Arsecast Extra Episode 650 - 24.07.2025

0:00Hi pod fans, Max Rushton here from the chart-topping Guardian Football Weekly Podcast. Don't like to crow. If you enjoyed the World Cup with us, you'll be glad to know we're back for the new Premier League season. Expect three episodes a week, questionable predictions and the biggest stories in soccer from the Premier League to the Champions League and beyond. Watch now on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

0:32Hello and welcome to another Arsecast Extra, as always, with James from Gunnar Blog. What's not always is recording in a hotel room in Singapore. I know. And it's so early in the UK. People are going to be so happy. This podcast is going to, you know, in the Western Hemisphere, they're going to get this way earlier than usual. I'm still befuddled by the time zones a bit. Like, I know it's morning here when I wake up, but I'm sort of... Yeah. Like, the last few years, if you've been in the US, for example, you're behind. Right. So you're trying to, like, check in at home, and you're figuring out what time it is there.

1:11But it's like midnight here, and it's only, like, five in the evening back in Ireland or the UK. It's quite weird. We're in the future. We're living in tomorrow. That's essentially it. We're living in the tomorrow while everyone else is waiting for tomorrow to arrive. Also, it's got quite a futuristic vibe, hasn't it, Singapore? Yeah, it really does. I mean, what have you made of it? You got here Saturday or Sunday. I got here on Monday. It is sort of breathtaking in many ways. Yeah, I mean, if you've never been before, I didn't even realise this really until I came, but it's basically a city, right?

1:49It's like a city-sized nation. Yes, a city-state. A city-state. And unlike many cities back home, it sort of combines this kind of very modern. We're looking out over it now. And there's like very modern, sort of interesting, attractive architecture. And then a lot of nature as well. And it's a pretty spectacular combination. Yeah, some of the views, if you can get up high, and we're lucky enough to be quite high in this hotel room. We're looking out over the stadium, actually, where Arsenal played last night. Yeah, you know, I wasn't quite sure what to expect. I've been to a lot of cities in my life, but I have to say this one is, you just keep stopping and looking and going, oh, I've got to take a picture of that.

2:38And then you look at the pictures and the pictures don't really do it justice, which is often the case with photos, I know. But it's... There is a kind of science fiction element to it, I think. Yeah. Like the tube, the MRT, as it's known here, is, you know, you live in London, you go on the underground all the time. Conceptually, the very same. The execution is different. It is different where, for example, we got on one, you go down one level and the train is going, I don't know, west. And then you go down again. So the trains are running on top of each other, you know, in opposite directions.

3:17It makes an awful lot of sense. but then when you see it in application it's sort of like this is like being in Blade Runner or something It is, yeah There is a real kind of Blade Runner vibe to it but lovely people as well Amazing We've met a lot of Arsenal fans out here Everyone's been very nice Yes, they really have We did a little thing at Molly Malone's which is where the Arsenal Singapore supporters meet Irish Bar To watch games, I presume, at all kinds of crazy hours Yes I mean, that's the thing as well. When you come forward in time to live in the tomorrow, you realize what a commitment it is for fans all over the world, outside of Europe, for example, who have to either get up at crazy times, stay up for all hours.

4:08That commitment is not something we're unaware of, but it comes back into focus, doesn't it? Well, if you're watching a three o 'clock kickoff, from London, you'll be up till midnight here, basically. And if it's a Champions League night, it makes you good luck. So, yeah, it's amazing. And the passion for Arsenal is palpable, as it is wherever the club goes. And, yeah, I think there was massive appreciation in the stadium last night for seeing those players. And, yeah, it was a great night. Yeah, I think the Arsenal fans well and truly outnumbered the AC Milan fans out here. Maybe because of the prevalence of the Premier League.

4:53And, you know, I think what's interesting about here is that the language, predominant language, is English. So I think that helps connect people more easily with the Premier League and with Arsenal. But, you know, coming off the MRT to go into the stadium, which is, again, like just a seamless kind of thing, pulls up, there you are right at the stadium. You could see the Arsenal shirts far, far outnumbering the AC Milan shirts. Yeah, there were just over 22 ,000 in the stadium, which was about halfway full, do we think? Yeah, just a little under halfway. I think the capacity was 55, something like that.

5:36But I would say the vast majority appeared to be Arsenal fans, And I think there was a contingent of local fans as well who were making their presence felt. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see what the attendance is like on Sunday because two Premier League teams. I wonder if that will give it a bit of a boost. I think so. And people were saying last night it is that sort of midweek, you know, getting away from work. I don't think that tickets are cheap either for these preseason games, which I think was an issue, let's say, for at least one of the games in the U.S. last year where I think if they'd made tickets more affordable, the L.A.

6:19Galaxy Stadium would have been probably full despite the midweek thing. But, you know, those things I think are in the hands of local promoters really, aren't they, how they charge? Most likely. But hopefully, you know, on Sunday it will be a bigger attendance and a bit more atmosphere. But I do think, you know, the fans inside the stadium last night really did try. And they were, I said it to you at halftime, what was fascinating was the halftime whistle went and then people got up. And they went to the bathroom and they went to get a drink or some food or whatever. And it's so at odds with the home ground at the Emirates and, you know, Premier League grounds in general.

6:58that three, four minutes before halftime, people start sneaking off. They want to get there first. They don't want to get in the queues. Not a soul got out of their seat until the whistle went. Well, everybody's soaking up, I suppose, every minute of Arsenal action that they can. And it's not just fans from Singapore who are here as well, it's worth saying. I mean, this is a bit of a hub, isn't it, for this part of the world. And we've met fans who've come in from China, Malaysia. Indonesia. Indonesia, Australia, New Zealand. Yeah, I mean, all over the place. So, yeah, I think it's a really cool opportunity for basically fans in this half of the planet to get a chance to see Arsenal.

7:39Yes. So let's talk a bit then about what we saw last night. Yeah. We were sat together in the press box. Yes. That's a first. That is a first. That is a first. That is a first. and yeah I mean AC Milan had a sort of a recognisable side actually there were a few familiar names in there yeah that's true a couple of former Arsenal players well didn't quite make it at Arsenal that's make it with Unis Moussa and Chukwesi of course Chukwesi yeah Rafa Leal as well who yeah sort of perpetually talked about as a kind of hypothetical Arsenal target yeah And then from the Arsenal side, I mean, the most striking thing, a pretty strong XI.

