Arsecast Extra Episode 686 - 16.03.2026

0:00This podcast is brought to you by Calafiore.

0:30comes back and it's missed. Inside to Ezzet. Ezzet sliding it in. Havertz goes down. The referee waves it away.

0:41Andrew Allen: And the question will be, why did Havertz go down? He was in. And he goes from Everton. Raya had a flash for Neil towards goal. And on the turn is kept out by Raya. Beto with the effort. And standing saves. Zaka feeds it into Rice. Oh, what effort! Ezzet, but it's wide. Canafiore off for Incafier and Arsenal turn to their teenage talent Martinelli Incafier leaves it Esser goes for the feet ships it on Darman can't hit it down so a few worries here for Arsenal Arsenal Arsenal Arsenal Arsenal Arsenal

1:32Dallman swings it in, that's not a bad ball, and Schoen!

1:40Finally, in the title race, Victor Jocheres! Goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal, goal! For this comes Victor Jocheres! a corner is all that remains of this football match first contact made by an Arsenal player so it will be an Everton corner

2:03Andrew Allen: Pickford is going to go forward Jordan Pickford on his 350th appearance for Everton is making his way into the penalty area to give in everything Everton are ready to throw the kitchen sink here James Garner takes Pickford still competing for it it's taken away here at pace by Dalman and Dalman is all alone corner kick James Skyler to take on the right hand side Arsenal leading 1-0 on 5-1 Jokeres wins the header Lafone in the first pass he sees the first pass in the beginning of the game Arsenal wants to win Doorman look at Doorman he's alone he's alone he's alone he's alone he's alone he's alone he's alone he's alone he's alone he's alone he's alone gol gol gol gol gol gol gol gol The goal is to win the match for the final match!

2:57Andrew Allen: Incredible! This is his kingdom! This is his magic moment! These are after-school points! Teenage kids! He was well hit the first spot, Viktor Kiyokérez, and he's going to be able to meet Duban, Duban who is passing, Duban who will raise his head, who will dive! Duban is left, Duban is left! Duban is left to the end of the month! To go to the second game of Gunners! The baby Gunners Oh Dalman Oh Dalman Oh Max Dalman And here's Dalman With an open goal Dalman Surely the youngster Is going to become The youngest Dreyarch goal scorer Well that Is one of the moments Of the season Perhaps The moment Of the season For Max Dalman A superstar The future, you have to say, but his contribution today has been momentous.

3:58Andrew Allen: What a moment for him. It's then Martin Lilley trying to clear it away. Oh, this is going to be trouble. Talman on the counter-attack. He's going to run it in. He can savor these moments. He can enjoy it. His first ever Arsenal goal wins the game for sure. As Arsenal say to Manchester City, catch us if you can. This is Arsecast Extra.

4:52oh Gilbert Gottfried Gilbert Gottfried I was thinking about that one and then and then I said yeah I'm going to play it a bit later but I'm sure people will have heard the commentary on the Max Dowman goal from the dude is it Andres Cantor is that his name the guy who sings oh yes and he sang sort of London Calling Dowman Calling and like it sort of scans with Goodly Morning as well but I couldn't quite get around to making a Goodly Morning version of London Calling by The Clash. You know, I didn't want to upset the Clash fans because they're punk and, you know, we'd be belittling that very classic song with our trite catchphrase.

5:31But, you know, it would have worked. It would have worked.

5:34Andrew Allen: It would have worked. The listeners can imagine it. And in some ways, that's the purest and best form of anything, right? Absolutely. Let's leave a second here. They can all just fill in the gap with their own version of Goodly Morning to London Calling. There you go. That's quite enough of that, I think. I'll tell you who it's not a goodly morning for Andrew who's that and that's my son Rocky oh no I sat down and had some very stern words with him this morning bear in mind he's three in a fortnight and let me tell you he's not getting a sniff of Premier League first team football not a sniff so I've told him in no uncertain terms he's got 13 years to make something of himself or he is out.

6:20Andrew Allen: You're out of here. Hashtag washed toddler. Because he's not getting a look in at any Premier League club, let alone coming on and scoring in a pivotal, potentially title deciding game. I mean, part of me thinks, you know, he's not really putting in the hard work or the application, but I do wonder, like, what's the level of coaching like at home? You know? Fair, yeah. Yeah, I'm not... Could be an issue, James. You know, you might have to look in the mirror a little bit here. That's true. Well, I just think... I mean, it was Mother's Day in... He's offering nothing, this guy. It was Mother's Day in the UK this weekend.

7:01Andrew Allen: And let me tell you, do you think he wrote that card? Did he fuck? Did he fuck? He can't hold a pen. Jesus Christ. Do you think he booked the spa day? Get a grip, mate. The guy hasn't got a credit card. Oh, my God. And meanwhile, Max Dowman, a mere 13 years older, is making dreams come true. All I'll say this is, Rocky, the clock is ticking. Well, look, he has a little bit of time on his side. A mere 13 years. Yeah, that's true. Hopefully, yeah. He can turn it around. He can get his act together between now and then. Because Max has set the bar. Max Dowman, my new son, has set the bar. Rocky must change or go.

7:51Andrew Allen: Yeah, many people have adopted Max Dowman. He's got sort of 60 ,000 new foster parents, I think, after the other day. I mean, it was, by any measure, just remarkable what happened and how it happened. And I'm really trying to sort of, you know, when I was thinking about what we do in this particular episode, Obviously, we look back at the game. The way it ended was incredible, and that's why people are going to be excited for this episode. But there's also, you know, you kind of have to look at why it was so incredible. Why did it affect us in the way that it did? And it was because of everything that happened before that, the sort of confluence of events that brought us to that point where, you know, we were in the 88th minute and it could easily have ended nil-nil that game.

8:40And I know people don't necessarily want to hear that this morning, but that's also part of why the Jokeres goal and then the Max Downing goal hit so hard, as they say. You know, it is like I think I said to you on WhatsApp the other night, like any small thing that happened in that game differently would not have led to the outcome that we got. You know, there were incidents in the game from an Everton perspective, from an Arsenal perspective, that had they gone very, very slightly differently, we would not all have experienced that incredible ending to the game and that outpouring of emotion and joy and happiness and, you know, the sense that you've seen something very, very special.

9:25And I'm not necessarily one who believes in the fates or the universe or some things are just meant to be. But I couldn't help but think like, you know, what happens if, you know, the Dwight McNeil shot hits Illiman and Jai and goes in the back of the net rather than just wide of the post? Or what happens if, for example, and this is a crazy one, so bear with me, VAR looks at an obvious foul on Kai Havertz in the penalty area and says, that's a foul and it should be a penalty. Like if that goes in and Everton go down to 10 men and we score a goal and maybe win that game 2-0, we're all happy, right?

10:03We're all delighted with three points because that's the aim of the game, right? To come away with the points. but this sort of sense that football has this, I don't know whether it's magical quality or just this ability as a game to bring you to a place you never thought you could go and certainly in the 88th minute, I did not think in minute 88, I would be feeling in minute 90 plus seven the way I was.

10:34Andrew Allen: No, I mean, I think it was very timely in that respect, Max Downman's goal I mean in a broader context than just the game because it comes at a moment when there's a lot of conversation around football and entertainment and finding the fun and I think this was just a wonderful moment a kind of transcending moment that everyone has kind of bought into and been lifted by I mean I don't think it's purely even Arsenal fans how can your imagination not be captured by a 16-year-old scoring a vital goal in a Premier League game, becoming the youngest Premier League goal scorer in history in doing so.

11:16Andrew Allen: And it being such a remarkable and spectacular in some ways goal as well. Yeah, I think it arrives at a moment when people are sort of, football seems to be in a kind of existential crisis. Maybe we as Arsenal fans less so than some but I think this is a very affirming moment and as you say it could only have happened because of the way certain things fell out you know there's only certain in-game criteria that would have even allowed Max Downwind to be on the pitch I think yeah only certain in-game criteria that would mean that Jordan Pickford was up for a stoppage time corner you know that it was all just so almost serendipitous in a way, the way it fell out that naturally we as Arsenal fans sort of think, well, that just felt like it was meant to happen.

12:10Yeah, yeah. And listen, we've had a couple of those moments before, you know, in seasons past where a remarkable goal, a late goal made you feel like something bigger was going to happen, you know? So we've kind of been there before. I don't know if this one feels different. It does a little bit to me, I have to say. It feels just a little bit different because of what happened subsequent to our game, perhaps, and maybe the point in the season that we're at. But maybe we'll come back around to that because I think it is worth exploring that first half and exploring some of the things that happened in that first half, which led us to the point where we all lost our minds with the two late goals that we scored.

12:58in this game. I mean, how did you view the way Arsenal played in that first half? Because there was a lot of domination of territory. Everton, as you would expect, sat very deep. I thought there was some nice stuff from Arsenal. But on the balance of play, you'd probably say that they had the better chances in that first period.

13:21Andrew Allen: Well, they certainly came closest, didn't they? That Dwight McNeil effort came back off the woodwork. I think it reminded me a little bit of the Brighton game where I sort of felt first 10, 15 minutes we were decent and then it felt to me like they came back into it in the second half of the first half. And I mean, I have to say I was quite impressed by Everton. I know they've got a very good away record, but they struck me as a bit of a Swiss Army knife team who do a little bit of everything. You know, they're very organised, they're very physical, they do have a threat on the break. and I thought it was quite tough going.

