Arsecast Extra Episode 647 - 07.07.2025

0:00Andrew Allen: Hi, I'm Max Rushton, the host of The Guardian Football Weekly, alongside me, Barry Glendening, my co-host. Hey, Barry. Hello. Now, although every American found us during the World Cup, for the two that didn't, what can they expect?

0:11James McNicholas: Found us and fell in love with us, Max. They can expect three episodes each week of occasionally insightful analysis covering the Premier League, Champions League and beyond.

0:21Andrew Allen: Football Weekly is back. Watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

0:40James McNicholas: Hello and welcome to another Arsecast Extra as always with James from Gunnar Block. James, good morning to you.

0:47Andrew Allen: Good morning, Andrew. How are you doing?

0:49James McNicholas: I'm all right. You were in San Sebastian this weekend. Yeah. Were you just scouting the next player we're going to sign from Real Sociedad?

0:59Andrew Allen: I was on a sort of cultural exchange with Martin Zubimendi. Yeah, I mean, he was announced while I was there. I've got to say, Andrew, bumped into a lot of Arsenal fans in San Sebastian. There was a stag party of Arsenal fans on the flight over. I met an Arsenal fan on the way home. I met an Arsenal fan out there who said part of the reason that he'd come to San Sebastian was you and I banging on about it so much on podcasts.

1:29James McNicholas: But there you go. I mean, it's a great place. Friendly people, aren't they, as well? You know, welcome to San Sebastian, sonny. Do you fancy some fucking pinchos? The Scotland of Spain. The Scotland of Spain. Apologies to all of our Scottish listeners there.

1:44Andrew Allen: I think we single-handedly are boosting the San Sebastian tourist industry. I was banging on the doors of the Officina de Turismo, demanding my 10%.

1:56James McNicholas: Yeah, well, I think we might be waiting for that one.

2:00Andrew Allen: But yeah, great time. I had a brilliant time. Thank you for your recommendations.

2:03James McNicholas: No, not at all. It's a hell of a place. You can eat well and drink well and swim well. And it's a beautiful, beautiful town, isn't it? Incredible.

2:12Andrew Allen: And, you know, people rave about the food, and rightly so. Ham on ruffles in every shop. Incredible. I didn't eat another thing, Andrew, all weekend. just a pinch-o of Hammond Ruffles at every available opportunity.

2:26James McNicholas: The thing is, in San Sebastian, they're Michelin star Hammond Ruffles. That's the difference. You know, it's a different one.

2:33Andrew Allen: You know, you're paying for it, but worth every penny.

2:36James McNicholas: Well, look, you did pick a hell of a weekend to be away because a lot happened. And we're aware that there is, you know, some good stuff that has happened and some bad stuff that has happened. And we're going to address it all. But what we're going to do in particular with the news around Thomas Partey is record that bit sort of, we're going to put it out as a separate bit, if you like. So between part one and part two, because I think tonally it will be a very different kind of discussion from the one we normally have on the Arse Cast Extra. And it is quite different from some of the questions that we have.

3:14James McNicholas: And we understand it is a very emotive, potentially triggering topic for a lot of people. So it might be something you want to listen to. It might be something you want to skip. So I think that's the way we're going to do it. Do our part one. We'll talk about the Thomas Partey situation. And then we'll move on to part two, as usual, with all of your questions. That seems reasonable, Andrew. Let's do that. Okay. So look, we've got to start with Real Sociedad and San Sebastian and Martin Zubimendi, who is now officially an Arsenal player. Not that it was ever in any doubt, James, because we heard and read that it was all agreed, done and dusted as far back as March.

3:57James McNicholas: So Real Madrid, when they came calling, I mean, what was the point of that?

4:04Andrew Allen: Yeah, I mean, it depends who you believe on that. Real Madrid are quite insistent that they didn't come calling. I think Arsenal don't feel otherwise. I suppose we'll never quite get to the truth of that matter. But, yeah, it's been a done deal for some time. I think even before March, you know, it was effectively sewn up. There was reporting, wasn't there, in January. And I think things were very much lined up at that point in time. So a really good signing. I think Martin Zubemmendi is a quality player, a player who's been wanted by some of the biggest clubs. Liverpool obviously really wanted to take him last summer.

4:43Andrew Allen: He declined. And I think Arsenal have worked quite smartly and intelligently to secure this deal. And I don't think it was an easy one to do because the bond between Zubemmendi and Real Sociedad is so strong. And I think he obviously wrestled with the idea of leaving them. And I think probably would only have been prepared to leave them in a situation where it suited the club too. And clearly Arsenal and Larrayal came to an agreement that worked for everybody.

5:17James McNicholas: It was interesting in his interview with the Arsenal website yesterday. The word he used was, it's a drastic change. I think they translated it as, you know, really big change or a huge change, which I think is fine as well. But I think that does tell you a bit about how he wrestled with it because Real Sociedad is his club. You know, that's where he grew up. He grew up in San Sebastian. It's like any North London kid growing up and playing for Arsenal. The idea of leaving the club you grew up at and supporting, it's a difficult one, right? It is a difficult one. And then, you know, you're changing country and all the rest.

5:57James McNicholas: But clearly the work that Arsenal did in the background, which I think you reported on and other people have reported on as well, so that when Arsenal were looking for Mikel Moreno, they wanted to sign Mikel Moreno and Martin Zubomendi last season, but that wasn't a runner for El Sociedad. So that relationship between the two clubs and maybe building some foundations for Zubomendi to arrive to, because Moreno's been his teammate for many years. Mikel Arteta, of course, is from San Sebastian and started his career at Real Sociedad. Those things sort of probably made that decision a little bit easier for him.

6:33Andrew Allen: Yeah, I think so. And the fact that Arsenal, you know, I think it gave him more time, didn't it, as well, to kind of come to terms with leaving San Sebastian. It is a big thing. You know, we've both been there. It is a distinct culture and a distinct identity and one that, you know, is very important to the people there. I think stepping away from that is a very big thing. But he's joining a club with a manager who is Basque, who knows that world intimately, with players who have been at San Sebastian, you know, an old teammate in Mikel Moreno. He briefly played with Martin Odegaard as well. So I think that will have made the step easier for him.

7:17Andrew Allen: Equally, I think he's right to call it a drastic change. I think it's a big change in culture, but also in terms of league and competition. And I guess that's why it makes sense that Arsenal have opted for Norgard from Brentford to come in as well alongside him. a player who knows the league, who is settled in the UK, who might be able to assist in that adaptation. You know, Zermendi's in early enough that theoretically he'll be ready to start every game from the minute the season kicks off. But it wouldn't surprise me if there's a little bit of a transitional period for him in terms of getting acclimatised fully to English football.

7:59Andrew Allen: I don't think that's especially unusual for a player coming out of La Liga.

8:03James McNicholas: No, I don't think so. what I would say as well though he is 26 he's played you know Champions League he's played at the Euros you know the quality is is to my mind anyway there's no question about the quality of this player I don't think it would be a surprise if there was a little bit of an adaptation period but as well he's coming into a you know a pretty settled team you know this is a team that's been together for a good few years now I think we are going to see quite a bit of change this summer There's going to be quite a number of additions, so maybe that changes the dynamic of the team a bit.

8:37James McNicholas: But, you know, the plan for him, such as it is, will have been laid out, you know, very clearly in terms of what they think he can bring to the team from a footballing perspective, but also in terms of his character. And maybe now at 26 is the perfect time for him to make that move. And, you know, I think the fact this has been in the post, for want of a better phrase, for so long has made it feel a little bit underwhelming, you know, to people. And I get that so far our transfer business this summer has been like decent, but nothing particularly special yet, right? We've got a backup goalkeeper.

9:17James McNicholas: We've got a backup central midfielder. but Zubimendi I think is as you said a player coveted by Liverpool Manchester City were after him Real Madrid potentially were after him um Xavi Alonso of course a big um a big issue there because he's Zubimendi's favorite Spanish player of all time as we learned on his Arsenal uh content afterwards so you know he's a he's a high quality player who's going to bring something different to the base of the Arsenal midfield, which you would hope is going to have knock-on effects for the way that we play, you know? And to me, it's a really, really exciting signing, although I do understand why, at this point, people are just like, oh, good.

10:00James McNicholas: Thank goodness.

10:00Andrew Allen: A lot of Zubomendi fatigue, I think, isn't it?

10:04James McNicholas: And obviously, the events over the last couple of days as well, I think the plan was to announce him last week, but then we had the tragic news about Diogo Jota and then the Thomas Partey news came. So it was being pushed back. I kind of felt a bit sorry for him where these things completely out of his control were sort of shifting the landscape a little bit, but I'm glad it's done.

10:25Andrew Allen: I suppose you have to ask yourself, you know, Arsenal almost suffer from getting the deal done early in terms of perception, don't they? I mean, if there was a transfer saga that played out this summer where Xabi Alonso and Real Madrid had been in for him and, you know, the Liverpool interest was live and Arsenal had won that race and got the coup of signing Zubimendi, we'd probably all feel very different about it. And I do think this is a really high calibre player. You can question, I suppose, the fit or whether he was the right man. But in terms of his quality, I agree with you. There's probably no argument.

