Arsecast Extra Episode 714 - 27.09.2026

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0:53Hello and welcome to another Arsecast Extra as always with James from Gunnar Blog. James, good morning to you. Good morning, Andrew, and happy birthday for yesterday. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Yeah, it was my birthday yesterday. Which is why my voice is a little bit, you know, croaky today. I was out last night for some dinner with friends and family. So, yeah, it's a bit croaky.

1:21Andrew Mangan: Okay. You don't sound too bad. You don't sound too bad. Thanks. And listen, I know birthdays can be a sensitive time if you're one year older. But it's comforting to know, Andrew, you can still double your age and the number is not as high as the amount of charges Manchester City have been found guilty of. You know what? I'm a little bit worried about this podcast. Why is that? Well, when I asked for the questions, which I did this morning, I meant to do it last night, but I forgot because I was out and about. But when I asked for the questions, they're pretty much all about Manchester City and the charges.

2:00Let's say if we had 115 questions, 114 of those questions are about the Man City thing. So I think, and I don't want to be overly dramatic here, when it comes to part two, I think we could be fucked.

2:16Andrew Mangan: Interesting. All right, well, listen, in the interim, we can look for some, what's our best 11? We might have to do what's our best 11. Which is your best 11 of the 114 charges? What's your top 11? Manchester City Chargers. Did you have 114 candles on the cake, Andrew? Sadly not. There was no cake. My neighbour dropped me down some cake while I was out and left it on the doorstep. So I had a bit of chocolate cake for breakfast this morning. That's where I am with my life. Very indulgent. Yeah. They dropped it down from above, from an upstairs window. No, I mean, does that not make sense to you?

2:59Andrew Mangan: It flew in via drone. I don't think we would say that. They dropped me down some cake. Yeah. Dropped him? Yeah, you can drop in on somebody, but I guess it's something we would say. Yeah, they dropped me down some cake. If you dropped them something, would you be dropping it up? I'd drop up, yeah. They've got to come down. I've got to go up the road. They've got to come down the road. So I'd drop it up to them, you see. It's all relative to the gradient, basically. Well, that's very kind of them. Yeah, I mean, wow. What a few days. What a lovely birthday present for you as well. It really was.

3:32It really, I mean, out of the blue as well. We've been waiting for such a long time. And then we get the Oren bomb. I had a word with him, Andrew.

3:41Andrew Mangan: He's known that for months, but I said, very special friend of mine's got a birthday coming up. If you could sit on that, I'd greatly appreciate it. Fair. I mean, what a gesture that was. Yeah, I mean, incredible stuff, really. because I was sort of, you know, over the years I've been like, ah, they're going to get away with everything. And then I'm like, ah, they probably won't get away with everything. They'll get away with something, though. And then you sort of convince yourself one way or the other, ah, it's probably not going to happen, or, you know, all the jokes doing the rounds, Man City found guilty, so Everton get duck points, et cetera, et cetera.

4:19But this was like pretty much a slam dunk for the Premier League and their legal team, right?

4:28Andrew Mangan: yes it's sort of like i don't know waiting for david walliams to be cancelled you know you know it's coming but you like you know it's coming but it goes on drags out for so long you're like maybe it won't maybe it'll just be knighted and then lo and behold something arises yeah i mean it has been sort of in the back of everyone's mind really um but and it's just i mean it's been an eight-year process i think since the initial kind of uefa investigations it's been two years since the hearing into the 115 charges so it's been incredibly lengthy and protracted i mean listen i'm sure more of this will come out in the wash in the end right we'll get the the real behind the scenes story and stuff.

5:23But, you know, is your sense of the time this has taken down to the complexity of the case, or perhaps it being made more complex and more difficult because of, I don't know, you know, the quote wasn't there about Manchester City when they had that, those sanctions or those charges from UEFA, which they, I think, escaped without too much sanction, but because of technicalities more than innocence, right? And the quote from the Manchester City chairman or whoever it was, was that he would rather, you know, spend millions on 50 lawyers than give UEFA anything, you know, just keep them tied up, tied up, tied up.

6:07I mean, it doesn't seem unreasonable or unfair to think that that might be part of why this has taken so long. I know it's a lot of charges. I know there's a lot to get right. And it's obviously very, very complex from a legal perspective. But I do wonder if that was, you know, just part of their, the way they operate it.

6:28Andrew Mangan: I think so. I mean, the scale of it is enormous. And so it is a substantial body of work. I mean, this is a case with, it doesn't say again, 115 separate charges with many, many, many different lawyers working on it with costs spiralling into the tens of millions, I presume. Costs which Man City may have to find themselves having to foot at some point in time. And so naturally, I think it's going to be a lengthy process. Also, I think, you know, I believe I'm right in saying the reason this story has come to light is because Premier League clubs have been informed or received some update on the situation.

7:14Andrew Mangan: But what would be the right time to deliver that, really? You know, I think the timing of this is probably not entirely coincidental and probably not entirely about, oh, we actually finished it yesterday. Do you know what I mean? I think, you know, if this was to emerge or become public, I don't know, in the midst of a title race or the final stretch of a title race, I think that would land somewhat differently and have very different implications. So I actually think being relatively close to the start of a new season, I suppose, practically makes a degree of sense as well. But it is absurd how long we've waited.

7:54Andrew Mangan: It has cast a significant shadow. and yeah I'm just so relieved that there is some measure of clarity right now yeah and the the clarity is that they're industrial scale cheating bastards yeah guilty as fuck yeah was is what the official um pronouncement yeah like the judge yes yes I pronounce them guilty as fuck um and and look they'll appeal you know um and in the uefa case uh they ended up massively diminishing the punishment through i think it was through the court of arbitration sport um i don't think they have that facility this time around i think it will all be done through the kind of independent committee.

8:45Andrew Mangan: But yeah, I just, I think it's great that we've got to this point and something that we've all kind of, I think it's fair to say that anyone who's been watching football over this period since Manchester City took on this new ownership has sort of sensed or smelt that there was something that didn't quite feel right or fair about it. And to be able to kind of put a name to that, you know, it's a degree of vindication, isn't it, for people who have been fighting this fight for a long time. And there are many people along the way who have played their part in getting to this point. Yeah. I mean, listen, the potential ramifications are enormous, you know.

9:36But the impact it has already had on football is immeasurable, right? Because of the way they've operated, because of what they have won and how they have won it. And listen, they are a very well-run professional outfit who got the best manager in the world and brought in some of the best players in the world and made an incredible team and incredible teams over the years, right? But underpinning all of that was, you know, as we know now, as I said, industrial scale cheating, financial cheating, right? That's what it's about. It's about having the resources to sustain and build what they built.

