Walter Isaacson Returns (biographer & historian)

23:54You're right. You want to explain all the sides so people understand where the demons, but you don't have a lot of drives that are insane drives unless you have a few demons. I know. And maybe that's why I'm a better observer of people than somebody who's going to shoot rockets to Mars. Because, you know, I got some drives, but they're not insane. But they're not going to change the world the way Steve Jobs did, the way Elon Musk did, the way Einstein did. I guess Bill's comforting in that way that his parents were, by all accounts, spectacular. His father and mother were, that's what Source Code, this book he did about his childhood.

24:28And the Tyreo camp that they used to go to and the games that they played. Now, he was very competitive and ambitious. but his father, who just died maybe, what, five or six years ago, has got to have been one of the wisest, sweetest people. Yeah, a gentle giant, an enormous man with a big heart. And he did one of the great things for Bill Gates was he helped negotiate that original IBM contract that says, and you get to keep the source code. Yes, yes, yes. Incredible. And then the mother's incredibly admirable proportionality of pushing him to be social and then surrendering to who he was. Big in the United Way, understanding that it's not just about taking things.

25:09It's about giving back. I did do, years ago, a cover story in Time magazine on Bill, and it begins with the mother and the mother taking Bill to a psychologist because Bill is always resisting or always refusing to do things. And the psychologist saying to the mother, I think Mary, her name was, give it up. Just let him be who he is because if you struggle with him, he's going to win. And that's why I think Bill turned out a little bit differently. He has incredible drives. Early years of Microsoft. Oh, my God. I mean, he is, you know. Yeah, psychopathic. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Admittedly, he says so.

25:45But he has been somebody who has been then, it's about something larger, like taking you to India and explaining why. And all the people I've written about at a certain point realize it's not just about me and my success. It's about connecting my success to something larger than myself. Okay, so now having studied all these people, here's, I guess, my fear. And my conclusion is they don't come in the shape we'd like. And I think our current society has lost a little bit of tolerance for what comes with these once-in-a-generation types. We want them to also be perfect, and I think that's unrealistic.

26:23What do you think about the reality of what makes these people and what kind of tolerance we have to have societally? I think you have to have tolerances for geniuses, and that's when I was doing the Elon Musk being interviewed about him. you know, people who just really hated him and say, wait a minute, do you want a society without Elon Musk? Or George Packer wrote a great book on Richard Holbrook, who's not quite up there with Elon Musk, but this diplomat who was just such a pain in the ass. And yet, as Packer ends the book, as the way I end the Elon book, could you have had a kinder and gentler subject still being the one getting the date and the cord, shooting the rocket to Mars, whatever it may be.

26:59So I think we have to tolerate, and you know, people push back me, but tolerate sometimes the craziness of genius. That said, I think there was a period up until about four or five years ago where we had become quite intolerant of, say, Picasso. And I think that as we got into an age where in 140 characters you had to declare somebody a hero or a villain. And you couldn't say, wait a minute, with Picasso it's more complicated than that. But TSLA is more complicated than that. Michael Jackson. Exactly. And so we became a society in which either because of the algorithms of social media or the talk radio or cable news, you had to immediately declare somebody was either totally evil or totally great.

27:53Yeah, everything binary, quickly. And you couldn't sort of explain, well, it's a little bit more complicated. As you said, these are humans. Yes, exactly. Do you want to have a planet in which the people who are pushing us forward... Also have great bedside manner. Yeah. Steve Jobs wrote when he came back to Apple, having been sent into the wilderness in the 90s, he wrote this ad to declare what Apple was all about. And I remember late in his life, he recited to me and started crying. And here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the round pegs in the square hole, the ones who think different.

28:29And it goes on. And then it ends with because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do. So are you going to be tolerant of the misfits, the rebels, the crazy ones? Well, yes, but you also have to remember that you can decry the bad parts of them. I mean, Shakespeare teaches that. In our current age, everything's so binary. We don't understand that. Look at Shakespeare's great heroes. Even Henry V, by Argincourt, speech, whatever. He kills all the prisoners, the French prisoners. He does horrible things. Likewise, even the villains in Shakespeare, Othello, Iago, they all have backstories.

29:09Yes. And nobody says, hey, Shakespeare, you shouldn't try to explain away their flaws. I think we need to get back to understanding the complexity of human nature. Yeah. I agree. Or just pick that I don't want anything new or I don't want anything incredibly hard done. I will say I think that sort of cancel culture and everything else, pendulum has swung away from that recently and maybe too far. And look at whether it be Donald Trump or many other people in public eye. I don't mean to get political here. They are breaking all sorts of guardrails. And maybe we should be now saying, wait a minute, wait a minute, don't go there.

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31:30Now my question on the father thing Just to land that is You personally, I can't imagine you're attracted to these stories That have this driving force Of a father-son relationship And you yourself not have thoughts on yours My father was the smartest smartest person I've ever met, the nicest person I've ever met, the most loving person I ever met. Fuck you, I guess is what I want to say. My mother, too. One of the smartest people I ever knew and the most supportive. And I joke with Michael Lewis, who also has a great family, is that, well, maybe that's why we're the observers and they're the ones shooting the rockets to Mars.

32:10My father was an engineer. Mechanical. Electrical was his main thing, but he had an engineering firm that did electrical, mechanical, and structural. And so one of the things about it was he taught me you can learn everything, as I said. And this, I think, should be the tagline of our share. You can learn it, which is in our house, which is still our family home in New Orleans, on Napoleon Avenue, huge basement. And we had workshops, but it was also electronics. And I'm kind of old. We remember tubes, and you could test the tubes and change them in the radio and soldering irons and heath kits.

32:44And we'd spend so much time doing hardware engineering and stuff. So I learned a love of science and engineering from him. And I think I went astray because then I studied history and literature in college. If I had had to do it over again, I would have become an engineer like my dad. You wish you had? Yes, because engineers can appreciate the beauty of history and poetry. But sometimes the humanists I know, they get, oh, you know, I love Shakespeare. I love this part of history. But then you say something about a circuit and exactly what a resistor does or why a transistor makes. Oh, no, I can never do science.

33:25Well, yeah, you can. Maybe not at the same pace your colleagues in class did, which is, I think, what informs people whether they can or cannot do something. It's like, oh, did I pick it up at the same rate as the people around me? Oh, it's not for me. That's a really good point because when I went to college, I was going to do math and physics and science. And it was hard. And if you went to a Stephen Greenblatt teaching Shakespeare, whoever you were, you'd be welcome. If you went to a physics course, and I took a couple and I took a biochem course, and you weren't a scientist, you were made to feel you just don't get it.

33:57You'll never get it. So they were not as inviting as they should have been. Yeah. Well, do you think maybe then you felt like I'm not going to be as good as my dad at this, so I might as well pivot? No, no. I don't quite know what it was. But I do think that nowadays being able to fully understand the beauty of science and engineering is crucial to being part of the political and philosophical conversation. And what I've tried to do in my books, like James Watson, another person who's complex and has been canceled, but he writes a double helix. And it's a fun, beautiful tale, inspired Jennifer Doudna, but he smuggles in a lot of science.

34:39So to try to make Einstein's special relativity, here's this patent clerk who can't get a job at a university or anything, but he's trying to learn how to synchronize clocks. because people are having patent applications because the Swiss are pretty insistent that you can, clocks be synchronized. And he's saying, well, what if I wrote alongside the signal that was synchronizing the clocks? Would time be the same to me? So understanding through the life of a person trying to convey that science to me has a certain beauty to it. Yeah. Okay, I wanted to ask your opinion as a professor at Tulane whose current enrollment, I looked it up this morning, is 62 % female, 38 % boys.

35:22I didn't know that, but that's interesting. Is that something that you've observed in your time there? Are you worried about that? What are your thoughts on the changing kind of demographics of college students? That's a good question. I'd not noticed it in particular. One of the things that I have noticed is that when people came in five, six, seven years ago, their parents would say, I just want them to learn coding. I want my boy or girl to be a great software engineer so that they'll have a job. AI comes along, and ChatGPT can code better than 99 % of most college coding students. But in some ways, connecting human feelings and emotions to the technology, that's the skill.

36:10I've started with some of my students, including students who do AI and are computer science students, but also my history students. I'm pairing them. And we've created a company called Boswell and Company. And what it does is it believes that everybody's got a story worth telling. And it uses Google Gemini Notebook, but also Anthropic, to gather all the data. And my students interview people and their families, and we put it all together. and we produce a biography for them. The reason I say this is because the people who can connect the humanities to the technology will succeed. And people say AI will destroy jobs.

36:52No, AI is going to open up whole new fields. Maybe 500 people get a biography or memoir written each year. It should be 5 million. Everybody should be able to do it. So we will have whole new products. And our little company, which is doing it for people we know who ask us commissioners to do it, that will just show how this AI combined with the humanities will find new products and new jobs for people. Yeah, it's almost a tall order because that's, I guess, what everyone already recognizes about him. What makes Jobs so unique was that he seemingly had the emotionality of the interaction being a priority as much as how good the product itself functioned.