11:04His credentials are fantastic.

11:06Andrew Allen: And clearly, Mikel Arteta was really desperate to get this player. The process began, well, I mean, really more than last summer. You know, it goes back further than that. I think for January, before we signed Declan Rice, we looked at signing Martin Zubimendi, but he didn't want to leave in mid-season. You know, Edu was a critical part of it. Jason Ato and James King kind of inherited that from him. And the deal is over the line. So I think when we spoke a couple of weeks ago, we talked about like, you know, having the certain building blocks, certain foundations in place for the start of the season.

11:42Andrew Allen: We all considered him to be one of them. And I'm just glad that it's done and he can start training with the team and be part of preparations.

11:51James McNicholas: I also enjoy the fact he said in his interview that his English wasn't great while he spoke really good English. I don't know if you've had a chance to watch it yet, but yeah, his English seems to be pretty solid so far. And that's another thing I suppose that he'll have to get up to speed with a little bit. But, you know, there's plenty of Spanish speakers at the club as well.

12:12Andrew Allen: A smart guy. I mean, a chess player as well.

12:16James McNicholas: Well, there you go. You see, that's it. You've got that brain at the base of the midfield. You can sort of see the next move. I'm no good at chess because I can't see beyond, oh, look, I'll put my knight there. And then all of a sudden my king and queen are getting taken. I just don't see it. I just don't have that kind of brain. I think you need a particular kind of brain to be able to look two, three, four moves forward. You know, I don't have that.

12:42Andrew Allen: Absolutely. I mean, yeah, if he does well at Arsenal, we're going to read 100 intros this season to pieces.

12:51James McNicholas: Do we start calling him the bishop or something like that?

12:54Andrew Allen: Bishop Zubimendi. And the other thing, of course, is having name-checked Xavi Alonso in his introductory interview. So, you know, I think we can be sure that the Real Madrid links will probably persist for the remainder of his career. So that's nice. Something to look forward to. Something to look forward to next summer.

13:12James McNicholas: Yeah. So look, a Sunday announcement, a bit unusual. And Sunday is typically a day of rest. But yesterday was anything but a day of rest when it came to news. Because there were stories developing in the Swedish press, which were disseminating throughout the morning. And then all of a sudden things kind of kicked off with Big Vic and Victor Jokerez reportedly has agreed personal terms of Arsenal. And the clubs are, if not at the point of an agreement, they're certainly closer than they were. It looks like it looks like he's going to be the guy. It looks like he's going to be the striker. And that's a that's another big decision.

13:56James McNicholas: It's another big piece of news, another big piece of the puzzle going into next season, isn't it? And that's another one we talked about. Not necessarily 100 % that you need him there for preseason, but you want them there for the start of the season. And it looks like things are moving in that regard. quite how it's come to this development. I'm not 100 % sure. I'm not sure what sort of light you can throw on that because the Sesko Yacarez, Yacarez, Sesko, Sesko Yacarez, you know, we've been doing that dance all summer long. So do you have any insight into why it's kind of gone this particular direction?

14:31Andrew Allen: Well, I think some have been doing that dance more than others, not to, you know, not to pat the athletics coverage on the back. But I don't think we ever went hard on its advancing with Sesko. I think that there were always difficulties about that deal that led a lot of people to believe it would ultimately be Jokeres. I think, well, I am going to pass on the back, actually. Fuck it. I think we were the first in March to say that Jokeres was a target. And now it looks like it will indeed be him. How it's gone that way is a really interesting one. I suspect ultimately a lot of it is down to numbers.

15:15Andrew Allen: I think that Arsenal struggled to come to terms with both Leipzig and Benjamin Sesko. I think it was always looking like the more expensive deal. And with Arsenal wanting and needing to make other additions to the squad, I suppose there was an appeal about Jochores from an economic perspective. I also think there were people in the club, Andrea Berta among them, who wanted Jokeres most. I think this is a really interesting moment from that perspective. You know, Berta has kind of got his guy. And I think the distinction of, oh, Berta wants Jokeres and Arteta wants Sesco was never quite right. I think that was a bit too simplistic.

16:04Andrew Allen: But I think that probably of the two, Sesco appealed more to Arteta based on what I've heard. So it's really fascinating that it appears to have swung to Jocharez. And it's a bit of a departure, really, in terms of how things have gone at Arsenal.

16:21James McNicholas: Do you mean like in terms of influence over player arrival?

16:27Andrew Allen: Yeah, I think so. Like generally Mikel gets what he wants, doesn't he? And, you know, I'm not saying he's opposed to Jocharez or anything like that. but I just think Berta's influence has been really clear on this and maybe it's a bit of a show of strength and it's a really big call it's a big call what's your reaction I mean

16:51James McNicholas: my reaction you know I think we talked about this a couple of weeks ago and we were asked like which one would you go for if you know you could pick one and I think I went with Sesco because the potential is there you know for him to develop into something um and that would probably still have been my my preference but i was always of a mind that whichever one it was was going to be able to come into this arsenal team and score goals i didn't really have that kind of worry i didn't think one would flop and one was the only guy who would work it was just a question of of preference i think you know i could be wrong and maybe it'll come out in the wash as you say the financial aspect of it.

17:33I think it was more difficult or maybe Leipzig were making it a

17:37James McNicholas: bit more difficult. And it comes to a point where you have to make a decision. You can't hang around all summer trying to negotiate one off the other to see if you can drive the price down, particularly if one side is not really for budging. And there were stories about Leipzig wanting a lot of money and a lot of that money up front, which didn't make huge sense to me, but it might be a part of why Arsenal have decided to go in the other direction. I mean, the thing I would say about Jokeres is he's 27. We're in, I think, a win now moment for Arsenal, right? Clearly. The pressure is on. Zubimendi is 26.

18:21James McNicholas: He's coming in to play a key role. there's expectation, there's pressure. This is a really, really good Arsenal team, but we haven't won anything for five years, whatever it is, since the FA Cup. We've come really, really close, and nobody can take that away, but there's no trophy for a runner-up, etc., etc. So I think some of the decision-making has to be about how we get ourselves over the line in terms of silverware. Jocharez, late bloomer perhaps, Perhaps, you know, his career trajectory is a bit, what's the word I'm looking for here? Unconventional, right? To sort of be at Brighton, then go on loan, and then go to Coventry, and then go to Portugal and just start scoring goals at the rate that he's scoring goals.

19:13Andrew Allen: Yeah.

19:14James McNicholas: It is a bit unconventional. And there is that worry about the pathway from the Portuguese league to the Premier League. I get that. I don't think there's any way he scores goals at the rate that he scored them for sporting. But I also don't think we need him to score goals at that rate. I think we need him to be somebody who augments the squad and adds to what we already have. And part of that, I guess, is depth and keeping people fit and keeping rotation options. And, you know, we're looking at building out this squad in a way which allows us to sort of keep our best players in the best shape as much as possible without asking too much of them until their hamstrings explode.

20:00James McNicholas: So if Jokeres comes in and scores half as many goals as he does for sporting, it's still going to be plenty for Arsenal, you know, thinking that next season, are we going to get a bit more from Kai Havertz? Are we going to get a bit more from Bakayo Saka? Can we get more from Martin Odegaard in front of goal? I think we can. Can we get more from Martinelli or whoever the wide players are going to be? I think we can.

20:25Andrew Allen: 20 goal, Nani Madueke.

20:26James McNicholas: Yeah, well, we'll come to him. But I'm pretty comfortable with it, I have to say. I recognize the concerns people might have about the transition from Portugal to the Premier League, completely. But I also think we're looking at a guy who is physically very powerful. I watched him when we beat Sporting 5-1 in Lisbon. He gave Saliba and Gabriel something to think about. On a day when Arsenal won that game easily, he still gave them a little bit of a problem, you know, at times. So if you can do that to the best central defensive partnership in Europe, then, you know, I don't really have too many concerns about his ability to cope with what the Premier League has to offer.

21:13James McNicholas: I've seen people talk about how he is really, really physical. He's, you know, he's a fighter. He's a bully. I love that, you know, and his focus seems to be entirely on scoring goals. And I love that, too. And we need a striker and we're getting a striker. and it was always going to be a case that some people were Team Sesco, some people Team Jocharez, some people Team Watkins, whatever it might have been. But I'm glad at this point that the club of, it looks like at least, made a decision. They're going to make this deal happen. We get it over the line. There are other things to do this summer, but it's the one that's been on the back of people's minds, right?

21:53James McNicholas: We've got to get the striker, got to get the striker, got to get the striker. Here he is. And let's hope he can come in and really deliver because, you know, this is a team that needs more goals and this is a player that scores a lot of goals and I'm looking forward to seeing what he can do.

22:10Andrew Allen: Yeah, I think the front of people's minds, to be honest, I think it's loomed over.

22:13James McNicholas: Yeah, sorry, that was the wrong way around, yeah.

22:17Andrew Allen: But yeah, I mean, look, if you'd put a gun to my head, I probably would have said Sesko just because of the sort of long-term potential there and the slight feeling of like, you know, if you miss that train, what does that player potentially go on to be? I was excited by that. But I understand that this idea that Arsenal are at a point where they need to win now. You point out the ages of Zubimendi. Look at the age of Kepa, 30. Norgard, what, 31 is he? 32 maybe? These are signings that are being made to have an immediate impact and Jokeres can be filed among them. Yes, it's an unconventional background.