10:26And that's the foundation of everything. That is the foundation of everything that they've done. But in the meantime, you know, other clubs and football in general have been really, really impacted by this. You know, how do you compete? You know, you push the boat out yourself financially. The transfer market, you know, as we know, has gone crazy. I'm not saying that's all Manchester City's fault, but is it in some way because of how teams have had to operate to try and close the gap on Manchester City? I mean, look at what we've done. Look at how we did it by spending a fucking load of money.

11:06That was the only way that you could do it. And we've been very lucky to have a brilliant manager in place as well, who was able to close the gap from a financial point of view. But, you know, all of it is just, you know, hollow now, really, you know, any success that they have, I don't know what's more than an asterisk, you know, it's way, way bigger than that. And I think already the damage that has been done to football, not just by Manchester City, but I think the door was very much opened by Roman Abramovich when he came to Chelsea and the way that he operated. And I think they came in and said, well, we can do that, but we'll do it like we'll do it a bit smarter.

11:46We'll do it. You know, we'll try and hide it in the modern era because of the financial rules. But, you know, I don't know how to really explain what an influence it has had on football, not just in the Premier League, but around Europe and around the world. Yeah.

12:05Andrew Mangan: I mean, even if we distill it right down and look at this most recent summer transfer window, Manchester City's willingness to pay what they did for Elliot Anderson distorted the market, I think, and took players. I'm thinking of the likes of Sandro Tsunali or Morgan Rodgers players that Arsenal were interested in took their price range to a point where it was infeasible for us and that's been going on for a very long time you know that distortion of market value yeah it's I mean how do you how do you reflect on it all how do you feel today do you feel aggrieved do you feel cheated Do you feel like it has in some way diminished what we've spent hours watching and digesting and investing in and talking about?

13:04Andrew Mangan: How do you reflect on that period now? It's a really good question because it feels like, you know, an artifice in a way, you know. that, I mean, I did a podcast on Thursday about the rivalry between Arsenal and Manchester United, right? Yes. And it was a really interesting chat with Dominic Hoffman, who's got the book out. And it was quite fun, actually, to reflect on this organic sporting, footballing rivalry, right, that grew between Arsenal and Manchester United. And even if Manchester United at that time were financially you know a powerhouse in comparison to arsenal and pretty much every other premier league club the reason was that they were the first club to really recognize the the sort of power of marketing and and all that kind of stuff right that this global fan base and and everything else you know their their wealth was uh how do i put it it wasn't a benefactor it wasn't a nation state It wasn't an oligarch.

14:17The club generated its own money, right? And obviously things have changed there now, and that's by the by. But Arsenal and Manchester United, I made the point to Dominic that it felt like the last really organic sporting Premier League rivalry because once Abramovich came along and Chelsea came along, like Chelsea versus Manchester United or Chelsea versus Liverpool or Liverpool versus Manchester City, like that was that was big but when you look back in it now and you think about the games and you think about the way the teams were built and you think about what we've done over the last you know three or four years basically head-to-head with Manchester City right and Liverpool obviously won the the title under Arna Slott but you know that they always felt like the main competitor to everybody for Arsenal and for Liverpool when they were you know really competitive under under Jurgen Klopp and you know the four in a row and it's like I don't know really I don't know does it not that it was a waste of time or a waste of energy or anything like that I'm just sort of glad that we won it last year while this or before this happened and while Pep was still there you know because I think otherwise it would feel really, really hollow.

15:44And I think it has sort of really undermined the credibility of the Premier League, what they've done and what they've won and how they've won it. Like, I think that's a really big issue for the Premier League to deal with because, you know, the most successful team in the last, what, 10, 12 years, 15 years, in the Premier League have done it in a way that is contrary to the rules that everybody else has been playing by, and one team has not been playing by the rules. So I think it's a really existential kind of issue for the Premier League. I mean, how do you feel about it? I think it's been really interesting,

16:33Andrew Mangan: and I guess wholly unsurprising to observe some of the comments that have come out afterwards from Rodri and the likes of others about. Not sort of brushing it off, but sort of saying, you know, at the end of the day, we won that on the pitch and we had to win on the pitch. And I would second your point of view that it's fantastic that Arsenal were able to win the league before this is addressed because we beat Manchester City on the pitch in a period or certainly following on from a period where they were very much cheating off it. And it is sort of systemic cheating. I mean, the counts are 54 times failure to provide accurate financial information, 14 times failure to provide accurate details for player and manager payments, five times failure to comply with UEFA's rules, including financial fair play, seven times breaching Premier League profit and sustainability rules, and 35 times failure to cooperate with Premier League investigations.

17:40Andrew Mangan: So it's comprehensive and it's systematic and it's thorough cheating. And the phrase that Arsene Wenger coined, actually, I think it was initially in regard to Chelsea under Rukh Bramovich, of financial doping comes to mind. Because, yes, these are games being played on the pitch, but one team is at an unfair advantage because of scurrilous activity off it. And that's exactly what we've seen. You know, no one can deny that Pep Guardiola is a fantastic coach. Nobody can deny that, you know, Erling Haaland or Kevin De Bruyne or David Silva are great players and that City played fantastic winning football.

18:27Andrew Mangan: No one is arguing that. But they were only in a position to have, to keep, to attract those players, that calibre of coach, because of what they were up to behind the scenes, which, based on this verdict, was cooking the books. I mean, it's pretty clear cut. So in terms of how it makes me feel, I kind of, I can't live like that. do you know what i mean for speaking for myself personally like i can't live in the past and be like you know um i'm not that interested and we'll talk about what an appropriate punishment is but i'm not that interested in the retrospective stuff because i sort of feel like football move move so fast what's gone is gone what's done is done um i'm more interested in what can be done moving forward and how this can be addressed in the here and now.

19:32Sure, sure. No, I get that. I get that. Yeah, I just find it hard to sort of put in words what exactly I think about what it has meant for every game of football that we've watched over the last however many years, you know? It is difficult, you know, because you, I think you're right. You have to recognize that they put together brilliant teams and they only could put those teams together, though, by doing what they did with their finances. So I don't know. As you say, you can't change the past. So it's really about what they do in the here and now or whenever that might happen in terms of sanctions, in terms of punishments.

20:25So, I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Because there's all kinds of punishments available or people have been talking about points deductions, relegation, transfer bans. They could even be expelled from the Premier League itself. I mean you say we can't live in the past and indeed that's what I said do you have any interest in kind of retrospective title changes I think I'm right in saying that the period that's actually being studied here doesn't

20:58Andrew Mangan: necessarily benefit us because I don't know that we were the direct runner-up because isn't it between like 2012 and 2018 or something like that Do you think that's the limit of it? Do you think that's... Of course not. Of course not. But that's what the charge is applied to. Sure. But yeah, I mean, so let's say they did say, well, you know, they took the logical route of success begot success. Therefore, we're removing Premier League titles and handing them over to runners-up. How do you feel about that? Are you interested in that? Would you want it? I think the repercussions of that would be so enormous that it's almost impossible.

