Tara Stoinski Returns (primatologist)

23:30It is a shit job. It's a shit job. Yes. The adolescents are having fun. The ladies are having fun. He doesn't have to take that job. He has to or he won't reproduce. He's so exciting to take that job. Yeah, I think Pablo was like, hey, man, I'm going to let Cansby take a lot of the stress, I'm going to support him and be around and reap all the benefits. Yeah, you could play a different game. But maybe take a little bit of the pressure off, yeah. Pablo's leading with charisma. Like a human, you can see charisma in Pablo's face. There's a line in the movie that's like, guerrilla males don't lead by strength alone.

24:00And that is so true. Obviously, you need to have a certain size and strength. And part of the reason that Abuzu was able to take over was that Gitarasi was sick. And so he had a few days where he wasn't well. He was kind of staying behind the group. And those males are smart, right? And Ibuzu saw that and he went in and took advantage of that. What do they do? It's gnarly. And again, back to Mfuru. Mfura? Mfura. Mfura. Good luck, Dax. Mfura. Look at it again. He's taken a couple from Ibuzu before Ibuzu challenges Gichirazzi. So his whole bottom of his chin is just sliced open. The full top of his head where you can see his skull is just wide open from the incisors.

24:41So it's just these two 400-pound gorillas just kind of wrestling, but there's tons of biting going on. And they captured it. That was the crazy thing. So just as a funny aside, when we first got on the call with these folks, so the director was the director of Chimp Empire. That footage is, that's come out since you and I. Yes, it has. And I don't know if you saw, but like two days ago. There's a big war going on. Yeah, that's the war. Oh, it is. Eight years. Eight years this war. 300 chimps are fighting. There's already 20 dead, I think. It's been an eight-year war. It's crazy. But so they had filmed chimps.

25:15The executive producer had worked on Disney Nature and filmed chimpanzee movie. And so it was very funny because one of the first things they said to us, and you have to imagine this in a lovely British accent, which I'll pretend to do, but I can't really do. Tara, do gorillas actually do enough to make an entire film about them? Veronica and I are on the phone and we're like, what? How can you say that to gorilla people? Yeah, you're like, this is our whole life. But you're kind of right. They are like big cows in a way, right? Like they eat, they sleep. So they show up to film and literally within like two days of filming, this dominant shift starts to happen.

25:49Do you think these guys are starting it? What's his name, Reed? James Reed. That's a good question. Yeah. Says he's getting pretty lucky. He shows up with the chimps and now we see this hundred on hundred troop fight. But they say this vision that's happening, I was just reading about it this morning, this vision that's happening in the chimps when the community fully splits, they think is about a one in every 500 year event. No. That's when they look at the genetics. What? It's crazy. Are they documenting that? Yes. I think they kind of came in sort of in the middle of it. I don't know when they filmed Chimp Empire exactly, but it was already going on when they started filming.

26:22There had been the split and it was gaining momentum, but it was a smaller group. And then they were starting to challenge the main group. What's crazy to me about that is that, so the way that chimps live, they have what they call a community and the whole community is sort of never together. So they all associate in this community. But today I'm hanging out with you. Tomorrow you're with Kristen and I'm with Dax. And then the next day, all four of us are hanging out. And then eventually this community split. And now the Western side is coming back to kill their former community members. Oh my God, why?

26:53And this had only been documented once before with Jane Goodall. But at the time with Jane Goodall, she had provisioned the chimps so that they would get used to her. So she had kind of like put bananas out so that they would get used to her presence. And so there was a lot of criticism. Oh, you caused all this aggression by putting this high value resource in the middle. So there was some skepticism about whether this was like really natural. But this is completely natural. Why? Just no one knows? No one really knows. Yeah. What's really interesting and cool about gorillas is we've been able to show that it's not like that at all.

27:27So we have families that fission. And when they come back together, they can be aggressive, particularly like if they're in their most prized part of their range. But for the most part, they'll come together, they'll play, they'll interact with each other. And this can be 10 years after a split. So a lot of the composition has changed. And so I think chimps are really interesting for looking at more of the warfare side of humans and gorillas may be more for this kind of multi-level society where you can maintain relationships, even if it's not in your core family group that you're with on a day-to-day basis.

27:59We could also get into, there's a lot of explanations for that. A, the groups are much, much bigger for chimps, right? They're like 100-member groups. They have a much different mating strategy, right, where all the males are competing with each other, hence the enormous testicles we talked about last time. And she said you can't even find a gorilla's testicles. If we don't see the genitalia of a baby gorilla right after it's born because they're so fuzzy, We generally oftentimes don't know until they reach 10 or 11 if it's a male. Because males and females are the same exact size in gorillas until eight.

28:30And then their growth charts really diverge. So we have had these females that were really interested in mating when they were like 11, 12. And then suddenly we're like, oh, because they're not females. They're males. So that's how difficult it is. They also go through one of the biggest growths from birth, right? So they're born at four pounds and become 450. That'd be like humans becoming 800 pounds. It's crazy. Oh, my God. So, yeah, the gorillas showed up. We were worried, are they going to do a lot? And I think at the time they thought they might use a lot of archival footage and then intersperse it with the modern day.

29:01And then they got so much. I mean, it's the most the gorillas have ever been filmed. I think they had 250 filming days. But Rwanda's really strict about time spent with the gorillas to protect the gorillas. So that 250 days was one hour a day. At a time. Oh, my God. One hour at a time. So to be there and be lucky enough to get these moments on film is just crazy. Almost impossible. Yeah. And these gorillas, the filmmakers don't stay in the forest. So they're in and out. They have one of the highest elevation ranges. So they're climbing 3 ,000 to 4 ,000 feet a day with their equipment to get to the gorillas, filming them coming back out.

29:35So back to this story. So Mbuzu has really bullied Imphura a bunch of times. And it's really, really sad. And as he gets bullied more, he starts getting excluded more. From the group. He had this one Ubi little infant. I don't know. Infant? Child? Yeah, he was too. He was infant. Was his buddy. And they played. And he was playing. And the mom came over and basically looked at him. He was like, you can't play with the baby anymore. And he knew. No, this is horrible. It's horrible. It's so heartbreaking. And then he is intermittently in and out. He's on the fringe. And then he'll wander. There's a year of him just being in this kind of purgatory of he's not really in the group.

30:15but he's still trying to check in with the group. And in that time, Ibuzu does attack... Gichirasi. Gichirasi. When he was sick, as you said. When he was sick, yeah. And at first, the females still really align with Gichirasi. They follow him. He loses the fight. Gichirasi loses the fight. Yes, Gichirasi loses the fight. But even despite the fact that he lost the fight, the females stay... Teta? Teta. She stays, and she's kind of the leader of the females. She stays very aligned with him. And so he can keep his dominance. I think these females are really smart. They need these males to protect their infants.

30:49Right. Because they are susceptible generally from males from other families that will come in and target their babies. So Gichirazi's health was not great. And they probably could see the writing on the wall. Right. And so they did transfer allegiance to Abuzu. But Gichirazi stayed in the group. Oh, okay. And did sort of what Pablo had done. Stayed in the group and helped support the group and keep that group together. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. That's smart. Not checking the pockets of your jeans before doing laundry.

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34:42and what's kind of interesting too monica is abuzu goes from this scowl and he's so menacing looking and it's funny because once he has the title i don't know unless i'm imagining or projecting he can relax and he's now more playful with some of the infants and his just whole demeanor changes he doesn't seem to be bullying anyone else what about that other guy well this is what the craziest moment is. Yeah. Okay, and I got to ask you. Okay, so Ubuzu finally reproduces, but he reproduces with a very important female, and this is to answer your question from 10 minutes ago. So explain what happened with her.

35:18The young gay. The young gay. So what's interesting, I thought of you, because she is a female that moved into the Pablo family. So males can't move between families, but females can. So she moved into Pablo's family from the Sousa group, which is the group that you saw when you went to Rwanda. Oh, wow. Yeah. Maybe you met her. I met her. She probably wasn't bored. She was young. Child bride. Females will usually leave their family around nine. She left at six. Oh, my God. Which is pretty young. And it's oftentimes hard. It's a little bit like human society. Like when a new female comes in, they get a little bit bullied by the other females because it's kind of competition.