22:57Andrew Allen: and he arrives at 27. To be fair, the same could be said for Ian Wright, who came to the club at that age with probably an even more unconventional rise through the game to that point. I'm not saying he's going to be Ian Wright, but we needed a striker. We've got a striker. We've not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I don't think it's coincidence that it's accelerating now when pre-season is beginning and Mikel Arteta is starting to work with his squad seriously and in a tactical way because I think some measure of adaptation tactically will be required to accommodate Jochores and on his part as well to be an Arsenal striker in the Premier League rather than a sporting Lisbon striker.

23:46Andrew Allen: I think the parties are going to have to sort of meet in the middle. There might be a period of transition or acclimatisation. who knows a bit like with Zubomendi but I'm just glad we we seem to be heading towards a resolution here and it's a really essential part of the jigsaw and a decision has been made and and listen I I couldn't say to you they've got this wrong it should have been Sesco you know I just don't think it was clear enough between those two I think it was extremely hard to know definitively who would be, there's always unknowns in any transfer. I feel like in this one, there was no home run, obvious, you know, no doubt solution.

24:31Andrew Allen: Beyond Alexander Izak, I don't know who that would have been.

24:34James McNicholas: Even Izak at the price that you would have had to pay for Izak comes with a measure of risk or uncertainty, you know? Like, would he fit? Absolutely he would, and he's a great player. But I do think you're right. The fact that these are the two players, Sesko and Jochrez, over whom there are question marks, whichever way you want to look at them, that these are the two guys who have dominated the striker discussion this summer tells you a little bit about what's out there on the market as well.

25:03Andrew Allen: Yeah, and I think one factor that I think will matter to supporters is that it feels like Jochrez has gone out on a limb a bit to make this deal happen.

25:15James McNicholas: Yeah, he's pushed, hasn't he? He really has.

25:17Andrew Allen: He has pushed, you know, he's agitated with sporting. I know there's talk of him reducing his personal terms. You know, he's still going to be very well rewarded. I don't necessarily think that's as big a deal as it might seem, but he has agitated and pushed to make this happen. He's desperate to come to Arsenal. I think as fans, you want to see that from a new signing. So I'm excited, to be honest. You know, we've longed for a man who can kick the ball hard into the net. And it looks like we may get one.

25:53James McNicholas: Yeah. And watch out Premier League defenders. He's a big guy. He's a big guy. Adds even more height and presence to this Arsenal team. And look, I really, really hope he's a success. So let's see what the week brings on that one. but it looks positive that that's the way it's going to go and that's going to be the signing that we make. You mentioned Nani Maduweke, a player who we were linked with. It was reported again over the weekend or just before the weekend that personal terms have been agreed, but no contact between the clubs. I want to ask you first, what's your thoughts on signing Maduweke?

26:34James McNicholas: And then there was another question that we have here from Blue Sky from Mudo.bsky.social. He says, hi, gents. With Madiweke playing at the Club World Cup and in need for a three or four week holiday afterwards, should we really be in a rush to sign him in July? Surely we can afford some patience with him and prioritize maybe someone that can join the preseason instead. Instead, for example, Eze, maybe the concern, some of the concerns that people will have is that Eze is a tantalizing signing. Maduweke, maybe not quite so much. And it's sort of like, well, if we do one, can we do the other? So I don't know what the lay of the land is there, but your thoughts on Maduweke and also the timing of it, because I think that's a really good point.

27:19James McNicholas: If he's at the Club World Cup, the abomination of a tournament that I haven't watched, he is going to require some holidays. and it is going to take a chunk out of his pre-season.

27:32Andrew Allen: Yeah, there's a lot there, isn't there? I mean, in terms of the timing, I'm sure that it's partially motivated by the resumption of training and Mick Arzeta saying, you know, I need to get my squad together or at least know what I'm going to be working with, even if the players aren't going to join up just yet. but I think we also have to consider maybe Chelsea are a factor in this timing you know there's a story I think last night in the Times about them needing to recoup about 60 million pounds through player sales something to do with the financial regulations anyway they're always having to sort of

28:11James McNicholas: they've run out of hotels or women's teams to sell to basically yeah they're like looking at

28:17Andrew Allen: getting rid of you know Cucurella's kidney or something to raise a few quid and so it may sue them to get a player out sooner rather than later and arsenal might be looking to leverage that that's what i was going to ask you like is that a situation that

28:33James McNicholas: if we do want this player we should try and leverage as much as possible like if they've made a decision on this guy and if personal terms have been agreed it suggests kind of that they do you know there are people listening to this who will be going don't help chelsea by giving them any money at all and let them fall foul of the regulations for whatever punishment they might get, which is probably not very much anyway, but there's a sort of, oh God, why are we helping these cunts out again? You know? Yeah. I've got to say like, you know, we've - We did it before. Didn't that happen with Havertz?

29:05James McNicholas: It was that kind of scenario around the time we signed Havertz?

29:09Andrew Allen: Maybe. I mean, some people say that Chelsea have stockpiled so much. I mean, Arsenal have bought a player from Chelsea, is it something mad, like in seven of the last eight years or something crazy? Some people say Chelsea have stockpiled so much talent that, you know, actually it's maybe not the worst place to shop. Every year they have to shed a few players and there might be some decent deals to pick up there. Equally, you know, we cover a lot of transfers on this podcast and in my other work. And I can't remember too many reactions as negative as what I've seen around Badueke. Like in terms of the volume of comments, I think when Athletic did their agreed personal terms story, there were like 400 comments within like an hour or something like that.

30:00Andrew Allen: And they were generally not positive. So clearly among the fan base, I think it's two things. I think people are very wary and weary of signings from Chelsea. Yes. And I think it's underwhelming. I think Maduweke, you know, when you've been talking about Rodrigo or Eze, and, you know, they may not be linked, but the idea that you're then progressing with Maduweke is, it is underwhelming, I think. I find it underwhelming.

30:35James McNicholas: I agree.

30:36Andrew Allen: I agree.

30:41Andrew Allen: Irrespective of like whether it's independent of other players coming in, I don't love this. Like I don't think he'll be cheap. As much as we can try and leverage that situation, I think I saw a report that Chelsea be looking for north of£50 million. And like, I think that's plausible. I think that's plausible. Whether they get it, I don't know. but this is a player with like many years remaining on his contract, England international, 23 years old. You know, people are talking about him as a backup, but I don't think he'll have a backup price.

31:14James McNicholas: I mean, we did have a question about this from King Thierry on the discord. He says, I'm not naive enough to think the club should listen to fans about who to sign, but do you think there's some sort of obligation on the club to read the room when it comes to continually buying players from Chelsea? I think the Chelsea fatigue is a very real thing now. It absolutely is. I wonder would people feel quite as negative about this if you were buying Maduweke from Bournemouth or something.

31:42Andrew Allen: But could I make a point on that? I think part of the reason is that he's gone into a theoretically elite club in Chelsea and not always looked like an elite player. Like if you were signing him from Bournemouth or Brentford, you'd be like okay can he make the step but i would argue yeah yeah that's a good point you know there's a reason chelsea moving on from him um so i'm really surprised by this like you know also there's there's been question marks in malareki's past about his attitude and his training and you know obviously i'm not in the room i don't know if they're fair and sometimes players get reputation and he'll be judged on what he does when he comes to Arsenal.

32:25Andrew Allen: But given that, I'm really surprised that Mikel Arteta is keen to go down this route.

32:33James McNicholas: At that price in particular, I think if you can negotiate a lower price, then maybe it becomes a more palatable deal because I think you guys reported they see him as somebody who can play on both sides, on the left and on the right. Maybe the sort of undercurrent of this is what does it mean for Ethan Warneri as well?

32:56Andrew Allen: That's all bubbling under, right? At the same time. That might be the third factor in, I mean, you know, I think Arsenal see Ethan Warneri as a central player, to be honest.

33:08James McNicholas: So we have questions maybe that we can do a bit later on on that, but I think it's just sort of adding color to that reaction to the Maruike thing, you know?

33:16Andrew Allen: Yeah. So I don't love this one. I think it probably will happen. And that's, you know, it's the way it feels to me at the minute.

33:24James McNicholas: It's the immutable law of transfers. The ones that you don't want to happen feel inevitable. Well, the ones from Chelsea feel inevitable. They always do.

33:36Andrew Allen: Look, he's not a bad player. I'm not sitting here saying he's got no talent. He won't do anything. You know, he's not. The age is good, you know.

33:49James McNicholas: There is, you know, potential to develop, et cetera, et cetera. Where I am slightly with it is that I feel a bit tired of talking myself into a signing from Chelsea when I'm not convinced. But your natural reaction when a new player comes is to think the best of what they might bring, you know? And then you end up going, oh, God, I should have known better on that one.

34:15Andrew Allen: It's the Willian thing, you know? All I can say is that, as people know, I'm quite plugged in with Chelsea fans. I've got family who are Chelsea fans. I floated this with them. It's a deal they'd like to see happen. And that alarms me. Sure. I think if we took Kepa and Madueke off Chelsea's hands, I think they'd consider that very good business from their perspective.