37:37It seemed like he was very smart at recognizing you have to emotionally connect to this device. And one reason was just who he was, a great genius. But when he went to college to read before dropping out, he didn't sit there studying computer software engineering. He studied calligraphy, dance, music, art. And he really got a grounding in the humanities. And a sense, just a two-word sense, that's so important. Beauty matters. Just what you said. You said aesthetics matters, but he made it simple. Yeah, same thing. Beauty matters. And we're talking about Bill. I mean, Bill made some great products, but they both made a MP3 music player approximately the same time.

38:21And Microsoft made the Zoom, which was really good in many ways, but Steve made the iPod, which was an object of desire. Yes. It was a declaration of your identity. Even those ads and the earbuds and everything. So understanding the emotional connection, the humanities connection, is what made the iPod beat out the Zoom. Okay, so you're not sitting at Tulane going, where are the boys and what's happening and we got a problem on our hands. I haven't thought about that now. I'm going to have to go back. Yeah, I generally don't desire more boys to be around either. We probably have a problem in our society, which is the K-12 education and everything else.

39:02it used to be a sense that the world was going to be a better place for each new generation. For example, if you're born when I was in the 1950s, you had an 80 % chance of having a better life than your parents. If you're born when my students were born, say, I hate to say it, but like the year 2000. Or even in the book, you say the 80s. In the book, I say it in the 80s, right, but also in the year 2000, you have less than a 50 % chance of doing better than your parents. And so this explains a whole alienation of a new generation, but it also explains, I think, the resentments in our politics and other things.

39:41So the greatest sentence ever written is your new book. And it is conveniently coming out a month or two before we enter our 250th year anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. Happy birthday. Yeah. Yeah. So that would be a very obvious reason to write this book, but I don't think that's the primary goal of the book. It was definitely a goal and a thought, which is you're about to have a birthday party, and I don't know about your family, my family's pretty well, but, you know, if I have a big extended birthday party, there are people I hardly can speak to on some of my cousins. Sure, sure.

40:15But you put it aside on your birthday and you say, we're family, we're common ground, here's what we share. We have had this happening in our society maybe for the past eight to 10 years, where it just gets more and more polarized so that anything that happens, like should I wear a mask and COVID, anything becomes so political and partisan that we polarize ourselves on it. Well, we're about to have a birthday party. Wouldn't it be nice if we could say, well, here's what we all agree on. Here's what the common ground is. And so I wanted to do something that says, what is our mission statement as a nation?

40:51And let's read it, understand it, and for a year at least get along a little bit better to say, well, yeah, we do hold these truths to be self-evident. Yeah. Yeah, so there's a lot. We're going to go through each one. It's so cleverly broken down. But I will say what strikes me immediately is I think we do suffer from not knowing history. Ask yourself, well, how did it come about? How did we learn to live in a group of 330 million people as one unit? And there's some stuff that predates our country. There's Hobbes and Locke. There's people that propose this notion of a social contract. And you're going to leave the wild where you have unlimited rights.

41:32You see something you don't like, kill it. Who cares? Take what you want. We're going to give up some liberty because we believe the net benefit is going to be much larger if we give up some of our liberty so that we can coexist peacefully. So maybe just even that notion is maybe a bit more foreign to people than I think would be helpful. Yeah, you've read the book, which is great. I love that because that is how we begin because we're doing a parsing of the sentence. We hold these truths to be self-evident. And you start with the word we. And what does that mean? Well, it's not we, the 62 people gathered in Philadelphia.

42:06It's the social contract that we've decided to have. And our founders, particularly Jefferson, Franklin, and to some extent, John Adams, they were reading the people of that time. And you mentioned John Locke, David Hume, the people saying, how did we come out of a state of nature in the prehistoric times where we're all fighting each other? And how did we agree on how to have a government? And that's what the social contract is. Rousseau writes a book. Hobbes writes the book on it. Locke writes it. And these founders who are doing this Declaration of Independence, they base it on that enlightenment period, meaning these philosophers like John Locke, who said, how is it we come together as a society?

42:55Yeah. I think people, a lot of people at least, have this notion that I will live in this society and I will give up nothing to do so. That it needs to be exactly how I think it should be. And anything short of that is unacceptable. It's like the original buy-in is not floating around. It's like, oh, no, no, no. I'll be giving things up to reap the rewards of all this. Yeah. I mean, it's like when I'm driving here and there's a red light. Okay, I agree. I generally stop it. It's inconvenient to you. That's part of the social contract. And if you're going to have a society, a contract isn't just I get everything.

43:28It's here's the deal. We all hold hands and make. So if you look at the Declaration of Independence and you look at the sentence that I call the greatest sentence, it's we hold these truths. And that's a contract that we've made. And if we all realize that, maybe just that understanding it's a social contract and then we have common ground, that helps reduce the temperature a little bit of some of our partisan, poisonous debates at the moment. Yes. So as a historian, lay out a little bit of the context in which they're going to write this document, because I think people might think of it as being more monolithic than it was.

44:06Like it was anything but a unified group that had inhabited the colonies. Yeah, there isn't even a total consensus in January of 1776 that we're going to break away from the crown. But at a certain point ingrained in us is this notion of individual liberty. That's what Locke brings us with the social contractors. We're all in a state of nature as autonomous individuals. And then we make sort of let's hold hands and create a society. So it's based on individual rights rather than the rights of the king or the divine rights of kings or the conqueror. That notion of individual rights is so important.

44:42First of all, I don't know that everyone would just know who wrote it. You know, the wonderful thing, especially those of us who've been editors in our time, is that this greatest sentence, we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal, is not one person. They went through four drafts and then a final version. And of course, Jefferson is the first author. He gets to write the first draft. Would you have a committee? The Continental Congress says, okay, we're about to declare independence. A decent respect for the opinions of mankind means we got to say why. And so they appoint a committee.

45:14It may be the last time Congress appointed a good committee, but it has Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams on it. All making notes, scratching things out. And so, in fact, can I grab the book? Yes, please, please, please. Right here, we do it as the opening thing. This is the first draft. I don't know where your cameras are. Oh, yeah, yeah. And as you can see. It's a mess. There is a total mess. But here it is. We hold these truths. And then you see Jefferson, he writes, to be sacred. And Benjamin Franklin was a printer. So he had a dark black pen that did backslashes the way a printer. And he writes in self-evident.

45:51And so part of the book is just explaining that sometimes innovation is a team sport. Sometimes creativity is a collective endeavor. And that's what this sentence is about. And the forces at play, you already have burbling. You have the South's entire economy dependent on cotton production and slavery. Right. And you have Jefferson as the lead author who's enslaving 400 people at the time. The wealthiest part of the country is the South that's dependent on slavery. You have already people in the North calling for an end of slavery in their economy. So that's already a very contentious issue. And so the way we word this is all incredibly important.

46:33And compromises are happening in all these sentences. And as Franklin said, you know, compromises may not make great heroes, but they do make great democracies. You got to compromise. And one of the problems, though, because it's not all great. Sometimes you make a compromise that becomes sort of an original stain on the nation. And they have to do that in even the Declaration. They're writing, all men are created equal. Now, I try to explain it. They call it a self-evident truth because we all come from the state of nature. But how can they write that when one of them, Jefferson, is a major slaveholder?

47:10He's had children with one of his very underage. Right, and the person who is in Philadelphia in that room when he has his mahogany desk and he has Franklin and Adams there, is Thomas Hemmings, the brother of his enslaved mistress, also a slave. They wrestle with this. The original draft in Virginia was that all men, and they're endowed with certain inalienable rights when they enter into a society, and that was supposed to exclude the slaves. Jefferson knew that just doesn't wash, And so you have the great contradiction of he just says all men are created equal, and yet even at his death he doesn't free his slaves.

47:51Or his own children. Well, he doesn't free Sally Hemings, but part of the agreement with his mistress Sally Hemings, who was enslaved, was that he would have freed their children, and he does. So it's all, once again, human and complex. But four score and seven years later, meaning when Lincoln is at the battleground of Gettysburg, when they're consecrating the cemetery there, he harks back and he says a nation founded on the proposition that all men are created equal. So you see the power of the sentence pushing us to progress. Yeah. Yeah. I just want to put one more bullet point on we, which is important.

48:31Prior to this, governments, as everyone knew, were pretty much ordained by either God or a royalty that had been anointed by God. So they were never by the people. So we is very, very powerful. That same word begins the greatest sentence ever written, and it begins our constitution. We the people. So you've got to understand that this isn't the divine right of kings or the power of conquerors. it's this notion of a society that says we will create common ground and that's why i wrote this because i want us to understand the struggle to create the common ground and the self-evident truths you explain how hume david hume who franklin was friends with and admired said there's two kinds of truths there's synthetic and those are based on facts the example you give is like Philadelphia is bigger than Boston.

