involved in support? But I didn't get involved if they didn't understand the business model. I didn't understand how they were going to make it work. And they were doing it as a business venture. So it was more that I didn't understand the sustainability of how to make it into a business.

1:13:34Whereas with F1 Academy, it was backed by F1. It had the investment from Liberty. It was set up very differently. I think we should talk about that. When you got there, the driver was responsible for a third of the budget. Liberty was going to give a third and then F1 gives a third or someone else. The driver one third, the team one third and Liberty one third. Right. So this is a lot of onus on a young driver. And there's not a lot of sponsor money flooding into this new thing. So when you got there, it wasn't actually tenable. It wasn't tenable at all. And I will never forget the first time I because there was a lot to get the contract on board.

1:14:07I obviously had to exit from the space project and I was letting Gildo down. so it all took a bit of management. So by the time I got to my first race, I remember getting near, it was Paul Ricard in the south of France, thinking, there's no cars around. Why is this so empty? And I got to the entrance and there wasn't even a security guy on the entrance. I'm thinking, it's really strange. And I get to the paddock. You thought you had the wrong date, maybe. I thought I'd said something wrong. Calendar debacle. And I get out of my car and I'm immediately met by drivers who say, you know, I just want to give you the heads up.

1:14:34I can't find the one third sponsorship money. It was 150 ,000 euros. Then some of the team managers came and said, we're not finding any sponsorship out there. So we're out. Oh, boy. You're finding out you've taken on a role where it's collapsing, basically. And I called Steph and I said, listen, this is not working. He's like, OK, well, what do we need to do? I was like, I don't know, just now, but let me figure it out. Give me time. And that's when I quickly realized, OK, we need to race with F1. We need to get the F1 teams on board and we need to get commercial partners on board and bring all the assets in-house.

1:15:00And so then you go through this precarious building of commitment from the teams and you go to Toto first. Who's like, get everyone else and then you'll get me. You can be the first one and you're going to have to get six and then I can be the seventh. Toto! Never like Sticky Daisy. No, you can't show favoritism. Exactly. And I completely get that. It wasn't even that I felt angry about it. I completely understood. So you were able to do that, though. You got six teams. You had to go to Horner, which is its own unique thing. Because of the rivalry between Toto and Horner. But to be fair to him, he was great.

1:15:36He was quick in. you were able to make this kind of a viable offering and then how has the success of it unfolded? With the F1 teams I didn't sign them up long term I said listen if this doesn't work you can all leave I'm not obliging you because what I didn't want it to be was a charity but also like a feminist crusade as against the world I said to them I think this will be for the greater good of the sport we have this new fan demographic but it's got to work and if it doesn't you're all free to leave because this is not something I'm obliging you to do that you feel you have to do And then within the year, it kind of started gaining momentum.

1:16:08And then when I kind of at the beginning of this year went to all the teams, it was clear that they wanted to sign up for the long term and we have commercial partners. But it's just really gone from strength to strength. But I don't take all the credit for that because I do think the sport in itself should take the credit because they've created this opportunity and they've all got on board with it. And they made some compromises they hadn't in the past. Like they're letting you use the logo in a way that other teams can't. They've carved out some provisions to be helpful. and then you got some major sponsors.

1:16:35You got Hilfiger, you got a makeup brand that I don't know the name of. Charlotte Tilbury, now we have Sephora. We have Pepsi with Gatorade, we have American Express, Lego. Yeah, Marquis. We made an F1 Academy car. Oh, cute. The commercial partnerships were very strategic in that I want your 13-year-old or however old your daughter is to feel some affinity. Well, I can belong there. There's a place for me in this sport. So when she goes to a kart track or another little eight-year-old goes to a kart track, she's like, I can do this because she's seen others doing it and she sees the pathway. And it just takes one, but it can change everything.

1:17:06It makes that reality possible. Yeah. Do you have any part of scouting who will join the academy? Do you have fun observing young racers and thinking who would be, are they already coming by way of the teams? It's kind of a mixture. I get a lot of fun, and that's a little bit why I wrote the book of passing on all my learnings, because I really feel as women, especially when you have knowledge and experience, it's so important to pass it on to the next generation because it can help so much for others not to face the same battles you did. So I do love that I'm giving them a chance because I've got chances in my life, that I'm kind of passing on the challenges that they can learn from, they don't have to go through themselves.

1:17:44And I love being on the race weekends and seeing them take this opportunity. And we still have our skeptics and we still have our egomaniacs in the paddock who will always be negative about it. I know them and I know their opinions are never going to change, but that's okay because I feel the momentum of it as a whole. And I think ultimately, you know, we see more young girls turning up at karting tracks. And a lot of the young women are very popular. Like they'll outpace the popularity of some F3 drivers. Like if I look at Instagram and stuff, you have some drivers that are pretty wildly popular, which is cool.

1:18:15Which is very cool. Now, if you had to distill everything you know of your last 30 plus years navigating a fully male environment, What advice do you have as far as like, no, you can be out loud and be pink. But also, here's a reality that you're not going to get around. I mean, do you think you can be out loud and pink? Now I do. Looking back, you know, it was so funny because at the end of the book, my brother kind of said, oh, what would you tell little Susie? And when I sat down, it was like, not what I can tell her. It's what that little girl, that belief she had in herself, that fearlessness, that ambition, that little girl who said at 13, I want to make it to F1.

1:18:56despite the fact there was nobody that looked like her doing that. And I sometimes think that if we go back to the child in us, what would your life be if you had no limitations? If you didn't have society's preconceptions shoved on you of what your life should look like and what you should be. For all my years, and that's where the book's given me so much perspective because I think I compartmentalize. I'm always looking forward. I never really looked backwards to think, okay, well, how was the journey? What did I learn? But I think it's having that belief in yourself. And sometimes there'll be moments of your life where you do doubt yourself.

1:19:27There's moments where I'm not sure I've got this all under control, but you've got to have that belief. Are there like domains that you've seen where it's like, oh yeah, that's how it is. And this is where I can make progress. I think where we are in the sport now compared to even just five years ago, even 10 years ago, there's been a huge shift culturally. And maybe it's linked to society and the whole Me Too movement. And some say, oh, I went too far. It helped industries like ours because let's say the behaviors of certain individuals, and I don't want to say it's blackmarking everyone, but the culture changed.