34:44James McNicholas: Yeah.

34:44Andrew Allen: but the Kepa one I'm fine with. The Kepa one is a perfectly good deal. No one's going to ever argue with that. And I also think like we're underwhelmed, but, and you know, I kind of feel like as a journalist in inverted commas, I should be here sort of making the case for Maduweke and being rational about it. But we're supporters and we're allowed to care about where these players have come from and what they represent to us, you know. So maybe the club doesn't have to care. Maybe it's Arsenal's job to be forensic and analytical and all those things and see this as a market opportunity. Sure. But between us, you, me and the listeners, I don't like it.

35:28James McNicholas: Yeah, that's fair enough. That's fair enough. I think you're perfectly entitled to feel that way and perfectly entitled to say it. Like you, I'm very underwhelmed by it, particularly at the kind of price that you're talking about. You know, if he comes and does brilliantly humble pie all round, right? But until then, I think we're... It can't be 50, can it, Andrew? It can't.

35:46Andrew Allen: If it's 50 million, people are going to be... I mean, I remember when we bought Ramsdale from Sheffield United. I remember when we bought Jorginho from Chelsea. Trying to think of others. There'll be a big reaction to that.

36:01James McNicholas: Yes.

36:02Andrew Allen: If that happens.

36:02James McNicholas: There will. Particularly if down the line, it turns out that kind of expenditure on a player like Madueke is precluding some other business that we might prefer, you know? Yeah, yeah. That's, you know, that's where it goes. You know, in the end of August when the window is closed, you might be able to look at the Matuweke deal a bit differently depending on what else has happened and what else we've added to the squad, right?

36:29Andrew Allen: Of course, you know.

36:30James McNicholas: But now it is what it is.

36:33Andrew Allen: Yeah. Is he better than Raheem Sterling? I mean, yes.

36:39James McNicholas: Right. But that's the lowest of low bars, you know? It really is. It really is.

36:46Andrew Allen: We've got to set the bar higher than that.

36:47James McNicholas: Yeah, I mean, that's my thing, is that, like, if this summer is about raising the bar or raising the ceiling, then I don't think he does that on either side, you know? No. Based on who we already have. I mean, a player that we have over on the left-hand side, Leandro Trossard, some chat over the weekend that there's definitive interest in him from Fenerbahce. And listen, we've been doing this long enough to know that when transfer rumours originate in Turkey, you take a pinch, a big pinch of salt.

37:16Andrew Allen: What's the opposite of inevitability?

37:20James McNicholas: I don't know.

37:21Andrew Allen: Evitability? Evitability, yeah. There's an inevitability about transfer rumours from Turkey.

37:25James McNicholas: Yeah, yeah. But it does seem, you know, reports from the Belgian press as well suggesting Trossard in discussions with Arsenal over a new deal. he's just changed his agent and everyone's going, oh, they only do that when they're about to make a move. I don't quite know why. Maybe you could do that when you're trying to get a new contract as well. But that's one that's sort of in the air a little bit and potentially might require, if Trossard goes, might require another addition on top of Madweke.

37:56Andrew Allen: That's interesting, that agent change, isn't it? because they have been in discussions with Arsenal about a renewal. A pay rise. That's what we heard. Yeah, pay rise. That is what you heard.

38:11James McNicholas: Yeah.

38:12Andrew Allen: Pay rise rather than an extension.

38:16Andrew Allen: Yes, because I think David Ornstein has said, and I think I've said previously as well, that what else happens in the attack, there may be some connection to outgoings. Sure. Particularly on that left-hand side. We're talking about people like Rodrigo. It might require one of Martinelli or Trossard to go. There's been talk about Gabriel Martinelli in Saudi Arabia. Yeah. Not that I can verify it, but I've read the same reports as you guys. So, yeah, I don't know. It feels like there's a lot of moving parts, a lot of moving pieces. You throw Eze in the mix as well. Please, please, please throw a bit of Eze in the mix.

39:02Andrew Allen: But equally, you know, there's the Ethan and Wernary discussion, which we've got questions about coming up. I think it's quite hard to sort of confidently say what's going to happen from here on. And I think a lot of it will probably be market dependent in terms of sort of which dominoes fall.

39:22James McNicholas: Right. well there's still loads of the window to go you know well this is it but i feel like

39:29Andrew Allen: we're approaching a place where arsenal have you know we spoke about kind of the bare minimum and the foundations when we are sort of approaching the the place where arsenal have done those jobs yeah yeah they've sorted the goalkeeper they've sorted midfield holding midfield strikers on the way to being done. Tommy Asu, of course, was released last week.

39:53James McNicholas: That is such a shame, isn't it? Actually, I did mean to write that down. It really is a shame for him because, listen, I think, and I've said this on here many times, I think he's a really, really good player. That ability to play in any position across the back line is quite unique, really, you know, to play it at the level that he can play it. So to lose a player like that to injury is a real shame for us as a team, but also for him as a player. And I did want to ask you, you know, he is a contractor. He had a contract until next summer. Yeah. And here we are, you know, a year out from the end of that contract and a mutual agreement was reached between the player and the club to release him from that contract.

40:43James McNicholas: Now at Arsenal, he's got the medical staff, the physios, the rehab, the conditioning, the equipment, all the environment is there for you to do the work required for you to come back and be an Arsenal player. What struck me about this decision, beyond it being a real shame, was a worry that a decision like this, which is kind of unprecedented, really, tells us something about the seriousness of the problems that he is facing and faces for whatever happens next in his career, whether it's on the pitch or off the pitch.

41:27Andrew Allen: well yeah I think so I mean let's not forget it wasn't too long ago that Arsenal actively extended Mohamed Elneny's contract when he was suffering with a serious knee injury in order to enable him to undergo his rehabilitation with the club they knew at that point he'd probably never be a sort of serious first team player again but there was a loyalty there So my conclusion when you factor that in is that Tomiyasu probably wanted this release on some level. And I think he's found this period of being injured and unable to contribute and unable to play incredibly taxing personally, psychologically.

42:14Andrew Allen: You know, we know he's been going back and spending time in Japan. And I suppose this freedom from his contract enables him to pursue his rehab in whatever way he sees fit and maybe takes away that pressure of trying to get back as soon as possible. And that feeling of, listen, I'm projecting here. I haven't spoken to Tommy Yasuo or anyone close to him about this, but that feeling of inadequacy or I'm not delivering, I'm not doing my job. I do know he's someone who takes enormous pride in that and who values, you know, being able to contribute. And I imagine not doing that has been hurting him.

42:59So it's a very sad situation.

43:04Andrew Allen: And if he does get back to playing, and I think we probably do have to frame it in that way now, if he gets back to playing. And I'll be delighted. I'll be delighted wherever it is and at whatever level. I think that'd be fantastic.

43:21James McNicholas: Yeah. I mean, the thing, injured players, frustrate people and frustrate fans. And I get that. But I think sometimes there's justification, you know, whether a player's application or their work or their lifestyle might contribute to their, you know, unavailability. But I think with Tommy Asu, you're looking at a guy who's been an absolute model pro all the way through. and has just been really, really unfortunate to suffer the kind of injury that, as you say, raises questions about whether or not he's going to play again or at what level he plays again if he does come back. So that, for me, is just really, really sad.

43:55Andrew Allen: It is, but I suppose on the other side of the coin, it crystallises a need for Arsenal to do something in the market, and they're trying to with Mascara. So to come back to what we're saying, it feels like sort of the cake is taking shape. And I think now, you know, the signings that we're talking about or thinking about making are the icing potentially. And I feel like they may be ones that sort of need certain dominoes to fall. Sure.

44:31James McNicholas: All right. Well, look, we'll see. As we said, there's a lot of time left still this summer in the market to get things done. But I think that pretty much covers all the news over the last few days anyway, and quite a lot of news and good news for on-pitch stuff. Well, good and bad, depending on your Matawake stance on things. I know some people are a bit higher on him than we might be, and that's fine too. So look, we'll take a little break here. What we're going to do is take a break. Our question section will follow the next section in which we're going to discuss the news about Thomas Partey and his charges which were announced at the weekend.

45:15James McNicholas: So if you don't want to listen to that, you can skip forward and then we'll do your questions more in part two right after that. But for now, we'll take a little break.

45:30James McNicholas: Welcome back to the Arsecast Extra. In this separate section of the show, we're going to discuss the news involving Thomas Partey. On Friday, the Met Police issued a statement. It said they have issued charges and requisition to Thomas Partey in connection with the following offences. Five counts of rape, one count of sexual assault. The charge is broken down. Two counts of rape relate to one woman. Three counts of rape relate to a second woman. One count of sexual assault relates to a third woman. The offences are reported to have taken place between 2021 and 2022. This is obviously going to be a very difficult conversation, but we will treat this with the seriousness it deserves and merits.

46:15Andrew Allen: Yeah, and it's worth saying as well, Thomas Partey denies charges. and Arsenal, for their part, say that throughout this process, they followed all safeguarding and sort of legal guidance. So that's kind of the big disclaimer on the top of the conversation.

