Arsenal Women Arsecast 127: Mailbag and Finding the First South Asian Lioness

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1:34Hello and welcome to the Arsenal Women Arsecast on Arseblog.com with me your host Tim Stillman. Two-part episode today we're gonna do in the second part you're gonna hear me having a chat with Marva Creel. Marva has just fronted a documentary on Copa90 called Finding the First South Asian Lioness, which is a documentary that kind of looks into representation or lack thereof of South Asian girls and women in football and why we haven't seen a South Asian Lioness so far. And it's a really, really good documentary. And we're going to chat to Marva about that in the second half. But in the first half, we're going to do a little bit of a mailbag, might have a little bit of Chloe Kelly chat at the top.

2:21I'm here to do that as ever as our co-host Jamie Spanger. Jamie, how are you doing?

2:25Jamie: Tim, I'm good. I'm good. Honestly, it's been a little bit of a while now since club football's fizzled out. International football doesn't do it for me the way it does. I'm hoping the Euros kind of changes that around. So I'm excited to be talking about Arsenal. I'm excited to hear your chat with Marva as well because she's incredible. So that will be amazing. The work she does is incredible but yeah let's get into it yeah absolutely I thought before we put out some questions on Blue Sky and we've got some which we'll crack into but I think we should start I guess because some news broke yesterday around Chloe Kelly coming to Arsenal I don't think any huge surprises in there but report from David Ornstein about Chloe Kelly granting a period of exclusivity to Arsenal to try and get this deal done.

3:13The parties have been speaking since the Champions League final. Essentially, I think Chloe Kelly is 27. She hasn't signed a club contract since February 2022. And since then, she scored the winner in a Euros final and won the Champions League. So obviously, her value and her salary is going to go up quite a bit from that point, as it should. And at the same time, I think Arsenal are looking for value on their side as well. I can perhaps put a little bit more context around it, but the reports come out around her essentially saying to her representatives, only deal with Arsenal at the moment in time.

3:51Any kind of surprise on your part? Any surprise it's not done already? What did you make of that?

3:59Jamie: I don't think there's any surprises in terms of Chloe Kelly saying that to her representatives, Tim. I think it's almost fallen into place and it's very obvious that over the January window, Arsenal didn't really have any intention to go for Chloe Kelly until it kind of fell into their lap. And it does seem like one of those fairytale moments that happen in football where a player and a club just mix so, so well. And obviously there's a history there with Chloe Kelly and Arsenal, but her involvement in the squad and the way that Renee Slagers has already adapted her game in such a short period of time.

4:26Jamie: For a player, you're going to say, hey, I have a manager here that's able to identify my traits, my strengths. she can get as much out of me as possible. I've won a Champions League. For a player in a club, it just feels like it's a no-brainer. Either side, Arsenal want to keep Chloe Kelly. She's one for the fans. She's great to bring the energy up. She's got a kind of stat pack and an ability that is a lot, I think it's a lot broader than a lot of wingers end up being pigeonholed as. So for Arsenal, it's a no-brainer. For Chloe Kelly, you've just won a Champions League. If you want to play in England, you don't really want to play anywhere but Arsenal right now.

4:56Jamie: So, yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense to me, and I'm very, very happy to hear it. However, I won't be as happy until the pen is on the paper. Yeah, I think we'd kind of said all along in our reporting it might not be like an absolutely straightforward negotiation just because obviously Chloe is at the absolute ceiling of her value. This is, you know, three-year contract. They're negotiating. That's going to take her to the age of 30. This is the big contract of her career. And, you know, she's got a bit of leverage, not just because of what she's done in the last three years, but what she's done on loan at Arsenal.

5:28She's broken into the team. She's become a really important player. And that gives her kind of leverage as well. I'd say in terms of the period of exclusivity, I'm not sure I could be wrong here. I'm not sure that's anything you document at all. I'm not sure you sign anything to do that. So I'm not sure really what period of exclusivity means beyond don't really negotiate with anyone else. and my understanding, and this could be wrong because there might be stuff I don't know. I've never heard that there's any other club that's had serious conversations about this. Of course, there'd be interest.

6:05There'd be people keeping tabs on it. But I kind of think the period of exclusivity has been happening anyway. And essentially, the clock is ticking a little bit on this because England fly out to Switzerland on the 30th of June, which is also the day Chloe's Manchester City contract ends. So it has to really be done by then. I know in the World Cup in 2023, when we were negotiating the Russo deal, Serena Viegman was very clear. This all has to be done before we get on the plane. So I imagine it's the same this time. So like on one hand, I think also sometimes you've got to look at where information comes from.

6:42And, you know, this was a report from David Ornstein. And obviously, David is the biggest and the best in the business in terms of transfers. that means he has the biggest audience and rightfully so because of the work he's done over many many years and usually when a story goes to a source maybe quote-unquote outside of the kind of the more established kind of women's football package it's usually because someone wants it there essentially and they want it and you go to David because you're going to get the biggest audience for it so I'd imagine this has come from the agent and I imagine it's a little bit I don't know that for sure, but I imagine it's a little bit maybe trying to put some pressure on Arsenal.