8:27You know, we're not used to pre-season starting and having this many players available. Yes. Yeah, it was not as strong as he could go, but still pretty strong. You know, Bakayo Saka, Declan Rice, David Raya, William Saliba, all starting. Kai Havertz. Kai Havertz as well. back in the groove after spending a lot of time in the gym. Ethan Winery, I think, was probably the most interesting player from an Arsenal perspective in that first half. He was certainly the one that we were talking about most as that first half went on. First, I think we all noted that there was a little bit of a physical change with him, which is entirely normal.

9:09He's only just gone 18, really, so you're still growing and still filling out. But he looks like he's added an inch or two to his height, and that makes a little bit of a difference. And certainly, I'm not going to say he's bulked up, but I just think he has matured a bit physically, and you could see that last night. Yeah. I think I've added an inch or two to my waist while I've been here. The food is spectacular. But I agree, Ethan and Harry looks. He was already quite a sort of – it can sometimes be an unflattering word, this, and I don't mean it that way, but he had always quite a stocky build.

9:45Yeah. And I think that's even more the case now. He looks a little bit taller, a little bit broader. He's got a brand new squad number as well, 22. 22, yeah. And he played in that more central role. You know, we've been hearing, we've been reading that that's kind of where Arsenal see him for next season. I think the signing of Nani Madueke pretty much confirms that. Yeah. And he played in that Martin Odegaard position, didn't he, on the right-hand side of the central trio and was, I thought, the best player on the pitch in that first half. There were a couple of sensational moments. One, right on the touchline in front of us, a little step over and shimmy and left full-back for dead.

10:30And then not long afterwards, a little moment where he received the ball, flicked it up with his left foot and hit a volley, which the keeper was kind of scrambling across the line to save. Yeah. They lit up that first 45 minutes. No, I agree. I agree. And I think it is really interesting to think about, you know, where he fits. And people are really excited about his potential and what he can bring to this team. At the same time, people are really excited about transfers and who else might be coming in. And we've heard, for example, about Eberachese and Arsenal's reported interest in him. But to you, does it make any sense that we would bring in somebody like Eze when we have to, if we're being serious about Weneri's development, make a pathway for him?

11:24As Mikel Arteta said he did last season with the departure of Fabio Vieira, that was with Weneri in mind. I've said it on this podcast, and I'm sure we've talked about it as well, that Eze is a really good player, a really fun player. You could see what he could bring to Arsenal if he arrived. But is there an incompatibility between him at 27 years of age and Ethan Winery at 18 years of age if you want to give Winery those minutes? Yeah, it's a tricky one for me because I love Eze so much as a player. And I think probably for the last few summers I've been saying I'd love him to come to Arsenal.

12:05But I think you're right. I mean, if you look at the timing in terms of when that SA story was kind of reported and we were seemingly in talks with the player, the timing, there's a lot of overlap there with when Ethan's contract had a little bit of uncertainty over it. That's now very much on the way to resolution. I mean, it's sort of just pending an announcement at this point in time. so whether there's a relationship between those two things I think is an interesting question I mean if you were going to advocate for Eze you would say well Ethan's a guy who can play he can play on the right wing but he's probably at his best on the on the right side of that central trio Eze you'd say well he's probably on the other half of the pitch you know he's a potentially a left winger or maybe a left eight.

13:02But you look at that left eight position, you've got Declan Rice in there, you've got Mikel Moreno in there, you've got potentially Kai Havertz in there. Yeah. It might be a bit congested. For sure. For sure. And the talk of Eze on the left, like I know he can do it. I know he has played there. I just don't think that's where he's at his best personally. So, yeah, not to sort of piss on anyone's Eze-flavoured chips this morning, but, you know, I think if Wuneri has committed to a new deal and if the role that they envisage for him is depth, cover, competition for Martin Odegaard in that position, because I think the skill set that he has, it's getting him towards the edge of the box on his left foot in positions where he can hit the ball.

13:52And I think we've talked before about what a great ball striker he is in this squad. There are few players who really hit the ball as hard and as well as he does. So I think, you know, in the clamor for more signings, maybe down the line, if we've got five, six, seven, eight goals from Ethan Warneri before the turn of the year, then maybe that dies down a bit. But I do understand why people are perhaps focusing on as a potential solution for the left-hand side a bit. And there was discussion and debate last night about what that might look like. Gabriel Martinelli started the game. Leandro Trossard came on.

14:34I think based on what we saw from those two players, and again, look, it's preseason. There's a long way to go. These guys have got to get fit. If you're picking a player to start against Man United on the opening day of the season, for me it would be leandro trossard at this stage trossard is probably in inverted commas the most expendable because of his age and the contract situation so yeah we've gone a little bit off piste here you know in relation to um no to last night but but do you see that area that left hand side that left wing as the the sort of last piece of the the the puzzle in terms of increasing the quality.

15:13I don't think we have an issue with numbers. I think we maybe just have a slight issue with quality. Yeah, I think Arsenal have done really well to address the depth of the squad. Especially with Mascara on his way, adding another defender. You look at that central midfield, I mentioned the names for left eight. You look at Zubimendi and Norgard at the base. you've got plenty of options there Jokeres obviously adds something up top when that goes through but I think a lot of people do look at that left wing and think is that an area of the starting XI where there is still just that room for improvement it feels a little bit unfair really to kind of criticise a player in their first appearance of pre-season or you know first public appearance But I did think Gabby Martinelli, in terms of the court of public opinion, is probably someone who needs a pretty good pre-season.

16:19And I don't think in that context he'll be particularly pleased with his performance last night. Sure. Trossard, I agree, was probably the better of the two. But there is a degree of uncertainty over his future. As far as we know, that contract remains unsigned. He's at an age where a sale is kind of logical, verging upon sensible, I think, if it's there for Arsenal. So, yeah, I think that is kind of the outstanding position, potentially. But to bring it back to Eze, do I believe that Eze fits Mikel Arteta's vision of what that left wing position looks like? I'm not sure I do. Yeah, well look, that will all play out, I guess, over the rest of the transfer window.