49:23Well, we're going to have to go out and do some census work to find out the answer to that versus analytic truth, which is all bachelors are unmarried. We don't need to go survey bachelors to find out if they're unmarried. The premise of the statement is in itself self-evident. So that's the distinction. And then all men, obviously we're not including women. We're not including Native Americans. you point out in the book, at that moment, a fifth of all people in the colonies were slaves. Right. And so to start with the self-evident, Jefferson had written, we hold these truths to be sacred. And Franklin has been staying with David Hume in Scotland, the greatest philosopher of the time, as you said, somebody who wrote about contract theory, and had come up with this notion of self-evident truths, all bachelors are unmarried, versus truce you had to go around and look.

50:12Well, when you say are created equal, Franklin says that has to be a self-evident thing because if you actually go around and look, you'll say, wait a minute, I just talked to Magic Johnson. Walt is not equal to him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Somebody's not equal to Einstein. But what is self-evident is that we all had autonomy in the state of nature and we came together as a society. We all had this notion of coming together as a country, so politically we're created equal. But as you point out, they leave out a lot of people. And so the arc of American history is delivering on the aspirations of that sentence.

50:52And even Benjamin Franklin, to me, years ago I wrote a book about Benjamin Franklin. He's still a hero. He had two slaves when he was a young printer in Philadelphia. He just worked in his print shop, and then he realizes that's bad. They wander off. He doesn't try to keep them. but he just knows it's something he's done wrong. In his whole life, he keeps a ledger of the errata he had made and how he rectified it. Like he ran away when he was apprenticed. He breaks the indenture to his brother and runs away. He rectifies it years later by educating his brother. Anyway, he realizes the great sin was having once owned a couple of slaves.

51:29Yes. And so he becomes president of the Society for the Abolition of Slavery. He helps create schools for blacks and freed slaves in America. And his own personal arc, to me, is analogous to the arc of American history. Right. That eventually we have to say, it's all men will know. That's an expansive term. It should mean all humanity. That's what all men should mean. And likewise, if you're going to say created equal, you've got to make sure black or white or female, whatever it may be, we all have equal rights. I was shocked to read this in the book that Jefferson called slavery moral depravity and hideous blot.

52:14Yet is one of, in my opinion, as I read about all the forefathers, the most repugnant behavior in regards to his slavery. I mean, traveling Europe with a 14-year-old that you impregnate is to me about as fucking low as a kid. So it's interesting to acknowledge that he had this contradiction that was very much alive. And it goes back to what we were saying at the very beginning. Even the heroes have great flaws. Even the villains have backstories. And we shouldn't just say somebody's all or nothing. Wrestling with the complexity of Jefferson is so important. And, you know, we went through a period where either every monument had to be taken down.

52:53Yes, but we probably should understand the contradictions and the dark sides of some of these people. I mean, I tend to write about Franklin because he was very self-reflective. Who you want him to be. He follows the great arc of humanity. Right. But you can't totally dismiss Jefferson. And you should have Annette Gordon read. I don't know if she's been on this show. No, no. And she wrote The Hemings of Monticello. She's at Harvard, African-American historian. But she has this wonderfully complex view of Jefferson. I need that. I've been saying I need to read something pro-Jefferson. Well, Meacham has a somewhat nuanced thing, and obviously Annette Gordon-Reed's book is extraordinarily good.

53:37In this book, I'm trying to say, man, this is outrageous. Taking his enslaved mistress, even as he's written this declaration, I try to say, yes, but look at these people who together created this sentence. For all of their flaws, they gave us our mission. And now it's 250 years, our birthday of that mission, because we can all agree on that sentence. Let's reflect on it. So another major tension of the time, which is not foreign to us in 2025, is there was quite a bit of tension over how religious this text would be. That's the endowed by their creator, the next line. Right. And begins with Franklin crossing out sacred and putting in self-evident and we hold these truths.

54:22And then the sentence goes on, and you have it in the book there. You can look at the edits, and it says they're endowed with certain inalienable rights. And then you have what I think is John Adams' handwriting, because he's the most conventionally religious, and he puts endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. So even in the editing of one half of this greatest sentence ever written, You see them balancing the role of rationality and reason with the dictates of religion and basically the divine providence that we had as a nation. They're creating a balance. We've lost that today.

55:00Nowadays, you're using the Ten Commandments to divide us. I was at CNN when I was first studying this sentence because I was doing it for my Ben Franklin book. And I go in one morning and somebody says, oh, we have a great crossfire show. Judge Roy Moore has put the Ten Commandments in his courthouse in Alabama. A federal judge says they get down and they're going to have to send in the marshals. Everybody says, great, who are we going to get in favor of the Ten Commandments? Who are we going to get against? And I'm thinking, oh, good, we have a good crossfire tonight. And then when I went back, I was saying, the founders are using religion and rationality to balance us.

55:34And here we were in the press and there they were, the politicians, using the Ten Commandments to divide us. So that's another lesson we can learn from the founders is this balance of the role of religion, the role of rationality, and the role of tolerance. I'm embarrassed to say I had never even heard the term deists until I was reading this chapter. Many of them were deists. What are deists? Deists were very big in both Europe and the United States in the 1700s. Voltaire is, to some extent, Jefferson and Franklin are. And what deism is, which was basically the creed of most of the people who wrote the Declaration, in the North at least, is you believe in God.

56:20You believe in God as a great creator, but he set the universe in motion. There are laws. And he stepped out. Yeah. Or it stepped out. And Einstein believes in that too, which sets up beautiful laws and a wondrous cosmos for us to live in. But he doesn't go around intervening. Picking World Series. outcomes? Yeah, that the saints who were here yesterday to play the ram, I could pray as hard as I want that the saints were going to beat the ram, but there's no God who says, all right, I owe Walter one, you know, let's have the saints beat the ram. He doesn't intervene. That's the deist creed. That seems to have died out entirely.

56:58I think a lot of people, Francis Collins, a great scientists who believes in God as a Christian. There are many people, I think, who believe in a benevolent creator, endowed by the creator, as our sentence writers put it, believe that the world and the universe has a miraculous set of laws, but there aren't miracles in which suddenly the laws of the universe are broken because you prayed hard enough. Yeah. It was a creator, or not a super. It's not managing the apartment. Exactly. And it was also called providence. In other words, the good Lord sets up a creation and we owe it to divine providence to understand the beauty of that creation.

57:45But it's not individual providence where the good Lord is intervening every day and deciding, I'm going to help you out today. And they were even specifically saying, I'm not in that Jesus was the son of that thing. I think they're all very rational. When I say, oh, let's pick Jefferson and Franklin, because those are the two who talk about it. It's in the book a bit. Franklin is the best, really, because he's a very rational person. And he believes in the creator, and he believes that worshiping is good for a society. But Ezra Stiles, who was president of Yale, right when Franklin is dying, says, okay, but do you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ?

58:27And Franklin writes back and he says, you know, I've sort of looked at that my whole life and I've never decided to proselytize, to preach on it because I'm just not sure and it's not something I know. He said, and I've quit worrying about it because I'm going to learn soon enough the real answer. No, he was dying soon. So if you look even at John Adams, he's that way, which is they believe in the creator, but the notion of the divinity of Christ is something that some take on faith, but others feel they're not sure about it. Jefferson, in particular, takes the Bible, and he creates what's called the Jefferson Bible, where he keeps in all of the great, wise things of Jesus, all of the principles and the moral principles of Jesus, but he actually takes a razor and cuts out the miracle parts because Jefferson is such a deist and such a rationalist.

59:22He thinks that the Bible would be better if we just listen to the moral preachings, but didn't worry about how do you make, you know, loaves and fishes. He sent that book to his nephew or something? The Jefferson Bible, you can see it in Monticello. It actually exists and it has the razor cutouts. It's once again, something I don't proselytize on. I think everybody should have their own set of beliefs, but I think the key there is to be tolerant. And this is what Franklin was saying. Different people are going to understand the divinity of Jesus differently. I think they all felt that we should have a respect for a great creator, a divine power that created us, but otherwise we should be tolerant.

1:00:04Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:00:39Yeah, so it's interesting. is, okay, how much health care should be considered into something that's a Medicaid and Medicare? We want immigrants, but how many? We're arguing over what should be in the commons, how much health care should be in the commons, how much police protection, whatever it may be. Those are pretty simple enough arguments compared to the ones our founders had to deal with, and they successfully craft the sentence and then craft a declaration and then craft what may be the most astonishingly successful Constitution imaginable. And as Franklin says at the end, when they finish that sentence, they're voting on the Declaration, and then he does it with the Constitution as well.

1:01:22He said, I never thought this was perfect, but it's as good as humans can do. And so with all of his flaws, let's be humble and hold hands and say, we have endowed this. That's another thing I think we've lost the appetite for a little bit. Some places are just a good place to start. We're not there, but we need to start somewhere so the improvements can come. Also, I feel like the Benjamin Franklin thing that you said, where he was very much righting his wrongs over time. Nowadays, I feel like what's so upsetting is we would look, not we, but a lot of people would look at it and be like, oh, he was wishy-washy.