35:53The males want to pay a lot of attention to them, et cetera. Yeah. Well, also just something new. Yeah, something new. Yeah, yeah. Oh, boy. But she gets pregnant and she has a baby and that automatically elevates your status because everyone wants to be around the baby. They love babies. They love babies. It's so cute. But it's all documented her coming in and it's scary. They just walk over. How are they doing this without words? I don't understand. She just starts kind of being at a distance, then closing that gap. And then she can figure out and delineate that it's Tata that is the alpha. So slowly she works her way over to her.

36:31And then Teta lets her play with one of her babies. And she's like, okay, I'm solid. Then Mbuzu is now the champ. And she gets into estrus. So they have a little baby. And again, now she's in the group. She's in the group. Okay, I have so many questions about your theories on this. So then the bullied one, Imphura, comes. Well, we don't know this yet. What we know is her baby's killed. And it is. Well, this is what happens when you exclude people. I mean. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. They do bad stuff. Yes, but here's what's crazy, and I wanted to know. Buzu was out mating with a woman. He was distracted.

37:08He was cheating. I got nine things right in this little section. One is, chip males are trying to blast all day long. Hey, there's a leopard over there. You know, they're constantly, because they're competing. But now, interestingly, because Mbuzu has all access, and there's nine of them and one of him, he seems pretty disinterested. that the female who's in estrus is like, she's got some leaves. She's like, check out my leaves. And she's doing all this stuff. And he's literally staring at her. And finally, like, all right. And I'm like, that's already upside down from the chimps. Do you find that those males are disinterested in sex more than other animals?

37:44The females put on a show. Like, they come and they strut. They're begging. And they have, like, their sexy face they do. And the males are like, okay, fine. They're walking bipedally. Well, you said because it elevates their status to have a baby. To have a baby, yeah. So that makes sense. And also if their penises are too tiny. So he's off doing that. And then Mfuro comes and kills this baby. We don't know it, but everyone in the group knows that the baby's been killed. All the females are gathered around. They're mourning it. And you can see that Mbuzu, he knows he fucked up. Yeah. And he could lose the confidence.

38:20They do. The thing about mountain gorillas, of the four types of gorillas, they're really the only ones that live in these multi-male groups. So if you look at the other three types, they generally just have one adult male. Because they live in this forest with tons of food, their social structure is different, but I don't think like it's caught up with them evolutionarily. So there's not supposed to be all these males living together. And so they haven't quite figured it out yet. The dominant male normally does most of the siring, but younger males can do it. And I think we talked about this last time that they have this vocalization they do when they copulate.

38:53And these younger males will sneak off with the females and they're hidden in the bushes. But they still make this vocalization. Like, they can't not make it. Yeah, we all understand. And the dominant male is like, oh, wait, what's happening? And you're going to get smacked for that, even if it happens. Like, they're not trying to let that happen, right? No, unless it's really young females, they generally will. Because a lot of times those females might have been their daughter, number one, the dominant male's daughter. Or the females go through this period of adolescent sterility where they're copulating, but they don't actually get pregnant.

39:23and so one strategy a dominant male could have would be to let these younger guys practice when it's not really any cost to him because some males will stay in the group they're born in their whole life and that's when you get the Pablo-Cansby situation and those groups fare really well because if the dominant male dies you've got someone right there to keep the group together. Other males strike out on their own and we found that what decides whether or not a male will stay is number one, does he get to practice copulating? So having that opportunity to practice is important, even if he's not necessarily making babies.

39:56And number two, what I think is really interesting is if his mom is still in the group. So even these 400 pound males, they don't like hang out with their moms, but their moms are probably a social lubricant for them, like giving them access to the dominant male. So if you don't have your mom and you're not getting to practice, you're much more likely to say, well, I'm just going to strike out on my own and see if I can attract some females to join me from another family. And this would be Imphora. Imphora, yeah. Okay, so what's wild in this part, I don't know, there's some kind of dissonance between how smart they are and the fact that they don't have language.

40:28So the baby's dead. What you can also see, Monica, if you look closely, they don't call it out, but she clearly fought to save the baby because she's injured. And she still has the baby. And she still has the baby. And they will hold those babies for long periods of time, like weeks. Too long. Oh, my God. And so everyone knows this has happened. And Boozoo's like, I fucked up. I could lose my group. But she can't tell them who did it. It's so crazy. It's like they're so smart and they're reading such nuanced. Can't they just like go up to them like. Yeah, they're reading these incredibly nuanced moments perfectly.

41:01You can tell they're comprehending it all. And they don't have at least a hand sign for each other. So she can't tell. So no one knows. And then Mfura shows himself. and the look on her face, they all see and they know instantly it was him. Immediately, Abuzu goes in and attacks him. Now, here's the crazy thing, and I'm curious. The second Gichirasi, he runs in and joins. And as he's running in to join, I yell to my kids like, oh my God, who's he going to help? Because he was just overthrown. Like a chimp. might have helped the other. So what would be your expectation in that situation? Is that all shocking or does that make total sense?

41:49It makes sense to me that he would go for Ibuzu and help Ibuzu. Because Ibuzu is now the established leader and Imphura is in this troublesome, he's had bad behavior. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's better off aligning himself. The females have already aligned themselves with Ibuzu. He's going to be much better off on the right side of history. Yeah. But again, he's reading that scenario and Imphura is now big. He's not the undersized version. He was. So now it's like it's a dangerous situation. But he's old and it's like starting over with this new guy. Like that doesn't make sense. Yeah. All to say they obviously.

42:21They kill him. They don't. And I don't know how he didn't die in that situation. Yeah, no. They didn't kill him. But basically it sort of pushed him. Said we don't really want you in the group. And then went so far as to. In the past they would let him just leave. And this time they led a mission to chase him clear out of there. When the researchers are watching this or obviously the filmmakers are selfish and in it for themselves. Is anyone like, you need to step in? I mean, I know you can't, but like. It's so hard. Yeah. It's so, so hard. I was thinking about that with this chimp situation as well.

42:53I always think you could probably take our discussion and put people names on it. And it could be a human story, right? Like all the intrigue and the drama and she did this and he did that. And then to have to sit and watch this happen. It's really, really difficult. cult. You're trying to be the impassioned or observer. Dispassionate. Dispassionate observer. And it's really hard. But, you know, you want the best genes to survive. That's going to be the best thing for the species in the long run. So, we're just there to watch. But it's tough. Yeah, because, again, in anthropologists, we've learned the hard way numerous times.

43:23When they have intervened, they have often caused far more collateral damage than they initially... But it's like you're seeing a little baby get killed. I know. It's going to be so hard not to just be like send it dark that way. Well, and let me tell you the follow-up to this now. So the filming stopped two years ago. And in that time, Gitchirasi has, we assume, died. So he disappeared. We searched for him for months, but couldn't find him. So yeah, so he's now left the group. The good news is there are two younger boys that are coming up, one who's the brother of Abuzu that will hopefully continue to support him.

43:57But there was another infant death right at the end of filming that we weren't able to capture. We weren't sure what had happened, but the thought was that Infura had killed that infant. He's killed four infants in total. He keeps coming back and then killing them and leaving? Infanticide is a pretty common reproductive strategy in gorillas, but it's always directed towards infants that are not in your family. Right. We've only had two other instances in 60 years where an infant was killed by a male within its own group. Two in 60 years. Oh, my God. So for this guy to kill four kids. and there were other infants that were born in the group that he didn't kill, and they were born to his aunts.

44:38So that's really interesting as well. Okay, great. So I have several questions about what we think Mfuru's motivation is. For me, right away, I thought it was interesting that the first infant he killed was twofold, I could see, motivation. One is it's Mbuzu's offspring who just kicked him out, And then secondly, I know this is probably too much human projection, but it's an offspring of an outsider who has been accepted by the group. And he was an insider that had been thrown out. And it's just not hard to imagine that he hated her and Mbuzu. And I'm just wondering, do we play armchair psychologists with them?