17:11Before we talk a bit more about the game, I think maybe, well this is related to the game, but there were a couple of players missing last night, Jurian Timber and Gabriel, who weren't on the bench. They're with the squad out here, they're doing their training, and they're recovering from surgery. Gabriel is hamstring, Timber his ankle, and Arteta was asked about them in his press conference last night, and sort of said, yeah, they're getting there. They're on the way. But still a bit too soon for them. So he started with Ricardo Calafiori in the left centre-back position, brought on Jakub Kivior.

17:43I mean, it's feasible slash conceivable that, you know, if we're going to be mindful of recovery times for Gabriel and for Timber, that left centre-back position starting the season and some very important games at the start of the season. The Emirates Cup, for example. Yeah. I mean, there is a... Silverware on the line. We already won a trophy last night. That's true, actually. Yeah, the tripe and... Pressures off Arteta. ...igality cup or something it was called. Yeah. No, I know what you're saying. I mean, I think Gabriel was on course maybe to be involved last night and had a, I don't even want to say the word setback, you know, but like a sort of precautionary.

18:32Yeah. We'll take our time with him. But I find that, I found myself wondering last night, who is Gabriel's immediate deputy? You know, is it Jakob Kibior who came in at the end of last season and did really well for those last couple of months? or is it Picardo Calafuri who was bought for over£40 million last summer and you know played as a centre-back with his former club and plays there internationally with Italy you know again hard to draw comparisons I thought Kivio actually did really well when he came on got a nice assist lovely ball to the back post really sort of beautiful clip pass for Pukai Saka so yeah I think that's a really interesting one and And yeah, where, I mean, with Myles Lewis-Skelly kind of nailing down the left-back spot and Gabriel obviously first choice alongside Saliba, I am a bit curious about Calafiore's role in the squad.

19:35I know there'll be plenty of game time for him, but is it going to be his left-back? Is it going to be his centre-back? Yeah. What does it mean for Kivio? Yeah. He's another one, by the way, who looked a bit more buff, if that's the way of putting it. He looks like he's... They've all been on the protein shakes. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, let's say, I mean, I think Gabriel, from the interview we did with him the other day, he kind of suggested he thinks he'll be ready for the start of the season. If he's not for any reason, who are you picking in that spot? Well, maybe pre-season tells us. I have to say I'm pretty comfortable with either of them.

20:17I think they're both good options. Maybe there's a little more chaos to Calafuri in that left centre-back position. There are games, I think, where I... I suppose this is what you want as a manager. There are games where maybe we're going to dominate possession, a team we're going to sit in deep, that you think Calafuri could be a great option. Maybe when we're a bit more on the back foot, as a pure defender, perhaps I'm a little more comfortable with Kivio. Sure. Well, we'll see. Christian Norgard, our first view of him last night. I mean, solid, not spectacular, but pretty much exactly what you'd expect from a player who's basically oven ready, 31, loads of experience, slotted in, look very, very comfortable.

21:05Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I did my post-match video and I don't think I really mentioned Norgard and scrolling through the comments this morning. And a lot of people were like, what about Norgard? Wasn't Norgard good? And my honest reaction is I didn't really notice him. And I guess that's fine. Like in that position, that's probably a good thing. And I kind of feel like, you know, he is a very mature, experienced player. and I'm not sure my views on his performances are going to oscillate massively over the course of the season. I think he's probably always going to be fine and that's fine. Yes, yeah.

21:47You know? Yeah. Sort of what he's been bought for. Exactly, I think that's exactly right, you know? Yeah, so he did well enough and then he was replaced at half-time by another new arrival in Martin Zubimendi. Martin Zubimendi. I did an instant reaction with Elliot, and I think I said, yeah, he was solid, not spectacular. And I've seen some people say, hey, he was really good.

22:16What did you make of his performance? I mean, I think you have to put it in the context as well of the changes. There were five changes at halftime. He'd bring on Kepa, Miles, Lewis Skelly came on. Kibior. Kibior came on. Odegaard. Trossard. Yeah. But then with about 25 minutes to go, and we'll get to the young guys who came on, you know, there were a number of really, really young players brought on, which is not always easy for a team to deal with. It didn't destabilize Arsenal at all. So maybe the thing about Zubimendi is, where I maybe should have given him a bit more credit, is being that kind of gel, you know, between the front section, which had a bit more experience, and you've got a right centre-back who's 15 years of age.

23:08You've got Josh Nichols, who's, what, 18? 18. A right back. You've got Max Dowman, who's 15 on the right-hand side. That's very, very young and very inexperienced. I'm not saying these guys are afraid or anything like that, but that is a lot of inexperience. So maybe Zubimendi more or less holding all of that together is where I should have given him a bit more credit. Yeah, and he's not 22, 23, he's 26. He's an experienced player himself. But I do think that's a really interesting kind of facet of the season in that Arsenal have lost two number sixes, Thomas Partey and Jorginho have both gone.

23:51And that position in Arteta's team is the fulcrum, right? Or the pivot, as I would call them, in Spain. It's kind of the funnel for so much of what we do. So having two brand new players in there, kind of a, it's almost like the team having a brain transplant. You know what I mean? It's like we've taken all that experience and know-how out and we've got two new guys who have to learn and adapt to that role. And I think Artes is probably delighted he got them both so early in pre-season. So yeah, Yeah, I think Zubimendi did well when you consider that. I mean, he's obviously experienced, but he's learning a lot.

24:33Think of Declan Rice when he came from West Ham and he spoke very openly about the amount of information he was being asked to take on board. Yeah. I'm sure it's the same for Martin Zubimendi, but I think his capacity to take on that information is part of why Arsenal wanted to sign him. Yeah, Mikel Arteta, you can see maybe some of Mikel Arteta in both of the central midfielders or the deep-lying midfielders that we signed this season. Electric pace. Yeah, that's it. You said, and you said this the other night, he's bigger than you think, Martin Zubermendi. He is. I'd always sort of looked at him and gone, he's a bit 5 '8", maybe.

25:15Yeah, yeah. But he's a bit bigger than that. I think so. I mean, we could Google it, Andrew. I don't know how tall he is. It's more fun to guess, though. Yeah, sure. But yeah, somebody said that to me. oh no, you know, when you meet him, he's a bit bigger than you expect. And I saw him stood next to Mikel Moreno the other night, who is a pretty big guy. He's what, 6 '2"? Yeah, he's probably 6 '2", I would say. And Zubimendi, he's not dwarfed by him in any respect. You know, he's a few inches shorter, but he's not a short player per se. So yeah, I think maybe there was a bit of kind of stereotyping on my part about like diminutive Spanish midfielders.