13:59Andrew Allen: I mean, I thought it was a difficult game and quite tight. We might have had territorial dominance at times, but I never felt safe, really, in that first half. So, yeah, I thought it was a close affair, really. Yeah, I mean, we needed a remarkable piece of defending from Riccardo Calafiori, which, you know, again, if we're talking about the sort of special things that happen in games and you want to put Max Downman's goal into that category, which it undoubtedly is, I also think you kind of have to look at what Calafiore did there because you can laugh at it if you want or you can say, that's an amazing piece of agility.

14:41I did very much enjoy a poorly drawn Arsenal's version of that particular incident. But it's also like, when's the last time you saw that? Or have you seen that before? Or have you ever seen a defender on the ground at the back post have both the presence of mind and the agility to stick his legs up in the air to make a block? And, you know, that's a very good chance. And Dwight McNeil is a decent player. He's got a good left foot, as we saw with that shot that came off the post. You know, it's an incredible piece of defending. You know, it all adds up to the cocktail of what we got later. But that's a key ingredient to all of it, isn't it?

15:19Andrew Allen: It is. and typically for Ricardo Calafuri it's an entirely untypical piece of defending I've never seen anything quite like it David Moyes marvelled at it after the game and sort of said you know shows the degree to which Arsenal are fighting for this again I mean you say when have you ever seen anything like that I saw Gabriel block a shot with his neck the other day so it does tell you I think a bit about the commitment of this group of Arsenal defenders their absolute determination to keep the ball out of the net. But yeah, an extraordinary, extraordinary piece of defending. I actually couldn't...

15:58Andrew Allen: It was one of those where the ball was struck with such ferocity and then it kind of ricocheted away. I couldn't tell in real time what happened. I thought at first maybe David Ryer had made a save. You know, I just couldn't quite keep track with the flight of the ball. When I saw it on the replay, I was pretty astonished. Ricardo Calafuri actually is... he's doing the pre-match press conference today for Bayer Leverkusen for the Champions League game. And the club always sort of, you know, asked him, what do you think he might be asked about? And I sort of said, I think he might get 10 questions about that block, to be honest with you.

16:32I think so. It's a brilliant, brilliant piece of defending. And it keeps the scores level. And a couple of minutes later, there's an incident in the other penalty box where, I think it's actually Saka and Eze can buy. And Ezzet plays a really good pass. It's a great pass from Ezzet to send Havertz in behind. He goes into the box. It's there for him to have a shot. He goes down. The referee maybe doesn't see contact or see that there's anything that might be worthy of a penalty. but I cannot for the life of me understand how VAR looked at that and saw or decided that there was no penalty to be given here or to give the referee a chance to look at it again on the sideline because it's a clear foul.

17:23Andrew Allen: Yeah, yeah. This is a really, really bad one, I think. What troubles me is the speed with which it was reviewed because actually I think there is an angle on replay and funnily enough, I think it's pretty much the first angle that television showed where it's not conclusive, I wouldn't say. You know, it looks almost like Havertz has tripped over himself and I think from the referee's perspective, I can see how he might reach that conclusion but what's immediately evident when you look at it in the round and you see other replays is that he's very clearly just kicked, basically in the back of his foot.

18:04Andrew Allen: And so how that check was completed within a matter of seconds just feels, I know that obviously, you know, we want these checks to be resolved quickly, but to me that feels ridiculous really to look at one angle of something and just make a decision based on that. They said the start of the second half, what came out from the Premier League match centre thing was that the contact was minimal. But, like, honestly, I don't get it. I don't understand how standing on somebody's foot in the penalty area when he's through on goal is not a penalty. And, you know, let's say potentially a red card for Michael Keane because it's denying a goal-scoring opportunity.

18:51There's no attempt to play the ball, so he wouldn't avoid the red card in that sense. So it would have been a penalty and a red card. I don't understand this idea that, well, the contact was minimal. If you're moving at speed and somebody stands on your foot, you're going to go down. Like why, for example, was the very, very, very, very minimal contact that Nick Pope made on the ball before he booted Victor Jokeres in the game against Newcastle? Why is that sufficient to not give a penalty when this minimal contact is not deemed sufficient for a penalty award when there's no ball in play?

19:33Andrew Allen: Don't know. I'd like to think that, you know, they'll accept wrongdoing on this one. I say that this was a mistake, but it doesn't happen too often. And, yeah, listen, I can understand the referee maybe in that moment doesn't have the best sight of it, but if you're going to have the video technology, you've got to deploy it. My criticism is not of the referee in that moment because I think you need the VAR to see the contact properly. So my criticism is entirely of VAR. And, you know, if they will find the tiniest reason at all to disallow a goal, they'll do it. So I don't really understand why different standards apply when it comes to awarding a penalty.

20:24It just doesn't really make any sense to me, particularly as well when it's as obvious and clear cut as that. But, you know, that was a moment, I have to say, where, you know, I sort of felt, you know, if this game doesn't go our way, is that going to be a moment we look back on and say, in a season of fine margins, is that going to be one of those moments where we go, you know, if we'd had that penalty against Everton, that could have changed the trajectory of that game. You know, it was really kind of weighing on me as a moment where I felt something that should have gone our way did not go our way.

21:06And at this stage of the season, you really feel the weight of those things because they can be, you know, they could be the difference between three points and one point or no points. you know, maybe it lends itself to a less emotional, less enjoyable experience in the grand scheme of things if we're playing against 10 men and we sort of run out prosaic 2-0 winners playing against 10 men in a kind of game that has little to offer from an entertainment spectacle. But, you know, I would also take that at this point of the season, you know?

21:42Andrew Allen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm glad that, you know, we don't have to do a whole podcast on it. Sure. We might have done, had we not won. There was a change, first half change. Christian Mosquera replaced Shurian Timber, who picked up a knock in, I think, an incident. I don't know exactly what happened. It looked like he got stood on. Yes. And he had to go off. He was replaced by Mosquera early in the second half. It was a big chance for Everton. Great save from David Riad, isn't he, a post? Really good save And Everton in that first hour of the game or whatever it was, did have the better chances definitely, as we said David Reier was alert when he needed to be, as has been the case for much of the season Mikel Arteta made some changes on the hour mark, it was Medueke and Havertz off, I mean we didn't really talk about Medueke on the left, you know the team line-up I was, I have to say I was kind of enthused by the lineup that we chose with Saka and Matuweke both starting Eze in there, Havertz up front.

22:48I liked the sort of turnaround, you know, for Mikel Arteta there where it was something just a little bit different, a little less predictable. I don't think Matuweke really worked particularly well on the left. There were a couple of moments. I did wonder if he could go outside a bit more, but he always seemed to want to come back in on his right foot. And I wonder just, not that it's the biggest deal in the world, but just when it comes to him out on the left-hand side, should there be more of an attempt to get him to go wide on his natural left foot and maybe stretch the play a bit?

23:23Andrew Allen: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I didn't think he was great. I was intrigued to see it. I'm not sure he was any worse than Crossard or Martinelli have been in recent weeks, although it's not necessarily the highest bar. One thing I would say if we try this again is that I'd be curious to see him and Saka swapping a bit more because Saka has shown a real capability of going on the outside. Be that a few years ago now, but when he was playing in that kind of overlapping left-back role or left-wing back. and his game is in a bit of a, a little bit of a rut maybe and I think it might benefit him as well to have that variety.

24:04Andrew Allen: So if we do do this again, I'd like to see a bit more sort of flexibility and swapping between those two. So it was Martinelli and Jokeres who came on. I'm not sure they were necessarily the most impactful substitutions but certainly when it came to, you know, to chances and to shots, And Everton's attacking threat sort of dwindled after that. Eza was quite busy. He had that one that he curled just wide. There was one where he forced Pickford into a save. I mean, I think, I'm just going to look at the stats here again. I think Eza had seven shots in this game. Most from outside the box, weren't they?

24:45Andrew Allen: He had a really nice, was it left-footed shot that just curled past? Yeah, first time. A similar trajectory to Dwight McNeil, actually, but not quite as close. Yeah, when, I mean, look, Jokeres and Martinelli, to give them their due, were both involved in our goals in this game in significant ways. But when I saw them coming on together, I did have a thought of these two players have kind of shown an incompatibility, I think, thus far in the season. So introducing them simultaneously was a slightly odd move, even if I understood the rationale of freshness and directness in attack. I mean, I looked at the stats of these two players and Martinelli attempted five passes with a pass accuracy of 40%.

25:36And Jokic has attempted six passes with a pass accuracy of 33%. So there was a... I get it. I understand the substitutions. I understood why he made them. But I do think, you know, there is something about those two players in particular where they're kind of low touch in a game where you kind of maybe need players who are a bit more high touch, if that makes sense, you know. But those were the options that we had. And listen, I think they both played significant roles in what we did in the final part of this game. But, you know, until that sort of 88th minute where we made the breakthrough, it didn't really feel like they improved us from an attacking sense.

