Arsecast Extra Episode 694 - 11.05.2026

0:00Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Avnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest-growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S.

0:32national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app, and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this... Well, I think the problem is if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on-the-move expert analysis. The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more.

1:18Yuanya Philippe They pass to history and this may be one of them. He takes a foot that keeps Arsenal with the 0-0.

1:59This is Arsecast Extra. Hello and welcome to another Arsecast Extra as always with James from Gunner Blog. James, goodly morning to you. Goodly morning, man. The morning after the day before, how does it feel? Fucking hell. Fucking hell. Heart rate stabilised? Fuck. I feel like, you know, that scene from The Wire where it's Bunk and McNulty and they're just like, fuck, fuck, fuck. That was me at the final whistle yesterday. It was just, I was sat there in a kind of daze, just like, what the fuck, fucking hell. Well, my heart rate was up. I don't know about my blood pressure, but I know my heart rate.

2:41Normally, according to my Garmin watch, resting heart rate is around 65 beats per minute. It was up about 129, 130 beats per minute, like a good house track in the club. But, you know, not for the first time this season, I felt like I went through something above and beyond a game of football. you know and um i don't know if i'm the better of it i felt like i was a complete mess last night uh but i'm i'm happy today i'm very very happy today that we won and we got the result that we needed albeit in more dramatic circumstances than i would have cared for so dramatic i mean the whole the whole running has kind of been uh maybe more dramatic than anybody anticipated and And I think yesterday topped it off.

3:34Just insane. Insane. A huge, huge for Arsenal, huge for us, a big step towards that Premier League title in the most extraordinary, astonishing fashion. Yeah. I saw your blog today and you said, like, I don't know where to start. I don't know the headline that sums it up. It's very difficult to find those words, isn't it? Yeah, it is. And like, I think this is going to be quite an interesting episode because our experience of this game is very different. Very, very, very different because I was watching it live and you were unable to watch it live, but keeping up with things on your phone, you've obviously watched it since and seen all that went on.

4:22But, you know, I think most people listening will have, you know, been where I was, whether it was on their couch or perhaps in the West Ham Stadium. There seemed to be a plethora of Arsenal fans in the West Ham end yesterday. If my mentions on social media and emails or anything to go by, a lot of Arsenal fans were in with the West Ham fans, which I'd say was certainly an experience. But generally, we all went through this thing live, watching it together, the ups, the downs, the heart-wrenching terror of those final few minutes and the bar check and all that kind of stuff. You know, what was it like for you from a distance?

5:03And then when you watched it all, how did that resonate? Did you kind of feel like, ooh, I feel a bit lucky here. I didn't have to go through that with everyone else. Never in doubt, mate. I don't know what you were worried about. No, so I was at the television BAFTAs and part of that, I mean, it's a long day. It's 2 p.m. till 2 a.m. I mean, it's longer than most weddings. And part of it is a four hour ceremony, which I think for television gets cut down to approximately half that length. But there's a lot of people walking downstairs that they take out. But you're basically trapped in an auditorium for four hours.

5:51And obviously it's the BAFTAs and it's an honour to be there and to be nominated. And you're thrilled. But if you're an Arsenal fan, there's this kind of undercurrent running through the whole day. and all day I was bumping into different Arsenal fans who were asking me, how are you following the game? How are you keeping up with the game? What's your plan? The plan was a phone on my lap, occasionally streaming bits and pieces, reading a lot of live text, checking in on your live blog as well, which was basically kind of watching a man slowly lose his sanity over the course of 90 minutes, which I enjoyed.

6:36And yeah, and having the most surreal, of course, insane part of it be that final 10, 15 minutes or so where all the major action happened. I mean, it was so tense. I know of at least one senior BBC figure who left the auditorium during the BAFTAs to watch the last 10 minutes of the game. And I suspect there were more than that. I suspect there were many, many more. It was a very, very weird, thrilling, exciting experience. And I must say, we didn't win our category. We didn't win our BAFTA. Boom, boom. But I felt like a winner on the night. And I think I was as happy at the post-ceremony party as anyone who walked away with one of those little gold masks.

7:28So, yeah, it was a very different and unique way to watch a game. And I can't, to be honest with you, I think it spared me because I think when you're a little bit detached like that, it feels kind of out of your hands. I mean, the absurd thing about being a football fan is, realistically, it's always out of your hands. But when you're there or even if you're watching live, you do have the illusion or the feeling of some kind of agency or involvement in it. And I just sort of had to kind of sit back and let it all unfold. But thank God it did in the way it did. Oh, my God. It was really something.

8:10It really was. And, you know, there is this old adage, isn't there, about, well, Arsenal never do things the easy way. I mean, we are redefining that this season in incredible ways. from week to week we are finding new ways for to not do it the easy way you know um well andrew actually you know you say to me like how is my perspective different like what do i bring to it that maybe someone who had to experience that um in person or on tv in the moment might not uh i think it enabled me very quickly and maybe this is not unique maybe everyone feels like this But very quickly to be sort of strangely grateful for it and to recognize it as a kind of iconic game result set of circumstances, something that will sort of live forever.

9:07You know, when we think about this season, this running, that this will absolutely be something we talk about for years and years as a kind of defining moment. And for all the anguish and the nerves and the anxiety that it produced, I do sort of feel strangely grateful for it to have happened. Because when you win a league, these are absolutely the moments that you look back on. Sure. And, you know, no league is won by one incident or one game or one decision or one goal or one save, right? it happens over the course of 38 games but there are moments there are games where it does feel like oh this was the moment where you know we we we looked like we were going to win it or it changed the complexion of the title race or you know it was the day you could really start to feel confident and you can think back to you can think back to other title winning seasons and pick out games and moments and incidents that really resonate, you know, and I think you're right about yesterday.

10:15It absolutely will for various reasons that we'll get into. Yeah, I mean, like I said in the blog, I don't really know where to begin other than sort of try and work our way through what happened from start to finish and what was a really good start to the game from Arsenal, a really positive beginning. You know, we turned the screw on West Ham pretty early and there were moments, there was a Califiori chance. It was a really good pass from Leandro Trossard with the outside of his foot. Califiori, maybe he should cross it. I don't really blame him for shooting there. Mavropanos got a foot in the way and deflected it over the bar.

11:02what was sort of going through my mind was a few weeks back we were all well thank you Dinos Mavropanos for scoring that goal against Manchester City the former Arsenal boy did us a favour and yesterday I was like wouldn't it be just one of those things if Mavropanos had the game of his life again and you're thinking I'm not so fond of you today He made another brilliant block from Calafuri. It was a Declan Rice free kick that Calafuri flicked on, and it was almost certainly going in, but for Mavropanos getting a foot behind him. So from hero to zero for Mavropanos, but he's got a job to do for West Ham, and we can all appreciate that.

11:46But Trossard hit the bar with a header after he forced Hermanson into a save. I think there was another Calafuri moment. There was an Eze shot wide. And it was a really, really, really bright start from Arsenal. It was one where you sort of were thinking, we got to turn this into a goal or goals, this domination. Because if you don't, it sort of starts to feel like, oh, it could be one of those days. Yeah, West Ham was surrendering possession and we were a team with some rhythm, with some confidence in those early stages. interesting I thought that if not entirely surprising Mikel Arteta stuck with the same team I think clearly there's great confidence in that group at this point in time set pieces we were a threat Declan Rice's delivery I think throughout the game really there were you know four or five moments where he created goal scoring opportunities with really really good delivery that Calafuri header that Mavropanos blocks you know in almost Calafuri-esque fashion actually in the way he kind of contorts his body to get it away.

12:56He's a brilliant header, I think. The way he almost has to turn 360 and flick it on. That scramble with Trossard really, though, was the one where you were like, how's that not gone in? The ball was kind of bouncing around the box for a few moments. I think Eze ends up getting a shot away. But it was one of those periods of the game where you sort of feel Arsenal have to score. You know, this is the time when you're on top. You've got to take advantage. And if you don't, you can get drawn into a long slog. And that is kind of what happened, actually. Yeah. I mean, a minute or two minutes after that Calafiore chance that Mavropanos did so well to defend, there was a break in the game because Ben White was injured in a challenge with Somerville.

13:42I have to say, I didn't really appreciate Gary Neville blaming Ben White on the commentary for getting himself injured, essentially is what he was saying for not going in hard enough. And listen, 50-50s are part of football. Sometimes you come out the wrong side of one and that's exactly what happened here. And it's an unfortunate injury for Ben White. It didn't look good. It's a jarred knee kind of thing. Yeah, sort of one of those where he went in to try and win the ball and he sort of opened up his, you know, to kick it with the inside of his foot and it sort of opened up his knee in that 50-50.