25:56But, yeah, he doesn't mind the physical side. And I think his use of the ball is really good. I mean, even last night, you did see a couple of forward passes between the lines, finding the centre forward, finding... Trossard a couple of times, I think, as well. Yeah. So he had that eye and he had the execution. And you'd like to think that as he gets more adapted, acclimatised, and when he plays with our real runners as well, when he's got the likes of Saka and Martinelli and Madueke and... Yacarez. Maybe Yacarez as well. He'll have more targets, won't he? So, yeah, it was a decent start for him, for sure.

26:41The two 15-year-olds were obviously a really interesting aspect of this. And contextual pre-season, you know, I'm not going to say it was low energy, but it's hot here. That's the other thing. It is very hot and it's very humid. Yeah. And to run around for 90 minutes. I'm glad I don't have to run around for 90 minutes. I look like I have, even if I've just been sitting down. It's that hot. Can we, by the way, give a – he'll never hear this, but because we were playing AC Milan, there was a journalist there from Gazetta della Sport. Oh, yeah. suit, tie, immaculate. Andrew Allen would have been so impressed with this man.

27:26He made Andrew Allen look untidy, I would say. My goodness. I mean, that is some claim, but he was in the press box as well. He put us all to shame, really. He certainly did. We're sitting there in our shorts and T-shirts, and this guy's in the full suit. But the point about it being hot and difficult to play in, I think, is a valid one. the point I was making was about the two 15 year olds who came on so Marley Salmon is probably the more or the lesser known name of the two and Max Downey being the other one I thought it was funny you know Salmon came on I can't remember who was playing up front for AC Milan but but it was a man it was a grown-up it was a grown-up man an adult man and it's not that he was necessarily taller than Salmon, but you could see the physical difference between the two in terms of, you know, just their size, their physical size, the girth, exactly.

28:23It wasn't quite as apparent with Max Downman, who is, he seems like a big lad for 15 and well-built. He's pretty physically developed. I mean, it's always a slightly odd conversation, isn't it, talking about these young footballers and their physical development. But Max, he looks maybe the readier of the two, you would say. Yeah, I mean, but you have to have that conversation because if you are going to ask them to play, you're going to ask them to play against grown men. And, you know, that physical aspect is certainly a consideration. But we saw some things from Max Downman last night. The fans really enjoyed a few of the moments that he put together.

29:00He's very adventurous, very confident. You can see he's so confident when he's in possession and on the ball. smart you can see the he sees what's going on and to to even if it is a preseason game to come on and just not look out of place at all at that tender age is a really really notable thing yeah I always think back to when I saw Cesc Fabregas play at 15 I saw him play against Rotherham I think in the League Cup at Highbury. That's right. And he was tidy. You know, he was able to sort of like keep the ball moving and do simple things well. Yeah. But he wasn't the Cesc Fabregas, of course, that we would see even 12 months after that in terms of his, I suppose, his stature and his confidence on the pitch.

29:58Yeah. And it was striking with Max the degree to which he was kind of willing to take responsibility and take people on, the fearlessness with which he played. You can see why he's made such a big impression at Arsenal. Yes. And in first-team training as well. But to come back to Marley Salmon, you've got to remember he's going in at centre-half. I mean, the physical demands of that position are very different. And players tend to come through or make themselves known maybe slightly later in the defensive part of the pitch. So I think he also deserves massive credit. And listen, I think Josh Nichols had a really good cameo as well.

30:44Yeah, he did. Made one great tackle on the edge of the box. Left the AC Milan guy down. He had a good preseason last year as well. Obviously, you know, didn't quite make the impression that Myles or Ethan did. and I have to say he's 18 years old I don't know if he'll be an Arsenal player he might go the route of an Aidan Heaven say and join a club lower down the league you know where he might get some first team football but I think he's going to have a really good career whatever happens I think he's acquitted himself really well whenever he's been called upon so yeah curious to see what this season holds for him too and there were more changes I think Rhys Nelson came on for Kai Havertz.

31:29Seven hail-enders on the pitch for the 90 minutes. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty impressive, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, maybe as pre-season goes on, the chances for those young players will become a bit more limited as Mikel Arteta sort of intensifies the first-team readiness. Yeah, true. But, you know, fair play to them. They did well. There was a penalty shootout at the end of the game as well. Yeah. We won 1-0, but there was a pre-arranged penalty shootout. Yeah. I think I had a question about it. It wasn't, I mean, it wasn't quite the England women's penalty shootout from the other day, but it wasn't the most, the goalkeepers did well.

32:13That's a nicer way of framing it. That is. Kepa Ariza Balaga saved three penalties, I think. Yeah, I think three of eight. That's pretty good. Yeah, I mean, it was an unusual sort of penalty-taking order from Arsenal. We were wondering why Leandro Trossard wasn't taking one. And we'd sort of, oh, maybe he's taking the fifth one to get all the glory, you know, a la Ronaldo. But it was Jakub Kivir actually who stepped up to take the fifth penalty, which was saved. I think Trossard was seventh behind Max Dowman, potentially. I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe he had a knock, maybe he had a bit of cramp.

32:48Could have been. Don't know. You know, maybe he just wasn't feeling it. He did walk up relatively slowly and looked a little bit tender. So injured or grumpy would be my guess. Maybe a bit of both with Leandro Trossard. Was it last season Arteta called him a little bit grumpy in a press conference? So, yeah, we know that he's an emotional character. Yeah. But, yeah, listen, Kepa did really well. I think as a keeper, if you save three, you kind of think you're going to be on the winning team. Yes. You know, maybe he had a point all those years ago when he insisted on staying on for the penalty shootout.

33:30He knows what he's doing. He does. Are we going to see it, Andrew? Finally, the Mikel Arteta goalkeeper substitution when we're in a knockout competition and we get to spot kicks. Maybe. Maybe. David Raya refusing to come off. Yeah, perhaps so. But no, I mean, big credit to Max Dowman, who took his penalty well and scored. Josh Nicholls scored as well. Josh Nicholls scored as well. And, you know, I gather Marley Salmon was a bit disappointed. He missed the final kick for Arsenal. Put it over the bar, yeah. Put it over the bar, but I think you've got to give the lad a break. 15-year-old set in the half.