7:23But at the same time, saying that there's a period of exclusivity, maybe take some leverage away. Because I think my understanding has always been that essentially for another club to do this deal, not impossible, but it would all have to happen very, very quickly, I think, at this point. So, you know, I think there's a little bit of upping of the ante. But to be honest, I think this is just like a pretty normal negotiation and both sides searching for the best deal. And I suspect that they'll reach a compromise and that's all kind of good process, really. But, you know, and I guess since the last time we spoke, Jamie, one transfer story we did break.

8:03And I'll stress this as well in our own transfer reporting. No one leaks stuff to us, right? no one comes to ask blog news because they want information out there. We wheedle it. We look for it very, very hard. But we were able to report on interest in Taylor Hines at the end of her Liverpool contract at the end of this month. What do you make of that link as well? I say that link. I'm the one that made that link. We make that link. But, you know, what do you think about the club's interest in that player?

8:32Jamie: Yeah, look, I think there's a few things about Taylor Hines as a footballer because I really do. She does impress me, obviously. There's an Arsenal tie there. it does feel like there's a lot of connection in these kind of players jumping back to Arsenal. However, as a footballer, I think in isolation, she's very good. She's defensively very sound. Her distribution is very good and the way she works up her line is very good. But she is a left back. And I think that there is a period of concern there because there was a time where Emily Fox came to Arsenal and me, myself as well, were saying she's played left back before as well.

9:02Jamie: She can play both. These footballers aren't usually as versatile as we want them to be. And I think if Arsenal had gone in for someone like Jenna Niswonger in January, brought her to the club, you've got a very young and very capable backup there for Katie McCabe. So bringing in Taylor Hines, I think it's maybe a quicker fix than I'm keen on, just because it's not really going to provide a fix for Emily Fox. If Emily Fox needs rest, Katie McCabe goes to the right. Either Niswonger or Hines comes in at left back. I don't want Taylor Hines playing at right back. So it feels like there's a bit of a, there's a solution there.

9:34Jamie: It's a player that we know. And I think a lot of fans get either excited or very pessimistic about transfer news like this, because to me, a transfer like this looks, OK, it's a great player that's proved herself at a WSL club. She's been very good for Liverpool. For Taylor Hines, I think that there's a project at Liverpool right now where it isn't going as far as it should be, especially with the success of the men's team. So if I'm a capable footballer who I honestly think England have overlooked Taylor Hines and now she's like jumped her loyalty to another country. So that was a miss. But I think if you're looking at a player like that and you're looking at the project and the lack of intent and care in the Liverpool side, I can understand why a player like her would want to leave.

10:12Jamie: I think Taylor Hines is too good to sit on a bench at a club and I don't think she would get playing time at Arsenal. I don't think she's a good fix to come behind Emily Fox if it's that right back cover that we're looking at. So, yeah, look, I'm a bit spread open. I think we've seen Arsenal's business look a lot like this is what we know, so we're going to go for what we know rather than let's go find someone that's going to fit the profile of the player that we need. So I'm taunting him because at the same time, I think she's an excellent player. I'd probably play her over Nicewonger in a lot of games if Katie McCabe's not there.

10:39Jamie: However, she's not really exactly what Arsenal need in order to be sure that, hey, if Emily Fox gets injured for a long period of time, you have a right back there to play for her. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I've seen that kind of expressed a lot as well. And yeah, we'll see on that. But I mean, Liverpool still haven't announced a manager at this stage. So, yeah, and she's not the only contract, key contract coming up at the end of the month. I guess other news that has broken as well since the last time we recorded, and this is a segue into the questions, because we do have a question on it, is around the expansion of the WSL.

11:16So the WSL will go to 14 teams from 26-27, which means that next season, the top two from the championship will come up and we'll have a playoff between the bottom of the WSL and third in the championship WSL 2, as it's known again now, somewhat confusingly. So we're getting our league expansion. We're not getting the fairly dreaded and widely criticised no relegation. But what about this then? This question's from Liam, who's at JesusPlaysBase. That's news to me, by the way. Do you think expanding the WSL next season will make the league more competitive or just bring up more squads that aren't to the level?

12:02I want to believe investment across the board is going to increase with WSL2 going fully pro. And I think that's something that's perhaps missed a little bit, not by the reporting, but in the kind of general public perception of this WSL2 going fully pro. And I think that's why we've seen a couple of clubs get a bit nervous about that and drop out. Yeah. And the question finishes, Blackburn and Reading suggest not all teams are willing. So, yeah, what impact do you think the expansion will have on the WSL? Do you think we'll just get a couple more poor teams or do you think it will bring the overall level up?

12:39Jamie: I think if we're looking at it, there's a short-term and a long-term effect. This is all kind of in my wildest dreams. But in a short-term effect, I think we can look at the WSL, the top flight in isolation and say it still is providing, and it was going to have to happen to expand the league. This was going to have to happen. It's a buffer season. but it's still providing those lower of the table teams a bit of a respite in order to be like we finished last we play a WSL 2 team we can put all our eggs in one basket to just win that playoff remain in the top flight and then you've got teams 11th 10th 9th these Leicester cities these Tottenham's that aren't really going to invest in their women's team and I think you're providing a safe haven for them to say okay there's another buffer year just get through one more buffer year in the WSL And that is my concern because that playoff is, look, it's not going to go in the favour of the WSL 2 team.