45:22What do you think is going on? What's your best guess? My best guess is that when these females move into a family group, like I was saying earlier, it's a tentative time for them because they're not like fully integrated. And what we will see and actually what Imfora tried to do later on after the movie finished was the young males view that as their moment. Like, okay, before these females settle in, let me kind of herd them off and form my own group with them. So I wonder if there was a piece of him that was like, hey, if her infant, because when a female has a baby, she is not interested in a male for another four years.

45:55because she's busy taking care of that baby. She doesn't cycle, et cetera. So she's kind of off limits to him now. But if he kills that baby, maybe she'll be like, hey, I'm not so safe in this group. My infant wasn't safe in this group. I'm going to go off with this male. So it may have been trying to increase his chances to take her and form his own group because we did have two females transfer in. He did successfully kind of take them off, but I think they realized we don't really want to be with you. And they came back. Oh my God. So now we haven't seen him in a bit. We don't know where he is.

46:26We're very happy for the moment because we have young babies in there and we want them all to be safe. Because Pablo's group, since filming started, so about the last four years, has had eight babies and only three have survived. So four were killed, one was a stillborn, and three have survived. So we don't like those numbers. Usually about 75 % of kids survive, and this is, what, about 30%. We want to see that group kind of stabilize. Okay, now I don't know if this is counterproductive or sacrilegious, but I do want to get into the weird overlap. I do think it's fascinating how similar they are to us in many respects.

46:58And I have to say with Mfuru, I'm never going to say it right. That's why he kills. Yeah. They gave him. What else was he going to do? Again, since his behavior now doesn't follow a mating strategy, we would have to just say it's kind of like a mental pathology what's happening with him. And I cannot help but see the parallel between the kid that's just completely bullied into oblivion and shows up at the school with a guy. I've been thinking that this whole time. It's funny because coming in, I'm like, okay, what kind of questions is Dax going to ask me, right? Because I remember hearing when you talk about Chimp Empire a lot when it was on, and I told James Reed, I was like, James, you should go on the show because I know that he really has enjoyed Chimp Empire.

47:43It's interesting because we've had one other male that had a similar type of situation. He actually killed four adult males. Whoa. So he figured, because normally males can die in fights, but usually they're not killed. They get injured and then they get an infection and they die from that, but they're not killed outright. But this male figured out kind of how to go for the jugular. Ah, literally. And so these males would bleed out very, very quickly. And what's interesting in thinking about both of them is they both had some significant childhood trauma. Yeah. So Gironiza, who was the male who killed a bunch of other males, he was actually with Pablo.

48:20when Pablo was badly, badly wounded in a fight and died from that fight. So he was kind of Pablo's right-hand man. So he saw Pablo get very badly wounded and die. And his PTSD. He was caught in a snare, which can be very, very traumatic. When he was quite young, he was caught in a snare. His mom lived, but his mom died when he was about 12, but he had a much younger brother who was three and a half who then he had to raise. So I think it's interesting. Like, what could early life experiences, what role might that play? Now, lots of gorillas have had bad early life experiences and they're just fine.

48:52But we're actually doing a big study right now where we're comparing the gorillas with the Gombe chimps from Jane Goodall and then another population of chimps that are in the same forest as the Ngogo chimps, but it's in a different area. They're called the Kinyawara chimps. And we're really interested in looking at early life adversity and what that means for later life outcomes. Because the gorillas amazingly seem to be much more buffered. When something happens to them early on, probably because they have this really tight community that the chimps don't have. And I feel like you see that a lot in Chimp Empire.

49:25And re-watching it, I'm like, God, these guys feel so alone. Oh, they're so alone. Whereas the gorillas are just with each other all the time. They're a cohesive unit. They stay together. And we were able to show that if a young gorilla loses its mom, it actually spends more time near other gorillas because everyone kind of comes and buffers them. And I've thought about this a lot with my daughters, having lost a parent. and what is the community you need to build around them to give them that social buffering that hopefully will help. This was in your TED Talk. Give the statistics. There's some fascinating statistics.

49:55Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if a male chimp loses its mom even up to the age of 15, so they're weaned at five, so they're nutritionally completely independent. If they lose their mom up to the age of 15, they have a shorter life expectancy than a chimp that doesn't lose its mom. And we don't see this with gorillas. And in fact, some of our most successful gorillas Pablo lost his mom when he was four. But he had been taken on by Beethoven. Right, and Titus had lost his mom. He lost his whole family. They were decimated by poachers. And he went on to become an incredibly successful male. And I think in part, they get adopted by the silverback.

50:30So now you've got the number one guy in the group who's making sure you have prime access to food. He'll sleep with them at night. And then the whole group supports you. So this social bonding that happens in guerrilla families, which is really interesting. It's so interesting. So Infura's bullying's not unique? I mean, maybe just because I saw it, it was captured on camera. It seemed, but is that just standard? Did he have not reacted? No, I mean, when we've looked at it, it's very rare for males to be kind of forced out of the group. Usually they kind of choose to leave on their own, but they will get aggression directed at him.

51:02And maybe he was being inappropriate in other ways. I think Mbuzu was probably also just in a heightened state of arousal. Just taken over from Gitarasi, he's trying to make sure everyone knows he's dominant. This male is kind of on his coattails. And so just putting him in his place, right? And there may have been other things going on that we didn't capture that happened, you know, when we're not with the gorillas. But my guess is it was a bit of that. And maybe Infora was trying to take advantage of the situation and the uncertainty. Because one of the things that was really clear to us in watching it, the group did not expect Ubuzu to take over.

51:34Like when that first fight happened, you can see they're all kind of like, wait, what's going on? Because I think Iturasi was about 28. So he wasn't past his prime. Kansby lived to be 38. But he had been sick. So it was a bit of a shock. He sort of came in hot. So it took a little while. The group was unsettled. And so maybe Mfurrow was taking advantage of that a little bit. I was shocked how close the females were getting to them as they were fighting. Again, you don't see that in chimps. Everyone's smart enough to get out of there ASAP. Everyone gets involved. So yeah, that told me that either those fights aren't as dangerous.

52:05There's some clue there that they were that close and engaged. Yeah, no, the females often will. In one of them, I think it's Teta. You can see she's like biting. I don't remember if it was Imphura or Ubuzu, but she's in there right in the mix, biting. Like break it up or like I'm on someone's side? No, like joining the side. Okay. They're attacking at that time. Oh, wow. Okay, so back to the parallel with the kid at school. Yeah. It's interesting to see. And between the Chimp Empire and this movie, one of the huge, to me, takeaway messages is the value of these long-term studies. We don't have that many of them.

52:38But N 'Gogo was a wonderful, peaceful chimp community for 20 years before this started happening. And then all of a sudden, they had a few members die that were kind of the connectors between these two neighborhoods. And then, you know, they just gradually over time got to the point where now they're going and systematically trying to eliminate the other population. You could have gone in for 20 years and never would have thought that would have happened. The same with the gorillas. Like when Diane was first there, there was a lot of poaching of gorillas. So there was a lot of infanticide because when a male would get poached, that would give another male an opportunity to come in.

53:1040 % of deaths were infanticide. Then when poaching was eliminated, it was really stable. And for 15 years, we didn't have a single case of infanticide. If you were a researcher that came in at that point in time, you would say, oh, gorillas don't commit infanticide. It's not a reproductive strategy. Now we're seeing it again, but now it's much more natural. It's not caused by poaching. It's just the gorillas figuring out how they're going to sort themselves out. It's these long windows of time that show us how complicated their society is. Because if you went in for a shorter window of time, you might make assumptions just because whatever the ecological conditions were back then, they didn't need to fight.

53:47They could spread out, whatever. And then those ecological conditions change or something changes and we see this whole other side of them that we hadn't observed before. Well, it's interesting. It kind of goes into just studying things, which is like you're there for a short window. Context isn't even what you're looking at. Right. You're looking at the subject and not even recognizing, oh, the context is absolutely determining what the subject's doing. And we have no idea how different or similar this context is to five years ago or 10 years ago. Exactly. 100%. I wonder, does that bleed into how you look at us?