14:18Like it is one of those where you could go through with a bit more force or you could go through with your laces a little bit. But there's, I don't know. I didn't think he did anything wrong. I didn't think either. I think it's sort of a Shawcrossian way to go in is what Gary Neville was talking about. You know, if you're really going to go in and like leather the ball, if you time that badly, you're going to do the opponent a mischief as well. And mischief is really understating it. So I just think he was unfortunate. It was a 50-50. They both got to the ball and he came off the worst of it. And it's really sad for him because I think that's probably his season over now, based on how long it took him to sort of be accompanied around the pitch.

15:07He really wasn't moving well at all, you know. And in an area of the pitch where, you know, we've had some difficulty recently and question marks over Jureen Timber. So talk me through, Andrew, your real-time reaction to what could very easily, I think, have been the major talking point of the game, which is how Mikel Arteta responded to that, Andrew. I am so glad that this is a sidebar, you know, to today's show and to the discussions that we're going to have about this game. I'm so happy that it is a moment that we kind of overcame because I think potentially had this game not turned out the way it did, If we didn't win this game, I think this might have gone down as one of the worst decisions that Mikel Arteta has made during his time as Arsenal manager.

16:01You know, the like for like change is obviously Christian Muscara coming on for Ben White. Defender for defender. I don't know if there was a fitness issue. I don't think there was because Muscara came on at halftime. I don't really know quite what he was thinking. You know, Rice has played at right back before, earlier in the season, maybe against Brighton, I think. It didn't really make any sense to me because not only do you lose your right back, your first choice right back or your first pick right back, who was playing quite well and has been playing quite well over the course of the season.

16:39you shift your best central midfield player out of the areas where you want him. And I think there were moments in this game when Rice really demonstrated what he brings to this team in the center of the park, right? So I just did not understand the reason why he chose to put Martin Zubomendy on. I think it's the wrong decision. It was the wrong sub. and it potentially could have cost Arsenal the title. I mean, I know, again, going back to what I'm saying, it's not down to one thing or one, but it was a moment where I think the manager,

17:25for whatever reason, made the decision he did, but made a big mistake. I think there's no getting around that. It was an error. And I think what we saw later on from him was tacit admission that it was an error? Oh, I mean, I don't know how tacit it was. You know, I think it was pretty clear. It's interesting because in the week I wrote a piece about Declan Rice, which was a bit of a retrospective of his season and some of the ways in which he's sacrificed himself for the team. And one of the things that occurred during that was, of course, him playing starting at right back against Brighton, I believe it was, in December.

18:05when he put in a man-of-the-match performance. I mean, I don't flatter myself, but I hope Mikel Arteta didn't read it and go, oh yeah, that was a good idea. Because it was an odd one. Really odd to take him out. I suppose at that point in the game, Arsenal were really on top, had a very high possession percentage. And maybe he's thinking, yeah, nominally, nominally, nominally, he'll be playing a right back. You know what I mean? I know. But realistically, he'll be kind of striding into midfield and not really in that position, but it definitely seemed to destabilise things. Rice himself had one or two sticky moments out on that side.

18:45And I just don't think we could, you know, you don't take your best player. It's funny because obviously I'm kind of seeing the game through my phone and almost every football related WhatsApp chat I was in, be they Arsenal fans or not Arsenal fans, was kind of astonished at the idea that you would take your best midfielder out of midfield in a game of such importance. Yeah, it just was, he got it wrong. It was bad. It negatively impacted the team. And listen, to be fair, he did go some way to correct it, obviously at halftime, by bringing Muscara on and taking Calafiore off. He said afterwards it was an injury to Calafiore.

19:28I do wonder if that's the perfect cover well kind of kind of because you know I was you know on my whatsapp we were talking about like you know he might need to sub Zubimendi which is you know a really really difficult thing for any manager to do because yeah he had to get rice back into midfield so somebody had to be sacrificed i think it would i think yeah with califiori right if it's an injury nobody can be a bit surprised if it is an injury i also just wonder if it might have been cover for the decision you know a little bit but i guess we'll find out you know whether he's in the squad for for next week's game or not but you know i'm glad he corrected it at halftime.

20:23And I think what we saw a bit later from him was another correction, you know, that when it came right down to it, he recognized that this was the wrong configuration in midfield, that Zubomendi hadn't really got into the game. And he did take Zubomendi off in the second half. So he - He was only on about half an hour. Yeah, about 35 minutes, I think, is what it was. So I think if we're going to say he got it wrong, and he absolutely did, there's no two ways about that, I think at the same time you have to then give him some credit for putting it right. You know, for some there won't be any forgiveness for that.

21:06You know, he shouldn't get it wrong in the first place when the change is as obvious as it is. You know, to do what he did was just like, I don't know, football managers have mad ideas sometimes. It's not restricted to Mikel Arteta. No, he's not the only one who's made it. Do you think that's kind of a pressure influenced decision? Because it was just so unusual. He's not made many big wrong calls like that this season. I don't think. No, I don't think so either. I don't really know. I mean, maybe with the, I'm just trying to think, did he say something? I sort of have a vague idea. He didn't really touch on the decision itself in his post-game press conference.

21:56I guess it's just one of those where you take a punt and you think, well, the way I see the game unfolding, this is the right change. But it didn't pan out like that at all. And I thought one thing that was interesting was when he talked about his substitutions, the language that he used I think again was a bit more around instinct and feeling and I do feel that for better and worse I think in the last couple of weeks there have been indications that Michel Arteta is sort of trusting his his gut a bit more and his gut to change it having moved Rice was right and essential on the day. Yeah, yeah.

22:44I've looked at it again on Arsenal.com here and the language around the Rice substitution or the Rice move to right back and then the Muscara substitution. It's so vague and convoluted. I can't really get a grip on what his decision-making was. I think you'd probably get a better answer from him today or tomorrow. you know maybe in the press conference on Friday I don't know if it's worth bringing up again maybe it is maybe it isn't you know it's water under the bridge now at this point but it would be interesting to know like in that moment what was he thinking and why did he make that decision maybe trusting in Zubomendi and Lewis Skelly to be able to control midfield maybe he didn't quite trust Muscara right back I don't know but look like I said it is a sidebar it is something we can just sort of put to one side now and not really dwell on too much having talked about it for 10 minutes you know but it was it was a big thing it was a big moment in the game and i i don't think it was really helpful for us um but when you're a manager when you're a leader you know you have to make big calls and i think sometimes the hardest thing in leadership is to say that you've got something wrong and to repair or retract yeah and to michael tett's credit like he he he did that and he he didn't sort of persist for the sake of persistence or ego or anything else he was he was very happy to kind of as you say tacitly accept that he did get it yeah so halfway through about halfway through or maybe closer to the 70 minute mark he made another a couple of changes with Odegaard and Havertz coming on for Ezzet and Zubamendi, the sub being subbed.

24:32And I think that did make a difference. It did make a difference to the way that we were able to play the game and play the game a bit more in the West Ham half. There was a shout for a penalty, which was never a penalty, in my opinion. The guy's on the ground. His arms are there. You can't really give a penalty for that. There was a chance for Jokeres. I think it's an Odegaard pass to Saka. Saka puts in a cross. Jokeres header at the back post. I think it's quite a decent chance that, to be honest. At the back post, he sort of headed it over. It's one of those where you sort of want the guy to head it back across over to the far corner, you know?

25:12Yeah. But, like, not a simple chance of when he absolutely should score, but maybe a better chance than much that we had created in the second half. Yeah, the second half was much harder work. Yes. Yeah, Saka had a couple of pot shots, but that was kind of about it, you know? Absolutely. And obviously with West Ham, you know, a point was a decent result for them. And I think the closer they got to it, you know, the more sort of determined and resolute they became. but I do think Odegaard made a real difference and obviously we're going to talk about the goal but I think I'm really happy for him because he's had a difficult season and I feel like when you speak about moments being remembered his contribution on the day felt big It did feel big because it was big I think he just gave us a bit of attacking thrust.

26:13You know, there are a couple of really good passes. There was one in particular from Matueke where the right-footed cross first time was not brilliant, but it was a really, really good pass to send him in behind. And it just gave West Ham something to think about. However, the first big, big moment then comes at the other end. When Mateus Fernandes is through on goal, my heart nearly stopped. I swear to God, when he was going through, I was like, oh no, this is it. We fucked it. It's fucked. Fuck. Fuck, fuck, fuck. It was, honestly, I don't know. Do you ever just see someone sit there, resigned, the head is bowed?

27:00All of that happened in the, whatever, two seconds it took Mateus Fernandez to go through. But it felt kind of like a lifetime. David Raya made possibly the biggest save of his Arsenal career so far. I mean, it's one of those where I think if our forward, if the role is reversed, if our centre forward goes through on goal there and doesn't score, we're probably categorising that as a really bad miss, right? from whoever is through on goal, whether it's a forward, midfielder, fucking lumbering center half, whoever it is. If you're in front of the goal like that and you've got all the goal to aim for and you end up hitting it near post and the goalkeeper saves it, I think Raya deserves massive credit.

