Arsecast Extra Episode 697 - 02.06.2026

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1:20Hello and welcome to another Arsecast Extra. As always, with James from Gunner Blog. James, goodly end of season to you.

1:28Andrew Allen: Yes, goodly end of season, mate. How you doing? How you bearing up? Well, as you might hear, my voice is fucked, I think would be the technical term. It's been through a lot over the last, I guess, four or five days. I have no concept of time anymore. Stuff happened at the weekend, it feels like, years ago or something. I just can't quite get my head around it. But, yeah, it was a great time at Budapest, apart from, you know, the one bit, etc., etc. But I am paying the price now for carousing, I think might be one way of putting it, and also shouting at the referee at the game on Saturday with some gusto, I think we'll say.

2:12So I've done myself a bit of damage overall.

2:15Andrew Allen: Yeah, it's kind of 50 % late nights and boozing and 50 % justified referee abuse. Yes, yes. But I'll get through it. We'll try and find a way to navigate through it. How are you bearing up? Obviously, you've had a ridiculous kind of travel schedule over the last four or five days. Well, I have even less idea what time it is, especially because we're doing this podcast on a Tuesday, an afternoon, your time as well. But kind of needs must with travel schedule. I've been to the States, I've been to Budapest, I've been back to London and now I'm back in the States again. And so in the space of about four or five days, I'm a little bit out of it.

2:57Andrew Allen: But mainly, Andrew, I don't know how we're going to attack this podcast because I feel like there's just so much to talk about. I mean, in the space of 48 hours, I feel like every Arsenal supporter experienced the kind of the full gamut of emotional range. Yeah. I met a guy in the airport on what day is it? yesterday whatever day yesterday was the one before tuesday monday i met this guy in the airport and he was an arsenal fan called dan so hello to you dan if you're listening um and he was talking about you know he's brought his son along for the first time this season a couple of times he's been to the emirates he was at the uh the everton game for example when max downman scored that goal and had that moment and uh i think he's about eight the kid and he said to me something along the lines of, you know, maybe this was the wrong year to take him.

3:55If he thinks every year we're going to win the title, you know, setting expectations too high. And I was sort of thinking, yeah, but we also just lost the Champions League final. So like in the space of 10 days, he got it all. He got the, oh, football is amazing and I love it. And also the football is, it can be really painful. You know, you learn those lessons or you maybe learn those lessons quite early, you know. I remember, I think I've said before, in 79 when we won the FA Cup finals, the first Arsenal game, I remember. And you're sort of going, well, this is great. And then the next year we lost, I don't know if it's a bit too soon to reference it, but we lost the European final.

4:33And we also lost the FA Cup final in close quarters as well. So you kind of get that grounding quite early on. But it's been a lot of everything, right?

4:44Andrew Allen: Yeah, that's a great point. I always sort of flag my formative Arsenal period as sort of the 2002, 2004. I think I was 16 to 18 in that period. And it's when I really, really fell in love with the team and the game. And he started writing about it. And I always say, oh, it's because we won the title, right? It's because we went invincible. But you forget that sandwiched between 2002 and 2004 was a pretty agonising Premier League campaign in 2003, where we absolutely should have won the league and didn't. And then even 2004 itself, for all the magnificence of the Invincibles, that Champions League tie against Chelsea, you know, was as gut-wrenching as pretty much anything we've experienced.

5:30Andrew Allen: So I think that young lad's had quite the education there because that is absolutely being a football fan, isn't it? It's the incredible highs and the crushing lows and everything in between. And we've experienced that in the space of a weekend. But I do think overall, kind of big picture, it's been an incredibly positive few days. And I think the timing of that parade, which I know a lot of people questioned and said, how will that feel? How will that feel if we've lost the Champions League final the night before? Wouldn't it be nice to celebrate the Premier League title kind of independently of that?

6:07Andrew Allen: But I think in reality, it was so perfectly timed and provided this amazing moment of community and communion and a chance to really celebrate and decompress as well after what has been for us as fans, quite a draining, wild, brilliant, draining campaign. No, absolutely. Absolutely. I was looking at the players on the parade and I was sort of thinking like, how are you even doing this? You know, it was the next day, obviously, I was still in Budapest. I stayed in Budapest and was looking at the scenes and they were amazing. And it's sort of like, they made me feel better about what happened on Saturday evening.

6:48just sort of watching the scenes and watching the parade and sort of watching the players as well. I think you can know sometimes when players, like if this, if they'd sort of blown their last chance at winning a Champions League, you know, maybe they'd be more affected by what happened in Budapest. I don't think that is the case. But it sort of added to the surreal nature of maybe the season and what we've all gone through, right? where you're so happy then you think we could get even happier and losing a final and losing a final in the way we did you know it was really really tough to take um you were there wherever people were watching i'm sure their reaction when that penalty went over the bar gabrielle's penalty went over the bar was the same where it feels like your fucking arse is falling out right your stomach flips and you're like you just sort of have this immediate pain in your in your heart and then the next day you're watching these celebrations and you're sort of infused with a with a positivity that that helps soothe the burn of of Saturday night and I don't really have any better way of putting it than that you know it it went a long way to to making us all feel better yeah and listen

8:09Andrew Allen: if we think we need a break how must those players feel how must they how much must they have wanted to cut loose and enjoy that moment that they've waited for for so long and really, really savour it. And I found it really instructive, the kind of difference in Mikel Arteta's demeanour. You know, on Saturday night after the game, he spoke about the pain he was suffering. There was almost an anger in him in his press conference talking about, you know, what he felt in terms of a miscarriage of justice, potentially with the penalty and how he felt Arsenal fell short, where they need to improve, how they need to raise the level, raise the standards.

8:48And then you see him on top of the bus a matter of hours later

8:52Andrew Allen: on Sunday morning in shade celebrating, dancing around. I think there was probably a concerted decision that they were going to really enjoy this moment for all that it was worth. And the fans certainly supported that and came with them in that. So really beautiful scenes on Sunday around his LinkedIn. That is the right decision, though, right? Because, you know, they've had their celebrations, but they haven't really been able to do it with the fans, you know, in the way that you would like. There was only, well, 3 ,000, probably 300 ,000 people at Selhurst Park when it comes right down to the storytelling aspect of it, right?

9:32But, you know, it's different from doing it at home. Also, many of these players are now going to go away to a World Cup. You talk about the timing of the parade. This was the last opportunity for them to be together as a group, really. And I'm sure that was not a happy plane ride home from Budapest on whatever day it was. Sunday? Did they go like early hours of Sunday morning? Yeah, you know, it can't have been a happy plane because these are professionals. and they have been in the biggest European game that you can possibly be in and they lost. But they, I think, have to recognize, as I keep saying to people when I've talked about this game and talked about what it means or how it felt about after losing, obviously it's painful.

10:19It really is. You can't ignore that. But I think what I've said is that we won the thing I really, really wanted us to win this season. And that was the Premier League. That was the one that I really, really wanted us to win. I know there are some people who go, well, we've never won the Champions League. That's what you should really want. I've just always believed that for the benefit of the team and this manager and the project, for want of a better word, we had to get that one. We had to win it. Because I honestly think there's a big discussion that thankfully we don't have to have, that if you don't win it this season, where do you go?

11:02Where do you go from that point if you finish second four times in a row? I think we're not quite at a tipping point, but we're at a point where, you know, I'm sure a lot of people would have been thinking like, where do we go from here? And I'm talking about Mikel Arteta himself. I'm talking about maybe some of the players. I'm talking about maybe some of the executives. You know, I think that is a perfectly normal way to think about it if you don't win the Premier League. So the fact that we won the Premier League has, for me anyway, made the pain of this defeat a lot less or maybe just easier to cope with.

11:40Yeah.

11:40Andrew Allen: And in terms of where do we go from here? I mean, maybe it's a bit early for this sort of discussion, but I do think it provides a kind of brilliant clarity as well. You know, it's very clear that we did the job in the Premier League and we've made tremendous progress in Europe. But there is still a level above. There is still a bit further to go. And I actually think, you know, in some ways that will serve us. Right. We've got very clear targets and objectives ahead of next season as well. As magnificent as it would have been for us to win it all. I think that would have raised the question, too, of kind of where do we go from here and what does this mean for the future of this project?

12:19Andrew Allen: Where are we in the life cycle of it? Whereas now I feel like with the League One under our belt, with that title in the bank, we have this amazing platform to go on and do more. And the Champions League will absolutely, I think, become the centre of that ambition in some respects. And, you know, I think as a supporter, that's a really exciting place to be. Did I feel like that at 10pm on Saturday night? No. Probably not. But one of the advantages of having a couple of days to kind of digest it is that, you know, we've had that parade. We've had that time to get our heads around and look at the bigger picture and celebrate the season in its entirety, really.

13:02Andrew Allen: I mean, I suppose, Andrew, I don't know what you think, but I think we should probably attack it kind of chronologically. So I was going to ask you about your couple of days in Budapest prior to the game. How was that for you? Because I only landed on the morning of the match itself. So I was quite envious of those who had time to kind of soak up and enjoy the atmosphere. Yeah, I got there on Thursday morning. And I have to say, it's a beautiful place. It really is. I was staying in essentially like the party element or the party street of Budapest. it was filled with sort of bars and late night bars and clubs that are for for men only um lots of people offering me cocaine very kindly you know very considerate um one guy was like you want some cocaine i was like no thanks he was like why not i was like well i'm a bit old it's the chapitre final yeah i was like i'm a bit old he's going no you're never too old for drugs So I was like, I fucking am.

14:09And then he said to me, he just sort of turned and looked at me and went, hey, do you think I don't have good stuff? And I was like, hey, I'm sure your stuff is great, dude. You're going around the city on a scooter trying to sell packets of dust to random tourists. You're clearly a kingpin. Yes, absolutely. The providence of your cocaine, I'm sure, is first class. So I had to refuse. But, you know, I had a great time in the city. I think it's a place I would absolutely go back to. I thought the people were great. The bars and the food and the hospitality was brilliant. We ended up doing, well, I say we.

14:49There was karaoke done in front of me by a small American man, who I'm sure you know, which was very, very funny. But it was a great buzz. Like the atmosphere around town was fantastic, I have to say. And there were sort of some pre-game concerns, you know, about the way the PSG fans, they can be a bit burny, it seems. They like to set shit on fire. So there was a little bit of trepidation around that, because certainly some of the advice...

15:19Andrew Allen: Arsenal versus the arsonists. Yeah. But, you know, I will say the number of Arsenal fans to PSG fans was like 5 to 1, 6 to 1. I was going to say, I'm slightly surprised you saw any because everything I heard from people who were in Budapest, certainly on the days prior to the game, was that it felt like it was all Arsenal. Yeah, it was for sure. And I think the PSG fans tended to arrive. Maybe they arrived a bit later. I don't know. It's a bit of a generalisation. You saw them around on the day of the game and certainly after the game, there were more shirts around. But, you know, I really think as well, before we get into the nuts and bolts of it all, the way Arsenal fans represented the club over the course of this weekend in Budapest is worth mentioning.

16:04Because they were amazing, really. Everywhere you went, the spirits are good. Like everybody was just sort of in that place because we'd had that sort of, what, 10 days of celebration since winning the league. Everybody's in great form. So the mood was amazing. The mood was great. The weather was good. It was just a fun time, I have to say. Yeah, really, really fun and a place I'd definitely go back to. So thank you to all the residents of Budapest who made my experience and I'm sure the experience of a lot of Arsenal fans really memorable.