21:45Do you not think?

21:46Andrew Mangan: Well, we'd have to find room on the sort of Emirates hoardings for a lot more trophies. I just mean that if you all of a sudden, okay, so now second is first. And then what happened to the team that finished outside the Champions League places? What happened to the teams that would have finished in Europe, let's say, if City hadn't been there? Well, that question will be posed, won't it? Because from what we understand, clubs are gearing up to sue, effectively. Yeah, I mean, I think Spurs are the major beneficiary, potentially, in terms of being nudged out of the Champions League on several occasions.

22:25yeah uh i mean i think i just think like the there's a minefield there which is why you know i'm i'm sort of less interested in that but more interested in the idea that we've got to have a punishment that fits the crime here because if it is this you know big and if it is this uh just enormous in terms of what the legal repercussions could be in terms of compensation in terms of, you know, think of all the clubs and all the players and all the managers and all the fans, you know, the livelihoods that have been radically changed and shifted and altered because of what Manchester City have done and the success that they've had, which has come at the expense of pretty much every other club in the Premier League because they just get, you know, it's enormous.

23:13And, you know, going back to what we were talking about in terms of the impact it's had on the game, I don't think we should forget fans. Because what does increased transfer spending, higher wages, higher transfer fees, all of that, to some extent, gets passed on to fans in terms of ticket prices and all those kinds of things, right? ticket price rises well we've spent like 400 million so here's like three percent on your season ticket and three percent next year you know it's not just people who work in football it's just regular football fans as well who are impacted by this kind of like the ripple effects of their cheating go on forever basically yeah i mean can i go to sky and say i've been paying you

24:12Andrew Mangan: to watch a compromise competition. Do you know what I mean? We're all putting money into the game in all sorts of ways every single season.

24:22And yeah, you know, it's not been straight.

24:28Andrew Mangan: On the financial point, I don't know if you know this, but Everton earlier this year were made to pay Burnley, I think£35 million because of their broken PSR regulations, which resulted in, I think, Burnley's relegation. Now, that was for one PSR breach over a three-year period, but this is, as we say, much more kind of systemic, ongoing issue with Man City. So what kind of compensation could be due? I mean... How do they even work it out? how do they work out the impact on the clubs that were affected, whether it was lack of Europe or lack of a title or relegation or whatever, I don't even know how they go about unravelling that.

25:19Like it's huge. It's a mess, yeah.

25:23Andrew Mangan: So in terms of, you used the phrase of punishment that fits the crime. I assume you mean dissolution of the football club, right? Well, you know, maybe not quite that, but like, I certainly think... What do you think's right? I think they've got to be...

25:46Definitely a massive points deduction. I think they probably deserve to be kicked out of the Premier League, relegated to wherever. Maybe they can make their way back. but I just think it is on such a scale. And as we've just said, you know, the impact across football and the Premier League, I mean, if you're the Premier League, right, you've taken this case against Manchester City for a period, you know, between 2012 and 2018, as you say, and I'm, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if it went on longer than that and, you know, was still going on while all of this was happening. if you are the premier league and you are trying to present your league is the best league in the world, the most exciting league in the world with all the best players and the, the flashes product and all that kind of stuff.

26:43And it turns out that, you know, the team that has won the league more than anybody else in recent history has done it in part by cheating financially. I think you have a duty of care to your own product. first and foremost to say, this is completely unacceptable. We will not allow this to happen again. Here is what will happen to you if you try this. It has to be, to some extent, a kind of, what's the word I'm looking for here? Like you come down harshly as a deterrent. Yeah, they've got to make an example of them. I think they have to make an example of them. And I think the fact that not only have they done this, but throughout have been singularly uncooperative as how many charges?

27:3535 charges of not cooperating with the Premier League. So uncooperative and probably obstructive in many ways as well. Like they basically said, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. And now they've been found guilty. Why should there be any leniency whatsoever? Why?

27:56Andrew Mangan: Well, no, I mean, there's no mitigation there. You know, the likes of Everton and Chelsea as well have been very compliant with investigations into their finances. And they've been, in Chelsea's case, you know, they were very much able to do so because they could kind of pin everything on a previous ownership, you know, so they could kind of hide behind that to a certain extent. Yeah. But of course, that factors into the way the case is handled and the punishment is meted out. And City have been absolutely intransigent, inflexible, unwilling to cooperate, and at this point have found to be lying.

28:38Andrew Mangan: So, yeah, I think there needs to be a very significant punishment. And I think they need to get in front of it now and make that known, make it public before the appeal process really kicks off in earnest. because I think there's an opportunity to, A, demonstrate the seriousness of the charges and also generate a sort of public debate and support around it, which might apply pressure. Because obviously one of the things I worry about is the kind of political aspect. You know, will the Premier League be granted? Will it have enough? does it have the stomach you know to really send a message here and will there be political pressure from outside of the Premier League do you do you think that that might be something they have to contend with because of I think so the international relations basically yeah yeah Abu Dhabi have invested a lot you know in Manchester and around the the stadium and all that kind of stuff which of course, you know, is beneficial to that community.

29:49But ultimately, this is sports washing 101. This is what you do and this is how you do it, right? Do you think that the Premier League will be able to withstand any kind of political pressure to, if not go easy on Manchester City, but to sort of be a bit more lenient?

30:09Andrew Mangan: I'm not, listen, I'm sure there'll be quiet words had at number 10 or elsewhere. in an attempt to diminish the sort of scale of any punishment. I'm sure those conversations will go on. But I think the Premier League's kind of independent credibility is at stake. And there is also now a football regulator whose credibility is at stake here. So I guess I'm sort of cautiously optimistic that they will actually deliver an appropriate punishment. For me, what is that? Well, you've got to look at the precedent for these kinds of breaches and rule breaks, and that is points deductions. I think it's got to be relative.

31:00Andrew Mangan: We've seen, I don't know, two point deductions handed out, eight point deductions handed out. Now, for this many charges, I think it needs to be a points reduction that effectively relegates Man City.

31:18Andrew Mangan: With them being quite a competent team, that needs to be pretty big. I mean, I don't know, 80 points? Is that what it would require? Perhaps. but I think it needs to be in that sort of scale that it sort of almost guarantees them to be out of the Premier League for at least a season. Do you think the title should be stripped from them or do they just stand with an asterisk or how do they deal with it in that sense? Because, you know, this is certainly in football terms, it is kind of unprecedented in English football anyway, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, it's interesting when, obviously when Pep left, he had the big photo shoot, didn't he?