54:17Because I feel like I sometimes have a view of things that borders on sociopathic from my friends in that. Let's talk about young males, men. It's like you're telling me we're going to look at all the other primates and especially look at the grape apes. And we see just how they act and what their role is and what they have to do and all this chemistry they have to help them be aggressive in the moment they have to be or take chances or be daredevils to establish that we would have been excluded from that. Or because we're living in a civilization for 3 ,000 out of our 300 ,000 years, somehow you think we all just our chemistry change.

54:52When you look at us, what do you think? That's a great question. I do think about it a lot. Like I like to kind of sit back and just sort of observe people. And I think about a lot when I get on planes. Here you are getting on a plane with 400 people you don't know. You're sitting like this. You're putting your life in someone else's hands. And we do it all the time. That is what I think is amazing about human society. Because that could never happen with gorillas. It could never happen with chimps. Yeah, chimps. Never happened with chimps. Yeah, we're not the same. I think sometimes you can look at it as like, we are animals.

55:22Well, we are. We come from animals, but we're humans. We're not the exact same. We're not. And we have all kinds of tools in our culture to overcome our deficits that no longer service. But the point is, I don't say, hey, you got to acknowledge boys are this real thing to excuse it. I say, hey, they have an uphill battle that's going to go wrong if we don't have a great game plan because they've inherited 65 million years of primate evolution, 6 million years of ape evolution, 3 million years of hominid evolution. It didn't go away 3 ,000 years ago. That's a reality. So it's like I'm not saying boys should be able to act any way they want because they were designed to be this way.

56:01But I'm saying we need a fucking game plan for them, whether it's sports or it's this or it's that. They're built to do this thing. And if we just think it evaporated because we have silverware, it's very naive. And we need a game plan. Well, it's funny because Rob and I were just talking before you guys came in. And he was saying he has two boys. And I was just on spring break with friends of mine that have young men. And it's just so interesting. They're so different. They are always moving. They're always active. They're always eating. It's so completely different than having girls. And I think that's some of the points that Scott Galloway has made.

56:33And I know he's been on your show. It was like, what is the outlet? Yeah, especially now as more and more people are interacting more with screens and not with people. How are the older men in our society going to step up and be mentors to these younger men and help teach them the societal rules and norms? And it's very easy now for you to get lost in a virtual world or an online world that takes you down a different path. Yes. Or I'm reading a book right now for a guest we have on Wednesday. and it's about this kid who goes astray in London and he's got classmates that are sons of oligarchs in London.

57:04So they have great wealth and he becomes obsessed with wealth. And these boys that are obsessed with the manosphere, like what you're seeing in the simplest way is young males think they've found a way to have females. I mean, it's really that simple at its core is, oh, that's a strategy. I see the video and there's a bunch of beautiful girls around this guy and he's got muscles and a Ferrari. That's the thing. Or this guy's at the nightclub. It's still about mates. It's never not going to be about mates. Well, it's also about, they say it in that doc, like money. So much of it is about money.

57:37But what's the point of the money? When you're 15, 16, 17, it's really all to have the girl in the bikini next to you. Like it is the currency currently. It would have been great meat. So I have meat to share with the group and I'm going to elevate my status and gain access reproductively. There's always been things or I'm going to protect everyone. and that's going to be my route. In absence of these things that have gone away, now it's like, I don't know, if you're a young male, what is it? I guess it's money or I guess it's a car or I guess it's this or it's that. And we can't just go, no, you got to not be that way.

58:10We have to have a solution for how they're supposed to get mates. That's not that disgusting thing none of us want. Yeah, probably calling them like bitches and sluts is like not the way. They're giving them horrible advice. They're giving them horrible advice and it's a two-way street. They are with women. So that's a reality. Like you might dismiss those women that have chosen to be around those guys, but the 13-year-old boy doesn't know that you think those women have low priorities. He's seeing them with women. What do we do about that? That's the two-way street of it all. But they're degrading them.

58:43They're like, I would never actually date someone like that. Or if you were my daughter, I would disown you. These are the things. Monica, it's disgusting. So I got no pushback. I know what you're saying. Yeah, it's just like, what's the solution? To say that those boys need to just be at 13 years old elevated and have our consciousness, that's not a solution. But it's like, which alphas are they looking up to is the solution. Showing which alpha to look up to is the solution. And women do play a part in that. Yeah, that's why I think it's not a good approach to put it all on one side. It's like, I think we have a collective issue.

59:15How do I make sure my daughter's not attracted to a guy who says she's a bitch and drives a Ferrari? That's part of this equation. For sure. One thing, though, with the movie, Dax, that I wanted to ask you about is, well, first of all, what was it like to watch with your daughters? What did they think? And then one of the worries that we had when the movie started was the behaviors we saw were so un-gorilla-like. In a way, like, they do have these dominant shifts. We've seen four or five of them in 60 years. Pretty rare. It's usually pretty peaceful. Usually a male dies and the next one takes over.

59:48This infanticide was really rare. And so a concern of mine at the start was, oh, you know, is the movie going to go in the direction of showing this violent side and sort of portraying gorillas as shows, which they really aren't. And I was really happy. I thought that the filmmakers did an amazing job. You're afraid of making jaws. Yeah, yeah. And making everyone afraid of these animals and not sympathetic. Or maybe even a little bit of the road we just went down, which is, uh-oh, gorillas are angry and kill and want power when most of the time they don't. They don't. And I think the takeaway should be the context, the context, the context.

1:00:23Yeah, we're all capable of good and bad. And when you control this other thing, you see this emerge. And when this happens, you see this emerge. So we can't control the behavior once it's emerging. We have to control the context before it emerges. It's just no, that's not the strategy is in the middle of the, you know. Right. That's a great question. I don't know of someone who this is their very first exposure to gorillas. I think that would be hard to imagine. No one's not watched the many peaceful versions we've seen of the gorillas. But yeah, this is the singular thing they witnessed. I still think you're seeing of the whole movie.

1:00:56They're filming for six years. They filmed for two. Oh, okay. Six years. Project. Yeah. Okay, so they're filming for two years. And they have about 90 seconds of footage of fighting. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's true. In reality. And then they have an hour and 58 minutes and 30 seconds of rolling around and hugging and grooming and caring for each other. So I guess you'll take whatever you want. Young boys will watch that. I'm a man and I'm watching it. And of course, I'm going to be projecting onto that male. I'm like, yeah, that's what I would have to do. And I would do it. And I have tried to do it my whole life.

1:01:33And I want a family. And I will do whatever that takes. So if it's jump things or protect them or whatever. So yeah, I'm watching and having this experience. And then my daughters and my wife are watching it going like, oh my God, these poor women have to deal with these men. Of course. But again, this is how this thing works. You could hate it or love it, but it is how it kind of works. So it's so well done. And again, we must be suspicious of Reed. I don't know how he's capturing. Because they're so similar to us, you cannot help but to project onto them and to feel like you're watching a reality show of humans.

1:02:08There's so many cute moments with the silverbacks, these big, huge males, holding these little infants, playing with them, they're sliding down their backs. And I was just thinking like as a dad watching it with your kids to see that those interactions exist in guerrilla society just like they exist in ours. I will say I feel like the guerrilla males, they are beloved. They are the center of attention when it's resting time. Everyone's resting around them. The moms leave their kids with them and go off and feed and the males babysit. I do feel because there's not as much intragroup competition that for male gorillas, it's still a stressful lifestyle.

1:02:44But watching chimps is just to me, it's like watching aliens. They're always making noise, yelling, screaming, running around. The gorillas, those screams you heard, that's like all you ever hear from gorillas. That's it when there's a fight. Other than that, they're quiet. They just sort of grunt to each other. I'm over here. I'm over here. If we look at humans, too, it speaks to resources a lot. Yeah. The chimps might have to walk three miles to go to the tree that's in bloom. These gorillas eat everything around them at all times. They're never not eating. They're just moving five feet and eating more and then moving five feet.

