Tommy Lee

24:36I'm like, dude, you got to come down. We got this singer right now, but he sucks. You got to come audition. Come, you know, give it a rip. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he didn't show up. Oh, great. Yeah. So he eventually did. And Vince was our guy, man. This is like the lore of a lot of these bands. I don't know. Did you watch the Led Zeppelin doc that came out last year? Yeah, yeah. Were you not shocked with that first recorded performance of theirs in black and white? They have been a band for like six weeks. And they play as good as Led Zeppelin ever played. Insane, I know. It's impossible.

25:10I know. You're like, how could these guys have this synergy after six weeks of playing together? Yeah. But you guys kind of hit that same magic, right? It worked immediately. Immediately. From the second Nicky and I got together, he had written a bunch of these songs with the anticipation of starting a new band, right? And he's playing them for me on acoustic guitar and I'm sitting in a situation kind of like this. And I just started playing drums on the table and we vibed immediately. And it just almost erupted. It was like, this is meant to be. We got to find a fucking guitar player. We got to get a singer.

25:48That's really where it all started with an acoustic guitar, a bunch of fucking alcohol, some hands on a table. We were off. That was it. Yeah, so if we chart your using, I know you've experimented with acid at 13. Where are we at here? Senior year, we've dropped off. How often are we using? What are you into at that time? Then drinking, mostly. Uh-huh. And couldn't really afford cocaine yet, so mostly drinking. Was it immediately problematic or was it a slow? Oh, no, not at all. No, you had a nice ride for a while. You did it like a gentleman for a minute. Oh, yeah. How long did that last? Fuck.

26:26That lasted until 1989. We all decided we needed to go to rehab or someone was going to die. You had kind of a nine-year trajectory of it getting progressively more dangerous. Like, till the wheels fall off, dangerous. We were shooting, right? Yeah, you were. Dude, we got to stop this. This is fucked up. And people are eating handfuls of, they're called halcyons. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like sleeping pills. We eat handfuls of them and then go out for the night. Right. Everything was upside down. We were zombies and people weren't waking up. We're like, someone's going to die soon. Yeah. So as a collective, the whole band decided.

27:07The whole band went to treatment, Monica. Together. At different places. We can't do this alone, guys. We got to do this together or it ain't going to happen. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare, you're supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking your gas gauge before hitting the road. You genuinely thought you could make it? You were wrong. That's a very long stretch of highway where you learned exactly how far fumes can take you. And it's not far enough. Yeah, checking first is an excellent plan. So check Allstate first for an auto quote.

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30:56Did you watch the recent Chili Peppers doc that just came out? It's on my list of docs to watch. Oh, it's beautiful. It's so cool. I'm sure it is. I had read Flea's autobiography, which is an incredible book. It's so good. I'm no historian on the Chili Peppers, but yeah, it's a beautiful doc and this friendship that they had, right? Flea and Anthony in this halal. This high school friendship where they're all outcasts, they all see each other, and then addiction is just stronger, you know? Yeah. It's this like beautiful, fun thing, and it's fun, fun, fun. and now people are nodding off on stage and people aren't waking up.

31:32You know, it catches everyone. And it catches everyone at different times. And I am wondering like, yeah, when you're in a band with four dudes and all of you have your own battle going on, but it's not the same battle. Nicki was a junkie, right? He just loved heroin. Yeah. That's probably the harder one to manage in the group if someone's smacked out. Yeah. And are you guys expressing concern for one another? Or are you just like, I'm not going to fuck with you so that you don't ask me about what's going on. That's a weird time when you're all wanting to look out for each other, but you're also, you're addicts.

32:06I can't sit here and beat you up over the dumb shit that I'm doing too. Were there any adults in the room or parents? Like, hey, we think things are getting a little out of control here. At this point, way, way beyond parents. Like security guards, people that work with the management. People are like, dude, you guys, it's time to wrap this up. I would imagine it's tough, too, when the persona of it is working so much. Yeah, exactly. And you know that's part of the appeal of this band. Of course. It's called a fucking motley crew. We're supposed to be animals. Yeah. We're delivering. How much are we in on the joke and how much are we not in on the joke?

32:45Yeah, for sure. Right? Dude, totally. Are we putting on a show for them or are we getting played? Are we playing ourselves? Yeah, man. Yeah, you look back at all that stuff. You think about all the times that you were that persona after the show, a bunch of people coming backstage and shit. And if you're not that guy ripping out of a bottle of Jack Daniels and got a party going on and fucking everything all crazy, they come back to your after party and go, this fucking rules. You're selling the dream of it. You can't keep that up. It's a performance, right? Yeah, it just never stops. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

33:24You're living it. I noticed that once you get sober and people come back and see you drinking a bottle of water, they're like, what's this? Yeah. That's eerie. Let's get out of here. This sucks. Right. In the words. You're just hanging on, literally. Yeah. You have this heartbreaking, I find it heartbreaking statement where you said, I've been around the world a hundred times and I've seen nothing. Oh, yeah. It's a weird one. Think about it. It is, yeah. You've gone around the world that many times and you've seen the hotel, an airplane, a tour bus, and that's it. Okay, on to the next. It's lonely.

34:06It's a trip. I wouldn't even know how to correct for the gap in what we've experienced and what you've experienced. But even in our tiny experience where we do live shows and there's 3 ,000 or 5 ,000 people, it's so thrilling and exciting. And then you go back to your hotel room and you're sitting in there and you're like, what happened? All these people loved me like one second ago and now I'm completely lonely. And I don't know what to do. There's crickets in your room. Yeah, you're experiencing like these two enormous highs and lows within 30 minutes of each other. Yeah. Well, that's why you just stay high.

34:38You just don't get to the low. Yeah, yeah, right? It's party time. Yeah. It's party time. And depending on how late that goes, sometimes it's into the next day. You know the drill. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're like, fuck it. Let's go. But I think this would shock people. It's like your preference most of the time, you left stage and it wasn't about a girl. It was, let's get coke and let's go back to my room and let's be by myself. Yeah. Like the isolation. So like, yeah, what was the gap between, were you having this sense of like, well, I know how this life's supposed to feel because I dreamt of it.

35:14And I know how people think it feels, but it's not how it feels. Were you having those big gaps in like what everyone thought you should be feeling versus what you were feeling during the height of that? Oh, dude. Full-on band therapist. We'd all get together and talk about how everybody's dealing with this new arrangement. Yeah. This new life. Life, right? Rock star. Yeah. The ultimate. Literally. I mean, you're the thing that all the little kids want to be. Yeah, and interesting, that opens up a whole other thing. Once you start getting into therapy with the people that you work with and that are also going through the same thing, you're learning all these other things about them.

35:59And all of a sudden, it's becoming really complicated at the same time. Yeah. Like, what were you learning? You learned a bunch of things about each other that you didn't really know that nobody talked about. Because Nikki had a pretty rough childhood. Yeah. So you're like, that's coming out. Yeah, you learn about everybody's stuff there. We wouldn't sit around and talk about personal things. Yeah. We were too busy fucking partying. Yeah. You know, you really get to know people when all that gets pulled away a bit. And what would happen, like, interpersonally in a group like that? Did you always have your bestie in the band or would it ping pong?

36:35Were there periods where you were closer to this person or closer to that person? Was there, like, ebb and flow in how people paired off? Yeah, it would move around, but I guess Vince and I would pile up mostly. Mick was quite a full-on recluse. Like, he would sit in his room, windows closed, with his guitar laying in bed. He would never come out. And he was primarily drinking, right? Drinking and blow. Yeah. Okay, great. And Nick, he would stay to himself a lot. We'd go out at nights, but Vince would always, let's go down to the pool at the hotel. And then, you know, we'd start day drinking and we would usually be hanging.

37:12You guys had the constitution to keep it public, keep it out there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so now this is a funny personal story. So you guys did, you all go to treatment. I will mention all the albums do great, right? There's four before Dr. Feelgood. And you guys are fucked up during all those. They're all great. Shout to the Devil's five million copies. Theater Pains, two times platinum. Girls, Girls, Girls is four times platinum. So it's all huge. But you guys all go to rehab in 89. And then you come out and you do Dr. Feel Good. Yeah. And that's by far regarded. Critically, it's the most love.

37:47It sold the most albums. You guys did your best work. I don't know how sober everyone was. Full on. Full on. And did that shock you? Did you start thinking you needed to be fucked up to do what you guys did? Was it a shocker that you guys got together and worked that well sober together? Yeah, it actually really was. I think between that and between a brilliant idea from our producer at the time was, let's get these guys the fuck out of Los Angeles, first of all. I don't want any distractions. These guys are finally clear-headed. Yeah. Let's get them away from LA. We go up to Vancouver, and it just rains every day there.