32:02Andrew Mangan: That's how everyone knew he was going. He had the video shoot on the pitch with all the trophies. What did he know? Makes you wonder. But he's got those now in an album somewhere. So I think probably an asterisk. I think taking the trophies away is really complicated. I'm not saying it's wrong. I would understand it. I mean, am I right in saying the Tour de France, they stripped Armstrong of his first places, but they didn't redistribute them. They didn't hand them out to the runners-up. Is that right? That's right. I did say that in the blog yesterday, I think it was. And to be fair, a couple of people came back to me and said, well, part of the problem with handing it to the guy who finished second was the other guy.

32:49He was doping like a bastard as well. And so was the guy in third. And so was the guy who finished fourth. You know, so, you know, City have got the financial EPO, but, you know, the riders, it was a bit more widespread in that sport, you know.

33:06Andrew Mangan: Yeah, and listen, that sport, like particularly in cycling, but like very few people are whiter than white in sport. And in order to compete with Man City, you know, Arsenal have had to be really aggressive and flirt with the fringes of these regulations themselves at times. But they've always sought to be compliant and play by the rules. But it's just interesting, isn't it? Like when somebody is behaving in this way and distorting things to this extent, you know, if you want to compete, there's a degree to which you have you end up kind of chasing that um which can be very very complicated but i think um yeah so i think a relegation via points deduction i think there's a bigger conversation um which a few point people have raised with me over the last few days which is should these owners be allowed to continue to own the club you know give it given the given the degree to which they have flouted the regulations and been so unhelpful throughout the investigation what are we thinking that they're going to just turn over a new leaf like i i i would really i would like to see uh whether it's formally or or kind of informally i'd like to see them forced to sell the club i don't think there's a place for them in english football that's my view wow because they they've cheated andrew no no i agree i agree i just don't know is the power there within the the remit of the football regulator or the premier league to force them to sell can they um after the fact fail a fit and proper person's test or whatever that thing is that stops well that's the second part i was going to say i would like to see this opportunity used to really make that test or assessment of who can own a football club much more rigorous.

35:14Andrew Mangan: And I would like to see the elimination of effective nation-states owning football teams in this country. Yeah, listen, I couldn't disagree with that, but we're also in an era where the number of people who can own a Premier League club is smaller and smaller and smaller because of just how much it costs and how much it costs to run a football club. And at the end of the day, really, football clubs are not like massively profitable businesses, are they? You're trying, you know, you're under pressure basically to spend every penny you have on players. you know billionaires own football clubs but they don't really own them to make money you know I think you can look at people who've got a you know sporting interest or maybe they're you know interested in sports washing and they're looking you know to to use their soft power whatever you call it as the owners of a football club to sort of do other things in the world or whatever it might be but uh like who the fuck can buy manchester city if they're forced to sell it just another billionaire i guess well yeah i mean i guess they would listen i haven't worked this through but i imagine they would be sold at a massively diminished value partly because of all the costs and debt they may be settled with through this process um how exactly that works I don't know.

36:46Andrew Mangan: But what I don't know is how, what I also don't know is how you, yeah, how they repair the trust in that ownership and administration. And what about the individuals involved? What about the executives who must have been party to this and been aware? you know i would like to see individual bans or suspensions given out um yeah i i think that they should come down like an absolute ton of bricks frankly and um i listen will that happen i don't know but but you know that problem of nation-state ownership i think to a certain extent private equity ownership as well because of the lack of transparency that exists there.

37:37Andrew Mangan: I'd love the football regulator to kind of take that problem on using this moment as a jumping off point and properly address it. But yeah, I do think also the question of how Abu Dhabi proceed from this point is really interesting. I mean, this is deeply humiliating for them. It is, we've spoken about sports washing and ultimately the aim being I guess to improve perception but imagine how damaging this is and I genuinely think there's a chance that they may want to get out as well because I don't see how it gets better from here really I don't know I think they'll probably front it up or front it out you know I think they're just built.

38:30Andrew Mangan: Well, they have thus far. Yeah, exactly. They still are. I saw the statement yesterday from Khaldun. Yeah. I mean, is another, were City the first, like the City group, right? Was that the first real multi-club model? Like, is that another impact that they've had on the game or were there others, you know, other owners? Because there was always that thing with UEFA, wasn't there, with European competition where, you know, you couldn't have two clubs playing each other if the owners were the same. I think they're the first to do it on that scale, aren't they? I mean, you've got Red Bull kind of alongside that.

39:05Andrew Mangan: There's always been relationships with clubs, you know. Feeder clubs and things like that. Feeder clubs, exactly, yeah. But on that scale, probably. I mean, I think they're the first with the resource to do it on that sort of scale.

39:23Andrew Mangan: Yeah, it's going to be fascinating to see. what do you think the impact is going to be the next time City take to the field when they play who do they play next is it Liverpool that'd be pretty spicy given the rivalry between those two teams across this relevant period as well it is yeah Liverpool versus Manchester City is it you know same old man city always cheating Can we get rid of that song from Arsenal and apply it to Manchester City? You know, in the very short term, the spotlight on them is going to be absolutely enormous. Yeah, I mean, they should be booed out of every stadium in the country, really.

40:10Andrew Mangan: Whether they will be, because, I mean, historically, no one's really cared about Man City. That's the interesting thing, isn't it? The sort of paradox is... But that's another aspect of how insidious this thing is. Yeah, the perfect crime, really. You know, just make everybody so indifferent to you because at the back of everyone's mind, everyone kind of knew for years and years that there was something not right about Manchester City, that there were financial improprieties going on. So the way it impacted other football fans was, we don't care if Man City win the league, who gives a fuck? And I think what's been sort of fascinating, by the way, their next game after Liverpool is against PSG.

40:52You couldn't fucking write the script. For fuck's sake. But, you know, you have this sort of situation where it was always staggering to me that, let's say there was a cohort of Liverpool fans who now, right, can look back and think we were cheated out of some league titles by Manchester City. but still preferred City to win the league than Arsenal. And I think that is a really, I mean, maybe it's symptomatic of the modern game or the modern fan or the way things play out online these days. But for me, you know, when I was watching Liverpool and Manchester City go for it, I always kind of wanted Liverpool to win, not because I care about Liverpool, obviously, but because for me, it was proof that you could do it, that a club like Arsenal or Liverpool could compete with Manchester City and you could win the league.

41:46But it was just, you know, I think that's really damaging part as well, where they go, well, who cares if Manchester City win? I just don't want Arsenal to win. And I get people who don't want Arsenal to win anything. I just could never wrap my head around the idea that Man City is preferable, you know, above and beyond the fact that you can just say, fuck it they're cheating anyway who cares you know i think that's a what that's a it's a it's a warped mindset to get into or to be put into because of the way city have operated

42:18Andrew Mangan: no and i think it's afforded city a degree of cover yeah well probably um yeah it's almost sort of been allowed to creep in because you know people just don't get as emotionally outraged by City as other clubs. But I hope that changes now. I really do. I mean, I mean that. I hope they're booed up and down the country. And I'm sure they'll win plenty of games, you know, and they've got good players and, you know, they're top of the Premier League for now. So, you know, and maybe it will forge some sort of, I don't know, us against them mentality or something like that in them. But it's absolutely the reception they deserve.