1:19:58You don't get away with it anymore. You're seeing it everywhere across the board. You're seeing these older figures in Formula One putting their feet in their mouth pretty regularly. Like in the last five years, there's all this residual racism that you're like, whoa, what do you say? A German driver has a different mind than a Mexican driver. You know, there's been a lot of rapidly evolving cultural changes. And I think Lewis should take some credit for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, he's someone that the easiest thing to do is just follow the trodden path. But he chose to be different. He brought a culture into the sport.

1:20:29He made that entry into the pits like a catwalk for all of us, which has been great for the sport. But he chose to stand up for what he believed in and he chose to be different because that's who he was. And that also helped. Helped, moved it all forward. Yeah, when your most valuable asset is being out loud about racism, what choice do you have? You can't silence that person. And he's a goat. Yeah, yeah. So if he says it, people are forced to listen. Back to the objectivity. You can say what you want. This guy's won 100 races. He has the goods. But definitely what I see now, the minute I go into an important meeting, I can tell within the first 10 minutes if the man at the table has a daughter or not.

1:21:05Because it's such a different view when you're a man with a daughter at the table. Because it's as if you're able to see the situation through what your daughter would experience. Yeah. And you want the world to be the most inviting place for her. And even some of the decision makers in the sports who maybe their daughters are not going to come into the sport, but you can see them understanding, yeah, I get that because actually, would I want my daughter to be treated like that or not get that opportunity? No, I wouldn't. And so they're much more proactive. And I think that's also changed because the leaders now, they're the next generation and they want this sport to be in the right place.

1:21:41Yeah, Stefano's just a good dude on top of everything else. He's not like some of the previous heads of F1. Yeah, he's an evolved guy. You've been fearless. what has it been like watching your son be in carts? Well, it's so interesting, your story with your daughter, because Jack is really into racing. He has been from a young age, and you could argue, well, he's surrounded by it. But Toto was very against him getting into racing because he kind of felt, why would we do that to ourselves? You know, with the name and it's our industry. And I kind of said to him, I get that, but I got given that chance.

1:22:16And if he really wants it, I'm not going to not give him the chance. Yeah. He got scared. Toto got scared by one accident. He is a parent that has fear for his kids or just anything happening in general. Yeah. But he also, when we started going to the kart track, he could see how much Jack got into it. And now we have the life of the motorhome, the racers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And those are some of the best weekends we have because it's back to basics and it's together as a family. And it's seeing this little guy have to dig deep in moments. And yes, his name makes him a target. Yeah.

1:22:46But I say to myself, well, it'll toughen him up because no matter what he does in life and whether he's good enough or not, he'll have to figure it out. But I think sport for a young person just teaches you so many life skills. How about you driving? Do you still get joy out of driving? Do you do track days? I don't have capacity because now every weekend that I'm not on a F1 weekend, it's with Jack on the car track. I kind of feel I had my turn. It was great. I still love driving fast. Toto and I, I think if we would have a free weekend, we would love nothing more than to get on a racetrack with a GT car or something.

1:23:17but then it can always end up with us not speaking to each other because we both want to beat each other. Yeah, but he was very honest about he tries to cheat every time and that you're always a half second faster no matter what cheating he does. Oh, I love that. He put different tires on the cart. He put ballasts in your cart. Can't be beat. No matter what, you're still half second always faster. Yeah. There will be a moment in time where we will be the old ones out on track. Oh, I hope we're best friends at this point. That's so fun. I'll be there with you. All we have. So cool. Well, I'll tell you what your book does a great job of.

1:23:47The book's called Driven, is you really do a good job of helping people understand what it's like to be sitting in the car strapped in. The experience of it is so unique, and you do a great first-person job of explaining what that feels like. That's a very unique perspective. Well, that's a real compliment coming from you. Yeah, yeah. No, it's so unique, and I think it's so applicable to any situation where it's like, okay, I've been aiming at nothing but this. We're now here. Oh, fuck. You don't have to be into racing to have that experience. You're pitching for the first time as the head of your department, and this is the day.

1:24:27I think it's highly relatable. I adore you, and I'm really glad I got to meet you. You're going to make me blush. Yeah. This was so great. But Driven is out now. Also, people can listen to it, which I advise. You read it? I read it, yeah. Nice. Was that daunting? You know, my publisher said, oh, you need five days. I was like, I don't have five days, so I did it in two. Yeah. So it's like double speed. But I found it therapeutic in a way. I kind of got into a rhythm. I really enjoyed it. And did you have this moment? I think sometimes when I've read what I've written, it helps me integrate what happened in my life.

1:25:00I found it was a lot more work than I anticipated, and we were perfectionists. We got to nine drafts, my brother and I. But I found the whole experience really enjoyable and therapeutic, definitely. Yeah, like it helps you take a minute and recognize, oh, right, I really did go through all those things. And I survived all those things. And I can survive a lot. Did you get unexpectedly emotional while reading it ever? Yes. Yeah, what parts? The hardest was a letter to little Susie. I took like five attempts because I kept welling up. Yeah, yeah. Because I guess it was a moment where I was speaking to myself in a way, but it was very emotional.

1:25:34I bet I know what was going on, which is Susie's been talking so mean to herself since she was a little kid. And you got to be kind to her and you probably deserved a little kindness from yourself. Yeah. And that's really hard, right? That is so true. It was always more. It was always you're going to keep going. This is not good enough and keep going. And then suddenly I look at that little girl and I want to give her a hug. Yeah. Just take a break for a second. And aren't you proud of her? And so thankful to my parents looking back. Like, but this little girl who had this dream and drive and ambition is like, I just want to hug her and say, you did okay.

1:26:11It's stressful having a huge dream. Yeah. Oh, God. Well, Susie, I adore you. This has been so fun. Everybody read Driven. I'm so glad you wrote it. You're so good for the sport. And I hope we get to talk to you again. I really hope we're like in our 70s driving the Nürburgring together on a weekend. I think let's do a trip to the TT. And then from there, go straight to Nürburgring. Do a few laps. I'm in. I took Kristen in the Nürburgring in a rental. But do you know the track? I didn't. That was my first time there. I rented a car at Avis rental car at Frankfurt Airport. And I asked the German Avis rental guy, could you put into the nav?