27:53I gave him 10 out of 10 in the player ratings. But I do think that there is an element of this being a bad miss as much as it is a great save from Raya. Yeah, and I think Raya deserves all the plaudits. It's another clean sheet. It's another golden glove for him. He's brilliant, and I wouldn't swap him for anybody, really. But I'm curious as to sort of where you stand on that. He does so well. He stands up. He puts his leg out to block the shot. I still think Fernandes fluffs his lines in front of goal. Yes, I think both things are equally fair. I think Raya does brilliantly to not commit. He really does wait until the last possible moment before spreading into that kind of block position.

28:35And he's very upright, which I think maybe just gives Fernandes that little bit of hesitation. He almost seems to take an extra touch that he doesn't necessarily need. But watching it, I find it so odd that he doesn't just kind of poke the ball towards the far corner. Yeah. It seems the obvious finish. And maybe his thinking is, well, Rye will anticipate that, you know, but it's there for him. It's really there for him. His decision to go to the near post is, you know, is what enables Rye to make the save. And it's a huge moment. I've seen people compare it to Heung-Min Son, actually, when he went through an Edison saved in a one-on-one situation, which, again, was a pivotal moment in a title race, this time at our expense.

29:30But, yeah, big miss for West Ham. Massive moment from David Ryer, who I think deserves a lot of praise, made a decent save in the first half as well from the diving header. and has had an absolutely outstanding campaign and season. And the third consecutive Golden Glove tells its own story, really. But, I mean, that must have been a terrifying, terrifying moment. Terrifying is absolutely right, because it was sort of out of nothing. It was just one of those things that happens in a game where it's just like, oh, fuck. And it was a really smart little poke of the ball. I think it was by Pablo, the substitute, who came on.

30:10And I think it was him that poked the ball into the path of Fernanda as he kind of danced through. And yeah, it was terrifying. It was scary. I think if that goal goes in, we're done, to be honest, given the time of it and given how little we create. I mean, you can never say never. You can never tell how it's going to go. But to go 1-0 down in a game we absolutely had to win, And yeah, I wouldn't have fancied our chances really of scoring two goals in the final 10 minutes when we'd struggled to get one in the previous, you know, 80 or whatever it was. So huge, huge moment, you know, for West Ham, for the relegation battle, for the title race, it was absolutely massive.

30:53And then five minutes later, we find the goal. And listen, I think Martin Odegaard can at times take too many touches of the ball. Sometimes. On this occasion, this is fucking Goldilocks porridge. It was just right. Just the right amount of touches in the opposition box. I think the combination with Declan Rice is really, really good as well because he takes it forward, plays a pass with his right foot to rice it's a one-two he gets the ball back and he must take what six or seven touches in a really tiny tiny tight area in the box lays it off for trossard trossard applies the finish it's one nil to arsenal and just an amazing uh goal and an amazing feeling at that point of the game because you you don't take anything for granted with this Arsenal team but that goal was a long time coming and when it went in I will say there was a huge huge sense of of joy tinged with a lot of relief oh man I can only imagine I mean I think Odegaard does brilliantly it's a lovely one too with Rice those touches in the box you know that's not just for show it's about destabilizing unsettling West Ham shape you know every time he takes a touch There's almost a different option that opens itself up for a millisecond.

32:19And it's about him picking the right moment to play the pass. There's almost a split second where it looks like Kai Havertz is the pass. And then Odegaard chooses against that, takes another touch, creates a little bit more space. And just that, what is it, four-yard separation for Leandro Trossard just by hanging back. And, you know, he's been such a clutch player for us in run-ins in the past. he's not endured his best run of late what was it 25 games without a goal something like that but there he is in the moment to fire home via deflection runs off to celebrate in front of the away fans I can't imagine what it must have been like to be in that away and for that moment I mean ask your cousin he's in the video straddling the advertising hoarding and pumping the air with joy I mean, it was amazing.

33:13Saliba runs over, boots the ball in the air. I have to say, I love what that assist meant to Martin Odegaard as well. Absolutely. His reaction. His reaction is brilliant. He sort of goes to his knees and pumps the air and then he sort of head in his hands on the turf because he knew how big that goal could be. And I think for him as well, like this is a guy who has played at such a high level for Arsenal and for various reasons. And I think injury this season has been a key factor, really hasn't hit the level we know he's capable of. And I think nobody knows that better than Martin Odegaard. Nobody knows that better than him.

34:00And I think he will have been desperately unhappy with his lack of influence over this season, particularly maybe over the last number of weeks as well, where I think he has, you know, been in and out of the team a little bit, got another injury, been in and out again. And, you know, this is a guy who's desperate for Arsenal to win. He's the club captain. And you could see how much that moment meant to him. And you could see, obviously, then, you know, the celebrations of all the players, how much that goal meant to everybody. But, you know, I think when you go through a difficult time with injury like Odegaard, and then you produce something like that in a really tight game, you know, potentially the match-winning assist, it's got to feel really special you know like a slight weight lifted off you as well definitely and what will Mikel Arteta have said to him on the sidelines come on and make the difference come on and win us the game it's easier said than done but Mike Nodegaard he had the composure he had the awareness in that moment that was required and yeah it must have been hard for him because he's the club captain but he's kind of lost his place in this team over the past couple of weeks, you know, he's not started in the last three.

35:20He's not the man in possession of the shirt. And I imagine that's an awkward place for him to occupy, but he was vital here, played such an important role. And I was really, really happy for him. And I think he was elated, relieved, all those emotions, you know, and probably absolutely determined to make a point and prove what he can do. And he did that. For sure. And I think if, you know, sort of stepping back a little more broadly, you know, if people want to be critical of Martin Odegaard this season, I understand why that's the case. I think some of it, you know, has been way over the top.

36:07The way he's become sort of like a lightning rod for some of the worst excesses of the online fan base. I don't agree with it at all. I can understand why you think he should do more or could do better, but this is the sort of stuff that you need from players like that. We've needed that from Martin Odegaard. You know, we haven't had it as much and players with that ability are, they're not 10 a penny. That's all I'll say. And you need those guys in your team doing things like that if you're going to go on and win the title And this is a title that will have been won by a huge collective effort with some really special individual moments thrown in.

36:48I think that was one of them yesterday. I really do. I think that Trossard, 25 games without a goal, and then he pops up with that. Odegaard, how long has it been since he got an assist in the Premier League? He pops up with that. You know, I'm not sure you can script it, but I think you have to appreciate what you've got sometimes, even if you don't get it as much as you would like. so that's all I'll say yeah and it has been a squad like you say a squad effort and there's a player in Odegaard coming off the bench to make a crucial contribution so after that and so that was it was it that was the end of the game that was it yeah final whistle went we all went home it was like my phone off at that point I mean it got really scrappy then which you would expect West Ham I think made a change They put Callum Wilson on.

37:42They had to go for it. They had to score a goal. It got really, really scrappy. There were loads and loads of free kicks. There were yellow cards being dished out all over the place. I think Trossard got one and Saka got one. Well, Saka was off at that point. Maybe Saliba got one. There was a red card for a West Ham coach for something that I don't really understand. Don't quite know what happened. Don't honestly care, to be honest. but I think you know when you're in that position when you're defending when you just want to get the game over the line there are going to be moments when you've got to put your body on the line you've got to defend like crazy there's a moment when Callum Wilson has a shot that's deflected behind by a block from Gabriel which to my mind is as important as the David Raya save.

38:38It is a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant piece of defending from Gabriel because if that goes in, there's no foul on anyone to save us. We're toast. We're toast if that goes in. And I think it sort of got overlooked a little bit in the bigger incident that followed because it was from the subsequent corner that the, in inverted commas, goal was scored. but it's a brilliant block from gabriel it's a huge piece of defending yeah and is it declan rice who's right next to him and or maybe it's kind of havert so i forget but immediately sort of turns around and roars his appreciation in his face it's a sensational block it needed to be i agree it's as big as any save it's as big a moment as any other in the game and it's the difference because there would have been no officials to save us if that hit the back of the net like you've just said and um well no one's really playing by ourselves so thank goodness it didn't come to it so the corner comes in yes um in the in the hundredth minute by this time i think are we on oh no not quite sorry that's after the that's after the review yeah after the review so it's the 95th minute corner comes in riot tries to catch it saliba uh sort of it bounces he tries to get it clear with his knee it falls for callum wilson he smacks the ball it hits declan rice who's like way back in the goal the ball is clearly over the line it's 1-1 and i thought i was gonna die yeah talk to me what real time what are you thinking i'm thinking fuck Fuck.