43:01Andrew Mangan: and I say they deserve you know who are we really angry with here I must say it's interesting to think about the Manchester City fans and look a lot of them will be unapologetic and we had a great time and we enjoyed it and you know it's only a few bits of red tape but they've been massively let down they have been massively let down by their owners in my view you know they have invested emotionally and financially and all sorts of other ways in a project which has been fundamentally undermined um i you know i think yeah i i think that's i think that's really bad yeah i guess my sympathy is very very in very short supply well i can think about that now is that wanker with the bottle and he can go fuck himself, you know?

43:54But, you know, they got on board. Noel Gallagher coming out going, oh, wow, we never knew about any of this. Of course you fucking did. You know, they all knew. Maybe some of them objected. Yeah, maybe.

44:05Andrew Mangan: I kind of feel like it's not their job to do the paperwork, you know. Sure, sure. Someone's paid a lot of money to keep that club compliant and they didn't. And that's where my anger is and my frustration is, is with the people at the top of that club who determined it would take this path. But yeah, listen, no, no great sympathy for the City fans. But I do think all fans suffer as a consequence. Sure. You're at the mercy of, you know, the decisions that your football club makes, whether you agree with them or not, you know, as a fan. and then it's a question of like you know and it's something we've had to reckon with ourselves in recent times it's like you know is that you know sufficient for me to walk away or is that you know can i do that or can i just separate that thing from um from where we are i mean should we have a word for um rui pinto by the way who's the guy who basically exposed all this via the football leaks website that ultimately what he has done has done football a real service because however you want to frame ownership issues or whatever if there is cheating of this scale and it's industrial scale cheating as we said the fact that it has been exposed come to light And now basically proven as we await punishments and sanctions has to be a good thing for the game because the way people with a lot of money can basically get away with anything they want because they have a lot of money is a really unfortunate part of the modern world in which we live, right?

45:57people whose wealth allows them to skirt the law, break the law, commit crime, and basically get away with it. And I'm not just talking about football, obviously, but their wealth sort of insulates them from the kind of punishment that they should probably be receiving or definitely be receiving. So I think in this instance, the fact that it has been brought to light, it's good to see that even with all the wealth in the world and even with all the underhand tactics and even with all the lawyers, the army of lawyers that have been working on this case for Manchester City, they're still found guilty.

46:36I take some small comfort in that, despite sort of looking around in despair at a lot of everything else.

46:44Andrew Mangan: Yeah, absolutely. I think people who are willing to be whistleblowers and speak truth to power in that way are invaluable. And this is vindication, I think, for him. I think as well, from a kind of Arsenal perspective, over the past few years, it's fair to say I haven't agreed with every decision the club has taken. But I think when it comes to Manchester City and when it comes to these charges, our club will be seen to have been on the right side of history in this. You know, we have taken the fight. I mean, led, I think, by Tim Lewis, really, in his time in the club, who went at City like a dog with a bone, frankly.

47:24Andrew Mangan: I think he is vindicated by this outcome too. But Arsenal have been pretty steadfast in their opposition to what they saw as cheating and what they suspected to be cheating. So I think as Arsenal fans, you know, that's certainly a positive that we can take too. Well, look, we'll see what we can wring out of the questions for part two. There might be a couple of questions to go at this from a different angle. And there's a few little bits and bobs from the international break that we can talk about as well. So what we'll do here is take a little break and we'll come back with your questions and some other stuff right after this.

48:37We'll see you next time. All your HCM needs. Start now at paylossity.com slash one. Hey y 'all, Kelly Clarkson here with Wayfair.

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49:47Welcome back to the ArseCast Extra. This is part two of the show where we answer the questions that you send to us on BlueSky at gunnablog.bsky.social and at ArseBlog.com. Also on the ArseBlog Discord chat server, which you get access to if you are an ArseBlog member on Patreon. And I do, just before we get into questions and the rest, want to give a shout out to Simon, who's our app developer. And we've got new versions of the Arseblog app out right now for iOS and for Android. Lots of new features, a really cool new match day tab where you can get stats and lineups. And you can go back and look at all the fixtures so far this season and get all the stats and stuff there.

50:29We'll have the live blog as usual. There's also Patreon integration. So if you're a Patreon member, you can link your Patreon account and you can listen to all the Patreon content within the Arseblog app as well. So you can download them now from the usual places, from the App Store and from the Google Play Store. So go get the new Arseblog app is what I'm saying. So there you go. Very nice.

50:52Andrew Mangan: Very nice. Well, here's a bit of a lighthearted question, Andrew, on the city situation. Okay. So Salty asked, if City players do leave the sinking pirate ship that their club badge must now become, who would you want Arsenal to try and get? And that was echoed by, whoop whoop is the sound of Solis, who says, say City get relegated and they have a fire sale. Which one player are you buying? Oh, I mean, this ties into all the, when are we going to buy Erling Haaland? In January or in the summer? Let me just get up there, squad. Man City squad.

51:36I mean, Haaland is the obvious one, isn't he? Really? Yeah, get him playing with Odegaard, his international teammate.

51:42Andrew Mangan: That's it, you know. That's it. All those assists. Anyone else? I mean, I think you'd have to look at Semenyo for me as well. For the left-hand side. Yeah. Yeah. He's very, very productive for them out on that flank. And of course, of course, Calvin Phillips is the midfield anchorman we've all been craving. Yeah, of course. Of course he is. I'm just going to flick through the rest of the squad. They have a goalkeeper called Geronimo.

52:22Geronimo Rulli, that's right. Yeah. I had a neighbour called Geronimo when I lived in Spain. Geronimo. Geronimo. Geronimo.

52:33Andrew Mangan: I think me, I do like, I must say, I know he's not the most popular man with Arsenal fans. I do like watching Cherki. I don't really see him as a Mikel Arteta player necessarily. It's not one I foresee happening, but it would be fun, I suspect. But yeah, Haaland. I mean, look, is there any chance of that happening if City go down? I mean, he's not going to hang around, is he? Why would he hang around? I read that they don't have relegation clauses in their contracts. Right. But I just don't think Erling Haaland is going to waste a year of his career or two years, depending on how far they get relegated, playing in League One or the Championship.