16:40Andrew Allen: Yeah, yeah, it is a fantastic city and everyone I spoke to has a great few days. You know, take the game out of it. I think people just had a brilliant weekend. And the celebratory mood we've seen in North London over the past couple of weeks was picked up and ported to Budapest, it seemed to me, on Thursday, Friday and the build up to the game as well. Good atmosphere. We've seen some good videos from down in the fan parks as well on match day and people marching up to the ground led by Gunnasaurus. No better dinosaur. Stirring image. No better dinosaur to lead the people to the ground as well.

17:18It's a great stadium, I have to say. Also, I really liked the stadium, the sort of wide open concourses. You know, the way, let's say, at halftime at the Emirates, it can get a bit cramped. You know, if you need to use the facilities, it can be a bit tricky to get in and out of the bathrooms. No such thing in this one. The weather, of course, played a huge part. I mean, when did you...

17:40Andrew Allen: Yeah, Pushkast Arena. I've got to say, on the subject of Pushkast, I saw a guy at the airport when I was leaving Budapest with his son, and his son wanted a magnet. And they were like, what magnet do you want? And the little boy goes, I want a push gas one. There was a little fridge magnet with push gas's face on it. Right. And then the son asked the dad, what position did he play, dad? And the dad clearly had absolutely no idea, just went, anyway, mate, he was that good. And I thought, he styled that out beautifully because he had absolutely no clue. But yeah, it is a lovely stadium. And it was great pre-game as well.

18:24Andrew Allen: You know, the Arsenal fans were in there early and was filling up. North London Forever was quite a long time before kickoff. Were you in the ground by then? Yeah, I was in the ground quite early, but I'm not sure. I mean, I must have heard it, but I don't sort of remember it. There's a lot of that. So afternoon is a bit of a blur, you know? Fair. I was trying to not listen to The Killers, which was impossible. I think the Arsenal fans seemed to really enjoy The Killers. They did, yeah. Much more than the PSG fans did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, you know, Mr. Brightside is one of those songs. But I don't really remember North London forever, to be honest.

19:08I could have been out in the concourse doing something. I don't know

19:13Andrew Allen: Have I told you my Mr. Brightside story about when I DJ'd a wedding and the bride explicitly said you can play anything you want but don't play Mr. Brightside So you opened a set I just kept playing the intro to Mr. Brightside and she would get angry and look at me and then I'd change it to something else Good stuff Nothing like annoying a bride on her wedding day is there? Yeah, I think that's what they wanted No, I mean it was, it was great the atmosphere was absolutely brilliant and everyone was sort of buzzing around and ready for the game. And I have to say, you know, I think it was obviously because we won the league and because of how much I wanted that.

19:52The pre-game, I was not in the slightest bit nervous at all.

19:59Andrew Allen: Oh, that's interesting. At all. Until we scored. And then it was like a complete 180. complete, I was like, well, I mean, blow it up, ref. Blow it up. You know, I know there's 84 minutes to go, but fuck, blow it up. I mean, it's weird. It was just like a complete flip where I was just relaxed. I was a bit kind of case or ass, if we win it, you know, it'd be great. If we don't win it, we still won the Premier League. But the minute that Kai Havertz, I can't remember a celebration quite like that either, you know, in a ground. I know your position was a little bit, But different, obviously, in the media section, press box.

20:44Andrew Allen: Well, yes and no, Andrew. I had Amy Lawrence on one side and Nick Callow on the other. So I was in a little Arsenal section within the press box, it's fair to say. Okay, so you had your moment. But we didn't know it was in. I don't know about you, but from our angle, it looked – I initially, for a split second, thought it'd hit the side netting. So there was a little delay. So you were over in the other corner, weren't you? Yeah. I was on the tunnel side. So, yeah, we could see it went in. I just grabbed whoever was behind me, and I think I just grabbed him and held on to him for about 30 seconds without really moving.

21:22Yeah, it was a huge, huge moment. Because then we had something in our hands almost, something tangible, something to lose, I guess. Which, you know, you still do a kickoff, a nil-nil. You still have that. But to score, that was a really good goal. To score that goal that early in the game, you're like, oh, God. I was like, this is a manifestation of everything we've seen this season where we've had to hang on in tight games. And I told people all week we were going to win 1-0. And you can't win 1-0 without scoring. So it was there, but yeah.

22:02Andrew Allen: That's a great point you make there about it. feeling almost like a microcosm of the season in that we had this lead and we basically had to cling on to it. And we've never, you know, in no game have we had to cling on and dig in quite like we did in this one. So yes, I can see that parallel. As well, there was the kind of, you know, Kai Havertz, I just didn't necessarily, I was surprised that he had that finish in him. I mean, it was a Lukas Podolsky finish, really, wasn't it? The way he just absolutely put his foot through it, leathered it into the roof of the net. It seemed like even their keeper was caught out by it.

22:41Andrew Allen: And yeah, unbelievable start. Justification for his selection as well. Before we go on, was there anything in the team selection that surprised you? I think Capier played, didn't he? Odegaard played as well and Havertz up top. I wasn't surprised about Havertz because I think we always said that if it came to a game like this and everyone was fit, Havertz would be Arteta's choice as striker. Maybe a little surprised about Myles, but not because I didn't think he could do a good job. I did wonder if he might just go with Eze. Just to have that extra bit of technical quality in the midfield. Zubimendi as well was another option.

23:20I was a little surprised about Incapié over Calafiore, though. I just felt like... Was that Mikel's little concession there?

23:33Andrew Allen: to PSG's quality? Do you think that was his recognition of, this is a game where defending is going to be a big, big part of it for us? Yeah, maybe so. Maybe so. I just wondered if Calafiore might have just been the better option. I think, you know, in Capier obviously put his body on the line because he was absolutely wrecked by the end of it and we juiced all our subs so he couldn't come off. And I kind of understand it. I just sort of felt with Muscara on the other side that maybe you just need to find that little bit of slightly different balance just to have Calafuri there. I think if it's Ben White or Jurian Timber playing at right back, I understand Calafuri a bit more.

24:17Whereas with Christian Muscara, you're probably looking for that just a little bit of maverick quality that Calafuri gives you on the left-hand side. But look, I'm sure it's a decision he thought about long and hard and probably agonized over a bit.

24:31Andrew Allen: Yeah, I feel for Calafiore because am I right in saying he didn't get on? And, you know, he's probably the most, one of the more prominent players to not feature. There was a moment in extra time where I think Hinn-Capier was down receiving treatment. Obviously, he was exhausted by that point. And I did catch Calafiore on the sidelines, sort of throw his arms up a bit, exasperated, saying, I was right here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's got an amazing attitude, Calafiori. He's always the first to praise in Capier or Miles or whoever else is playing. And I think he's very supportive and very much a team player.

25:09Andrew Allen: But from an individual perspective, I'm sure he was disappointed to me, Sam. I mean, I'm finding it sort of hard to think about the incidents in the game because I haven't watched it back because I don't know if I can watch it back. Is it going to be a case of Paris 06 where you should put it in a drawer for 20 years? Kind of. And it's still in that fucking drawer, by the way, and it's not coming out. I actually watched the highlights of Paris 06 in the build up to this final. And I think that's the first time I've ever done it. So, yeah, I think it's roughly a sort of 20 year incubation period.

25:52Andrew Allen: So pop back to the pod in 2046 and we will break down this final blow by blow. I mean, what did it feel like to you? Because, you know, obviously I recognise the fact that in terms of the perception of Arsenal's game plan, right? It was PSG had a lot of possession and we defended well, I think. I also think as well, the fact that we scored earlier. Like I've been trying to block out as much external noise and analysis because the bits I've seen people reacting to appear to have been really fucking annoying. So I don't want to be annoyed. I want to kind of keep living in this happy moment that we're all enjoying.

26:38So from what I understand, it's that Arsenal were or set out to be just completely defensively stubborn and to hang on to a one goal lead. but obviously scoring after six minutes, it does slightly change the way you're going to play anyway, doesn't it? You know, if it's nil-nil at halftime, you still have to try and find a way to score a goal. I feel like it might've been a more even game, which is kind of a stupid thing to say, but if we hadn't scored, I'm not sure it would have ended up with like PSG with what, 75 % possession. I just don't think that's the way we wanted necessarily to play the game, but because we had the goal, and we had something to lose, it was like, well, we're quite good at this.

27:25So why don't we just, you know, let them have 500 passes in midfield and keep them at bay, you know, try and hold them at arm's length.

27:36Andrew Allen: Yeah, it's a bit of a football cliche, isn't it? The idea that you can score too early. But I do think this is one of those games that you might file under that heading because, I mean, before the game, I was saying first goal's massive, first goal's so important in this one. And PSG's nightmare really would have been for Arsenal to get it because we are a side who can defend and can dig in and make life very difficult. But the fact it came so early, what was it, five minutes on the clock, something like that, it meant that the pattern of play, I think became very entrenched very quickly. And I think that made it difficult for us.

28:23Andrew Allen: I mean, you know, it just sort of set the tone really. And I think psychologically in the minds of the players, the fact that they had a lead to protect and something to hold on to, I do think that probably informed some of the decisions they made in the moment on the field. and who knows maybe PSG are just that good that it would have been like this anyway maybe they would have had us under the cosh whatever happened and I think there's definitely a chance of that because I really do think they're an excellent side and I think in terms of the way they keep the ball, move the ball even the way that they press to regain the ball I think they are better than us to be honest with you so maybe that was always going to be the case But it did feel like that early goal really, really did sort of mean that we set out our stall in that fashion.

29:20Andrew Allen: And yeah, that made it hard work. I mean, you know, before the game, I was chatting to people and there was so much sort of anticipation about our set pieces, for example. You know, their keeper, maybe not the most convincing under the high ball, under the cross. But actually, something that I think is often overlooked in the sort of criticism of Arsenal score from corners and, you know, is that you've got to win those corners. You've got to have the territory. You've got to have the possession. You've got to have the threat to win those set pieces, free kicks around the box, corners. And we didn't really do that in any concerted way.

29:56So even that kind of dead ball threat was pretty minimal. Yes. Yeah. I mean, there were a few I can remember. There was a Declan Rice free kick, I think. The corner we got right at the end. Yeah, which was our first of the game, I believe. 120th minute or whatever it was, was right in front of us.

30:19Andrew Allen: Oh, sorry. I thought you meant the one in 45 minutes. No, no, no. The one that never got taken. Do you remember that one? I do remember that one. People were going mad about that. I don't know. We were talking to a friend of ours, Nigel, who was out there at the weekend about that and he's going, well, listen, if the time is up, the time is up, the ref can blow his whistle. He doesn't have to let you take the corner. Do you think the ref... Listen, I know you... I'm loathe to ask you this because I worry you'll do further damage to your voice. But do you think the ref came into this game with preconceptions about Arsenal?