40:28Fuck. I was thinking Wolves. That was my first thought was Wolves. It's happened again. You know what? This season, however it plays out in the wash, I think we had this discussion a few weeks back or maybe over the course that we've had a tendency this season to concede late goals. It's been a little trait of this team. There are multiple games in which it's happened. And it is a little bit of a weakness. It hasn't really manifested itself of late, but I think you're right to reference the Wolves game. I thought, I just thought like, oh no, oh no. Did you think foul, Andrew? That's the key question.

41:15Not initially. Not initially, I have to say, because it was hard to see. When they started showing replays, I certainly became convinced that there was something for VAR to look at. And that's how it played out. But honestly, you know that, listen, everybody has had that feeling and I don't mean to trivialize this in any way, but over the course of our lives, I'm sure many of us have had, you know, that moment where you get some bad news and there is like a visceral reaction in the pit of your stomach, you know, that you can't help it. You get this news or you get this information and there is a, an extreme physical reaction to it.

42:05That goal in inverted commas going in felt like that. Like it really felt like just, Oh no. Oh no. Like immediately into the sort of realms of the surreal, you know, when something bad or whatever is happening in your life, there is a surreal element to it. Right. Because you, you sort of go, why is this happening to me? and look at that guy over there walking down the other side of the road. He's fine. His life is fine. I know exactly. You know what I mean? Your stomach sinks and you think, is this a bad dream? Yeah, kind of. You know? Kind of. It was like that. I just couldn't, not that I couldn't believe it, but it was just like, ugh.

42:54But it's usually reserved for sort of big life stuff. Yeah, exactly. That feeling, I think. Exactly. And that's why I don't. This is big life stuff. It is. It is for all of us. And that's, I'm trying to explain how it made me feel. And again, I'm not trying to trivialize anything that anybody has gone through or anything that I've gone through in my life, but that is, that is how it felt. That is how it felt. And, you know, as the, the footage continued and they started showing replays and they showed Pablo with his arm across Raya. the first one I thought was, whoa, he's got his arm across his neck so he can't jump.

43:36That's a foul. And then they showed another replay and you're like, okay, he's got his arm across his neck and he's got his hand on his arm pushing him down slightly. That's a foul. Like I was convinced quite quickly it was a foul. I was not necessarily convinced that they would see it like that. You know, that was the big question. And it was like, I think that's a foul, but I've often thought stuff is a foul or a penalty and it's not been given or they've decided that the threshold isn't sufficient to overturn the on-field decision. But I think what we know about the way VAR operates and whether you like it or not, and many of us don't, one of the complaints we've had is that when a goal is scored, they will go through it forensically to try and find any reason to disallow that goal.

44:33and that is what happens not just to arsenal but for every goal that scored that's how they look at it because there's a lot of talk now about was that a clear and obvious error from the the officials on the pitch you know which again is is just not how it works you know it really isn't um you might want it to be that way but it's not this is what happens anytime any team any player scores a goal they're in the VAR booth looking at everything is there an offside is there a foul is there a foul on the goalkeeper is there a handball is there this is there that that's what they do for better or worse so I think in this instance particularly when you see the replay from behind and some of the pictures that have been taken from behind there's also another foul on David Raya, you know, where apart from Pablo putting his arm across him, Tadibo is pulling his shirt.

45:32So it's two fouls on David Raya. And here's a thing I'll say about this as well, is that Shea Given, for example, on Match of the Day, I don't know if you saw the Match of the Day footage. I did see the analysis, yeah. I've never known, I've never seen anyone get more wrong in such a short space of time than Shea Given did in that piece of analysis where the referee, I think it's Darren Kan, he's an ex-referee or assistant referee, explains exactly why that goal was disallowed and why the foul on Raya was seen differently from some of the other holding, et cetera, that was going on. And Shea Given said something about, well, you know, I think Raya should have been a bit stronger, should have come out, should have jumped.

46:17He was being fouled. That's why he couldn't jump. And I think if you go back and look at this game, West Ham had other set pieces and West Ham had other corners that David Raya came and got. So he demonstrated very clearly in this game, he has the ability to come and get those really well-delivered crosses from Jared Bone in particular with his left foot is really, really good at delivering those balls in. And Raya must have got at least two or three of them away. So he demonstrated in this game, I am capable of dealing with this. And in this instance, because he's being held down, because his shirt is being pulled from behind, he can't make the catch.

46:59He can't really get his feet off the ground. He can't jump. It is a foul on the goalkeeper. And for that reason, I think the goal is rightly disallowed. 100%. It's the right decision. Yes, I agree. I thought, I think, frankly, if David Ryder is not being fouled twice, he probably just collects that ball, as he has done all season long. The foul is directly relevant to the goal in that it prohibits him from doing that. And I think that's why, you know, I know others have pointed out, oh, Declan Rice is holding or Trossard's holding. There are other things going on in the bench. Well, they don't have the same degree of relevance or impact, I think, in the goal that is scored as the two fouls on Raya.

47:49So I think it was the right decision. To what extent did you fear that the size of the decision might influence the outcome? You know, was there any sort of paranoia or concern that the significance of the goal might inhibit the officials' willingness to overturn it? Yeah, a little bit. I think as well because of the timing of it. I think if this is an incident that happens 10 minutes into the game, it doesn't feel anywhere near as big, right? Obviously the timing of it because it's injury time and because it does have such a significant impact on the title race and the relegation battle. I did wonder, I mean, it...

48:30For the league, it's better if it stands, right? Like from an entertainment neutrals perspective, oh, the relegation fight is closer than ever. The title race is closer than ever. You know, there is that thing of like, well, and that's why, by the way, so many people are kicking off online saying, oh, it should never have stood, because they didn't want it to. Sorry, it should never have been disallowed, because they just didn't want that. They didn't want that outcome. They wanted the drama. And it was high drama. Yeah. But I think ultimately the right decision was reached. And probably, I believe it was said on commentary as well, but probably the biggest VAR call in the history of the Premier League, given the ramifications at both ends of the table.

49:11Yeah. Yeah, probably. It was interminable, I have to say. It really, really was. It was just like, oh, God, they're showing him, and then they're saying he's going to go over for a view. And you know, you know, deep down that most of the time, 99 % of the time, when a referee is called over to the monitor, the decision is going to be overturned, or they're going to, you know, adjudge that a foul has been made. But you never know. You never quite know. And then we got this. After review, West Ham number 19 commits a foul on the goalkeeper. Final decision is direct free kick. I nearly melted off the sofa when that happened.

50:01You know, it's a big, big decision. I think it's the right decision. I think some of the arguments around it are not really relevant to what happened. You know, you can talk about VAR, the implementation of VAR if you want. By all means, it's a conversation people have been having a long time, but it is what it is, right? We know that when goalkeepers are fouled, more often than not, the decision is going to go their way. The discussion about holding and wrestling and grappling in the box, I think, is a perfectly valid one, but it's not relevant to this. I did think it was hilarious. You know, the West Ham keeper, for very obvious reasons, right, was, you know, he said, oh, no, it's terrible, terrible, terrible.

50:46Peter Schmeichel moaning and wailing, you know, about how it was a crazy, crazy decision. Shea Given being as wrong as wrong can be all over a match of the day. It's mad to me because I think these are just, it's crooked analysis. Because every single one of those goalkeepers, if that had happened to them, would be demanding the free kick, the foul, the overturned decision without question. Without question, they would be doing that. And I think sometimes you have to acknowledge that for all the criticisms that we make of referees and everything else, sometimes they get it absolutely right. I think this is one where they got it 100 % spot on.

51:29And anyone trying to say it's not a foul on Raya is just a bad faith. You can ignore those people. They're wind-up merchants, whatever it is. It's clearly a foul on Raya. And I will say this, and we've said it I don't know how many times. If Arsenal had scored that goal at a key point in the game, I don't think you or I could sit here this morning and complain about that goal being disallowed. We might be pissed off about it because of how much it might have meant. We might have been sad or frustrated. We might go all in. But you can't complain when your striker puts his arm across the goalkeeper and holds his arm.

52:13And one of your center halves is pulling the goalkeeper shirt to prevent him getting off the ground. You can't look at what happened and in good faith, with honesty in your heart, say, that's not a foul. It's just kind of ridiculous the way it's gone. I just think it's born out of this sort of pervasive dislike of Arsenal and us not wanting to win the league. The people are just not willing to accept that it was a foul. The goal was chalked off. and it was the right decision, and there's no two ways about it. Yeah, I think a lot of the grievances come from the idea that Arsenal have spent the season kind of exploiting the margins in these set-piece situations.