53:23Andrew Mangan: Yeah, I mean, I suspect it would precipitate a move to... Real Madrid. Real Madrid, yeah. That feels like the move, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But listen, I'd take him. I'd take him. Yeah, I think he could do a job for us, yeah. I'd be less worried about Kai Havertz's hamstring if he was in our squad right now, I'll admit. That is true. That is true. What about this for a question then? Because there were quite a few like this, and I did sort of wonder sort of more broadly what we're going to hear from people within football. Ringo Casey on the Discord says, I've seen some online chat about how Mikel Arteta was at Man City during this period.

54:03Do you think his reputation or integrity is in question? And then sort of, as I said, broadening it out, like it is going to be the first question asked of Antonio Raiola, right? When he prepares to face Manchester City, it's going to be asked of him. It's going to be asked of Mikel Arteta, of course, because of his connection with Man City and because of his relationship with Pep Guardiola. You imagine it's going to be a question for most Premier League managers to face because, well, listen, they're in the same league. And then, you know, what do you think the reaction is going to be from people who work within the game itself?

54:47Do they view it in the same way as we do as fans Or is this just part and parcel of what you have to deal with at the top level of the game?

54:57Andrew Mangan: Yeah, it's a really fascinating one. I think particularly for us with Mikel, because he was very much part of Man City in the relevant period as Pep's assistant. And then I think you come back to that question of who knew what. I think something people have to realise is the degree to which the kind of technical staff, the football staff inside these clubs are uninformed and unaware of a lot of the financial and regulatory landscape and issues. Like, because it's all quite new in football, most managers, coaches, and even sporting directors kind of see it as not their problem. You know, they're like, well, that's for the numbers, guys.

55:53Andrew Mangan: You know, they can deal with that. And I'm sure that Mikel, and to an extent, Pep, that was their attitude. We want these players, get us these players, do what you have to do to get it done. And we trust, rightly or wrongly, that you're doing it within the parameters.

56:17Evidently, they weren't. But I mean, this goes back as far as Mancini, right? Yeah. You know, so it's not like, I don't know, but if they did what they did for Mancini, I'm pretty sure they will have done similar for Pep, right? and the length of time that he was there and the relationships that he has had. Like maybe best case scenario is he looked the other way and he said to them, are you doing any financial jiggery pokery here? Whatever the Spanish for jiggery pokery is. And they said, no, Pep. And he said, are you sure? And they went, no, no, no, no, no. And he went, okay. Like went about his day and just believed everything that he was told.

57:07I've also got some magic beans. People want to buy them, you know?

57:12Andrew Mangan: Yeah. I mean, see, I, I must say from like my time in football, I find that very credible. Like I find that very plausible because the focus of a coach or a manager is so narrow and short term. It's like, I've got to win on Saturday. Now, look, I think that needs to change. If this regulatory framework is here to stay, I think people involved in transfer decisions, squad building, need to be educated on that. I think it creates a problem if they're not. But do I believe Mikel... That's a great question. do I think Mikel was aware that City were cheating?

58:08Andrew Mangan: I mean, what we do know about Mikel is he does think that winning is about exploiting every possible margin. And he probably thought, yeah, they're doing that on the finances. They're playing the margins. They're looking for every gain they can. Whether he would have been aware or approving of them actually operating outside the rules? I think that is a different question, really. But he's always been very reluctant to criticise the club in his time since he left. One presumes partly because of Pep and his kind of loyalty to him, but I think he's also grateful for the opportunity the club afforded him and his relationships there.

58:56Andrew Mangan: Do you think that changes now? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, maybe it changes, you know, when you finish second to Manchester City a couple of times and you feel like maybe he just accepts it, you know. This is the landscape in which we have to operate. And I'm not going to, you know, I'm not the guy to take down Manchester City or whatever. But I mean, there must have been times over the last two or three years when surely it must have occurred to him or it was a thought in his mind that not only am I competing against, you know, one of the best managers ever, who now I think, you know, rightly or wrongly has an asterisk to his name because of where he's had so much success and how that success has been.

59:48achieved. I think it's just inevitable that he has to be associated with that to an extent, but I can't imagine that there, there has never been a time when Mikel Arteta thought, Jesus, it would be a bit easier if, you know, they weren't doing what they were doing. Yeah. You know?

1:00:06Andrew Mangan: Yeah. And he's probably been told no once or twice at Arsenal, you know, on a financial front, which would have made him, aware of kind of the differences in the way the clubs operate. I also think he's probably not the right person to come out and tear Man City down because while he may be wholly innocent in the situation, he is associated. Yeah. Didn't he say something as well? Like, I have a lot of information or something. Remember there was a thing and it was put to Pep in a, in a press conference and and pep said well i don't know can't remember but it was like i'm not not clear what he's talking about there but maybe when he said he had all the information he sort of meant about how they operate on the pitch and what sort of tactics they use and and you know exploiting the sporting margins but maybe he meant something else as well um i don't know but yeah i like i so you know he is the figurehead of our club and i suppose ordinarily you'd want them to come out and tear Man City down.

1:01:18Andrew Mangan: But I think Mikel is so self-aware. I think he'll be wary of...

1:01:27Andrew Mangan: Hypocrisy is too strong, but of the sort of the inherent contradiction in saying that when he did partly profit from their success. This is going to be like injury news to Mikel Arteta in terms of, you know, when he's asked about it, He's going to be like, well, you know, we've got another press conference in the morning. We'll see what I think then, you know. Arteta bot, activate. Yeah. I mean, I think, is there like a reasonable case to be made that like he knows questions are going to be coming? will he be sitting down with the comms team with the legal team to sort of not uh give a sort of a stock answer but to really think about how he addresses that as you said based on the the connection that he's had there but also you know as a a manager at a premier league club what can you say or what should you say about another premier league club do you risk um i don't know not jeopardizing, but like if you start talking about how they should get this punishment and that punishment, it sort of sparks this huge debate.

1:02:41You know, is there something to be said for making sure that your answer is, if not rehearsed, but certainly well thought out?

1:02:53Andrew Mangan: I think so. And he's got people around him to help him with that. He doesn't say much by mistake, Mikel Arteta. in terms of kind of our club's point of view and perspective on it I would like to hear something I don't know if we will I suspect we won't but you know if it's not Mikel if he's not the right person I'd love to know what a chief executive Rich Garlick or an owner Josh Cronkrie I'd love to know what their take on this is who knows when we might or if we will get that but I'd be very very curious to hear

1:03:29Andrew Mangan: in terms of what we hear more generally in football I mean the first you know I saw I watched a bit of the England game last night and Ian Wright and Roy Keane were doing punditry for ITV and they were pretty damning

1:03:45Andrew Mangan: Tony Pulis says he feels wronged it's a headline on the BBC Man City I feel cheated Tony Pulis Tony Pulis' column Tony we found the main victims Stoke were denied many Premier League titles because of the cheating of Manchester City yeah well there was a 2011 FA Cup final which I believe is the crux of his argument but so we've heard from Tony Pulis that's the big one were Stoke in the FA Cup final apparently so really yeah FA Cup finals I can't remember that unfortunately there was a period where Stoke won quite a lot of football games. Well, we know all about it, unfortunately. Yeah. We still need justice for Stoke.