30:53Andrew Allen: Like, do you think our reputation informed his officiating in any way? I mean with examples like that, like the booking for mascara for time wasting which i thought seemed to happen that was really harsh i thought quite quickly and quite harshly not letting us take that corner it really felt like he came into the game to me at least with the directive of don't let them do their sure dark arts yeah maybe maybe um what sort of bothered me more about the ref you know i thought the mascara booking was bullshit by the way um the corner thing i can live with the corner thing right because time is up it's gone over the six minutes i don't even know where he got six minutes from in the first place to be honest and we do take our time that is we do take our time there's no question about it so you know maybe one of the lessons that we can learn from this game is manage our time a little bit better in in moments like that what what drove me mad about the referee was that i felt like every 50-50 ended up being a free kick against us and PSG were allowed to play on.

32:04And that happened with such frequency that at one point I just screamed out, kill him. And the lady in front of me got a little bit upset with me and I did apologize and I apologize again. But it was just so annoying because it was... Kill him!

32:26Andrew Allen: Who are you shouting it to, Andrew? Who was that order being issued to? Anyone! Just kill him! But that's where I was. I was driven to that point by the decision. To murder? Well, at least to solicit murder. Or to encourage it. Who will rid me of this troublesome referee? Anyone. of you 63 ,000 people in this stadium could do the job, please. But I was really frustrated by him because there was one, I think in particular, I think it was after Timber came on and he won the ball and the PSG player just sort of went down. He immediately blew. But every time the ball came near Kai Havertz and they clattered him and took the ball, we didn't get those free kicks.

33:12We didn't get a kickoff. And listen, that's not why we didn't win the game per se, But I did certainly find the refereeing frustrating on the day.

33:23Andrew Allen: Yeah, I think you're right. Elliot put out a thing on, I think on Twitter and Blue Sky, a little compilation of sort of those 50-50 decisions. I haven't seen that. That didn't go our way. And his point was kind of that he didn't necessarily feel there was one clear aberration, but more a kind of cumulative mass of decisions that interrupted our flow. And I do feel that the game was refereed through the prism of certain preconceptions about this team. I do think that there was probably a conversation beforehand about, and, you know, who knows, maybe PSG applied some pressure. I think Enrique's been pretty, and the PSG players have been quite open about what they think of some of Arsenal's antics.

34:11Andrew Allen: So, yeah, I do think that that kind of hung in the air around officiating. You mentioned that Mosquera booking. How big a moment was that? I mean, obviously, you know, the big moment at the second half is the concession of the penalty. But was there any thought in your mind that he could have come off before that? I actually thought he did very well, really, until that point. Yes, I think he did. I think he was having a good game.

34:41I mean, Timber looked good when he came on. He looked like he could run and compete. So he ended up playing, what, however many minutes?

34:52Andrew Allen: An hour, basically. An hour, yeah. He came on almost immediately after the penalty. And it was around the half hour mark. I think it was 63 minutes, something like that. Which, to be honest, may well have just been pre-planned. That might have been the moment. But I do wonder if Mikel Arteta, after the game, was like, if it had been a minute or two before, might it have kept PSG at bay? I don't know. I mean, there's no recriminations for me about the actual penalty award at all. No, I mean, it is a penalty. And listen, it happens in football. It's a learning moment for Christian Mascara. I think in that case, he's just got to let him go, by the way.

35:35Andrew Allen: Yeah, no, I agree. I think he's beaten, isn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he's a little lucky not to be sent off, to be honest. Possibly. Possibly. It's one of those where you've definitely seen second yellow cards given. Yeah. To me, where I am with the penalty is I firmly believe, and of course it can't ever be proved and, you know, football is weird, but I just firmly believe if we had not conceded that penalty, they wouldn't have scored. I just, you know, so that's like the big sliding doors moment of the game, obviously, because it gets them back in it. You're looking for David Raya to, you know, to make a save.

36:18But obviously, Usman Dembele just played six or seven minutes this season and is quite fresh. Stepped up and thumped it home. I know.

36:27Andrew Allen: Well, I thought he might be rusty, frankly, given how little he's played. But yeah, puts it away. And listen, to give PSG their due, what does the penalty come from? For me, it's not a sort of huge defensive error or anything like it. It's a good bit of interplay around the edge of the penalty box where they just show a flash of quality to turn it around the corner. And we're beaten. They're in behind. And I think Moscaira panics a little bit. I've got great sympathy with him. I think he's been brilliant this season. I think he's been such a revelation, not just as a centre-half, but filling in at full-back as well.

37:01And he put an Instagram post out, which was a little bit, not gloomy, but down, you know, saying this is not how I wanted this occasion to end.

37:11Andrew Allen: It's hard, I think, to suffer that, to concede a vital penalty and then immediately be taken off. It must feel crap. There's no way around that. But I hope he, I hope the parade sort of lifted his spirits as much as it seemed to everybody else, because I think he's been a fantastic signing. And I don't really think in that first hour of the game we could have asked for much more from him. No, because, you know, as people have pointed out, he's up against Kvara Czkelia, who's one of the best players in the world, who really didn't do a great deal, apart from obviously win the penalty. But it wasn't like he was running rings around him.

37:49It's not like, was it Jefferson Montero versus Callum Chambers? No, not quite.

37:55Andrew Allen: It wasn't like that at all. No, I thought he did really well. And I thought even on the ball, he was pretty solid. So, yeah, yeah, just like I say, a moment of quality from them, a moment of switching off from us. And it's 1-1. And I feared the worst at that point, to be honest with you. I sort of feared that would be a big momentum shift. But I actually thought the changes Mikel made. And again, maybe the shift in the game state, maybe the shift in the scoreline, Whatever it was helped us. And I think we actually improved a bit after that point. Yeah, well, Timur came on for Mosquera. And I think Jokeres came on for Odegaard.

38:40I mean, listen, there's all kinds of discussions we can go into in a game like this. Maybe we'll leave it to the very end. But, you know, we had three of our front four who didn't really do a lot on the day. you know and again could be part of the game state thing but you know in a big game you need somebody to to step up or more than one person to step up in the way that Kai Havertz did quite

39:10Andrew Allen: and you know Martin Odegaard taken off after about an hour but Kai Saka wasn't too far behind was he I think it was 83 minutes yeah this is where I'm slightly curious about what you think about the way the changes were implemented like it was Jokeres for Odegaard which meant Havertz went back to midfield was there a part of you that thought it could have been different like could have been Eze for Odegaard and then of course on 83 minutes then he makes two more changes you've got Matuweke on for Saka, Martinelli on for Trossard again I don't think Trossard or Saka were really particularly good but you end up then with that front three that has been, if I can say, a point of contention or certainly a point of discussion over the course of the season.

40:04Maybe it's more of a thing for us as fans than it is for Mikel Arteta. But I think we've also seen that the balance of it isn't particularly great. And in a game where you're not necessarily getting people on the ball or holding possession up in the opposition half, you've got kind of a, like Havertz in midfield is a different operator to Odegaard, right? When Odegaard is playing really well or even when Eze is playing really well, they're on the ball and they're making lots of passes and they're ping, ping, ping, ping, ping. So then you have Havertz doing that. You've got Martinelli, Matueke and Jokeres who are guys who like to run in behind.

40:43How are you keeping the ball anywhere near the opposition box to win the corners that you need to win to arsenal your way to the Champions League final. You know, I did think, you know, Cole, light of day, and he's got more information about these players than we do and who's fit and who's properly fit and what they're capable of in a game like this. But I did wonder about one or two of those subs.

41:05Andrew Allen: Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean, the conversations we've had about that front three, it is kind of extraordinary that we finished the season in the Champions League final with that front three on the pitch. I mean, evidently, Mikel Arteta feels differently to it, about it than many, many supporters. I thought as I would start, you know, I really did think that he has been such a big part of what we've done over the last few weeks that I thought he would play from the beginning in this game. And when he didn't come on for Odegaard, that did raise eyebrows for me. I wonder if there was a concern about him off the ball, a little bit of a reluctance maybe on Arteta's part to use him too early in the game.

41:53Andrew Allen: But yeah, I did think that was a little odd. You know, the Kai midfield thing, I'm not sure that was ever going to give us necessarily the kind of continuity we were looking for in that part of the pitch. That was kind of my overriding feeling about the game, actually. On the night, I was very invested in the defensive effort. And we should say, by the way, individually, there were some brilliant defensive performances. You know, maybe chiefly Gabriel, who in the first half made three outstanding challenges inside his own penalty area. Saliba, I thought was very good. David Ryer, who in the second half made that superb intervention to deny Bradley Barkler when he went through on goal.

42:33Andrew Allen: Just timed it beautifully. You know, he took the memo from Jens Lehmann about don't get sent off. Don't get sent off, yeah. But, you know, so I was very proud of that and invested in that. and understood it. But sort of by the time Sunday morning rolled around, I did look at the disparity in possession and kind of technical quality between the two teams and think, A, I think there's a gap there. But B, I don't really believe we did ourselves justice in that respect. I'm not sure we performed to our potential on the ball. I agree with that a lot, a lot. But I think I sort of did a small little thing with a very croaky voice on Sunday evening for our Patreon members.

43:25And what I think maybe is Mikel Arteta's greatest superpower. You know, he's obviously a brilliant tactician and a brilliant coach. And he squeezes the maximum out of most of his players, particularly from a defensive point of view. I don't think there's a better organized, better disciplined defensive team than Arsenal in the world. But what I think his superpower is, is looking at what didn't quite work and then fixing it, trying to go better again. And you can look at the progression in the Champions League from quarterfinal to semifinal to final. And if it's linear, we're all going to be having a great time in Madrid next year.

44:04But I think you've got to look at this game. if you're going to look at, you know, where Arsenal need to improve, it is providing more threat. And I don't just mean like in your forward line, I mean from maybe further behind your forward line as well, where you need players who've got that sort of confidence on the ball, the ability to get on the ball, stay on the ball, ping a few passes around, change the dynamic of the game. Because when I went to 1-1 like you, I was like, oh, fuck. it's kind of hard to see a scoring like again but you never know but I think what you're looking at is the ability of your team to sort of step it up and go again and maybe raise the level and I don't think we raised the level after they scored but obviously I have to look at the stats and see what possession was like pre and post the goal that they eventually scored but But I think that's where a lot of what we're going to do this summer will be based around.

45:08That, you know, there is a level that someone like PSG, and we all kind of know the reasons why, that doesn't mean it isn't something we have to compete with, though. If you want to win this Champions League, you're probably going to have to beat PSG either along the way or in the final again because of the way that club is set up to operate in this competition. So there's very legitimate discussions to be had about what a noxious, corrupt organization it is. But at the same time, the reality is they are somebody you're going to have to compete with. And I think they showed us something in the way that they played the game that we have to try and get better at.

45:46Andrew Allen: Yeah, and they have an exceptional coach, I think, in Luis Enrique. I think he makes that team more than the sum of its parts. You know, PSG have had models previously which have been very star-laden, And, you know, they had the kind of Mbappe, Neymar, Messi era. And this is a substantially better team with players whose careers have been, until now, perhaps less celebrated. So, yeah, there's a lot we can learn from them. And I think you're right. Arteta's kind of diagnostic acumen is really one of his strengths. and even in the aftermath of the game, in his post-match press conference, he was already on it, right?

46:32Andrew Allen: Wasn't he saying, PSG, the best team in the world. You look at the individual action they have. He was already looking at that kind of ingenuity, difference makers in possession in the final third and sort of asking for more and demanding more and saying, we need to be ambitious and we need to improve, which is classic Mikel really. So what was sort of full-time and the extra time like from your experience? Because obviously we're all on tenterhooks. You're hoping that Arsenal can score a goal. I was sort of out in the concourse at full-time, sort of standing with my hands on my head and just randomly hugging anyone who would hug me back because I felt like I needed it and needed to dish it out a little bit as well.