34:11I think he was about the eighth taker for Arsenal. He was the last one, I think, before the goalkeepers would have taken one, I think. It was getting that way. It felt like it was, with all due respect, never going to end. That penalty shootout. It's really hard, isn't it? Is the motivation, oh, we get to practice this scenario that we never normally do, or is it ensures we give the fans the sight of the ball going in the net a few times? I don't know. I don't know quite what it is, but I could be misremembering this, but I think it is something that Mikel Arteta has wanted to do and in one of the pre-season games last year...

34:52I think United declined. No, was it? Was it United? I saw a penalty shootout against Manchester United in New York. I think that was the year before. The year before. One team anyway definitely declined and didn't want anything to do with it. I'm told, I mean we'll see because sometimes these things are negotiated quite late in the day but I'm told I don't think there's currently one planned for Sunday when we face Newcastle. So we can assume they've bottled it.

35:24But yeah, we'll see. So yeah, I mean, look, for me, it's a bit of entertainment. I think the crowd really did enjoy it. Like it was a bit flat, you know, the game wasn't brilliant. No. So for that to sort of happen at the end, people got into it. By the time the AC Milan players were coming up, a lot of the Arsa fans were giving the old woo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought we might see Gunnasaurus take one, the way it was going. Well, listen, Gunnasaurus was down below us. They were doing some pregame or halftime stuff where they have these sort of things that they shoot the T-shirts into the crowd with.

36:06Oh, yeah. Like, you know, the one that killed Ned Flanders' wife? Yeah. simpsons yeah they had those gunasaurus had a little dysfunction with his it kind of sort of yeah i i was worried it was going to turn into like a flamethrower because clearly there was something wrong with it the blunderbuss misfired and uh fortunately i you know nobody was harmed yeah no dinosaurs were harmed in the making of this friendly yes um but yeah that that was that And then you went off and recorded a pod with Elliot. Did you go to Michael Arteta's press conference? I did. I sat in the press conference. It was fairly routine.

36:45You, I believe, went to the Mick Zone to speak to Declan Rice. Declan Rice, yeah. Article should be out at some point today. Lunchtime UK. Athletic and a few other places. It's always good to talk to Declan. He's a very eloquent footballer and very open and honest. And I think someone who approaches those kind of media obligations with the spirit of opportunity, like the chance to say a few things, say things that he wants to say. Yeah. And he had a bit to say this time. So it was not what he said, but top level topics or do we have to wait for the article? I think best to wait because I don't want to let other journalists down who were part of the conversation as well.

37:40But you can guess some of the themes about pre-season and where he's at and what he's looking forward to. But yeah, it was a good chat. And what else? We did that. Yeah, Mikel, I've just watched his press conference back this morning because I was down with Declan Rice. He did the right thing, really. there was a bit of questions about Max and stuff. And I thought he, and I think this kind of incumbent on everybody to sort of diffuse the hype where we can. Like to a degree it's inevitable. Of course. But we also have to recognize he's still only 15 years old. Yeah. And, you know, Mikel, he shared the love, didn't he?

38:24Among the academy. Yeah, of course. You know, you don't really want a manager sitting there going, well, I'm really not into that performance from this 15-year-old boy. You know, tough love. It's not that, you know. He said, you know, what they're doing is remarkable. No, it's true. And the fact that he's used them is evidence that it is kind of remarkable as well, isn't it? Yeah. Because there is that slightly grey area about like, are they too young to expose to this level of, look, you play for Arsenal's first team. there is scrutiny of course right or wrong and often wrong but that's the world we live in once you're there people are going to start talking about you but I think you know you're right that he's 16 in December and if we see him in the first team this season that will be an amazing thing even for two 15 year olds to be playing under 21s football which they might do quite a bit of is significant and worth taking note of.

39:27Well, you know, Max, I can't remember about Marley right now, but Max wasn't even eligible to play for the under-21s last year. He was too young. So that's how early it is for him. But yeah, listen, it's one of the great things about pre-season that we catch a glimpse of these players who, you know, we might not have seen before. And I bet they loved it. I bet they loved the opportunity. What a chance. I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll take a little break here. Maybe we'll have some more reflections on what's been going on on the tour so far. We'll find a couple of questions from our Discord, and we'll do that in part two right after this.

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42:14Welcome back to the Arsecast Extra. This is part two of the show where we answer the questions that you send to us, this time only on our Discord, which you get access to if you're an Arseblog member on Patreon. Patreon.com forward slash Arseblog. Timezones being what they were. I forgot completely to put it on Blue Sky. Nice. But, you know, when we get back to, I was going to say the real world. Yeah. Because this feels like the surreal world. Yeah. we'll get back to what we normally do. Okay. But there you go. So look, let me ask you this one. These are some quotes maybe that emerged a little bit this week.

42:50I think they were from, you did a piece in The Athletic and maybe some of the others did as well. This comes from, I think it's, oh God, it didn't get the name. I've got to give the person credit. Alessandra Hedgeblog says, what do you think of Arteta's comments about removing the tier structure? I wasn't even aware we had one. He said in his comments it's been holding us back and limiting our squad depth, but that makes it sound like it was something put on him and not something he created. I find it a very strange thing. Were you aware of this? Was it common knowledge? Do you think we'll see more rotation now?

43:30Am I thinking too hard about this? It was a good question, actually. So after McHale's press conference on Monday, we had a little bit more time with him in a slightly more relaxed setting. And Jordan Davis of The Sun asked him about these tier structures in the squad, which is something he's mentioned before. You may remember last season, he was saying, you know, it's a problem if you've got five left backs and they all consider themselves tier one. and I think we were all collectively like what's tier one? and then this summer in some of their communications and I think internally they've described Martin Zubemendi as a tier one signing I think Noni Madueke as well which from the state of my replies on social media I don't think people were thrilled with but if you spend£50 million on an England international, you're probably going to classify them as Tier 1.