1:02:00Or, oh, he's switch flip-flopped. He flip-flopped. It's so crazy. He flip-flopped on to what it's like. But that's an unforgivable sin to flip-flopper. Exactly. Again, on both sides, we do this in the political spectrum. We're like, oh, now they changed their mind. You can't trust them. It's like that's called growth. We should be able to let people change their mind. When I learn more, I change my mind. What do you do? And that's an old line that he used. But we're stuck right now. We don't tolerate compromises or people who grow. That's what this book is about, too, is we started a nation with a certain aspiration, but we had to grow and we had to get there.

1:02:36That's the core of it. Yeah. Okay, and then we get into what I think is the most moving part of the book and the thing that I appreciated reading most. And that is just about common ground in the pursuit of the American dream. So let's kind of define these things. People are very familiar with the term common ground, but it had a literal beginning, common ground. Right. Common ground back in feudal times was the landowners and the great dukes and the earls. They had their land, but there was a certain parts of the land that were put in commons. They were called the commons. Everybody could graze their herds or grow things there.

1:03:16And it was for what we then called commoners. That's how we get the name commoners. They were the ones who didn't own land, but they could graze on the commons. And it comes even from John Locke. John Locke is a strong believer of private property. He believes that if you mix your labor with things you find in nature, you have a right to make that your private property. He is the philosopher who gives us the notion of free markets and private property. He has a caveat that says as long as there is enough and as good left in the commons. So even in Boston, Philadelphia, and in Cambridge in colonial times, there was Boston Common, Cambridge Common.

1:03:59We think, okay, Boston Common is beautiful and it has a place where the swans go. No, but that was a commons where people could do it. So for me, that's the metaphor that is at the core of this sentence. What is this sentence talking about? It's saying common ground. And so what they did back then was they put not just land in the common for people to graze on, but they said, we're going to put certain things in the common. Ben Franklin did. He said, okay, we're going to put a library services in the common. And this is Ben Franklin and his little group in Philadelphia. You need to do two seconds on what a paradigm breaker that was having libraries.

1:04:40I don't think people understand the importance of just having access to books, how much that opened up your opportunity. It is a great symbolic nature of the commons in American Dream that everybody has access to information. And Franklin said when he created the Free Library of Philadelphia, which is the first library where everybody could come and use it, He said, we're going to create a society where anybody, whatever their birth, whatever their background, will be able to learn as much as the wealthiest people. And that allows everybody the opportunity. That's what America is about, having the opportunity.

1:05:19Yeah, because books were elite. You had to be rich to own books. And Franklin goes around as a young tradesman in Philadelphia, and he goes to all the wealthy people, and he says, put your books in this library. which ones can we borrow for it so we can create a community? So that was a symbolic commons. Likewise, he says, let's do a fire corps, volunteer fire department. Even when he died, he still had his bucket by his bed because you had to keep your bucket if you're a volunteer fireman by your bed. So in his deathbed, he still has it. But when he's like 18 years old, his friends are creating a volunteer fire department.

1:05:55And they say, well, should it be for people who pay for it or should it be in the commons? They said, wait, it's not a good idea if we let some houses burn and some don't. That's not going to help the city. So we put that in the commons. We put the Night Watchman Corps and police in the commons. And he even does a hospital that's a public-private partnership done by people who donate, but there's a matching from the legislature and there's a lottery to pay for it because he wants to put some health care in the commons. That's still what we're trying to do is argue how much health care should be in the commons.

1:06:28Should there be free charity hospitals? Should there be Medicare, Medicaid? And if we realize that our debates are simply about how much gets put in the commons, then we can disagree. But at least we know it's not some existential fight. It's just a question of balance. Yeah. I needed to read this part and be reminded of this part because what I hear mostly in our public discourse is just this hatred for billionaires. It's like a very common hatred. And we're seeing some cities move to maybe more socialist measures. So I think I'm kind of living in the defense of the free market a lot in my head.

1:07:06And I am someone who thinks, to Locke's point, if I make a pottery out of the clay I found in the ground, it's not your bowl. You know, I do believe that. Absolutely. And you've got Locke exactly right. The principle I was choosing not to look at is the American dream. The core of it is I can transcend my class. I mean, that's really when we get into why did we form this country? We were rebelling in many ways against a very hierarchical class structure that was hereditary. I'm born into nobility. I'm born into aristocracy. And so we would all agree that's not how it should be. The fundamental reason we didn't want anything to do with them is we wanted a merit-based system that would allow you to transcend.

1:07:49And when I'm reminded of that, I do think, yes, the common goods are what ensure that. and they're hugely important because if we are not a place that you can transcend your social class, then we are in a nobility. We might as well be in a monarchy. And we have seen, and I acknowledge, this increased elitism is now functioning virtually the same as inherited class when we look at the real statistics. So I just think this is a very important part of the book, and I was really, really grateful to be reminded what its purpose is. Yeah. No matter how much you believe in private property or anything else, there's a moral purpose of saying there'll be certain things that every kid has the opportunity to have.

1:08:34Every kid has access to every person. And that could be K through 12 education. We put that generally in the commons. It's under attack currently. Yeah. Police protection we put in the commons. To some extent, healthcare. Why do we do it? Not just because we're being sweet and generous, but because we want to be a land of opportunity, which means whatever class you're born into, we're not like the old aristocracy we were fighting against when we created this country, in which if you were born into the aristocracy with land, you'd always stay there. And if you were born a commoner, it was hard to rise.

1:09:08We want to be a land of opportunity. And it got called the American dream. That's the goal and the fundamental moral purpose of saying, what do we put in the commons and what do we not? Well, we can debate that. But without having some things in the commons, it's not socialist to say, hey, police protection and defense should be in the commons. It should protect everybody. And likewise, debating how much health care should be in the commons, how much higher education. Should community colleges or, for that matter, state colleges and universities be free? Is that something we want to put in the commons?

1:09:43Well, we can debate that. Like, no, maybe we shouldn't. And we can incrementally try things. And we can balance things. And we can say, yes, but we're going into a new, you know, when we went from the agricultural age to the industrial age 100 years ago, we put into the commons a lot more. Like high school education should be in the commons. Everybody should get it for free. That started with the industrial revolution. Yeah. When we were trying to go into an industrial age, we realized, well, now we're going into a new age of AI and other things. Well, perhaps more is required to put in the commons, but that doesn't make you a socialist to say we should put in order to have a land of opportunity, have more access to education.

1:10:27And you don't have to make it all or nothing. We could take some of these hugely poisonous fights we're having and say, well, it's just a question of calibrating how much health care should be in the commons, how much public education should be in the commons. Let's not make these existential fights. It's let's look at it through the lens of what makes us a land of opportunity, what makes sure that we all share some common ground. Because the moral purpose of the commons is not just to make things a land of opportunity, but it was also to give everybody a stake in society. A buy-in. Yeah, a buy-in.

1:11:04Like, look, look, you may not have been born wealthier, but you all have a stake in keeping this society. and nowadays some of the resentment comes because people enclose things. They make special VIP entrances. Well, hold on on that. I have a whole section on the skyboxification. I think this is fascinating. But I just want to say, yes, if we don't have that principle that anyone here can become anything they want, we don't really have a unique take on anything. I think that is the quintessential ingredient. And as it erodes, it's good to remember, No, that's actually the thing we should all feel pride on.

1:11:40That's why for the past 50 years we've been the engine of innovation for this world since World War II. And yes, that notion of an American dream where everybody can rise, that was Ben Franklin's core principle when he's helping write this sentence. If you lose that, you lose something moral, which is every kid, every person deserves an opportunity to do the best again. But you also, from a practical sense, you erode the buy-in people have for our system. They become resentful and they end up voting on the extremes. These populist movements come up. Populist movements come up or left-wing movements.

1:12:21And so if you erode the sense that we all have a stake in society. Then communism does start looking attractive. Correct. Or socialism or authoritarianism. And we're seeing that not just the United States, even in Japan, but all of Europe. And so even if you don't believe in the moral reasons for having a commons, which is that everybody should get an education, be able to do well, you say, OK, but just for practical purposes, if we don't want to undermine democracy, we ought to make sure everybody buys into it. Absolutely. OK, so now let's talk about the skyboxification. Yeah, this is a bummer to read, and it's so true and so evident.

1:13:00And I am a beneficiary. I'm going to do this afternoon when I go to LAX. First, let's give Michael Sandel, the greatest public philosopher of our time, credit. He came up with the notion of skyboxification. It's easy enough to understand. When I was young and went to Fenway Park, including with Michael Sandel, we'd all go in the same entrance. We'd eat the same soggy hot dogs. We'd sit in the stands together. Now, even when you go and when I go, we probably get to the VIP entrance maybe, or you do at least. Yeah. And maybe we're invited to the skyboxes and we don't all sit in the same stand. That's a metaphor for so many things in our society.