1:03:14Then they take their nap. They wake up. They're right next to the food. So I think that's applicable to us. It's like when there's great resources and people aren't fighting over finite resources, you see a different side of animals. You know, the other thing, Dax, I thought you would find fascinating about those N 'Gogo chimps is that they are incredible hunters. I think it's the one example, other than humans, of one primate hunting another species into decline. So the red colobus monkeys there have declined by 90%, primarily because they're more efficient hunters. They're like on the level of wild dogs in terms of how well they hunt and coordination and everything.

1:03:50Because gorillas are vegetarians. Occasionally they eat an ant. You saw them eat ants. They don't even know how to eat them right. That's the comedic portion of the film. I know. I'm like, can you just get a stick? Yeah, they suck. They can't use tools. What are they doing? They're so elevated in this domain. And then over here, it's like there's clumsily slamming their fists into this hole with a ton of these. Super biting ants. Like it really hurts when they bite you. Yeah, it was not colonizer ants. It was something crazy. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, huge pinchers. And they're like, oh, shit. And then they're trying to kill them so they can then pick them up and eat them.

1:04:16I'm like, just go get a stick. Be like a chicken stick. Eat it the proper way. Go fishing. So we can publish that and everyone will love them because they are good tool users in captivity. But they don't need to out there. When you live in a huge salad bowl, there's not much you need tools for. So they just don't do it. The chimp people make fun of them all the time for being stupid. Because they don't use tools. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Helix. So a little while back, Helix sent Monica and me mattresses. Neither of us really knew what to expect, but I have to say it's been a few months now and I genuinely notice a difference.

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1:08:45And they learned sign language. They've been taught sign language. Yeah, Coco, yep. Is she our only example? I mean, I think she was the only one that it was done with. I don't think there were others that were in the sign language program, but yeah, she did. You remember famously, she knew her kitty was not anymore. She signed that her kitty was dead. Coco had a kitty. A kitty like a cat. Oh, a cat. She had a pet. Oh. And it was hit by a car. And she understood that it was dead. She signed this unique sign. Oh. They have pets? No, this is the one that was raised in captivity and taught sign language.

1:09:15Yeah, like she was kind of raised almost like a human child. Oh. Got it. So it was a lot of studies in the 70s that were interested in seeing how much did apes really understand language, even though they can't verbally make language the way we can, how much do they understand it? Uh-huh. Okay, I have a couple of geeky questions. All right. In the doc, Attenborough says, and I'm paraphrasing, but he's talking about his first interaction with them in the 70s with Pablo and the others, saying, of all the animals, they see the world as we do, as humans do. And I read Ed Young's great book where it talks about the umwelt, that German word.

1:09:47And the umwelt for people who doesn't, it's all your senses taking in the outside world and constructing it into what's in your head. And that's your umvel. And so some animals are seen in infrared. And so that's their umvel. So how much do we know about gorillas' umvel? How do they see? How do they hear? How do they touch? All very similar to us. I think their sense of smell, I don't know that anyone's tested it. I get the sense that their sense of smell is maybe it's still a little bit better than ours. But yeah, very visual, similar. They seem taller. Yep. They're not like those birds that when we look at them, they're brown.

1:10:19And when they look at each other, they have like a huge red spot on them. Yeah. That we can't see, which I think is so cool. It's so cool. Okay, and then where are we at with tourism? Yeah, huge part of the conservation success story. So I think there's 13 different types of great apes when you look at species and subspecies, not including us, and they are all declining except for mountain gorillas. They're the only ones on the planet that are increasing in number. Now, at the species level, they're still critically endangered, which means that's one level before extinct in the wild. So very at risk, very much need support.

1:10:53But there's a lot of factors that have gone into that conservation success. But part of it is definitely tourism because that money helps fund the park. And it also is shared with the human communities that live adjacent to the park. So they understand the value of - They're incentivized to keep them. For sure. The challenge with tourism is, you know, it needs to be done responsibly and well, particularly because these animals are super sensitive to the same illnesses that we have. So we have to make sure we're not bringing in anything to them, which is why each family is only visited for one hour a day by a maximum of eight people.

1:11:25And you're supposed to wear a mask when you're with them as well. Well, that's new. Yeah, that's new. That's since COVID. And you get up to where you can see them. And once they're seen, you have to stop. There's no more forward momentum. Now, if they come closer to you, that's fine. That's how it at least worked when we were there. Yeah, I would say that more often than not, the rules are broken on getting too close to them. But it's not the people's fault. It's the guerrilla's fault. because a lot of times you can't move. You're stuck. And the guides are really good at telling you, like, don't move.

1:11:54Let them, they're just going to pass by. They'll only be here for a second because if you move or you startle them, that's when they might get a little bit nervous. I think they also like to put us in our place. Like, this is my forest. This big guy's here, but I'm the alpha. This is my forest. I'm just going to let them know. I'm two and a half times the size of you, my friend. I know you're big in your little world. I will say I've never seen a tourist get pulled. But you've heard that, right? I mean, I'm sure some of our team members have that are with the girl is more. And, you know, the males, when they display, they like to pick stuff up and throw it.

1:12:23If you're in the way, they might scooch you. But no, I take people to Rwanda all the time to see the gorillas. Never have had anyone get hurt. Bee stings are more likely what might bother them in the forest or an ant bite than the gorillas themselves. The guides are really good. They can read their behavior. Oh, their next level. Yeah, and move you to the right spot. And the gorillas, they've seen people every day of their lives. So I think, honestly, in their minds are like, okay, it's that hour where these weird ones that stand on their two feet instead of being, you know, on all four. These bald ones.

1:12:50Yeah, they're here for an hour and they're going to leave and then we'll just go about our day. The kids are really interested. A lot of times they want to check you out. The males are like sleeping. And they'll turn their back on you, which to me is a sign they're very comfortable. Because you don't turn your back on something that you're worried about. You want to keep your eye on it. And, you know, they'll be lying there and then they'll just roll over and just continue sleeping. The one thing I will say about tourism is it's incredibly valuable, but it can't be our only solution for conservation because we saw it during the pandemic.

1:13:18People stopped traveling or if there's an economic downturn or if there's civil unrest. And so if all the money for conservation is being generated through one mechanism, whatever it is, tourism, in this case, it's not sustainable. So we need a diversified approach to conservation if we want these kinds of animals to stay on the planet. I think that that's a really important part of it. I remember learning that for almost all of them, bearing your teeth is not good for each other. If like one chimp bears his teeth to another, that's kind of a threat. Is it the same in Gorilla? Yeah. It feels like our interactions would be innately flawed because when we're happy and friendly, we're just like all teeth.

1:13:54There's a lot of playing in the movie. And when they play, they pull their lips back and you can see their teeth really well. So I think it's not just the teeth, but it's all the other context that goes along with it. The same way we can make a scary face when we're showing our teeth. And you can just tell, is that person tense? Yeah. Like if they have a tense smile versus if they're really relaxed. The other thing that people talk about too is direct eye contact can be aggressive. And it can be, but they love to look at you. They like to come up and look. I always equate it to like when you're in an elevator.

1:14:23If you're in an elevator and someone turns and looks at you, right? So you've got to know the context. If the gorillas are upset, you're going to look away. And that's a sign of respect. Like I'm not challenging you. But otherwise, they're fine if you look at them. It's what's happening in the larger context. Okay, my last question, and it's completely frivolous. Did you watch Chimp Crazy? I did not. I have a lot of friends that work in those areas trying to help chimps that are in situations like that. But I did not watch it. As like a choice? Because there's things I don't watch, and so I'm like, I refuse to support that.

1:14:55Was it that type of choice? Or was it like, I have no interest in seeing this? I know enough about that world to be like, I don't need to know anymore. Like, it's probably just going to upset me. Because I think if I were you, I might feel, and even I felt a little bit, like, I felt this terrible, that's right, feeling. Like, yeah, you think they're this. And you're so naive. And you want a pet so bad. So part of me was fascinated in that way. Like, oh, really, you think you can have a teenage, fertile male chimp around you? And that's going to work out? Crazy. Oh, oh, my Lord. Well, the documentary is incredible.