1:26:47Because it was all in German. Can you put in the Nürburgring? Oh, no, you must not drive this car on the ring. I said, oh, no, no, no. I would never drive this. No, you must not. I go, no, no. I'm going to go spectate. I just want to look at it from far as, okay. He reluctantly put it in. And sure enough, we went and just bought laps. And yeah, went out and we were in a pack between a GT2 and a GT3. We were in like base 911. But it was so fun. But anyways, Kristen was just like reading a magazine the whole time. I'm like, oh, and the bull's coming up. You got to look at the bull. She could care less.

1:27:16She's just like reading. I just have one funny story to share with you. When I just joined Mercedes-Benz for DTM, we'd done pre-season testing. We'd done the first race. And then I got told to go to Nürburgring. And I was a young Scottish girl that really only in single seaters had driven nationally in the UK. So Bernd Schneider, who was like the king of DTM, is like, oh, let's go and do a lap at the Nürburgring. And I'm like, what's the Nürburgring? He's like, come with me. Oh, boy. Yeah, OK. I'm getting the C63. The barrier goes up and he takes off. And I'm like, and because I didn't know what it was in the corners, this is a never-ending racing track.

1:27:47It's like a 12.8-mile lap and there's every different surface. You're almost on cobblestone at one point. It's like you're in a cement bowl, then you're on asphalt, then you're in the woods. Incredible. Then if it starts raining, things get really exciting, which happened to us. Okay, I adore you. Thank you. Thank you both so much. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes.

1:28:14Well, I don't like time again. Why? Because that was so sad and sweet. That made you miss the time that's gone by. Yeah. Should we play the audio of that? I don't know if it's good enough audio. You really can see the face. She looks like a mix between Rumpelstiltskin and Throw Mama from the Train. Okay, Dax found an old video of Delta. Yeah, and she's being interviewed for the quote documentary that Lily's making. I wish we could show it. We can't. I know. God. You know, Delta just said to me the other day, if there's ever a way I could be on the fact check again, I was like, I miss you on the fact check so much.

1:28:57I know. We can put a bag over our head. Yeah, that's neat. So, Jelta, why don't you tell us what your favorite thing to do is? My favorite thing to do is play basketball. She never played basketball. What are your talents? Multiple. My talent is I try to be like Lincoln because Lincoln does good stuff. Oh, that's sweet. That's what I'm trying to do. It's too much to handle. The fact that she rethinks, Lily says, what are your talents? And she says, my talents are, my talent is, she switches it to singular. So good. Do you like Lincoln? Because Lincoln does good stuff. Good stuff. Oh, my God. Yeah, I guess it's heartbreaking.

1:29:58But they got for videos. I know. Like there's no video of me doing anything. Me either. None of you? You guys had probably camcorders, right? We had those big camcorders and, you know, where you put the tape in. Yep. So there was some tapes, but they're all gone. They haven't been digitized? Uh-uh. That feels like something your mom would have done in her retirement is digitize the VHS. She hasn't. She needs to call Blockbox. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Our old safe box. Yeah. Yeah. What is it, Rob? I'm trying to look it up. Oh, Jesus. No one knows. Well, I feel less bad. Anytime Rob doesn't know something.

1:30:34It was called, like. Safe lock. No. Legacy box. Legacy box. Legacy box. Are they still with us? They're alive, yeah. Oh, great. I don't know if they're with us, though. You should yell to your mom. Make her digitize our stuff, Mom. Make me a milkshake. Yeah. Let me have a sandwich. Let me have a sandwich, too. And digitize everything. She should. She really should. Yeah. But also it might be like lackluster. Back then, like I can't, I bet it was a mess. There would never have been a two camera. Like it would have been like a fifth grade, some singing or something, you know, something like that.

1:31:14An event. An event. There wasn't just random candid B-roll being shot like it is now. I don't think so. Yeah. But this is a ding, ding, ding because time is sad as we know. Uh-huh. The passage of time. Yeah. Father time. Yeah. Mother nature, father time. Father, because he's just so mean. He's strict. Yeah, he's strict. His word is final. He won't lay up. Like, he won't just, like, give us a break. No, his word is unwavering. When he says the time has passed, it has passed. I know. There's no going back. Yeah. So rude. Rigid, rigid. Very rigid. Yeah. Stuck in his ways. But I think it gives our life its meaning.

1:31:53Without it, what's the meaning? I have a wreck. Oh, let's hear it. And a curiosity. I hope you are. Are you watching Widow's Bay? Oh, yeah. I think I told, did I not tell you? No. Yes, I am. Okay, so pin in that. Okay. Well, pin in whichever, I guess. Which one do we want to move forward with? Whichever you'd like. We can come back to the other one. Widow's Bay, yes, I'm watching. I'm not caught up. Okay, no spoilers. So no spoilers. Everyone's dead. Great. Um, it's like a comedy horror show. Oh, the comedy is comedy, you know. Well, yes. It's so funny. Well, it's Katie Dippold, who is so funny.

1:32:36She, I used to watch her at UCB in my heyday all the time. Okay. She was a big star there. Yes. And, um, she created it and she is so funny. She wrote for Parks and Rec and she's just like, I think she's written some stuff for that Paul Feig has directed. She's just brilliant. And so when I saw that it was her, I was like, oh, I got to watch this. And it's fantastic. Well, what I was so pumped about is Nancy from Bless This Mess. Do you remember Nancy on Bless This Mess? She works at the museum, at the Widows Bay Museum. If you've seen the first episode, you saw her. Yeah, yeah. They go to the museum, and it's the history of the island.

1:33:21And what's so funny is, of course, witch burning is a real black mark on Salem. But when she's walking this reporter through the museum, they get to this bloody outfit from a burned witch. And she said, well, here's a source of great pride for us. We found him. We burned him. Her delivery of—we found him. Wait, so she was in Bless This Met. Yeah, she was one of our neighbors. Oh, good. And she was so—I loved her so much. She was so fun. She knitted me like a couple of scarves and stuff. She was a knitter. That's so cute. Yeah. Wait, who's the actress? Nancy Lenahan. Oh, cool. And she's so good.