38:28So all we did was wake up, go to the studio. Drink a gallon of coffee. Yeah, exactly. and then go work, go record and write and do the process. There was no like, oh, it's beautiful out today. It was work and just focus. I hate calling it's work. That's wrong. Between being sober and Bob getting us the fuck out of LA to go focus on what we were there to do was genius. I don't know if we would have done that in LA. Yeah, right. We would have come up with that kind of work. And at this point, you guys have been together for nine years and you're all young dudes. It's almost a miracle you're still together at that point to do Dr.

39:09Feelgood. I pinch myself all the time. Yeah, I mean, it's probably so many times that could have unraveled. Okay, now here's a fun personal experience. So when I, in 1992, 91, I worked for General Motors and General Motors got called by MTV Movie and said, we want to do a celebrity race at the Denver Grand Prix. You guys build a bunch of geo storms. Well, I worked at the race shop that built those geostorms. So I went to the Denver Grand Prix in like 91 when I was 16 and you raced in that. Yes, I was just going to say. No way, dude. You raced in it. Vince raced in it. Yes. One of the bald ones.

39:49And then Sebastian Bach. Oh my God, dude. And I was 16, right? And I think of you, anytime I have an interaction with a dude that's terrible, I think, well, you deserve this from your Tommy Lee interaction. So I was like 16. Oh, no. This is great. I get to kind of formally make an amends for this. So I'm with my uncle. He's like 10 years older than me. We're kind of milling about in this little tent where you guys are at and we're there to fucking handle the cars. And I start chatting to you. And this is what I said. I go, yeah, I'm not really into Motley Crue, but I'm so in love with your wife, Heather Locklear.

40:25Oh, my God. Dad. I know. I know. That's so bad. It's so bad. And my uncle loved it, right? And I was like, I was a legend for fucking two days because I said this thing to Tommy Lee at 60. Because he said something mean to somebody. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now I think every time a dude comes up to me, he's like, I don't really know you, but my wife thinks you're whatever. I'm like, yeah, I deserve that. Because what I said to Tommy Lee or someone comes up and is like, I don't care for your shit, but I love your wife. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, yeah, I deserve that. Oh my God, dude. Amazing. Do you remember how he reacted?

40:59Totally cool. He's like, I mean, he's talking to a 16-year-old. He's like, oh, yeah, you know, he's just nice. That's nice. I'm sure give me the fuck to move on. Cool. That's nice of you. Oh, my God. Yeah, I think you're the first famous person I ever met because I was, you know, 16 and from Detroit. Wow. And then there was this crazy moment. And you were working on those cars then? Yeah, yeah. I worked for this company, SportsFab, who had built those cars. Oh, oh, okay. What a trip. Total trip. The world is this big, bro. Yeah. I swear to God. So I want to apologize for such an obnoxious way to say hi to you.

41:3134, 35 years ago. Yeah, yeah. I didn't think I would ever get a chance to say that. Oh, that's awesome. So how long did that period, that stretch where everyone went to treatment, how long did that one stretch last for you? And what did you find when you were sober? Like, did your life get way better? It got way better. And then once again, maybe this is where it all started. The first time getting sober, I remember the whole band's doing this thing. The fucking last night of the tour, my boy Vince, Last night of the tour, we played Hawaii. We finished in Hawaii, which is fucking rad. After the show, we go over to the strip club.

42:10Vince and I head over there. The girls are walking around with the big fucking round trays with the test tubes and shit loads of shots. Everything you could want. Cornucopia. Yeah. It's the last night of the tour. We're done. We just look at each other and we go. Yeah. And he's like, yeah, the girl, bring all of it. And we just fucking started just. Pick up right where you left off, right? Right where we left off. Just going fucking bananas. Got shitty. The next day, I couldn't live with the fucking guilt. Pretty much just let our other two boys down. Yeah. Broke this pack. Yeah, fuck. But I got to say, I'm sorry.

42:48And so the whole band's in a room. I was like, guys, I fucked up last night. Vince and I went to a strip club and the drink lady came by and it was on. It was colorful. The drinks were cool. That's the night of the tour. I lost it. I'm sorry. Yeah. And I'm sitting there and I'm waiting for Vince to go, yeah, dude, we did it. And the motherfucker doesn't say a word. Just you. Please me. Oh, no. Please me. I'm looking at him like, are you going to? He never said a fucking word. How did they take it, the other guys? They were bummed. Yeah. You're also among addicts. You're like, yeah, that's what we do.

43:26You're not that shocked ever. Yeah, it's the end of the tour. You're in the right place at the wrong time. The other thing I think about that would have been stressful for me, you're much sweeter, I think, than you present. It's even the fact that you had to admit that. Yeah, I know. To the dude who says a lot about your spirit. And also you're the dude who went and wanted to be alone in his garage and play his drums. I was on a show called Punk'd, right? And when I was on that show, the kind of dudes that would stop me were so aggro. They're like, bro, fucking punk. You know, it was like, it was so much.

44:00They'd squeal to a stop at a stoplight. Just be screaming at me. And I'm like, this isn't my group. Like, I'm not into this kind of attention. Were you a bit in a prison? Like, you represented this thing that was permission to rage and get out all your teenage fucking male everything. Yeah. You had to interact all the time with a lot of dudes that were fucking aggro. Was that hard to have that fan base? Not that you weren't grateful for them, but just... Yeah. Wouldn't you have rather been approached by the ballerinas? I saw you dance at Kennedy Center and wow, you're beautiful. Exactly, yeah.

44:37But you got all the, oh yeah, bro. Yeah. Crew. Yeah. No emotions, no feelings. We're never going to talk about anything that hurts us. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. I love those type of people. But yes, it's also kind of like, oh boy, this is it. Yeah, these guys want me to go berserk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, one thing I got, I think Monica would really love to know about this. I certainly did. That you had a little spell where you were a gigolo. Oh yeah, I do want to know about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were a male escort for a minute. For a minute, yeah. Nikki and I both were. You both were.

45:15Is this in the beginning before the band blew up? Very beginning when we had all moved into an apartment together. And then we meet this lady who's the madame. How old was she? Was she a lot older than you guys? Yeah, she was a few years older than us. And that's where we met and then started talking. She's like, I got work for you guys. And dude, this was at a time where we're all living together. And we literally, our manager would give us$20 a week to live on. Each guy got 20 bucks a week. We saw some big numbers. Yeah. And we were like, okay, fuck it, let's do it. How many dates do you think you went on?

45:55Probably nine or ten. And you said they were often older ladies who just wanted some companionship. Yes. And then sometimes they wanted more. Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes they didn't want more. Sometimes they just wanted to hang out. Sometimes go and just sit and have dinner with them. Really? Yeah. Whoa. And that's it. Just dinner. Literally. Just wanted company just to dine with. Yeah. And then sometimes they're like, I'd like you to come over. Yeah, and then you gotta do that. That would happen. Were you able to compartmentalize? If you're just going and having these dates and sometimes having sex with them, you just like put that out of your mind?

46:30I think if you're a jiggle, you have to do that, right? You have to like compartmentalize. Lights down low. Lights down. Real low. Spring the lights down. But you know what? I think I was lucky too because a couple of like the older women that I got, they were actually really fun. Yeah, I bet they were. They're a fucking wild ass lady. Well, for some older lady to be hiring. Exactly. That's already someone open to some stuff. She's got to be pretty open and wild anyway. And so a couple of them, I was fortunate enough to have some good time. Yeah, yeah. I believe that for sure. But the light's down low.

47:04Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know.

47:09How much money did you make? Oh, I'd get 500 bucks. Oh, nice. Okay. 500 bucks. Yeah, compared to your 20. In 1980? Yeah, I know. That's like$15 ,000 to$102 ,000 today. Totally. If you were living on$20 a week, yeah, you just 50x$20 a week, you got$500 for a couple hours. You're going to Gil Turner's and stocking up on some liquor.

47:34Okay, how many times did the band break up and get back together? I left in 2000. So it's been a couple of times. And then in 2016, we had decided, you know what? Let's go out on a high note here, let it rip, and not run this thing into the ground. And then all of a sudden we're playing like county fairs and not so rad gigs. Then it gets sad. Rather than burn it out, we're like, let's just cut it. And 2016, we kind of officially... I don't understand the motivation to do this. Like bands do this all the time. It's like, why even declare? Who knows? Maybe you'll fucking want to do it again in four years and maybe you won't.

48:18I know. We didn't want to be one of those. We just, we were like, we don't deserve to kind of fucking fade out. Let's take this fucking thing out at the top and then bail. The last thing we wanted to ever do was be another one of those bands that like, oh, they got back together. Right. Yeah. We reunited for another. They're playing at a tractor pull. Yeah, we were just like, no, let's make it official. And we signed this whole thing. You're never allowed to perform as the band outside of the band, right? Yes. Yeah. That part's cool. I think that's right. Yeah. But I think you guys might have mis-assessed your future.