44:37And to be fair, Tier 1, so from Mikel's explanation, certainly until now, the squad has been categorised into at least three tiers. And Tier 1 just means players with the potential to be starters. Doesn't necessarily mean they're the first name on the team sheet. Sure. You know, so I would imagine going into next season, for example, Saka, Martinelli, Madueke, probably Trossard as well, may all sit in that tier one, you know, because relative, I mean, Saka probably deserves his own tier on the top. Tier 0.5. but you know um so arteta kind of explained this and said uh that's been the way we've done it previously presumably privately among the coaching staff and the sporting director i doubt very much um in a dressing room they're like i can tier three go and sit on that side please you will have lunch together tier three um but then he kind of said i'm getting rid of it you know um because it's what we want is a and i'm paraphrasing here but basically is a a broader deeper squad that gives us more opportunity to rotate yeah i mean i think you everyone kind of understands that that certain players have got a maybe a slightly different stature or yeah a better chance of starting the big games if you like but if if the delineation between those is too great then you end up in situations like we have with michael arteta in the past where i mean maybe this is too simplistic a way to put it but he he relies very heavily on tier one and he feels the gap between tier one and tier two or tier three whatever it is is too big for him to have faith in those players and the knock-on effects of that are physical there's fatigue all of those things so if you have more tier one options or if you are more inclined to trust your tier two options yeah then your squad becomes bigger and deeper and over the course of what could be 60 65 70 games next season you've got to use that squad i mean this is something we've talked about i think at length before is the idea that if you are going to invest in a squad if you are going to make it deep if you do have two players for every position then you've got to use those players.

47:07That's true. That's true. But, you know, you're absolutely right. It's no good having 11 Tier 1s. And the centre-forward position is a great example. I mean, I've got no doubt in my mind that Miklanseta views Kai Havertz as a Tier 1 player. Yeah. And his selection record shows you that. Victor Jokeres is probably going to be a Tier 1 career as well. So there's lots of areas of the pitch where I think we genuinely do have that potential to kind of mix it up. And I mean, this is something that Declan Rice touched on and that Mikel Arteta has touched on and Martin Zubemendi and Mikel Marino touched on.

47:50Everyone is aware of the way in which injuries, fatigue, the physical demands of the season impacted us last year. and at times I think Mikel felt like he was picking the team with one hand tied behind his back you know there were half a dozen players who had to play and I think what he hopes moving forward is that there's going to be a bit more flexibility so I don't know whether you know whether the tier system stays in place and a bunch of players get upgraded or you know tier one and tier two get Fuller and Tier 3 kind of disappears, I don't know, or whether he just views it more in some ways you hope he views it more as just like kind of a flatter, broader group with a wider pool, let's say, a wider pool of pickable players Of course, that's exactly it So it's up to him then to pick those players as and when the need requires or you know, the games dictate to some extent what kind of team selection you can make, you know?

49:00Totally. I had a question from Duran for me who said, question to James, will you be following the team to Hong Kong unlike Andrew who famously hates Spurs? Is that why you're not going to Hong Kong? Yeah. Just don't want to be anywhere near them? Don't want to go anywhere near Spurs. Don't want to watch, never want to watch Spurs. Yeah. Fair enough. I'm sure I'm missing out on an incredible place and an incredible city. and similarly spectacularly futuristic views and an environment. I think that's probably something I should experience. But if it had been any other team, I probably would have gone.

49:40But because it's Spurs, they can absolutely go fuck themselves. Yeah, I mean, I am contractually obliged to watch Spurs that day. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. That's all right. I mean, hopefully we beat them and that will be a pleasure. But looking forward to Hong Kong. I will be there. so hopefully see some of you there here is a question from master jombury who says what do you make of arteta's insistence that we're short of numbers where specifically do you think he means that and does this imply that we're going to try and sign someone even if there are no outgoings um i'm just going to see if i can dig up that quote that was from his press conference the other day yes um and he said said james uh trying to be as quick as he can uh here we go james nicholas in the athletic i found found the boy um there's a still long still a long time in the window he said on monday and we are seeking still in terms of numbers we are short and we have to improve the depth and quality of the squad we are constantly looking in the market i think it's such an interesting comment to make publicly in the knowledge that you know those comments came um after we had more or less tied up the deal for christian mascara which we believe the announcement there is is imminent and he's come out here to Singapore, right?

51:18Victor Jokeres has been a breakthrough this week. Is he including those players? What do you think? Is that a reference to those two or do you think he's looking beyond even that? It sounds to me like he's looking beyond that because I'm pretty sure Mikel Arteta is more up to date on those situations than we might have been, which have played out behind the scenes a little bit. I think it's fascinating because I don't really see an issue with numbers. I think were probably too big. The squad is too big. There are some players who need to go. You know, Zinchenko started last night. I said to you, like, is this a shop window selection?

51:56I don't know how many people would be going, ooh, look, Zinchenko in the wild. We must buy him now that he's playing a preseason game for Arsenal. But, you know, there are players like Zinchenko, like Reece Nelson, like guys who've been on the bench, Albert Sambi-Laconga, who was on the bench last night, didn't get on. Fabio Vieira, who I guess will return to London after his holidays. Karl Haynes back home as well. So there isn't an issue with numbers. I think the key word there is maybe quality. And again, I come back to that left-hand side as the area where I think if they are going to make a move, then it will be there.

52:41To me, it's not an issue of numbers. I think our numbers are pretty much fine. Once we get Mosquera and Jokeres done and over the line, I think you can make a case that that is a squad that's big enough, certainly, to provide the depth that we just spoke about. Is the quality there in every single position? In most of them, I would say yes, it is. But again, we come back to that left-hand side. is that is there scope for Nani Madweke to play there and do something a little bit different? Maybe. Or, you know, is there a market opportunity that they're thinking of or looking at or open to that they're willing to hold off on?

53:26Because I think when it comes right down to it, if we're going to do that, one of Trossard or Martinelli has to go to make room for that player. So, yeah, that was going to be my, you know, my question coming back to the final part there. Do you think Mouskara and Jokeres, we think, are going to happen? Do you think other additions beyond that will require a sale of some kind? Yeah, I just don't know where else we would be looking. You know, because we have the right-hand side. Saka, Madweke, Stryker, Havertz, Jokeres. as number six you've got Zubimendi you've got Norgard and you can even play Declan Rice there because you've got a plethora of options at left eight which include Mikel Marino Declan Rice Kai Havertz as we've said that flexibility and versatility might be part of the the tier discussion that we've just had as well players who aren't pigeonholed necessarily in one position who can provide depth in that way.