1:13:41And I got to add, it's a dramatic difference to the degree that now that I've been invited, I mean, I grew up looking at the outside of the red rope, but now on the inside of it, I can tell you, it's so dramatically different that there are things that I wouldn't even do otherwise now. It's so spoiling and the gap is so big in the experience So people are right to be pissed. And the resentments, I guess, right to be pissed is another way of saying resentment, which is the way I put it. But sometimes it happens to me. You go to the airport and you're in the priority lane or the clear lane, and people waiting in line are giving you that look, like there's a slight resentment.

1:14:16These build up resentments. Probably when I go this afternoon to LA, I'm going to not say, well, let me give up the TSA pre-line or whatever it's called. But it happens in so many different ways. It used to be my father and grandfather growing up exactly where I did in New Orleans all went to the public high school right in the neighborhood. Now, even K-12 education, there's sort of a velvet rope that certain people get. Yeah, private is huge. Healthcare, you name it. And it goes back like many things. And I mention it in the book. This book is not a heavy philosophy book. But there's a paragraph that mentions it from John Locke, which is in that period, they had what was called the enclosure laws.

1:14:59And what they did was they had the commons. Everybody got to graze their sheep on the commons. But they decided that certain people could have the right to enclose part of the commons and make it private. That has a really good impact in many ways. You get a lot more productivity if it's private. The yields go up. You have a huge agricultural revolution. However, if you enclose off, if you fence off, if you velvet rope off too many things, it has a bad impact. And so whether it's our understanding of our founders' personalities or of Elon's personality or of these things, we have to realize it's not all or nothing.

1:15:38There's a certain balance that, yes, we want people to be able to enclose things. We want maybe even to have velvet ropes. But if you do it too much, you get a resentful society and a society in which people cannot rise to their own talents. Maybe interesting or not, but Jefferson weirdly favored a meritocratic elite. He doesn't come off perfectly in this book. Both Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson start what become universities. University of Virginia and the Academy for the Education of Youth in Pennsylvania that becomes Penn. University of Pennsylvania. And they have different mission statements.

1:16:13What Jefferson says is the point is we are going to take the best 40, 50 kids and we are going to groom a new meritocratic elite. And those people are going to become the leaders of society. Franklin, on the other hand, says, no, the university's purpose is to have everybody, whatever their innate talents be, to have a chance to do the best they can with whatever assets they have. And we want everybody to move up. Well, creating a meritocratic elite, I don't blame Jefferson for all of this, But I blame my generation, which is at a certain point, maybe 50 years ago, we created a meritocracy of credentialed people who went to the right schools.

1:17:09And whose children, most importantly. In practice, it became hereditary. How is it meritocratic? Yeah, we call it meritocratic because that was what James Cohn and Bryant did when they invent the SAT. And they say that's merit. People say, well, I believe in merit. What do you mean merit? Exactly. Is the ability to ace an SAT score? Pretty useful. But is that true merit? Franklin answers by saying, no, true merit is the ability to better serve your community and your country. That's what we call true merit. And so he was fighting Jefferson on that. So we created, and I mean by we, sort of a baby boom generation after World War II, a credentialed elite who went to the best colleges and got their kids in the, quote, best colleges.

1:17:54SAT, tutors. And they became the ones who thought that they could understand foreign policy better. And once again, Michael Sandel has a good book. You got to get him on the show called The Tyranny of the Meritocracy because the meritocracy got a lot wrong after a while, including forever wars and things they got us into. But anyway, there is that notion that we created a new elite, and that wasn't the best thing to happen. And it really starts happening in the 50s, 60s, 70s. And that elite, it happened in the Clinton years. Whatever you may think of the Clinton years, it was meritocratic. And people, including Hillary Clinton, would say things like, well, you should just go to college, and that way you won't be left behind in society.

1:18:39What made the 65 % of the people who don't finish college look down upon and that elite view of the credential should run our society was a bad thing. Yes. I think that's a big issue we've not yet figured out how to tackle. In general, I see that as an enormous problem the left has that they are seemingly unwilling to confront. Well, it's not necessarily the left. it's sort of the neoliberal liberalism of the 70s, 80s, and 90s, which is you'll be fine if you just go to college, and if you don't, it's your fault. Yes. And then some assumption that you have the same odds of attending college as everyone else.

1:19:23And frankly, that if you went to an Ivy League college, somehow you had more merit. Yeah. And we have to try to understand, and this is what this book is about too, there has been a backlash of populism on the left and the right and globally. Certain people in the old neoliberal consensus who looked down on the populist backlash. And I'm saying, no, no, no. There's really a lot of reasons people, to use your technical term, are pissed. Yeah. And the reason they're pissed is we started losing the common ground. We started losing the American dream. We started losing the notion that we should be a land of opportunity.

1:20:01And that's why if we're going to heal this great divide, I just hope for our 250th. You don't have to read my book. Just read the sentence. And everybody should understand the sentence and say, okay, I get it. Now let's live by it. Yeah, talk about going forward. That's the last thing I want to talk about. Franklin said, yes, we must indeed all hang together or most assuredly we shall all hang separately. How can we all hang together? I think Franklin is the great guidepost because he is a great entrepreneur. He believes, like you do in many, and yes, you can succeed with private property. You can make things.

1:20:37He gets to Philadelphia because he's running away from being an indentured to his brother. He's got three coins in his pocket. It's the most wonderful scene. He tips the boatman, buys the three puffy rolls, gives one away. He says, when you're really poor, you're always more generous because you want people not to think you're poor. So he's with his three coins being generous. and he comes into Philadelphia and it becomes a land of opportunity for him, Market Street. And he becomes from that penniless, oh no, not penniless, three pennies, kid to in some ways one of the wealthiest people in America.

1:21:12Hard to count landowning and slave ownership and all that. But for somebody who creates printing shops and franchises them up and down the coast and becomes a publisher, he becomes enormously successful. And so that's the point of Franklin. But then he creates a group in his community and says, okay, how are we going to serve the common ground? And that's when he forms with his leather apron club, he calls it, because it's people who go to their shops each morning, put on their leather apron. It's not the elite. It's shopkeepers. He says, we, the middling people, shopkeepers, artisans, those of us who go to work every day, we not only have the opportunity to succeed.

1:21:54We have to figure out what should we put in common so we become a land of opportunity. So I say, if we're going forward, try to be like Franklin, and I talk about it at the end of the book, which is he starts a street sweeping corps, a police corps, a volunteer fire department, a hospital, and of course, the library, an insurance fund for widows and orphans where everybody chips in, almost like you'd have Social Security today. He said, that's good for everybody if we put these in the commons. But he also has a revolving loan fund for entrepreneurs who want to start businesses. That's still today.

1:22:28In Philadelphia and Boston, those revolving loan funds that he started are still helping people in East Philadelphia start little businesses. He is a believer in capitalism, believer in enterprise, but also in making sure everybody has an opportunity. And then he does many other things, not just these loan funds. But during his lifetime, he donates to the building fund of each and every church built in Philadelphia. And then at one point, they're building a new hall, which is still next to Independence Hall, still called the new hall. He writes a fundraising document and says, even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send somebody here to preach Mohammedism to us, we should offer a pulpit and we should listen for we might learn something.

1:23:13And then on his deathbed, he's the largest individual contributor to the congregation Mikva Israel, the first synagogue built in Philadelphia. So when he dies, instead of his minister accompanying his casket to the grave, all 35 ministers, preachers, and priests link arms with the rabbi of the Jews in Philadelphia and march with them to the grave. Did you say 22 ,000? Is that the number in the book? That's the number of people who were at the funeral procession. And then it's led by the clergy of all. Yeah, they're witnessing this. And that's the type of nation they were trying to create 250 years ago.

1:23:51That's what they were fighting for 250 years ago. And that's what we're still fighting for today. And the sentence can still guide us. I know so many people have hard-ons for the founding fathers. You know, these young dudes who I don't know if they've read any of the stuff. Right. But like I want them to know this. If you want to idolize these guys, please idolize the right stuff about these guys. Yeah, that's incredible. And you have to realize when people read my biographies, they might say, oh, I'm just like Elon. You know, when people do something that sucks, I say, wait a minute. Have you ever sent a rocket into orbit?

1:24:24You're not. You have 5 ,000 satellites. My books are not how-to manuals. Yeah. They are real people. So learn from the good, learn from the bad, learn the cautionary parts. But in this case, the greatest sentence ever written, there were deep flaws when they said all men are created equal. But they did set us on the right mission. Yeah, absolutely. You're right. The greatest sentence ever written. I very much encourage you. It's very short. I was going to say, if you have a short attention, this is the Isaacson book for you to take on. Walter, it's so great to have you in person. Such a difference.