1:04:32Andrew Mangan: That's the thing. Manchester City won Stoke City. I don't remember that at all. Yeah. I think Man City can keep that trophy as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. They're absolutely the worst cheating bastards of all time, but Stoke, they can go fuck themselves. Yeah. Strick them everything, but don't let Stoke have that. Whatever you do. Poor Tony. I think, yeah, I'm really curious to see because managers are always, they're increasingly wary, aren't they? Of kind of wading into this sort of political mire and everything they say feels like they've got sort of one eye on their future employability. I mean, Enzo Maresca.

1:05:20Yeah. You know, he can't say that he was unaware because, you know, this has been going on for loads of years. And he was there too, wasn't he, under Pep for a while? Yeah.

1:05:35Andrew Mangan: Well, also, he was at Leicester, who have also been punished for breaches to financial rules. He's the connection. Maresca. Maresca's the guy we need to take down.

1:05:52Yeah, I mean, I don't know, Andrew,

1:05:56Andrew Mangan: and I'm so fascinated to see how this plays out. Yeah. I hope. The thing is, like, it's important to say, City aren't the only club who've broken financial rules. They are not. You know, we've seen it from others in the Premier League, Everton, Nottingham Forest, Chelsea.

1:06:17Andrew Mangan: I think I'm right, it's an Aston Villa broke the UEFA once. but it's all about the scale, the breadth, the unwillingness to cooperate. You know, that's what separates this and makes it so different. And of course the success that they've experienced as a consequence. But because of that fact that they're not alone and because probably many clubs are tiptoeing around these rules to an extent, or teetering on the brink, it wouldn't surprise me if there is a reticence to come out as strongly as you or I or your average fan might. Sure. Is there, you know, the league of managers, you know, the omerta of managers or anything like that in this as well, that they're sort of loath to criticise each other?

1:07:13Like every time a manager gets sacked, even when he's crap and has done a terrible job, they're always like, well, it's very sad, you know, when one of us loses a job, you know, it could happen to any of us at any point, you know, do you think anyone's going to come out and just sort of rip into them?

1:07:30Andrew Mangan: Yeah. Like, like the Ewoks celebrating as the Death Star explodes. Exactly. Yeah. Like imagine if we all went to Colneb in a couple of weeks time and Mikel Arteta is like, fuck those guys. That would be good. but yeah I have to say I don't I don't anticipate certainly don't anticipate that from him and I I'm not sure I think there is that kind of code of conduct and and and as I say I think managers I think their focus is sort of shockingly narrow I think that they I think Arsene Wenger was the great exception you know Arsene Wenger knew and understood the finances of his football club in a way that most Premier League managers don't get near don't get near and so I think that gives us a bit of a warped perception at times of how much managers actually care about these rules or even understand these rules I think they see it as an inconvenience predominantly

1:08:40Andrew Mangan: but that's why it's so critical that the executives and the people around them apply them and work to them I mean there was a question in the same ballpark or certainly close to it from Kieran E on the Discord who asks how will the city judgement damage perception as the best league in the world was there as big an impact on Serie A when Juventus got caught cheating and doping and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, whatever we've said about how we feel about it, I'm sure there are going to be people who are like, well, fuck, what a waste of my time following the Premier League was. I'm going to go do something else.

1:09:21There is some reputation management required here from the Premier League above and beyond whatever punishment they decide to hand out to City, right?

1:09:30Andrew Mangan: Yes, but I think the punishment is their best chance of managing their reputation here. Um, yes, it is damaging and it is comparable in my mind to a doping scandal. Uh, that's why I think Arsene's term was so apt. Um, yeah, it is really, really damaging. Uh, there's no getting away from that. And I think the only way of salvaging some credibility is to come down really hard on it. Yeah.

1:10:08Andrew Mangan: yeah we've done Mikau

1:10:13Andrew Mangan: yeah we've done that there's not much beyond there's not much beyond Manchester City questions which is understandable because of just what a big story it is I have one here and you sort of mentioned Kai Havertz and his hamstring so we can talk about that for a sec but also Jamar Salas on the Discord says, what did you make of Victor Jokeres's comments on his form? In case you hadn't seen, he said that he obviously needs to do better and I want to do better. So that's no problem. Dialogue with Mikel Arteta is good. I just try to do well when I get the chance and score some goals. So he scored a goal for Sweden against Romania, the winning goal, I think, for Sweden against Romania the other night.

1:10:52Hasn't played a great deal in the Premier League, but obviously may get a chance on the return depending how serious that Kai Havertz injury is. Do you think Jurian Timber had a word with his brother after that game?

1:11:05Andrew Mangan: I hope so. So do I. I hope so. Is he at Palace now? Did that happen? Yeah. Yeah, there was a Palace. I was watching Match of the Day last week, and it was, you know, the team was coming up. It was Tomiyasu and Timber in the Palace team that day. Wow. And Ketia up front. No, I don't think he was. I think he's injured. But, yeah, close. But yeah, it was a bad tackle, actually, from Quinton Timber, because he sort of caught him on the knee. And maybe in doing so, Jarrod the hamstring, I'm not quite sure. I think Havertz went down. He seemed to mouth the word hamstring to the physio when he came on.

1:11:50The German for hamstring is hamstring.

1:11:53Andrew Mangan: Hamstring. It's always interesting to see the language players use on the pitch. Is he just in a habit of using English on the pitch? They all say vamos when they score, whatever language they speak. That's true, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is true. But yeah, a bit of a blow, obviously. The first international, the first game of the Interlall, and one of our players and a key player, somebody we've talked about, is really, really important for this team this season, picks up an injury. I think he was only due to play two of the games anyway because of the way Jurgen Klopp set up his squad, you know, this kind of split squad thing that he has going on.

1:12:31So he was only going to play two. And maybe the extended interlouge isn't a bad thing for Havertz because by the time the Leeds game comes around, he'll be nicely recovered. But obviously we have to wait and see how serious that hamstring strain is, if that's what it is.

1:12:46Andrew Mangan: No, absolutely. And no, Michele won't want us to find out. So it may be minor, you know, he may be back in contention, but it's no bad thing, is it, to have Victor Jokeres among the goals? We didn't, you and I didn't really speak on air about the Carabao game at Ipswich because it was in midweek and then by the time Monday rolled around, we all had the Brighton defeat to talk about, which naturally took precedence. But I was really, really disappointed in his performance that night. I have to say, I thought he looked quite, what's the word? I thought he looked a bit demotivated. Undermotivated, I was going to say, yeah.