46:38James McNicholas: Right. It is clearly, though, a very serious situation. I don't quite know how to get into the bones of this. We can't talk about the case itself or the cases or the charges in any way. You don't want to do anything to prejudice a case before it reaches the courts. But it is an Arsenal player or former Arsenal player, I should say, who has been charged. And this has been something that's been in the background for quite a while.

47:10Andrew Allen: It has. And I suppose the first thing to say is that we've not been able to talk about it. Yes. because I know not everyone lives in the UK or is aware of sort of UK law around this. And I've had messages from fans and supporters saying, you know, why aren't you talking about this? And the simple reason is that we've not been able to write for fear of prejudicing proceedings. And forgive me if that's the wrong language, by the way, neither Andrew nor I are lawyers or legal experts. But that much was clear. It's not something we were able to talk about. And that's actually been a very frustrating thing because, you know, it's such an important issue and something we've wanted to address.

47:55Andrew Allen: But now that the charges have been made, we can address.

47:58James McNicholas: We can. I mean, what we can talk about, I suppose, is maybe how it was handled. Maybe how the club handled things. and I guess maybe how it's made us feel?

48:15Andrew Allen: Yeah, I'll have a go. I mean, I understand and agree with why we've sort of isolated this conversation because it's so distinct from the general tone of the podcast. But I have to be honest and say I found it very difficult over the last few years because that's what we're talking about in terms of how long this has been going on, to isolate it in my engagement with Arsenal, professionally and personally as a fan. It has been in my mind throughout and I think has kind of compromised much of how I've felt about things. For me, it is...

49:09Andrew Allen: I find Arsenal's handling of it difficult to accept. I have to say, very difficult to accept and very difficult to align with. And there's two parts to that, really. One is, you know, while the sort of proceedings were ongoing and Partey continued to play for the club. And I understand there's a debate about that and we can have that debate. For me, the real point, the second point, was when the club attempted to extend his contract. While this was still ongoing and CPS was still looking into it and there was still a chance that charges could be brought.

49:55Andrew Allen: and while I can understand a kind of legal and rational logic for why you might continue to use a player under suspicion of these sorts of offences considering extending that player for me is a whole nother level and is completely impossible for me to understand. I'm very thankful that it didn't come to pass. From a sort of personal perspective, I would have found that incredibly difficult. But yeah, I do find that hugely difficult to reconcile. Chiefly, that Arsenal sought to extend the contracts of a player in this situation.

50:45James McNicholas: Yeah, I agree with that completely. I think there is and has been discussion about what the right thing to do was when he was first arrested and bailed, and whether you can suspend a player based on that. I think, as you said at the top, Arsenal will say legally they didn't do anything wrong. But there's a sort of legal obligation and a moral obligation. if you look at the details of of what's gone on and those are very easy to find if you want to do a little bit of reading the idea that when his contract was coming to an end on june the 30th and that is a natural way to end things if that's the right way of putting it the people at the top of the football club in full knowledge of what those accusations were thought yeah we we can give this guy a new contract we should give this guy a new contract i think is is shameful really it's beyond the pale it really is um and by the way this isn't

52:01Andrew Allen: speculation it's there in black and white arsenal put out their list of released players with an asterisk against the name of Tom Sparte saying they were in contract talks with him.

52:12James McNicholas: Yeah.

52:12Andrew Allen: This is not based on, to be fair, very good, credible reporting. This is something that Arsenal said themselves. I agree. I think there are two parts to it. Again, I think there's a huge ethical, I've got a huge ethical issue with that. I think that's, I think it's wrong. but I also think like whatever you may think of Thomas Partey, whatever you may think of the case or the legal proceedings, what I would ask is this, did the people running the club do the right thing to protect the club in that instance? When, you know, even if you're thinking cynically about it, they were afforded an opportunity to end this relationship organically and didn't seize it.

52:58Andrew Allen: I find that extraordinary. I don't know how I'm supposed to trust the people that we, and it's a secondary issue, right? The most important thing are the alleged victims and all that. But as an Arsenal fan, how am I supposed to trust these people with the running of this institution and organisation that they were prepared to put the club's reputation at that sort of risk? It's utterly ludicrous. and I think they may say legally we did the right thing we followed safeguarding procedures I think this was about football I think that I think Thomas Partey played for Arsenal in that period because he's a good football player and that's what mattered most to Arsenal

53:48James McNicholas: Yeah, I agree

53:50Andrew Allen: and I think that's probably why they wanted to extend his contract he had a good season Mikel Arteta likes him. He thinks he's good. But I think the fact that nobody could turn around to Mikel Arteta and say, no, this is not good for Arsenal Football Club is pathetic. I don't understand, James, how in all the time that this has been going on,

54:13James McNicholas: and you've been at games and I've been at games and many people have been at games and people have watched games on TV and heard the reaction from opposition fans when he's on the ball singing that dreadful song. I mean, I have to say anybody, whether it's an Arsenal fan or an opposition fan who turns something like this into an opportunity to, you know, for bants for for want of a better word you know ought to be treated with with just outright contempt it's terrible but that has been following arsenal football club around for all of this time and how are people sitting in the stands the owners the executives the manager they're not blind they're not deaf to all of this and not think this is not good enough for arsenal football club let due process take its course, et cetera, et cetera.

55:15James McNicholas: But as a fan, to hear those boos all the time and know why those boos were being directed at one of our players, you know, it's kind of stomach churning and has been for all of this time.

55:28Andrew Allen: Of course. And listen, I couldn't cheer when his name was read out before a game. I couldn't cheer when he scored a goal. Other people will have their own feelings about it. That's where I was. And we don't know if he's guilty and the courts will decide. But with that cloud of suspicion, I did not feel comfortable with that. It's been very difficult having to talk about him in a kind of objective manner while this has been ongoing.

56:01Andrew Allen: And some will feel it's, you know, I've already had people messaging me saying they feel that's hypocritical. You know, that we discussed or analysed his on-field contribution during that process. And fair enough, like if that's how you feel, you know, you're entitled to that opinion. That was kind of the advice I was given on legal grounds.

56:24James McNicholas: I mean, listen, I think, you know, we have said whatever we've said about Thomas Partey, the footballer, when necessary.

56:36Andrew Allen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

56:38James McNicholas: And that's kind of where I've been with that. And, you know, I've had, you know, like you, I've had messages and people saying, you know, you're downplaying this. You're not giving him the credit he deserves. And maybe, you know, if you're looking at it through a different lens, maybe that's true. But I can only look at him through the lens with which I view him based on the seriousness of these accusations and now these charges.

57:04Andrew Allen: Yeah. And I feel very strongly about this and I should couch this, that like, it's personal, like everyone's going to have a different emotional reaction. And, you know, allegations of this nature for me are quite triggering. You know, I work in an industry as well as football, entertainment industry, which is rife with predators and problems. And I've encountered those in my life. So I have to hold my hands up and say that this triggers me maybe more than it would others. But I am really struggling with this. Like I am really wrestling with this. And I have to say that when there was talk of Thomas Partey's contract being extended, I very seriously considered giving up my season ticket because I felt like I don't know how I can endorse this.

58:01Andrew Allen: And I think that that's, for me, that's, you know, the contract renewal. Yeah, that clearly was problematic. The period before that, when he was being played and used, Arsenal will always be able to fall back on. Well, you know, innocent to prove him guilty, all those kinds of things. He hadn't been charged. Employee law. And I have to say, I don't feel that way because I don't think football is a conventional workplace. I don't think you can treat Premier League football like you do an office or any other workplace. Because every time you pick a player, you put him on that pitch, you are promoting effectively that player.

58:56Andrew Allen: And you are saying, this guy represents this badge. And it's an endorsement of that individual for my money. And I think that this idea that if you don't pick him, you're somehow contravening employment law stands up to no scrutiny because there are 20 other guys every week that you don't pick. And it's not always about talent. You didn't pick Mesut Ozil for years. For years. Was that about talent? Was that meritocratic? You stopped picking Pierre-Embic Abemiang effectively because you wanted him out. Football clubs pick 11 players every week and they don't pick 20 more. And they don't have to explain it.

59:51Andrew Allen: It's the manager's decision. That's what they sit there in press conferences and say. It's the manager's decision. It was completely within Arsenal's power to not play Thomas Partey. They don't have to sack him. They can terminate his contract. They've just done it with Tommy Asu. They've done it with Hector Bellerin and a dozen others. A contract termination is always on the table if you want to do it. But they could very easily have not picked this player and effectively moved on from him. And they didn't to win football matches. And I think that's pathetic. I think that is not good enough. we all want to win football matches but this club means so much more to us and has to stand for more and it for me it's just it's not good enough legally arsenal may have a case morally they do not that's my view others disagree and and and i know some people the principle of innocent till proven guilty is paramount and i do understand that but sorry to bang on andrew but i've been

1:01:07James McNicholas: waiting to get this off my chest for a very long time no i know you have so no listen like listen guilty is really important but but that's for a court of law yeah Yeah. As you say, they wouldn't have contravened any laws by not picking him. And there are other ways of moving a player on from a football club beyond terminating their contract.

1:01:33Andrew Allen: That's very true as well, Andrew. That is very true.