1:34:02Well, it's also shot. A lot of it's directed by... Hero. Yeah, who did a lot of Atlanta. Yes. So it's just, it's brilliant. Powerhouse crew. Yes. Can't recommend it enough. It's so silly. It is, but it's also getting skilly. Scilly. It's Matthew Reese, one of our faves. Oh, we love him. God, he's so good. He's so, so good. A Movable Feast. That's the name of his boat in Manhattan. Oh, my God. Yeah. Check that episode out in the archives. Give it a listen. He's so charming. He was COVID, though. He wasn't in person. Was he? Yeah. God, that's crazy. So I really want to sit with him. Okay, so back to what I was going to say about time.

1:34:50Yeah. Okay. So yesterday, I can say this because it's been announced, Elizabeth came over because she's moving. Her and Andy are moving to France for a whole year. What's the opposite of we-wee? No, no. No, no. No, no. Not a we-wee. I know. And, like, it's going to be great for them. They're going to have so much fun. And it's a beautiful thing to do. And I'm very happy. Will they be podcasting from France? They will be. Okay. So that's so fun. Yeah. And like, it'd be very fun to listen along on their adventures. You know, that'll be great. But I hate it. You know, I really hate it. But then it's, you know, Elizabeth is kind, is a crier.

1:35:37Okay. Her tears come easy. Okay. And, you know, she like gets out of the car and she's like already like, I didn't bring, I didn't wear mascara like on purpose. I know I'm going to cry. This is to tell you that they're moving? No. Like it's just the last time I'll see her. Wait, they're moving tonight? I leave on Friday. Okay. And then they leave like a couple, they leave like a week later while I'm gone. Oh, yeah. So this is the last time I'm going to see her before they leave. Until you go visit in front. Where are they moving in from? What? Tell me about Bordeaux. That's the wine country, I guess.

1:36:13I don't know. Yeah. It's like there's wine there. Is it on a river? Should be. I don't know much about it. Okay. I've never been. How did they pick that place? Okay. These want to be so close to the wine? No. They don't even really drink much. So they went last summer. It's always been a dream of Elizabeth's to live in France. So last summer, they went to just - Test the waters? Yeah. They went to test the waters and try it out. And they loved it, but they had to come home a little earlier than expected because, unfortunately, Andy's father passed away. So they came home. They loved it, but I didn't think they loved it that much.

1:36:49Right. Like, I wasn't like, oh, like, they're unfinished business. Everywhere I'm at on vacation, I'm certain I want to live there for a year. I mean, everywhere I go, virtually. I know. So she—so I didn't expect this really. I thought they kind of got it out of their system last summer. Or like maybe they go back for another summer break. But like living for a whole year, I didn't expect it. And so anyway, she came over and she was like, I'm going to cry, you know, just. I've come here to cry. Yeah. And there was another friend there, Sophia, who's kind of a new friend. So it was good. I was like, well, Sophia's here.

1:37:29She'll like buffer. And Elizabeth was like, you know, she's kind of like, well, I don't. That's not going to stop me. And also, like, I don't need that. Yeah, let's go. Right. And so, you know, we talked a lot. And then. Does it make you nervous that she's going to cry because you feel obligated to cry in return? So, okay, this is what we started talking about because I was like. You felt pressure. Well, I think Elizabeth was like, you better cry. Oh, well, that's direct pressure. That's not even in your head. At one point she said that. And I was like, I'm not gonna. I said, I said, I'm not going to.

1:38:07Yeah. And Sophia was like, you better cry for her. Oh, wow. And I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. A lot of pressure. Oh, no. Oh, no. And I, you know, I didn't. Yeah, sure. I knew that. I didn't the whole, I didn't. And, you know, at the end. In 10 years, I think I've seen you cry like three or four times. Four of the seven cries. I've seen me cry like disproportionately than most people. Right. And even still, yes, not that often. Correct, yeah. Anyway, so I didn't cry at all. And then, you know, we were hugging by and I still wasn't crying. Were you trying to make yourself? Could you feel yourself, like, focusing on your eyes and stuff?

1:38:50A little, a little. She was like, wow, not even a little water in there. Yeah, not even a well up. Yeah, and I was like, well, it's there. It's there. It's on the inside. And it's a ding, ding, ding to the graduation, Delta's graduation, where everyone was crying and I wasn't crying. And everyone, and I was like, some people are performing here, but really they weren't. You know, they just cry. You were just self-conscious that you weren't crying. Yeah, of course. Yeah. And I, but I was sad at the graduation and I was sad last night. Yeah. But I have a problem. Look, I know this very well. I'm like, you know, deaths and people getting arrested and friends dying.

1:39:38And, yeah, I feel the pressure of someone, like, waiting for me to have this expected reaction. And then kind of once that occurs to you that you're supposed to, for me, trains left the station. There's no reaching the cry point because you're now self-conscious about not crying. Right. And that's just not the frame of mind to cry. I know. Like they say, you know, the trick in acting is to try your hardest not to cry. Exactly. I love that trick because I can do that. Yeah, yeah. But then, but I was never good at crying as an actor. I'm caught between wanting to give another recommendation, but also wanting to talk about an actor I saw that was using menthol.

1:40:21And I don't ever want it to be exposed of who. I use menthol in employee of the month. I would have felt unethical about doing that like in parenthood, but I did not feel unethical about doing it. Yeah, because it was a funny scene. I had won a ring competition and I thought it would be hilarious if I was just like uncontrollably sobbing at this victory. Yeah. And yeah, I used a lot of it. And my eyes were fucking on fire and I was going to spray more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I just don't think I cry when I'm sad. You cry when you're mad? I cry when I'm mad and frustrated. Frustrated. Frustrated.

1:41:04I cry. Wolf. No, never. I don't cry wolf. Liz is at the window. She was there. Oh, my God. She was there. I might cry right now because I'm being frustrated. I misunderstood. I don't want to frustrate you. Not before the break. Yeah. So, yeah, I think I cry when I'm angry and I cry when I'm frustrated and I cry when I'm embarrassed. That's. Oh, yeah. That's the first time I saw you cry. That's the first time I told you when I ran into the window. Yeah. I ran. I went into the car and then I cried. Oh, you held your crying until the car. Yeah. I mean, I was walking to the car. Oh, so it was probably it was probably starting immediately, but no one had.