47:22and the same at halftime and extra time where I felt extraordinarily tense. I really did. I felt like, I don't know, I just wanted it so badly at that point, you know, for very obvious reasons. But, you know, the idea that you might lose it late, you know, and we've been there before in 2006, you know, losing it late is hard. Or the idea that you might lose it on a penalty shootout, I don't know. Yeah, it was tough going, I have to say. I didn't really enjoy that 30 minutes until we got to the penalty shootout. I didn't enjoy the penalty shootout either, I should say.

48:05Andrew Allen: Yeah, I mean, I don't think there was any way you could enjoy it, really, because of the tension and because of the stakes. I think Arteta clearly, you know, whatever we may think of kind of the individual changes or the tactics behind it, he clearly lent into his squad and trying to inject freshness onto the field. There was one point, I think, where we had made six changes to Paris Saint-Germain's two. Now, admittedly, none of their players have played more than about a dozen league games, which may have been a factor in that. But I think Mikel was looking to the guys on the bench to kind of maybe make a difference.

48:41Andrew Allen: I think if anybody threatened to do that, it was Nani Maduweke. I thought he came on and he gave the ball away two or three times in his first couple of minutes on the pitch. And I thought, oh God, what are we in for here? But I did feel that after that, maybe because he has that kind of individualistic streak that even when our kind of attacking game is not particularly coherent, you know, he's always going to run at his man. He's always going to try and make things happen. I did think he looked like a guy who might be a difference maker for us on the night and obviously was involved in the big incident, really, of that final part of the game with the possible penalty.

49:27Andrew Allen: What was your real-time assessment of that? Real-time, the way he went down, I thought it was a penalty. Real-time. Same, yeah. The night of the game, I was watching replays and I was like, he's sort of got his arm. There's a little bit of six of one, half a dozen of the other, kind of. The more I watch it, though, the more I think if the referee gives that, there's no way it gets overturned. I totally agree with that and I don't know that that ref would give that penalty to us based on the way he refereed the game so I think it's more of a penalty than I thought it was in the first place and certainly after the game the more I look at it the more I I don't think it's like we have been absolutely 100 % robbed or anything like that I just think that it's one of those that if the ref gives the penalty, nobody's really going to argue against it.

50:30Andrew Allen: Yeah. When people have asked me, is it a penalty or was it a penalty? I don't really feel able to definitively say yes or no, but I can say it could have been. And I think it is one of those where on-field decision, on-field discretion would have decided it. I don't think it would have been overturned in either direction. I think probably what kills it for us, certainly on the VAR review, is that locked arm that Nonny's got. I imagine they're looking at that and thinking, well, he's kind of dragging the guy down with him. But I do feel that Nonny beats Mendes there. He's beyond him. And Mendes is coming back at him rather clumsily.

51:17Andrew Allen: Not quite as clumsily as Mosquera. but it's a very, very dangerous challenge. I mean, I would say, again, as I say, Muscara, really, Mendes has just got to let him go there. But he gets away with it. It's an incredibly... Yeah, it's a close one. It's a close one. I think in my heart of hearts, I feel it probably would have been a bit soft. I feel that Nonny probably is looking for it and makes the most of it. but it absolutely could have been given. And look, it's not too dissimilar, is it, from the one that we got in Leverkusen as well in a similar situation with Nonny? I can't remember that, but I'll take your word for it.

52:04Did we get that or did we not get that? I don't know. I can't remember. I don't know. I don't know. But that was what? Just around half-time and extra time, right? Yeah, around that.

52:14Andrew Allen: around that. It felt to me as well a bit like PSG. We did get the one in Leverkusen, by the way. 88th minute, yeah. It felt to me a little bit like we got stretched a couple of times as well, where they had some breaks down their left. But I can't remember the timings of those. And then obviously it goes to penalties. and Arsenal have maybe three of their best penalty takers off the pitch. Yeah, were you having the discussion in the stands of who's your five? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think so, yeah. Because I felt like it was quite easy to get to three. I mean, I think everyone would have had Jokeres.

53:06Andrew Allen: Everyone would have had Eze. Everyone would have had Rice. I kind of think Martinelli was always going to take one. He's taken them before. He has. He was somebody I thought would take one. And I genuinely thought Nani Maruake would take one. Yeah. I mean, he's a guy who started a fight to take a penalty for Chelsea at one point, wasn't he? You know? That is true, yeah. And wasn't there an incident with us earlier this season where he sort of made for the ball to pick up the ball? and he was naming the hat for a penalty. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there was. Again, I don't remember the details. So they were sort of the five that I had thought would take them.

53:49I didn't know what order.

53:53Andrew Allen: Jokeres up first makes sense, right? I think you want to score that first penalty. And, you know, if anyone was going to do it, it was going to be him. His record is outstanding. He's a brilliant penalty taker. What did you feel about the location of the penalty shootout? Do you think it made a difference? Well, we kind of lost the toss on both counts, really, because... Why are they having two tosses? Why should you either pick the end or you go first? I feel like that's the way it used to be. I think both are decided by a coin flip now. Yeah, weighted fucking coin, probably. Yeah, so that was, I thought, rather cruel.

54:38Andrew Allen: Does it make a difference? I don't know. I mean, not to Jocherez, Rice and Martinelli, who took great penalties. Yeah. Maybe it did matter a little to Eze and Gabriel. I mean, how did you feel about penalties going in? Were you confident? I would say hopeful more than confident. With some of them, I was definitely confident. With Jacareza, I was confident. With Rice, I was confident. Martinelli, I think I was more confident than a few others. And obviously then there was the Eza one. Eza was second, right? He took our second penalty and put it wide. And that was like, what the fuck? How do you do that?

55:22You know, I'm not a fan of the stuttery run-up, I have to say. But I think you also have to recognize that there is more than one way to take a penalty. We all like the run up and twat it as hard as you can into the top corner penalty. That gives us like comfort. But, you know, you're talking about what makes these individuals feel comfortable. What is their own process? You know, what gives them confidence when they go to take a penalty? We know what it is with Yaccaraz. Run up, thump it. That's what he does. He does it really well. Other players, you know, they don't feel that and don't take penalties that way, you know.

56:06But I, yeah, when it went wide, it was like a, like what the fuck?

56:14Andrew Allen: How? Yeah, I mean, I know, I know. And I think he's got a bit of previous with it as well. He's missed a couple for Palace. Right. With the Stutter up. It was pointed out to me by a Palace fan on the night. And yeah, when you strike the ball as beautifully as he does, just back yourself. Do you know what I mean? Just put your foot through. I know maybe I'm being simplistic. And you've got to remember, they trained and prepared this. And presumably, as I was putting them away all week at London Colour, there's tremendous confidence in this style of taking penalties. I think the keeper foxes him basically by not moving.

56:59Andrew Allen: He's waiting for the keeper to come here and he just doesn't. He doesn't dive one way or the other. And that makes us think, I've really got to put it in the corner and he just overdoes it. But listen, we all love him and nothing changes that. But there's no getting away from it. Bad penalty. Bad penalty, no question. But I also felt that when we saved the next one, And when David Reyes saved the next one, I really thought that was going to be a moment for us. Great save. Great save. But obviously then PSG continued to score. And then it's Big Gabby for the fifth one. There was a lot of discussion about this one.

57:39There was a lot of discussion about this. I mean... I think if a player, regardless of what position he's in, is confident, is willing to take responsibility, and wants that penalty, I'm okay with it. I can see the argument as to like, well, why didn't Matawake take one? He's a forward player, he should be able to do it. I also think as well, professional footballer, he should be able to score a penalty. It doesn't matter if you're a centre half or if you're a central midfielder or if you're a centre forward. I think, you know, you've, I think he backs himself to take it. I think he's confident.

58:24He wants it. He wants to take that responsibility. We know what a leader he is. He wants to score that penalty. So I've got no real issue with it in that sense. I think it's probably a bigger discussion if you've got Kai Havertz on the pitch or Bakayo Saka on the pitch or Martin Odegaard on the pitch or Leandro Truss aren't on the pitch and Gabrielle steps up to take the fifth penalty. Then I'm thinking, no, there's something not right about this. But given who else there was, like who are the other candidates, really? Timber. Zubimendi, maybe? Zubimendi, Matueke. But if Big Gabby says, yes, boss, I'll do it.

59:05I'll take it for you.

59:06Andrew Allen: Yeah. He's had a brilliant game. Do you know what I mean? Yes. What you've also got to remember about the person who says, I'll take fifth penalty, which we understand is what Gabby said. He was happy to do it. I have heard that Nonny was down to be sixth. Obviously, sadly, it didn't get that far. And I have to say, given how erotic... Erotic? Erotic. Nonny Maduweke's erotic penalties. Erotic penalties. The way he stroked the ball into the net. No, given how erratic Nonny can sometimes be, I don't know how good I would have felt about him being on number five either, to be honest with you. I completely agree with that.

59:47Like, you know, it was a bit odd to see Gabriel, but I can't say if Nani Maduweke had taken that ball and stepped up, I was 100 % confident he would have, you know, scored it.

59:56Andrew Allen: And the other thing about saying you'll take the fifth penalty is there's also a very real chance in that situation you can be the hero, right? You can be the match winner. And we know Gabriel likes a goal and he loves it. And I think he would have relished and been excited about that as much as anything. I think he's pretty fearless, to be honest, on the pitch. And it's a credit to him that he took that responsibility on. As he was running up, I turned to the person next to me and just said, he's got to put his foot through this. And then as he struck it, I was like, not that much. Fucking hell, James.

1:00:38You must have heard you. Listen, I kind of know what he was going for. Yeah. But that was a... There's a roof in it. Yeah, that was a crushing moment, wasn't it? It really was. You know, for him in particular, because of what a hero he's been, not just this season, but previous seasons and the way he plays and the connection he has with the club and the fans, you know, it felt... You know, losing a penalty shootout is always cruel. It felt especially cruel for Gabriel to be the guy to put it over the bar. But he just can't not hit the target with two out of five penalties in a Champions League final and expect to win.

1:01:17Just can't do it. You know, that's the reality of, you know, what happened in that penalty shootout.

1:01:23Andrew Allen: Yeah, that's true. I mean, look, Ryan made one brilliant save, but every PSG effort was at least on the target. You know, we had two that weren't. And it's very, very difficult to win a penalty shootout, however good a goalkeeper you've got in that situation. like if if Raya is saying one out of five saving one out of five that's 20 % can't really ask for a great deal more than that their goalkeeper didn't get near any of the penalties that we scored no you know and I did think oh is it going to you know as we went to penalties I mean obviously Raya's had an outstanding season himself I was like is it sort of preordained that it's going to be his night but sadly not credit to Marquinhos for showing a bit of Yeah, that was good.

1:02:08Sympathy. That's one of the few post-game bits that I saw.