53:05And I think probably people feel a little bit resentful that here's a team that are being punished for pulling, you know, holding, whatever it might be, when they perceive that Arsenal have been at it all year. And look, that sort of position is not entirely without merit. What I would say is Arsenal are pretty clever at it. Like if Arsenal do exploit those margins, they do it in a way which doesn't get pulled up. You know, I think Arsenal are actually very skilled at their blocking, their holding, at doing it in a way that for the most part avoids detection. Having your arm around a goalkeeper's neck and pulling him from the other side, I'm afraid that is going to get caught out.

54:01And that's, I think, an interesting part of it is that people say Arsenal have been doing this all year. Well, Arsenal do kind of do a bit of that, but they do it smarter and better. I also thought it was interesting, Did you watch Match of the Day, the kind of Darren Kan analysis where he was talking about this problem? And I am open to that, even as an Arsenal fan, as someone who's seen my team profit from situations and, you know, to slightly kind of mask things in crowded six yard boxes. I do think this is a bit of a problem for the Premier League. I think it is something that probably needs addressing.

54:36I mean, what he was positing was the idea that attackers shouldn't be allowed in the six-yard box until the corner kick has been taken. I think that's actually quite an interesting premise.

54:53But it's not relevant right now, unfortunately, for everyone else. You know, you're not going to introduce it two games before the end of the season. So the rules are what they are. Arsenal have done the same thing all year and the goal's correctly overturned. No, yeah, but I mean, I think, you know, so touching on that, by the way, if you're Gabrielle, how much would you like that rule where you can't be in the six yard box until the ball is kicked? That's like, oh, yeah, bring it on. I'll have some of that because, you know, we can work on that and make that really effective. But the idea I think is that Arsenal have exploited the margins at set pieces, as you say, is absolutely true.

55:33100%. where I think we verge into this sort of post-truth society that we live in is when people say, as has been said, not just by Shea Given and by countless other pundits and presenters in the last sort of 18 hours or so, is that Arsenal have scored loads of goals like this where they're blocking the goalkeeper and fouling the goalkeeper and everyone sort of goes, yeah, yeah, they have. They haven't. We haven't. You know, we have been very, very effective from set pieces. We are physical. We make life horrible for the opposition from set pieces. But we don't make blatant fouls on the goalkeeper and score loads of goals from that.

56:22We just do not. It does not happen. No. Remember Ben White being punished for it. I was just going to say, against Leicester, you know, and it was a little tug on the goalkeeper's arm. Varsal and the goal I think was scored by Trossard was disallowed right that's the that's the only one I can really remember they keep bringing up this um the one at the start of the season with Manchester United with that uh I can't remember his name Byandere in goal and there's sort of like a still image of Saliba touching Byandere's arm but if you look at the actual footage of it it's not anything close to what we saw yesterday.

57:05But, you know, if you say, well, Arsenal have scored loads of goals like this, and they're always blocking the goalkeeper, and people are like, yeah, they do. It's that thing, if you just say it enough times, plenty of people will believe it, whether it's true or not. You know, and it's an indictment of where we are as, you know, a society that that's so pervasive in the world that we live in, whether it's in sport or politics or just fucking whatever. The idea that you can just say something over and over again, and eventually it becomes accepted as truth when demonstrably it's not, you know, and I think yesterday and in particular, I thought that was a really, really well done piece on match of the day where they got the referee.

57:47He explained it in very, very simple and effective terms. And then Shea Given made an idiot of himself trying to argue against something that was essentially inarguable. Well, it's interesting. Sheik, Peter Schmeichel. It's almost as if some of these pundits and analysts might have affinities or loyalties to rival teams, Andrew. Well, you know what? If Peter Schmeichel has an affinity to Manchester City after all the years he spent at Manchester United, he's a bigger cunt than I already think he is. To be honest, I actually forgot he played for them. I just meant as a United guy. But yes, good point.

58:29good point so there was still like 150 000 minutes to play after that goal was that goal was disallowed they said on commentary on sky so nobody knows how much time there is left to play i was like oh god that's true i don't like normally with injury time you can get over the six minutes and if there's no incident like this you're going come on referee blow it up blow I had no idea how long it was going to take. No idea. And I was a bag of frayed nerves at that point. West Ham kept pumping the ball in. I think Mavropanos headed wide right at the end, but the final whistle went. That guy, Mavropanos, he's determined to sort of have his impact in Arsenal's destiny, isn't he?

59:17Yeah, he really is. He really is. Listen, the guy's just doing his job, so fair play. But the way the players sort of slumped to the ground after the final whistle was indicative of what an effort they had put in and what I think they'd been through physically and mentally, you know, to go through that. I was watching the post-game stuff on Sky and Odegaard was asked about the VAR review. And he said like something along the lines of, well, you're so focused on the game, you don't really feel the stress of it in the way that people at home might be feeling it. I thought that was a fascinating aspect of his post-game interview.

1:00:05Maybe that's true just for him. I don't know, but I cannot think that the Arsenal players weren't on the edge mentally with their nerves when that review was taking place. And the way they fell to the ground, exhausted physically, mentally. There's a great shot, by the way, I don't know if you caught this. There's a great shot of Arteta. He celebrates with his fans. He gives Albert Steubenberg's shoulder a little bit of a kiss. he celebrates with Jover and Gabrielle Ainsa and then goes over to Nuno Espirito Santo they have a handshake and a bit of a hug and as Nuno goes off down the touchline Arteta turns around and just sort of goes you could just see him exhale with relief and I thought that said a lot about what we'd all gone through because I think we were all kind of Mikel Arteta at that moment.

1:01:07Yeah, a rollercoaster, a real emotional rollercoaster. And the adrenaline levels must have been through the roof. I mean, what you say about the players, I think what Odegaard says is really interesting. But if you watch the way the players react when that ball hits the net, most of them are immediately around the referee and protesting and quite right too. I sort of think that's actually probably really important. I think probably if Arsenal players all just collapse to the turf and that's that, maybe there's not the same degree of scrutiny. I think, unfortunately, in the league, you have to ask for it sometimes.

1:01:45You know, people say introduce an appeal system. Well, there is kind of an informal one and the players and the managers on the touchline kind of operate that for themselves. But yeah, it must have been, I mean, yeah, I cannot imagine how they must have felt and the relief and the joy at full time because, you know, we didn't spend a great deal of time talking about this at the top. But for me, this was sort of, and I take nothing for granted, don't get me wrong, I'm putting all the caveats in. But for me, this was kind of the game remaining in the Premier League campaign. This was the one where I was like, it's a potential banana skin.

1:02:24All the way through the running, I've been looking at it thinking I could easily see a draw in that game. And listen, it could very easily have been a draw. So to win, it's gargantuan really. And I think it puts us in a fantastic position to go on and win the league. it's not even beyond the realms of possibility that we could still have that fantastic night at the Emirates as well When do City play? They play against Palace I believe on Wednesday On Wednesday So if Yeah If Palace Drop points for City If Palace gets something from that game let's say it's a draw a win against Burnley and we win the league Would win the league.

1:03:19Oh, God. And if not, there's a chance, of course, that we win the league while we're not playing. Because obviously, if we were to beat Burnley, Manchester City play the next night away to Bournemouth. And depending on how things have played out, drop points there could mean winning the title. Alternatively, of course, it goes to Palace and it goes to the final day. I mean, listen, I don't want to bring anybody down. Certainly not. It's a huge win. The relief and joy was, as you say, palpable. I just don't think you can look at this season and think that, you know, it's going to be plain sailing from here on in.

1:04:04I agree with you about this game. You know, the West Ham game was the one I was looking at as, okay, this could be really, really tough. You know, West Ham away. They've been much better under Nuno. than they were earlier in the season. They're scrapping for their lives against relegation. Some of the results didn't go our way in that sense, you know, because of the way it panned out with the other lot winning and West Ham dropping points and dropping into the relegation zone. So it's always going to be really, really tough. But, you know, there is 180 minutes of football still to play in this league.

1:04:42And, you know, after what we have experienced in the previous 36 games, I cannot allow myself to think it's just, oh, it's done now. That's it. You know, just do what we need to do. There's too much going on this season. I hope it's routine. I hope there's no more drama, to be honest. I've had enough. I've had plenty of drama. I would just like some nice relaxing football if that would be okay for everybody. but yeah it was huge and you know it is i think as you say i said at the top this is one of those games that will probably be talked about as momentous if we do get the the title under our belts i think people will look back on this game and that amount of drama and think oh my god that That was the day.

1:05:36That was the day. Yeah, I don't know what else to say. I'm nearly as tired after that first half of the show as I was at the end of the game. No, I think that's it. A game with a single goal in it. And we've probably talked about it for longer than any other match this season. Yeah. There you go. Oh, my God. All right. Listen, will we take a little break and do the usual? Yes, let's do that. Let's do that. We'll come back with your questions and more in part two, right after this.

1:06:21Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest-growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S.