1:41:47When you turn back, I thought I saw what was the beginning of a breakdown. I hope that could be wrong. I definitely thought, ooh, like who cares about banging in the glass? But the look was like, oh, we're going to have some crying. Yeah. And some people. What was the event that night? Someone was in town. Yes, Bob Mervac was in town. Oh, Bob Mervac was in town. And it was the first time I ever met him. It was a long time ago this happened. Yeah, yeah.

1:42:18And some people are quick triggers for me.

1:42:26Like, as I said, I've cried in front of you a fair amount. I've cried. My parents often can get me to cry. Well, then this is consistent. Dads. Yeah. I mean, Bill so far hasn't. He hasn't. Yeah. He will. I hope not. I don't want to cry in front of him. Okay. Will you let him hold you? No. I don't let my dads hold me. No. No, no, no. Yeah, so anyway, I just, but I did. She left, and I was like, God, like. I need to cry more. I can't. I just, I wish I did. I wish I had cried then. Yeah. But it wasn't going to happen. I don't cry out of sadness. I cry out of my heart being touched, as you know, a lot.

1:43:19Yes. Yeah. Me too. I think that's more, that's definitely more likely than sadness. Like if something's just like so overwhelmingly like sweet or beautiful, like life is beautiful. Yeah, yeah. I cry at life is beautiful. Oh, that's good. Not the movie, I've never seen it, but. Oh, just the beauty of life? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like sports moments. The last phase, I think, for me to be a complete crier is I have had two or three different moments in the last couple of years where I was so frustrated that I did have the feeling in my body of like, oh, if I could just ball right now, I would feel so much better at the end of this.

1:44:01Or sometimes there's like, there'll be the occasion where, again, in my mind, whether this is happening or not doesn't matter. I feel like all three of them are coming at me. and I am biting my tongue. You feel overwhelmed. Yeah, overwhelmed and maybe ganged up on and I'm biting my tongue because I don't want to make anything worse. And I do reach a point when I'm biting my tongue or I can feel my eyes are going to betray me. Like I'm going to start crying out of my anger and frustration. You should let yourself. Because then everyone will stop being mean to you. And be like, oh, maybe we should throttle back.

1:44:36Yeah, like, oh no, he's like crying. What's so funny is I think half the time they'd have no idea because they don't know necessarily when I'm, like, fighting my hardest not to get involved or to say something. That's really hard for me. Do you ever just decide to walk away? Like, I need a minute. Oh, God, yeah. I go upstairs. I, quote, go upstairs for something fucking all the time. Yeah, yeah. As I think it's a real patented dad move. Yeah, it's good to go upstairs as a dad. Or go out to the garage. I always have to go out to the garage and just do one thing and then I can return. Yeah, as soon as you need a minute.

1:45:15I like how generic I am. Some part of me I like that I'm like doing what all dads do. And then I'm, you know, it makes me feel like I grew up. Was your like quintessential image of a dad? Well, that's what I was going to say. I've never seen, I never saw my father parent in a relationship. I only saw him operate as a lone wolf and my mom and then my stepdads they didn't hold their tongue you know they yelled all the time and screamed and swore and said really nasty character assassinations of us a lot. but I've never seen the healthy version where it's like oh yeah dad's going out to the garage to check on you know a blank right and now he's back and he's now he's calm you know like I don't know interesting but I guess I've seen it in movies and in tv shows and I've seen it maybe in other people's family and I just know I'm a part of like a great tradition when I think of dads.

1:46:16The first image I think of is in a store, a dad just sitting in whatever seat there is, makeshift seat. There's always a dad sitting. I'll sit on the floor. Yeah. They're just sitting there waiting for everyone else to be, the mom and the daughter to be done shopping. I mean, we would all go to the outlet mall. How could he do it? I can't even do it. He wants to do it too. And then he's not going, most of the time he's not even going in any stores. He's just waiting outside the store while we go in store after store. Because shopping is miserable. But then why does he want to go? I don't know.

1:46:49To be a good dad. To spend time. That's right. Sitting and getting exhausted in stores. And it's so hot now. And watching the saved money disappear. Exactly. And he's just sweating out there. It's like actually so sweet that he's just like going. Real mensch. Yeah. Just going to these stores for no reason. Getting through it. And even he's never like let's go like he never says let's go he's thinking it over and over again and he's resisting i wonder if he's ever had a solemn tear you missed like and he's sitting in that chair it's just well it's just like he wants to go like oh god no like let's leave please let's leave but then he doesn't he already feels that that complete angst of being stuck somewhere he doesn't that's the thing about him he's really he's a better man than i am yeah well maybe it's his Indian-ness.

1:47:40I don't know, but like it's pretty wild. He just like really... He'll spend seven hours out with you guys. Yeah. And he doesn't buy one thing, right? No. He doesn't pick anything up. Fuck that. That's like being in an eight-hour long fucking cricket match. I couldn't do... Nothing's happening. He likes cricket. Maybe that's what... Well, he played. Formatted him to be so tolerant of boredom. I think they are just... I think Indian... Well, I shouldn't say. I don't know. I don't know. I just think... Well, maybe Indian Med from Kerala. They just, like, know to go along with the women. Yeah. And they're like, it's fine.

1:48:17Like, it's fine. Just let them do. I guess my question is. To keep it staying home. Yes. Why would any of the women want us there? I think he wants to be nearby. Because he only sees you on the weekends. And you guys want to spend the whole weekend shopping. Yeah. Although now when I go home, he doesn't really come with us. Like if we go to TJ Maxx, he doesn't come. Yeah, good. He just meets us at dinner or whatever. Yes. It's better. It's better. Do the lunches, drive two cars. He can stop at Home Depot. It's better. But, yeah. Can you imagine going to Home Depot with him for seven hours? No, I would never do that.

1:48:56Yeah. And think about how much pain. I mean, I did have to do that as a kid. It felt like seven hours, probably 20 minutes. Yeah, 20 minutes. Because that's how guys shop. They like already know what they want before they walk in. I hated it. I hated it. No, imagine, like, really put yourself in a situation where you were at Home Depot for seven hours, three and a half movies. Well, he must not hate it or he wouldn't come. Or he's just, like, he's, like, a monk. He can, like, just ignore the pain. He can, I do think, like, really just, like, he just, like, doesn't complain about anything. Yeah, it's so nice.