1:02:14Andrew Allen: Yeah. And listen, horrible moment for Gabriel. I have to say, I think he absolutely has the personality to kind of own it and come through it. and I was really heartened to see his role in the celebrations of the league title on Sunday. I also really liked his Instagram post because he put out like a sort of statement or something on Instagram, but he wasn't apologetic. Do you know what I mean? He didn't say, oh, I'm so sorry. Sure. He just said, didn't get the outcome that we wanted, you know and I'm disappointed and but there was no sort of self-flagellation and I thought psychologically that's a very healthy way to come at it and to look at it and to be and I think yeah I agree you know yeah I don't I don't think footballers are required to apologize to us if they do their best and it doesn't quite work out.

1:03:27Exactly. If they fuck up and they're wrong or they do something stupid, if he really leaves the head on Erling Haaland in that Man City game and gets sent off, then I think you're like, okay, you should probably say sorry for that. You might have let your teammates down. But maybe the other thing to consider, I guess it's all moot at this point, though, is like, do you reorder those penalty takers? You know, if Gabriel is going to take one, are you better to put him a bit further down the middle of the pecking order?

1:04:08Andrew Allen: But then after Jokeres, probably I would have thought Eze for the fifth, if I'm honest. So I don't know how different the outcome would have been.

1:04:22Andrew Allen: I mean, Declan Rice is very secure, isn't he, over a dead ball? Maybe he would have been a good choice for fifth. But then sometimes you put one of your best guys at fifth and it doesn't even get that far. So it's always a calculated gamble. You know, Mikel said afterwards they planned for this scenario. They worked it through. They felt this was the right way to approach it. It was really interesting, by the way. I don't know if you noticed this, but in extra time, the sort of breaks in play before extra time, during extra time, before the penalties, the body languages of the Arsenal and PSG teams were so different.

1:05:02No, I didn't. I was pacing the concourse going out of my mind. So you're probably watching that more closely than I would.

1:05:08Andrew Allen: PSG were kind of just sort of laying about, doing their stretches. They were quite disparate. On the chaise lounge, having a fag, you know. Figuratively, yeah. Whereas Arsenal, every time, were in this very tight huddle with Mikel in the middle. And they were so keyed in to everything he was saying. It was an interesting insight into the different approaches and mentalities of the manager. You know, Enrique was kind of walking around, going player to player, saying the odd word, whereas Arteta was there with a ring of players around him, all focused on him. It was just a really fascinating kind of case study of the way the two different teams behaved in those moments.

1:05:55Andrew Allen: But yeah, horrible way to end a season and horrible way to lose a final. Amy said to me Arsenal have now lost three European finals on penalty shootouts Is it five in a row now? Is it? I think so Wow So yeah Horrible stuff and it's just those scenes are tough I mean as brilliant as this season has been twice Arsenal have had to go through that final pain of you know watching your rivals go up and collect medals and a trophy and there's that great clip i don't know if you've seen it of declan rice kind of ruefully smiling as you watch psg lift the trophy i saw i saw the clip i mean i stayed and i applauded the players and then i was like i have to get out of here i can't watch i can't watch psg be happy as much What can I do from the stands to support the lads more than we did over the course of 120 minutes?

1:07:04And I will say, I thought the Arsenal fans were amazing inside the stadium as well. The songs and the togetherness. And everyone was sharing their beers, sometimes not on purpose. Beers went flying. There was a lot of beer running around. I thought the Arsenal fans were absolutely incredible. Inside the stadium and outside the stadium.

1:07:28Andrew Allen: but i was like the emirates as well from what i gather right i haven't i mean i haven't even seen anything about it because so much has happened there's still so much to talk about there's so much going on that um i haven't caught up with everything yet to be honest um but i had to i had to go so you obviously in the position you were in didn't have that luxury if you can call it that So I made the long walk back into the city centre of Budapest.

1:08:00Yeah, we had some conversations along the way, running into just fans from wherever, just sort of chatting about the game and stuff like that. But I'm sure that was very, very tough for the players and the manager to have to sit through that trophy celebration. It is, but I think it's all fuel to someone like Arteta or someone like Declan Rice.

1:08:28Andrew Allen: I think it's something they're really adept at, is kind of processing this pain and turning it into motivation. And it occurred to me, watching PSG lift the trophy, they waited a long time to get that Champions League. They came close on several occasions before they ultimately did it. And that has been our story in the Premier League, right? Coming close, falling short, often at the final hurdle, and then finding the reserves of energy, belief to go again. And if there's one thing this manager and this team have shown that they are good at, it's going again. Yeah. So that's my source of encouragement, really, is the idea that we know that this is a group that can learn from these moments and use it to help them improve.

1:09:26And I have every faith that they'll do just the same here. Yeah, I mean, you can not try to make anyone feel better. People are feeling better because of the parade. So nothing I can say makes them feel any better than that. But, you know, for all the discussion about how the game went and, you know, we talked about maybe what we need to do and how we need to improve and to change our levels in certain areas of the pitch, which I think is really, really important. At the end of the day, we lost in the finest margin that there could possibly be. You know, a penalty shootout at the end of 120 minutes where the best team in the world, apparently, with all these great players who, you know, who do get days off, whose difficult games in the Champions League are facilitated by the league that they play in, not just because the level is nowhere near as good as the Premier League, but because they also get, well, we'll cancel your game against, you know, whoever they're going to play because, you know, we want you to concentrate on the Champions League.

1:10:33And in the end, it was a penalty shootout and they got a penalty in the game that, you know, maybe we could have avoided. And that's the only difference. And I think sort of bringing it back around to the season, And this has been a season where we have operated too often on the fine margins. More often than not, they've gone our way. Not every time, but more often than not, they've gone our way. This was another fine margins encounter. And we were just the wrong side of it. That's all. Just the wrong side of it. And I think, again, that is part of what Mikel Arteta and Andrea Berta and Josh Kroenke and all the people involved in what we're going to do this summer will take into consideration because they, I'm sure, would prefer not to exist on those fine margins as much.

1:11:26There's always going to be tight games. There's always going to be one nils and two ones. But maybe you give yourself a better chance of winning a Champions League at the end of a long, grueling season if you've had a few more three nils and four nils and you can take some players off at halftime. You know what I mean? So I think this was just a very Arsenal-coded game this season, but which sadly didn't go our way in the end.

1:11:53Andrew Allen: But to bring it back to what you said earlier on, I interviewed Sol Campbell in the run-up to this game, and we spoke about the last Champions League final in 2006. And he spoke about the pain at full-time, And he said, I knew then that that was going to be the last time I was going to be there playing in the Champions League, playing in a final, being at that level. I knew then that was my last chance. And as you said at the top, you look around this squad and that doesn't really ring true for any of them. Like this absolutely can be the start of a period where they're pushing on, going deep in European competitions.

1:12:36Andrew Allen: there could be other Champions League finals ahead, you know, chances for these players to put this right and get that medal that they've dreamed about. So, look, it would have been amazing to win it. I would have loved to win it. But I really do feel that this group can use this to propel them forward again. and the way that we played, I don't believe it's Michael Arteta's ideal. He effectively said as much. He said, you know, you don't design the game to have that little possession to be that much under the cosh. But, you know, his view is kind of PSG forced you to do that with their quality.

1:13:21Andrew Allen: But I think he'll know if he gets back to this stage again, he'll want a team that's capable of approaching it rather differently. No, that's true. I think that's what would give him the best chance, as close as we can. Yeah, 100%. I mean, the lesson we learned from the Champions League semi-final last year against PSG, you know, at that point, I think we were, you know, well behind Liverpool. The lessons there were, we need a deeper squad to go and win the Premier League and to compete in the Champions League at the level we want. And we did that last summer. And we can take those lessons again from this one.

1:13:58And look, 2006 was sort of the end of a cycle, wasn't it? Because Perez left, Vieira had left, Cole left that summer. Saul Campbell, as you say, was going. Even with the move to the new stadium, it sort of felt like the end of a cycle for too many really, really important players. You know, Thierry Henry only stayed another year. So it was kind of the last chance for that team. And you referenced it earlier. the Wayne Bridge goal in 2004, that was where we really felt like we missed our opportunity to go on and win the Champions League. Whereas 2006, because of the circumstances, because of what happened, yeah, you didn't sort of dream of it happening again.

1:14:46It wouldn't surprise me at all if Arsenal got to the Champions League final again next season, having done what we need to do in the summer in terms of recruitment and sort of modifying the squad a little bit. There's enough quality there to do that. I've got no doubt about that, you know?

1:15:01Andrew Allen: Yeah, and look, it's not to say I take it for granted. I recognise that even the very best teams in the world, the biggest clubs, getting to multiple Champions League finals is very difficult. It is still a cup competition. It's still a competition where one bad night can knock you out. And that, in a way that isn't true in the Premier League, where the Premier League is long enough and there's enough games that you can have the odd anomaly or aberration and survive it. And we've had that this season. The Champions League, you need a lot to go for you. You need the right draw. You need the consistency throughout.

1:15:40Andrew Allen: We've delivered that. Which we had. We didn't lose a game until the final. We didn't lose a game until the final. Barely shipped a goal. We didn't actually lose the final in normal time either or indeed in extra time. So, yeah, we were so close. I don't want our criticism of certain aspects of the performance to suggest that we never could have won it. I mean, it was right there. We had that corner, 120 minutes, and Maduweke didn't clear the near post. I was standing there right in line with him going, this is it. If anything is written tonight, it's Arsenal nicking the Champions League in the 120th minute, and we'll get all the suffer ball and all that kind of stuff and none of us will give a fuck because this is kind of what we do.

1:16:28But the delivery was not good.

1:16:31Andrew Allen: I did remember hearing just after that corner, just faintly from the other side of the ground, someone shouting, kill him!

1:16:43Andrew Allen: And it was at that moment Noni Maduweke decided he would not take a penalty. Yeah, I think I'm a bit scared of taking this penalty. Listen, I'm conscious of the fact we're an hour and 15 in and we haven't really done anything on the parade and anything on what happened on Sunday or anything that happened postgame because I think there's some interesting stuff to talk about postgame. And we do have a few questions as well. So I think we'll take a little break here and come back and do as much of that as we possibly can in the time we have. So we'll be back with all of that in part two right after this.

1:17:25Welcome back to the Arsecast Extra. This is part two of the show where we'll try and answer some of the questions that you've sent to us on Blue Sky. At gunnerblog.bsky.social and at arseblog.com. Also on the Arseblog Discord chat server, which you get access to if you are an Arseblog member on Patreon. Before we do that, though, I think there is obviously other stuff to talk about. So tell me about your post-game experience, you know, when that crushing disappointment is gone and you've got to fulfill your media duties. What was your experience of coming back into town? The Arsenal fans you met, the mood generally, because there was a, how would I put it?

1:18:06It felt sort of like a really good wake in many ways. and not just by virtue of the fact that I ended up sitting in a bar with a load of Irish guys, just sort of randomly met a load of Irish guys, adding to that wake sensation. But I thought that was quite an interesting development, if that's the way, or reaction is maybe the best way of putting it.

1:18:32Andrew Allen: Yeah, it was interesting. I was at the stadium for quite a long time. You know, you've got press conferences and you're writing and you've got a lot of work to get through. And it's a bit of a, for me, it was a big come down because there's like a lot of adrenaline in like I'm flying halfway around the world for this game and we might win the Champions League. And then you've got the game itself. And then suddenly that all evaporates. And I couldn't get away from the ground for love nor money. Couldn't get a taxi. Ended up kind of trudging 40 minutes back towards my hotel. And a big part of me was like, I just want to go to bed, to be honest with you.