26:22Right.

26:23Andrew Allen: No, I think that's fair. I also had a real heart in mouth moment. The Mosquera flick from the set piece that very nearly. I mean, that, you know, that again, if you talk about sort of nearly moments, I mean, if that comes off a couple of millimetres off elsewhere on his head, I think it could very well end up in the back of the net. That moment was just before we brought on Piero and Capier and Max Dowman. So Arteta was clearly making a change or clearly ready to make a change at nil-nil. It could have been one nil. And yeah, that was really, really close, really close. And this was, I think, by the way, the free kick that Everton got there was an absolute joke.

27:13Yeah, it's a complete joke. Like if you're giving a free kick there and you're not giving a penalty for what happened to Havertz, I don't really understand what sort of consistency there is in the officiating decisions. Like, if that's a free kick, the Havertz one is about six penalties. That's all I will say there. And it could have been a moment, yeah, Mosquera flicked it just wide. But that was the moment then that Mikel Arteta decided, okay, Calafuri, he's coming off for in Capier. But the big decision at 0-0 in a game that Arsenal needed to win, had to win, was between Max Dahman and Gabriel Jesus.

27:58I think there's something quite interesting about this as well. You know, we're obviously very enthused by Max, and we'll talk about his contribution and how brilliant it was. But he also had a decision before the game as well, right, where Christian Norgard was left out so Max Diamond could be included. And with 15 minutes to go, So Mikel Arteta looks at his bench and he's got Gabriel Jesus, Brazilian international, won the Premier League X amount of times at Manchester City, has been there, done that, you know, at Premier League level for a long time, but he needs a goal. And he chooses a 16 year old.

28:43And I think, you know, he said afterwards, it was his gut feeling about Max Downman. But I think it probably goes a bit beyond that, right? I think he may well make instinctive decisions. But I also think he's somebody who thinks very carefully about what he does and how he does it and who he asks to do it. so that initial decision to sort of leave a senior experienced midfielder out of the squad entirely so he can include a 16 year old is one thing but then knowing he needs a goal knowing he needs something to get his team the three points the fact that he chose down and over jesus and i know jesus has been injured and is you know diminished from the best version of gabriel jesus we've ever seen I do think it says a lot about how they view Max Daman and what he's capable of at this

29:43Andrew Allen: very young age yeah I think potentially how they view both players to be honest but yes it is quite extraordinary and I mean to give us some credit we had this conversation last week didn't we about how much he might feature and I think we both said we felt you know he wouldn't hesitate Mikael wouldn't hesitate to use Max I'm not sure either of us anticipated this sort of immediacy of impact and probably quite how much Max might feature over what remains of the season but it was a huge call you know this is Anfield was a big call to bring him on there ahead of Ethan and Trossard but that was at a stage of the season where it's all a bit loosey-goosey In terms of the table and what it means and the context around the game, you know, nothing is ever a free hit.

30:38Andrew Allen: But, you know, there's not as much pressure in August, September as there is in mid-March. Yes, I agree. It's a totally different context. And to trust Max in that situation. Well, I think it's partly the sort of fearlessness of youth, isn't it? I think it's about Max's talent, but I think it's also about his personality. But it's a huge endorsement from a manager and one that absolutely paid off as we discovered. Tell me truthfully, what were you thinking in like minute 88 of this game? And there were a couple of chances. I think there was an Eze one saved. down and had a chance set up by as a he's that was a decent chance it was a decent chance leaning back and he sort of put it over the bar and you're thinking oh was was that his moment they said on tv they said something like oh manchester city 45 minutes 40 minutes to kick off they'll be doing their warm-ups but they'll be keeping an eye on this game and i thought about that manchester city dressing room and i thought about them looking at this game nil nil and Like if it had ended nil-nil, you know, how does that sort of get them up for the game that they had that evening against West Ham?

32:00You know, knowing Arsenal have dropped points. I think we played okay. You know, we certainly were a bit more effective from an attacking perspective. We had players who were trying to shoot. We didn't necessarily trust Jordan or test Jordan Pickford massively throughout the game. but it did have the potential to become another one of those games this season where we go what was missing there was just we just didn't quite have enough to get it over the line you know I can't lie this morning I'm absolutely like everybody else elated with how it ended up and particularly the manner in which the game played out but I'd be completely dishonest if I sat here this morning and told you yeah I was always confident we got the goal you know it was just matter of time you know that that was not the case I was I was really really worried I have to say I was really worried at 88 minutes and this game is nil nil and not just from our perspective I think Everton were really really tough to play against and made it very very difficult for us to

33:04Andrew Allen: to eventually find a breakthrough yeah I'll be totally honest and say I wasn't particularly confident of us doing that I felt Everton I think comfortable would be an exaggeration, but they looked solid, you know, and we weren't necessarily getting the momentum of multiple chances that you sort of feel makes a goal inevitable. I was very reminded of our game against them, I think it was the season before, December 2024, we drew nil-nil at home with Everton at the Emirates Stadium. And I was kind of having flashbacks to that. And of course, you're projecting what that might mean. You know, you're looking at City going to West Ham, galvanised by us dropping points, closing the gap.

33:50Andrew Allen: And you start sort of scenario planning and sort of disaster planning and thinking, well, then we've got to go, we've got to buy Leverkusen, we've got the Carabao Cup final. What does the picture look like a week from now? And you're right, Pickford hadn't had a ton to do. The best save he'd made in the game was actually from an offside situation from Bakaya Saka. But fortunately, fortunately, he had one major moment still to come, which helped us out. I am not necessarily inclined to shout at my television. But I did shout at my television when David Raya was sort of standing there with the ball at his feet.

34:37and I felt like I felt like I don't know that there's necessarily time for this kind of stuff but I will hold my hands up and say that the goal the first goal just does not happen if David doesn't do what he did in that moment where they sort of enticed Everton on and I'm actually surprised I think you can talk about the Pickford mistake which I think it is I mean he tries to be decisive but with those tiny arms it's really really difficult what can you do what can you do a little t-rex arms of his but but i think you know where perhaps there's not a bigger everton mistake but where they probably should have just sat off they decided to press the goalkeeper and there was a sort of slightly hairy moment where gabrielle and raya traded passes i think the pass back from raya to gabrielle i'm not saying it was almost intercepted but it was one of those that Raya had to get exactly right as the Everton player, I think it was Barry at that point, decided to press.

35:42But what it did was open up the pitch for Gabriel to play a cross field ball. When he was shaping to hit it, I was like going, oh God, we're going, he's just going to lump it into the opposition half. But actually, it's a really, really good cross field pass to Christian Muscara. Muscara and Daumen, you know, combine on the right hand side. Everton get a tackle in. We have a throw and Everton kind of switch off for half a second, which allows Daumen the time to put in the cross, which Pigford comes for, gets the tiniest tiniest little talent on. It drops down, hits Piero and Capier in the mickey and falls perfectly for Victor Jacarez to make it 1-0.

36:32Yeah. Oh boy. I mean, not the cleanest goal you'll ever score in your life. Probably the easiest finish Jokeres will ever have in his life. But who gives a fuck at that point of the game? You know, this is where, you know, we talk about split second things being the difference at Premier League level. And this is what I'm talking about with the throw-in where Everton just let down and have the ball. Pickford misjudging it by what? half a second, split second, and Jokeres, right place at the right time. That's exactly where you want your centre forward, and it's 1-0.

37:08Andrew Allen: Absolutely. And actually, I think that throw-in moment is massive. I think Everton do switch off for a second, half a second, and Max steps off, finds some space. In the season of the long throw, this was a great advert for a quick throw. you know that sort of alacrity that speed of thought was the difference and it's a brilliant ball from Max because as much as it is a pick for Dera it tempts him out doesn't it it shows him enough that he's like I can get there he forgets briefly how tiny those arms truly are and yeah Hincapier is there at the back post Martinelli's in the mix as well comes to Jocheres and to be honest Sandro, I mean, I can't remember exactly what the stats that you read out about his all-round game were.

38:00Andrew Allen: You know, half a dozen passes, you know. 33%. Right, exactly. I don't think he'll give two hoots about that. I don't. Based after this game. No. You know, he did what he is there to do. Puts the ball in the back of the net. I really enjoy, by the way. Yes, I know what you're going to say. Do you know what I'm going to say? Is it in cap yet? No, I thought you were going to talk about the way Max Dowman just arrived on his back and tried to throttle the life out of him as he started bringing the goal. That was good. It's a bit alarming. What I love is Pierre-Encapierre, he's got a kind of slight mad dog spirit to him, as discussed.

38:40He looks like a sort of salty pirate or something, doesn't he?

38:44Andrew Allen: Yeah. Well, I don't know if you noticed, but when this ball goes in and at one end, sort of one corner of the goal, Max Daumann is trying to decapitate Victor Yokeres with like a flying clothesline and then a stranglehold Pierre-Yen Capier runs to completely the opposite corner in celebration he gets on the end of the cross the ball goes in he's turned and he's gone I'm looking at him he's having his own celebration I guess with the sub maybe so he's his own man Yeah, I can see him over there with the subs, actually, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's good. But yeah, listen, I think a huge, huge moment. And listen, naturally, it's somewhat overshadowed, I think, by Max's goal.