54:28Left back, you've got Lewis Scully, Kibior, Calafuri. Left center back, Gabriel, Calafuri, Kibior. Moscairo provides that other cover. Ben White, Jury and Timber. So it's there. So I don't really see where there could be another signing beyond the left-hand side where that extra bit of quality might be the thing that they're looking at. If they're grading each position, And, you know, maybe that's the one where if the right player is out there, they would be willing to pull the trigger. Yeah, I think I like a lot about both Gabriel Martinelli and Leandro Trossard. Like, I'm not one of these people who thinks they're not good enough per se.

55:17But I do see that if you're looking for fine, like marginal areas for improvement, that would be a position you might focus on. Yeah, I think there are going to have to be sales. I think Arsenal have spent a lot of money. The squad's quite big. They need to think about the registration as well for Premier League and Champions League. They don't want a situation where they're having to leave one person out potentially. and be paying them to not be involved. So there's lots of things to consider. So, yeah. Yeah. But I've often said, I think I say every year, there's kind of two transfer windows.

56:00I mean, this year there literally were two, but there's kind of the June, July, your sort of planned business. And then second half of August almost is its own window, like reactive business. Yeah. Market opportunities. Sometimes you get an injury. You might have a situation that develops you don't expect. And I think Arsenal will retain some sort of flexibility or keep some powder dry or work on sale to give them that flexibility to ensure that if there is something to react to in that time, they can. Is that a spotlight maybe on Andrea Berta? and what he might bring to this transfer window. I think he's been given quite a bit of credit for the Yacarez thing and for most of the business that we've done has been done pretty quickly and efficiently.

56:58It's not just him. We know there's a whole team in recruitment and all that kind of stuff, but he's the guy, right? He is the main man. So is that maybe where he might fully stamp his influence on the transfer window between now and the end of August, that if that upgrade is out there or requires a bit of maneuvering his job as sporting director, which also includes the sales that we've talked about, by the way, you know, is that something that you think maybe he might be a little bit focused on? If the manager is open to that upgrade, if we want to call it that, or that change on the left-hand side, is that where he's got to really get down and dirty and get it done?

57:46Yeah, he might have to be creative, or it might be a situation where there's a bit of wheeling and dealing that has to go on. If the opportunity comes up, but you need to move somebody out, can you find a buyer? Can you make that happen? I often think, was it last summer or the summer before where somebody did come in for Leandro Trossard, a club in Saudi Arabia, but it was deadline day. And it wasn't viable really for Arsenal to take that offer or do that deal because they couldn't source a replacement adequately. So timing of these things is really important as well. Yeah. You know, that's no good to Arsenal, really, if that happens, unless they've got everything lined up to press the button on a replacement.

58:34Yeah. Well, let's see. OK, here's a question from Maxwell Young, who says, Is it just me who can't see the value of Marino in the squad? Considering we knew we wanted Zubimendi as well, and with the wider squad depth, was this a good allocation of funds? He's great on the day, but doesn't have a position and play, a playing style that suits our best 11. It's not just you, it's Elliot as well, obviously. Yeah. Who we were sat with last night. I enjoyed Marino's penalty last night, by the way. Oh, great penalty. Yeah, really good. And he gave a big wave to the crowd afterwards. I think enjoyed that.

59:12He's a good finisher. I think, you know, you could maybe have the argument about was it a good allocation of funds or did we overpay slightly for a player of his age in the final year of his contract. You know, there is that left eight debate. You know, Declan Rice is going to start a lot of games there. For sure. We've talked about Kai Havertz there. Is Marino, if we're talking about the tier system, you know, is he a good example of how you can use the full extent of your squad? Because I've made this point before, but I remember the game against Brentford last season away. Declan Rice couldn't play.

59:53Mikel Moreno was there. We won 3-1. And that's kind of exactly what you want a player like him for, for those games where there is a big absence or there is a big player missing. He slots in. He does a job. It's a 7 out of 10 performance. I mean, obviously, he scored some goals for us last season, was pressed into action in a very different way. But over the course of this season, when you're thinking about cup games or thinking about Champions League games, when you're thinking about not just how you manage your starting XI, but how you manage players in-game as well. There's probably something to be said for a player who, let's say we're winning a game relatively comfortably, you can take Declan Rice off at 70 minutes and you save him 25 minutes of competitive, intense football.

1:00:45And over the course of the season, that might be really, really beneficial to you, particularly when you get to the business end of the season, when you want these guys as fresh as possible. Absolutely. And I think Mikel Moreno has shown himself to be a really reliable option for Mikel Arteta in two positions. I do think that if we think back to last summer or the start of last season, we kind of envisaged him as one of the starting midfielders, potentially. You know, there was a lot of talk about, oh, Rice, Marino and Odegaard. And it never really came to pass, did it? Because he had those injuries in the beginning, bad shoulder injury, which obviously impacted his arrival.

1:01:30And then Thomas Partey started the season and to everybody's surprise, really, stayed fit. You know, so I think that had a slight knock-on effect on Marino. And actually, like, I think he's probably, you know, he's delighted to have Zubimendi here. But in a way, that's not great news for him because it sort of cements Declan Rice, I think, in that number eight. Then you've got Jokeres coming in. I'm really fascinated to see what that will mean for Kai Havertz. Will we see a bit more of him in midfield, potentially, which again could have a knock-on effect for Marino. Listen, I think he's a super reliable player, excellent presence in the dressing room, very popular, a great pro, smart.

1:02:22I don't think he's going to be a problem. I don't think he's the type to kick off. But do I think his minutes will be impacted this season? Yeah. Yeah, sure. I think he is going to play a more restricted role, you know, the big if everyone's fit. But, you know, I like him as a depth option, you know. I do like him as a player. If I could go back to last summer and do the left eight thing a little bit differently, that would be my preference. But, you know, there's no point really speculating about that now. So I think, you know, over the course of the season, he will play a role. He'll play a decent role, but he's not going to be, when everyone's a starting option for Arteta, I don't think.