1:19:08Andrew Allen: But I did venture out to see you and a collection of friendly Irish men who took me in, who saw the muck in my surname and welcomed me as brother. Yes, yes. And they looked beyond my accent. And that was a beautiful thing. And, yeah, that was good, actually. It was nice to sort of have that kind of decompression and sort of moan about the game and, you know, look forward and think what might be next. And then on Sunday morning, I was on an airplane back to England. That was, again, a strange experience being at this airport, just Arsenal shirts everywhere. um you know i think they're about three times the amount of flights out of budapest that sunday as to what you would normally expect and yeah they opened up a terminal that had been defunct for about 12 years i heard really well there you go yeah and um that was nice actually and it's so mad how you know you could be in a foreign city but you'll still and there's thousands of fans there but you'll still run into half a dozen people you know you know and that's partly the gift of you know we know quite a lot of people I suppose by virtue of what we do or they know us yeah but I did genuinely catch up with some mates in the airport and kind of you know console each other and then I got back to London I didn't make the parade itself but I went to Clisole Park where Camille and Rocky had watched the buses go by and sort of, it was quite amazing actually Clisole Park, I used to live right by there just kind of between Highbury and Stoke Newington and it was just full of Arsenal shirts it was this amazing sight of like everywhere you went in the park be it like the playground, the skate park, the a little pond there, like wherever you went, arsehole shirts as far as the eye could see.

1:21:24Andrew Allen: And actually I got a cab from the airport up through London. And like, as you got closer and closer to Islington, just like your vision filled with red and white. It was very, very, very cool. And yeah, Rocky was there when the buses went by, he brought his little kazoo. He insisted on bringing and blowing at the team as they went past. so yeah it was a lovely day actually and we ended up sort of hanging out there for quite a few hours and it was like a mad arsenal festival um and i i think everyone that i've spoken to just had like a really amazing day obviously i saw all the pictures from the bus and reception the team got I read Andrew Allen's really lovely piece about it.

1:22:15Yeah, that was, yeah. He captured that. It was really, yeah, real sort of gonzo journalism kind of vibe on it. But when I got to Dublin yesterday, my journey home was quite uncomplicated. Thankfully, there wasn't a great deal to worry about. I saw loads of people who had flights canceled and, you know, didn't make connections and didn't make trains and all that kind of stuff. So I was quite lucky. but I was tired and emotional. I'm reading Andrew's piece in the back of a taxi and I just like tears running down my face because I think of everything, you know, the whole season, not just the Champions League final.

1:22:51Taxi driver has a look in the rear view mirror. This is a big cartoon, tears plopping down my face. And I could see him thinking, well, will I ask, is he okay? But he just decided to keep quiet and drive. and I thought that was the right thing to do. So thank you very much, Mr. Taxi Driver, for doing that. But the scenes were incredible. We were trying to keep up in Budapest, obviously, on Sunday afternoon online with what was going on. It was being live streamed. People were clipping up, you know, bits. Our old friend Ben White.

1:23:24Andrew Allen: In Japan, get your bum out! In Japan, get your bum out! That kind of stuff was going on, which I thought was amazing. He was, like, very entertaining, Ben White. He was at the top of his game, I think you have to say. You know, eating the burger that the guys threw up and he just sort of ate the burger and then apparently went on his own Instagram to rate the burger, which was good. Throwing the glasses. That was very funny because Arsenal clearly had some sort of, you know, commercial affiliation with these. Are they Google glasses? No, they're Facebook, I think, or Meta, or whatever those wankers are called.

1:24:07Okay, right.

1:24:08Andrew Allen: The players were all asked to kind of film bits and pieces through that. And there is some great footage from them. But Ben White just chucking them in the crowd. Amazing. Thoroughly enjoyable. I'm not having any of your pervert glasses, he said. Get them off. I mean, that's what they are. Let's face it. Not that that's an aspersion on any of the players, just more the product itself, obviously. Sure. I mean, there was just so much going on, wasn't there, in terms of people and stories and pictures and videos. Did you hear the Sausage Dog Lady? No, tell me. Okay, I'll play you a little bit. Sausage Dog Lady gets stopped in the street and interviewed, and she basically tells a story of how she celebrated so loudly that her neighbors called the police.

1:24:54She was in Paris, by the way. Her neighbors called the police. Here she is. So you celebrated the Premier League win in Paris. At my house with my fucking sausage dog. And three policemen turned up at my door. And I was holding my sausage dog under my arm. And they're like, excuse me, madame.

1:25:11Andrew Allen: We've had like a welfare check. You're making too much noise. And I was like, William Saliba has won the fucking league. Thank you. The interviewer's reaction is very funny as well. That was great. Thank you. Thank you. I don't know what to do with it. Yeah, it just was absolutely extraordinary. And like, you know, we've said before in the past, oh, North London is red, you know, after we win a big derby. But it really, really was at the weekend. And I just think those scenes must be the envy of European football. I've never seen anything quite like it, to be honest with you. No, me neither. Me neither.

1:25:51And I think there's a real streak of, I guess, envy or jealousy in some of the reaction to it, you know? People just trying to spoil the party. People trying to spoil people having a good time. Like the idea that Arsenal and Arsenal fans should not celebrate winning the Premier League because they lost the Champions League final. I don't know what to say to that. Either those people don't understand, or they choose not to understand, or they're too stupid to understand. what it means because this was just like an extra layer wasn't it on top of what happened the Tuesday what happened on the Sunday and now this was organized this was uh this was something people were anticipating in a really really big way and and spoke to people and they're like it's a shame there's no like trophy lift but you can understand why there was no way that they could just stop and lift a trophy and celebrate in one static place because of just how many people would have wanted to be there, would have tried to be there.

1:26:58You know, they're talking about like over a million people or 1.25 million people, 1.25 million people on the streets of North London for this team. As you said, extraordinary. It absolutely is. And, you know, in direct contrast to the fans of the team that actually won the thing, they didn't, you know, go around burning shit and setting cars on fire and each other on fire. people were there to have a good time and celebrate and enjoy the community and the love that I think this team has created by virtue of winning the Premier League.

1:27:33Andrew Allen: Yeah, I mean, of course, I think there was, you know, there were a few arrests and it didn't pass entirely without incident, but you have to contextualise that by talking about how many people are actually out on these streets. And, you know, as compared to kind of a typical London day in Islington, I mean, these numbers are just insane. So I think in the round, I think the fans behaved impeccably. I think the club-sponsored clean-up job, as far as I understand it, is going well. And it was just a really, really beautiful occasion. And so many memories for so many people. You know, it's funny, like Rocky won't remember it.

1:28:19Andrew Allen: But I was like, but I want him to be there because it's history. What we're seeing now is history. It's Arsenal history. And it will be one of those moments that is talked about for a long time. I mean, even on my flight on Monday back to the US, it was full of Arsenal fans who'd travelled over just to be part of this parade. Yeah. It was incredible. People came from all around the world for this. To watch a bus go by like in 30 seconds. Yeah. But that's because it was about so much more than the bus. You know, it is about saluting the players. And it is about saluting the manager and the women's team and everyone else who's contributed and been part of this.

1:29:00Andrew Allen: But really, it is about that community. It's about the interactions you have with other fans, other supporters and, you know, commiserating after the final and celebrating the Premier League. And I just thought it came off brilliantly and beautifully. I thought the timing was perfect. and yeah, really, really special. Loved it. So fantastic way to end a season. They deserved it, I think. They deserved it for winning the Premier League and Mikel Arteta deserved it for being a Premier League winning manager. And I think the Arsenal fans have deserved it for 22 years of not winning the Premier League, 22 years of being the butt of too many jokes that I think are, yeah.

1:29:46Listen, we all take stick as football fans, right? You dish it out. You expect to take a bit back. I do think with us it goes a bit far at times. Maybe we bring it on ourselves. We are a very online fan base. I understand that. But genuinely, I think the fans deserve that happiness and deserve that moment and deserve to have those interactions with the team and the manager and the staff and the players. and most importantly, I think, themselves, the community of Arsenal fans, as you said, that was, I think, representative of the best of North London, infused by people from all over the world who came and were made feel welcome and were made feel part of it, even if they live in Chicago or Africa or Australia or wherever they came in from, from everywhere.

1:30:39I think that's really powerful. I really, really do. And it shows you, listen, I don't mean to say you need to have a 22-year title gap in order to create something like this, but it does show you what football can do and how at a time where, you know, there's a sort of level of corruption to everything, but also within football itself. Look at who we played against. Look at how they're operated. Look at who owns them. Look at how they've been set up to win season after season after season. There is just arch corruption everywhere you go. And that's something we have to fight against, you know, too often in life as well.

1:31:26So that joy of winning the Premier League this season, I think, is something that is... People might take issue because we're owned by American billionaires. I get it. I get it. I do understand, but it just felt something more akin to what we really think football should be about.

1:31:43Andrew Allen: Yeah, because that sort of corporate enterprise that is owned by American Billionaires is absolutely part of it. But really, I think what these celebrations have shown over the past few weeks is the community that is the foundation of that, that underpins it, which stems from the local area, but extends right across the globe. And that sense of connection and togetherness is incredibly powerful. And why have rival fans been so scared of Arsenal winning? Why have they hated that prospect so much? Because look what it unleashes. Look how big this club is. Look how far it extends, how much noise we can make, how much passion and love there is for this football club.

1:32:29Andrew Allen: It's an incredibly powerful thing. And yeah, I'm sure those players were overwhelmed. I mean, you saw Myles Lewis Skelly, you know, have a moment where he looks out and he almost breaks down in tears because taking it in, it must be incredibly overwhelming for them to see, you know, we're here at the heart of this massive network. Look how far it extends. Look how much it means to people. and look at how they are prepared to come out and support us the day after we've lost what you know some people might describe as the holy grail for Arsenal Football Club right the white whale even you know we've never won it we've never won it and we all desperately want to do it but aside from that there was recognition of what they've done and what they've given us this season and perhaps I think as well you know with the knowledge that okay we've done it this season we trust these players now to get it over the line again you know i just think it was incredible i i don't know and look we could be talking out of our arses as arsenal fans people will say we're biased i don't know that there's a club like it that sort of fosters that sense of togetherness and inclusivity and diversity i just don't think there is another one out there like that yeah it's one of those just one of those weekends where despite the pain of the football, you feel very, very proud and fortunate to be an Arsenal fan.

1:33:57Absolutely.

1:33:59Andrew Allen: Absolutely. When did you get back then? Monday. Monday afternoon. Yesterday afternoon, yeah. Yes, okay. So it was all right, but I'm feeling the season, I have to say. Yeah. Thankfully, I don't have to go play a World Cup. The people I really feel like it. Yeah. The people I really feel for is the guys who've now got to go to the World Cup. Yeah. Three days off. Don't worry, guys. You get three days off. It's crazy, isn't it? It really is. Crazy. Shall we do a few questions then? I guess we should. I guess we should, yeah. I mean, we've covered a lot of it, but let's do a few.