1:15:29I loved it. Watch it with the girls. I think everyone should watch with their family. It's great. And no, I don't think you'll walk away feeling like Jaws. When the two two-year-olds start wrestling, it looks like two stuffies came alive and started wrestling. I love that. It's true. They're so cute. And I have to say, too, I love the scenery of Rwanda. Like, it's so dramatic. I felt like that was a whole other character, just showing the mountains and what they look like and that mist and the rain. And it's beautiful. It's in Eden for sure. When their babies are their teeth sharp, Was he in danger at all when the little baby was in danger?

1:16:03That's a great question, Monica. I mean, I'm sure if the baby had bitten him, he could have broken skin. But when he might have been at risk is if he did something that, like, scared the baby and the baby did a little vocalization that it was nervous. And then you got mom. And maybe you got dad coming over to see what's going on. So I probably shouldn't hang out with the little baby. Not if mom and dad are. I mean, they are like little fluffers. I know. I really do want to touch one. But they're not soft. Thank God. Never mind. I don't want old ones anymore. They're not soft and cuddly. It's more of a Brillo pad consistency.

1:16:39No. Okay. The movie is a gorilla story told by David Attenborough. It is on Netflix. And your team said Earth Day, April 22nd. But the internet says the 17th. The 17th. It's the 17th. Yeah. We've forgotten Earth Day. We don't need that tie-in. We don't need to cross-promote. Tara, it's so great to get to see you in person. It's so much more fun. Thank you for having me back. and letting me talk about my favorite subject for an hour and a half. I love it. So fun. So interesting. All right. Be well. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes.

1:17:14We're recovering from something. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm recovering. You're fully recovered. Yeah. Easter egg, and maybe it will or will not make the final cut. Well, it will because you want it to. and he wants it to. I'm best to never see it, but I did insist on dancing in front of a guest. Yeah. Which is, of course, real hard to watch.

1:17:38It was like, I don't know. What's a good analogy? It's like. Well, you've probably never seen anything like it to compare it to. To be clear, you danced to a song of this guest. Yeah, because I love it so much. I love it so much, and it is a great song. Oh. And you just had to do it. You broke the table in the middle of doing it. Which I think is a sign of any great dance party is that a table gets broken. I was like, oh, my God. Now things are breaking. Things are literally breaking down as we speak. Yeah, yeah. In eight years is the biggest swing I've taken, for sure. Yeah, and I guess I just, like, want to know, you know, you're so different from me, you know?

1:18:25You're like. Sure, sure. Like, you know, you're acknowledging it. Like, this is weird. This is crazy. This is kind of inappropriate. But highly. Like, you're making this person watch you dance. Yes, it's crazy. It could be super self-indulgent, too. Yes, it ran all these risks. I had the idea because I had been dancing to this person's song for a couple of hours today. And I had a fantasy that maybe they'd want to dance with me to the song. And then, so two things. It's like, I kind of want to do that. But I have to assess during the two-hour interview whether this is going to be way too much for the person or not.

1:19:10So there was a really high likelihood I wasn't even going to ask. Okay. But I thought that their personality could handle it. Okay. And then they didn't want to dance with me. Yeah. And then I just felt like you can only believe so much when I tell you I like the song. See, that's where we. But if I'm willing to go to this super embarrassing level to demonstrate how I feel when I hear it, that would be like my most sure way of letting them know. I think he knew, you know, I think he knew before you dance that he that like it meant a lot to you and that you love it. And like because you were pretty effusive just in the words you were using about how much you loved it.

1:19:47So it came through. Words are easy, though. They're cheap. No, they're not. They came through. It came through, but, you know. So it was unnecessary is what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But then you did it and. We got through it. I guess, you know, I'm embarrassed, but I'm also in awe because I just could never. Like, I just, I just like could and would never do what you just did, you know. Right, right, right. And so there's like, wow. Wow. He's so different from me. And it's cool. You really don't care. I care, but not enough. But you do care. I care, but not enough to overwhelm this other thing I think is pure that I want to do.

1:20:31I know. I think it was the watching. Yeah, watching's rough. It's kind of like if someone, like the worst would have been if I looked at you guys in the eyes while it was happening, which I never did. Oh, my God. Okay, moving on. Transitioning. That was that. I just think we needed to like, because it was one second ago. I haven't even caught my breath fully. It was quite a workout. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. Like, when someone's dancing and you're being forced to watch, like, every song is actually 45 minutes. And aren't you glad you had each other? I am glad. But then I also felt, okay, look, here's, like, what's, there's, it's complicated, actually.

1:21:05Yeah. Because I can't, you're one of my many fathers. Yeah, yeah. If any of my fathers, you, my dad, Bill. Bill. You wouldn't want to see Bill dance. I don't want him to dance in front of me while this guest is here, while everyone's—actually, no, I don't. I don't want any of my dads to do that. I understand. And so, you know, I'm having, like, a very, like, personal reaction. Invisceral. Which is, like, I absolutely need this to end, like, right now. Yeah, this song is way too long. And it's a short one. It's like three minutes. But our guest is engaging with me during this because he is finding this very funny.

1:21:46Yeah, yeah. Even though it's not funny. It's real. It's all very real. And so, but then I was like, well, I don't want to, like, gang up. I don't want to, like, us be laughing at Dax. Like, that's mean. So, can this just be over now? I committed. Like, I committed. So, whatever outcome I was at peace with. I know, but it's like, I don't know. I just, okay. I'm glad it's over. Yeah, yeah.

1:22:18So, uh. Other update. Yeah. I threw that thing away and then last night, no problems. Yeah. So it was the peptides. Yeah, definitely. Because I took my nighttime vitamins and oils and omega-3s. Yeah. So everything was groovy. Well, figured it out. That's good. That was an experiment. Figured it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was going to ask. I'm glad you brought that up. Okay. my brother is about to be here he's seconds away I'm now upset I didn't plan things in what way? because I'm like oh god now what are we gonna do? okay this might be fun for our audience if they come into the city of Los Angeles well first of all has she ever been here?

1:23:03your brother's visited you several times yes she has the only bad visitors are ones who've never been to LA and naturally they do have to go see Hollywood Boulevard and they got to see the sign and they got to see Santa Monica Pier. But none of us want to do any of that. All the things we don't want to do when you live here. Yes. She has, but like kind of briefly. So I do wonder if we're going to need to check a few things off the list. We might need to. For anyone who's visiting Los Angeles, why don't you give your perfect day? Well, I know what I would do right now is I would get online and I would book and I would break the bank and I would go see whatever's playing at the Hollywood Bowl this weekend.

1:23:43I think that's the most special thing in L.A. is the Hollywood Bowl. And if you can get yourself into those little picnic-y area, it's so fun and magical. And anything, like the Philharmonic's playing, it'll be great. Interesting. Okay, I like that. Go take them to see Kid Rock. I'm good. I'm good on that. But can you imagine? I mean, oh my God. You're like, I got a great surprise. You never know that they're from Georgia. They might. I'm talking about like the Hollywood Bowl. No one would go. Wow. Like it would be so interesting to see who would show up for that. Yeah. I don't think they're booking him is my point.

1:24:22Probably not. Yeah. Okay. That's great. Hollywood Bowl. Or Greek. Maybe something's at the Greek. Okay. So you're going. Okay. If you're booking. Your brother's coming in town with his fiance. Yeah. And they're cool. They're fun, you know. You're, you have 24 hours with them. You're going concert. I would go Hollywood Bowl. And then I would wake up tomorrow morning and I would hike up to the observatory so they can look out over the city and see what a magical place it is. I might take them to Kara. Dodgers game. Okay, Dodgers game. Signature. I'm trying to give them things that will be uniquely LA.

1:25:02Okay. And then you'll take them to Silver Lake to Eat or Echo Park, one of those fun little neighborhoods. I'm just going to see what they're feeling. Yeah. You know? What kind of cuisine are they interested in tonight? Yeah. Ooh. Mm. And avoid every time they mention the West Side, just act like you didn't hear it. Yeah. Like if they want to go to the beach or something, just be like. Yeah. Is that what you just did just now when I said Cara? Because you just like didn't. You just kept talking. Oh, no. Oh, no. I wasn't intentionally doing that. I didn't know if you were showing me a way to do that.