1:25:00I really, really enjoy getting to sit down with you face to face. And I love this. I'm glad you did this. This is really important. And I needed to hear several parts. I think we all should. You say, how can we do going forward? The two of you have a great platform to do it, but everybody listening has a great platform. Every day, wake up and say, at least for our 250th birthday, I'm going to try to think, what can I do that helps bring us together and unite us versus being part of the things that polarizes? We're on the same mission. What a delight. I can't wait to have you back when you write your next book.

1:25:31Can't wait to be back. All right. We hope you enjoyed this episode Unfortunately they made some mistakes Oh, should we tell everyone Our incredible discovery last night Flying back from Nashville Yeah As we were checking into our flight Yeah That if Delta grows up and starts a company Yeah It's like Delta Company Yeah But then she abbreviates it to Delta Co Of course Delta Co is Del Taco Yeah Oh, I can't wait for her to start. I wonder if Del Taco will come after her for infringement. And she'll go, I've had this name. This is my name. This has been my name my whole life. I countersue. They can't come after her because it's Delta Co.

1:26:14It's just pronounced Del Taco. Del Taco. Yeah. I mean, this is great. She has to start one now. She has no other option. I actually should look into incorporating her immediately. You really should. Sometimes you just get a little blessing lands in your lap. And that's what it felt like last night. I agree. Do you want to talk about the fact that I'm platinum? That was embarrassing. That was pretty embarrassing. So, yes, we flew back last night because we had a really fun interview that we did in Nashville. And then we came back home. You, me, and the kids, Kristen, had come home earlier. Yeah.

1:26:53And we're in line ready to, you know, check our bags. And somehow we got on the subject. Oh, I think Lincoln asked, are you platinum? she said, what are you or something? Like, what rank are you? Yeah, which why on earth would she have brought that up? I don't even know if she knows about the frequent flyer rungs on the ladder. Well, now she does. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they just overheard something. They asked me and I said, well, I'm platinum. But it was a sim because I had written down already that I wanted to talk to you about this because when I was flying out on my way to Nashville, there was a man in front of me, a young man, young fit man.

1:27:36Uh-huh. Who. You left out the fit part. I did. But I'm adding. I did. How young? 18? No, no, no. Like my age. Oh, Jesus. Okay, so middle-aged? How dare you? No, because he was young to have, when the lady checked him in, say, thank you for being a Diamond member or whatever. Yeah, what are they even saying? I forget. Diamond Club? Yeah, and I overheard it, and I was like, Diamond, whoa. But I'm platinum, like, that's the highest. So, like, maybe Diamond's right below it, but I don't remember them ever saying Diamond to me. A lot was going on there by it. Yeah, yeah. So then, you know, I checked in.

1:28:21Thank you for being a platinum flyer member, whatever. And then I went and had to look it up. Diamonds that above platinum. Do you remember how many miles you have to fly to earn that status? Like over 50. 50 million. Yeah. Rob, do you want to look? Yeah. Rob, do you know how to look? Lifetime is 3 million actual miles. Lifetime, okay. You need to spend$28 ,000 in medallion qualification dollars each year. MQD. I mean, what are we talking about? MQD. Not just miles flown. It's like 11 per dollar. Okay. I know nothing. Well, I looked it up and I was like, you know what? This guy. And then it got me so curious.

1:29:06I was like, who's this guy? Like, he flies so much and he's so young. Yeah. And he's so fit. Yeah. But also, so the youth was interesting because it's like, oh, he flies a lot. It's not like he's like 80, then Diamond might make sense. Right. You know, it's like accumulation. Yeah, this kid was born in an airplane. Yeah. So this was very curious. Do you know I have a friend who, and maybe I've already told you this story, but he had, it must have been Diamond status or something, right? Elusive. And when you have that one, you get the free upgrade like every time. Right. You can buy a coach ticket if you're Diamond.

1:29:47You will get upgraded to first class. Almost all the time. He had this crazy status and he liked to travel. And he wasn't rich. Yeah. And his weird thing was, and I remember one time it was like the end of the year was approaching. And he needed another 15 ,000 miles. And he went online and he found, like, just started searching for, like, the longest trip possible for the cheapest. Uh-huh. I want to say on like December 30th, he flew to Malaysia and then just fucking flew back. That's where it's getting out of hand. So that he could keep his diamond status. Oh, but see, I get it. I get you want it.

1:30:25It's very elusive. You don't want to lose it. It's the lost bias or whatever they call it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You have a little bit of glitter, I see. You know, I put on that birthday hat at Brick Tops. Yeah. And I still have glitter in all these places. Yeah, that thing got everywhere somehow. I have washed my face, rest assured. I don't know if it's embedded or maybe I have consumed some and they're now getting expressed out of the pores. I think that's fun. Maybe all year there's just going to be glitter popping out. So back to line, we discover your platinum and we discover I'm gold. Well, I tell you, oh, that's weird.

1:31:07I just got an email and I'm terrible at logging, putting my number in when I fly. And I got a whole reason why, you know, it's so boring, but it's like every time I've ever tried to use those miles, it's a fucking joke. Every time it's a blackout, every, it ends up when I've used it, it ends up being like 120 ,000 miles to get a coach seat or something. And I'm like, this thing's a fucking racket. I haven't had that. Now, a lot of people have great luck with it. And I, and I concede to that. All to say, I go up to the counter first with the girls to check in. And the woman behind the counter at some point says, like, thank you for your gold status.

1:31:40And then you start laughing immediately kind of behind. And then I, like, look at you. And then obviously she clocks this whole thing somehow. And so then I step away. I've checked in the bags. And now you step up. And we're, like, whatever, eight feet away from you. And when she checks you, she's like, oh, my. We are so delighted to have your platinum status. Did she like scream platinum status? It was really funny. She hit platinum status like three times. She was a party. She was. She was really fun. And it was very funny. And then. The flight? Yeah. Me holding in the farts and the pee. Oh, well, yeah.

1:32:18You had a lot of farts and pee that you kept in. The gal next to me was asleep. Yeah. And boy, she looked like she was really peacefully sleeping. I could not bring myself to wake her up. Yeah. To get out. Yeah. And a couple things happened. One, I had to pee really bad. yeah two i had a fart so bad and i was really surprised you didn't do it i couldn't do it because i was like if this a woman wakes up because she smells something i just i i couldn't do it and i had a bad hunch it was gonna be aromatic right so i held it and it was so uncomfortable and then additionally mid-flight delta comes up to my seat and she goes will you get my bag down daddy and i I go, I can't because she's sleeping.

1:33:00I can't step over her, blah, blah, blah. And she looked like kind of frustrated to the point where I felt really bad. Yeah. So she left. She went back to her seat. I was thinking, I was like, God, if you're a little person and you just can't reach your bag, how powerless that is. But you have a daddy. And so you ask him and he says, no. I was starting feeling really kind of quite bad about it to the degree that when we landed, I said to her, hey, if I were you and I were little and I couldn't reach my bag and I would be very frustrated. And I'm really, really sorry, but I just really didn't want to make.

1:33:30And then she hit us with she had had an enormous calamity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She had poured an orange juice all over her shirt, all over her pants, through her underwear. She was a poor girl. When she wanted her luggage, she was soaking wet with apple juice and sticky. And then the best part is she was explaining to us how she dealt with it, which, again, I'm kind of glad I didn't get her bag because she just had to deal with it. Yeah, true. And I think she told us she was pulling her pants down. Yeah, but no one could see. But no one could see. So they could air out. I just imagine like walking by one of the rows and there's just this little kid with her pants down.

1:34:06Yeah. Just watching their iPad with her pants down. Watching 10 things I hate about you. Yeah. But okay. So there was a guy next to me on the flight. And. Oh, I peeped him. Oh, you did. Yeah. I mean, I saw that there was. You were sitting next to this guy. Yeah, sitting next to this man. And in the middle of the flight. Sorry. Okay. I did receive a text message at one point before we took off. And I looked and it was a text message from my friend Monica who was several rows behind me. And she just said, I heard you cough.

1:34:39I am the worst, man. I'm just, I am the worst. It's distinct, your cough. But I just know your cough. No one else, everyone just hears people coughing. I just really can't figure out if it's a tick or I have a condition. Because I have a lot of stuff. It's not like I'm just dry coughing. God, this is disgusting. I'm so happy you're saying this out loud. Yeah. Because I didn't feel like I could ever say this to you. I think you've already said this to me. I have? Yeah, about the nose blowing. I just think you have some tits. I do. Yeah. I have tits. We all have things. But like I think you have – I notice it in editing.

1:35:21That's when I really notice it where I'm like – He's not, it's like, it's a tick. You're coughing and like clearing and stuff. And like nose blowing and stuff. Because, no, it's like anthropologically interesting. It's not annoying. It's fine. But is it chicken or the egg? I think I have like some issues. I had asthma. Yeah, I don't think it's like out of nowhere. Right. It's entirely psychosomatic. It's not. But it's 50-50. It's 80-20. It might be 80-20. I mean, in here, sometimes I feel like it happens. Oh, you're really scared to say this. I can tell the crook of your smile. If you're like a little, if you get a little like agitated or something, I think like something happens.