1:34:43Okay. Let me do this one from John Hussain on the Discord. he says Josh Kroenke talks a good game but so did Ivan Gazidis do you trust him to deliver he certainly looked like he was on the boat at the parade I mean there's another thing Josh Kroenke wearing the Saliba Gabrielle meme t-shirt what the fuck it was great I know I mean he had a good he had a good time on that bus um he was very much in the spirit of it he does talk

1:35:18Andrew Allen: a good game, Josh. A group of us had some time with him about a week ago now. And he's always been someone who spoke well, even when things weren't going particularly well. He's always been quite a compelling speaker. I think, what's the question? Do we trust him? Yeah, do you trust him to deliver? Yes. Yeah, I do actually. Like, hand on heart. Like, you know, people say, oh, it's because you've had access to him and, you know. But I think he really cares. The way I see it, I'm like, his dad, his dad had success in other businesses and bought sports teams. But for Josh, the sports teams are the thing.

1:36:20Andrew Allen: Like if he wants to prove himself and be his own man and, you know, earn his dad's respect and all those things that sons of successful fathers want to do, the sports teams are the path to that. And so I think there's huge personal stakes and investment for him from a sort of emotional, psychological perspective. That's my kind of – that's my sort of COD psychology look at it. But I also think that he has put time in and has put work in. And he – it was interesting chatting to him about the kind of we care, do you thing. I do think that since then he has had to make a kind of concerted effort to kind of understand the fan base aspects of the fan base and the culture around Arsenal and English football so do I trust him well we've got a Premier League title and he has been part of it I suppose I would say do I trust him to keep going I think that's an interesting question.

1:37:35Andrew Allen: It's like, you know, they've had that moment now, KSE, where Stan and Josh get to walk out with the trophy and it's sort of this full circle moment and represents the kind of journey of their ownership. How much hunger is there for more? I think that's the sort of interesting part of it. I think if we take him at face value, there absolutely is. I mean, he's talking about the need to win again, the need to keep winning, the desire to build something, you know, which has longevity, which is more of a dynasty. I guess time will tell. It's also not just a question of his own personal ambitions. I think it's also about what the club are able to do within the sort of financial framework laid out by regulation.

1:38:27Um, they can't just keep putting money in indefinitely because the rules don't permit it.

1:38:36Andrew Allen: So, but, but yeah, I think, I think, I think they've been on an incredible journey as owners and we have seen kind of, and talked about every aspect of that. I mean, it was funny being sat across from Josh when he's talking about We Care Do You and people sort of stringing up effigies and Cronky Out and how much pain and hurt it caused him. And I'm sat there thinking, well, I signed that letter. Do you know what I mean? I've been very much on that journey. But then I think that puts me in a good position to say that I think in a lot of ways they've come good. And I think the owners are doing probably as good a job as we could hope for.

1:39:21Andrew Allen: And that's not to say they're perfect. and I think there are issues within the club. And I thought when I saw that story in the Telegraph about employees having to pay 800 quid for a flight to the Champions League final, I did think that's a bit cheap. I do think the club could have put their hand in their pocket and covered that. I'm not saying they're perfect. I'm not saying they get everything right. But if you look at their record across sports now and what they've won in recent years, the NFL, the Stanley Cup, now Premier League, I believe the Nuggets won the NBA not too long ago.

1:40:02Andrew Allen: They're clearly getting something right. Well, it's different. I think, yeah. It's different from 2019 and the week air to you because we'd experienced that kind of boardroom cold war with Usmanov and the Kroenke's and it was not good for the club. That was really not good for the club. and I think had they only just maybe taken full control or it was maybe a year or two previous, you know. It was 100 % ownership, yeah. So it does take a little bit of time and I think you have to be open to the idea that if criticisms were valid back then, now if they've changed and done better, you have to give credit for that.

1:40:39I absolutely think that's the right thing to do. You can't just have a fixed position on something when somebody, I don't want to say listens, they had their own ambitions and their own way of operating Maybe the We Care to You brought it into some focus and they went, okay, right, we have to think about this alongside the strategy they have for the club in the longer term. But I also think Arsenal feels quite a bit more Josh than Stan, right?

1:41:07Andrew Allen: Yeah, I still couldn't tell you hand on heart how much Stan cares. Yeah. Frankly. No, I don't know either. I mean, I'm sure he does. I'm sure he's very happy with it. But, you know, you can see, we talked about it before, I think, you know, when that executive team was in place, when you had Josh Kroenke, Mikel Arteta, Vinay, Edu, all sort of in around the same age, that was an interesting kind of dynamic. And I think as well, maybe Josh understands sport or playing sport a bit more than Stan does. So I think it was maybe easier. He does. I mean, he played sport to a decent level, didn't he, in college?

1:41:46Exactly. So it's easier for him to connect with, you know,

1:41:51the idea of winning as the most important thing because if you're a businessman, your business fails. I know you go bankrupt and you get more loans and you go again, certainly at the top level. You're too big to fail, really, because you've got too much money, as can often be the case as well. But in sports, it comes down to winning. Winning is everything when you step out on the football pitch or the basketball court or the tennis court or whatever it might be, it's all about winning. And I think maybe he has recognised that, certainly, in the way he's not ingrained himself because he's the fucking owner.

1:42:28But you know what I mean? He's become part of what Arsenal are doing at board level in a more significant way.

1:42:35Andrew Allen: Yeah, definitely. And I think it's right to give credit to Josh individually. I think he's been a big part of kind of changing perceptions around the ownership and, you know, ownership attitude, I think, to the club and to the competitive element. So, yeah. And I don't know, what did you make of those scenes of him on the bus? I mean, like, isn't that sort of, don't we want to see an owner who is engaged to that degree? I absolutely do. I do. I loved seeing him as part of it because I think it demonstrates that he actually does care. And he's not just there to sort of take the limelight. I think there are maybe some other owners who could insert themselves into things, but he sort of feels part of it in a natural way.

1:43:33Like if Stan was on the bus, I'd be like, what are you doing there? But Josh on the bus makes sense, right? It makes sense. So I got no issue. I got no issue with that.

1:43:44Andrew Allen: Yes, it's interesting. Stan was obviously there at Sowers Park and I believe was at the final as well. It was at the final, wasn't it? I saw a picture of him shaking hands with Arsene. They were sat quite close together. Before Arsene glassed him. I was going to say, yeah, there might be some tension there. I don't know. But yeah, I do think they've absolutely kind of delivered in terms of sort of returning us to being truly competitive and indeed being champions. I think what's interesting is like moving forward. Is there an appetite to sustain that? I didn't get a chance to read your piece with him because I was drinking beers in Budapest.

1:44:31Yeah. But is, you know, was there, maybe it didn't make the piece, but maybe within the conversation, you know, there's been some chat about the stadium and expanding the stadium. And was that something that they shed any light on? Because if you make a commitment to doing something like that, there's no point having 75 or 80 ,000 seats and having a crap team. You've got to commit to making sure you're good year in, year out, right? Because as we've seen in previous times, when times are hard, when the team isn't good, when results are bad, when people lose faith, that has a significant impact on how full your ground is and how many sponsors you have and how many corporate boxes you can sell.

1:45:19like corporate boxes at Arsenal next season are going to be like gold dust, right? Yeah. But that's not the case when you're, with all due respect to my fellow countrymen, playing Dundalk in the European or the Europa League, right?

1:45:34Andrew Allen: No, and a lot of people still say that kind of the images of half-full stands may have been what ultimately was quite decisive in decisions around Arsene Wenger and Unai Emery. You know, it's not a good look for a football club of Arsenal stature. In terms of the stadium, it was discussed. I think it's quite interesting if you look at the wording. A lot of people came out of the discussion in their reporting and talked about the idea of expanding the Emirates Stadium. But I think if you go through what Josh actually said, I'm not sure that is right. The word he used was sort of renovating. And my instincts are that I don't think we're going to see another 20 ,000 seats put on the Emirates Stadium anytime soon.

1:46:26Andrew Allen: I think what they will do is look to modernise it, to bring it up to the standards of other stadiums, of modern stadia. And in doing so, probably create newer tiers of sort of pricing within that, you know, that give them greater opportunities for sort of exactly what you're talking about. commercial boxes um chances that generate more revenue without effectively having to knock it down and build it again because there's a yeah the the other aspect of that is like if you're two years at Wembley you're losing a significant competitive advantage right in in your home ground it's not your home ground regardless of what you do or how you might arsenalify it or anything else it is not your home and it it you know it doesn't have everything that this stadium has in terms of location and as we saw over the weekend what that means to be rooted in the community is really really important so two years at Wembley and results go a bit bad you know a lot can happen in two years in football and you've got this manager who you're hoping to tie down to a new contract and you've got this team who are kind of entering their prime and This is their window to win.

1:47:46Andrew Allen: Is it the right thing to do to take them out of a stadium for two years that that they, the manager, the club have put huge work into making feel like home and 20 years into our time there? I think it's beginning to really feel that way. So, yeah, I'm a little bit dubious about when this stadium work might take place and if it will be quite as soon as people anticipate. And also when it happens, you know, will it be a big expansion or will it be a refurb, basically, of what we've already got? And I think they'll be looking as well. I mean, you've been to SoFi. Yeah. So, you know what KSC are capable of.

1:48:32Andrew Allen: And we have people on our board now who have that kind of expertise and experience. I think they'll be looking to not only sort of modernise the in-stadium experience, but also like add things that add to the match day experience for a fan, you know, get things that mean people spend more time at the stadium and consequently probably end up spending more money. So whether that's sort of additional enhanced retail experiences, dining experiences, I think the club will be as much looking at that. You know, how do we build our footprint out? How do we keep people here longer? How do we get people spending more money in the stadium as they will be on adding more seats?

1:49:19Sure.

1:49:19Andrew Allen: You know what they need? Tony painting. Yeah.

1:49:27Did I tell you he called me? Huh? Did I tell you Tony Painting called me? He called you? He called me to say thanks because I mentioned Tony Painting on the podcast and someone who listened to the podcast got Tony Painting to do the painting job at his house. So Tony Painting called me. He goes, oh, you put me on a podcast. I got a job. So there you go. Wow. There's where it is. Do you have a commission from Tony Painting? I don't. I don't, sadly. But it's okay. It's okay. It's all right.

1:49:52Andrew Allen: You did it from the goodness of your heart. Correct. Correct. Have you got a question? Let's do a few quick ones because we're fucking a long way in here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was all about. I like this one actually from Egbertam who said, for years, journalists and pundits, hate those guys, have labelled the team and us, the fans, as too emotional to deride us when we've fallen short. Do you think that the celebrations we've seen on the day we were crowned champions, the day we lifted the trophy and at the parade on Sunday would be anywhere near as incredible if we weren't this emotional.

1:50:26Andrew Allen: I think how emotional we are as a fan base and as a club is the reason everyone can see and feel that this title win is very special. I mean, I think the too emotional thing was applied maybe a bit more to the team than to the fans, right? Because football fans, by their very nature, are emotional, not just Arsenal fans. You know, Liverpool fans are so emotional, They booed a Premier League title winning manager out of the club after an indifferent season, right? So football fans, by their nature, are emotional and will react emotionally to everything, good, bad, or anywhere in the middle. I think it was more that comment was more about the team.

1:51:11And I think we're still emotional. You can see how much we care. You can see how competitive they are. You know, Declan Rice is, it's not done. That was an emotional reaction from Declan Rice. But it was maybe not as, I don't know, it's a bit different, isn't it? And I've got no issue and I never had any issue with it. But, you know, after we beat Liverpool in that game and Martin Odegaard took the camera and took a picture of Stuart McFarlane, they're sort of going, oh, you know, all the celebration police stuff. I've got no issue with it. I think, you know, players, fans, players, and whoever can do what they want, right?