1:49:28It's pretty wild. Yeah, it's hot. It's attractive. I guess, like. That's what you should be as a guy. Yeah. No complaining. That's right. My therapist said to me, you should never say what about me? That's not your domain. Well, I mean. And I like, that's right. Well, no. You're still a person. But he doesn't. I've never heard him say that. Yeah. It's not. You can do that. You are free to do that. Yeah. And then there are certain outcomes of that. And that's not, I don't want that outcome. Yeah, but you also don't want resentment. You don't. Well, I'm not going to get resented for. No, no, no.

1:50:04You could build a resentment like nobody's thinking about me. No one's even noticing me. No one cares what I think. Well, you're not allowed to do that either because that's not grown up behavior either. Right. That's going to be hard for some people. Yeah. But like in pursuit of being a man, the definition my therapist and I have for me as a man. Yeah. Includes shutting the fuck out. No resentments. No pity party. No. What about me? That's the strength that you're supposed to exude as a man. you're supposed to bring strength to this and that's we think that's just screaming and shoving other men no no the strength is restraint the restraint yeah well this is good because it's it's the father's day is it this Sunday yeah Rob are you being spoiled you're traveling too yeah don't you feel like traveling nullifies the event yeah I am my birthday always is right on it too right buy it.

1:51:01Oh. So you get triple screwed. That's Saturday, Sunday. Okay. What would you want to do this year? Well, I don't know if it was last year or the year before, but I hosted a Father's Day party and it was tournaments. It was a volleyball tournament, a pickleball tournament, and sideline shoulder massages. That's nice. And food. And it was really quite fun. Yeah. I didn't know about sidelines You didn't know about the food? Yeah When you weren't playing pickleball You were getting a shoulder massage That's cool Right? I want one Because for Mother's Day I bring in all these people You do, yes And so We're not gonna get pedicures and manicures Although we could and they're fun They are fun I did And you kind of need one I need one?

1:51:50Well, you always complain about your toes You're always complaining about them I don't even know if I would, in good conscience, let someone touch my toes. They probably want to. They're like, you know what? This is like Everest. You know, like they really, they want at them and they want to see what they can do. Remember I spoke about, we could look this up now. Uh-huh. Rob, do you, can you control the TV? Yep, sure can. Will you look up Malala and Zarna Garg? Oh, Zarna, she's very funny. Do you know her? Remember I was telling you about the video? Well, someone was nice enough to tell me what video I was watching.

1:52:32Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, she's very funny. She's, people really love her. We might be able to connect it to Dax's Mac studio. What if porn just popped up? Oh, I love it. A man and a horse. That's your thing these days? That's my thing, yeah. Nice. I'm watching exclusively men and horses. but only kissing oh you draw the line yeah oh wow i gotta figure out how to get this audio to go through there though oh boy this is what happens if you hit play let's find out yeah no audio yeah all right never mind okay we're not as techie as we appear to be i guess i could have just looked it up on my phone it would have been a lot easier so malana i'm the world's leading almost therapist whatever your problem is i can solve it just tell me what it is let's go when i I was 15.

1:53:20I was shot by the Taliban in Pakistan. Okay, that happens. And then I moved to a different country in the UK for my surgeries. Okay, that sounds fun. That sounds fun. New culture, new environment. I joined the school, but I couldn't make any friends. I was really lonely. Oh, because you were the problem? So by the end of my school time, I had only made one friend. One friend, that's sad. Sad for the friend. was stuck with you. I was joining college at Oxford. I said, I'm going to make as many friends as possible. Oh, Oxford? You went to Oxford? Yeah. What happened? You didn't get into Cambridge?

1:54:01That was my dream place to go to. Oh, see, right there, we just identified the first problem. You have dreams. Why? You know, I'm really sorry to just bring this up, but you sound like you complain a lot. You're coming across a little whiny about the whole girls need to be this and that situation. Like you got shot once, you're fine The other side of your face looking great As far as I can tell Everything is fine, you're welcome The other side of your face You're fine, thank you, you're welcome So you got shot in the face I love that accent It's so pleasing Do you like it or is it making you nervous?

1:54:42I mean it makes me nervous obviously It makes me nervous When you listen to it But then you won't be able to help yourself. To do it. There's something so pleasing and melodic about it. I mean, it's very. Malala. Dick. It is melodic. It's sing-songy. That's the, I think is maybe a pejorative way of saying it. Maybe. No, but it is. But it's sing-songy. It has like a real. That's as close. That's like as safe as I can.

1:55:14You want me to, it's Father's Day. You want me to let you do it? No, no, no. Go ahead. No, it's not appropriate. You want to see me cry? No, no, no. That's not my Father's Day wish. What is? Horse porn. Great. We can make that happen. Really passionate kissing between a man and a horse. Oh, my God. All right. Let's do some facts. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Thank you. The one we saw on Instagram that time was green. Yeah, that was like a, I won't bore you, a Restomod version of one. So they were free to make it any color they want. Now they can't. They had already altered it.

1:56:24Now they can't. Well, no, if you have a mint condition, unaltered, you don't want to change the paint color. Oh. You would be degrading the value. So none were ever made green originally. Correct. That was, and nor they had put like a cool engine in it and bigger, you know, they did what I do to cars. Right. So am I supposed to want an original or a souped up one? It's a tricky one because those cars I'm ballparking, but I think a Gullwing 300, that's got to be like a three to five million dollar car, I think. And if you chopped it all up and put all this cool stuff in it, it would probably be worth like 800 ,000.

1:57:02So you would be losing two and a half million dollars of the value to have the car you wanted. Yeah. Like if I take my Lincoln, it's not going to, it wasn't worth a lot of money before I did all that shit to it. Yeah. None of my cars. But now it's worth more, it feels like. Oh, you're saying because it wasn't worth a lot. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you're not getting it to be completely pristine and original. Well, this is interesting because I've never been in this position normally. Normally I'm on the other side of this where I like don't care about the value. Like I want to like what I'm driving in and what it looks like.