1:03:16Not often, anyway. I think there will be games, obviously. Yeah, yeah. And I think, yeah, he might sit more in Tier 2 than Tier 1, to reference our previous conversation. But football's unpredictable and I think he's been hurt by the development of Declan Rice into this true sort of box-to-box midfielder, which some people always felt he would, but not everybody did. I'm not sure Mikel Arteta fully did. I'm not sure it was quite planned to be like this. but equally I understand why it's happened and it feels, as a manager, I can understand not wanting to kind of put the shackles on Declan Rice because he's such a force of nature.

1:04:06I've got a question here from Fletchats on Discord. Fletchats. And they say, is there an age limit to doing the Bain celebration? There was a lot of it around last night. There was. They were doing like these flex cams and kiss cams and stuff like that. And the camera would be on a lot of Arsenal fans doing that. Yeah. Oh, Mr. Mr. Land. I'm going to come to Arsenal. It's going out of gold. So I don't think if you feel like doing the Bane thing, do the Bane thing. You know, let's the world's fucked up enough. Let people have a bit of fun. I reckon. I think it's fine. I think it's definitely fine.

1:04:48And listen, I don't know if we were asked this directly, but what do you think on his potential arrival? Are we going to see him in Asia? I mean, I'm not as well informed on these kinds of things as you are. I did see somebody suggest that the medical was going to take place out here, but you've poo-pooed that. And it's going to obviously be in London. It depends how quickly things move. maybe Mikel Arteta would like to bring him out and get him settled in and meet the guys and just feel part of it, even if he doesn't play. Then you might argue, is it better for him just to sort of stay in London, sort some shit out, do a bit of training rather than take long flights to the other side of the world?

1:05:33I don't know. He's got a life to organise, hasn't he? He's moving country. He needs a home. He needs all those things. He needs a sofa. Yeah. Yeah, but Mosquera has flown out. They flew Califiori out last summer. That's right, yeah, yeah. I think if they, and this is, I have no information on this, but I think if the deal gets done in the next couple of days, I think they might try and get him out. But if it gets into, like, early next week, I mean, they fly home Friday. Yeah. You know what I mean? I sort of think at that point, is it worth flying someone 28 hours total to be here for a day? Probably not.

1:06:19No, probably not. But, yeah, let's see. Let's see. Let's see. Things might happen quickly. Okay, let's do this one just to sort of finish us off because we get this out to people. It is slightly shorter than normal. AFC Rai Pai says, I'd like you to give your guesses for the proposed add-ons to account for the 2.5 million in the Yuccares deal. That 2.5 million that was, you know, the issue, he says wrong answers only.

1:06:51Well, yeah, but Lisbon's thing was, Sporting's thing rather, was that they always wanted it to be easy, more realistic, shall we say. So maybe we should have offered them, you know, Arsenal players to be sent off or Arsenal penalties to be denied by VAR or something like that. That feels quite achievable for us. Yeah, we could easily do that. Red cards. Probably a bit more specific to Yaka-Rez himself. You know, one appearance, 2.5 million. Second appearance, 2.5 million. £50 ,000 for every Bain celebration. Something like that. Well, hopefully, you know, we pay over the odds for that. We get a lot of Bain celebrations.

1:07:32I think we'll all be very happy. Yeah, as long as they're not counting everyone in the crowd, then that's fine. We're happy to pay. Yeah. Yeah, listen, add-ons, 90 % of the time, if you're paying them, it's because you're happy to pay them because something good's happened. Yes. You know? Yeah. I always think that people say, oh, it's an initial fee. It could be up to this. And sometimes people are like, oh, that sounds a bit steep. But I always think that will be connected to that player doing well, Arsenal doing well. It's very – and that will come with prize money, with revenue. Sure. It's quite rare, I think, that you'll begrudgingly make those payments.

1:08:11Yeah, of course. The big achievements, I suppose, are written into a lot of these deals, winning the title or winning the Champions League, which is not impossible, but for a club like Sporting, if they want to maximize the income, they're going to go, you could do it, but you haven't done it. So that might make our life a bit more difficult. So I guess they're looking for more assurance in that regard. Anyway, it does seem as if all the I's have been dotted and T's have been crossed until such time as we get official coverage. Masks have been worn. Yeah, listen, and actually, like, if you look at the numbers and the add-ons and everything, I think in this market, Arsenal actually got themselves a pretty good deal on Jokoresh.

1:09:06I'm just having a look now to sort of check the figures. I don't want to misquote. But in Sterling, you're looking at about$55 million as an upfront fee. About$8.5 million in potential add-ons. I think I said on here before, it's not much more than we paid for Lacazette, Aubameyang. It's kind of in that range. I think it's, you know, is it less than what we paid for Kai Havertz? potentially. Yes, I think it is, yeah. So for a player with that goal-scoring record, I know he's a little bit older, 27. Yeah. But I think it's a really good price. And he's a, you know, I know people have got their questions about the Portuguese league and look, it'll all come out in the wash.

1:09:52He'll either be a success or he won't. But, you know, he's a big, strong, fast, physical, goal-scoring bastard. And that's kind of what we've needed. And who's gone to war to come to Arsenal. Yeah. And I don't think that... I think that made a big impression on the decision makers of the club. Well, let's hope it gets done over the coming days while we're here. We play Newcastle on Sunday, of course, and we'll be going to that. Sunday lunchtime, European time. Yes. Sunday evening here. I don't know what time it is in the rest of the world. I don't know what we'll do about podcasts next week. We'll figure out something.

1:10:35Yeah, maybe I'm back in Dublin on Tuesday, so we'll chat about it offline and see if we can line up something because you're going to be in Hong Kong. Be in Hong Kong, yeah. If it's difficult, I might see if I can get somebody else to jump on on Tuesday. One of your other tier ones, I guess. One of the other tier ones. They're all tier ones. I think all of you is tier one. Come on, mate. You're tier 0.5, Jax. I'm Saka. You're Saka. You're Bakaya Saka. So look, we're going to leave it there. We're going to, I think, probably explore this incredible city a little bit more, get some more incredible food.

1:11:12And like I said, we'll have a podcast for you next week. Thank you to all you guys, as always, for being here and listening. If you see us out and about in Singapore, please do come and say hello. It's always great to meet everybody. But for now, take it easy and we will catch you on the next one. Bye-bye.

1:11:48I think Arsenal are going to win the Premier League. And there you are. For more hot takes like that, watch or listen to Football Weekly wherever you get your podcasts.