1:25:32Demonstrating. No. Like I just did with Cara. Just like I didn't. Did I hear that? Oh, you said something about the beach. I hadn't heard you. Anyways, have you guys been to the Hollywood Bowl? All right. Well, I'm excited to have them. And we're going to report back on how it goes. Yeah. That's very fun. It is fun. You're hosting your little brother and his lady. At my house. Yeah. Did I knock a candle over, too? There's something on the ground. Yeah, you did. Okay. All right. Yeah. Yeah, that blew off. Yeah. My kids love Jane's Addiction now. That's a huge win for me. Their ever-expanding musical taste makes me so happy.

1:26:12That's fun. Yes. Cute. Because we watched that Chili Peppers doc. Did you watch it yet? No. Did you watch it, Rob? No, I did not. It's fucking phenomenal. I cannot recommend it enough. It's a beautiful documentary. And I want to say publicly from the rooftops, Flea is the most beautiful, fucking soulful human being. Yeah. He's so sweet. Is Anthony Kiedis in it? Oh, yeah. I hope everyone remembers that Ryan. He was a mummy? That our friend Ryan is obsessed with Anthony Kiedis. And when Anthony Kiedis was at your house for a second. Unexpectedly. I've never seen him. Short circuit. Yeah. His reaction was really something.

1:26:47And what a reveal, too, because Anthony was a mummy for Halloween. So there was just a mummy in the house, if people remember. And then he unwrapped it. And it was like, I guess this is the Masked Sinner. It was like a real version of the Masked Singer. Yeah. I'm working late because I'm a singer. Great song, Sabrina. Oh, my God. A new artist for you. Did you know you can watch Coachella live on YouTube? I didn't know that until the second weekend. Uh-huh. Yeah, that's a big, that's why, like, that's why people had some interesting feelings about some of the performances because I think. They're on their couch.

1:27:22Well, no. I think they're like, oh, this performance is made for people watching at home. It's actually not made for me who's there. That's what a lot of people were thinking. I think a lot of people are dying to pile on and hate things. Well, I don't know. Like I heard some feedback about the Bieber thing. I was like, are you fucking watched it? It's so incredibly pure and amazing. Right, but you watched it on YouTube. But I also talked to a bunch of people that were there and their fucking minds were blown. So the people that I talked to were there were even more impressive than people I... I think everyone's allowed to have their own opinion about...

1:28:04Certainly people are allowed to have their own opinion. It also might be possible that people are dying to declare they hated something. Yeah. Even if they don't. I think so often they actually don't have an opinion. They like saw it and they're like, I don't know whether that's good or bad. And then they start hearing this chatter. And so they hear a theory pitched. Right. And when these things are pointed out, you're like, oh, I guess I did observe those things. I guess it was bad. I don't think they actually intrinsically felt that way. It depends on who's saying it, whether or not I think that or not.

1:28:36Yeah, if that person has halo effect. Right. Because, like, I have a kind of hot take on something right now. And it would annoy me if people were like, oh, you just don't like it because you don't want to like it because people like it. Because that's not true. There are real reasons why I don't like it. I'm not going to say what it is because I'm not here to blast anything. And now we're all dying to know. Oh, yeah, me and Hillbilly Elegy, yeah. Everyone around me is like, this book is so great. Correct. This book is full of shit. And it was like, oh, you just like don't like it because everyone likes it.

1:29:06But not true. You had your own opinions. Yeah. Of which I have too many and the less I have, the happier I am. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. This episode is brought to you by Walden University. So here's something I've been thinking about. There are people out there who want to make real change. Not just talk about it, but actually do it. Maybe it's advancing in their career. Maybe it's making a difference in their community. And they're working full-time, juggling life, wondering if going back to school is even possible. That's where Walden University comes in. For over 50 years, they've been helping working professionals get the W.

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1:30:30Now, do you think you're having less opinions or you're just keeping them quiet? I keep them quiet. Yeah. It's not like it's actually making, or do you think keeping them quiet is having a reverse effect and you're actually having less? For sure in the way that like I've learned to overcome my urge to share my opinion, right? So I have some practice now with that and I live. Everything's fine. No one heard my opinion and I had a great point, but it didn't even matter. So I observed that. That's interesting. And then you get better at fighting the urge. Yeah. And then, yeah, I think the importance of my opinion in general has been downgraded.

1:31:04It's like, yeah, that's just a thought I have in my perspective. Yeah. And it's equally as relevant as everyone else's. And it might make more sense mathematically or in terms of physics. But that is also just one way to observe the world and compute it. That's right. Yeah. I'm less and less, as I age, religious about the empirical. That's good. I just now see it as like, yes, that's an avenue to examine life. Yeah. But that's a lens to look at life through in reality. Yeah. And there's certainly many more. Our guest was closer to your age, but in the middle. Really? How old is he? He's born in 84, so I guess he's just three years.

1:31:49And then I'm nine years, so it's not that very much in the middle. But I think because his, I'm ruining everything. Never mind. I keep saying him. I don't want to give it. It's okay. Well. Yeah. Oh, we should say. I'm actually fine saying that. The guest who you danced for was a man. Oh, okay. I think it's okay to say that actually. Yeah. I don't think I would have danced for a woman. The level, that is a no. Yeah. Yeah. Unless. Oh, God. I can imagine a case where like, again, Taylor Swift is so fucking confident. And if I said like, I love your song, such and such, and I dance to it every chance I can.

1:32:29Yeah. I can imagine her going, let's see it. I don't want her to do that. I know you don't. But it's a conceivable scenario, right? I mean, you just have to be like so ready. Like I think Madonna would be like, yeah, go ahead and dance to Material Girl. I'll judge. Right. Because she's so confident. That's true. I just like it adds a weird adds another layer if I dance for Sabrina Carpenter, it would be really a rough look for me. I think for Taylor. Like again, because look, if you're dancing for one of these people, that's viral. Like everyone's going to see it. Speaking of opinions, if you if I dance for Sabrina Carpenter on and you danced.

1:33:11Yeah, I'd be the laughingstock of America. everyone in the whole world would see it and make an opinion yeah they'd say she hated even if she was saying i love it i love it i love it like she was forced to say she loved it exactly yeah so i mean we're already gonna deal with that when we put this out yeah he might have to do a level he might have to make a statement publicly i can say i truly enjoy i'm no longer in that situation and i still like it and he made us he made us put it up he said you better not cut that so okay wait Yeah, that guest is kind of between us. Their musical tastes were very informed by my same musical taste.

1:33:49Uh-huh. So, and that way I think we felt closer in age, but it was an illusion. It was an illusion of the same references. I can be so tricky in that way. Because for you, John Hughes is obviously you're in this business and you know about John Hughes. I love John Hughes. But John Hughes wasn't seminal work for you, was it? Other than Home Alone. Yeah, Home Alone is my touchstone. I mean, I saw, like, I saw 16 Candles and I saw, and Breakfast Club was a big deal. Yeah. But it was a big deal as, like, yeah, it wasn't newly a big deal. It was like, yeah, this is something from. The way back. The before times that, like, supposed to hold up and be cool.

1:34:28It's, like, cool if you like it. Sure, sure, sure. And Callie had a Breakfast Club poster. Yeah, that's a cool move. Yep, yep. And she, like, knew movies. Yeah. That was that She should have gone into movie publicity Movie marketing Yeah Yeah she should have She did She did Okay so she had Breakfast Club What do you think I had? Well Good Will Hunting Okay yeah but that one's obvious Okay Oh God like Like How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days Or some rom-com No but closer Closer What was it? Ocean's 11 Okay Sure a lot of guys on that poster We had Ocean's 11 In our dorm Oh, in your dorm. We had Ocean's Eleven.

1:35:11We had Breakfast Club. We had Clueless. That's a cool one. That's hers. I had Good Will Hunting. So cute when you're young and you're like, you want everyone to know. Display. You're like, you're defining your identity by what movies you like. It's so adorable. It is. It's just like. Every boy had a Pulp Fiction poster. Everything's just a display of your identity. And it's so tenuous. It's not yours. Yeah. Well, Good Will Hunting, I feel fine about that. And Ocean's Eleven is in my tops. But, like, I had Royal Tenenbaums, which I love. I love that movie. And it's a statement. But it was a display.