39:37But we don't get Max's goal without this.

39:39Andrew Allen: This is the winner. This is the winner. And it's another winner in a big game. Jokic scored both. six points against Everton, wasn't he? Because he scored the penalty. That's right. That's right. Yeah, I mean, listen, you know, perhaps one of the accusations that you make about Arsenal is that we don't have men in those positions often enough, you know? And if you look, it's pure, he's just there in the middle, anticipating, reading it, puts it in the back of the net. Like, it's not a difficult finish, but, you know, you've got to be there. And he was, and listen, fair play to him. And like you say, I think this is the winning goal.

40:24Given the time it came, 89 minutes, it's a huge moment and a huge goal. And then it also led to what came next, which was unbelievable and extraordinary and incredible and we'll get into it. But there was six minutes of injury time, which I think Arsenal pretty much controlled until we didn't. And then there was, there was, I think, a long throw and Capier maybe actually made a good tackle and went out for the throw. And is it Gabriel? I can't remember exactly who the two Arsenal players were. As Jake O 'Brien threw that ball in, it's Gabriel and somebody else. maybe it's Saliba, I'm not sure.

41:18But they go for the ball, it goes behind for a corner. I mean, if we talk about thinking about how this game might play out when we haven't scored a goal, I also had some dark thoughts, it's fair to say.

41:35Andrew Allen: Well, and understandable, you know, you think of the Wolves games where we conceded late on. there have been some some hairy moments so I can understand those fears for sure it was Gabrielle and and Capier actually right so the corner is set up for James Garner to take a right footed out swinging corner which I was glad of because the in swinging corners that most teams take at this point are are much more scary than an outswinging corner. Credit again, I think, to Victor Jokeres, who makes a really good and important header at the near post, which is kind of what we ask our centre forward to do.

42:23So many recollections of seeing Havertz doing it and Mikel Marino doing it when he's been playing up front. So it's a role that we've asked our centre forward to play for quite a long time, actually. But it's a big, brave, solid, important header from Jokeres, which sees the ball go up in the air. Martinelli heads it on. And from there, we get something, I think, very, very special from Max Dam. And let me just play this because I did threaten it earlier. So this is how it went down on that. I think it's Argentinian or South American commentary.

43:05Andrew Allen: the speed, the pick for save Martinelli Daugman, the goal is to be the guy, the guy is to be the goal, the guy is to be the goal, the guy is to be the guy, the guy is to be the goal of Daugman Patianene, Patianene goal goal

43:26goal goal goal

43:30Andrew Allen: London calling London calling

43:45I love it. Absolutely love it. But, I mean, I think there's a sense maybe that, you know, what, it's easy to just roll the ball into an empty net because the goalkeeper is not there. and it's sort of like a formality that you go and score when the ball is clear. Like, do you remember the one we scored when Emi Martinez went up against Aston Villa in that game a few seasons ago and it was Martinelli who ran through and scored in a similar way. I think it was a Fabio Vieira pass that sent him through. But I think what's extraordinary about this is Dowman's reaction time. He heads the ball down. he goes beyond Mikalenko who's a very experienced Premier League and international player I will say if I was an Everton fan I would be a bit unhappy that he didn't just drag down and down just take him down but maybe he was thinking like do I want to be known as the guy who strangled a child on a football pitch I do wonder if that was part of it like I wonder if that was Victor Yacharez going through, would Mikalenko have just jumped on his back or pulled his shirt off?

45:02I think there might be something to that. But credit to Damman for showing the strength and the speed to get past him. Then to sidestep Dewsbury Hall, who sort of lies on his back because he goes, oh, fuck, he knows exactly what's happened. and then to take the ball forward and roll it into the net. You know, from the time he heads it down, there are just four touches. He covers, what, about 70 yards? And he makes it look so, so simple, and it's anything but simple, you know, particularly for a 16-year-old boy. it's it's just an amazing it's amazingly composed and elegant and skillful and quick and decisive and it's no wonder people lost their minds at it because i think above and beyond the fact that it's scored by a 16 year old it's just such a brilliantly clinical piece of play from downman to expose Everton as they pushed forward.

46:08Pickford is nowhere, but he still has to beat two men and then keep his cool and go through. Amazing.

46:15Andrew Allen: Yeah, it's a fantastic goal. And I think you're right. I think the empty net might lead some people to imagine it's straightforward, but it's absolutely not. We don't see this. I mean, goalkeepers coming up for corners, it happens. Any game that has a goal advantage, when you get to the last key for stoppage time if there's a set piece chances are keepers coming up you do not see that exploited in this fashion very often I think the speed with which he moves I mean the acceleration to get beyond Mikhailenko is incredible the control it's the speed and the control really in tandem and if you watch the way he goes past Dewsbury Hall Yeah.

47:03Andrew Allen: He kind of shifts the ball over to carry it on his right foot. And that sort of two-footed dribbling is pretty rare, actually. You don't see that all the time. Santi Cazorla-esque in terms of how he shifts the ball between his feet? Yeah, he looks so comfortable doing it. And yeah, it's an amazing moment. I mean, we're very blessed, obviously. there have been loads of replays and fan footage and all sorts. But my favourite, a few people asked us, what is our favourite? What's your favourite? Favourite replay. I like the one from kind of, I guess it's from the clock end, where you get this incredible visual of Dalman sort of carrying the ball the length of the pitch, but then heading towards a goal where he can look up and see all the fans in the North Bank knowing he's about to score.

48:01Andrew Allen: And it's this incredible thing of seeing people kind of almost celebrating before the ball is over the line and then it going up a level. There's even the big flag in the clock end and you can see the steward or whoever it is kind of grabbing the flag in anticipation, sort of sensing this is about to happen. And I love that, to be honest, from all the angles. where you can see like the guys on the bench almost encroaching onto the pitch because they recognize what's about to unfold um yeah i mean it is it is amazing and there's that sort of you can see when he goes past Jewsbury Hall that one where it's from behind the Everton goal you know and the Arsenal players like i think it's uh Saliba and Gabriel are at the back with their hands in the air already celebrating the goal.

48:51Rice is there. Can we talk about Martinelli for a second? Because I think Martinelli is there to sort of see if he can get a pass first because he's got the pace, but also he recognizes that Damon is capable of scoring that goal and realizes that Everton defenders are chasing and sort of steps across to slow the chase by whichever Everton defender that is. I really like that from Martinelli. Um, but then when he goes past Jewsbury hall, there's this like cheer that everyone knows he's going to score a goal here, but there's still that moment as people are cheering and cheering and cheering and cheering.

49:32There's still that moment just before he puts the ball in the net where it's sort of almost dies down. And then the explosion goes for the goal itself, which is just the audio of it. Sky Sports put out a compilation of like all the angles that they have from the cameras in the ground, which is amazing to watch. And there's some brilliant reactions, you know, the bench. Yeah, I mean, Arteta running up like the weirdest thing happened in this game. Like it was so extraordinary and remarkable that somebody has caught Mikel Arteta kind of gurning. I've never seen a bad picture of Mikel Arteta. This is how crazy it was that he's sort of got this like twisted face on him as he's celebrating the goal, you know, running to the staff, the subs running down, down and booting the corner flag.

50:27Just incredible. You know, when like eight minutes before you're sitting there biting your nails, anxious, worried about, oh, God, if we drop points here, Man City win, are we going to get holds back? And then just a few minutes later to feel like you're kind of on top of the world is unbelievable. I think it really is only football that can do that to you.

50:51Andrew Allen: Yeah, yeah. And huge emotion and catharsis in that moment. I also really love by the way one other detail from the many replays Jordan Pickford as the ball is kind of cleared from the penalty area I think he initially thinks Mikhelenko is going to win it so he sort of he faints to like stay up in the Arsenal box and then there's just a horrible moment for him when Dalman just zips past Mikhelenko where he suddenly realizes oh no he's got to try and get back I think there's also a bit where when the ball is bouncing at Martinelli, his sort of goalkeeper instincts kick in. He goes over. I think he's thinking about like, can I handle this ball here?

51:32But realizes obviously that he can't. I mean, the whole thing was extraordinary. Absolutely extraordinary. And you talk about moments in a season or all-time moments in, you know, this stadium in particular. It just felt like, as you say, catharsis, a big release. I mean, the Jokeres goal was hugely important, But this was maybe the sort of moment that makes you think, actually, you know, if things aren't, if I thought things weren't going our way with that Havertz penalty, maybe this is the moment where it feels like they really are or it's lined up for us. And you don't get this stuff by accident, though.

52:16You know, you've got to work for it. And clearly what Max Downman did in that moment, you know, what the Arsenal players did in that moment, you know, Jokeres making that header near post. Martinelli heading it on, down and doing what he did. I mean, it's just crazy, isn't it?

52:31Andrew Allen: Yeah. And look, obviously we hope this is a title-winning season and all title-winning seasons have their kind of milestone, iconic matches and moments. And I think absolutely this will be won if we get over the line. And I think as well, it's just a beautiful story of a guy from a family of Arsenal fans, 16 years old, going out onto a pitch in a big game, delivering a goal of that brilliance, of that magnitude, in front of his home supporters, with his family in the crowd. I mean, it's exactly the kind of stuff, you know, we want to win, but we want to dream as well. And I guess maybe the accusation has been at times that this is an Arsenal team that for all its excellence, does it inspire dreams in that way?

