Arsecast Extra Episode 687 - 23.03.2026

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0:40Hello and welcome to another Arsecast Extra. As always, we're James from GunnerBlog. James, good morning to you. Good morning, Andrew. How are you today? Yeah, so this heady mix of slightly sanguine, but also fucked off. Do you know what I just did before we started recording? I went back to listen to the start of the Arse Cast Extra when we last lost a League Cup final to Manchester City in 2018. And we spent, well, I spent about 40 seconds wishing everybody a good day, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whatever time, to sort of delay the inevitable of getting into a discussion about that particular game.

1:22So I think we're kind of in similar territory at this point. I guess, I mean, look, it's not the worst idea because everything is relative. And I think the general picture in 2018 was certainly a bit more bleak. But yeah, I do feel quite, I personally feel quite low about this one. I know there's all the caveats around it of it's just the Carabao Cup. Sure. So it's, you know, it's not the biggest prize on offer this season, But I went to Wembley hoping, really hoping and really looking forward to the prospect of an Arsenal win and thinking it was very much there for us to do. So it's a big anti-climax, I think, to have been beaten.

2:07I think that is quite correct. You know, and I know that probably later on there might be a bit of discussion about like, well, you know, it's not the biggest prize. We've got to respond. And I accept all of those things, right? And I accept that there are bigger things at play for Arsenal this season. But like you, I was really excited about this. I thought that we had the team and we had the sort of quality to go and win this game, which I think is not unreasonable. And to lose it and to lose it in the way that we lost it, I think not only was very disappointing, but it sort of scratched at some old Guardiola-inflicted, Manchester City-inflicted wounds.

2:50a bit, you know? So while I completely agree that there is nothing we can do about this now, that we do have to look forward and all of that kind of stuff, I also think at the same time, it's perfectly fine for Arsenal fans, me, you, and everybody else who's listening, and everybody's mileage on this may vary, to be annoyed or frustrated or disappointed or upset about losing a final, a high-profile final at Wembley, even if it is the fourth priority in the league or in the season that you're on. Yesterday was the biggest game of our season, you know, and it was just crap, really. And that's annoying.

3:34We'll get into all of that, but, you know, I sort of – I know some people listen for catharsis, and maybe we'll get there. Maybe come the end of this episode, we'll have talked ourselves around a little bit and everything else. But I sort of feel like that, like, what do we do now going into an interlouge? That can kind of wait. I think it's fair and right to talk about what we did and didn't do well yesterday. And ultimately, what we did and didn't do is what cost us the game. Yeah. And also, it can be pretty cathartic to just sort of have a bit of a moan about losing a big game. I mean, and look, it may prove to be just a parting shot from Pep.

4:16You know, I know you say it opened some old wounds and who knows, like this may be a footnote in some respects on the overall season, but it was painful on the day. It was very painful on the day. It still hurts, I think, this morning. And to be honest, what grieves me, what annoys me as an Arsenal fan, It's like, I'm irritated that this plays into all the narrative that exists around Arsenal as kind of nearly men. And look, we may put that right come May, but it does mean another two months probably of putting up with that sort of talk. And that's two months too long for my liking. No, yeah, I think that's fair.

5:03You know, we had a chance, you know, I think it's one of those that if we win it yesterday, you know, everyone's going to say, well, they still have work to do. Nobody, you know, proves anything by winning the Carabao Cup, you know, and it's that sort of double-edged sword. But at the same time, it kind of gets the monkey off your back a little bit. It had been six years since Arsenal won a trophy. It's, you know, well, heading up on six years now. But, you know, this was an opportunity to lift some silverware. And I think we talked, you know, about what that might mean in terms of maybe lifting some of the pressure from the title race, but also for these players, you know, for this team that's come very close and has been very, very good and very consistent, whatever issues you might have with how we play.

5:45But generally speaking, this has been a hugely consistent team that I think everybody recognizes is capable of doing better than they did yesterday. And we are where we are in the Premier League, not by accident. Right. So I think the benefit for these players and for the manager and for the fans would have been fantastic yesterday if we'd won that trophy and that we didn't and that we didn't do it in the manner in which we did it or didn't do it, you know, is kind of painful as well. Yeah, and I think as well, like, it's easy after a loss to be like, well, it was the fourth priority. But I think that's a bit disingenuous.

6:24I think once we got into that semi-final, it really shot up in the priority rankings and probably above the FA Cup because it was so close, so attainable at that point in time. And I actually think even though Arsenal are still fighting on multiple fronts and have bigger prizes to play for, I think this was a bigger game for Arsenal than it was for Man City. I just think after six years without silverware, the opportunity to end that way and win something had greater significance to us than another League Cup for City. So I think it makes it doubly disappointing to underperform in the way that we did and indeed to lose in the way that we did.

7:11Yeah. I mean, I think there's something in that that maybe ties into the discussion I'm sure we'll have about the big team selection decision, which was a goalkeeper. But obviously there was a bit of a blow beforehand. Rumours whirling around a few hours before kickoff that Eberici Eze was out and Juri and Timber was out. Both of them. Well, Timber was seen in training. Eze was not seen in training. He went off the other night with a bit of a knock. Are you aware or do you have any information about whether the injury that Eza has is connected to him going off in the game in midweek? Or was it something that happened distinct from that?

7:55I've seen people say or seen it reported that it was an issue that happened in training. Do we know definitively? Does it matter, I guess, at this stage? Good question. I mean, I know it's a calf injury. my assumption was that it was the one he picked up against Bayer Leverkusen you know he had that kind of run where I think he ended up going it alone having attempts at goal when he had options either side he sort of ran half the length of the pitch and then was withdrawn my assumption it was connected to that but I don't know definitively I mean Mikel Arteta said he's due to have another scan in a few days I guess maybe they're waiting for some swelling or inflammation to clear but he has withdrawn from England duty now won't go to the international break and there's kind of mixed reports on how long he's going to be out I guess in that respect the international break is well timed for him it'll eat up a couple of weeks of any rehab but yeah that was a big blow it was interesting as well because he did the Sky preview interview and I had people, fans writing in and asking me Did Arsenal know he was injured when he did that Sky interview?

9:09Is this another level of sort of obscuring from Mikel Arteta to send injured players in to do pre-game interviews? But, you know, he's in good form. You've all read the headlines about this being his time of year. Wembley has kind of been his stadium as well to a certain extent. Look what he did in the FA Cup final last year, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So that was a blow, especially, I think, in the wider context of Martin Odegaard not making it either. Martin Odegaard, and I think, you know, perhaps overlooked a little bit is Mikel Moreno, who's missing and who could potentially have filled that role yesterday.

9:47It meant that Kai Havertz came in. And listen, it's not a bad replacement per se, but I also think if we're looking at Kai Havertz and thinking about where he's been best for Arsenal, it has been further forward rather than in midfield. You know, I like Havertz. I prefer Havertz up front than in midfield. And I think, you know, an issue that we had yesterday, certainly without Odegaard, without, as it was, a lack of technical quality, that played into some of the other performances and some of the other issues that we had. Victor Jokeres starting up front, Trossard out wide, Saka on the right, Rice Zubimendi.

10:33Beyond that, there weren't any real surprises in terms of the team. And there was, to be fair, a very early chance for Kai Havertz set up by Martin Zubimendi. I kind of think that a fully match fit and match sharp Kai Havertz takes that chance like a step earlier. and maybe gives the goalkeeper less chance to save it. I think what we're looking at, certainly with more than one player in this team right now, is a sort of lack of, how would I put it, a need to take more touches than is necessary. And it sort of makes it easier for the opposition to close you down in key moments. I think that was a smart pass from Zubimendi.

11:24Havertz saw the goalkeeper coming, tried to lift it, but I think he could have taken that shot a bit earlier. Maybe Akai Havertz had been playing all season rather than Akai Havertz who's just been back and in and out of the team for the last few weeks takes that chance differently. Yeah, it's a really good chance, isn't it? A nice little first-time pass from Martin Zubimendi through to Kai Havertz. I think Trafford gets out quickly and smothers the ball effectively, but yeah, neither Havertz nor Saka, who had a couple of follow attempts, really managed to get any lift on the ball. And I think that was what was required in the situation.