48:55Yeah. There's no reason you're not Metallica. Yeah, right. There's no reason you're going to dwindle into the county fair. Yeah, I don't know. There was some weird fear that we had. And I think we all, in general, did want to go out on a high note. Like honor the band in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't want to overstay. You're welcome a little bit. Yes, thank you. I get it. It's like ending a show after four seasons. You could keep doing it, but it's like, no, it's done now. It's good to be done here where it's still good. I mean, I agree with that, but then also like, I'm going to see Metallica in October at The Sphere.

49:31I can't fucking wait. You know, Rolling Stones still play. Yeah, there's plenty of examples. Yeah. Okay, so you and Theo talked about this, And I want you to talk about how you can get kind of lost in a purgatory if you're a musician or anyone that does live performances. Theo related, but of course, you made a great point. It's like, unlike a stand-up, a stand-up, you go do stand-up on the weekends and maybe you do one show in the week, but you're coming home nonstop. Yeah. And you're like, when you go on tour, you leave your house and you're not back for two years. Yeah. That's a wild experience, I think, mentally.

50:06Yeah. And then you guys were both relating to this feeling of like being on the road and desperately wanting to be home. And then once you're home for five minutes. The grass is always greener, right? Yes. How do you come to peace with that weird tension? And does it like kind of just fuck you up permanently? I still wrestle with that one. If you're home too long, you're like, fuck, I got to get out there and rock shit. And then if you're out there too long, you're like, I would fucking shoot my mom right in the back to sleep in my own bed. Yeah. And is there no option to design these things? An impossible balance.

50:40Why can't you design these tours where you do go home once a month for a week or something? We're doing that now, as a matter of fact. That's how you're touring now. Yeah, this summer we're going out for, I think, three months. And that's it. Okay, you start in July. How much did you bring your boys on the road? I'd bring them out any chance I could because you miss a lot of shit. How old are they now? My oldest son is going to be 30 in a couple days. Wow. No shit. Yeah, and my youngest is a year younger. They're all growed up. Yeah. Yeah, they're all growed up. And did you have anxiety watching them grow up?

51:15Like, oh, when is the addiction thing gonna catch them? No, that's crazy because I never thought that. My one son is sober. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, he ran it like crazy. I don't know, do you think that stuff is - Hereditary? Yeah. The saying we love is like genetics loads the gun and trauma pulls the trigger. Ah. I believe that. Okay. I also believe you could just be exposed to it and pick it up. Yeah, I'm not sure what. Yeah, like do you think of your childhood as being traumatic? No, not at all. And is addiction in your family at all? No. It's not. Yeah. Okay, so you kind of, yeah, you just came to it naturally.

51:56I hope it's not my fucking fault. So no, I never really thought about that too much until it happened. And then I went, uh-oh, fuck, what is this? There's so many moments in our pop culture that are defined by you at different moments. You're just like, you took over pop culture. What do you think you lost and what did you gain by this really heightened experience? Privacy? Mm-hmm. Lost? We interviewed Pamela a couple years ago. And yeah, her explaining like the tension living in Malibu with the photographers and everything that happened was just being documented. Sounds. She spoke quite highly of you.

52:39Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the connection you guys will always have. Yeah, totally. Yeah, we loved talking to her. Yeah, she's great. But it did not sound fun. No, dude, it was not. Not cool. That was a weird time. It's hard enough to be wrestling what you and I have wrestled anonymously. That already would be hard enough. But then also you add in this other element of the public. Fuck. Do you think on any level you sought out the attention? No. You don't think so. No, hell no. You had enough. Yeah. It found you. Yeah. Yeah. I call it a shit magnet. Oh, yeah. Yeah. In 2001, the Dirt, the autobiography that the band put out came out.

53:25Yeah. That was huge. They made a movie out of it. I love hearing this. You love the movie. Love it. That makes me so happy. Yeah. It's rare. We've all seen some pretty shitty rock kind of doc movies. Yeah. Especially when your brand is cool. Right. Depicting it's hard. That's more dangerous for a monthly crew to participate in a show and it's soft. That can be rough. You wrote your own biography in 05, Tommy Land. What was it you were wanting to be known about you that wasn't known from the dirt? Just more personal rather than not about the band, more what was going on in my life then. There was a lot to talk about and a lot to not get my side of anything out.

54:13Just the truth. Right, your experience through all of this. Right, yes. Did you watch the Man on the Run documentary? The Paul McCartney one? Amazing. Amazing. I just watched it. Jesus, dude. I'm wondering if you had this feeling like I never took a minute to imagine what it's like to leave the Beatles at 27. I was just like, oh, yeah, the dude's in the Beatles. He was happy. It was like, no, he was 27. He had his whole life ahead of him. He still wants to be a musician. Yeah. And he lives under this fucking shadow. He's the one guy who can say, like, I'm never going to top this thing. He can probably say that definitively.

54:48And yet he found a way to do it. Which is insane. It's impossible. And so much failure along the way, right? Like the first two albums no one liked. His band fucking quits when he wants to record in Nigeria. And then he writes that album that becomes as big as a Beatles album. Yes. It's almost impossible, right, that he was able to do it again. Yeah, that is insane. Yeah, were you relating when you were watching that? Yes. I'm like, yes, dude. Same, leave Motley Crue. The age is what freaked me out because I didn't realize that's what freaks you out because I know what I was doing at 27. I wasn't coming off the Beatles.

55:24Right. Yeah, so tell me when you started doing solo work or when you did Method of Mayhem or any of these projects you've done post-Montley Crue. Yeah. How much of that do you feel the weight of that? Like, oh, God, everything will be measured against Motley Crue. Yeah, there is that. But you know what? I don't really focus on that. What I enjoy the most is I call it, you know, my adult sandbox. It's like I get to do creatively whatever I want to do. That is the fun part. And that's my main focus and objective is for that kind of work outside of Motley is I can do whatever I want to do. This is such an exploration.

56:07You know what I mean? Like, dude, anything goes. I don't have somebody going like, oh, it doesn't sound like Motley. This is where I really get to wield my creativity. You got into DJing for a while. You're kind of like into electronic stuff. You're into really everything. I've always been that way, man. Super eclectic into everything. Everything but country music. That's my only thing that I dislike. I don't know why, but I can't. When I think of country music, I just cannot stop. The song comes into my mind and I don't know why, But maybe that's part of the reason I fucking don't really like it.

56:45Put another log on fire. Cook me up some bacon and some beans. Sew my socks and wash my old blue jeans. You sound good singing it. Cook me up some bacon and put another log on fire. Aren't I always nice to your kid sister? Don't I take her driving every night? Oops. Yeah, so that's not the song that's going to get you in the country for sure. And my buddies have tried. You need to go to stagecoach. Oh, yeah. It's nothing but chicks. And I'm like, I'm good. I'm good. I'm happily married. Chick phase is over. Yeah. We're post-chick phase of our life. I mean, I got to bring this up just because I almost fought him too.

57:34You got in this fight with Kid Rock. Did you guys punch each other? No, that's the fucking craziest thing. is nobody got at each other. Okay. There was people on us so quick pulling us apart, but there's a couple swings and a miss. Uh-huh. And then we were... Okay. So it was not even a fight. No. Yeah. Not at all. Like, people were like, oh, yeah, get on. Fucking punch Tommy Lee. Dude, he never touched me. Like, it never happened. Uh-huh. Yeah. I don't know what edit you saw, but... Yeah. What was the impetus of that? I don't even know. Do you know what? I got up to go to the bathroom. I come back from the bathroom and he's sitting in my seat.

58:14Oh. You didn't call seat backs? Just kidding. Seat filler shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They go to commercial. Or he just saw that I left and went, I'm going to go sit in his seat. Star shit. I don't know what the objective was, but I came back and he's in my seat and I'm like, bro, what are you doing? Yeah, yeah. And he's like, fuck you. It was his on. Jeez. But it's fake on. It seemed intentional. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, yeah, yeah. I don't think he just was filling a seat. Yeah. Okay, so explain Tommy Rides again. You already have that album, and now how do you re-tackle the same album? We're talking about re-releasing it for its 20th year anniversary, and I just built a Dolby Atmos recording studio in my home, and once I kind of went down that rabbit hole, I was just like, oh, my God.

59:03This is the most insane thing I've ever heard in my entire life. And I can never listen to stereo ever again after this. Because Atmos has sound coming from what? The ceiling? Above. Above, behind. Sides, rear. You're literally in the mix. You're like, are you fucking kidding me? Anyway, I'm obsessed. Yeah. And talking about re-releasing for the 20th anniversary, Tommy Land, The Ride. And there's no Dolby Atmos mix of it. So I was like, I want to remix it and sort of reimagine it. If we're going to do it, why not? That's what we ended up doing. Are you technically quite savvy, like on the board and stuff?