1:36:10Oh, even you saying that, I was like. Like, I know that face. I just felt like I was like, oh. Yeah, it's really funny. We all, we have so many idiots. I just want to thank everyone in my life. Like, clearly everyone in my life is very tolerant of the amount of noises I'm making. It's fine. Who cares? Anyway, so there was a guy next to me. Yeah. And he was young. Yeah. What did you say, fit? Yeah. Yeah. No, he was like, he seemed a little younger than me. Oh, he did, yeah. So he was prime. And he was reading his book and stuff. It seemed like he was solo, right? Yeah. Some point in the flight, like look over and he's talking to the, a girl, a young woman, um, next to him on, but I was across the aisle.

1:37:00Yes, I noticed that too. Okay, yeah. He was reading his book and he was just like being, I, he wasn't talking to her until all of a sudden he was into me in the middle of the flight. Like I look over and he's just like talking, you know, and, and I kind of am looking and I'm trying to listen a little bit, but I have headphones in here. So I couldn't really hear, but it seemed to me, they were meeting. Oh, meet cute. And I was, I was like, Oh my God, I'm, I'm, meet cute is happening. And then this is funny. Yeah. Then I was like, you got jealous. Yeah. I did. I was like, what the fuck? I'm sitting right here.

1:37:44Hey, hello. I'm sitting right here. Diamond status. Platinum. What are you? Platinum. I'm sitting right here. I'm pleather status. And he hates me so much. I'm so gross. He has to go across the aisle. He'd rather cross the aisle. Exactly. No, but hold on. Now, I got to. Yeah. You can't build this argument because I was already witnessing it before you ever sat down. I know, but listen. Yeah. Okay. The trolley had left the station. So they're falling in. Like, you know, they're flurring. So they're chit-chatting And I was like Oh my god A meet-cute And I was like Oh man I feel conflicted about this Because I love meet-cute So I'm like I'm happy this is happening for them But also like Hello I'm right here Like this is so rude It's so rude So And then Well it could have turned into A challenger situation Oh shit I know And I looked for the movie On the plane It wasn't playing That's your safest So Then I would have Really got his attention Yeah Yeah and when you nudged him and you pointed during the three-way and then you nudged him and said nudge her hey you see what's happening here um does this interest you this concept of three people getting together intimately okay so then at one point and i am on observer and i am kind of closing my eyes a lot in the flight so this is part of it i guess so then at one point i look over and i'm like oh he has a wine.

1:39:14He hadn't had a wine or a drink or anything. But his date was going great. Exactly. I was like, oh my God, he has a wine now. Like they're like literally on a date. But then I look over and I was like, oh, she's not there anymore. Okay. Then I was like, oh my God. She went to the bathroom. She asked him to hold her wine. I was like, what a move. Hold on a second. Well, that's an interesting conclusion. Why isn't it his wine? Because you think you would have saw him order it? I was like, I would have known that. You look over and the wine had just materialized. Exactly. I got you. That's more. It had materialized.

1:39:54It was a white wine. I was like, I know her. She was like, do you mind holding my wine? She didn't want to leave it out in the open with this other stranger. The counterpart to me. Think how that guy felt. I know. I felt horrible for him. What if you two would have caught eyes and rolled your eyes? We gotta be cute. That would be fun. But what would be more fun is if you guys just caught, you guys were both watching them and then you caught eyes with each other and then you both rolled your eyes. These two losers because you were hurt. Yeah, exactly. These two assholes. What the fuck? Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

1:40:41So I was like, I put it together. I was like, oh, my God, what a move. Can you put my wine? But it's also a scary move because she doesn't know him. Like, he could put something in there. She should have asked me if she was being smart. But anyway. And then I do see her come back. And she, you know, she's smiling at him. And then she sits down. And I am watching at this point. I'm watching them, my show, my TV show. And he gives her the wine. You were right. I was right. Oh, wow. She said, thank you. Then I really, in my head, was like, they are just me. Like, the way she said thank you did not feel like if you held my wine.

1:41:21Right, right, right, right, right. And I was like, oh, my God. It's for sure me cute. How do you know they weren't together? Then. Oh. I forgot. We're in a Seinfeld episode. I forgot. Stop. Stop cutting to the end. Stop fast forwarding. So then I'm, you know, stewing. Wow, you had a lot going on back there. I did. And I was like, God, I, you know, I can't get a stylist. No one wants to meet you with me. And then there was like a second of turbulence, like not very long. Yeah, I don't even remember it. Exactly. And, you know, I'm kind of like just close my eyes and then I look over. They're holding hands.

1:42:10Monica, they were already together. Nope. They're holding hands across the aisle. I was like, oh my. They've gone from strangers to in love on this flight. No, there's no way. They just went on the flight and they were holding hands during the turbulence. This went from zero to a hundred so fast. And then I did have to think, wait, did they come together? But how? Because like he was just reading his book. He wasn't talking to her pre-flight at all. I don't know. And it's still unclear. But I do think they went home together. Yeah, because they came together. No, because they fell in love. It was an eventful flight.

1:42:48It was. A lot happened. We got home very late. We did. Very, very late. We really did. But we had so much fun in Nashville. Yes, we did. Yes, we had a very fun birthday party. Yeah, it was your birthday. Birthday dinner. We went to your favorite restaurant. It was so good. It was so delicious. And I want to give a shout out to my neighbor, Nate. Okay. I got so fucking lucky with our neighbors in Nashville. Yeah. One of them is Nate, my neighbor, who we're the same age. Yeah. I kind of like that. That's fun. Yeah. It is. I really like it. But he has grandkids. Oh, wow. Because he started real early.

1:43:24Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In some ways, we're living different lives because he already has grandkids. But I just, I guess if I see a guy my age that's like crazy active with his grandkids, he's so active with his grandkids. That's fun. I just immediately go like, that's a fucking guy right there. Yeah. That's a stand-up dude. Yeah. And my experience having neighbors in Michigan, way different than my experience is having neighbors in L.A. In general, I don't know people that are friends with their neighbor. I don't have a single friend in L.A., and I have 35. Right. They do not hang out with their neighbors.

1:43:57That's true. I'm friendly to my neighbors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when I go back to Aaron's house in Michigan, there's no fences in the backyards. And when it's summertime, it's like everyone's grilling. Everyone's talking. People are walking back and forth in the yards. You know, it's a community. Here, we're just very anonymous. You know, there's just so many of us and we're very anonymous. And so whatever. It's just been 30 years since I had that kind of neighborly feeling. And I really love it. Yeah, it's nice. It's special. It feels like protective. Like I got your back. I'm watching out for, hey, I noticed this thing at your house.

1:44:29And I, you know. Yeah, that is really nice. It's just very nice. I like it. Yeah. Actually, yeah, that's funny. I noticed that when I was home in Georgia, I was at my friend's house, Christina. Kids were coming over. Yeah. And I was like, that's so cute. And I did have that growing up also in Georgia and in Tennessee. Yeah. We would just like go to each other's houses. Just in general, I do cherish that whole neighborhood vibe with a bunch of little kids. It is really nice. I agree. I think we need to do one last thing. Okay. And it's a New Year's resolution update because it's pretty comical.

1:45:03Okay. Which is if people remember, my resolutions were sprints. Yes. And not being affected by people's emotions. Yeah. And so January 2nd on my birthday. Yes. And this part I feel a little guilty about, but I didn't ask anyone to do it. But I think people did sprints because it was my birthday. Sure, they did, yeah. So it turns out like six of us. Not me. Not you. You knew better. And mind you, we made a ton of jokes about don't get hurt. Also, I laid out this whole strategy. Like anytime I get back into sprints, I like to do like 70 % the first time, then 80 % and build my – maybe my fifth time doing sprints on full out.

1:45:41Yeah. There were six of us. Yeah. And my – my competitiveness took over. Yeah. And Eric was like – I could hear Eric behind me. So I was like turning on the turbo jets. Yep. And the goal was to do six 30-second sprints, which again – Too long. Not to bore anyone. When I've done sprints in the past, it's generally like 40-yard dash. Yeah. A 30-second sprint is like 200 meters. I said this on the last. I was like, that's too long. It's too long. Okay. Anyways, on the fourth one, we're walking back, and I'm like, ooh, my calf feels dicey. But I can get through two more sprints. And then on that same walk back, Eric was like, I'm out.

1:46:23Just tore something in my butt cheek. and I'm like I'm still in and I got a third of the way through my fifth sprint I was like oh my god I gotta stop I think I might be tearing something yeah I'm glad you stopped all to say the sprinting resolution yeah is is proving to be more challenging we're hoping that was Friday I'm hoping by this Friday my cab feels good enough to resume you're gonna do it again got to but it was very comedic to wake up the following morning and Eric and I can't walk we're both like hobbling around the house. Yeah, I know. Welcome to 50s. 50s? No. I said no one above 35 should be doing this.