1:01:36James McNicholas: There are either standards of behavior that are acceptable or there are not. And there are players who have been disciplined and left out and isolated for behavior far less serious than these accusations. So where is the line? Where are the non-negotiables? I think the other thing maybe, you know, we're speaking about this, by the way, from a very particular perspective, right? we're not people for whom and i know you you spoke about your experiences in the entertainment industry and it's you know people who i'm sure are close to you have experienced things but we're we're two men right of course my wife said to me this weekend we were talking about this of course and she said there isn't a woman in her life who hasn't in some way been affected by rape or sexual assault or abuse either firsthand or adjacent to it.

1:02:40James McNicholas: And that's something that we have to reckon with as men, as how we view these situations. And the other aspect of this for me, and it's been an interesting one, is how this has affected fans of Arsenal who are women and who have experienced these things and how they've been left feeling like the club, I don't know if it's like sticking a dagger in, but don't care about how they feel about something as serious as this.

1:03:17Andrew Allen: Absolutely. And we are, man, and we, you know, society has a problem. Football definitely, definitely has a problem. You know, you need only look at the reaction on social media when, say, Benjamin Mendy was cleared from other footballers. I believe that within football, there is a belief that these women are out to get us. Yeah. You know, and I think obviously that's incredibly problematic. And like Mikel Arteta came out, didn't he, and made that quote of like, I'm so happy for Thomas Partey. I think after he'd scored a goal, after everything he's been through. And he later clarified that it was about injuries.

1:04:03Andrew Allen: And I think, you know, that was clearly sort of, in my view, that was innuendo. It's very obvious what he was saying. And I think that that, to me, demonstrates that there's this kind of us against them, backs to the walls, we defend our guys mentality. Yes. And that's, again, a huge issue. Whether Thomas Partey is guilty ultimately or innocent, I don't think anyone would dispute that football has some problematic attitudes around gender and maybe even around consent.

1:04:39James McNicholas: Yes, I think that's very true. And we have to remember, and this isn't to excuse anybody, but if you exist in a culture where you're in an academy from the age of 14, 15, and that is literally the culture that you live in and exist in every single day, it takes some work to change that. So to sort of round this out, I guess, is there a need for the Premier League to put in place protocols for situations like this, which I hope are very rare. You would hope it's not something that Arsenal have to ever deal with again for very obvious reasons. But the lack of, let's say, a definitive protocol in place for all Premier League clubs or all professional clubs, whatever it might be, feels like something that needs to be addressed.

1:05:39James McNicholas: Because as it stands, clubs are dealing with these things on a kind of ad hoc basis. like one club will suspend a player one club will do what arsenal did um and again legally they didn't do anything wrong but would it make a start on that cultural shift if in a situation like this there were very clear guidelines as to what should happen and how that player should be dealt with, for want of a better phrase.

1:06:13Andrew Allen: Yeah, I think that'd be good. How that intersects with existing legal procedure. I don't know. Like I said at the top, we're not experts in this. And I'm speaking as a fan, you know, rather than as someone who really has an expert handle on the sort of legal situation. I think, yeah, I think maybe special guidelines have to be in place for when you've got a job, like I say, that is different. It is different, where it has such high public profile and such reward attached to it.

1:06:57James McNicholas: The word you used earlier was represent. Every player that pulls on that shirt represents Arsenal Football Club. and yeah.

1:07:06Andrew Allen: But I keep coming back to this idea that it was within Arsenal's gift to take control of this situation themselves. They, you know, we're saying there needs to be a framework, there needs to be legislation, but Arsenal had every opportunity, certainly many opportunities to deal with this problem. Not only did they not deal with it, they actively sought to extend their relationship with this person.

1:07:33Andrew Allen: I just think there's some incredibly bad decisions made there and ones that are morally questionable and it's sad that we have to think oh maybe they need these kind of legal stabilizers to get to the right outcome you want to feel like the people running your football club can act independently of that

1:07:57James McNicholas: do you think there needs to be an explanation from the club around that decision to extend his contract i don't think we're going to get it i think the statement that they made is this is an ongoing case we won't comment i think i thank god by the way it didn't happen well absolutely because we could be talking about arsenal player thomas parte rather than former arsenal player thomas parte for all the difference that that makes you know to um to the alleged victims or anyone else but you know this it's already created a a stain on the club i think and it's really sad and you know the worst thing as a football fan we we can all be angry and frustrated about what we do on the pitch you know and could we have done this better could we do but to be that angry and disappointed at a decision that your football club has taken is not a nice place to be in um it's just not you know you you expect some listen this is a club that does amazing things locally and globally for the arsenal community which is why this has always felt so at odds with that you know yeah and the promotion of the women's team and all these things you know yeah and i think i'm hurt i mean evidently i'm hurt people will hear i'm hurt

1:09:15Andrew Allen: But I'm hurt because you want to believe that your club stands for certain things. And I feel like it's been laid bare that, well, in this instance.

1:09:29James McNicholas: We lost, I think we lost our moral compass on this one. And that's a shame. Yeah.

1:09:37Andrew Allen: And I think it was ultimately, you know, I think it's an indictment of the structure of the club that these decisions were seemingly made on a football basis. I think that raises some really serious questions about if the club has the right structure. Because somebody somewhere along the line had to draw a line. Whether it was the executives, the board, whether it was the owner, that responsibility should have fallen to somebody.

1:10:13James McNicholas: Yeah, it's a failure of responsibility across the board, isn't it?

1:10:19Andrew Allen: I think so. And yeah, listen, the case will play out. And perhaps if Thomas Partey is found not guilty, people will reflect on this conversation differently. But you can only feel how you feel. You can only feel how you feel. and I think that I come back to that question of like, was the club adequately protected here? Did people put the values and reputation of the club first and foremost? Were there ways to extricate themselves from this relationship before they did? Yeah. I don't think we will get an explanation, frankly. No. And there are probably legal reasons that make that extremely difficult, But it's, you know, we've isolated this in a part of the podcast, but I have to be honest, it's in my head.

1:11:18Like, I can't talk about Victor Jokerez and be excited about something.

1:11:24Andrew Allen: I'm not as capable of some of, like, sealing this off. You know, it has really, really damaged my relationship with the club and it will take time to repair and heal. But the reality is the current administration, the people who made these decisions, like in football, these people come and go. But I will still be here. And so will the rest of the fans. And that's ultimately what made me decide I'm not giving up my season ticket. I'm not going anywhere. It's because this club means more than the people running it.

1:12:09Andrew Allen: and I recognize that and you know it's kind of our responsibility and our duty to instill and uphold those values they come from us

1:12:24James McNicholas: so there you go there you go well look it hasn't been an easy conversation and I know obviously from conversations that we've had offline that this is something that has been on your mind, to say the least. And I'm glad you've had the opportunity to get it off your chest to an extent. Obviously, I wrote about it on the blog on Saturday morning. People can go and read that. There's another very interesting article you'll find in the show notes from the perspective of a woman and how it's made her feel, a really well-written piece, which you will find a link to in the show notes. I think we'll draw a line under this one now.

1:13:06James McNicholas: Do you feel like doing questions? Yeah, let's do questions, man.

1:13:10Andrew Allen: Let's do it. I mean, like I said, I think it's slightly, you know, we have to be honest and say, you know, we've had that conversation now. It's in the ether. If you skipped over it, which I hope you didn't because I think it's really important, you know, you might sense a slightly different tone to part one, but that's being a fan, right? That's the complexity of it all.

1:13:31James McNicholas: That it is. Okay. All right. We will take another short break here and we will come back with your questions.

1:13:45James McNicholas: Welcome back again to the Arse Cast Extra. This is part two or part three, I guess, in which we answer the questions that you send to us on bluesky at gunnerblog.bsky.social and at arseblog.com. Also on the Arseblog Discord chat server, which you get access to if you are an Arseblog member on Patreon. James, I want to go first because we did mention him in part one. Gunners and Guitars, who's at gunnersandguitars.bsky.social, says, are you concerned about the reporting of an impasse in the Wunary contract talks, apparently over guaranteed minutes? Are we paying the price for not playing him more last season?

1:14:23James McNicholas: And there is just sort of rumblings about the contract situation. I know.

1:14:31Andrew Allen: A lot of people are very unhappy with me for writing about that. As if somehow it's my fault. Yeah. And I've seen people saying, this is just agent spin. You know, everything's fine. I'm not sure about that. There's definitely an issue there. does it mean it's an issue that won't be resolved no you know I think if you speak to all parties Ethan would like to stay at Arsenal Arsenal would like him to stay it's tempting to therefore say well an agreement would be no issue but we all know contract talks don't always go like that and there is strong interest from elsewhere why would there not be this is a hugely gifted player coveted by has been coveted by some of the biggest Premier League clubs some of the biggest clubs in Europe and guess what he might be available for nothing in 12 months time there's going to be vultures circling in a situation like that am I worried about it um a little given given sort of the complexion of the rest of the transfer picture you know we are looking and talking about players in Madweke and Eze for example who there's there's no doubt their arrivals if they were to happen would impact Ethan's opportunities, I think.

1:15:54Andrew Allen: I'm not saying don't buy them, but I'm saying there has to be some consideration given to that balance, you know?