53:29Andrew Allen: Well, this moment absolutely did and absolutely will. I don't know how many replays I've watched. I don't know how many times I've seen the goals and watched it all back again. Like it was one of those where it was kind of hard to sleep on Saturday night. You're just so, not wound up, but so excited by what you've witnessed. I mean, I wonder did Max Diamond sleep? I mean, surely not. Surely not. No.

54:07Andrew Allen: Yeah, I just can't imagine the adrenaline. Wow, what a moment for him. And, you know, I think as well, I mean, look, if Max never kicks another ball for Arsenal, like this moment will live forever. You know, we still talk about Federico Makeda for Manchester United. Do we? I don't know what happened to him after that. I don't know that we do. Okay, but he has a place in this kind of annals of Premier League history, you know. And I think we also suspect or are led to believe by people we trust that what we witnessed is the arrival of a potential star. There is this hope that this is just the beginning for Max.

55:01And again, that's incredibly exciting.

55:07Andrew Allen: So yeah, I mean, just an extraordinary moment. And I think everyone who was in that stadium, who I've spoken to since, has spoken about the kind of recognition of that and the feeling of privilege that they were there to witness it. They witnessed something very, very special, no doubt about it. No doubt about it. And like we said, you know, you can't have that special moment without all the other stuff that came before it, you know? It's all part, it's all ingredients in that particular... It's crazy how not just football, but life can be like that, you know? it can seem so scripted. Yeah. And even like the Premier League record, I don't know if you saw this, but Max becomes the youngest player to score in the Premier League by a fair distance.

55:57Andrew Allen: But the player he beat, whose record he's taken, is James Vaughan. And Mikel Arteta played in that game for Everton. And this came against Everton. Blind. Weird, isn't it? I mean, David Moyes was the man of Everton when Wayne Rooney at 16 years of age scored that goal against Arsenal that announced him to the world. Oh, yeah? Yeah. So, I mean, that kind of... And I remember that very clearly. Was that... What year was that in? Was that... Oh, would it have been 2003 or 2002? I can't remember exactly. I mean, Wayne Rooney has never looked 16 in his life. I mean, he looked about 43 when he was 16.

56:45But I remember that goal. I remember how it felt, you know, very, very well. I did send a text to Rog from Men in Blazers, who's a big Everton fan. And I said, I think we just witnessed some long overdue revenge for the 16-year-old Wayne Rooney goal. He gave out to me, said, can you not just enjoy? You don't have to stick the knife in like that. but you know yeah yeah you know it is 2002 that was yeah right there you go there you go I mean Wayne Rooney's smacking it past David Seaman in the Arsenal goal that day so you know there are yeah there are so many strands to all of this really aren't there and you know the way I mean how do you think what happened on Saturday is something Mikel Arteta can use because, you know, for us, obviously, as fans, it ripples a bit longer, but he has to try and harness that emotion.

57:50And you could see, you know, you look at the way Raya reacted and Gabriel reacted and all the players, you know, Ben White, who didn't get on the pitch, you know, delighted running down the sideline, Gabriel Jesus, the same, you know, this sort of outpouring of emotion wasn't just, okay, 16-year-old scores a goal to seal a game. There was something a bit more to it, something a bit more special about it. But from the manager's perspective, there's a big game tomorrow night and there's a cup final on Sunday. So he's got to kind of get these guys and take them out of that highly emotional state and sort of get them refocused again.

58:32I mean, it's got to be something he can use, though, as well, in a really positive way, right?

58:37Andrew Allen: Yeah, I think it will be less about taking them out of it and more about channeling it. Because that catharsis that we felt, those players felt that too in that moment. I think it lifted a weight from them. And this is our last Premier League game for quite some time, I think I'm right in saying. Crazy. Because obviously we'd go into the international break. and we have to look at the sort of context of what it did to the Premier League table I mean temporarily we had a 10 point lead in mid-March and I think even the most cautious of Arsenal fans would say that is an incredibly strong position to be in I know City obviously clawed a point back against West Ham I mean as soon as we scored that goal as soon as the game was over I thought I think City are going to drop points And I mean, look, simply because I felt like it felt like a big blow for it to go in the space of five minutes from, you know, an opportunity to narrow the gap to what would have been to four points, I think, if we'd drawn or five points.

59:48Andrew Allen: And then suddenly it's 10. That's a huge swing. It's a huge swing. I absolutely had zero faith in West Ham getting anything out of that game, I will say. And fair play to anybody who followed up watching the Arsenal game and what it, I won't say what it put us through, but certainly we had to endure a bit before we got the enjoyable part, right? Anyone who then was able to sit through Man City having about 50 chances against West Ham, my hat is off to you. I took a glass of wine upstairs and I was playing PlayStation for a bit and then my phone started buzzing and I was like, ooh, what's going on here?

1:00:33But I completely ignored what was going on at Man City. So the fact that they dropped points on top of us winning them late, I mean, it just felt massive, absolutely massive.

1:00:44Andrew Allen: Yeah, and we talk about fine margins or are things going our way. I mean, I watched, not the entirety of these games, but the last five minutes of City's games against Forest and West Ham. And against Forest, in the dying seconds, they have a shot virtually cleared off the line. Against West Ham, Mark Gehe scoops it over the bar from about six yards out. And, you know, that's four points. there in those moments. And I feel, I know we didn't get the Habits penalty in this game. I feel, and it's not to say we haven't earned it. It's not to say we haven't absolutely done all the right things, but that if you are to win a league, you do need certain margins to go in your favour.

1:01:30Andrew Allen: And I feel that right now they are for us. And that's, you know, fantastic. You've got to go with it when it happens. You've got to back it up and you've got to deliver. And I think we are doing that. And as you said, we're sort of, we're making it happen tomorrow michael's phrase um and also andrew i think we may owe an honorary medal to a former gunner in in constantinus maverapanos yes not only scores the equalizer but also um takes a leaf out of gabrielle's book and blocks one with his face that is an extraordinary photograph if people haven't seen it he takes an erling holland shot like right in the mush and the ball the picture is the photographer has taken it right at the moment where the ball is squashing into maverpanos's face i mean the ball looks like half a ball because the rest of it is just yeah my conclusion is he's got an exceptionally hard face i think based on that but well he used his hard face slash head to nod home a very important equalizer for for West Ham in that game.

1:02:35So listen, if we do, if we do get it over the line, if we do win the title, I mean, the very least they could do is send him a, you know, a carriage clock or something like that. If not a Premier League winner's medal, they could make a gesture, no?

1:02:49Andrew Allen: Yeah, massive from him. Massive for us. A brilliant weekend. Sadly, Liverpool couldn't do their bloody job yesterday, but... Fuck's sake. Can't count on those guys. Listen, you know, the other stuff is sort of not irrelevant, but it is. It's all bonus. It's all bonus stuff. We just want the, you know, all the prizes and the trophies. And if there's a bonus, if there's some icing on the cake, okay. I'm not going to get too stressed out about it. We've got enough to stress about, enough to worry about with our own stuff rather than sort of be moaning what Liverpool do or don't do against the worst Tottenham side anyone has ever seen.

1:03:30Absolutely. Yeah. Okay, I think we should take a break, right? We've got some questions about other bits and pieces, which we will attend to when we take a short break and we'll be right back. I had to fuck this up, haven't I? I don't normally say it like this. I don't know how to do it now.

1:03:50Andrew Allen: We're going to be back after this.

1:04:30We'll see you next time. Code STER50. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueyprint.com slash terms for more.

1:04:39Welcome back to the Arsecast Extra. This is part two of the show where we answer the questions that you send to us on bluesky at gunnerblog.bsky.social and at arseblog.com. Also on the Arseblog Discord chat server, which you get access to if you are an Arseblog member on Patreon. As we said, though, James, busy week. St. Patrick's Day tomorrow. Yes, tomorrow.

1:05:01Andrew Allen: And a birthday, by the way, of a listener, Rory McGrath. Happy 70th birthday. 70 good number happy birthday it could be a good year for a big birthday yes I'm 40 later this year right those round number birthdays exactly yeah the parade is my party okay I'm there if it happens you don't like parties though I remember you saying that before historically yeah I might make a break from that might make a break and invite 250 ,000 people to your birthday party yeah if you're going to do it go big I think that's fair. Anyway, happy birthday in advance to you and happy birthday to Rory McGrath. And thank you for listening.

1:05:42Do you have a question about tomorrow night? I do.

1:05:46Andrew Allen: It's from Kdale on the Discord. And they say, with Max's contribution this weekend and his fearlessness, could you see a way he starts against Leverkusen? Personally, I think Nonny blew cold this weekend as it was half decent, but maybe riding the Dalman wave might be a good idea from Mikel. He was asked in his press conference afterwards, wasn't he, is Max now going to be starting games? And he said, calmer, calmer. I think he will be very cautious and sensible with Max Downman. I think there is a role to play, certainly, when he comes off the bench and has that kind of an impact. You know, this is a young guy who unquestionably will play more between now and the end of the season.