1:47:03It is hard on the body. Really too hard. Anyway, yeah, so that's over. Also, I want to give an update too. I do have a stylist now. Yay. So, and I'm really, really excited about her and she seems awesome and so we're going to give it a whirl. All right. Well, let's do some facts. Yes, ma 'am. Okay. So, Walter. I got my dad this book for Christmas, and he read it all, read the whole thing. In an hour? It's a small book. But, yeah, he blew through it. And he loved it. He loved it. Yeah. Well, like, when he reads a book like that, will he then want to talk about some of the things he learned in it?

1:47:47Or he just wants to say he liked it? He does want to talk about it, but I had to go to my room because I was tired. So he did want to talk about it? No, he just said, oh, I read one of the books. And you go, okay, I'm going to bed. Wake me up when you don't want to talk about that book. No, he just was like, yeah, it was really interesting. I mean, he said a few things about it. Yeah. But they were watching a movie. I don't know. Like, anyway, now he's reading Sapiens. I bought him that too. He had not ever read it. He doesn't read a lot. He's not a big reader. He's busy. But now that he's fake retired.

1:48:24Exactly. That was sort of it. He was like, you know, I want to. We had a riot talking about his retirement last night. Yeah. Yeah. My sweet dad. I was saying, because your dad is retiring, but he's also coming back as a consultant. Yeah. A contract. Yeah. A contractor or whatever. A worker, a contractor. And I was saying I would be a little mad if I was one of his coworkers. And we threw a big retirement party on Friday. Everyone got hammered and they had a hangover. And then you got to work on money. and you saw Shoke sitting at his desk drinking coffee, you'd be like, what? That's not how this works.

1:48:56I know. I know. Luckily, no one threw him a party. Well. Exactly. Is he sad about that? No. He doesn't care about anything. He doesn't care about anything. I love how you, like, we both agree your dad's one of the smartest people on the planet, but then you also make room for him being one of the dumbest people on the planet. Well, not dumb. Not dumb. Just. Unaware. Just not like what he's not interested in, he's not interested in. Right. At all. Like he doesn't care about a lot of things. Oh, you know what's fun? You just don't get to see your parents in other environments often than them being your parent.

1:49:35You don't get to see them with their other identities. Exactly. But one of my dad's co-workers came over to pick something up. And she's a friend of my dad's too. and they worked together for a long time, but now she's in another department or something. But anyway, she was chatting with us and like it was so fun to see like him with her talking about their work and their history and like, you know, his friend was like, I'm glad I'm not in that department anymore. It would be too sad to know you were retiring. Yeah, and like also... She loved working with your dad. Yeah. And then even talking about like how my dad is.

1:50:22And I mean, I shouldn't be surprised by this, but like the best one there. Yeah, no joke. Yeah. No doubt. Like, yeah. Oh, your dad must have loved hearing that. I know. Yeah. And I mean, I was so proud of him. Yeah. Yeah. You got a very good one. I know. There's a lot of them out there and you got a very good one. I got a really good pair. I have to say, I even, so I was getting my nails done this morning and I was talking to the nail esthetician. And yeah, we got on the subject of my parents and we, because I was talking about moving into the house. And, and she was like, wow, that's such a big deal.

1:51:07And I was like, yeah, it is exciting. And she was asking about like why I came. and I was like, oh, for acting and commercials, whatever. And I was talking about my first commercial, my first big commercial, the Herbal Essence commercial. And I'd forgotten some details, but I was telling the story and I was remembering that, you know, I had like, it was like three callbacks for that commercial. My agent called me and was like, can you be here in like two hours? Can you come in in like two hours or doing another callback? It's like three people, it's down to three people, you and two other people.

1:51:40And my parents were in town. I was with them. we were in Santa Barbara. Oh, we're their favorite place. Yes. India. And I said, I'm in Santa Barbara with my parents. Like, no, I can't. And then, you know, my dad was like, what's going on? I was like, well, there's a callback. And, you know, I can't. He was like, we're going right now. And I was like, what? I was like, I don't think. Well, and he was like, we're going like I we didn't come out here to do this. To quit on the 99th yard line. Or to hang out in Santa Barbara. Like, so he drove us back immediately. And then, you know, I booked it. And that was my first big commercial.

1:52:24And they were there. And they were there for my booking. And my dad said, he said on that trip, because, you know, obviously we had been driving around LA and looking at houses and all these things. And he said, you're going to have one of those houses one day. and I'm about to move into it. It's so, and then I was telling her this and I was like, she was like, that's, she was like, what a good dad. And I was like, he is. It's like, they are. And I really do not. You're right as the child. I don't think about those specificities. I know, I know like how good I have it. But those things, it's like, yeah, They're just really good ones.

1:53:08Yeah. And I'm very, very, very lucky. But yes. But I hate it. But you finished with it. But they drive me nuts. Sure. They're family. But that's because they're family. But I love them very much. So anyway. Well, I'm emotional now. And I understand. I understand. They're nice people. Well, I have a birthday present for you. You do? Yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, my goodness. This is fun. This is an unconventional size box. I know. Like generally when you get me something, it's a clothing item and it's in a bigger box.

1:53:48It is a clothing item in a tiny box. Oh, my God. No way. A Kmart shirt. It's a Kmart shirt, but it's also a dare shirt. Oh, my God. Kids Against Drugs. Lame. I know. I thought it was a double whammy for you. Yeah, the bumper says Kmart kids race against drugs. There's a lot going on here. Why are they Kmart kids? Exactly. How does one race drugs? Correct. How do you race against drugs? You can race on drugs. Yeah. It was a race where they were against drugs. Do you know how old you were when this shirt was made? No. You were 11 years old Oh wow You were just about to start racing against drugs Oh I had been racing I had been racing since I was 5 Against drugs And in 98 I was 23 I was on drugs Oh yeah The kids weren't really doing it for you though They were racing me but they couldn't keep up No they couldn't Oh my god this is great It's a Kmart shirt you had to have it Yes I love it I was just telling you that I watched a YouTube video on the history.

1:55:04It wasn't like the history of Kmart. It was just this graph that changed. And it gave you the amount of Kmarts in different states starting at, I think, 63 or 8. Yeah. And when it occurred to me, I had no idea. And I'm bummed about it. Yeah. It started in Michigan. I know. And there were so many more in Michigan all the way up until the 80s. Yeah. We were like blowing the rest of the country away. Eventually, it got passed by maybe California or a couple, but it stayed really high. And I was like, oh, yeah, I was my opinion of Kmart skewed by being born in Michigan. It's in your blood. I thought it was like as ubiquitous as Walmart.

1:55:41Right. We had a lot of them in Georgia, but maybe later. Yeah, I think later. Yeah. And in Michigan, they were more numerous than Walmarts. Wow, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's in your history and your lineage. But you told me that story, but I had already had your shirt already. You must have been so excited. Yeah. Okay. So, Walter. So, he mentioned a room where people gather that has a couch on the outside and cushions in the middle. It kind of sounds like a riddle, you know? It does. But I looked it up. It says, the room design you're describing is commonly known as a conversation pit or a sunken seating area.

1:56:19I want one of those so bad. You do? Yes, they're kind of making a comeback I saw in some architectural magazine. Oh, wow. But as a kid, those were big in the 70s. Oh. And so when I was a kid, they kind of had gone out of vogue, but you could still bump into them. And I was like, I want to sunk it in the living room so bad. Oh, yeah. I don't really know about them. You know, I just imagine the floor levels this and then it drops down another two and a half feet so that the couch hole area square is like so your shoulders are like just above the floor line. Interesting. Oh, I love it. Okay. Well, that's what he's talking.

1:56:51It was on the back of TV Guide a lot. Oh, is Bill Gates. Says. That's tricky. A mom named Mary. Yes. Mary Maxwell Gates. Mary Maxwell Gates. I like that. Maxwell. Did you have Max and Irma's down there in Georgia? Yes, we did. Yeah. Yes, we did have Max and Irma's. We were alive at the bullseye of the franchise restaurant. I know. Like there was no such thing as a Chili's in my youth. And then around my teenage years, all of a sudden, and it was the most exciting thing in the world. Listen, I was by a Chili's last week and I asked my mom, I was like, have you guys been to Chili's lately? She was like, we went last week.

1:57:31Oh, great. I was like, yeah. And I kind of, I was like, I want to go. It's fucking delicious. I know. I loved it. Yeah. They used to have chicken tacos, but they took them off the menu. They did? Yeah. Oh, no. I know. Yeah. Not caloric enough. Yeah, I guess not. Okay. Well, so that is all of the facts. That concludes the fact portion of the program. Yeah, he's too smart. What are we going to do? Thank you for my Kmart shirt, Monica. You're welcome. Thank you so much. It was fun to open up a box. It was a trick because it was a big shirt in a small box. Yeah. I like that. That's a metaphor. Yeah.

1:58:08Big things come in very small packages. Yeah. Yeah. We got there. All right. Love you. Love you.

1:58:45Thank you.