13:26Jamie: I think the only example we've seen of a WSL side suffering or struggling against a second flight is Tottenham have played Charlton two seasons in a row and only won by one goal. They've both been terrible performances. Charlton were the better team, right? So there's a little bit of history. But then you look at West Ham flattened London City Lionesses. You look at West Ham flattened Portsmouth. Like there's a lot of teams and there's a massive gulf there. So I am worried that, okay, these WSL teams themselves, it's still not going to push them. It's still not going to kick them up the bum and say, you need to invest.

13:57Jamie: You need to, there's jeopardy. There's no jeopardy right now. However, for the WSL too, I think there is going to be a significant increase in the quality because of this move. And I hope that there is because, right, you've got 12 teams now. The only issue is Sheffield United because you can tell that they've been thrown a lifeline again. They don't really care and invest into their women's side. they've been given another spot in the WSL too like that was going to happen it had to happen in my opinion because the 11 team season last season was really really poor in the championship it was like it was hard to watch you had not all teams playing on the final day it was just a bit of a mess and I think the WPLL or the WSLF whatever they're called now had to had to aid that however you've got Nottingham Forest and Ipswich Town who are both really put forward a statement of intent in terms of their women's sides you've got two big clubs especially in the men's game with Nottingham Forest coming into the championship, right?

14:47Jamie: These teams, they're bigger names in the men's side, and now they've got this carrot dangling in front of them saying there's potentially three promotion spots to go to the top flight. You've got an extra boost. And I think what we've seen in the championship the last few seasons is they almost take their women's side a lot more seriously than the top half of the table, not the Blackbirds, not the Reddings, not the Sheffields, but the top half of the table almost take their women's teams more seriously than the teams in the WSL do. They've just kind of been there because of sheer luck in history.

15:14Jamie: So I'm hoping that improves. And then when we come to 2026, 27, when there is this expansion with 14 teams, we will see more capable championship teams coming up. I think because there's more clubs as well, we'll then see like a bit more of a spread of talent because teams and players that are maybe on the edge of a West Ham squad, they're not going to have to go down to Birmingham City, right? There's going to be teams in the WSL that they can play for. So I'm hoping there's a bit of a spread of talent, there's a spread of investment. But I think there's still a lack of jeopardy for the WSL teams And I hope that that improves as obviously this buffer year passes.

15:45Jamie: I think that it will. But more teams does mean less relegation spots in terms of a ratio. So the teams like Tottenham and Leicester that don't really seem to care a lot. I feel bad saying that about Leicester because they were really injury riddled last season. Basically Tottenham's and maybe your Aston Villa's as well that don't care. There's a lack of jeopardy and it's given them a buffer year. However, hopefully this means you've got one year to sort your stuff out before it turns into 14 teams. So I'm hoping it's great for the championship. I think it will be. Sorry for the WSL too. I'm just a bit worried about the bottom of the table.

16:15Yeah, I think for the WSL in one respect, completely unavoidably, as you say, it's kind of bad because with LCL coming up, this is the first time in a few years where the newly promoted, like the last three years in truth, it's been, well, they're going to go back down. Even if LCL sign no one from here, I don't think they'll go down. I think they're probably like a lower mid-table WSL team, and I'm sure they'll add on top of that. So for the first time, potentially you do have a bit more jeopardy around that relegation spot, which might have gone. I think though long-term, like you said about WSL too, a lot of this centres around the finances that the respective teams have available.

16:59I worry about Leicester because Leicester are not in a good financial spot, the whole club. I think their men's team is looking at a points deduction in the championship next season for financial reasons. So how much are they going to invest? But then you look at the WSL2, Newcastle. If Newcastle don't get up this season, I think they've gone wrong. Birmingham, who just missed out and they've got new investment behind them. Their men's team got promoted. Charlton's men's team got promoted to the championship this year, so they've potentially got a little bit more budget as well. So I think there's some teams who can really go for it and really see that.

17:37I think you're right in terms of WSL relegation. We've perhaps been robbed. I mean, no one will want to finish bottom and go to that playoff, but we've perhaps been robbed a potentially really good relegation scrap. But yeah, interesting times. I think it had to happen. I remember when the WSL was eight teams. Generally, it's taken a couple of years. When it went from eight to 10 and then 10 to 12 and all of that, it tends to take a couple of years. I think this will happen quite quickly, though. Do you have a question for me?

18:09Jamie: I do. This is back to Arsenal. We've inevitably gotten a pile of transfer window questions, Tim, but this is a bit of a more broad one. It's from Madeline Key. Is there any part of you that is worried that the Champions League win will paper over any cracks regarding transfers, etc. Or do you think it won't have any effect? So just the general intent, I guess, Tim. Yeah, I don't think it will have any effect, basically. Kind of, by the way, I think clubs tend to make their recruitment plans kind of in advance. And I don't think winning the Champions, like winning, I don't think winning one game, essentially.