1:57:38That's how I feel. Yeah. That's why I don't get those kind of cars. All right. I would never want to get a kind of car that I'm making it less valuable by making it better. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. All right. I'd rather just buy. So if like Toto and Susie buy me one. Uh-huh. And then I have you soup it up. Uh-huh. They'll probably be mad about that. They will be bummed. Yeah. You made a couple million dollars disappear. Okay. Now I'm in a pickle. Okay. Anyway, she was amazing. She was. She was amazing. Sounds like a fun family too. I know. And remember she was talking about Isle of Man TT? Yes. That started last weekend.

1:58:19Did you watch any? And Brad was there. Oh. And Channing. And they were filming. No. Yeah. For their new thing. I think they're making a movie about, I don't know if it's both of them, But I think Channing was filming something for a movie about Isle of Man. Oh, my God. I wonder if it's a doc or a— And Pitsky was there. Wow. I doubt it'd be a doc with Channing in it. What would be the point, right? Oh, he was starring. I thought you meant like he was, like, directing it. No, he was on a motorcycle in leathers. Oh. I'm presuming filming him, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Cool. Okay, some facts. The Topo Chico shortage.

1:58:58Mm-hmm. Yikes. Crisis. Yeah. Okay. A nationwide shortage of Topo Chico original mineral water is affecting store shelves and bars in the U.S. Coca-Cola suspended production of its flagship sparkling water at its Monterey, Mexico facility to perform well stabilization and facility upgrades. Supplies are expected to remain extremely limited through late 2026. Yeah, this is a big boy. I feel like the well went dry. I know. You're not telling us. I know. CNN said America's running out of Topo Chico mineral water. Oh, we love Topo Chico. I know. We have bottles in that fridge just accruing value. What are we going to do when they're—I know.

1:59:39We're going to auction them. Remember people paid an insane amount of money for original Coke? Oh, yeah. When they switched to new Coke, people were spending like preposterous amounts of money on a 12-pack. This is just like Liberti. It is. Oh, my God. And we're sitting on a stockpile of at least six or eight. I think two. Two? Two? Two? We're down to two. Oh, no. Not even one for each of us. Fuck. No, no, no. This is horrible news. Okay. Oh, if you drink sparkling water, do you not have to pee as much? Sure. That was Toto's theory. It actually says fizzier sparkling water contains dissolved carbon dioxide.

2:00:17This results in an acidic solution that may increase urinary urgency, irritate your bladder. Irritate your bladder? Our advice is to limit your intake of one of these to one glass a day. Oh, wow. I think, well, Toto's only drinking bubbly water. But look, do I believe that what you just read or just looking at the man? Whatever he's doing works. It's true, but we don't know about his peeing. Proof is in the pudding. That is true. Do you have any sparkling water? I don't want to wake up every night to go pee and wake up and then I can't concentrate on the team. I'm the cutest little boy ever made.

2:00:55Watch me jump. Watch me play. Oh. Do you think he ever sings that song? It sounds so different. Oh, okay. I said something out of school. I left it in, but I want people to know I know it was wrong. What did you leave it in? So her grandfather was paralyzed, remember? Or from the waist down. And then he got in an accident and broke his ankle or something. Okay. And I said like, oh, I mean, like doesn't really matter or something. But it does. Then I looked it up. Like if you're paralyzed and you break your leg, do you still have to do anything? And you do. It still requires medical treatment. I was like maybe if there's no pain, it could just heal on its own.

2:01:45That's definitely the silver lining of getting a broken leg when you're paralyzed. Right. But it's not nothing. It's not nothing. But it's definitely less than if you're fully able-bodied. Yeah. The current F1 car, you said, weighs about 980 kilograms. A current Formula One car has a minimum weight limit of 768 kilograms. This limit applies to the car and driver combination but excludes fuel. 2026 reset. The current generation of cars is noticeably lighter than the previous era, dropping 32 kilograms from 800 kilograms minimum seen in 2025. Ask it how many kilograms of fuel they carry. I think they have like 100 kilos of fuel.

2:02:29Fuel does an F1 car. I think filled up there in the 900s. Okay. It carries a maximum of 110 kilograms of fuel. Okay. Because mid-race refueling is banned, this maximum amount must last the entire race, taking the cars about 300 kilometers. Did my Botox guy say I have a thick neck? I don't think he used the word thick like I did, but he did comment. He basically was like, you have really strong muscles. But he was saying that because the neck was thick. So he said you have really strong muscles and you heard my neck's too thick? Well, no, because we're trying to make it smaller. The whole point of the Botox was to make this.

2:03:11I'm trying to imagine if you succeed at giving yourself a pencil neck, how wild that'll be. Well, it's more, it's not really about the neck so much as it is like this in here. Yeah, exactly. But this is like very strong. Wow. Your elite muscle mass is all in your mass storage. Exactly. He grabs it. He grabbed it and said that. Oh, he manhandles you. I gave him permission. Okay. I like him a lot. He processes you like a chicken. Yeah, he does. And I appreciate it. Okay. Was she two tenths or one tenth away when she finished that practice session? You said two. Yeah, 0.2. That's what I see as well.

2:03:52Kimmy and Max's qualifying lap at Monaco, second to last qualifying lap, 0.003. No. 3 ,000th. I can't even. No. 0.003 thousandths of a second. How can they even measure that? That is so. I mean, losing pull. No, that makes me want to die, actually. By something that's way less than a blink of an eye. Exactly. Way, way less. You can't even do it. We can't even like. You initiate the blink of an eye and you're at 0.003. Whoa. That's the margin, man. It blows my mind. You have two different teams. Each team has 1 ,000 employees. the cars are completely one-offs. They're not the original part. Everything's original for each team.

2:04:42All these variables. I know. And they land.003 often. That is so crazy. That doesn't feel real. I know. Okay. Oh, okay. Were those the facts? Yeah, those are the facts. We have a story. Yeah, we have a little bit of a story about Susie, which is when we walked her out, Lincoln was hiding in the bushes. She knew Susie was here and she wanted to meet her. Yeah. She's super in F1 now, which I thought was so adorable. Yes. So she comes out and she meets Susie and they're chatting. And Susie says, like, who's your favorite driver? And she says, Kimmy, of course, Kimmy Antonelli. And for people who aren't following F1, there's the cutest human being on planet Earth is currently destroying.