59:41Oh, yeah. You are. Oh, yeah. You geek out on that. Totally. When you're making music now, though, does it start with drums? Not always. Sometimes it'll be a guitar riff, a drum beat. Usually there's some sort of melody in my head, and I'll start banging around on a keyboard just to get the melody out. It's funny because in the Tommyland Rides Again, the new version that just came out, there's a new song called Stupid World that I put on this record. I had written that in like, it was COVID. 2020. Yeah. I'd written that around then. So going back and finding that, I was like, it is so fucking appropriate right now because the world, to me, we're in a really fucking stupid place.

1:00:27It's just really stupid everywhere. I wrote this around COVID. Also a stupid time. Yeah, also a stupid time. It was really bizarre. Yeah, really felt like the world might end. And I didn't think much of it. We write things all the time and put them away, and you're on to something else. And anyway, so in the new studio, I was opening up some older songs and files that I had been working on for the last few years. And I found that, and I was like, oh, man, this is so fucking appropriate. And going back and finding old work is really fucking cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

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1:05:48Have there been instruments that you've fallen in love with after doing solo stuff and wanting to create your own stuff? Have you picked up other instruments that you didn't play in the 80s? No, I've always played keyboards, sing. I would sing on a lot of Motley demos because we couldn't get Vince to come over and sing. keyboards, bass, guitar, drums, obviously. I kind of play enough of everything. So when you're on tour this year, will you be behind the drum kit? On drums. The whole time? Yeah, and play piano. Really quick, the physicality, what are you, 63 now? Yeah. And you've treated your body like absolute dog shit.

1:06:27It's like shocking you're as healthy and robust as you are. But drums, man, is a fucking hard instrument to play. Dude, it's insane. And when you see these like Gene Kruber, these old dudes who still were fucking slain at like 70, you're like, how do they have even? There's still, yeah. You know, it's crazy, man. It's so physical. Is it what's kept you in shape? 100%. By the time I get done after a two-hour show, I'm fucking toast. Just physically, and then your ears, you're just laying in bed hearing. Oh, wow. Just really high-pitched, you know, a little squeal. You're like, okay, we're done, right?

1:07:04Stop. Oof. You don't realize it. Man, I sweat like a motherfucker. I don't really like gain any size like muscle. And I weigh the same I've weighed in high school. Like what is this fucking deal? What is happening? What genetics do you have? So I clipped one of those pedometers on my shoe. I clicked it on before the show. Take it on after the show. And it said 13.3 miles. Oh my God. I just did 13 miles sitting down. Yeah, from the kick drop. Yeah. It was all that. And I was like, okay, that explains a lot. Yeah. I'm pretty much doing more than my daily life. You're doing half marathons. Yeah. Oh, my God.

1:07:45Do you have any repetitive injury stuff? Like, do you have wrists or shoulder? You've held up pretty fucking good. I'm pretty good, man. I had one hand surgery because I had a, it's called Dupitrens. I can never fucking pronounce it. Dupitrens contracture. Okay. And it's where the nerves in your hand that you have running through here, over time, they start to pull. This finger was stuck in this position and both of these. So they had to go in and cut that and get rid of it. That's the only thing that's really physically, and that's a scary one, it's my hands, dude. Yeah, exactly. Do you ever wonder what you would look like had you not done anything?

1:08:26Because I'm inclined to think genetically you might be a freak. Like, you might have looked 38 years old right now. Oh, have you not done drugs? Yeah, you've not done anything. Maybe. I mean, can you imagine? Because you look great. Oh, thanks, bud. Yeah. I can only imagine what you would have looked like if you had taken the Engelbert Humperdinck route. Fuck, I'm looking all 18. He's fucking 63. Okay, guys, that's my last question. Do you still have dreams? I'm wrestling. I'm behind you 10 years, but I still wonder how much fuel I have in the tank to be productive and engaged. I just might want a bonsai tree the rest of my life.

1:09:05What kind of goals and motivations do you have? And do you feel like as you're getting older, it's harder to give a shit about that stuff? I'm not sure what that is, but not that I haven't set goals in the future. I think that I have stopped projecting. For me, at least, it gives me anxiety thinking about things that haven't happened or could happen or this. I feel like these days I'm living really for the fucking moment we are right here right now. Like, Bill, that's a big change. I used to do a lot of that, looking forward. And I think right now, these days for me, I'm really comfortable with just looking right here.

1:09:46Do you think it helps that you've had all the dream outcomes and the dream outcomes didn't really feel as good, as anticipated? So you're like, oh, maybe it's actually not about the outcome. It's just about like how much I enjoy it in route to the outcome. That's a pretty deep one, dude, because I remember a little kid jumping up and down on my fucking bed, playing air guitar and playing cardboard boxes and going like, I'm going to be that guy. Like, I'm going to fucking do this knowing that, you know, so it's weird. Like, sometimes you do have those projections, and other times you're just so pumped just to fucking be here.

1:10:28Are you proud of yourself when you think about that little boy? Like, you did do it. Fuck, yeah. Yeah. That's so cool. The one thing, my poor fucking parents, all's I can say. A drummer constantly making fucking noise. And then when he finally leaves the house, you're like, oh, my God, is he going to live through this? Right, exactly. Your mom going, Tom, why are you doing so much? Yeah. All the time. Yeah. Brutal. I do have a question. Has there been jealousy in the band? Was there jealousy amongst the members? Like, did anything get crazy? No, not really. Really? I don't think so. That's surprising.

1:11:09But he's in a tricky position to evaluate that because as the drummer, weirdly, he and Vince were so famous. Everyone had a lot of fame. I feel like maybe they'd be jealous of you because you're kind of the name. Yeah, exactly. I would. I don't know. Yeah. I think you're the lasting name that's come out of that band. Gotcha. That other generations know. Yeah, you're right. Maybe that's a question for them. Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess I want to end on this. It's just a compliment. You have navigated so much messy business. You think? I mean, yeah. You're from a different era. It was back like when you were in a rock band, you slept with someone in every city.

1:11:52No one had phones. No one tweeted about it. No one did anything about it. No phones being a big one. You made it through that whole phase. But what I think is super telling is like, I've met a couple of folks that you've shared years with and those folks like you a lot still. That's cool. I think your sweetness has really carried you throughout a very tumultuous and what could have been many times thanks for playing moments. You got to get out of here forever now. And that never really came your way. And I think it's a testament to your kind of sweetness. That's sweet. Yeah, no. You're just fucking likable, right?

1:12:31Yeah, you're very likable. But when you were upstairs, your wife did say that you posted your dick on Twitter. Yeah, how did that happen? Yeah, we want to know how that happened. Just drunk. Okay, just drunk. I thought people had missed it. Yeah. Yeah, because I do recall earlier, I said, do you think sometimes you draw the attention? And then, you know, I am circling back to maybe there's a kernel of that. Yeah. We might not be able to help it. I mean, it's like you're a rock star. It's who you are. It's your identity. Kind of expected, maybe. I don't know. I've had all the addictions. But sex and love addiction, for sure, 10 out of 10 for me.

1:13:12And really, once I got into therapy like six years ago, really understanding. No, the first drug was this eighth grade girl liked me. It was the most popular girl in the school. And I've never been higher in my life than her asking me out. Just that was fucking unbelievable. Do you feel like you've had that addiction? Oh. Is that the first drug? Girls approval? Yeah. There was a girl in my school, in high school, the hottest chick in the whole school. stunning beautiful I would just be like I wonder if that's even possible yeah no I can't ask I can't and then when that happens yeah yeah it takes over your whole life right like when that girl likes you you're just fucking walking around like you are the king of everything the next thing you know you're in your van on acid fucking the girl who you thought you could never ever be with and you're like what just happened whoa dude And then you're just chasing that for the rest of your life.

1:14:12That kind of set the pace. Yeah. Fuck. Which one do you think was harder to let go of? Drinking and drugs or female approval and attention? Drinking and drugs. Harder. Way harder. Way harder. Hard, hard. It's hard. Well, Tommy, this has been a blast. I want everyone to check out Tommy Land Rides again. remastered with a new song that's out right now. You can listen to it everywhere. And then go see Tommy fucking play. Rock shit. Come to the tour. Where do people go to get tickets for the tour? Motleycrew.com. Okay. It's a good place. Everything's there. Dates, tickets, da-da-da-da. So listen to Timeline Rides again.

1:14:58Go see them play this summer. It'll be memorable. You won't regret it. This has been a blast. I'm glad I got to apologize for my behavior at 16 or 15. I was 15. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks for coming. Yeah, long time coming. Yeah, dude, totally. Be well. Oh my God. Just a quick reminder that as part of our summer break, here's a rerun of one of our favorite fact checks. Judd Brewer. Judd Brewer. Can you even think of another Judd? Apatow. Yep. I'm glad we had a neurologist on. Yeah, well. Neuroscientist. Very good timing for you and all your thoughts of neural pathways. That's right. Transmission.