18:45I know it means you win the Champions League, but winning like the result of one game, It won't be the case that if we beat Barcelona, we'll do this, and if we lose to them, we'll do this. I think quite strongly it doesn't really change anything. And actually the age profile of the squad makes a lot of change quite necessary as well. And I think there are just quite obvious places anyway or gaps to fill. I think the areas where Arsenal need to get stronger, get younger are reasonably obvious and probably not really governed by the Champions League win if the average age of the squad was 24 or 25 maybe but there's going to have to be some churn either way so I don't really worry about that too much and I think obviously there's the link with Taylor Hines which I can tell you definitely predates the Champions League final by quite a distance.

19:46Obviously, they were always going to want to keep Chloe Kelly. I think there is some stuff happening around another winger as well. I don't think anything's close, but I think there's potentially some action happening there. But I'll have to see how that all shakes out. So I don't think it makes any difference, really. I think the difference it maybe makes is maybe just makes Arsenal a little bit more attractive to the players they do want. Otherwise, I don't think it changes a lot. How about this one then? Yeah, let's have a Euros-themed question. This is from at PDX Gunner. Aside from the locked-in starters, are there any particular Arsenal players that you'll be paying closer attention to at the Euros as we look to next season?

20:37And Vicky P is an obvious one to me. What about you? Who are you going to be looking at closely at the Euros this summer?

20:45Jamie: It's hard when you say like getting rid of locked-in starters because there's not a lot of like European, I guess, depth that is going to be there. Obviously, Rosa Kofadji is not going to be at the Euros. A lot of our depth isn't in Europe. So for me, it's going to be Daphne van Domselaar. And I know that this is silly because she is a locked-in starter. She's one of our best players. But I think that this is going to be a really big test and a massive tournament for someone of her age. but of someone of her talent, the Netherlands do not have an easy road. Like that group, and obviously all England fans know that that group is going to be hard, obviously with France.

21:16Jamie: Wales are in there, England and the Netherlands. So I think she's going to play a big part in this campaign for the Dutch because they have been shaky. This last international break, the Nations League fixtures, they were not great. Like they leaked, I think it was five goals to Germany. They then drew to Scotland. Like the Netherlands are not looking as good as they should look and as good as they did look maybe six months ago. So Rose Schlellen wrote a really good piece for the halfway line on that and what's going wrong for that squad. And I think Daphne van Domsala plays a massive role because of that.

21:45Jamie: Defensively, they don't look as sound as they do. The coach is kind of playing the players in the wrong areas. So for me, Daphne van Domsala needs to be at her best. And I remember watching, I think it was the Nations League fixtures, England paid the Netherlands away and she was like Superman. This was before she was at Arsenal. She was like injected with steroids that game. So I think she can lift a team. We've seen that as Arsenal fans. we've seen that the difference that she makes so for me it's Daphne van Domsala I think she's going to have a big tournament but I do worry that they may not make it out of group stages because France I don't know if you've seen they're on like army camps right now they're doing like boot camps they're in the water like all tangled up together it's nuts and I think that England fans need to calm down because they'll be okay but yeah the Dutch and Daphne is who I've got my eye on I'll have a nibble on this one also like you say there's I think yeah Victoria Plover from the Netherlands and that could be very useful for Arsenal, her playing for them.

22:35I think the player actually my eye on is probably Lea Valti, actually, because obviously for her, this is massive, captaining Switzerland at home Euros. Obviously, as a home nation, they've got a better chance to qualify from their group than they'd usually have because they go into top seeding and they play their games at home in front of a home crowd. So I always think a tournament needs a home nation to get out of the group at a minimum. And just for Leah, just for Wally, you know, this is massive for her career, I think. I wouldn't be too surprised if she calls it a day internationally after this.

23:15And I just really hope that, you know, I really hope that this tournament delivers like a big moment for her or getting out of the group. So I think she really deserves that. I think she's been, obviously she's been a massive part of Arsenal over the last few years and one of the best signings we've made in the last decade. But, you know, for Swiss football, she's been the real flag bearer, I think, with Ramona Backman. And obviously really sad news about Ramona Backman being out of the tournament now, which just feels really unjust. So, you know, Leo Valti captaining her nation at a home tournament, I really hope that delivers for her.

23:53I think she and her career deserves that. Do you have a question for me?

23:57Jamie: I do. This one's also a bit Euros-focused, but looking ahead a bit more, Tim. It says, it's from Aiden, Aiden News 12. Do you think Michelle Adjumang will be in the squad next season or loaned out again? Or is it dependent on how she performs at the Euros? She looks exactly like the type of player we need with her pace and power. So I really don't want to see another Geo-Katrine-Cool situation develop with her. Yeah, I think this is fascinating as well. I think it's probably dependent on the Euros because otherwise I think if she was definitely, definitely, definitely going out on loan, I suspect we might have heard something about that by now because it would have to be done really before the Euros.

24:38So I suspect they're going to have a look at the Euros, see what happens there and maybe talk to her afterwards. I'm speculating there. However, I kind of think, I think if she gets game time in the Euros and makes a big impact, scores a couple of goals or something, then maybe that just forces a situation where a young player is just like, I'm here, accommodate me, you know? and that does happen sometimes. Sometimes a young player has a I am here moment and you can't ignore it. I'm still not sure how much game time she'll get at the Euros. To be honest, I still suspect that probably the best path is another WSL loan.