12:02I actually think the third save from Trafford is maybe the best. He sort of pokes out a boot to get to Saka's rebound attempt. But yeah, big, big moment in the game. And I thought we started pretty well, I have to say. I thought, you know, it was a very direct approach at times, but it was one that seemed to have City a little bit on the back foot. You know, Jokic has had a couple of good runs into the channel. And in that first 15 minutes, I felt all right about what I was seeing. I think as the half went on, City came back into it. And actually, maybe I'm over-indexing it slightly, but I feel like the booking of Incapier was quite a big moment in that half.

12:50because their threat then seemed to come predominantly down that side. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think it's quite a harsh booking as well. I agree. On Encapier. It looks bad in real time. Mm-hmm. But on, you know, on the replay, because he sort of steams into him and he's got that very aggressive front-footed style. But when you see the replay, he doesn't really catch him. No, not at all. It seems odd, you know, to sort of put a shift in the game down to a yellow card for a left back, which is, you know, not uncommon. But before the yellow card, possession was more or less equal, 52 to 40 or 53 % City to 47 % Arsenal.

13:35After the booking and until halftime, possession then went to 32 % for Arsenal, 68 % for Manchester City. so it's listen maybe it's it's as you say over indexing the impact of that but certainly city came down that side a bit more i think in capier struggled a little bit although it took until the 44th minute for city to have their first attempt on goal like city made it really difficult for arsenal to play in the areas that we like to play but arsenal also made it very very difficult for manchester city to create anything of no And the first effort was like a Jeremy Doku shot from outside the box, which was fairly easily blocked.

14:19And then I think there was a cross to the back post. Haaland got a header, looped it over. But I think he had Ben White and Incappier basically pushing him out of the way, to be honest. Pretty good defending from Arsenal. So it wasn't as if all that possession from Manchester City was putting us under a great deal of pressure. I think we held them at bay defensively really, really well, although you could see maybe the seeds of how we might struggle because of the way City set up when we had the ball at the back, right? That line of four players, which was designed to cut out the passing lanes, which I think we struggled with in the first half a little bit, but certainly after the break, struggled with a great deal more.

15:03yeah i mean if you're on social media you will have seen the kind of compilation videos of city deploying this tactic have you seen them no i haven't just sort of had the the gumption to watch those again you know because i saw it in real time and that's kind of enough for me to be i mean when you see them kind of compiled together it is incredibly striking it's sort of a staggeringly simple but highly effective move from City where they sort of play in this almost a 4-2-4 block and seem to sort of say to Gabriel, Saliba and Kepa, yeah, you can have it. You can have it and try and play through this.

15:53And we couldn't find a way. We tried a few options. Like I saw Bukayo Saka dropping deep and central, almost into a kind of number six position to try and help us get out. And I think it's an area like this where someone like Martin Odegaard would have been incredibly useful. I think for all the talk about Kepa's mistake on the cross, this might be where we miss David Ryan most. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because there is that focus on the mistake and we'll come to that. And it's a terrible moment for him. But I do think the issue with the ball at feet was a difficult one for Arsenal to deal with.

16:37It's not just on the goalkeeper, to be fair. But you wouldn't have been privy to this, I guess, because you were in the stadium and you were working. But on TV, in the second half, there was a moment where, you know, City started that second half really well. Arsenal started the second half badly. we allowed City to push onto us and we couldn't really get out we kept giving the ball away and we couldn't play it through the lines when we did have it there was a moment where Kepa had the ball at his feet and he sort of rolled it this way and rolled it that way and rolled it the other way and let me just say for the record by the way I find it quite frustrating when David Raya does this as well yeah but on the commentary maybe the worst part of yesterday was me actually agreeing with Gary Neville, who was saying, this is not helping Arsenal at all.

17:25It really is not helping. And I think we maybe have to take into account as well, there was a moment with Kepa when he came out of the box early in the second half and picked up a yellow card for a foul on Doku, which, you know, I don't know if that sort of increased the jitters on him, but it certainly increased the jitters on me when he had the ball at his feet. It's frustrating, isn't it? I mean, I think back to the Everton game at the weekend, right? Exactly. I think we talked about this. Yeah, we talked about it. But what Everton did was press. They pushed forward and Raya had the ability to play the pass to Gabriel.

18:02And we talked about Gabriel's good pass over to Mosquera. And from there, we get the goal, right? But City didn't press. City didn't push. City just said, okay, you have the ball there. And we'll prevent you from getting the ball into the players who can actually do anything with it. And I think, I don't know, listen, it felt like we were nervous or under pressure, which I think we were. We were under pressure in the first 15 minutes of that second half. City were knocking on the door without really creating anything. But I also think we contributed to that pressure ourselves by not being able to play through or play passes beyond that City press.

18:47which I think Raya might well have been more capable of doing. Yeah, I think that's certainly fair, Rhi Raya. I also think that the players we had on the pitch and the coach we had on the touchline should have been able to, in the course of that 90 minutes, find a solution to that situation. And, you know, Mikel Arteta had other options at his disposal. He could have changed it earlier. He could have switched it up. What do you think he could or should have done earlier? Well, for a start, listen, I accept that he was hamstrung to an extent. He had no Odegaard. He had no Eze. He didn't have his most technically secure players in the middle of the park.

19:33I do think that both Declan Rice and Martin Zubemendy could have done more to make themselves available to find that space. I felt they allowed themselves to be blocked off almost too easily at times, which forced us to go out wide or long. I think that he could have shown a bit of imagination. I mean, I thought Ricardo Calafiori was going to come on at halftime for Hinkappier anyway because of the booking. But as soon as he did come on, you saw him drifting into those pockets in behind the City press and giving Arsenal an outlet that Hinkappier is never going to give you. Is there not an argument to be made that that change was made at 2-0, therefore the dynamic of the game had changed sufficiently at that point for Arsenal to be able to operate that way more easily rather than reacting or being more proactive, let's say?

20:26I mean, I agree with you. I was surprised not to see Calafiore at halftime. It's not that I think Nkappie was really bad, but he was on a booking and he was struggling a little bit against Semenyo. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, listen, he may be our best defender left back, but I think that he was stretched in this game, albeit against a good player and an informed player. The other thing I think about this sort of issue of playing through the press is that, and I don't wish this to sound too critical, because I obviously recognise how well we're doing this season and how effective we've been in so many games.

21:03But I do think that against the very best opposition, you do see that we are a little risk averse in the way that we play. I think we didn't want to take chances. And I'm not saying we should have played Myles Lewis-Gelley in this game at all, but he is a player who can beat a press or who can invite pressure and then dribble away from it. And the fact that he doesn't play, I think to me is a little bit indicative of kind of the manager's sensibilities, which is we don't take chances. And watching Arsenal and watching City, the way they played through the midfield, the way they progressed the ball, I was like, they take risks.

21:43They take chances. And if we can avoid it, we do. And I'd like to have seen us be braver on the ball. I think that's so interesting as well, because if you're going to be, let's say a bit risk averse, then what you're looking for is control, right? What you're looking for is security. And to me, there just was not any security in possession in that Arsenal team yesterday. I think I looked at the numbers. Pass accuracy in this game. Incapié, 62%. Zubimendi, 69%, which is low for a guy in his position with his quality, I think. Havertz, 55%. Trossard, 61%. Jokeres, 43%. You know, I think we know what Victor Jokeres is in terms of the kind of striker that he is, and he's never going to be a guy who holds it up and has a million touches.

22:47But when a striker completes three passes out of seven in 90-odd minutes or whatever it is, that issue or that sort of lack of technical quality up front is completely compounded when you have a lack of technical quality behind him. And that was evident yesterday in our midfield and our forward players. Bakayo Saka was slightly better, I think, like 72 % past completion. But, you know, it sort of flies in the face of that risk-averse observation that you've made. Like if we are going to be risk-averse, just keep the fucking ball. But we couldn't do that. Yeah. I think I mean it in the sense of like, try the more difficult pass or, you know, draw the man and try and go beyond him.