1:13:31Andrew Mangan: I just thought he didn't like a player fighting for his place necessarily. And that really worried me. Obviously what he's said now in international break assuages some of that. And maybe just being away from the club has given him a slightly different perspective. and obviously everyone feels better when they put the ball in the back of the net. It's interesting watching for Sweden. I think he does look good for Sweden and he plays in a front two with Isaac. And I think it is better for him actually to play in more like that too. And when I think about his best games for Arsenal, I think it has tended to be when we've had someone much closer to him, be that Kai Havertz or at times Ebreche Eze as well.

1:14:17Andrew Mangan: I think he benefits from that. You know, a lot of people who were defending him last season were saying, well, look how he attracts defenders. He's got, you know, two or three guys on him. But it doesn't enable him to do a great deal, frankly. Whereas when that marking is sort of diluted somewhat, I think he seems naturally to have a bit more success. I had a question related, which was basically from Danny Nick 8, who said, Morning, gents. If Kai's injury is something longer term, do you think Mikel would prefer to play Marino at centre-forward? Personally, I think he would, but he won't due to the optics of it and how it could ruin Jokeres' confidence.

1:15:02Andrew Mangan: I mean, if we are without Kai Havertz, let's say, for the Leeds game in a couple of weeks' time, what do you think Mikel will do? I think he'll pick Jokeres. I think he'll pick Jokeres for the Leeds game because I think that is, you know, he needs, if he's going to be without Kai Havertz, he needs to be able to get as much as possible out of Victor Jokeres. And I think if you have a home game against the team that he scored, I think he scored twice against them last season. We beat them 5-0. It was early in the season, so slightly different leads from the one Daniel Farke made a couple of changes, didn't he, in terms of how he set his team up and it was very effective in the second half of the season for them.

1:15:40So I think it's a... They're better now as well. Yeah, they do. Yeah, they do. But I think, you know, as a manager, you have to recognize that this is an opportunity for this player to build a bit of confidence and build a bit of momentum and strikers, as we know, thrive on that. So I would be... I'd be really, really worried for Victor Jokeres if Havertz was out and Mikel Moreno got the nod up top against Leeds. What I would also say, though, is that I do think there might be certain games when Arteta would play Marino up front in place of Jocarez because it just might be a slightly better tactical fit in terms of what we're trying to do in the game against that particular kind of opposition, you know?

1:16:32So, yeah, I don't think it would be a case, and maybe rightly so as well, because as we saw last season when Havertz was injured and was out for quite a while, it was pretty much all Jokeres and I think he struggled with that because it was too big a burden, particularly when it came right at the start of the season and he had only just arrived at the club and his preseason was truncated because of the ongoing thing with sporting, etc., etc. So I think being able to share the minutes around, if it's a case that it's Jokeres and Marino, I don't think it damages Jokeres to be on the bench or come off the bench a few times for certain games.

1:17:08But I think he really does need to start the Leeds game and play well and hopefully score goals because, you know, we have a lot of football to play between now and January. And I still don't necessarily expect Arsenal to do anything in January in terms of the transfer window. So, you know, we're looking at making sure we get the best out of this player. So I think, yeah, he's going to play against Leeds and I think he should play against Leeds. But like you, I hope we see, you know, a bit more of a front-footed Victor Jokeres than we did against Ipswich. Yeah.

1:17:41Andrew Mangan: The reality is they'll both, if Kai is out, they'll both play. We start against Leeds a run of six games in 16 days across three competitions. So they'll both play. And I think really Jokeres should and will get the nod for Leeds and how he fares there may determine who's number one and who's number two across the remainder of that period. And they'll both start matches. You know, I'm sure someone will start the home Champions League game against Lille or someone will play away at Fleetwood. But, you know, you want to be the guy who's picked for Bayern Munich away and Forrest away and Everton at home.

1:18:23Andrew Mangan: And there's a game at Anfield not too far away, 1st of November. You know, you want to be the guy who Mikel trusts on those big occasions. if Kai's fit it will be him if not I think it's quite a close battle actually between Mourinho and Jocarez at this moment yeah like if there's no Havertz I think you're looking at Leeds and Lille as two games where you want to start Jocarez and try and get him into some kind of form and rhythm and goal scoring confidence right then maybe you know if that works Forrest away can start him there but I kind of think that if there's no Havertz Marino versus Bayern Munich might be the way Mikel Arteta goes when he thinks about that kind of opposition you know yeah yeah and obviously played and had great success against them in the reverse fixture last season Marino so yeah it'll be interesting to see but I think I would be quite shocked actually it would be a sum statement if when we kick off against Leeds 12-30 if Fiocres isn't in that line line up, you know, as Havertz's replacement, that would be a surprise to me.

1:19:36It would be a surprise to me as well. And I think that's probably what we will see. I mean, beyond that, there's not a lot going on, James, is there?

1:19:44Andrew Mangan: No, I mean, obviously we had the news, I forget exactly when it broke, of Mikel Arteta agreeing a new contract. That was last week, yeah. Yeah, that's been kind of superseded since then, obviously, by all the City stuff. But I imagine we may get an announcement about that this week. Yeah, during the interlals seems like a decent time to do that, doesn't it? Yeah, this week or next week, actually, thinking, obviously, it's mad how long. It's four games, aren't there, for a good many nations. Yes, four games. Martin Odegaard, a couple of assists for Norway. Yeah. One for his soon-to-be teammate, Erling Haaland, to win the game there.

1:20:27Andrew Mangan: Yeah, but obviously when Manchester City are dissolved, we'll just be able to sign Haaland as a free agent. So he'll start against Leeds.

1:20:37Andrew Mangan: That'll be amazing. I'm looking forward to that. Also, if you are looking for a football fix this afternoon, there is a very big game in the WSL. Arsenal are, I think I'm right on saying, away at Chelsea. An unconvincing start to the season for Arsenal women, isn't it? So far, so... Yeah, already seven points off our friends Man City, albeit with the game in hand. But yeah, a positive result at Chelsea would do wonders for Arsenal's start to the season, that's for sure. Fingers crossed on that one. You can find all the news and the reports and everything else. Tim Stillman and the team will be bringing you that over on Arseblog News.

1:21:18So, I don't know, should we wrap it up and go about our respective Sundays? What do you think? Let's do that. And we're going to try and get in a waffle

1:21:26Andrew Mangan: for our Patreon members. Yes. So if you fancy a bit of that, waffle is the podcast we do for our Patreon members. We get questions and suggestions from our Patreon members and we talk about anything and everything except Arsenal and football. So if you want to get on board for that waffly nonsense, patreon.com forward slash arseblog. For now though, folks, take it easy. thanks so much for being here as always. Hope you enjoyed the show and we will catch you on the next one. Bye-bye.

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