1:15:41I didn't get to ask him all the questions I wanted about. Your ailment. Yeah. I thought maybe that would not be productive for us, but I had questions. We should get an arthritis doctor on here so I can really perv out. So you're allowed, but I'm not. No, you are. I'm just saying I'm surprised we haven't gotten an arthritis doctor that I can basically just make treat me real time in the interview. I know. Okay, so Judd, he talks about the two-body problem, which is a dilemma for life partners in academia relating to the difficulty of both spouses obtaining jobs at the same university or within a reasonable commuting distance from each other.

1:16:22That would be very hard. It's like acting, I guess. And I really like the idea of professors being married for some weird reason. I don't know why. I don't care if machinists are married to one another. Me too. Doctors. I guess I want doctors to be married to. Really? Yeah, because I imagine their work is so esoteric it would take another doctor to really geek out on what they're interested in. Oh, interesting. I like the idea of a doctor with someone who doesn't know anything about medicine so they can help. Benefit. Yeah, exactly. You only need one doctor in the pair. Well, that's John and Gioia, John Favreau.

1:16:56He's a genius because he went out and got himself Gioia, who is an emergency room doctor. and I would watch them raise kids and I thought, anything can happen. They can let anything happen because Joy is here. Yeah, I know. She can just fix everyone right up. That's what I want. I always felt so safe knowing she's around. I was like, I can go into cardiac arrest. She'll handle it. Anything. Yeah. It's about the best person to have around. We were just talking about that the other day. My friend Laura. Yeah. And I, because we're in this group of all of our friends and we're single, although now she has a quarantine boyfriend.

1:17:24Yeah. Don't put her on blast. She might still have some lures in the water. You're making her Facebook, what's the term? official no their their facebook official she posted something the other day about him oh yeah oh great great but anywho generally we're the single ones we were saying who should we date who's going to add something new to the group and what are the categories i'm really glad you guys are thinking that way yeah we have to yeah we're trying to be i think you need an er doctor that way i can like fuck around on these vacations and not even worry about it well i have been saying that.

1:17:59I like a doctor in the group for sure. Especially people are doing backflips and stuff off the house into the pool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need a doctor there. And somebody said, this was on a girl's Marco Polo. Marco Polo, if you're listening, I'd love some free, I think it's trying to make me pay now. It's not letting me do two times and it's a problem. Wow. So that, by the way, what a great way to monetize that because you got to go two times. Once you're used to going two times, going back is miserable. By the way, we mean double speed. Yeah. So if you use Marco Polo, it's a fantastic app. It is.

1:18:35It really is phenomenal. But you'll become immediately aware of how fucking slow everyone gets their thoughts out. It's maddening. Yes. They need a quadruple speed, to be honest. I think they do have a triple in this payment package. Worth it. It probably is. I should just buy it. Maybe you should buy it for your birthday's around the corner. Let me buy a year worth of fast-forwarding through all your friends. Oh, how sweet. I'd be happy to buy that for you. Should I buy that for Kristen? For her upcoming? I think it's like$7. I don't think you need to buy that as a birthday. Nobody would just be thoughtful.

1:19:09I'm so fucked. This birthday is knocking on the back door. I thought about this idea. What do you think about this idea? We shouldn't be doing it on here. I'll cut it. She doesn't listen. I'll cut it. Maybe the viewers will text us ideas. Okay, go on. They're listeners, not viewers, Dex. So here's what I thought the other day. What would you think about this? I'll book like five bedrooms at a hotel and I'll get a babysitter get on the same floor of like a nice hotel here in the city maybe the peninsula or something it'll be like the Richardson's the Hanson's you and we'll just all wear like bathrobes and we'll get room service and we'll lay in bed and then maybe we'll go out on the pool maybe we won't yeah that sounds lovely because that isn't that what she would want just to be able to lay in bed for seven hours and read or knit and do all that shit and then she could check in and out with you guys if she wanted to be social she could if she didn't.

1:19:55Right. I think that's good. Yeah. I think she wants some just peace. Yeah. Yeah. So that sounds wonderful. I like that idea. Okay. I'm going to pursue it a little further. Okay. All right. And I have an idea. I'm scared to say it. Okay. But I'll say it maybe because maybe some, you're right, maybe someone could help. Yeah. Again, she's not going to hear this. What if someone like DMs her or something and it is spoiled? Well, don't be a dick. How about this? If you're out there, don't be a fucking dick. Well, she doesn't read her DMs. So I guess I'm not worried about that. Just if you know her, if we're all friends, don't fuck this up.

1:20:28Yeah. So when she was in Paris over a year, about a year ago, and there was this chandelier that she wanted very badly. It was really on the fence about, well, should I get it? Should I not? Too expensive. She thought it was too expensive. That's why I like her. She's frugal. And. Ish. She did not end up getting it. And since we've had so many conversations, she regrets it. and it was at a, it's a vintage chandelier. It's going to be - Fucking at a pawn shop in Paris. It's going to be hard to track down, but I'm going to do it. Oh, you're saving the day. And we're going to get it. I really hope it's still available.

1:21:09That's my, I'm worried it got bought. If you bought it, if you're a listener and you bought it, can you give it to us? Because it's her birthday. This is the exact kind of challenge for you though. I love it. Yeah, this is your sweet spot. I really want this to work. Internet search, tracking something down, sleuthing, gumshoeing. Veronica Marzing. Veronica Marzing, yeah. It would only be appropriate that Ron Mars would get something that had to be Ron Mars for her birthday. I really hope it works out. If it doesn't work out, she'll divorce us. I guarantee I'm going to hate it because if— You're not going to like the look of it.

1:21:45Yeah, I already know that. I already know that she made the right decision and didn't buy it. No, why? I just know. I can tell. She buys things if... No. No? She wants it. She has said it so many times. Where's it going? I think it should go in your bathroom. Oh. And I won't like it. So I'll have to see it all. But it'll be over the tub. I just won't look up. It's beautiful. All right. I won't look up. You've seen it and you like it? I can't remember if I like it.

1:22:18She likes it and that's all that matters. That's all that matters. Okay. He said that his dad was a deadbeat. Okay. And then I kind of got interested in where that phrase came from. Oh, yeah. Ooh. I didn't really find it. Oh, shit. Okay, because I wanted to guess. Well, yeah, let's guess. I think it's a newspaper term. I think it's people who got assigned beats. You know, they call that in journalism. You have the science beat. You have the financial beat. I think it's a beat that doesn't generate any stories. Like you've been given this completely dead beat. Oh. And then that just ended up because newspaper writers affect our colloquials that it just emanated from there as if it emanated from sports.

1:23:00You know, so many of our sayings are like they're sports related. Don't strike out. Right. Yeah. I'm guessing it's coming from the newspaper world. Interesting. But how does it equate to a deadbeat parent? Well, just people probably were using, well, that's a deadbeat. That's a deadbeat. You know, it's something useless. Oh. And then it just got transferred to Deadbeat Parade, Deadbeat thing. That or the only other thing I can think of that has beats. Well, there's two. Well, I got two more. There's beats in cop patrols. You have different beats. You could have a deadbeat. Like there's nothing going on.

1:23:38So similar. Similar. Yeah. And then I guess you could say musically like that's a deadbeat. It doesn't add anything to the song. I'm going with the newspaper guess. I like the newspaper guess. When I hear deadbeat, just the sound of it, I hear like physical abuse. Oh, no. Deadbeat, dad. Doesn't mean that. No, I know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know it doesn't mean that at all. You're absent. Exactly. But when I hear the words dead and beat, it sounds to me like violent and somebody was beaten to death. Well, then, right. That would be, let's see. So deadbeat, it would be beat dead. That's the phrase you're afraid of.

1:24:17The person was beat dead. Well, sure. I don't like that. I don't like that. Yeah, let me flip it. Okay. The legal definition defines deadbeat parents as – yeah, I like that it's parents. It's not really fair for us to say deadbeat dad even though that's – It's fair. Okay. It's 100 percent fair. Well, in his case, it was that and yeah. Yeah. Okay. The legal definition defines deadbeat parents as parents of either gender who have freely chosen not to be supportive parents or who do not pay their child support obligations. However, the label has become so generalized that the freely chosen aspect is too often forgotten.

1:24:51Most of the fathers lumped in as deadbeat dads are not dads unwilling to support their children. They are simply unable to afford the child support. Yeah. When 66 % of all child support not paid by fathers is due to an inability to come up with the money. Calling all the dads who miss payments deadbeats is painting with far too broad of a brush. Interesting. My father never paid child support. and he drove a Corvette. And he had a lot of money. So he was technically a deadbeat dad. I hate to say that out loud, but it is the truth. That's where a lot of my ire stands. That's the thing I can't make peace with.