1:06:35I don't really see him starting tomorrow, though. I think it's probably a bit too much to ask. I think there is, you know, an interesting aspect of management here, isn't there? You know, we all recognize the talent. We all recognize Max's fearlessness and all that kind of stuff. But I think there's also a need maybe to try and keep expectations in check, you know. like don't let the hype get out of control but make sure that you harness his talent in the best possible way I think we know from previous experience Mikel Arteta will be maybe a bit more cautious with Max Damon than people might like do you think yeah well

1:07:28Andrew Allen: I think it depends if he needs him I can foresee his circumstance I don't think he'll start against Leverkusen Let's go like that. And if the game state doesn't demand it, I could foresee a situation where he doesn't get on. I think it's entirely possible, and maybe it wouldn't be the worst thing in a way. But I think if we need him, and we need a difference maker, after what he delivered at the weekend, I think Mikel will go to that well again. And it is an interesting balance, isn't it, between hype and excitement and responsibility and care. And, yeah, it's something that we, I think, as supporters and particularly people like you and I, who are sort of talking and writing about Max, will have to kind of manage, I think, in this very, very early stage of his career.

1:08:26I think that's right, though. You know, we are, you know, we're talking about what a 16 year old did on a football pitch and talking about it in kind of hushed reverent terms because it was so incredible. And, you know, he's sort of living a dream that that anyone listening to this would have had when they were 16 years of age. Right. But I think there is also a responsibility to recognize that, you know, he is still a boy. He is in a very, very, not unique, but, you know, for him to be where he is at that age is not normal. I think that's what Arteta said as well afterwards on his Sky interview.

1:09:02He said what Max does is not normal for a 16-year-old. So I think there is a need to recognize that and to sort of be appropriate in certain moments when we talk about him and when we, what we ask of him as well, right? Because I think there is a sort of fearlessness of youth element to how he plays. And you hope that he never loses that. But you also have a responsibility to manage a career. You also have a responsibility to manage a young man physically because at 16, you know, he's not small, but he's certainly not physically fully developed by any means. And I think there is an element of that as well, you know, that you don't want to put too many demands on a 16-year-old body because it can come back to haunt a player.

1:09:54You know, certain players who start very early have seen their careers end relatively early in comparison with some other players, right, who don't maybe make their breakthrough until a later point in their life. So, yeah, there are all of those things to think about.

1:10:13Andrew Allen: Yeah, I mean, funnily enough, you know, in touchwood, Max has a very different path. But I was thinking about James Vaughan, who Max took that Premier League record from. I mean, he had terrible injuries quite early in his career and was effectively out of the pro game by about 32. Had a real sort of journeyman career around championship level. I don't think anything is guaranteed, however extraordinary the talent may be. and I think we've just got to enjoy this moment for Max really and yeah, what will be will be but I still, you know, I thought last week he'd play a part between now and the end of the season I think he already has done I think there's probably more to come from him but I think Mikel will manage it responsibly and I think part of that will be protecting him from starting too many games but yeah do you have any other sort of major thoughts on the team for tomorrow I mean I think it will be pretty strong I wonder will it be Jokeres rather than Havertz up front or it depends if Trossard is back as well I think Capier could come in I mean Timber is a doubt obviously I've got questions about that actually about that substitution So do I.

1:11:37Go on, if you want to go ahead. Well, yeah.

1:11:41Andrew Allen: Tola said, good morning, gents. I think you'll find it's goodly morning, Tola. Does Mascara coming on for Timber ahead of White signal Arteta's view of who the better right-back is, or would you posit a different reason for the change? I hadn't even considered White would not be Timber's replacement. But he now appears to have fallen further down the right-back pecking order. There were other questions. Daniel Constable, goodly morning, gents. It's going to be a lot of happy questions, so I'm going to ask if you think Ben White is just being protected to be able to sell him in the summer. Yeah, there was another one from Wise Mark Clark.

1:12:18Can you explain the lack of football Ben White is getting? I worry he has a very serious injury, a la Tommy Asu. Tommy Asu, the other concern, it's a major fallout or breakdown in communication with management.

1:12:31I mean, I don't know. So I was a bit surprised not to see Ben White when Timber went off, I have to say, because when Timber picked up that injury, they showed Ben White warming up on the sideline. The generous way of looking at it is maybe they don't think Ben White has 60 minutes of football in him. like maybe he was a 20, 30 minute sub because of the injuries or the fitness issues that he has. But I also think maybe there is a little bit of a passing of the torch here or Arteta just feels that Mosquera is more match fit and has played a bit more. I was surprised though and I was a little bit sad.

1:13:18You know, I know it was a great day and everything else. But I was a bit sad not to see Ben White come on because I do think it says something about where things have gone for him and where they might go in the future. That's sort of a, if they're both fully fit and they're both fully ready, I think that's a no-brainer of a sub, right? Timber goes off, Ben White comes on. Look at the quality that he displayed for us for a long, long time. But for whatever reason, Mikel Arteta doesn't quite trust in Ben White anymore. And I think I've said it before. I don't think it's anything to do with the quality of Ben White as a footballer or the quality of Ben White's character or what he's willing to do for the team.

1:14:06So the only thing I can think of is that there is something physical that is that has pushed him further down Mikel Arteta's pecking order.

1:14:17Andrew Allen: yeah I mean one thing I wondered in the moment was could it be height you know Everton are massive and they're a real threat and set pieces I was like is this is he favoring Mosquera's height here I mean I suppose Njai as well on the left hand side he poses a very particular challenge and maybe if there were concerns over White's fitness or body the sort of sprinting style that's required against somebody like that who's going to run at you time and time again maybe that wasn't the right matchup um but overall bigger picture that change does sort of play into my hunch that that ben white he might he might be in his last season at arsenal yeah um you know i i think there's a decent chance of that and because he's a player who if he if he is fit, absolutely has the quality to be playing really in this day.

1:15:12100%. So we'll see what he does then with the team and listen, Tuesday to Sunday means there's probably more of an inclination to go strong, you know, and it is a game that's in the balance against a team who were good last week. Arsenal weren't particularly good away from home but Leverkusen were also decent and made it difficult for us. Did they just beat Bayern Munich at the weekend? Did I dream that or is that real? Ah, I don't know.

1:15:41Andrew Allen: Let's have a look. I'm pretty sure they did. Right. With 10 men maybe or no, Bayern Munich had 10 men. Ah, it was a draw. It was a draw, okay. I think I'm right in saying 1-1, yes. Luis Diaz equalizer. But yeah, they dominated the game. That's for sure. Right. So yeah, that tells you. We're Bayern down to 10 now, right. Bayern were down to 10 men. I don't know. It doesn't fucking matter. Let's have a look. I think what we can say. I think what we can say, it's going to be tough. It's going to be tough. Oh, yes. Diaz was sent off in the last 10 minutes, having equalised. Bayern actually ended with nine men.

1:16:27Andrew Allen: Nicholas Jackson was sent off before halftime. Okay. So you can spin that any way you want, really. They failed to beat nine men Bayern Munich. is one reading. That's certainly how it would be played if it was an Arsenal game that went like that. But, you know, Patrick Schick started the game, so he wasn't quite fully fit to play against Arsenal. You'd imagine he will be fit. That gives them a bit of a conundrum, really, because I thought Kofane was really good. He was, actually. He gave Timber and Saliba and Gabriel some problems, for sure. Yeah. just skimming through the team. Palacios started on the bench and came on.

1:17:11Andrew Allen: So maybe a bit of a rest for him. Yeah, nothing else particularly of note. So yeah, we shall see. It's very intriguingly poised and we'll have to be good to beat Leverkusen there. Yeah, for sure. Decent team. Okay, on the Discord, Just W Bennett says, Although he hasn't scored or assisted again in the league since his now trademark performance against Spurs, I felt like Eza has shown improvement, at least in his presence during recent games. How confident are you of a spring burst like the one he's had for Palace in the past? Yeah, it was an interesting performance from Eza. I mean, I think he had moments.

1:17:54Andrew Allen: Did you say he had six shots? Seven. Seven. I mean, that's a lot for any player in any game. And I think it's encouraging that we're getting him into those spaces and that he's got the confidence to take those moments on. That left foot one that went just past the post would have been a really beautiful goal and it wasn't far off at all. I mean, I see him retaining his place, certainly for the remainder of the week. I think he'll start both games. Yeah. You know, I think even if Martin Odegaard gets back, I'm not sure he'll get back into the starting line. Do we, I mean, do we know whether or not he might be back, Odegaard, for Sunday?

1:18:42I don't know if it'll happen for tomorrow. And if he is back or if we do get him back as an option off the bench for Sunday, Do we run the risk then of him being called up to the interlull for those games? And is there a danger? Well, there's two sides to it, I suppose. There might be like a danger that we've brought him back for a final. He's not quite ready. He goes away with Norway and hurts himself again. Or you could look at the international break as an opportunity for a player who hasn't played a great deal in the last little while to get some competitive minutes. Presume Norway are just playing some friendlies, are they?