25:20Let Steiner have one more year and then maybe this time next year, that situation comes to a head and there's a very clear space for her. I suspect that would probably be the best way forward, to be honest. And also at Brighton, I think it was more towards the end. Once she got that England goal, I think things took off for her. So over the course of the whole season at Brighton, she was a little bit in and out. I still think a very good loan spell, but it's not like the whole season she was really knocking the goals in. So I suspect the best way forward is probably another WSL loan, maybe like negotiating a new contract with a, I don't know, say like here's a three-year deal, go on loan for the first year, come back, you know, Steena might be gone then and then there's a real spot for you.

26:13That's all speculation on my part. I suspect that's the way it might go unless she really becomes a star at the Euros and enforces the situation, which does happen sometimes. I am going to ask this one to you. Where is it? From Helen M at HXM82. The five competitions we're in next season and with the squad depth we have, what trophies need to be won for it to be considered a successful season? Is it too much to ask for the quintuple? Imagine being able to sing the only in the land for that. Actually, the quadruple season, Arsenal did win six trophies that year because they won the charity shield and there was another cup competition that they also won.

26:57So they have actually won six trophies in the seasons in 2006-7, so they won't be able to top that. But what do you reckon? I think this is a fascinating question because Arsenal have done something weird by winning the Champions League, having not won the league for six years. We've spoken about this before. That makes things a bit odd. So what do you reckon a successful season looks like next year?

27:20Jamie: Tim, this is my least favourite question. I hate this question. That's why I asked you before you could ask me. I just hate being the one to answer it. Look, obviously, I think if Arsenal go into the five-trophy season next season and not win a trophy, it's going to be a bit of a failure just because they've established themselves in Europe now, right? For the last 10 years, it's been a very big rollercoaster and we've come into this Emma Hazier of Chelsea dominating the league. Arsenal are getting some league cups. There's been a league in there as well, but it's not been good domestically, right?

27:52Jamie: And now we're in a weird, weird situation where we've won the Champions League. So immediately the expectation rises so high and it's not really been that high for Arsenal. There's always been, okay, you're underperforming, but it's not been you need to win trophies because you won so many last season. We've not had that situation. So it's an odd one, right? Because if you look at Chelsea, Chelsea are going into next season and saying they need to win the Champions League. Like with this squad that they have now, they need to win the Champions League because they've dominated domestically. For Arsenal, it's kind of you need to underperform what you've done in the Champions League and make impact on the domestic stage.

28:22Jamie: I'm a little bit worried though, Tim, because there is a situation we have after Christmas with this FIFA Champions Cup. Then there's the Asian Cup. We lose all our AFC players. They go away. So there's a significant cut considering the fact that like an eighth of our squad is Australian. And there's a lot of depth there that we're missing. So there's a bit of a worry because when that March period, the Asian Cup goes from March 1st to March 21st. In that period, you've got like FA Cup rounds. You've got the Conti Cup. sorry, the Subway League Cup final, you've got Champions League rounds. Like there's a lot of, and you're at basically the tail end of the league.

28:54Jamie: So it's about depth for me. Like I need, like Arsenal need to look at this and I need to see like a significant assessment of the fact that it's a 12-month plan. It's not just up until Christmas. There needs to be a continuity plan looking into this fall season because you're going to lose players. You're going to lose depth. Arsenal have been so lucky with injuries this year and that helped in the Champions League campaign. If a few get injured, if you go off to the Asian Cup, you've got five tournaments to deal with. So for me, a successful season needs to be starting the league better because it was really frustrating this season when Rene came in and closed the gap on Chelsea with performing so well, winning league games, and it was those starting league games that really hurt us.

29:32Jamie: That was frustrating. Arsenal need to get better at starting seasons. The season before, we lost to Liverpool on the opening day. This season, it was Man City, Everton and Chelsea. It's just about starting stronger because the biggest question, And this goes into, I'm kind of sidebarring, but the biggest question I have of Rene and the squad this season, we spoke about this on the last episode, that season awards, is how can this squad manage being in four competitions and winning silverware? Because we were in a very like, it's almost a privileged situation where we didn't have the FA Cup to worry about.

30:00Jamie: We didn't have the league to worry about. We just had the Champions League final to worry about. So Rene could throw all her eggs in one basket. Arsenal had this fairytale narrative behind them where they were on a road of momentum. You don't have that next season. You have to start from the start. You need to go into this season and just figure it out from a football point of view. You don't have the fairy tale anymore. So I think they can do it, but it's about depth. So for me, it's all about the league. I just want to see Arsenal contest in the league. I want to see Arsenal be down to the final day, either winning that league or really, really narrowly losing out on the final day, because Chelsea are going to be just as good as they are this year.

30:30Jamie: Let's be honest. I do. I say this every season, but I do expect City to be back. So yeah, for me, I hope there is another domestic cup in there. I think that there will be. the Champions League again, like you want to put in a good campaign. I'm excited about this new format. I enjoyed watching it on the men's side, but it's the league. Arsenal need to be winning the WSL. I'm over it. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of think the domestic cups almost take care of themselves really as much. I want to go back to Wembley. You know, it'd be 10 years since we won the FA Cup, but yeah, it's the league. I, you know, I interviewed Emma Byrne years ago before, I think the 2013 FA Cup final and Arsenal had lost it in 2012 and she said to me, it's our trophy and we want it back.