1:25:27He was lovely. He was sweet to me. And then he was also, he didn't pay child support. He loved you. Yeah, he did. He loved me. But it's hard for me to reconcile the fact that he didn't fucking pay child support. Is it because he was always on the verge of not having any money? He just spent it all on himself? And always, as a rule of thumb, if he had written a book on finance, it would have been spend 170 % of what you make. That was his. So there were periods of his life where he actually made a ton of money. Like, I think he made almost a million dollars a year in Michigan in like 98. Wow. But he went and immediately bought a million dollar house, a Jaguar, two Harleys, blah, blah, blah.

1:26:02He spent more than money. He had this gangster apartment in Chicago overlooking the river. How did he not be forced to pay? My mother never took him to court. That's what would have happened. She could have taken him to court for not paying child support. She could have reported him. Right. And she just never did. Okay. So speaking of, in the 80s, how many single moms? Okay. By 1980, the number of single-parent families stood at 5.9 million, which represented an increase of 71 % during the 70s. The rate of increase slowed significantly during the 80s, although the number of one-parent families continued to increase.

1:26:42Well, my parents got divorced in 1978. Oh, so they were part of this group. I was still one of very few. I think we were the only family on our block. Really? That had a single parent. Yeah. It's so amazing how it's changed. I mean. But it was really segregated economically. So Axford Acres was pretty nice. It was like middle class and everyone was married. But then all my friends who I liked hanging out with the poor kids from LaSalle Gardens and all these different mobile home parks, all those people's parents were divorced. Well, it makes sense, right? If you only have one income coming in, you're most likely going to have less money.

1:27:21That's true. And there's other factors, but yeah. Yeah. I think the alcoholism rate is higher. I think the domestic disturbance, you know, there's a lot of things inextricably married to low income. That's unfortunate. Right. But it's all connected, right? Maybe like if you're by yourself, you're raising three kids. That's maybe a little miserable. And you don't have you have one job. You don't have very much money. Like maybe you're more willing to drink and then it's a spiral. But I have to imagine there's a really high correlation between low income and unwanted pregnancies. I don't think rich kids have nearly as many unwanted babies.

1:28:00Yeah, well, exactly. Yeah, so it all feeds into itself. Well, and again, like health care, like rich kids get on birth control or have abortions. And there was just yesterday the Supreme Court, the Louisiana abortion case. There's a bunch of horse shit. These trap laws where they say like you have to have. The one of them was the hallways had to be long and are wide enough to support two hospital beds passing each other at speed. Like something that would never happen at any place. Yeah. And this one specifically was there had to be another type of hospital within some range of the clinic. In case something went wrong.

1:28:43Yeah. And then I also think maybe that those doctors also had to be resident doctors at other hospitals, which is just insane. Yeah. Yeah. But it was another positive Supreme Court ruling. There's been three. He has it, Roberts. Yeah. He voted and his real allegiance, which is very admirable, is precedent. That's his thing. It's like he won't let his opinion override precedent. Like he was basically deciding, no, we've decided this case. It was Roe v. Wade. Right. And this is in opposition to Roe v. Wade. There was a case in Texas, I think. Or more specific. That was very, it was this exact thing.

1:29:20Oh, okay. I think Roe v. Wade is still like, quote, on the table. Chopping block. Yeah, which, oh my God. Yeah, anyway, so that was good. But, you know, it's just, you see how it all ties together, right? So if the clinic can't be in a rural area, then people who are in poor areas can't get abortions. And then it's just this cycle. It's all part of the same conversation we're having over and over again. where especially like black people are again in these positions like that they can't get out of. So this was good. This was a good news for the Supreme. Well, as that systems guy told us, whatever result you're seeing is a perfectly designed system to create that result.

1:30:06Yeah. So if you don't like the results, you can't just wish the results are different. The system is creating them perfectly. Yeah. The meme that, you know, has been going around is the system is not broken. It was built this way. Right, right, right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. It works perfectly. Yeah. To get the result that we're getting. Oh, yes. You talked about the 60 Minutes food chemist. And I read this article and it is. Yeah. They just actively make an addiction. Yeah. And I'm going to say I'm not. I would say I'm not as cuckoo about food as I think a lot of my friends are. Yeah.

1:30:41I'm not like. But you were vegan for a bit. You've done no sugar. I've tried things to feel good for sure. I guess that's what I'm saying is it's not my cause per se I'm not someone who's like anti-GMO and all these different things But when I saw that I did think Like I guess let me back up If people want to fucking eat McDonald's go get them I guess that's what I'm saying I have friends that probably want to make that illegal Right So I'm like go get them, get fat, die, whatever You know that part of me is a libertarian Don't die Now but don't die But you know but it is your right to With that said I'm watching that It's not unlike the technology in our apps where I was watching that and I realized we are defenseless.

1:31:24There are people that are much smarter than us and have a much better plan to trick your body that anyone would be powerless over. If they make the taste disappear immediately. So, I mean, you can't compete with that. No. And I was like, how can an individual compete with billions of dollars being spent to make you do this? And that's where we get into this huge ethical question, and it correlates currently to masks, right? Yes, everyone technically has the right to die, to kill themselves. But you do not have the right to kill somebody else. Yeah, it's true. It's true. Again, and I just want to be on record as saying, look, I am way further on the right side of the spectrum about corona than all my friends.

1:32:10I've been wrong several times already, which I've admitted to. But I still am like, there ain't no stopping it. Unless the hospitals are overrun, let's just get this thing going. Protect the old people. Old people, it's on you. Hospitals are starting to get really crazy here. They just sent out like a big thing yesterday. They're getting worse. They're getting worse. Yeah. You know, part of me, again, the libertarian part of me is like, you know, old people are drastically outpacing the rest of the population for dying of this. And I'm sorry. I love my, my, well, I've lost my last grandparent recently, but I love, I loved my grandparents.

1:32:51It's on them to protect themselves. I'm sorry. It's I, part of me is like, you're the one that's at high risk. So you got to have your shit buttoned up. You got to not interact with people without masks you gotta but let me just okay that's i'm just telling you my position but i still have to do the right thing ethically even though i feel that way emotionally about it i have to do the safest thing possible yeah i have to do everything i can because some of those old people aren't gonna do it and they're stubborn and they have this that another reason and i i should be benevolent enough to help and i'm gonna do that i'm gonna go against what my instinct is to do and there's no arguing that if both people have masks on you're in the single digit percentage of transmission so as opposed to 70 percent i guess here's my thing it's like oh god i always i always use this no wonder they hate me if you're diabetic and you don't have insulin on you and you can't eat a bunch of carbs right now it's not my job to fucking take all the carbs out of the restaurant or not eat carbs in front of you.

1:34:01It's your job to monitor your blood sugar. So if you are susceptible to this disease, you got to protect yourself. That's not my job. But older people generally are the ones that need a little more help, right? So if I need to help my grandma, if I'm the one in charge of taking care of her and I have to go to the grocery store to buy us groceries and no one there is wearing a mask. And now I am totally susceptible and I bring that to them. They're being careful. That's the best case scenario. But I could bring it to them. But again, and not to be a dick, but you know, you shouldn't hang with your grandparents until there's a vaccine.

1:34:45But but what if they can't feed themselves? Oh, well, then you can drop shit off at their door. I mean, you don't have to interact with them. But older people need more help. They just need more help. Like my mom's sister is living with my grandparents right now. And that needs to happen. That's not like she just wants to that that needs to happen. And so if my aunt gets it, yes, she'll probably be fine, but they will not be fine. And it's not a choice for a lot of people. And a lot of people live, you know, we're privileged. We can be distant and we can do that. A lot of people don't have that luxury.

1:35:23They're a big family living in one house and you can't separate, you know? So it is up to us to have some social responsibility to help the people who are not in the positions we're in. Yeah. You know, my friend has it right now. I told you this whole story. We were supposed to go off-roading. Uh-huh. So my friend is a music producer and he and I were supposed to go off-roading and it was all set. And then he called me the day before. He's like, I'm so sorry, but I have to fly to Miami. Some big hip hop artist wanted him to come record the next morning. So he went and he was there for a few days and then he came back.

1:35:58And when he got back, he goes, yo, they do not give a fuck about Corona down there. No one had blank, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then he got it. He got it while he's there. So he has it right now. And I've been checking in with him to see like, you know, how's it? He's like, it's good. You know, my breathing hasn't been affected, which is good. But he said so the day before He was so fucked up that his wife was talking to him And he couldn't He's like I thought she was speaking another language And I was like oh my god I'm going downhill Went to bed woke up the next morning And was like Oh it passed I feel back to normal He's excited His wife makes him his favorite meal Pork chops with his mushroom gravy And he goes honey Did you change the recipe?