1:19:27Andrew Allen: Good question. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So it might be a case that you use that international break to get some minutes into Martin Odegaard. Yeah, they're playing the Netherlands and Switzerland. So potentially against Shuri and Timber and potentially against Granit Xhaka. Well, I don't think you're going to be able to persuade Martin Odegaard to miss a cup final if he's got a chance of being there I mean, he wasn't here in 2020 when we won the FA Cup Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang was captain that day we had Danny Sabayos in Armoured Field in the final so he's not won anything beyond the community shield as Arsenal captain and ostensibly it will be him lifting the trophy if we do it and if he's there.

1:20:18So I think that game will have been a target for him over the last few weeks.

1:20:25Andrew Allen: The latest I heard was a conversation I had about a week ago where I was told he should be fine for that. But that's old information, you know. So you don't know how someone's rehab has progressed since that point. you'd imagine he'll just be absolutely desperate to be involved. Sure. And I think if that comes with the unfortunate reality of him having to go away on international duty, I think Arsenal have to live with that. His international manager actually spoke about his injury, didn't he? A week or so ago. And I think intimated that he didn't regard it as too serious, that he'd miss a few weeks, but he should be fine.

1:21:08Andrew Allen: But yeah, he'll be gutted, I would say, if he misses Wembley. Yeah, for sure. As captain of the club and a player who's given a lot to this football club over the last number of years, even if this season has been a very difficult one for him, will give Mikel Arteta some decisions to make about his bench, wouldn't it? Definitely. You know? Definitely. He's already having to make those. We spoke about Norgard being left out. Sure. Sure. If we get more players back, that's going to become even more complicated. Yeah, I mean Timber out then might make room, but Trossard wasn't there. He might be back as well.

1:21:50So yeah, he'll have some serious thinking to do.

1:21:54Andrew Allen: With Mosquera coming on ahead of White, could we see somebody like Ben White drop off the substitute bench? I don't think that's beyond the realms of possibility. No, I guess not. I guess not. If you want to load your bench with attacking talent, A defender's going to have to make way. And Mosquera, I guess, is that kind of versatile defender as well who can play at centre-half. You could say Ben White is nominally somebody who could play at right-back and at centre-half as well, although he hasn't really played at centre-half much since he moved out to right-back. Yeah, maybe so. I think players where there's a bit of duplication, like Hincapier and Louis Skelly, for example, were both on the bench against Everton, it wouldn't blow my mind I think Lewis Gulley missed out on the Leeds game didn't he a few weeks ago I could see that happening again through the season Is it your question or my question?

1:22:53Andrew Allen: It's probably mine It is yeah because I asked that as a question We had some questions I'm still on a high from the game but I am worried about Saka I think his confidence is shot Many times he had a clear sight of goal but elected to pass. His touch was off too. Max did the things he normally does. Is this a blip or something more? I mean, he hasn't been brilliant this season. I also don't think he's been as bad as people have said. certainly wasn't good last week against Leverkusen at all maybe the worst I've seen him play but you're looking for Saka and you're looking for end product and it's not really there at this moment in time which is a little bit of a worry a little bit of a worry alright but I don't know he's neither really getting the goals or the assists right at this moment even with the set piece delivery it's not paying dividends as it has previously I thought Mikel handled the whole Saka substitution really well by the way the way he spoke about it head of the Everton game I wasn't there but obviously I watched the press conference later and I thought he framed it perfectly in terms of his continued admiration for Saka as a player and just the idea that even your best players can have an off night.

1:24:35Andrew Allen: Yeah. And he certainly did against Leverkusen. And I think it was absolutely the right thing to take him off. Bigger picture. I am a little worried. You know, is that okay to admit that? Yeah, I think that's fine. I'm also a bit worried. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, I also think...

1:25:00yeah maybe there's just a because he set the expectations so high you know that when he falls below that and coming off the back of that big injury he had as well you can't help but worry a little bit right yeah and look there is some important context to offer

1:25:21Andrew Allen: I do we spoke about Martin Odegaard I don't think any player misses Martin Odegaard more than Bakaya Saka. When you think about their understanding, their relationship on the pitch, it was absolutely integral to everything Saka did. Now, it's his responsibility to form new partnerships with Jurien Timber, with Eze, with whoever else it might be. But I do think that that has hurt him. There is obviously a major surgery to consider last year. and that's the bit that sort of niggles at me and worries me a little I also have to say that none of our attackers it remains the case that none of our attackers are having stellar seasons I mean I don't know if you've observed this but I've seen a lot of talk this weekend about Bruno Fernandes as a potential footballer of the year and I just think Isn't that interesting?

1:26:21Andrew Allen: Arsenal are so dominant domestically. And frankly, I think what we've done domestically probably warrants one of our players being recognised as Footballer of the Year. But it's interesting that you have to look to Manchester United, a team who've actually had a really odd season that's put together a run of form now, but until Amerim went, were a bit of a mess, to find attacking talent who is performing at a really elite level. I mean, there just isn't tons of it around in the league. I think that's true. I think that is true. And, you know, Mikel has kind of bemoaned the man-to-man marking that we're seeing, and maybe that is one of the consequences.

1:27:08Andrew Allen: Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I would love to see... I think we need Saka to raise his level if we're to really push on in, say, the Champions League. I think we're going to need him. So I hope he can find some form. Well, yeah, maybe we can address this next Monday after the Bukayo Saka winner in the Carabao Cup final. That would certainly change the complexion. That would change the complexion. I thought these were a couple of interesting ones. This one, a bit tongue-in-cheek from SelTickleMyArsenal on the Discord. The only question is, will Mikel Arteta ever put his jacket on again? but I also like this one from Rayman he said can we take a second to revel in that moment when Mikel went full primal mode shouting at the referee after he made a shit call for the 20th time I've genuinely never seen him look like that he was seriously wired up and I honestly loved every second of it and I did want to ask you about this because what I thought was quite noticeable about Mikel Arteta on the sideline, apart from expressing his frustration.

1:28:14I think that one was when Eze used his body to block off an Everton player about 84, 85 minutes into the game, and Everton got a free kick in their half and he went absolutely ballistic. I think that's what it was. But what I noticed was that he was primarily sending really positive vibes onto the pitch as much as possible. like he tried to be a really positive presence on the sideline sometimes you can see him get really frustrated you know hands on the head a chance gets missed and he's like oh no but you know every time something happened in this game whether it was max damon shooting over or as a shooting wide or as a um forcing pickford into a save there was this sort of oh no it didn't quite go in but immediately sort of you know come on come on come on you know clapping the players for the endeavor and that kind of stuff.

1:29:08I thought that was really noticeable about Arteta on the sideline the other day. And he is, as we know, a very animated presence there anyway, but that stood out to me a bit more than normal.

1:29:21Andrew Allen: Yeah, and I really enjoyed the Clark Kent Superman moment where he took the coat off. It's him. He is him. Yeah, I think he absolutely knew how big this was. I mean, look, it's sort of, it's an obvious thing to say, they're all big games at this point. But I think he knew the difference between three and one points out of this one was massive. And he was determined for Arsenal to get over the line. I mean, he was very encouraging to the players. He was very encouraging to the crowd as well, like turning around and engaging with them. And I think that's something to say, actually, a stadium that has been criticised at times for being tense or nervy.

1:30:09Andrew Allen: There seemed to be a very positive atmosphere and a sort of real determination to kind of support the team through that difficult end period of the game. Yeah, there was a guy, sorry, the guy on Discord or on Blue Sky who sent us a question. He said, absolute limbs in the clock end. I hoisted my mate aloft and waved him like a euphoric flag. That's from Oliver Adams, oliveradams.bsky.social. So people are picking up their mates and waving them like flags. Incredible. What's going on there? Superhuman feats of strength. Yeah. Like those mums who can turn over cars to save trapped children. Incredible.

1:30:53Andrew Allen: But I, yeah, I saw this question actually, which came from Peter Hinchcliffe, named, of course, in honour of our Ecuadorian left-back. And I wondered what you made of it. He said, The team were once considered too emotional to win the title. I feel that the team overcompensated this season and became too cold and businesslike. The Dalman goal had me out of my seat and running around the house for the first time this season. It seems as though Arteta and the rest of the bench had the same release of emotion, which I haven't seen in quite some time. Will the effect of this emotional dam bursting re-energise the squad and bring back the fun of a title race?

1:31:47Ah, I know exactly where he's coming from there. Mm-hmm. But I don't think the lack of fun is a deliberate thing per se, you know. I do think it's something we've talked about over the last number of weeks about how difficult it is to win games in the Premier League and how tight it's been and the expectations and the fear and all of those things that we've talked about are kind of what makes the experience, you know, what it has been. I just don't think we've had moments like this this season the only other one I can think of is maybe Gabrielle that St. James's Park the late winner there and they were certainly very emotional then maybe the Martinelli equalizer against Man City earlier in the season but they haven't really like the last minute stuff this season has generally gone against us not for us that's generally because we've been in front yeah yeah i mean but not far enough in front

1:32:48Andrew Allen: you know yeah i mean i think what you've got to remember i think it's a really interesting observation about the emotional dam bursting somewhat i think there is truth in that that we have been consciously or unconsciously as a group of players as a group of supporters quite professional in our conduct until this point you know quite quite diligent quite focused quite unwilling to fall into the traps we've fallen into previously about believing too much or hoping too much or foreshadowing you know this is the first season you and I haven't attempted to try and predict the running yeah you know what i mean and i think that's kind of telling in its own way that we've not wanted to second guess anything um but i also think there is a kind of football reality here which is that these moments kind of are born of adversity and i think the the way in which the team has performed has largely protected us from this level of drama Yeah, I mean, think about the Rhys Nelson one.