23:38And again, that comes down to quality. I just don't think we had the, whatever it is, you know, whether it's, I find it hard to believe it's talent level. I think it's kind of a mixture of instruction, conviction. You know, we just didn't seem to want to kind of take the game City in that way until we were 2-0 down, I think. And then it's sort of City allowing you. It's a whole different game. Yeah, City allowing you to do that a little bit. Yeah. So they figured us out there. They gave us a problem that we couldn't solve. And, you know, Mikel Arteta will be reviewing those tapes this morning, I imagine.

24:22And he'll have to come up with something because, you know, he's got a game at the Etihad to be thinking about. All right. Well, look, we were under pressure in that first period of the second half where, like, we didn't win second balls. We couldn't progress the ball out of our half. When we did get it, we gave it away very quickly. Can I just chime in? I was sat next to Art de Rocher, who, you know, very astute, good observations in the game. And he said to me, look at the two kickoffs. You know, you look at Arsenal's kickoff for the first half. Big high ball up and under, five players running up the right-hand side.

24:59Ball went out of play. City's kickoff for the second half, played it short, knocked it about, gave everyone a touch on the ball, grew into the game, grew comfortable. gain control. Listen, of course, it's a bit reductive, but I do think in some ways that was the story of the game. I think that's a great observation. Keep the ball. Keep the ball. I mean, 80 % possession for Manchester City between halftime and the time they scored the goal. 62 % pass completion success rate for Arsenal. 86 % for Manchester City. You know, they got the ball. They kept the ball. we couldn't get near it and when we did get near it they got it back and they put us under pressure put us under pressure i mean that can happen that can happen in games you can have periods where you're kind of under the cosh and i think what we've seen from this arsenal team is an ability maybe to ride out situations like that but then you you make a mistake and a big mistake and City get a goal and the first goal in any game is so important.

26:07The first goal in a final, particularly when it's as... I mean, this was not a game with a lot of quality forward play from either side, you know? And our centre-halves, I thought, did great on Erling Haaland throughout the game, you know? I thought Saliba in particular was excellent. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, if we're going to talk about Jokeres not having many touches or involvement, I'd be curious to see how his numbers stack up against Haaland because he had a hard time too. And like you, I was thinking, yes, we're being made to defend our own box here, but there are a few teams you'd back to do that like Arsenal.

26:49If anybody can, it's us. And then the goalkeeper drops, unfortunately, a massive rick and finals tend to be about moments. And that is a huge moment in the game. I'm glad we didn't talk about it first because I would never want to suggest or imply that Kepa is the reason we lost this game. I think City were pretty much better than us throughout and across the pitch. But, yeah, there's no doubt it has a massive impact. For sure. I think the analysis of this game would be completely unfair if it just pointed all the fingers at Kepa. Collectively, we weren't good. Individually, too many players were below par.

27:36But I can't escape the notion or the idea that the spotlight on the goalkeeper and the goalkeeping choice is one that, you know, it's a risk. I think it's a huge risk to pick your second choice goalkeeper in a cup final. And you talked about this game maybe meaning more for Arsenal than for Manchester City. And I think that's right. Pep picked his second choice goalkeeper, which some people are saying, well, you know, look, Pep, he picked his number two. His number two is a£35 million goalkeeper, by the way, that they bought in the summer before they bought Donnarumma. Yeah. But I also think there was more at stake for Mikel Arteta in this game than for Pep Guardiola.

28:27Pep Guardiola has won the League Cup more times than any other manager now. I think he'd won it four times until yesterday, and that was number five. Arsenal were looking for a first trophy in six years, and Mikel Arteta was looking for his first silverware with this iteration of his team. So I think for him, it was far riskier to pick his second-choice goalkeeper than it was for Pep Guardiola to pick his. because Pep can just say, well, I've won this tournament loads of times and Arteta didn't have that safety net of success, the track record of trophies that Guardiola has for making that decision.

29:08Where did you stand before the game? I mean, I think we all thought that he was going to pick Kepa, right? That seemed to be the prevailing wisdom that it was going to be Kepa. I would have picked David Raya. I'm not the manager of Arsenal Football Club. I can accept that there are man management issues and squad management issues and decisions that managers make, which they feel are for the good of, I don't know if everyone is the right word. This felt to me like a sentimental decision from a manager who very, very rarely makes sentimental decisions. and ultimately it's a risk and if that risk backfires which it did yesterday because of that kept a mistake then you have no place to hide regardless of how you want to try and justify it post-game totally and mistakes happen and anyone can make an error you know david raya could well have made an error but i think i think michael altetta got this one very wrong um and and i you know i'm occasionally accused of being sort of someone who sits on the fence or is merely mouth i have a really strong opinion on this i think this was absolutely the wrong call and i was listening to michael altetta afterwards he said i have to do what i feel is right which is honest and which is fair and i was like who are you and what have you done with michael like it's a terrible time for this manager to grow a conscience because you know he is an utterly ruthless coach and has been so ruthless across six years at arsenal that to develop a sentimental streak for Kepa of all people, I just don't understand.

31:03I take the point about City played Trafford, but as you say, they bought Trafford before Donnarumma. I think he was told he was going to be number one at City and then Donnarumma arrives. Trafford is also the future of the Manchester City goalkeeping position, if they can keep him. Kepa is absolutely not that. No. Kepa is a guy who was brought in to be a backup, who's already 31, who frankly, I think there's a decent chance won't be here next season anyway, because he probably want to be a number one somewhere sooner rather than later. And why we've made this degree of investment, sort of emotional investment in him to give him this game, I do not know.

31:49And the other point about Trafford, by the way, is that Trafford's actually better on the ball than Donnarumma. Quite a lot better on the ball. City can play their game with Trafford in goal. Arguably, they can play it better. We can't play our game. We can't conduct our build-up as well with Kepa as we can with David Raya. And I just think it's a final. You've got to pick your best team. David Ryan, not only is he your best goalkeeper, he's been one of your best players. So I don't get it. I don't get it. And a lot of Arsenal fans I've spoken to do get it. And they say, you've got to be fair to Kepa.

32:34But I mean, the responsibility Mikel Arteta has isn't to Kepa. It's to the team in general. You know, how many times have we said on this podcast, whether you agree with the decision or not, we've always sort of made the point that Mikel Arteta will do whatever he thinks is the best thing to win a game of football, right? Yeah. A player left out, a player brought in. You can always, I think, whether it goes right or wrong, count on the idea that in his mind, he made decisions that he thought were the best ones to try and win a game of football. And I don't, for the life of me, understand how you can apply that criteria to the selection of Kepa over David Raya yesterday.

33:31Like the responsibility was to win a trophy for Arsenal. And if that means Kepa is a bit sad at the end of the day, sorry. you know we have one of the best goalkeepers in the world in david raya who hasn't been perfect all season he has made mistakes and as you say goalkeepers can make mistakes but i think when you're going into a final when you're going into a big game like this you know he picked rice and zubamendi over norgard who played quite a lot in the efl cup right why Why? Because they are better than, you know, on paper and people might argue whatever in the cold light of day to day after the way they played.

34:18Maybe it's a more difficult judgment call to make. But I think if you're picking a team, if you're sitting down and picking your team, are you picking Rice and Zubomendi over Norgaard? Yes. Why? Because, you know, they're better players, you know, are capable of giving you more. right so you pick your team in midfield in every other area where you think this is the absolute best choice this is the best player i have for this position that can't apply to keppa and i don't want to go in like two-footed on him he made a mistake mistakes happen it was an awful error from an experienced goalkeeper by the way i mean i don't want to downplay it i think it's a really, really crap piece of goalkeeping from him.

35:01But that happens. But as we said, there's no hiding place for the manager when you make that decision. Like at the worst, what you want, if you make that decision is at the end of the game, nobody's talking about Kepa because, you know, he was sort of neutral. Arsenal won the trophy and you're like, well, you know, it doesn't matter now in the grand scheme of things. But when the worst happens, And that's the sort of worst potential outcome for making a risky decision is that the player who nobody other than you would have picked for this game makes a mistake, which basically hands the impetus in a cup final to Manchester City.