1:16:01James McNicholas: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Madweke, you know, if he's the backup for Bakayo Saka on the right-hand side, let's just say that's where he is. That's where, when Harry played last season.

1:16:13Andrew Allen: Yeah. And they may not see him there long-term, but. No, no, no, sure. He got a lot of minutes there.

1:16:17James McNicholas: Yeah, he did. And was effective from there as well. He scored nine goals last season, Waineri, in half as many minutes as Madweke, who got 11 goals. You know, so it's one of those. This is another reason why that 50 million and that player in particular leaves me a little bit underwhelmed. The question then is like, oh, can he play more centrally? And you've talked about that a bit in the past, where, yes, that's probably where they see him. But where exactly? If Odegaard is there, he's going to play a lot. Is he the backup for Odegaard? If you bring in Eze, there's questions about like where exactly does he play if he comes in?

1:16:57James McNicholas: I think those are pretty interesting questions, legitimate questions too, because you've got Declan Rice, you've also got Mikel Marino, you've also got Kai Havertz, you've also got, you know, players who can play in those positions where like part of the reason they let Fabio Vieira go was to give a lot of time. pathway to Waneri right but if you bring in Eze does that not just block that pathway in a more significant way so I mean

1:17:25Andrew Allen: Ethan's last agreement with the club went right to the wire right to the wire and there was talk all the way through that that Arsenal might lose him ultimately he stayed I'm hopeful that this will go the same way but there is that element of doubt and if you're Arsenal and you're struggling to make that agreement or it's not in place yet at what point do you draw a line I mean can you risk what do you do do you go into the last season with the contract unsigned and risk losing the player for nothing or do you have to say we draw a line here and we sell him now so I know it's a horrible kind of quandary and I'm not even sure that's the position it's in but that that must be well i can tell you it is part

1:18:18James McNicholas: of the conversations they're having to have well listen good luck to them fielding that if you sell when arian sign madweke best of luck handling that one it's um it'll be a it'll be a horrible situation to be in hopefully they can come to an agreement i really do i think he's an incredibly talented player and we saw last season that there is huge potential there yeah and and and you know

1:18:46Andrew Allen: he's back from the euros now i think they'll probably be picking up negotiations um in earnest this week and it may be that you know being cynical it may be that this public discussion of you know an impasse or interest from elsewhere is what's required to unlock an agreement sometimes it works that way. So let's hope for some good news because, you know, he's a player of enormous talent. I mean, another factor is that I think is interesting is like Max Downman behind that. You know, you've got a player a few years younger in similar areas of the pitch. Are Arsenal anticipating any kind of pathway difficulties in terms of those two players coming through together?

1:19:36Andrew Allen: in close proximity? I don't know. But yeah, again, talking about reactions I've seen online, you know, when I posted my column about the Ranieri situation, you had a very engaged, alert. Vociferous. Yeah, yeah. I think there's, I think, I think the idea of selling him is unconscionable to most Arsenal fans.

1:20:04James McNicholas: Yeah.

1:20:07Andrew Allen: So let's...

1:20:08James McNicholas: Shades of Raheem Sterling at Liverpool, maybe? I mean, do you think there is enough of a pathway for him at Arsenal?

1:20:18Andrew Allen: I suppose that's a good question. Like a player of his ability, 18 years old, he's just seen Myles Lewis-Skelly given a massive new deal. He's a first-team starter in the XI. I don't doubt that that has a kind of knock-on effect for Ethan's own negotiations. And we shouldn't say Ethan really, because frankly, he's 18 years old. He's not the guy in the room having the conversations, but his camp. Do you think Arsenal are doing enough to show him this is the right club?

1:20:51James McNicholas: We don't know what the conversations are in the background, but the fact that we're sitting here talking about Arsenal maybe signing SA, talking about signing a player who I think many people would view as potentially inferior to Nwernary. You know, even though he's five years older.

1:21:14Andrew Allen: I mean, they're reading the same reports as us.

1:21:16James McNicholas: Sure.

1:21:17Andrew Allen: I guess.

1:21:18James McNicholas: Sure. But you would imagine behind the scenes there are more, better conversations going on, right?

1:21:23Andrew Allen: You'd hope so, yeah. You would hope so. So I don't know. You'd be surprised in football, you know. No, it's true, yeah. A lot of the time people get their news from the media.

1:21:32James McNicholas: But that idea of where we're looking at the team right now, we're looking at the squad right now, and you can make a case for him to be playing here or there on the right, back up for Odegaard, maybe you could play him left. I don't know. Arteta talked about him maybe being a forward or a nine at one point. I'm not sure that's the case. And certainly that's not the pathway, given that we're going to buy Jacarez. So I can see why there might be a little bit of instability in that situation, where it's not blindingly obvious where he should play or who he should play ahead of. Does that make sense?

1:22:12Andrew Allen: Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm not sure that would be resolved by, say, joining Chelsea.

1:22:18James McNicholas: Well, no, no. There was a great, there was one on the Discord. Let me see if I can find it. It made me laugh. It comes from Kins97. He says, is this photo enough to persuade Wuneri to stay and not join Chelsea? And he's posted a Chelsea lineup. So Robert Sanchez in goal, fine. But his back four is Netto, Jackson, Nkunku and Madweke. Midfield of Pedro Sterling, Cole Palmer with Gittins, João Felix and Liam De Lapp up front. they have a well i mean they have a wealth of attacking talent i guess i suppose de lapp and

1:22:58Andrew Allen: palmer are kind of interesting analogues really aren't they because their players who were at am i right in saying they're both at man city uh i think yes certainly palmer was and palmer was kind of in a sort of similar position to ethan on the fringes of the first team and went to chelsea and his star kind of exploded. So we may scoff about Chelsea, but maybe they look at that and think, you know, there lies opportunity.

1:23:26James McNicholas: I mean, they could buy him and then in three years' time, we'll buy him for twice the price.

1:23:33Andrew Allen: No need for a buyback clause, guys. We'll be doing it anyway. When he's 31. Yeah, listen, I think we all seriously hope this doesn't come to pass. And I've seen, listen, And I've seen and sometimes been tagged into the response from some fans of like, this is all nonsense. And I would just say, I don't think it is. I wouldn't have written about it. You know, I think there is an issue to be resolved there. Hopefully it can be, you know, Arsenal are doing well on the contract front. They've got Gabriel signed. They've got Myles Lewis Skelly signed. They've shown already in this window, you know, if you look at Norgaard or something, they can do a deal very, very quickly.

1:24:18Andrew Allen: let's hope they can do a deal very, very quickly with Ethan.

1:24:21James McNicholas: All right. Your question, I think.

1:24:25Andrew Allen: Yeah. Hang on. I've just got to find it here. What have I got? What have I got?

1:24:35Andrew Allen: So, I have a very important question. Oh, this is a very different tone from Seth. Seth SJ. I have a very important question, which I'm bound to forget. I've had to ask our setter on Monday. So I'm asking now, this was a few days ago, but they've since nudged me to remind me. I've just come back from Glastonbury. Amazing, obviously. But what's your instinctive reaction to seeing Arsenal shirts at festivals? I'm not sure I like it.

1:25:00James McNicholas: I have to be honest and say I could not give a fuck one way or the other. I've got no opinion on this. If you want to wear your Arsenal shirt to Glastonbury, by all means. I don't know why it would be even a worry or a consideration.

1:25:14Andrew Allen: what's the problem no you do see a lot of arsenal shirts at festivals and i think to be honest some of our away kits in recent years have kind of been designed and marketed almost

1:25:24James McNicholas: for that opportunity yeah last season's uh yellow and weird away kit i remember seeing that when i

1:25:31Andrew Allen: took acid once well i think you know they do look like sort of rave gear some of the away kits i mean i i don't know how deliberate it is i don't know this part but you are seeing a lot of festivals I think it's great I think it means that Arsenal to be honest is a brand with some sort of cultural cachet attached to it and you see that I really like, did you see the Zubimendi announcement video with Femi, yeah very cool and you know as much as I've absolutely dunked on the club in the previous part um the sort of community around it is still pretty exciting and interesting and represents lots of sort of cool creative ideas and i think seeing that reflected at festival is a positive thing

1:26:22James McNicholas: what about this one it comes from the other andy murray so i'm guessing not the tennis player but that's just what andy murray the tennis player would say if he wanted to be incognito on our

1:26:37Andrew Allen: discord yeah just trying to think if there are any other noticeable notable andrew murray's um

1:26:43James McNicholas: andy murray

1:26:47Andrew Allen: there was a minister south african writer teacher and christian pastor but he died in 1917 so i don't think it's going to be him no i don't think it's him anyway the other andy murray says good morning

1:27:00James McNicholas: gents in a recent pod james said he hoped that carlos cuesta's replacement would be an attacking minded coach a people person and perhaps close in age to the players so what do you think of the announcement that defensive veteran gabrielle heinze is joining our ted's coaching team

1:27:20Andrew Allen: i don't think i did say that in fairness i think i said i think i said i wanted someone who'd like been a bit more experienced yeah yeah one things yeah um gabrielle heinze was the first name i thought of when Carlos Cuesta left and it took some time for us to actually corroborate and confirm it he's a really good friend of Mikel Arteta's um and someone who to be fair I thought was kind of done with coaching he sort of intimated last year that maybe he was kind of done with it he's been a manager um which is a positive I suppose in the states and in Argentina

1:28:01James McNicholas: but with decidedly mixed results. Some of the reporting on his time at Atlanta was...