1:35:45It was a display. Like, I'm someone who. Has elevated tastes. Yeah. Wes Anderson. Ever heard of him? Probably not. And I'll teach you about it. Yeah. I'm smart. Yeah. Yeah. Like, in that scene, that scene with the blood going, when he's committing suicide. That scene is really upsetting, actually. Okay. But a great song playing. There's a lot of great music in Wes Anderson films. Great movie. Great movie. Oh, my God. Speaking of movies. Yes. Speaking of favorite movies of all time, guess what's knocking on? Not Heaven's Door, but like the movie theater door. The release schedule door? Yeah. What?

1:36:23Devil Wears Prada 2. That's going to be big for you. I'm so nervous. Oh. Because it means so much to me. You love the first one. I can recognize it's a well-made movie. Yeah. But obviously it wasn't like. You don't have an emotional attack. I called Aaron and I'm like, holy fuck, dude. Did you see fucking Prada? I already like. I'm already shortening it because I'm so in on it. Did you see Prada? Prada. Fucking Devil Wears. Oh, God. Movie rips, brother. This woman's so fucking mean to this chick, but this chick's like, fuck this. Well, that's pretty. That's a take. Productive. But yeah, it's a very mean.

1:37:05Is Meryl in then? Yeah, they're all in it. Well, one person's not back. Who's not back? The boy. The boy is not back. But he just did a commercial or something where he, like, is at Starbucks and is like, yeah, I'm not in it. Like, they address it. It's kind of interesting. Through a Starbucks commercial? Yeah. But I'm, it's a meaningful movie to me. And I don't think I ever would call and be like, dude, have you seen Prada? Prada. I would never do that, but I watch it, you know. Oh, my God. Oh, I told him to just go in. That's okay. He's trying to be polite. Okay, I need to, you're right. It's just when you write it down a lot.

1:37:49I am. Okay. That's okay. Don't, he's, I know he's your little brother, but act like he's just a friend. I still. I know. You got to try to, it's time to kind of, you got to ship the lens. Why? It's not like I'm like going to sit here for another five minutes. It's just a quick, like, yeah, I just, I wrote it a lot. Yeah. I'm just saying as siblings age, it can be sometimes helpful to force yourself to imagine they're just a friend. I know, but I'm saying if it was just a friend. You would say what? Fuck off, you fucking annoying little shit prick. No, I would just be like, I said it. Okay. And then I'm over it.

1:38:21That's just a standard. Yeah, because scroll up. You know, it's like scroll up. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's just scroll up is all. A standard biz. Yeah. Want to do some facts?

1:38:35No. Yeah, I know. You got to go. I got to flight the couch. Yeah, let's go. Let's go. Let's keep it moving. Facts. Okie doke. So this is for... Tara Stoinski. Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Our returning primatologist. That was a great doc. I can't wait for you to watch it. I know. I'm really excited to watch it. It's so good. Gorillas are so interesting. Yeah. And chimps. How many gorillas and chimps are there left in the world? This is according to the Coco.org Gorilla Foundation. Status of worldwide gorillas are all are endangered. Eastern lowland gorillas found in Rwanda, Uganda, and DRC. 700 mountain gorillas and several thousand eastern lowland gorillas.

1:39:20Several thousand, did you say? 700 mountain and several thousand. Several thousand. That's good. Down from 17 ,000 in 1990s. Then there's western lowland gorillas found in Cameroon, Congo, Central African Republic, some other places. As many as 100 ,000 western lowland gorillas. Oh, God. That's good. It says down 60 % from past 20 to 25 years, but that is still good. It's not 600 or 250 that they were down to at one point. Yeah. Cross river gorillas that live on the border of Cameroon and Nigeria, 200 to 300 total. These are the most endangered subspecies. Then mountain gorillas count as 1 ,000 up from 700 10 years ago.

1:40:09So that's good. Chimps. There are between 170 ,000 and 300 ,000 chimps in the wild. Okay. They're also endangered. Oh, are gorillas born at 4 pounds and die at 450 pounds? Gorillas weigh, yeah, four pounds, 1.4 to 1.8 kilograms at birth, and full-grown male gorillas weigh between 300 and 485 pounds. 485. And females 200 to 250. Do gorillas see in the same color as us? It says couldn't find a reliable source confirming it, but it appears that gorillas see very similarly to humans' full-color spectrum. There was a study done in 2008 proving that gorillas and chimps have color preferences supporting that.

1:40:51Yeah, I think any animal that subsists largely on fruit is going to develop that. And then our gorilla sense of smell better than ours. Gorillas depend more on sight than smell, unlike monkeys. They have a good smell, though, can sense sweat on humans. Uh-oh. Oh, fuck. For you. I might have to wear deodorant the day I go back. Or the musk of an unknown gorilla. They can smell that. Males use a female's odor to determine her reproductive status. Sure. That's it. Well, I had watched the doc with the girls, and then, of course, it renewed. They want to go to Africa so bad. And I've been telling Lincoln, as I said in the episode, that I would take her when she was 16, which would put Delta at?

1:41:3614. 14. And what's the age track? 15. So she's got to be 17. So I had to give bad news. Uh-oh. Did everyone get upset? Well, it's great, actually, because anytime you can force your children to make hard decisions, I think it's good practice. Yeah. And I said, so listen, I kind of got good news and bad news. The good news is you don't have to be 18. I was fearful that you had to be an adult, but you do have to be 15. Yeah. No. Yes. You have to be 15, which means, Lincoln, we can't go till you're 17. She's like, why? And I'm like, we're not leaving Delta in a hotel while we go. Yeah. But you guys could go in December.

1:42:14Oh, when are you supposed to go? Well, that's another thing. I would only because I did it this way the one time and it was perfect, which is we went in the rainy season. So nobody's there. And I love that. I want to say it's springish. Okay. Because I was going to say, if you go in December, she could be 16. If I went on March 26th. Yeah, exactly. Delta will be 15 and Lincoln will be 16. Yeah. We don't have a problem. Anyways, I was like, well, look, so now you're going to pick. You wait an extra year and get to go see gorillas or go at 16 and we don't see gorillas. Yeah. And they chose right.

1:42:53Sophie's choice. I don't even give me an official verdict yet. I see. I think probably in Lincoln's mind, there's still a way to go at 16 and not bring Delta, which would be a natural sibling response. Well, no, she'll go at 16 and Delta will be 15 at the beginning of the year. Wow. I didn't even do that math. I'm an idiot. Yeah, there's three months where they're the same age. Yeah. Not really, but they're one year apart. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, that's it. That's it. Watch that doc. It's phenomenal. Yeah. Oh, I didn't give my pledge for the other thing in the fact check. Oh. I'm watching this reality show called Secret Millionaire.

1:43:33Ooh. Peter Serafinowicz is the host of it. Okay. Do you remember who he is? He's a comedian. He's English. We're friends with him. He was in couples retreat and we became very good friends with him. I love him. And these season one, I think it was 12 people check into this resort. And they go to the room and everyone's got a box inside. When they open it up, one person has a million dollars in the box. And then they got to try to figure out who's got the million dollars and they vote someone out. And it's so good. But we have had more fun watching the show than I think any other show we've watched as a family.

1:44:05It's so good. And then last night, Kristen was working in San Francisco for the day. So we did Cafe 101, Rummy Cube. Nice. What a fun game to play while you're waiting. Rummy Cube, then Race Home for Season 2, Episode 1 of the new season. What's it called? Secret Millionaire? I think Secret Millionaire. Okay. Cool. It's great. I hope you give it a shot. Yeah, I will. Million dollar secrets. Million dollar secret. Much different. What did I say? Hotel Rwanda? Secret millionaire. Okay, so your million dollar secret. It's very close. If you get secret and million in your search, it's going to bring you there.

1:44:48That's the one. People are devious. Ooh, they are. I thought that during beast games. Oh, ding, ding, ding. Primates. You know, we evolved deception. That's really true. You're right. It's a strategy to mate. Yeah. Ah, dominate. Everything. All right, I'm going to check it out. All right. Love you. Love you. Love you.