35:42You've got to own that. You've got to own that. And I think, you know, one thing that frustrated me or annoyed me a little bit afterwards was, you know, we had one good chance in the game. Well, maybe the Calafiori one after he came on wasn't bad. I think Trossard was really close to getting a toe on that, and it actually clipped the post and went beyond. But really, the best chance we had in this game was in the seventh or eighth minute through Kai Havertz. And I feel like Mikel Arteta's tendency to over-index that moment, that attacking moment where he goes, well, you've got to take those chances, you know, games, fine margins, blah, blah, blah, when actually we should be focusing on the fact we didn't make more chances like that.

36:26You know, I don't really get the sort of, I can't square that circle of like being critical of not taking one chance, but defending a decision which ultimately backfired on him. Yeah, I mean, he loves that one, Mikael, especially if it's Gabby Martinelli who's missed the chance. He always names him. He always goes, yeah, Martinelli should have scored. It was Havertz this time, but he does like to kind of point out a solitary miss in a game. I think, believe it or not, I haven't finished on Kepa.

37:03Hang on, hang on. I'm just going to go make a cup of tea, put my feet up here and now you get stuck in. What also annoys me, I think it's a great point about Norgard, by the way, like he plays the first three rounds of the cup and then we never see him in the competition again. There's no sense of like we have to reward an outfield player. I don't even think Kepa played well in the competition. Like, I don't even think he was vital to us getting through. We had a penalty shootout where I think the opposition scored about a dozen penalties before he saved one, as far as I recall. I thought he struggled against Chelsea in the semi-final.

37:36I was surprised he didn't come in for the second leg of the semi-final, Raya. So, I just don't get it. I don't recognise Mikel Arteta there. and he's spoken about how one thing he's learned is like the sort of emotional man management aspect of the game has become more part of his repertoire you know having started out from a very tactical technical perspective and maybe this is kind of part of that evolution but i think he went too far i just think he went too far and he got it wrong he got it wrong and like it'll be fascinating to see. I sort of am curious, I mean obviously I hope we get to the FA Cup final for many reasons, but if we do you know, would he do the same again?

38:25I hope not, personally. No, I mean I think this has to be an aberration because it is it's so out of character for him not to you know, be ruthless as you say, or to make the tough decision for the benefit of the team. This felt like a decision that was more to benefit Kepa or his relationship with Kepa. You know, maybe there are wider issues within the squad as well. Maybe all the players wanted Kepa to start. I don't know. But, like, you can't justify that decision when you lose a final and your keeper makes a big mistake, which hands the first goal to Manchester City. By the way, Kepa's Carabao Cup final record is something to behold at this point in time.

39:13Well, it's nearly as bad as Arsenal's. And I should say, I feel for him as well. Like, it's the biggest game of his season. Of that, there is no doubt. And he's dropped a clangor. Yeah, he's got to be feeling absolutely crap. But, you know, sympathy will be in short supply. You know, on a human level, sure. But, like, it's just frustrating, isn't it? When you kind of feel like this is an Arsenal team that, with Raya in goal, I don't think he makes that mistake. I think we're a bit better in possession at the back. And I think potentially we're capable of riding out that period of Manchester City pressure and maybe nicking a goal.

39:53Who knows? Yeah. And I think things like that moment where he tears out of his goal and brings Doku down against the yellow card. In a final, those can be quite big sort of momentum swings, I think, moments like that. And they can affect confidence and stability of a team, emotional stability in those moments. So yeah, I think he was definitely a big factor on the day. The second goal, I mean, again, you look at both of these goals and like I said, it was not a high quality game from an attacking perspective, you know, from either team. City were gifted the first goal. I think the second goal is very, very preventable as well.

40:35I think Declan Rice should immediately engage the player rather than point at Gabriel. Gabriel sort of stands there a little bit. We don't do enough to block that cross coming in. And Nico O 'Reilly runs off the back of Bakayosaka, who's quite flat-footed and heads home. 2-0, two goals inside, what is it, four or five minutes. And that really felt like game over. And if the first one was a gift, I think the second one defensively, Arsenal were well below the standards that they've set this season. yeah I think it was too easy for City down their right hand side and Nico O 'Reilly makes a run from close to the halfway line really he's pretty much untracked Martin Zubmendi is the closest to him gets overpowered really at the back post and at 2-0 I think I turned to Art and said that's the game you know against a team of this quality, that's incredibly difficult to overturn, I think.

41:42I'm just looking at the goal again. I mean, he runs off Saka. It's not, I mean, Zubamendi's a sort of, oh no, it's Saliba there. It's Saka, it's on Saka, that one for me, rather than Zubamendi. Just unaware. I mean, it's good movement from Nico O 'Reilly and I think the header is very good as well. just guides it back across. But I think we have to do more to stop that cross coming in in the first place, you know. But yeah, I think... You're right. I was getting confused about Zubimendi. I think it was maybe the first goal. Zubimendi on the first goal. I mean, again, he had no chance really to react because of the mistake.

42:21But yeah, 2-0, I was like, I don't know how we're getting back into this one. We did make a change, a couple of changes. Calafiore came on, was positive. Maduweke came on

42:36I don't really have anything positive to say about what he did it was quite chaotic yeah but not bad it was bad chaos not the good Yaya Sanogo off the bench Wembley chaos that we kind of needed we did have moments we should point out I mean that Calafuri volley as you say clips the post Gabriel Jesus comes on and heads against the crossbar. But, you know, it never looked like we were going to trouble City, really, to be honest. And I think they were pretty comfortable. And when you consider some of the defensive absences that they had as well, it was disappointing. Diaz on the day, Gahie Cupside.

43:19You know, the introduction maybe of Martinelli. I mean, he wasn't good when he came on either, but I was sort of surprised that it didn't happen a bit more, a bit earlier, to be honest. Yeah, Ian Wright was calling for that on the TV coverage, wasn't he? Right, I didn't see that. As soon as the game was over, I turned the TV off, so I didn't see any of the post-game restrictions. I think he was making the case that, you know, big pitch, space to run into, could have suited Martinelli. I mean, look, our bench was a little weaker than we would have liked with a few absentees that we've mentioned, particularly in kind of creative midfield areas.

43:56Starting Havertz as well and Jochrez, I think, left us without maybe the dynamism from the bench that you'd want in attack. I think as well we had players who sort of Havertz and White who haven't played a great deal this season kind of ran out of steam a little bit, you know. Yeah, and overall I just think we have been the most consistent team in this league. I think in some ways we're the most complete team when you look at kind of every facet of the game. But I think when City turn it on, on the ball particularly, I think they're better than us. I think they're a level above us in terms of their use of the ball, their ability to keep it, move it.

44:47And they did turn it on for about 20 minutes in this game. They really turned it on after half time. And that was enough. Yeah, we sort of aided and abetted their win, you know, with the way we defended and with the mistake from the goalkeeper. Like they were better and they certainly were on top in that opening period of the second half. But God, you know, you can't do what we did and expect to win a final. And I think you put yourself in a position where it becomes too difficult to react. The options weren't there on the bench. I do think there is a wider discussion to be had about midfield and about who we had in midfield or who we didn't have in midfield.

45:31I know he's come in for a lot of stick this season, but Christ, if you couldn't see what Martin Odegaard, a fit Martin Odegaard could potentially bring to this Arsenal team yesterday. You know, we missed him. We missed him and we missed Eberechi Eze. And, you know, I sort of have this maybe crazy, utopian, fantasy idea of an Arsenal team where, you know, you could play a deep-lying midfielder, but you could also play Odegaard and Eze behind a striker where you really, really increase the technical quality in the opposition half without losing too much defensively. because this is a really well-organized, generally very well-disciplined team, but which I think is just a bit, how would you say, industrial, you know, rather than creative.

46:29And I think that was evident yesterday to me, that we missed Kraft. We missed, you know, I'm not saying that what they give you is the same, let's say, is Bernardo Silva or Ryan Cherky or Jeremy Doku in terms of sort of outright wing play. But, like, it didn't stick at all with Havertz. It didn't stick at all with Saka. It didn't work for Trossard. It didn't work for Jokeres. You know, when your front four aren't there, how the fuck are you going to win a game? Yeah, totally agree. And I think the team was made to look quite blocky, you know, industrial, to use your word. And, you know, you've got the two centre-halves, you've got Rice and Zubermendi in front, you've got Jokeres and Havertz through the middle.