1:51:51When you win a game against a big team, do whatever. But I think we've dialed that aspect of it down a little bit. And maybe it's felt like we're holding it in. They've been holding it in until such time as we got it over the line. But for fans, you know, our emotions have been through the fucking ringer over the last couple of years, right? They really have because of everything. I don't need to go through it again, but three second place finishes, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. All of that is part of what was released in the celebrations that we saw. So I think I've not answered the question.

1:52:31But what I mean is it would have been special 15 years ago. It would have been special 10 years ago. It would have been special five years ago. but after 22 years and three second place finishes, yeah, that's what made it more special rather than sticking it back to those journalists and pundit guys. Although I'm sure there was plenty of that during the rounds. Yeah, I'm sure. I think as fans we are.

1:53:04Andrew Allen: I mean, I don't know what fan isn't really emotional about their club, to be honest. I think that's such a part of being a fan. But, yeah, I think the players have really shown a lot of maturity, though, this season in a lot of difficult situations. And I think they will shake off that tag now. They should, at any rate. They deserve to. And I haven't heard too many people saying it about the celebrations. Because you just make yourself look like a right wanker. If you said, look at them celebrating the Premier League. They're celebrating too early. What about this one? Just quite an interesting one.

1:53:45Doozy123. When Arteta spoke about the need to reach a new level after the PSG match, do you think new player signings will represent the truly crucial shift or will new tactics and overarching approaches to games be the key to the changes we see next season?

1:54:00Andrew Allen: Man, that is a good question. For me, that is kind of the question, really, of the summer and next season. Do they go hand in hand though? I don't know. So Tim, for example, Tim Stillman, and he'll have to forgive me because I'm kind of paraphrasing here, but he often makes this case that kind of Mikel's team is the consequence of the players he has at his disposal. Right. And that we don't really know what Mikel's style is. what we see is him sort of maximising where his talent is located in the team and sort of leaning into that. And I think that is a very compelling case. And it may be that if you gave Mikel Arteta truly world-class attacking talent, we'd see a very different team.

1:54:57Andrew Allen: I think that's pretty logical, to be honest with you. There is a part of me, and Mikel kind of, I felt like he implied that a bit. I don't know if you saw, he gave a really fascinating interview after we won the title to Sky Sports. Because he did so many interviews that week, it kind of slipped through the net. But there was a bit right at the end when he was asked about, you know, the 1-0 wins that got us over the line. And he came out and said, well, you know, I had to look at it and think, is this a team that's going to score 100 goals? And my answer was no. And so we have to go about things a different way.

1:55:34Andrew Allen: And it's sort of the first time publicly that he's kind of spoken in those terms of sort of the element of pragmatism about his team and the degree to which that is a conscious choice based on the tools at his disposal. So I think on that, there is that kind of case that, well, if you give him different plays, you'll get a different style. I will be honest, though, and say there is another part of me that looks at it and goes, well, he spent 150 million-ish on his attack last summer in signing Eze, Yokereza, Madueke. And I'm not sure that sort of dramatically changed his emphasis or unlocked a great deal from an attacking perspective.

1:56:19Andrew Allen: So now you could dig into that and be like, well, were those the right sidings? Yeah, yeah. You know, and who knows what he thinks on that. I mean, I say he spent that money very much. It's a club decision and he's part of that. I don't mean to put all the responsibility on Mikel for those individual talent choices. But, yeah, there is part of me that thinks, like, what is the tipping point? What is it that he needs to kind of change his approach? Because clearly whatever he got last summer, that wasn't it. No, I agree with that. And then it's a question of does he buy players or does the club buy players?

1:57:00Do the club? Will the club? It doesn't matter. You know, the players that we bring in this summer, are they going to be players who, like, for example, you could say Eza is one of those players who you wouldn't necessarily put down strictly as a Mikel Arteta player or a player who you would say fits exactly what Mikel Arteta wants from the players that we've seen him have over the years, right? But he is somebody who can give you something a bit different. That was the talk about Matueke. It's like, well, he's a high-volume dribbler. Nobody has more touches in the box than him. I don't know how, because most of them go behind for a goal kick.

1:57:44But, you know, I shouldn't joke. I should joke. Of course I should joke. But you know what I mean? those were players who were designed to give us something a little bit different. And then I think maybe, I don't know if he struggled to accommodate that. So does he get players who are a bit more halfway house players who are, let's say, you know, the really strong athletes that we know he likes. He likes a fucking six foot plus guy who can run all day. Is that where someone like Morgan Rogers comes in? Cause we've been linked with him. You know, So I do think it is or will be a really, really interesting summer because this season, it really was like, well, if they get it over the line, they get it over the line.

1:58:29It doesn't really matter how we do it once we do it. But we've got comments and questions here that we don't really have time for anymore. But it's about like whether or not that season was fun. It's fun in the end. But when you're going through it, not so much. but then I do think if the lesson is we have to operate further away from the fine margins you have to bring in different profiles of players in positions where we might already have one or two incumbents who might be sidelined by that a bit which I think is potentially a very interesting discussion for the summer

1:59:10Andrew Allen: Yeah, and you're right about it, Zane And he does feel quite un-Miquel and he does bring something different. But then when it gets to a Champions League final, I didn't feel that Mikel was in a hurry to use him. You know what I mean? So I do sometimes think that there may be some of this which is kind of inherent to Mikel. And I don't even know whether he knows that himself. But yeah, that's my sort of nagging doubt. And just as players have areas where they really excel, it's natural that coaches do too. And that's okay. That's okay. Well, Diego Simeone. Yeah, exactly. Like, it's very rare that you...

2:00:04Andrew Allen: It's very rare. Yeah, Mikel excels in a lot of areas. You know, he has, there are more elements. I think this team is more varied than, you know, most objective neutral analysis would have you believe. But yeah, and you say about, can he find a kind of halfway house with those players? Maybe, but what I would say is like, you don't get many Vettinias who are six foot four. Do you know what I mean? I know, yeah, I know exactly, yeah. I don't know how easy it is to have both. Like, it's pretty rare, it's pretty special. Yeah. And similarly with attackers, you know, I'm trying to think of a good example, but if you get Lionel Messi, you've got to accept he ain't tracking back.

2:01:01Andrew Allen: You know, and there is always, I do think with like really elite talents, there is often that trade-off. And maybe Mikel will have to accept some of that trade-off if he really does want to embrace that level of talent. Because actually, if you think about it... And the first thing he did really in his first few years at Arsenal was sort of get rid of a star culture, you know, and there were no exceptions made. And I'm not saying that suddenly you start indulging players, but you might have to, if you really, really want difference makers, you might have to accept some, you know, some rough edges at times.

2:01:49Andrew Allen: But yeah, I mean, the Morgan Rodgers one, I think is interesting because I do think he is a player potentially who he feels like he's in that sweet spot. Potentially for Arteta of sort of being physical, having those attributes, but also having that flair and ability to pull something out of the bag. Yeah, a bit of individualism, you know, and this has been a season based on the collective. And this is the season where we've got it over the line. I don't quite know where he fits. I will say that. I think it raises lots of interesting questions about what that means. Could he play off the left, Rodgers?

2:02:32Andrew Allen: Would it mean someone like Eze going out to the left? What does it mean for Martin Odegaard? I think these are all interesting questions. But as a player, I really enjoy watching. Yeah, me too. Scores some very good goals as well. and sort of game-breaking goals, I think you would call them. I like this one from Stan 10. I couldn't get over all the mad places people climbed up to watch the parade. Apparently 75 people needed to be rescued because I got up too high. I read that somewhere. I don't know if that's true or not. He wants to know if you and James decide to climb a lamppost to watch the Champions League winners parade next year, who would get to the top fastest?

2:03:13Andrew Allen: I think it's very important that I don't try and climb a lamppost. I also think that, yeah. I mean, I might go as far as a bollard, perhaps. But I recognise my limits at this point. No, I think it wouldn't be fair on me or the lamppost, to be honest with you. Red Hawk wants to know, now that the season is over and transfers will probably happen after the World Cup, who your dark horse is or who you're excited to watch for in the competition with no affiliation to any country, I'm excited to see Norway and Scotland. Yeah, Norway at a World Cup will be interesting. Odegaard and Haaland, see how they fare.

2:03:51Andrew Allen: I'm excited about Japan. They are my kind of dark horses. That's my sort of sneaky tip is Japan to go quite deep, maybe like a semi-final. I think they've got a great team. They've got some really, really skilful players. They've beaten a ton of good teams in the run-up in their friendlies, including coming to England and playing Wembley off, coming to Wembley and playing England off the park. Takeiro Tomiyasu after a... Yes, good for him. A bitty spell at Ajax ought to be there. So, yeah, I always enjoy Japan at the World Cup and I think this is maybe the best Japanese team I've seen. So that's my sneaky pick to surprise a few people.

2:04:36Okay, okay. I don't give a fuck, I have to say. Okay. I'm going in full don't care mode. I need like the summer without any like pressure or I don't want to invest anything emotionally in anyone because you just end up getting hurt.

2:04:56Andrew Allen: That's what happens. I think, by the way, it'd be interesting to see how the discourse around set pieces shifts if England lean into that aspect of the game as much as I'm expecting them to. Like, you know, they've obviously got Saka and Rice potentially for deliveries. and they've got a number of decent targets in the box as well. I think it's going to be, you know, you look at the squad, he's picked Ivan Toney, for example, who is such a threat in those situations, maybe later in games. I think Tuchel's really going to lean into that and I wonder if set pieces will be deemed quite as evil if they help deliver England to the latter stages of the World Cup.

2:05:33Or, you know, for the rest of the world, even more evil. That might be the problem, you know what I mean? It's like, oh, we've got to do away. Arsenal and England. Yeah, I mean, it may force the FIFA rule change. Halfway through the tournament, they'd probably do something about that. And that's why you're out there in the US for the summer, because, yeah, our schedule, our Arscast Extra schedule is going to be a bit different because you're doing World Cup-y stuff.

2:05:59Andrew Allen: Doing World Cup stuff ought to be revealed, I believe, shortly. But yes. All right, you're allowed to say that? I'm allowed to say that, yeah. I think so. Well, I haven't asked anyone, but what are they going to do? You know what I mean? We've said it now. And you're there. They're not going to send you back. No, it's too expensive. So I think they already had to send me to Budapest and back, which actually, to be fair, was cheaper, I think, than flying from London. But yeah, all to be revealed. Yeah, so I'll be watching quite a lot of the World Cup. Okay. So I can be, if you don't care, I can be the kind of the World Cup correspondent for the Artscast Extra, if you like.

2:06:39Okay.

2:06:39Andrew Allen: Let you know what's going on. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll keep a cursory eye on everything and let you do the heavy lifting there. Okay. Let's get this out. Enjoy your day in the USA. It's now nearly half five here in this part of the world. So we've got to get this podcast out. We will do something for you a little bit later on in the week. Maybe a bit more of a season review conversation. So stand by for that for NARScast regular. For now, though, folks, take it easy. Thank you for being with us throughout this Premier League title winning season. We really do appreciate it. And we will catch you on the next one.

2:07:13Bye-bye.

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