1:06:53national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On the Ball. It's a game in The Guardian app, and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this... Well, I think the problem is if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on-the-move expert analysis. The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more.

1:07:22Welcome back to the Arsecast Extra. This is part two of the show where we answer the questions that you sent to us on Blue Sky. at gunnerblog.bsky.social and at arseblog.com. Also on the Arseblog Discord chat server, which you get access to if you are an Arseblog member on Patreon. Can I tell you a little story before we get into the questions? Because I meant to, I said I have to tell James this and by extension everybody else. Oh yeah, please do. Please do. So yesterday, pre-game, went for a little walk around the park, you know, just to sort of stretch the legs and stopped off in the local for a pint.

1:08:02A little lunchtime pint, you know, before work. It was Celtic versus Rangers. The old firm Derby was on. And the pub, as you might expect in this part of the world, was absolutely packed with Celtic fans. So it's one one-a-half time. It's a tight game. There's a lot to play for in the SPL still. Celtic, of course, want to beat Rangers for the Derby's sake, but it also keeps their title hopes alive. Yeah. They scored a brilliant goal. The third goal they scored was fucking unbelievable. I don't know if you've seen it yet. Have you seen that one? The overhead kick? I actually haven't. No, I was also busy, but I, yeah, Maida, wasn't it?

1:08:44Yeah, Dyson Maida. It's an unbelievable goal. Unbelievable. Check out the replays at your local internet shop. They'll have it in all the usual places. But anyway. That season is kind of incredible, by the way, the SPL. It's headed towards a crazy conclusion where I think Celtic and Hearts play each other on the final day. They do. I'm mad. So there was a lot at stake. And about 10 minutes into the second half, Celtic score a goal to go 2-1 up. And the power was mad. Everyone's going, get in all this. And everyone's celebrating. and there is just i don't know this this moment of silence i don't know where it came from but as the tv footage showed a famous rock star celtic fan having a great time enjoying the goal the pub just sort of fell silent out of nowhere and from the back of the pub somewhere you just hear this voice going, fuck off, Rod Stewart.

1:09:55And it made me laugh so much. It made me laugh so much. It was brilliant. So there you go. That was my little old firm story. Oh, man. No mercy for Rod Stewart. So there you go. No, no. Shots fired. I heard, by the way, that Sky finished their coverage of the game with a Phil Collins song. Get out of here. Did they? Yeah, I think in the air tonight. Oh, the worst Phil Collins song. The worst. As if you weren't on the ropes already. You know what I mean? They were like, this will finish him off. Thankfully, I turned off at that stage. But yeah, the very, very worst of all the Phil Collins songs.

1:10:36I hate that song. We were just chatting in the break about how I was kind of spared this experience. I mean, who knows if I would have made it to Monday morning to do a podcast if I'd been watching the game. I watched a boxing match on Saturday night, Fabio Wardley against Daniel Dubois. And it was the kind of fight which was pretty brutal, actually. It was a difficult watch at times. And you watch it and you think, well, that's taken years potentially off their lives. I feel like watching this game might have taken years off my life. Maybe so. So, you know, for the sake of my longevity, I'm glad that I was away from it.

1:11:14Yeah, we had a lot of questions about defibrillators and hearts and cardiologists and all of that stuff. We don't have the answers. I'm very sorry. I wish I had a magic pill that you could all take that would make everything. Oh, I do. Oh, yeah, you can get those, actually. But I don't know if we can get 60 ,000 of them into the Emirates. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there you go. Do you want to go first or will I go first? Yeah, let's do some questions. I think, let's do this one. Sean Hartnett says, is there any concern we lose Zubamendi mentally for the last three games? Subbing him out was the right call, but I'm sure it does nothing for his confidence, which doesn't seem high at the moment anyway.

1:12:00We had another question from another Sean, actually, on the Discord, BouncySean, who said, does it speak to the character of Zubamendi that he was subbed off and didn't complain? I loved his attitude of I'm just going to run off and not give out about being taken off because it is the, you know, the worst thing for a player, you know, beyond, let's say, getting injured or whatever. But being a sub and then getting subbed is, is hard. You know, it is a bit humiliating.

1:12:33I also enjoyed the fact that he didn't make a fuss in any way. I think it was the right thing for Mikel Arteta to do. And I think maybe Zubomendi recognized that it was the right thing for him to do. It was the wrong sub. And Arteta had to put it right, and he did. Whether we lose him mentally for three games, I don't know. I don't think so. I don't think you can do what he's done in the game and play for Spain and win the Euros and, you know, be a top level footballer without having a lot of mental strength and character. And I think this will be really difficult for him. There's no question about that for me.

1:13:17It will be difficult for him because it is just a horrible thing to happen to you as a footballer. But I also think we need to remember, again, going back to what we talked about with Martin Odegaard a little bit, I think we have to remember the first half of the season, Zubimendi, a bit more. I don't think he's had a great second half to the season. I think he's really struggled in some games. But I also think it's not necessarily representative of the quality of the player. You know, he scored a lot of goals for us. What, he got six or seven goals this season? quite a few of them in the Premier League.

1:13:53Some really good goals. I think we asked too much of him in his first season in the Premier League, you know, and then it comes back to that midfield discussion we had last week or the week before, you know, about, you know, Norgard and, you know, how we recruit and whether we did enough to have redundancy in those positions. But I think he still has a role to play. I think he's still an important player, a really good player. And yeah, it's been a difficult few weeks for him. But I think maybe there's a part to his story that's yet to be told. So hopefully we get to see that in the next three games that we play.

1:14:35By the way, what a week for Arsenal. We didn't even mention the fact that we're in the Champions League final. So much drama yesterday. that's yesterday's chip paper in a way. So, I mean, it's, yeah, I just want to get your reaction, obviously, to that and the fact that we're going to be in Budapest in a Champions League final for the first time in 20 years. Yeah, crazy. I mean, you know, we spoke briefly the other day, didn't we? But it just, it is an incredibly good week for Arsenal Football Club. and I think it kind of speaks to the importance of both competitions that we've almost been able to kind of focus individually on these games and almost block all that other stuff out.

1:15:27On Zubimendi, I commend him on his professionalism, the way he took the substitution. It's so easy as a footballer in that situation to throw your hands up or walk down the tunnel or decline a handshake. Do you know what I mean? Like the tiniest gesture picked up on camera, a rolled eye. Anything can tell a huge story and become a huge story. And credit to Zubomendi for not falling into those rather perilous traps. In terms of do we lose him mentally, I don't think so. I think he's too good a pro. Do we get Zubomendy back as the player he was in the first half of the season between now and the end of the month?

1:16:20That's where I'm more worried. I do think Mikel Otea, having brought him on and made that change, and it not work, will he be a bit more reticent in future games to introduce him? Maybe. Maybe. He certainly doesn't look like a player who is going to reclaim his starting place between now and the end of the campaign. And, you know, if I told you that in September, October, I think you would have been hugely surprised. If you told me that two weeks ago, I would have been surprised. Sorry, I forget. Genuinely. Before the Fulham game, basically. Yeah, I mean, we had a question from AceVentura85 on the Discord.

1:17:07He said, I'm sure there'll be loads of valid questions about the selection and subs, but without wanting to dampen the vibes, can we step back a bit? We've gone from running Zubimendi and Rice into the ground to starting Myles Lewis-Skelly at six in a, well, not at six, but in midfield in three consecutive games, three of the biggest games in the club's recent history, and even putting our best player temporarily at right back to accommodate Myles Lewis-Gelley in midfield. How did we get here? And what does that say about Mikel's approach to squad rotation and trusting the squad players or at least giving them a chance?

1:17:42I mean, it is just a fascinating development. How did we get here? By accident, I think. I don't think this was a plan or a grand design. You know, Mikel's spoken about being hard on miles and the process he's been through and learning to understand each other. I don't think through that process Mikel thought, yeah, he'll be starting pivotal games for me at the end of the season in central midfield. What did you think of those comments? Because he's usually quite, what's the word I'm looking for? Quite guarded in terms of how he talks. Yeah, discreet, you know, about how he talks about his players.

1:18:28But I think, you know, he was full of praise for Miles. And then he also, you know, said what he said about how he's been tough on him. But then he also said stuff about how, you know, Miles has had to learn and to deal with, you know, I think. paraphrasing, right? He should have said in not so many words, I put it up to him and he had to respond or he had to deal with the disappointment of being a first choice player. And now he's on the sidelines and it took a while for that to happen. That's me paraphrasing, right? What did you make of him being so open about those? I think you can call them issues between himself and Miles over the course of this season where it hasn't necessarily been the season he would have liked.