47:21I think they're all sort of incredibly imposing sort of physical players. Even Zubermendi, I think, is very physical in his style. but I don't think any of them displayed the kind of technical standards or skills that you would, that you'd need really. No. On a game, in a game like this one. I also think they are capable of better, by the way. I'm not saying that there's like, this is like who they are and who they always will be. I think there are players out there who are capable of much better. And yesterday was maybe one of the worst 45 minutes of football that we've put in all season, which is a terrible time to do it, given what was at stake.

48:01But I also think sometimes the balance of the team, I think we have to accept that, you know, the injuries have had an issue there. So it's not completely like this is exactly what Mikel Arteta wants from his side. I think if Odegaard's fit, he plays. If Ezez fit, he potentially plays. You know, he's got a choice between those two. but you know without them you've got to find different ways to do it and we just couldn't Yeah and I think you were right to point out that Marino is a loss as well in that middle of the park Or up front Yeah indeed, well there is always a kind of symbiotic relationship as well between how well you play and how well the opposition play and I had Art to my left but I had Sam Lee on my right our Man City correspondent and you know he said this is the best City have played this season.

48:53And we have to bear that in mind. Like, I think this was a really, really good performance from their perspective. And granted, some of that's on us. But I think a lot of their players turned up. You know, I thought Rodri bossed that midfield, to be honest with you. I thought Bernardo was as elusive as he can be. Is annoying. Yeah, and annoying, yeah. I thought, you know, Doku and Cherky were menaces. Like they turned up, their players turned up in a way that ours didn't. I think that is just something we have to acknowledge. Yeah. Yeah. It wasn't a good day for Arsenal. Yeah. A really frustrating day.

49:36I think that's fair to say that Man City had a good game plan and executed it well. And that we struggled to deal with that game plan. but as ever when things sort of don't quite go the way you want it's hard i always feel like we're kind of the not the masters of our own downfall but we contribute too easily to it you know when things go wrong for us and listen i i i'm here the morning after a cup final i'm not necessarily inclined to take the wider picture because as i said that there's something about just being fucked off and annoyed at a cup final not going well there's plenty of time over the course of this interlude to sort of talk ourselves around and to sort of step back and be objective about everything but you know it does when a game like this happens when a performance like that happens i don't know if this is true of you but i sort of it kind of makes me a little bit afraid.

50:40Does that make sense? That I feel like, oh, this is really who we are, even though I know it's not. The fact that we're capable of this sort of puts me on edge. Do you know where I'm coming from on this? Yeah, I understand that. I think it's a natural response. I mean, I'm not convinced this game's going to sort of, send, you know, reverberations through our title challenge. I do look at this as sort of a one-off and I think the cushion that we have in the Premier League means that we can hopefully compartmentalise it as such. But I'm not looking forward to the game of the Etihad at all. We have some questions, I think, about that.

51:30Yeah, because, you know, this is a game that will really have lifted City's belief that they can beat us in Manchester. And then it does become a bit more interesting. I also think where this game could have real implications is maybe like the Champions League. Again, this is an oversimplification, but I feel like Arsenal are this incredibly dominant physical team and many Premier League teams, I think, kind of make the mistake of trying to match up on that and they come off second best. And I think City, although they have really physical players themselves in like O 'Reilly and Rodri and Semenyo, Haaland, I think by and large, they kept the ball on the ground and said, we're going to hit you with something different and give you different problems to solve.

52:18And we struggle with it. And I don't think there are many teams in the Premier League who can do that to us. But I think there's a few in the Champions League. maybe not the next team we're playing but certainly a Barcelona or somebody like that and I think you know they would be if that draw happens in the semi-final I think this game would be a really interesting template for them and it is maybe a bit of a warning sign to Mikel Arteta of what he may have to come down the line in that competition Before we go into the break um we did have some questions about it but it was something that occurred to me were you at all surprised that maybe we didn't get a seven eight ten twelve minute cameo from max downman towards the end or did it feel to you like it did to me that that would be potentially not the right environment in which to throw a 16 year old however fearless he might be whatever quality he might have, I sort of felt like, kind of keep him separate from it.

53:29Yeah, and I understood, you know, obviously we had Nonny on the bench and I could see why the manager would turn to him first in that situation. I also thought at 2-0 down, yeah, I personally didn't think there was much to gain at that point from introducing Max. It would have been a bit of a Hail Mary. and if it comes off like some it's amazing even if it doesn't come off nobody's going to say well this was like oh well it's down to max down and look you know he he fluffed his lines i just felt like this was a shit show that maybe you don't want him associated with i don't know if that's me overthinking i must say that the team we ended the match with was pretty chaotic it was a bit of a camel wasn't it like as far as i could tell we had sort of gabriel jesus and bakaya saka sort of playing in the midfield just ahead of zubomendi we lost all sense of shape i think by the end and um whether downman would have prevented that i don't know um yeah it's interesting i mean am i right in saying that since the everton game he's not actually got off the bench in each of the last two Arsenal matches.

54:43I don't think that's necessarily the worst thing for him. I think it's probably quite prudent management from Arteta. So I'm not going to be critical of that. But yeah, I, yeah, I was very disappointed and my seat in the press box was sort of just on the, just inside the Man City half of the pitch. So having to witness those celebrations at close quarters was not fun. No. Well, like I said, I turned the TV off and opened a beer. So that was about as much as I could muster the final whistle. I tucked into a delicious Carabao. It was a fridge full of Carabao in the press room. Right. What flavour?

55:28I actually don't know, Andrew. I refuse to drink it out of principle. I don't even know what it is. Is it an energy drink? I think it's an energy drink. Those things are no good for you. You know, not just Carabao. I don't want to get on the bad side of Carabao. I mean, this competition has... Our record in League Cup finals... Oh, God. ...is up there with Kepa's, to be honest with you. I mean... So, yeah. Next season, you know, play the kids. Play the kids' grannies. Play whoever. Just let's not put ourselves through this again. Yeah, I mean, it's Man City. I think they get to keep it now, don't they?

56:06They've won it about 15 times. Just fucking bin it off, the whole fucking thing. They can keep it forever. I don't want any part of it anymore, ever again. You didn't want it anyway. I did want it. I did want it as well. I know it's not the one. Yeah, I know it's not the one, but when it's a final, this is what I always said. Everyone's like, well, the Carabao Cup's a load of shit. Who cares about the Carling Cup? But, you know, you're at Wembley. You're at a cup final. It's a big day out. You know, I saw all the... And the fans were great, by the way. Yeah, listen, I saw all the stuff, you know, from the box park in Wembley and people I follow and all, you know, my Arsenal friends who were there not to get fucking stuffed by Manchester City, but there to have a great day with other Arsenal fans and hopefully to celebrate with the team when they lift the trophy.

56:52So, you know, to me, it's too easy to say that doesn't matter anyway. Why? You would have not celebrated if we'd won it at the end. You would have said, well, that's fine. I think I'll just go home now. Come on. You know, it is important when it's there. Like we can put it on the priority list. We all know where it stands over the course of the season. But when it's cup final day, you want to win it. And when you don't win it, it's annoying and frustrating. And when you fuck it up the way we fucked it up, you know, I'm, yeah. I don't know what more to say. I think that's all there is to say really in part one, Andrew.

57:29All right. Well, why don't we take a break? We'll come back with your questions and more in part two right after this.

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59:45Welcome back to the Arsecast Extra. This is part two of the show where we answer the questions that you sent to us on bluesky at gunnerblog.bsky.social and at arseblog.com. Also on the Arseblog Discord chat server, which you get access to if you are an Arseblog member on Patreon. I know we had the big Kepa discussion in part one, but I did think this was kind of interesting from Jimbo on the discord. He says, I feel like I'm in the minority. You definitely are. Definitely are. You're on this show, that's for sure. I think starting Kepa was the correct decision, and a mistake doesn't change that.

1:00:24Definitely in the minority here, Jimbo. Anyway, he says, If we don't provide our backup goalkeepers with reasonable expectations, i.e. playing all the Carabao Cup games, then we can say goodbye to having a decent backup goalkeeper and be stuck with the likes of Runerson or Turner. It's a dogfight out there, dog. I'm interested to know your thoughts. So a bit sort of adjacent to the Kepa discussion, more about the number two goalkeeper thing. Yeah, I mean, I hear that. I hear that point. My view on the number two goalkeeper is it's a high turnover position. And I don't mean Kepa just kicking the ball.