1:34:09Andrew Allen: Exactly. That's what I had in my mind. 2-0 down, and then we brought it back to win 3-2. This team, you know, touch wood, hasn't been 2-0 down too often, if at all. You know, so it is part of that. But I, like we talked about earlier on, if it is something that Mikel Arteta can channel, that emotional release. Like, you know, the moment felt bigger than 16-year-old Max Dowman scoring a goal, didn't it? You know, that's what I experienced and you experienced. And I think what the players on the pitch experienced, that that moment they knew was more significant than just a really talented kid who they all like and who's been part of the first team squad this season, scoring his first goal and becoming, you know, making history by becoming the youngest ever goal scorer in the Premier League.

1:35:00you know they would have been delighted for him with that on its own if it had been if it had been the third goal in a 3-0 win that was scored in the 75th minute it's not the same reaction their happiness for him would have been exactly the same but because of how it came about in this game and what it meant and the fact that it secured points I mean, I think that's another aspect of it is that very often this season we've had these games that we've won by a single goal and we haven't had that late goal that sort of seals the points in a way which provides you with relief on top of the celebration.

1:35:44Andrew Allen: yeah and I think it's been a more of a sort of steady march towards our destination although you know we've certainly had our unsteady moments than a kind of roller coaster ride and actually I think that's probably a credit to the players in terms of the sort of professionalism they've showed and the way in which they've matured and been able to manage those moments But I am curious, kind of narratively really, but I'm curious to see how this moment of catharsis, how this emotional downbreaking might influence performance moving forward. And I'm even more intrigued in the longer term to sort of see what changes if or when this team does win something.

1:36:37Andrew Allen: You know, what does that do to them as a group? Does that alleviate the pressure in some way? Does that liberate them? Absolutely. It has to be like a huge burden off their shoulders. It has to be. There's no, whether it has like a marked effect on how we play and how we do things, I don't know. But I think for them personally, it's got to be a sense of relief, you know, because you've come second three times in a row. Like that's got to be an itch that you're desperate to scratch from a footballing perspective, you know? But yeah, let's get it done and let's get it over the line. Let's do a couple of quick ones to finish us off here.

1:37:28I enjoyed this one. Apart from the guy waving his mate around like a flag, unless that guy is, like, really flat and thin.

1:37:37Andrew Allen: Yeah. I was going to say, maybe that wasn't a flag I thought I saw. Yeah. Just a very wide, thin man. Yes. Swung around by his feet in the clock end. Anyway, Ian Wright 8 says, after the match on Saturday, after falling two rows ahead of myself in the melee following Jokeres' goal, I've got badly bruised shins and almost certainly a sprained wrist. What's your best football-watching-related injury? Ooh. You should have a fucking... You should be going like, oh, God, which one now? I know, right? I've got my top ten here. That is a good question. I'll tell you what springs to mind. It's at Wembley in the Euros, 2021 Euros, when England beat Denmark.

1:38:37Andrew Allen: Was that a semi-final? Don't ask me about England games. I think it may have been a semi-final. I was in the front row of the upper tier and when England scored or won, I forget the details. The people in the row behind kind of like piled into the back of me. And I remember my knees and my shins got sort of thrust against the concrete wall directly in front of me. And I was pretty badly bruised after that, actually. So, yeah, that's the one that springs to mind. It's not actually an Arsenal-related one. Sure. Well, that's okay. It was football. Have you ever done yourself a mischief? Not really.

1:39:22Really, I remember going, it was actually a game against Everton many years ago. And it was a nil-nil game. Everton made it tough for us. And Robin Van Persie scored a goal in the second half. Really good goal, actually, for a 1-0 win. And I was there sitting beside our friend Esso, who you know. Ah, yes. He picked me up when that goal went in. and I'm pretty sure he cracked a couple of ribs in doing so, or at least bruised my ribs. But you can live with that because it's a celebration. The other one that sprung to mind was I remember going to a game with my brother, going to an Arsenal-Liverpool game.

1:40:03I think it was the one where Aaron Ramsey scored a really nice kind of volley over the goalkeeper. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Remember that one? So we're out after the game somewhere. I think it was the... Listen, there are people out there who will know more about the toilets in bars on Upper Street than I do, but I'm almost certain, in a good way, I'm almost certain it was the King's Head on Upper Street. Is that the one that has a bit of a theatre in it? Yeah, yeah, it's a theatre pub. And the toilets are downstairs, right? Probably, yeah, I think so. I think so. Anyway, whichever pub it was that had the toilets downstairs, I opened the door, took a step, but didn't put my foot on a step.

1:40:43I put my foot on fresh air and went all the way to the bottom without touching anything. And honestly, to this day, I have no idea how I didn't break every bone in my body. I just sort of landed there and then got up and went, that was lucky. So that could have been.

1:41:04Andrew Allen: It's, you know, you take risks. I am where my season ticket is in the North Bank. I'm on an aisle. I'm the seat on an aisle. and frequently if we score, I will descend the stairs, contravening much of the safety advice in the stadium. But that is risky to run the steps in the wake of a goal when pretty much everyone on an aisle has had the same thought. You quite often see people after those celebrations staggering back up the stairs, clutching smashed mobile phones. But so far, I've been okay. So let's see if I survive. I'm in the crowd tomorrow night. So let's see if I survive the Champions League round of 16.

1:41:50Final one, seeing as we're talking about a 16-year-old, arsenalaustin.bsky.social says, what was the coolest thing you did when you were 16? I blew off my friend's eyebrows playing with a can of gasoline and ate two pounds of mozzarella sticks in one sitting.

1:42:09Andrew Allen: Wow. I wonder if that's what Max did on his day off. on sunday um well i don't think i was doing many cool things at 16 i've got a level with you guys you'll be shocked to hear i'm not sure that was my coolest era um it was mainly warhammer and championship manager um i'm not sure either of those qualify what about you i mean listen it It was so long ago, it's very hard to remember. I do remember that when I was 16, I got my first job working in pirate radio in Dublin and the radio station was up the mountains because you only needed a very small transmitter to be able to broadcast all the way across Dublin city.

1:42:57And every day I would cycle and do a show on this radio station and cycle back home. But you had to cycle up the mountain to get there. But obviously coming back home was great because, well, you know, you're going downhill and you could whiz downhill. The issue was that the brakes on my bike were not very good. You know, I'm sure you did the same and many people did the same. Shoe brakes, right? You'd use your shoes and put your foot on the ground to stop when you could have just gone to the bike shop and said, could you fix the brakes on this? But, you know, you're 16. and I remember whizzing down one day and I don't quite remember what happened but the car ahead stopped suddenly and I sort of whizzed to one side of the car and then whizzed back in front like I was in the fucking matrix or something as another car was coming straight towards me I'm not sure it was necessarily cool but I didn't die and I probably should have so I I think that is quite cool, no?

1:44:02That is actually. You escaped death. I escaped certain death because I whizzed out without looking because I'm a 16-year-old idiot. And the other car was coming in as one of those where, I don't know, I just sort of turned the handlebars and, yeah, lucky. I actually feel a bit sick thinking about that now. I haven't thought about that in years. Boy, wow. Well, there you go. I don't advise anyone to do that. Get your brakes checked on your bike, kids. the perils of being 16.

1:44:32Andrew Allen: That's it. That's it. Don't let Max Down get on a bike, for God's sake. I don't think you'll be allowed. Who was the Chelsea... Was it Carlo Couticini? Yes. Who had a motorbike and he got injured. Yeah, like it was in his contract that he wasn't allowed to ride a motorbike and he got injured riding a motorbike. Am I... Oh, dear. But could well have been Chelsea goalkeeper. I don't remember the motorbike specifically, but sounds plausible. Sounds plausible. And indeed, anyway, 16 was a long, long time ago. And fair play to Max Dermon for doing what I would have loved to have done when I was 16.

1:45:09But of course, drinking cans of beer in the field with your mates isn't really the best preparation for a professional footballing career. Don't think.

1:45:20Andrew Allen: No. No. I'm sure someone's making that point to Max. Yeah, I'm sure they are. Whatever you do, don't do that. Just keep doing what you're doing. All right, listen, I think we better go and get this out to everybody. And hopefully, hopefully everybody will have enjoyed this episode and enjoyed reliving what was a very, very special day at Arsenal on Saturday. A 2-0 win over Everton. We'll talk a bit more about what else happened in the Premier League this weekend over on Patreon later this afternoon. We'll have an episode of The 30 for you, looking back at all the weekend's Premier League action.

1:45:53For now, though, folks, take it easy. Go watch more replays. and we will catch you on the next one.

1:45:59Andrew Allen: Bye-bye.