1:19:17And he's probably been really frustrated. And maybe the manager has been hard on him. And maybe the manager has been a bit frustrated with Miles at the same time. But now we've reached this sort of sweet spot where, you know, not everything's right again, but we're in a – the two of them are in a really good moment. Yeah, it is unusual. I think part of the reason we're getting this kind of fuller explanation is because it does raise so many questions. It does raise so many questions of kind of where has Miles been in his thinking? Why has it taken so long for him to get this opportunity? And I think Mikhail probably feels a bit of a responsibility to provide a little more clarity there.

1:20:01I think it's a really interesting dynamic. I think Miles has had a really frustrating season where he's gone from being a regular starter to a squad player, where he's lost his place in the England set-up, where he's seen a World Cup potentially disappear that he looked absolutely nailed on for. I mean, who knows? He's on a great run of form. Could he get a last-minute reprieve? Hey, we had a question. Luke Kempner said, does MLS go to the World Cup now? It's only right that MLS should play in the land of Major League Soccer, but does it really open the door for him again? It could do. I mean, Thomas Tuchel loves him, and he's always been very emphatic in his praise of Myles, but has just said he's just not played enough high-level football.

1:20:56Obviously, he's showing now one attribute he brings, which is really valuable in any touring party, is versatility. You know, in the course of the game yesterday, he was in midfield, he was at left back. I think he's got a chance. I think the lad at Man City, what's his name? He's been the bane of our lives. The left back, Mook something maybe? Who? Who's the Man City left back? Oh, Nico O 'Reilly. Nico O 'Reilly, yeah. I knew it was a vaguely Gaelic name. I think he's probably nailed on for the left-back spot. But there's no one else really who's an outstanding candidate. And people say Lewis Hall, he's not had a great season.

1:21:43I do wonder if Myles now has an outside shot once again of getting back in. And what a turnaround that would represent. But I think in an Arsenal context, I think for him to have kind of come through the fire, as it were, and sort of pass this test, this protracted test that Mikel Arteta is going to put him through is a really significant moment. And I think it could be more significant than his initial breakthrough. I think it might have been more difficult than his initial breakthrough. It's been the first major adversity of his career and he's overcome it. And I think when you step back from it, actually maybe that's much more normal than we might initially think or acknowledge young player breaks through everything's easy for them everything seems to be going their way and then they hit a bit of a roadblock and they have to find new solutions or new reserves of commitment or energy or quality to re-establish themselves and i think the fact that he's done that is a huge credit to miles as an individual i think as well you have to recognize that that opportunity often comes from periods of adversity you know where i don't think we see miles in midfield if rice and zubimendi are you know tearing it up together and we're winning lots of games the move from miles to midfield came after a period of results and performances that were not exactly optimal you know does it happen if we win a load of games probably not you know so i remember being in pre-season uh in asia last summer and just thinking miles looks to step off it yeah i agree yeah we talked about it he carried that i think i think the impression that he made in that period uh seemed to carry over into the campaign maybe so but he's come back from it in real style sure um and it's great and he may have changed his future he really may have changed his future what next for us well we had this question uh i'm going to look for it now yes matt bonito said with white injured and timber apparently dead do you think it's worth checking to see if we have any spare hoists still knocking and obviously the broader question here is about the right back area the the return of jury and timber would be extremely welcome right now right because it does look he was on the pitch wasn't he at full time in a tracksuit i'm led to believe Okay, well, let's see.

1:24:38Which is one up from the Athletic game where he was in civilian clothing. Right. And the week before that, he was in a full body cast. Yeah. He's going in the right direction. Dragging his own coffin behind him. I mean, listen, I think - Quick one, by the way, before you go on. After the Athletic game, I was down in the mix zone, which is sort of where players come through. I think they're obliged to kind of pass through and some of them stop and talk to the media. but also families and agents and other people kind of congregate to meet the players. And there was a guy sort of hanging around that area who looked exactly like Jureen Timber.

1:25:21I wonder who that could have been. Well, I spent about 20 minutes trying to work it out. I was like, I'm pretty sure it's Jureen Timber. But is it his twin brother? And I sort of couldn't, I honestly changed my mind about 10 times in the process of that. But Transpires during Timber was very much there. Right. Well, that's good. I mean, listen, Timber's return would be great if White's season is over, which is a real, real shame because of like, you know, I think he played himself into some form and rhythm. Like there was no real choice for Michel Arteta. He could have played Muscara in certain games, of course.

1:26:02But I think, you know, there's a lot of trust in Ben White because of what he's done previously for Arsenal. I think he was really, really good against Atletico Madrid the other night. So it's a massive shame that he could potentially miss the rest of the season. Maybe the World Cup as well with England. Champions League final if Timber's not available. I think Mascara is the only option. We had like questions on the Discord. There was one from, let me see if I can find it here, Harry Power29, who's a bit worried about Mosquera against Kvara Shkelia. A bit sort of worried about everyone apart from Timber against Kvara Shkelia, to be honest.

1:26:46But he was wondering, could Incapier be an option? I don't really think so. But, yeah, I think it's probably going to have to be Mosquera, no? I think so I think so I mean I think if there's any way we can get Jurjen Timber back for the Champions League final I think it would be massive sort of running out of similes for big don't know about you but there's only so many ways you can say it at this point in time and but how much football does he have to play for you to be able to throw him into a Champions League final. Yeah. You know, how much do we have to have seen of him? He probably needs to be involved against Burnley to some extent, even if he's not starting.

1:27:36If you could get half an hour into him and then 45 minutes, an hour against Crystal Palace just to get some rhythm, some match sharpness. It'd be a lot to throw him in cold. You know, it's what, 20 days, 19 days to the Champions League final. So I don't know. Yeah, I mean, to be honest with you, I don't know on Timber and White. I've sort of woken up on a hangover, watched the game, and come straight on the podcast. But where I'm at with it mentally is having seen White limp out yesterday, my fear is that could be him done, as you said, in part one for the season. And so I'm sort of more looking at Timber now.

1:28:27and thinking, can we get, how close is he? How much should we read into that track suit? I feel like he's the one who's got the better chance almost at this point in time. Yeah, I mean, Arteta was pretty quick to rule him out of this game when he was asked about him, asked about his fitness. And listen, this was an injury that was supposed to be a few days and here we are a good few weeks later and it's still not right for him. But I think what you'll find maybe is if there's any possible way that they can get him back, they will, you know.

1:29:05Through fair means. Yeah, through fair means is what I mean. Through fair means. Through fair means. Full stop. Absolutely. That's what I meant. Through fair and just means. We'll get some jury and timber back, hopefully. What about this? From questions, so many questions. they say there was a lot of talk about one of our stars needing to step up and go stratospheric a la Mo Salah last season to win the league we haven't won anything yet but if we do it won't be because anyone has done that in no strict order Big Gabby Martinelli Ezeh Yokarez Downman Saka Raya Trossard have all had their pivotal moments but most would say Rice has been our best player and that's a different kind of impact if we win the league will we be the exception that proves the rule or is this a new way of winning it's a good question you know and there have been certainly people messaging me over the past 24 hours to suggest maybe raya is that one who's gone to a stratospheric level in terms of his importance and the contributions he's made But I don't think that's necessarily what anyone meant or anticipated when they talked about that needing to be something that happens.

1:30:30I think Victor Jokeres' goal return in the second half of the season deserves some mention in that conversation as something that really did change in the running and in the final part of the campaign and saw a player hit a new level compared to what they'd shown previously. but this is an Arsenal team that is principally about the collective

1:30:55it to be honest has been for some time and actually the way Miklarteta has managed his squad built his squad you know I think it kind of fits with that I mean his biggest signing is Declan Rice who is the quintessential team player someone who will do whatever he's asked to do If he's asked to play number eight, he'll do it. If he's asked to play number six, he'll do it. If he's asked to go in at right back, he'll do it.

1:31:27I'm sure Mikel Arteta would love a Thierry Henry or a Messi or a Haaland or whoever it was, you know, an individual who was capable of kind of doing it single-handedly. And I heard him speak about Bakayosaka a little bit in that context before this game. He spoke about his aura. but I'm not sure. I think that was probably, I think there was an element of truth in that, but I think it was as much about kind of building Saka up ahead of what is a huge, huge few games for him. I think this is a collective, a group and they share responsibility in many, many, many ways. And actually we keep having these debates about individual accolades, you know, who should be the football of the year, who's Arsenal's player of the year.

1:32:13Well, it strikes me that that's missing the point, really. it's not about that it's about the wider group and what they've achieved collectively couldn't agree more to be honest um i think you know we'd obviously be better served is that the right way of putting it or maybe we'd be in a better position if one or two absolutely did hit a a new level from an attacking perspective and i think that's really what the question is about right because i think over the course of this season i think you could make a great case for Raya. I think Saliba has been brilliant. I think Gabriel has been absolutely brilliant.