1:01:06I mean that it's impossible to keep a good number two for any length of time. And actually, Mikel Arteta's time at Arsenal kind of underlines that. I mean, Emi Martinez was the number two, sold pretty swiftly. Bernd Leno became the number two, sold within a year. Aaron Ramsdale became a number two, sold within a year. Matt Turner, within that time, came in, went out again. I think if you get a goalkeeper who is genuinely of any quality, you're probably going to lose them within two years. And I think, unfortunately, if you want a good backup goalie, that is just a reality that you have to accept either you know your alternatives are you get someone who's very young who is going to be patient but i think even with that you reach a kind of bottleneck in terms of games where they probably have to go out at some stage or you get someone who's older and no longer you know necessarily has that drive and ambition to be a number one.

1:02:19If you, if you want a guy who's kind of in prime like Kepa, I think they're here for a good time and not a long time. And I think that's just, I think that's sort of how you have to, I think it's, it's frustrating and it's difficult, but it's a difficult spot to fill. And I think you just have to accept that having a backup goalie who you can keep happy for five years, who's good, it's not really going to happen.

1:02:54Punny chat name on Discord said, Raya's had his best season for us this year and clearly has gone up a level. Do you think it's coincidence that it coincides with Kepa being his best competition? If that's the case, is it worth not winning the Carabao Cup to get the Raya performances we've got in the league and the Champions League? Like, I don't necessarily draw that line but I thought that was an interesting question as well like yeah it is an interesting question and I'd love to know what David Ryan thinks do you know what I mean like I know he's had some other priorities outside of football this week congratulations to him on the birth of his child I don't think that would have impacted in any way on selection obviously he was with the team in the hotel with the group over the weekend but I'd love to know what he thinks Like maybe he's gutted, maybe he really wanted to play the final, but maybe he thinks Kepa deserved it.

1:03:53You know, they're friends. It's a unique dynamic that exists between goalkeepers. They train independently the vast majority of the time. They train at considerable intensity and they all know that come the weekend, only one of them is going to play. And we have seen, you know, we speak about it as kind of unusual sentimentality from Arteta, but it is a position where he has applied that sentimentality elsewhere this season. He brought on Tommy Setford as a substitute against Wigan. So I think between Mikel and the goalkeeper coach, Yaki Kanya, who I think will have been certainly heavily involved in discussions around this decision, maybe there is a feeling of like to keep this group going, to keep them motivated.

1:04:40we have to afford them all opportunity and I know Kepa is liked at Arsenal and he's a popular guy and you know maybe that played into Mikel's thinking I still maintain that in a cup final you pick your best team I mean Kepa's not played a minute of Premier League football this season so clearly Mikel doesn't believe him to be at David Ryder's level, in my mind. Should the opposition be taken into account? If you're playing, I don't know, a mid-table Premier League team, let's say a Brentford, and with all due respect to them, or somebody like that gets to the Carabao Cup final, does it become easier to make the Kepa decision than if you're playing essentially the best team the Premier League has seen for the last however many years with all the caveats and asterisks and 115 asterisks and all that.

1:05:49Like, should that be a factor in the manager's thinking? Yes, I mean, it was pointed out to Mikel on Friday at the press conference that he played in the 2014 final and Lukas Fabianski was selected in that one. But I would say two things to that. Number one, my overriding memory of Lukas Fabianski from that game is him tearing out of his goal in the right wing back position. Oh my God, the amazing viral video that did the rounds there as well. Yeah, yeah. And we did concede two offset pieces in that game. So I'm not sure you can argue it went particularly well. But number two, we were playing Wigan.

1:06:31You know, you've got to take the context into consideration. This was Man City, you know, the other, I think, outstanding team in this league. And as I said at the top, I think it was a huge game for this club. I think it was a game we needed to win, to be honest. You know, we've waited too long for silverware and we're not in a position to be deprioritising any competition or any final, any trophy. So, yeah, I'm still of the same mind. Obviously, we're not privy to the internal politics and Mikel was not repentant, was he, in his press conference? But I do think an FA Cup final... I mean, we had a question here about Southampton.

1:07:26should Kepa play the FA Cup quarterfinal against Southampton. It was from Will Goodliffe. And my answer to that would be yeah. Yeah, I've got no problem with him starting a quarterfinal against Southampton. But it's a quarterfinal and he's against Southampton. Yep. And in my head, I'm like, what is the worst case scenario? In my head, the worst case scenario is Kepa's really unhappy and we end up losing him in the summer. And in my mind, I'm like, but you lose second choice goalkeepers anyway. You've lost five before this. And Matt Ryan. And Matt Ryan, yeah. So, I don't know. Is there any merit in the idea that it would have upset the...

1:08:14Listen, I think something we've talked about quite often is the sense of togetherness within the squad, the sense of solidarity, right? That they do, you don't do what we've done to this point in the season without everybody being together, right? And united and solidified and all that kind of stuff, right? So I think there is some merit to the idea that a manager has to take that into account to some extent. But I also think what keeps the squad together and brings them together is success and trophies. And I can't shake my belief, which I think is aligned with yours, that in a game like this, you should play your best player, best available player in every position.

1:08:58And we didn't do that yesterday. No. And in my defence, and I think our defence, this is not hindsight. I've said this all along, that I wanted Raya to play this game. I think we said we wanted Raya to play the semi-finals against Chelsea, not just the final. But as we also said earlier, it's not all on Kepa this game. Lots of other players disappointed. And we have questions about those. Go on. Alex Burnham. I think this is an interesting one. Is the Zubemmendi and Rice midfield pairing a problem? Seemed to work well earlier in the season, but recently much less so. Is it a symptom of a wider malaise in the team and or the absence of Odegaard and Havertz?

1:09:44or do we need to consider changing the structure of the midfield to accommodate more creativity? Yes to the latter for me. I mean, I've lost track of the pinpoint, but the structure of the midfield has changed already this season, hasn't it? Like we definitely started with a six and two eights and we definitely now have two sixes and a kind of sort of a 1080 guy yeah i yeah i'm not sure we've benefited massively from that i would agree with that i would agree with that i think for me anyway i would prefer to see more the six and two eights than than what we've got from Rice and Zubimendi. I think we've also asked too much physically of those two players.

1:10:45Obviously, it's compounded by injuries. There's no Marino to take minutes off them. There's no Odegaard or hasn't been much Odegaard to take minutes off them. Eberachie has sort of come back into the team recently, but wasn't playing a great deal. so I think there is an element of fatigue um to that partnership that they're not quite capable of producing the form that they did show earlier in the season I mean I think you know Zubamendi's in the spotlight and he wasn't great yesterday he did make that chance but I think he looks like a guy who is sort of spent in a way he looks gassed doesn't he does he does um and i do wonder maybe if you sort of simplify his role if you make him a six and and make him a bit more metronomic i'm not saying his job is easy but he's a hard-working player but we're also asking him to defend and we're asking him to get forward and we're asking him to make a difference in the opposition half and he can do it he scored goals he's popped up he made the chance yesterday for Havertz you know it's not like we're asking him to do things he can't do but what I think what we're what we're doing is asking him to find a physical level he's not capable of at this moment in time Declan Rice on TV after the Bayer Leverkusen game in midweek what did he say first thing he said I'm shattered just the first thing he said yeah like they're they're absolutely knackered whether you think Norgard is good enough to start games at the business end of the season ahead of these two guys I don't know but is there a way in previous games that Norgard could have played a bit more so these guys aren't quite as tired I do think the absence of Odegaard is a big factor in this because he does, maybe he is a little too, how would you say, not quite risk-averse because I don't think that's necessarily it.

1:12:52But, you know, we've talked about Odegaard dropping deep a bit too much and you want him to play more in the opposition half. But I think what he brings you is a sort of, he's a connector in midfield, right? He connects play from one side to the other side. It might not always be effective, but we feel like a unit in midfield when he's there. And right now, and certainly yesterday, those midfield parts felt distinct from one another rather than part of a particular combination or unit, if that's the right way of putting it. So I don't know how we change it at this point. Hopefully Odegaard's back after the interlull.