31:15And that's how I feel about the WSL. Do you have a question for me?

31:21Jamie: I do. This is from at NDMW. Even as Champions League winners, to compete domestically with Chelsea, we arguably need to power up our squad. So manifesting that we come out of the Euros with a clean bill of health, how many of those who started in Lisbon do you think are likely to keep their starting place in the first WSL game next season? Go on. So I, first of all, I think as we've discussed before, the true mark of progress and being able to compete on as many fronts as possible is going to be that we don't, we don't have the starting 11 anymore. You know, in the buildup to the Champions League final, we were saying, weren't we it will be the team and everyone knew who that was and I think really we've got to get to a state you're always going to have positions in an elite team that are on lock like no one is taking Emily Fox's right back spot um I don't think anyone's taking Russo's center forward spot you know like I think you know those those are reasonably locked down no one's cut no one's taking Leah Williamson's place you know those are going to be pretty locked down but I think other than that there has to be much more rotation um you know particularly in in the wide areas and you know i'm pretty certain we're going to sign you know including chloe kelly two wide players this summer so that we we finally go into a season with four um which we don't seem to have done for a little while but i think those midfield spots are going to have to become more fluid we do have the depth and the personnel there to do that i'm really interested in what happens to the number 10 spot because it's really only Frida there at the moment Rosa I'm not sure I I'm not sure how ankle surgery changes things for her certainly um you know at the end of last season I think the plan was for her to go out on loan I don't know I don't know I don't think this surgery is significant I don't think it should keep her out of pre-season so you know I assume that's still the case that she'll probably go out on loan anyway um so there needs to be some level of reinforcement there so like Frida hasn't really had a lot of competition for her spot I think that's going to have to change you know Kim's already a player that in the first kind of two thirds of the season we did manage um we managed a lot and I think that's going to have to continue as well you know I don't think we're going to be able to play Mariana every single game this season So, you know, I guess I'd say I don't think anyone's coming for Daphna's spot.

33:57I don't think anyone's coming for Emily Fox, Leah Williamson, Russo. And like Mariana's place in the starting 11 is going to be pretty clear. I think it just depends whereabouts that is. But I think all the others, like even Katie, who I think has been, you know, she's always, and I think really rightfully up there in terms of minutes played every single season. but Jenna Nyswong is there. Taylor Hines is probably going to be there as well. There should be room to at least rotate, even if no one's going to take her absolute first-choice spot. There's got to be time and consideration for rotation there because the personnel exists to do it.

34:43I think that's really interesting for me. The wide player situation I'm really comfortable with because I think we're going to go in with four and I think they will kind of rotate relatively easily. I think like Mead, Kelly, Ford, Plus and Other, I think there's no concerns there and we should be able to chop and change those reasonably easily. So yeah, I think really other than the absolute lock players, I think everything else should really be in the conversation. If it's not, we're not going to be able to challenge for five different trophies, especially off the back of a tournament summer for most of our European players.

35:28What about this one then? I think we've answered that from biased Arsenal Chicago stars. How about, okay, we're talking about five competitions because there's the FIFA Women's Champions Cup at the end of January. And this one's from Nick's Clip 72. How do you think Arsenal will regard the FIFA Women's Champions Cup? There's prestige, the first name on a trophy that could go on to become very coveted. We could win something in the first week of February. B, commercial opportunity, build the fan base, get a bit of prize money. We still don't know where it's going to be based. Suspect it won't be in Europe.

36:07C, developmental, rest the starters, take young or less played players for experience. So it's only two games, it must be said. But how do you think Arsenal will approach the FIFA Women's Champions Cup?

36:22Jamie: It's a hard one, isn't it, when it's like the first time it's happened? Look, I think that we can't really look at it now and say this is what they'll do because I think it'll change when circumstances change come Christmas. Like let's say there's a league exit in the Champions League, like manifest that not to happen. However, obviously the WSL, you've got the two league cups that will hopefully still will still be in both of them by then. So I think that it will be assessed in terms of like it's all circumstantial, right? Like what's the fitness of the squad like? What's the fixture list like?

36:52Jamie: If we have Chelsea and Man City in February like we did this season, it's going to be a bit different, right? How they kind of approach this cup that doesn't necessarily matter, but it still is a bit of a statement. I think Arsenal love a commercial opportunity. We've seen that, especially with the women's side. I do expect there to be like a lot of marketing and like hype around it. It's cool. It's a cool thing to play in the first one. You've won the Champions League. You're going in there. You're representing Europe. It's a really good opportunity. But I think that Arsenal and especially Renee Slagers, when you look at the manager being probably the least marketing focused person, leader football club in Europe right now, she does not care about any of that.

37:27Jamie: I think that if her priorities are there, they will be set on the league. They'll be set on the Champions League. So I think it's going to depend on the circumstances of the fixture list, who's yet to come, when those knockout fixtures are going to be played in the Champions League and who against, because you can't really say now. Let's say it's like maybe we've got, I don't know, West Ham, Villa, Leicester City in the league. It might be a bit different because it's going to be a cool opportunity. I also think it gives the players a good opportunity because that winter break is far too long.