1:36:42No And she's like no He's like yeah you did what would you do different she's like honey i didn't do anything different he's like oh my god it tastes he can't taste anything he's like bring me a strawberry she brought him a strawberry he nothing he has no smell and no taste as of yesterday now hopefully that'll return see that's freaky this is it we don't know all the things yet i'm sure it'll return he'll be fine but well that's scary i hope he feels better well anyway it's important to have social responsibility well again that's the whole reason i laid out my whole thing is i'm telling you what i would want to do yeah but i am saying there is a time for individual rights and there is a time to get over that yeah you know yeah it's gonna be a year out of your life yeah gonna be a fucking year of your life of 80 years, hopefully.

1:37:37Yeah. That you had to wear a mask when you left the house at the risk of getting into a fight with you, which we're going to avoid. But I also, you do have to weigh the economy. You have to weigh what percentage of GDP drop will result in which amount of death and then compare that potential collateral death against what the deaths would have been from Corona. You just responsibly, you have to think of that. If the cure is worse than the disease if we end up killing people because people aren't getting screened for cancer and they're not getting their their vaccines on time and all these other things if that number ends up being worse than corona then logic would tell us we got to just eat corona and not because it'll be a net smaller death okay with all that said even if that was true you wearing your mask to places has no impact on any of that yeah you know it just doesn't yeah Yeah, I mean, again, it's a little more complicated than that.

1:38:33It's like it's disproportionately affecting one community. And if we just let those people die, that's not okay. You're speaking of the black and Latino? Yep. Yeah, rich people fare better. Like that's true and not fair. That's how it should be. Like the guy who owned the Clippers. Donald Sterling. Yeah, Donald Sterling. Oh yeah, he was a great guy. He's a better person. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

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1:40:09Okay. The Swedish word for not too much, not too little, legome. Legome. Just the right amount. Okay. And then we talk a little about shrooms on this podcast. And it seems apropos for me to say, since we recorded this, I have tried them. Yes, you tried them and I didn't even instigate it. You did not even instigate it. But I volunteered to be a part of it. Yes, and to be a babysitter. Yes, the sober companion. And I'm very grateful that there was a sober companion there. It was everything you said it was going to be. You were right. I'll say it again. I've said it a lot of times, but I'll say it again.

1:40:54I was wrong about Corona, but I was right about mushrooms. You were right. It was a lovely experience and it was really cool to see the world in a brand new way. Yeah. It's best to take your standard world you've seen all the time that you're familiar with and recognize how much your brain is in charge of assembling these photons in a way that you call reality. Yeah. And then all of a sudden your brain starts assembling them in a different way. Yeah. And it is a different reality. Yeah. And it cannot be experienced without that. Yeah. I mean, maybe some meditators can or something, but. Yeah. To walk down a street that you've walked down.

1:41:35I know it was, that was such a big takeaway for me is I just kept thinking I'm taking everything for granted. Yeah. Like this is beautiful. I walked down this street every not, you know. Enough. A lot. and I'm missing it. I'm missing it every time. I think what happens, like the best way to explain it, and we've had a lot of experts on here talk about how your brain is fantastic at filing things into the subconscious. So operating the car, you're not thinking about driving the car, you just drive the car because the whole program is running in the subconscious. Yeah. And we're also great at getting rid of distractions so we can focus on the things we want, which means filing everything else into that white noise category.

1:42:17And when you get on shrooms, it's no longer white noise. It's all right there. All these things that you've learned to ignore through design, you now can see. And I think probably for different people, there's a different level of that, right? Because we talked about this on a couple episodes ago, I feel that I'm in my head all the time. And you feel that way too. I'm in my head so much that I'm not paying attention to the physical world around me very often. And yeah, so this was such a different reality for me. Whereas for some other people, I think it wasn't as extreme. Right. It's not as big of a difference.

1:43:02Yeah. The other thing that's great at doing, and this is well-documented in, what's his name's book? Michael Pollan's book. Yeah, Michael Pollan's book is your brain's really, really good at comprehending you as an individual and then the world separate from you and around you. Yeah. And shrooms breaks down the barriers a bit of your sense of individualness and your sense of detachment. And you feel like when you touch the pavement and you touch the flower that you're really interacting with it. Like in a way that is not I'm this and that's that. It's like, oh, we're this thing. And I don't know.

1:43:44That's the thing I also like about it is how it kind of shatters this obsession of your identity. Yeah. Right. I guess. Well, so I had a tough start. Uh-huh. I got really scared. Everyone who I trusted looked bizarre. and so everyone's getting high and i had completely forgotten the most annoying part about doing drugs was that everyone just monitors how high they are for the first hour yeah are you i'm at three are you two i don't want well look at those trees let's look at those trees yeah oh is that leaf doing that no this leaf's not doing this is that leaf doing this no i can't feel anything i'm too high the whole thing yeah i was like i need to step out until everyone just feels high so i went inside and I started playing words with friends.

1:44:32Yeah. I was gone for 20 minutes and then it really hit you in that 20 minutes. Yes. And you were like, what the fuck? You told me you're going to help me and you've abandoned me. Yeah. I felt like you gave me drugs. Like, well, a lot. I felt like we've been talking about this for years. You've been trying to get me to do this for years. And then you, you, you left. Yes. Which I, which I did. I was very regrettable, But of all the people that were doing it, you were 0 % high. You were saying. I was, yeah. And I was like, oh, she's not even high. And this conversation is annoying. I'm going to go inside.

1:45:06I wasn't high. And then all of a sudden, I looked down at my hands. Because you had said that when you do shrooms, you look at your hands a lot. So I was kind of checking in with my hands to see. And they were normal. And then all of a sudden, I looked. And then they shriveled up into grandma hands right in front of my eyes. And it was so startling and scary. And I thought, am I a grandma now? Like I didn't know what was happening. Am I a grandma now? And then immediately I felt really unsafe and then abandoned. Yeah. And again, there's like layers of real life. This is why they're therapeutic.

1:45:47It's like whatever thing you really fear, it is going to be the loudest thing. If it goes wrong, it'll be the first thing that comes out. So it's like in real life, you're so linked to my train and Kristen's train. And there's a certain amount of powerlessness in that. Yeah. And what if we just disappear? And you're so linked to it. And then I just disappeared. Like it happened. I know. It was bad. And I was crying, which was, I think, a bummer for everyone. And then you came out. You came out to check on us. Well, I was like, oh, he's coming back. And then you came back and then you looked fuzzy.

1:46:30You didn't know if I was real. By the way, when I did come outside, you were crying and you were also laughing. You know that? You were bouncing back and forth between crying and laughing. Because we were telling the story about Ryan's dad calling. Uh-huh. And I was crying during that because I was not literally paying attention to it. I was crying, but then Ryan was like, Monica hates this story. And then I started laughing because obviously I was not thinking about the story, but that was like a funny thing to say. But I was still crying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when I got very involved, you were thinking you couldn't breathe.

1:47:06Yeah. And then you were really scared. And then I was like, okay, we need to reset. Let's go out on the street and let's take a little walk. And no one's ever stopped breathing in shrooms. Your body knows how to breathe. You don't have to think about breathing. Yeah. And then you came back. I did. And it was so impressive because when I saw you, I was like, oh, fuck, man. I told her to do this. It's gone south. Yeah. Generally, when it goes south, it stays south. Yeah. Fuck. Yeah. I really kind of misled you. And I was very pessimistic and bummed. And then 15 minutes into the walk, things started changing.

1:47:43And then you just had this very beautiful ride. I did. It was so sweet. Well, you said, listen, you can choose. For the next three hours, things are going to be fucked up looking. Yeah. And you get to decide how you see it. So I chose to enjoy it and find it beautiful. And I did it. And it was really spectacular. Yeah. It was really cool. I was so happy on the ride home in the minivan, Chrysler Pacifica. No better vehicle to have someone on shrooms. Okay, we don't need, we'll have to do that. No, I love it. I love it. They don't like it. I love it. You just go, you were right. This isn't to be missed on planet Earth.

1:48:25And I was like, oh, thank God. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that. I feel that. Yeah, it was real. Yeah, it was real. I was like, man, I fucking, I would have put that on, like, if that hadn't gotten turned around, that would have been as bad as if you didn't end up getting your house after I said you're going to get the house. It was that level or worse. You put a lot of pressure on yourself, which you shouldn't have. But it. No, it was dumb that I split. But again, you really weren't high at all. Everyone else was a little high and you simply weren't. I was like, who knows? It hit so fast, in my opinion.