1:13:32I think the Eze situation could be maybe longer than people like. We don't know, but we'll have to keep fingers crossed on that. But I think there's got to be a way to try and change that midfield dynamic a little bit. Yeah. And I would not rule out dropping Declan Rice into that number six position either. I know he brings a lot more to the game. And in some ways, I think we've missed those kind of driving runs forward in that inside left channel. But, you know, I still think there may be... When I see how Rodri is able to kind of influence the game from that number six area and still be a threat in the attacking third and still, you know, be a presence and get the odd goal.

1:14:22I do wonder like are we sort of avoiding the obvious to an extent with Declan Rice there but I'm partly saying that because I think Martin Zubbemendy looks like a guy who needs a rest to be honest with you. Who are you playing then if you are dropping Rice into the six where are your two eights for example? Well they could be Eze and Odegaard maybe If Eze's fit. In certain games if Eze's fit yeah if he's not of course with Marino out as well you've got an issue um you do Havertz and Odegaard I mean Havertz is another one who looks like a long way from properly fit to me you know and that for understandable reasons but he doesn't look like he's a hundred percent but with with Zubimendi I sort of have this I think it's kind of my fault in a way but I think I when he arrived I was slightly guilty of stereotyping him.

1:15:18Like, I think I thought of him as this kind of 90 pass player at 90%. You know what I mean? Like a real sort of, like you said, a conductor, a metronome at the base of the midfield. And I feel like at the moment, he's more of a sort of broken, he looks like more of a broken player, player like a guy who's sort of a bit more scrappy in there and picks up loose balls and you know connects the dots but isn't he's not he's not Jorginho you know what I mean he's he's you mean beefing with Chapel Rowan that's the big castle story of the weekend no doubt but yeah he's almost like sort of like uh like people hate comparisons but like a sort of higher higher ceiling Lucas Torreira he sort of feels like to me and I think I was guilty of sort of profiling him as he's going to be the guy who sets the tempo on the ball and maybe he can be but I would say at the moment he's not really doing that in this team and I think the midfield look like they are lacking that and actually I think whether he plays as an 8 or 10 or even deeper I actually think Martin Odegaard probably is the guy who can bring that to the team that kind of conductor quality.

1:16:42I think we sort of need that. Yeah, no, I agree. I think we need Odegaard back and we need Ezefitt. And then there are ways for the manager to sort of reconfigure his midfield. But, you know, without those two guys, it is very workmanlike in there. But I sort of agree with you on Rice in the six in that I think, listen, Rodri is one of the best players in the world in that position. But I also think there are certain things he does in that position that maybe Declan Rice could look at and not necessarily just copy what he does, but not everything has to be at 100 miles an hour. Do you know what I mean?

1:17:22You just have to kind of be there. And I'm not saying that's easy either. You have to read the game and be aware of where your teammates are. But there is a sort of, what do they call Declan Rice? The horse. Yeah. Because he never fucking stops running. And that is a great quality. But sometimes being static. Sometimes you don't need to gallop. You can just trot. Yes. Or even canter a little bit, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like with Rice and Zipmendi at the moment, there's a bit of duplication there. I think this discussion based on yesterday is tricky because we were without so many important midfield players who could have brought more balance.

1:18:09So I have some sympathy with Mikel Arteta. I don't think there was necessarily another way to go yesterday. But I do think moving forward, I think there are definitely tweaks that could be made to the midfield structure. Okay, let's have this question. Oh, okay. if that's all right yeah sure go for it it's from the non-flying dutchman it says on a scale of one to ten how worried are you about sacca we've just given him a new contract on bumper wages and it seems like he's lost most lost most of his athleticism do you think this is just who he is now or will an extended break after the World Cup help fix him?

1:18:56Cheers, lads. When is Bakayo Saki going to get an extended break? I mean, the only way that happens is for England to crash out of the World Cup really, really early. And even then, it's not an extended break. It would just be a slightly shorter break than... I wouldn't put it past us. I have faith in Thomas Tuchel to do that for Arsenal, sure. I mean, yeah, we had loads of questions about Saka. Freddie LJ on the Discord. Is there a conversation to be had about Saka? He's not been right since his injury. Have we rushed him back? I think I leave the contract thing to one side. Yeah, that's fair.

1:19:35Because, you know, I've seen that sort of suggested about, ooh, it's gone a bit Aubameyang or a bit Ozil or whatever. But he only signed the contract about three weeks ago, whatever it was, right? So I think it's way too soon to talk about the contract being an influence on Saka's play when the issues that he's been having of late, I think, have predated that contract. Right. To me. He looks like a guy who has lost half a step, whether it's to do with the injury, whether it's to do with form, whether it's to do with confidence, maybe a combination of all of those things. What set Bakayo Saka apart and what made him so effective was his ability to find that half a step for a cross or a shot to put the ball in a dangerous area.

1:20:28And too often now, I see him take an extra touch, take an extra step before trying to take that shot or make that cross or play that pass. and I mean it's hard not to draw the parallel isn't it between how much he played for Arsenal and for England and the hamstring surgery that he had and think it's caught up with him it's difficult not to draw that conclusion I don't have all the information, you don't we don't have the data but we can see with our eyes that the the Bakayo Saka that we've seen this season is not quite the same as the best version of Bakayo Saka that we can all remember. I think it's also fair to point out that, you know, there were games last season when he returned from that hamstring injury, where he did really well scored at the Bernabeu.

1:21:27Let's not forget, you know? So my suspicion is that it's something not necessarily unique, to this season, but I think it's potentially overcomable. But right now, his form is not good. And I think you can see the decision-making or the ability to get the ball out of his feet as quickly as he did in the past is not there. And that's a problem for a player like him because I think that is basically his superpower, right? it was like I love Bakayo Saka but he's not a guy who's going to beat like seven men on the dribble he's not going to do you know the kind of tricksy wingery stuff that a Doku will do but he was just so relentlessly effective in the opposition final third and he can't really produce that at this moment in time what do I mean what do you think I think if the shirts didn't have names on the back yesterday, I think I would have brought him off.

1:22:43I think if I was watching it, you know, objectively, I think I would have changed him. For who? This is the problem though, you know, we... Well, I think for... Listen, Madueke came on and wasn't great. But for Madueke or Dalman, And I just mean, if I was looking at areas of the pitch and thinking like, where do I need more? I did find myself looking at that right wing. And in the first half, he was playing sort of in front of me. That's kind of where the press box was. And there were times where I sort of looked at him one-on-one with Nico O 'Reilly, who's not a natural left back. You know, he's a bit of a Lewis Kelly in that respect.

1:23:26I think he played as a number 10 in the academy. me and I found myself sort of willing Saka to go at him do you know what I mean to really take him on to really push him and most of the time he didn't he sort of came back inside played the pass across goal you know looked to the other side of the pitch and I I am worried like out of 10 I don't know nothing crazy no six maybe but six out of ten is you know it's a lot to be worried about your best player and he is arguably our best player or one of our most important players certainly and yeah he didn't have it was another another game that really passed him by and And I can't, it's so difficult, isn't it?

1:24:31It's so tempting to kind of put two and two together. You look at like the hamstring surgery and you think, what could be the knock-on effect of that? But it does just feel like he's maybe lost. I hate to say lost because lost feels permanent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know what you mean. But I think, you know, you can also find something again. That's true. I think for the time being, he doesn't seem to have that burst that I think in a wide player in this league is kind of imperative. Yeah. It sort of goes back to what Mikel Arteta was talking about with the game being man-to-man a couple of weeks ago.

1:25:15Remember where he said, you know, if all the managers agree not to do man-to-man marking, you have a very different league, which is, you know, obvious. But while it is that way... I'm working on that, by the way. I'm petitioning them all individually. Yeah, please stop. While it is that way, though, you need players who can create, what's the buzzword, separation, right, from their marker, either with pace or either with a bit of skill or a bit of movement. And at this moment in time, Bakaio doesn't look like he's capable of doing that on a consistent basis. I mean, a couple of weeks ago, he scored the winner against Brighton, a very, very important goal in a big game that Arsenal needed to win.