37:55Jamie: Like it's a lot of time without football. And then you kind of get into the deep end straight off the back. there's the FA Cup, then there's the league, the Champions League starts to come up. So it does break it up for Arsenal in the way that they will get to have a little bit more continuity. There's going to have to be some shuffling around with the WSL as well. So yeah, it's circumstantial. I don't think they'll throw it in the bin because it's an exciting thing. You're playing in the first one, you're representing England, like you're representing Europe. I think that the club will take it seriously, but I don't see the manager throwing all her eggs in one basket for a trophy like that when she's got four others to deal with.

38:26No, like if Arsenal get to the fight, if they win their semi-final, which they probably should. Likely they'll play NWSL team in the final, which would be really exciting for a start. But it means it would be against a really good team, basically. So given it's two games, I can't see anything other than Arsenal taking it pretty seriously. Should we do one more each?

38:52Jamie: Yes, let's do it. I've got one from AWFC322112. We talk about the midfield all the time, Tim, but I'm throwing you another one. What are your thoughts on the midfield succession plan? We've got players like Pilova, Cooney Cross, Mornham, etc., which is a good call, but personally feel like we don't have a succession plan for the six. As some don't view Kyra Cooney Cross as a six, is this something the club will address? Reiterate this for me, Tim. Yeah, I'm not aware of any links at the moment, which is not to say there aren't. It's just I don't know. So I agree that we don't really have like a specialist six there.

39:32But then since Jonas came, we haven't really played like that. We've played with the double pivot ever since Jonas arrived and it was shared between Leo Volting and Kim Little, essentially. So, you know, we've talked about this a lot, but do we go back to that? Do we go and buy a specialist six? and there was quite long-standing interest in Kira Walsh, do we go and do that and have a six and two eights or do we stick with the double pivot? I kind of think everything Renee's done so far has been really built on fluidity. It almost did become a six and two eights really when Mariana moved into that position because you wouldn't say she's a six really.

40:19like she can run back and she tackles, but really most of her work's kind of done higher up. So, and, you know, obviously we can't rely on Kim to do that forever. Unfortunately, with Wally as well, I believe she gave an interview a couple of weeks ago in Switzerland and she said like she's managing pain in her knee. And I believe she kind of said that that's probably going to be for the rest of her career. Now that's just going to be a fact of life for her. So I think you on the last podcast might have made the Jorginho comparison, which I really like, actually. So I do think that Arsenal should go and buy a proper six this summer because I'd like to see us move more to that kind of six and two eights.

41:07And then maybe you've got Mariana and Frida, you know, and then I think that fits Pelova in nicely. I think that fits Cooney Cross in nicely. I think that model just fits the players we have as well, to be honest. And I think it would just be quite a lot of pretty unnecessary work if we all of a sudden said, no, no, no, actually, there's no space for Plova. There's no space for Cooney Cross and pull it all down. Like, I kind of think we should work with the talent we have a little bit. So I'd love to see a six come in. I think that should be among the priorities. I honestly don't know whether it is, though, and what things will look like at the beginning of next season.

41:46I think that's one of the things I'm most intrigued about. I'm going to end with this one because I think this is a really lovely, light and fluffy question to finish with. And it's from at newsalonsau.w.f.c. Which scene from the Champions League final, including celebrations, will stay with you forever and ever? I have at least five or six. I think we should both have a go at this. So what are the particular images that you think will still like pop into your head in like 40 years time?

42:20Jamie: Can I name five or six? One of my favourite ones was when Kim Little and Leah Volte like ran and lifted the trophy to the crowd. I think that was amazing because so much doubt has been thrown around them, especially Kim Little over recent years in terms of longevity of her career. And that just felt like a special moment because those are two players especially Kim but Leah Valti's impact on Arsenal needs to be like welcomed and loved as much as it possibly can as well that was a moment two service women of the club that have done so much for it and then also I just loved when Renee was with the trophy and a little boy and like they were standing there for a little while and he kept kind of interrupting the photos Arsenal were trying to get a photo with just her and the trophy and he was interrupting it I think it just kind of sums up what this club is right now under Renee Slagers it's family it's love it's it's just everything I loved when every player was kind of going to their national team groups and getting the photos.

43:10Jamie: It's just, it's nice to see how many like groups there are in the Arsenal squad right now, although there needs to be a bit more. But yeah, there was a lot of moments, but the celebrations were just incredible. Yeah, I think a couple will stick with me. You know, like Leah Williamson kind of collapsing at the end. And she said afterwards that the first thing she wanted to do was like she got, she was going to get up because she wanted to look for Kim. and then all of a sudden Kim's just there and Leo Valti. But I think from the actual game, the Caitlin Ford block from the Rolf across, I think that's the image I think that will live with me the most because I think that epitomised the performance.