1:32:48You know, and you could say in those terms, defensive terms, we maybe have got players who've gone to a different level and have been really useful. But I think when people look at that question, it's all about, like, who's the guy that's going to get a hat-trick in successive games? Or who's going to score 15 goals in the last 10 games? You know, and we haven't necessarily had that player. Although I think you're right to credit Jokeres with his goal scoring in the second half of the season. But that's it. The collective strength of the team is greater than any one individual, I think, which is probably a positive thing.

1:33:32You get accusations of, oh, you're too reliant on this guy or that guy. And that can be true. You know, a team can be too reliant on one player or two players that when they don't deliver or can't deliver because they're not available, the team just doesn't really have an answer. As I always feel like even if the football hasn't always been brilliant this year, you sort of back this team to find an answer somewhere more often than not. Yeah, yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Absolutely right. is it my question? I think so yeah yeah yeah I think it is okay so this is from Tramp Buddha on Blue Sky and they say goodly morning fine gentlemen Ian Wright mentioned and I'm taking Tramp Buddha's word for this that if Arsenal win the Champions League and the league they should be considered the greatest Arsenal team of all time do you agree and if so should we be enjoying it?

1:34:36more i think enjoying it listen we'll have time for that should it happen but do you agree with ian's assessment there

1:34:49um i mean you i think there's always a tendency to compare one thing with another thing right like you know the way we were always looking for the new Patrick Vieira or indeed the new Ian Wright there's always a you know we've got to get the strike we've got to get the new Ian Wright we've got to get the new Patrick Vieira we've got to get the new Thierry Henry I think you know it would obviously be a unique achievement an historic achievement you know for Arsenal to to win the Champions League we've won the league lots of times we haven't won it recently and we all want that to happen and hope that can happen and we're in a great position to make it happen.

1:35:34It would be a unique achievement. I just wouldn't necessarily be able to say with any certainty that this achievement is or puts this team or this group of players above the invincibles. Because I think that in and of itself is so unique and so difficult and nobody's been able to do it since. even with all the money and all the not fair means that have been going on with certain football clubs who have exploited the financial loopholes of the Premier League and football and won lots and lots and lots of stuff because of the money that they've had available to them. They have not been able to do what the Invincibles did.

1:36:26So if we do it, I'll be as fucking happy as anybody in the world but i think i need to i need to put them on like the same pedestal as teams that did something remarkable and incredible and brilliant that we should be able to enjoy as arsenal fans without saying well those guys are better than those guys or what they did is better than that you know i think we just have to be able to enjoy things on their own merits So that's where I'd be with that. Yeah, I think I feel more comfortable saying that it could be considered Arsenal's greatest season, maybe, than Arsenal's greatest team. I think for comparisons of teams are very, very difficult.

1:37:16Very, very difficult. But in terms of a kind of an outcome of a season, and, you know, those two trophies would be very difficult to pass. What's special about the Invincibles is how unique it is as a feat and I think it will always kind of stand alone for that reason. But this would be right up there with it, right up there with it. I mean, I mentioned this the other day, but obviously on the exterior of the Emirates Stadium, there's the mural. I believe it's of the first Women's Champions League winners and perhaps the Invincibles on the other side. But I do think they potentially have to make room for some of these guys up there because it would just be a quite sensational return.

1:38:13I want to see some scaffolding put up at the end of the season and poorly drawn Arsenal given license to add the current team into that incredible mural of the first Champions League winners and the Invincibles. I think we all want to see that, you know. I would like to see his take on it too. What about this from Philosopher, who says, does yesterday's drama help the players not get overconfident before the Burnley and Palace games? I can't for the life of me think that anyone within the club thinks those games are as easy as is widely suggested. Ask me that again, Andrew. Sorry, man. I just saw a text message come through that totally took my attention away.

1:39:01Was it about getting 60 ,000 pills for next Monday night? I'm doing what I can. I'm pulling some strings. All right. The question was, does yesterday's drama help the players not get overconfident before the Burnley and Palace games? I can't for the life of me think that anyone within the club thinks those games are as easy as is widely suggested. Well, no, I'm sure that the focus remains very intense and very serious indeed. as much as we might sit on the sidelines and say, oh, West Ham's the one. If we can get past West Ham, we know that Mikel Arteta doesn't approach it like that. He looks at every game individually.

1:39:44What's the biggest one? The next one.

1:39:50Look, we have to beat Burnley at home. We have to beat Burnley at home. I mean, that is, you know, if we're serious about being Premier League champions, a relegated Burnley team at the Emirates Stadium with the title on the line, I mean, there's only one correct outcome there. Palace feels like a bit of a wild card in some ways because, you know, we're operating under the idea that this is going to be a weakened Palace team and maybe a less motivated Palace team. But that, I don't know, I've just got, I do have something in the back of my mind that, you know, it doesn't always pan out quite like that.

1:40:32No. Anyone who thinks Palace away is going to be a walkover just because they're preparing for a European final. Yeah, I would say think again. Like they will be, I'm sure their team selection will be reflective of the bigger and more important game they have to play. But it's still a difficult game away from home, a London derby. And we may need to win that game to win the title. yeah and it's Palace's last home game of the season it's their send off to the final and they'll want to give their fans a good day out so you know I don't take anything for granted I think we will do it from here you know I really do I think we ought to from here we've fought back to be in a position where we're in control of our own destiny

1:41:29and I feel good about it. But I also, the reason I feel good about it is that I have faith that no one internally will be taking it for granted. No, I think anyone who knows the way this team is set up and the way this manager operates, like it'll be full seriousness for both of these games. I'll tell you what though, before we go, and we do need to sort of go and get this podcast out to everybody to listen to. It does feel like after what, you know, has been such a busy few weeks with the Champions League games, you know, the two semifinals, the drama of yesterday, the previous games, you know, Fulham was obviously a bit of a feel-good factor, but before that, you know, it was sort of non-stop, non-stop, non-stop.

1:42:18To have a full week, despite the fact this game has been moved, obviously, from Sunday to Monday, which has inconvenienced a lot of people in a, you know, in a really bad way. People who have booked their flights and travel and trains from all over everywhere, you know, to come to the game on Sunday, to have it moved at late notice by Sky, which was a horrible decision. It does feel like a small luxury amid all this drama to have a week off, for the players to have that time to just sort of decompress, particularly after yesterday, and prepare properly for this Burnley game on Monday? Yeah, I think so.

1:43:02Well, you know that exhalation you saw from Mikel Arteta after he turned away from Nuno on the touchline? That big breath out. Yeah. I think that's all of us, basically, over the next few days. That's it. Take a breath. At least until Wednesday night. and Man City Crystal Palace. Well, you know, there's nothing we can do about that. Nothing we can do. So I'm not going to get my hopes up, but I'm not going to let it, you know, do my head in if it goes the way I think it's going to go because there's nothing we can do about it and it still remains in our hands. And, you know, with two games to go, that's a fucking nice place to be.

1:43:41So there we go. Right. Will we leave it there? I feel exhausted. I really do. I do too. I think so. I think let's get it out to people. Let's get it out. So go on. Did you have something to say? I don't know what's happening where I am, but it sounds like the building may be flooding or something. I don't know. Can you hear that? It's like sort of water dripping. It's very ominous. No, I can't. It could be just the tears of all the opposition fans and pundits. It's Shea Given's tears, I believe Shea Given's tears Are flooding the entire city Shea Given and Peter Schmeichel Together, there's a river of tears Of ex-goalkeeper, ex-Man City Goalkeeper tears as well I forgot Given played for Man City as well, didn't he?

1:44:29Well, indeed They all end up there All these old school goals David Seaman What's going on? I guarantee you I guarantee you David Seaman did not think it was not a foul. David Seaman thought that was a foul. David Seaman thought that on Raya was the right decision. A proper member of the goalkeepers union. The rest of these guys are fucking scabs. That's what they are. Stuart Taylor, he ended up at Man City. He did. He was there for 17 years. Didn't play a single game. It's amazing. Scott Carson, Richard Wright. He was there for five. It's where goalkeepers go to die. 500 years Scott Carson was at Man City.

1:45:19And he's still only 36. You know, it's a crazy thing. Crazy thing. Right. Let's get the podcast out to everybody. Hope you enjoyed this particular episode. If you do like the pod, please do give us a review. We don't ask very often, but just this once. If you'd like to give us a review on iTunes or whatever the fuck it's called, Apple Podcasts or in the podcast app of your choice on Spotify and wherever you get podcasts, please do give us a nice review. We'd really, really appreciate it. For now, thank you as always for being here, for sharing and all the rest. I think essentially I've just run out of words.

1:45:56So we'll leave it there for now, folks. Take it easy and we will catch you on the next one. Bye-bye.

1:46:09Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, senior sports editor from The Guardian. And whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, reporters on the ground with all the big teams, and the legendary Football Weekly podcast, The Guardian. Bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more.