1:25:58So I, you know, I get it when everybody is down after a cup final. It's sort of, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and everything else. but he is one of those players when you go into a game like this right you're looking at the the lineup and you see okay we don't have this guy we don't have that guy maybe we're not as strong here but you know i i looked to players like yesterday i was looking for rice and i was looking for saka as two players who you're kind of hoping can really step up you know and bring something to the team when they really need it, you know? And again, it's not sort of to blame them for not being able to do that yesterday.

1:26:43I think the issues went kind of deeper. But with Saka in particular, because of his profile and because of what he's done in an Arsenal shirt before now, that there is a standard that he has set that he's not quite at, but we shouldn't forget the standard that he set and the consistency that he produced goals and assists for this football club. I do feel like, I recognise his form is not good. He wasn't good yesterday. He hasn't been brilliant. But I also feel like that's kind of overlooked. Like the reason people are so disheartened by seeing Saka play like this is because we have seen him play so much better so often for Arsenal.

1:27:25And it's kind of sad that, you know, that element is a little bit overlooked. That's all I'll say. Absolutely. And in a lot of the conversations we've had today, I think mine Odegaard's name has come up. And I understand there's always that tendency to kind of look for the players who are absent, look to them to change things. But I do wonder what Odegaard coming back into the team, as I think feels almost inevitable at this point in time, might do for Saka. I have said that before, but I do think their understanding has been such a pivotal part of everything Arsenal have done in recent years.

1:28:06He could stand to benefit from that too. But yeah, I think it is totally fair and reasonable to be a bit, a bit, little bit, a little bit worried about Saka. Okay, what about this one? Matt Factor on the Discord says, Good morning, gents. How much easier do you think that keepy-uppy moment has made Arteta's team talk for the game in Manchester? And Bergkamp's Boots says, On a scale of one to Martin Keogh and jumping on Van Nistelrooy, how enjoyable was it to see Ben White smash Cherky after his showboating? I mean, it was probably our highlight of the game. Yeah, that says a lot about our game.

1:28:47I agree with that, by the way. I was glad to see it, though, I have to say. I was glad to see it. Yeah, I mean, look, Marley Salmon did it in the academy game the other day, didn't he, in the under-21s. That's a bit different, I know. And I think he got himself in some trouble as well. You know, it's not something footballers take kindly to. You could see Ben White saying that to the City players who were taking objection to it. And he was like, well, what do you want me to do? Like, what do you expect me to do when he does that on my side of the pitch? If a matador waves the red flag, the ball is going to charge.

1:29:18Fucking right, yeah. I think any of us would be the same. Anyone who's played football at any level, when someone's taking the piss, you know, you can't really have that. So, so, so I, so I, I totally feel that. I have to be honest and say, I wish we were the ones doing the keepy uppies. Well, that's, yeah. You know what I mean? Like I, to bring it back to that point about the kickoffs, it's like, on some level, like I do wish we had a guy who was, who could walk around the pitch doing keepy uppies. but we didn't really on the pitch yesterday and we weren't two nil up in a game we weren't of course and that's the key that's the key but like i enjoyed the ben white thing but it was a retaliation to their superiority and that's painful yeah um but yeah listen he'd be getting a pat on the back from me that's for sure for sure I liked it I hated that it happened but I liked that he responded to it he didn't just sort of let it happen who did it was it Nanny at Old Trafford oh yeah he sort of ran down the line and it was it was Fleminy who went sliding if Fleminy had caught Nanny there that would have been a career ender but he missed but it's a last he missed at least Ben White didn't miss tragically he missed yeah I mean listen we all sort of say you know we get on our high horses and like we want football to clean game blah blah blah but I thought it was sort of quite good fun all round to be honest that Pep wasn't happy was he no he wasn't he wasn't but you know yeah if we talk about the game losing some of its personality there was a bit of it there between those two you know exactly Jerky doing what he did and Ben White going, have a bit of this, you cunt.

1:31:19Yeah. And also like, I think it says something about Ben White that he was prepared to be that guy, you know? Okay. Why don't we just do this one to finish off? Okay. A nice, positive, uplifting one from Dead Skinny on the Discord who says, how do we, as the traumatized fans we are, pull ourselves together to support our team and each other after this? We have a lot of games left. We need to stay positive, but I feel like the hope has killed us way too often. What do you each do to function like a normal person after Arsenal has ripped out your heart again?

1:32:00That's a good question. I talk to this Irish man who I know through the internet for like up to two hours sometimes. I sit in my bedroom, rocking back and forth and sort of pouring out my heart. It sounds like the kind of service somebody should be charging for, to be honest. It does. Business opportunity. Any Irishman out there on the internet, you're looking at us in. Just find a sad Englishman and, you know, pay by the hour. You'll be fucking quids in. listen I I think as we said at the top we've got to have our day of being gutted about losing a cup final you know and then I think you know the international break I think comes at an alright time it gives us time to kind of process this and refocus Stu's good where do you stand on that about sort of the timing of this and the international break and do you think it suits us to have this little layoff to kind of lick our wounds and then yeah attack the running yeah i do think so to be honest i know there's the idea where you just get back on the horse and everyone riding around on the back of declan rice uh again but yeah i do think it it probably is like if you if we won it you go into the international break and it's great and everybody's happy i think if you are going to lose a game like this having a bit of time where the players like it's not ideal that they're going away some of them aren't timber as a saliba pulled out of the france squad um you know but some of the players are going away maybe it's not the worst thing in the world you know a few days of separation get everybody back together, you know, and then start to really consolidate for what is going to be an absolutely intense six weeks or seven weeks, whatever it might be.

1:34:10You know, I think in the, in the context we find ourselves in now, I think this is probably a, a well-timed interlull, albeit one where I am gonna say prayers and light candles and do dances that everybody comes back safe and sound you know just no more injuries please that's the only thing i ask um but yeah i think it probably is useful you yeah i think so i think it's needed i think there are there are metaphorical and literal wounds to be repaired and then we come back with a huge amount still to play for yes um the biggest prize is very much still on the table uh and no more questions about a quadruple so well thank fuck i mean it was all just a sort of media construct anyway it was never anything that that our thing arsenal fans were really particularly no i mean it's inevitable that people talk about it when you're in all four competitions right but it was never realistic for me I don't think it was anything the manager or the players really you know we're going to win the quadruple of course not but you know you fall out the first hurdle so to speak and everybody gets a little bit worried but look we do have time to sort of as you say lick our wounds and come back fighting and hopefully motivated but that maybe is a conversation for another day right?

1:35:40Absolutely and I think yeah yeah Yeah, it's a conversation for another day. I thought of something that, you know, as soon as the idea solidified in my head, it just floated off out of it. That's fair. That's the trouble with podcasting. Sometimes your brain will just let you down. That's why we've had the longevity that we have. Yeah, I guess. I guess. And there's a beautiful honesty about us leaving this in. You know, lesser podcasters would edit this. yeah not us we're purists that's it that's it from the top of the dome into the mic and sometimes there's nothing to say except i'd really like it if uh this bit you know how like we have like people who make reels and sort of little clips of us from the podcast and there's like dramatic music under it sure it's your goals i hope this is the bit they use for this episode do you know what i mean no i don't remember what i was going to say actually yeah probably probably didn't mean much in the grand scheme of things.

1:36:47What was it my mother used to always say? Like if you thought of something and then you went out of your head, it was like the old saying, it was probably a lie. Yeah, probably. But who knows, you know, not that you would ever lie to the audience. If it was solid podcast gold, I think I would have retained the memory of it, but it was essentially the, 2026 Carabao Cup final performance of podcast thoughts. Absolutely. So fuck it. Let's consign it to history. Absolutely. To the dustbin of history. Right. We better leave it there to you guys. Thank you so much for being with us. As we said, there are bigger, wider conversations that we can have about where we go after this, but they can wait for another day.

1:37:35You know, today is about just sort of getting over yesterday and putting it behind us. We appreciate you being here as always. we'll have an episode of the 30 for you over on Patreon tomorrow looking back at all the Premier League action try and stretch it out because it is an interlull and things will quieten down a bit before they get very intense but again thanks so much for being with us as always hope you enjoyed the show and we will catch you on the next one bye bye

1:38:26We'll be right back. podcasts and watch the full episodes on YouTube.