1:49:01Maybe not. Maybe it was more slow than I thought. Well, that's another thing that just is relevant, is that the initial idea was that people were going to microdose, which I was against. I was like, there's really no point in microdosing, in my opinion. now it might be great for people with like severe depression and they can do it and still work and i i have no opinion on that but yeah for the experience i wanted you to have microdosing isn't it so right it started as a microdosing experiment yes quickly no one felt anything so then you guys doubled the microdose dose which still i was like do what i know you should do which is like have a cap and a stem and fucking let's see what happens yeah so after this is what also made it really tricky for me to help navigate you guys is like you guys took the one pill then you 25 minutes later you took another pill and then then i go some people had then i go get real shrooms and bring yes someone's eating chocolate i'm like who even makes this chocolate you guys that could have 10 000 milligrams of psilocybin or one what do you know so and so then real mushrooms were procured in real form that i knew about yeah caps and stems but at this point that's now 75 minutes from when you guys took the first and i'm like you guys fuck this whole thing you should have just done a campus stem at the beginning like i said now god knows i think this would be good for you but anyways it was left to me to basically dose you guys yeah yeah so i picked for everyone what they should have and for the most part i did a good job yeah and that was another part i'm remembering now so okay first of all yes i went in thinking this is going to be a micro dose situation that maybe some colors are going to be a little brighter than normal.

1:50:39Yeah. So my expectations were not set correctly. And then it did. They didn't catch up to when we. But you you kept changing your opinion, too. Like, I want more like I feel nothing. Well, well, I was like, now that I've done this. Yeah. I better feel something. Now, I did not want to feel like my arms, my hands were grandma hands. I just wanted what I was promised, which was that the world was going to be a little brighter and sparklier or something. Which you had been told from other friends who had microdosed. Correct. So, so I was like, let's take a more, but I was, I was not in the headspace that I was going to like take a full dose.

1:51:20Yeah. So anyway, so, um, when you were dosing us, you were, you said to me i think you should take this and i said really and you didn't like that i said that i didn't because in my defense i had lost complete control you like you guys had taken the one pill then the second pill and and i would at this point i was like if you want me involved let me do this yeah yeah yeah i understand your point of view like i already said don't do that now we're here and now it's time for you to listen to me so i was i was losing patience totally i understand that And I was scared. Shocked, yes. I was scared.

1:51:55And I was just like, are you like, this seems like a lot. Yeah, yeah. And in my defense, I was right. Like that. That wasn't a micro dose. Exactly. It was like, this is what I'm doing now. But I was skeptical and you didn't like it. And then I felt like, okay, now he's mad at me about that. But you weren't the only person arguing with me, if you recall. Yeah, but you snapped at me. Of course I did. I know. Exactly. so I and you know why it's actually probably not that we disagreed about that it's the I want you to trust me and I'm pissed you don't trust me because I would never I know not take care of you although 20 minutes later I did not take care of you well that was part of it that was part of it so I said okay okay okay and then I I did it and then I was like are you serious You got mad at me when I pushed back.

1:52:56Then I said, okay, and now you're gone. Yeah, you had a big grievance. You had a legitimate grievance. Oh, boy. But it all worked out. It all worked out. It all worked out. It all worked out, and it was lovely. And I'm very grateful for you, and I'm very grateful you were there. And I would not have been able to turn around if you weren't there. Oh, well, it made me so happy that you guys had such a sweet night. Yeah. It was really funny, too, because of the, I'd say, the success of the evening. Yeah. And it's kind of dissipated through our friendship circle. A couple of different people told me like, I'm going to do it.

1:53:27I'm going to do it. I'm going to go with my girlfriend and we're going to do it. I forget where. And I was like, cool. And your girlfriend's done it? And she's like, no. And I'm like, no. I'm like, you can't go to a new, they're going to go to some place they've never been. Neither person have done it. I'm like, I'm telling you, you will convince yourself that you've got the one bad batch of mushrooms and you're going to die. That's what's going to happen if there's not someone there who's either done it a bunch or is sober like I am. Totally. To go, everything's chill. No one's ever been hurt.

1:53:56Let's start thinking about this. I agree. Yeah, I would not recommend two people on their own experiment. My friend Greg introduced me to it. I'll never forget. What a fucking day. I think I was about 18. I was out of high school, and I was just like living in Detroit and working for my mom. And I worked with this guy, Greg, who I fucking love so much. and he had this big jar of shrooms. He's like, yeah, if you ever want to do them. And he was a normal guy. He wasn't a druggie. Yeah. Like if he had been like a druggie type, I wouldn't have trusted him. But he's a pretty straight-laced dude who believed in psilocybin at a young age.

1:54:28Yeah. He came over and four of us did them at my mom's house. And then we wandered into Camp Dearborn, which I had been in a million times. I knew what it was supposed to look like. Yeah. And we wandered around the toboggan hills and I found a bulldozer that had the key in it. And I drove a bulldozer. Okay, I don't love that part. But it was such an incredible time. It really was. And there's nothing grimy about it. Like if you do coke, you get fucking gross. If you do ecstasy, you get pretty gross. If you do meth, you get gross. A lot of these drugs, they bring out the pleasure center of your brain.

1:55:03Yeah. And shrooms is not that at all. Shrooms, there's nothing grody about it. No. Also, for anyone who would want to sue me in the future because I told you to do it, I'm telling you not to do it. Don't ever do shrooms. Yeah, don't do it. I am not condoning anyone to do shrooms. You're not allowed to do it. I'm not encouraging anyone to, and I'm not liable. But my experience with shrooms was this, and yours was that. Yeah. Just be very clear. Yes. Yes. Some arm cherry gets looped up and rides a bicycle off a bridge. I know. I don't want anything to do with that. No, no, no. We're not. Advocating.

1:55:35Condoning. No, this is our experience that we're sharing. Yeah. we had a really funny moment where I kept pointing things out to Monica again, cause I've done them a hundred times and I know what's good. What things are going to look cool on it. What aren't. So I'm like, Oh, Monica, look at the wood here. Look at the grain in the wood. And I'm like, look at that house. You think there's a sitcom going on in there or a drama? And then you go, how do you know that? Are you on it? Are you making me think that? Or do I think that? And you also like, it was so funny. And then I thought you weren't real because I thought maybe you were just in my brain somehow.

1:56:07And you were out on your own walk. Yeah, I did. Because I was like, oh my God, you know everything I'm thinking. Which can't be. You must be in my brain, which means you're not real. That was another big takeaway was, which, you know, I think we know this in life, but it was so apparent how affected we are by other people and other people's energy. So when I say I bummed everyone out, I think that's for real. Like, I'm really glad you pulled me out quick because everyone probably would have started getting really sad really quick. Yeah. Because your energy is so infectious. And if you point something out and it looks weird like a grandma hand.

1:56:48Yeah. When I saw it first, I was like, and one of the other people. Participants. Yes. Was like, I know, I know, I know. Yeah. And then we both were kind of feeding off of like, oh, that got really scary real quick. Okay. Okay. Yeah. But then later when another participant was looking at hands, she was like, isn't it cool? Yeah. And then I was like, it is cool. To look down at your own hands that you've been staring at your whole lifetime and for them to be different is awesome. It is. But you can choose. You either can see it. Look, both things are true. It is scary to see something you know to be real and substantial in front of you not be that.

1:57:35And it's also cool. So whatever you say can have such a big impact on the people around you. And that's just like so true about life. Oh, yeah. Your energy and what you say. But again, it does go to that thing I was saying where it's kind of eroding these walls between us where it's like it is so transmissible. Yeah. Like love's more transmissible. Yeah. Fear's more transmissible. It's all more transmissible. But the thing is, I don't know that it's more. I think it's the same amount as what we're doing day to day. We're just not as aware of it. Our energy does that on a daily basis. I don't agree, though, because the participant you're talking about, in general life, that person could make an observation.

1:58:18You would go, well, yeah, of course she sees it that way because she's this. She's this thing. She's that thing. She's this thing. But I'm this thing, that thing, and this thing. So it's not the same for me. Like, oh, of course that guy thinks that. I always do this. Like anytime I have a disagreement with someone's perspective, I immediately try to figure out why their perspective is different. I don't assume that their perspective is correct. That's true. I think of the reasons why we have different one. But you can really share perspective in a way on shrooms that it's hard to share. I guess I mainly mean more energy wise.

1:58:50Like if people are happy, you can borrow that energy. But if someone is sad around you, that has an impact. Whether you can logically be like, that's separate from me. It is seeping in. Oh, yeah. Well, anyone who has a partner who has depression has experienced that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, again, social responsibility. You got to take care of yourself so that you can take care of people around you. Yeah. When are you going to do it again? Not in a rush to do it again It was wonderful but I definitely don't feel like I gotta do that next weekend Again that's the thing I'm talking about It's not like getting drunk or it's like that was fun I wanna get fucked up tonight It's a little exhausting Yeah Like the next couple days you're aware That you went through this thing For sure In a nice way though You're tapped into some emotion That's sweet And you can feel it And you're not anxious to get back in the fire because you're processing it and trying to understand it all.

1:59:57Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Drugs, don't do them. I love you. I love you.

2:00:15Thank you.