2:05:22He's 19 years old. Kimmy Antonelli, he's Italian. He lives with his family at home in San Marino. Oh, my God. And he's a little boy. Yeah. And he's dominating. And he's so cute and friendly. So anyways, Lincoln says Kimmy. And Kimmy drives for Mercedes. Right. Which Toto is the team principal of. Yes. And Susie said, oh, well, we're in town because we have a Mercedes event tomorrow. Would you want to meet Kimmy? Yeah. And Lincoln immediately started crying. Wow. It's so powerful. I was like, I love that. Her response was just to start crying. Yeah. It's like an overwhelming offer. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

2:06:10So we went. So then we were going to go to the event. And then the next day you and I were recording all day long. So it was like I wasn't able to connect with Susie. But all these flurry of texts I had missed I now see. By the way, they all do WhatsApp, right? Oh, yeah. Which I forget to check. So anyway, Susie's like, okay, bad news. The event's 21 and over. So Lincoln can't really come to the event. but we're going to be hanging in this hotel room for an hour before the event. You want to come by the hotel room? And I'm like, well, this is so much better. Yeah. Than like being at a big noisy event and standing around awkwardly.

2:06:44And so I go, yeah, absolutely. Tell me what time. It was like at five. And I'm like, perfect. I'll be there. It was downtown. So then they come in and I tell Lincoln like, okay, so this is the situation. It's not the event, but we're going to go hang. And she goes, no. Yeah. No, no, I can't. That's too much. It was too stressful for her. And I'm like, listen, love, I don't really push you to do much, but you're going to, we're going to meet Kimmy Antonelli. Yeah. This opportunity ain't coming around ever again. There's so much funny stuff. We ride down there on the motorcycle because traffic's fucking horrendous and we got to go downtown.

2:07:18So it's like, we're going to take the motorcycle. We get to the event. It's at the Soho House warehouse, which I didn't even know they had. It's so cool. There's a really cool warehouse downtown that the Soho House has. Oh. So we parked the motorcycle. It's a pain in the ass to try to get two helmets in the back bag, the top box on the motorcycle. So, of course, I'm just going to carry them. And Lincoln's like, no, no, put the helmets away. And I go, wait, why? I don't want to. I don't want us to have helmets. You know, like the stakes were so high. But that's cool. I told her that. I go, what are you talking about?

2:07:51It's so much cooler to walk in. We're both holding helmets. Yeah. You ride motorcycles. Yeah. No. And here's where as a dad, you just got to go like, okay. That's what she wants. Yeah, this is a great lesson she's teaching me. Yeah. She's like, she's wrong? Right. I know she's wrong. Yeah. And who cares? This is how she wants to do it. Yeah. So we put the motors, we put the helmets away. We're not even going to talk about the fact that we were, when we can't talk about the fact that we were four seconds there. Oh, my God. We go into this room, and I'm also, look, I hope I'm really conscious of the fact that, like, I don't want to bum a famous person out.

2:08:23I don't want to complicate his downtime before he has to do this event with me and my kid, you know? And so I'm planning on being like, whatever, man. We'll talk to Toto and Susie or whatever. But we walk in. He immediately comes up and introduces himself. He's so likable and outgoing and kind. He engages Lincoln right away in conversation. And they sit on a couch. Yeah. And just chat. And he's showing her pictures on the phone. He's talking about how hot the race cars. And I'm just hearing little glimpses. And it's just so cute to hear my little girl like, oh, I know. You're up so hot. You know, just how she's just responding.

2:09:03And so then Toto's videoing them. Yeah, secretly. Secretly. Yeah. And he's like, shut up, shut up. Because I'm talking to the other guy from Austria. He's like, shut up, shut up. He goes, we're going to show them this video at their wedding and embarrass them. It's so cute. In that moment, I was like, oh, my God. what if Lincoln married Kimmy Antonelli? And then I just thought, oh my God, what if my son-in-law is an F1 driver that fucking fun will have? And not only just an F1 driver, like an incredible one. An incredible, soon-to-be-allegend F1 driver. Oh, I really hope she marries him. I was starting to lock into how these kings felt in France.

2:09:43Exactly. Where it's like you're gonna pair up your kid with somebody that you're gonna love this family. I know, see, it's easy to do. Slippery slow, yeah. It's easy to arrange marriage. It's all a thing. That's so cute. It was the sweetest night. And I just, I want to scream from the rooftops this generosity that this young man showed to my daughter. I am so grateful for. He's such a little gentleman. I love him. He's so kind and sweet. And it just was a real fucking. It's incredible. Gift of all gifts. Thank you, Susie, for the invite. Thank you, Susie. What an incredible. Oh, one more funny Toto thing.

2:10:21so then they had to go do stuff they're in and out of the room right yeah what's funny is all the Kimmy stuff happened before Susie ever arrived so then soon as Kimmy had to leave Link's like okay let's go let's go like basically like we got the yes you know like it was a success let's get out of here before I embarrass myself kind of thing yeah I understand the stress so then we Link and I are leaving we're departing and we're getting on the elevator and he goes where are you going we have the event and I go oh no it's 21 and over and he goes no no no no you You're staying. Come here. Everyone out.

2:10:51Come on. You're staying. And we go, no, we don't. We don't want the rules broken. All of a sudden, she got homework. He's like, no, those aren't the rules. He got into total mode. Like, you're coming to this event. Oh, my God. We did not. We went home. Do you know who was at the event? Brad Pitt. And that's why. Kim Kardashian. KK? You ever heard of Kardashian? Not like that. Tricky, too, because she's dating Louis Hamilton. He's at Ferrari. Oh, yeah. but she was at the Mercedas interesting you know what it might have been a different card oh no I'm not sure if it was Kim or Chloe or Kendall or oh don't say that because we want all of them on the show okay Bernice um okay well uh that sucks you didn't get to hang out with Brad that's fine probably the moment he was gonna ask you to be in his movie he's like hey are you busy next weekend I'm going to Isle of Man TT to shoot this movie I need you but I was there but it was great because the whole night was for Lincoln.

2:11:50You don't want to bring helmets? Great. You don't want to pretend we took a cab here? Cool. You want to get out of here? Okay. Wow. Well, what a good time. I love her. I love her so much. We love her. We absolutely love her. And I hope Lincoln and Kimmy get married and put them out there. We're doubling down on that. I don't mind. I'm signing off. Yeah. All right. Love you.

2:12:18Thank you.