1:28:10Andrew Allen: There's some questionable methods. I have to say I haven't verified all that myself, but the reporting suggests he had an unconventional approach. You know, maybe footballers need water. I don't know.

1:28:27James McNicholas: They're not camels. They can't store it indefinitely, you know?

1:28:31Andrew Allen: He kept trying to sign camels. He wanted footballers with humps. But I think, who knows? I mean, it's not been a great deal of reaction to it. I suppose people don't really care ultimately that much about backroom team. But this is a player who I really strongly associate with United.

1:28:50James McNicholas: Yeah, I know he went to Real Madrid. But I remember him as a Man United player. I remember not liking him one bit. and he also tried to go from Man United to Liverpool, which is like...

1:29:01Andrew Allen: Yeah, I sort of forgot. I thought he had played for Liverpool, but no, he wanted to go to Liverpool. Is that right? And United sold him to Madrid instead.

1:29:10James McNicholas: Yeah.

1:29:12Andrew Allen: He wanted to go to Liverpool, presumably to be closer to his beloved Mikel. I don't know.

1:29:19James McNicholas: Oh yeah, who was Everton at the time?

1:29:20Andrew Allen: Perhaps it was. Maybe. But they played together at PSG, of course.

1:29:28Andrew Allen: one thing I will say for him, he's a very fiery character. I mean, he'll say his piece and he has been a number one. So, you know, in terms of someone who will be a sounding board and offer some pushback, it's going to be interesting. I think he might be quite interesting on the touchline based on my memories of him as a player. Possibly.

1:29:51James McNicholas: Yeah, feisty. I think he'll bring a kind of lunatic energy to the training ground. Whether that's good or bad, maybe we need a bit of that. Maybe we need, you know, something unconventional as part of the push to get us over the line to become Premier League champions or Champions League winners, whatever it might be. He does feel very chalk and cheese, though, in relation to Carlos Cuesta, who seemed to be, you know, very well-loved by the players. You know, he was like a confidant. Like you said, close to them in age. Yeah. And he was kind of involved with the development aspect

1:30:25Andrew Allen: aspect of their careers wasn't he you know yeah he's gabby ainsade doesn't strike me as good cop no where are all the good cops that's my question yes well the good cop is is carlos cuesta and now it's sort of the worst cop yeah um let's see i guess let's see i think i think uh i think the the sky sports cameraman will get some mileage out of gabriel ainsay on the touchline next season would be my guess.

1:30:54James McNicholas: Listen, if he goes toe-to-toe with some touchline fisticuffs with that little guy from Brighton, I'll start to consider my feelings towards him again.

1:31:05Andrew Allen: I did like, I saw a number of replies saying, another left-back. Another Gabriel. Another Gabriel, yeah, very true. Okay, I got asked a question by Chris Black and I'll read it to you. It said, could James walk us through, in a very broad sense, one of those broad walkthroughs you get, how these deals come together and who leaks the info to the press? If we decided yesterday to move for Yoko Rez, what does that look like? First official bid at Berta phone call? Also, once that happens, who tells the ITKs and why?

1:31:43James McNicholas: Yeah, that's a great question that I should have asked you, actually. But, yeah, I mean, go for it. I'll try and answer. I mean, I think these happen things.

1:31:55Andrew Allen: Sometimes they get reported as if they're happening very quickly, but they probably take much longer. You know, I don't think Andre Berta's first conversation with Sporting Lisbon happened in the last two days.

1:32:07James McNicholas: No. I think he's been keeping that pot on the boil for a while.

1:32:16Andrew Allen: If we truly decided yesterday to move for Jokeres, what does that look like? I had been hearing over the past couple of weeks that things had reached a bit of an impasse with Benjamin Sesco. And frankly, the longer the process went on, the more I began to think it would be Yockeriz. Because it was kind of the thing of like, well, if it's Sesco, why isn't it happening? You know what I mean? and clearly they were sort of coming up against barriers on that deal. And given that I knew that certain people in the club were always pulling for Jokeres, it always felt like they'd eventually come round to that.

1:33:02Andrew Allen: You know, almost like they had, I don't know, this is pure speculation, but like they had to go through the Sesco thing to be like, no, it's Jokeres. Once that happens, who tells the ITKs and why and who leaks it? I do think leak is one of the most sort of widely misused words in sort of football fan discourse. I think it's so rare that anybody, a club, an agent, a player, deliberately place or leak something. I know that people will be cynical about that. but i think 90 of the time the reason that journalists or itks come by information is via industry gossip somebody had a meeting with somebody who told somebody else who told somebody else who told somebody else who tells you and at that point your job as a journalist is to verify it um and sometimes you know it's been distorted through being passed along and it's either false or not quite right or it's just baseless rumor but sometimes it's not and i suspect you know what's happened here it sounds like based on the portuguese reporting a delegation actually went out to portugal from arsenal somebody who was in that meeting had an agent had a meeting with an agent on another deal later that day.

1:34:39Andrew Allen: And they said, oh, we've been doing this. And then that agent tells another agent in their agency. And that agent's got a relationship with a journalist in another country. And, you know, it comes out.

1:34:49James McNicholas: Yeah. I mean, I think it was quite interesting that the report started in the Swedish press on Sunday morning that someone, you know, got some info, whether it was from an agent or somebody close to Yuccares or a family member, you know, the way these things can get around is, you know, there are many ways for the information to travel.

1:35:12Andrew Allen: It's quite rare though. And listen, maybe I'm doing it all wrong. But like, it's quite rare that an agent, for example, like, you know, again, when Aries, like a good example, It's quite rare that an agent would ring you up and say, yeah, so the deal's going ahead, just found out. You might want to publicize that. Or equally, you know, yeah, I don't know if you've heard, but we've reached an impasse in contract negotiations. Very, very, very, very rare that would happen. And if, frankly, if an agent or a club did that, my first instinct would be suspicion.

1:35:53James McNicholas: Yeah, of course. Why are they giving me this information? And what's the, how do I put it?

1:35:59Andrew Allen: What's the agenda? What's the agenda, exactly? Why am I being spun? Anytime anyone volunteers you info, particularly someone you don't know very well, you're like, okay, well, what's your game? What do you want out of this? And I think more often the process is you hear something, and again, clubs get this idea of like, there's a mole, there's a leak, there's one person speaking to the media. it's not the way it goes like if you're a good journalist you've got many many many different relationships with people all across the industry and you know someone might pass along a little tidbit of information and your job then is to is to contact the people involved and pull the thread exactly and people you know people might not lie to you they might say oh to be fair no that is right or that's slightly wrong they might you know guide you or give you a bit more context but it's very rare that someone goes, we must get this out there.

1:36:56Andrew Allen: And actually, like, if you think of the agent of a player, like Jokeres' agent,

1:37:03Andrew Allen: if Arsenal have just stepped up their bid to sign your player, and they've just gone in with, like, the official offer to Sporting, and then that story comes out in the Swedish press, that's not going to make you look good in front of arsenal you know so like it's not really in your interests you know arsenal will have said we'd like to keep this quiet you know we try to do things confidentially you if story then comes out in your home country and it looks like it's been placed by you it wouldn't derail a deal but it wouldn't be a nice you know it would sort of it could slightly damage their trust in you sure So I don't find that credible, that idea that like the people, that's the key point here.

1:37:51Andrew Allen: The people directly involved are rarely the ones pressing, pushing the stories. It's usually come via hearsay. Do those people, when a report comes out, will they, you know, confirm it's true? Yeah, probably. But the ship sailed at that point.

1:38:11James McNicholas: It's a young lad called Zhao who's at the check-in gate at Lisbon airport who saw Andrea Berta and whoever else.

1:38:21Andrew Allen: You joke, but you do get stuff.

1:38:23James McNicholas: I know, yeah. I'm not being completely taking the piss, but yeah.

1:38:28Andrew Allen: Absolutely. And like, you know, social media, we know the ITK detectives are on it, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's a really fascinating thing. and like, and obviously what happens is once a story breaks somewhere, so let's say Swedish press go with Jokeres close to Arsenal move. Well, every journalist in the sort of Western Hemisphere is, you know.

1:38:53James McNicholas: Following that up, yeah.

1:38:54Andrew Allen: Following that up. And then that's why you get the massive proliferation of stories. So, yeah, but it's, yeah, it's an interesting one to kind of, yeah, I'm sure it must be, I'm sure people must be curious how it all comes to play.

1:39:09James McNicholas: Sure. Some very good information for any future journalists out there. I think, James, we should probably finish up here. I did have a question about outgoings, but that might well wait until next week. Depending on what happens this week, the outgoings are another issue that we have to think about this summer. So maybe we'll leave it there. But for now, just thank you to everybody, as always, for being with us. Thank you for listening and for all the rest. I don't know what I'm even saying. This has been going on so long. Honestly, I've run out of words.

1:39:47Andrew Allen: Yeah, we've done a lot of words. We've done a lot of words. Thank you, everybody, for listening and have a great week. Bye-bye. Bye.

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