43:47But also when you see that from behind, so not the camera that's – there's a really good angle of it like there's a camera right in front as she blocks that cross and then celebrates it like a goal. But when you watch it from the high angle from behind, what's quite funny and i only just realized this a couple of days ago is at the exact moment caitlin ford like punches the air rolfer falls over and so from behind with the perspective it looks a bit like caitlin has like slapped her to the floor at the same time i'd urge people to go back and look at that high angle like it's just it's just the timing of it is absolutely perfect um but yeah that one will live with me as well and I think there's um Akram did that that brilliant um which I know everyone's seen and probably watched and cried to 20 30 times but the brilliant kind of compilation set to paradise by Coldplay and there's like a little image in there of I think Russo and Pilova uh with their arms around each other like looking at their families in the crowd like just crying their eyes out and uh yeah I think that one sticks with me as well thanks to uh a really exceptional compilation, it must be said.

44:59So, yeah, I thought, you know, we hadn't talked about Arsenal being Champions of Europe and winning the Champions League enough and we should keep talking about it to make sure we keep the memory alive and keep those endorphins going. But, Jamie, thanks so much.

45:12Jamie: Thank you, Tim. Arsenal Champions of Europe, if anyone didn't realise, we did win the Champions League. Yeah, and I'd really like to commend Arsenal fans on social media as well for being exactly as annoying about that. as they should have been. Everyone has done a brilliant job of doing that. I mean that very, very sincerely. When you do something like that, it's your job as a fan to irritate everyone by bringing it up at every opportunity. And I think Arsenal fans have done great service on that. So we will go to a little break now. And in part two, I'll have a conversation with Marva Creel about the Copper 90 documentary, Finding the First South Asian Lioness, which will be right after this.

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48:59Okay, and welcome back to part two. And as promised, we are joined by Marva Krill. Marva, how are you? I'm very well, thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks very much for joining us. Now, Marva, we've invited you on because you've kind of fronted and helped put together a documentary through Copper 90 recently and I was very privileged to be able to attend the premiere of that last week. Do you just want to tell our listeners what this documentary is and what it's about? Yeah so it's called Finding the First South Asian Lioness and in summary it's just all about I guess the kind of story of South Asian girls and women in football in England particularly in England and yeah just kind of why we haven't seen a South Asian lioness some of those problems with diversity in women's football and then also just kind of mixing together those that complex history of South Asians and Britain and then women's football as the the minefield that it is.

50:01Yeah absolutely and I guess we won't go too much into what's in the documentary because we'll link to it in the show notes and we want people to watch it but But why did you want to make it? What was the genesis of this? Why did you want to make it and how did it all come together and who did it come together with? Yeah, so Anisha Sami, she works at Copa90 and she just sort of works more in the kind of creative department. So she does stuff with just the brands and that kind of thing as an internal worker. But she had this idea of being of a South Asian background and it was meant to be a kind of like little TikTok series.

50:37When she first called me last year, it was going to be this kind of like a few little explainers, maybe sort of three one-minute TikTok videos. And the more we got into it, the more we were just like, this needs to be something bigger. That kind of turned into a sort of 10-minute documentary, which then turned into a 25-minute documentary. And then once we actually started filming, got all our footage, got all our interviews, we were like, we just cannot make this 25 minutes. So it's now a 40-minute documentary. But I'm really, really happy with that because I just think it's a topic that deserves that level of input.

51:11But yeah, it came about through that. But then obviously Copper as a production company just helps put it all together. And then me, Anisha and the director, Abby, sort of came together to write it. And then there's a great page called Browntown Rising and they do a lot of market research and stuff. So they did a lot of the kind of pre-production work as well. And it's just been a topic that for me has been really close to my heart, not just the kind of South Asian element, but also just diversity of the women's game. and it's something that I just felt like a lot of that topic I kind of knew inside out it's just something I just innately knew and have been fighting for it for so long um so to get the chance to kind of yeah collaborate on it and work together and help write the script and do a lot of the research and it was just such an amazing project to help be a part of and and in terms of I'm interested in pitching it as well because like you say like real expert on the subject done personally I've done like some reading around the subject in a past life I was a D &I diversity inclusion practitioner so I feel like that doesn't make me an expert doesn't mean I know everything but I feel like I'm used to having these conversations but then there are people who will be completely unaware of this or maybe slightly curious but not not aware of some of the barriers that have created um this situation in in terms of pitching it where were you going with that yeah I guess like we were very lucky in that we didn't have to with Copernicus we didn't have to kind of pitch um our reasoning for doing it and they were very much like they just sort of let us do it knowing we kind of had the experts on board to be able to do it in terms of pitching it to the wider audience that's a whole other story because that is um you know I think luckily for me well I say luckily but I have been on the end of many criticisms for all of this stuff right and i'm just being a woman in football being a woman of mixed ethnic heritage in football i've seen everything i've seen it all so i know what is out there on the internet i know what the kind of instant reactions are going to be um and that helped in some ways because one i knew exactly what are the key things early on in the documentary we need to get rid of and we need to just say that isn't the problem i know what you're probably thinking i don't want to hear it this is what we're focusing on um there are going to be people who don't even watch past that first two minutes.

53:28There are going to be people who will have made their mind up already and will never be changed on that topic. And in all honesty, we're not trying to pitch to those people because you can't really convince a racist or a sexist to then care about diversity in women's football. It's just not going to happen. However, I think there are lots of other groups. There are people who maybe have just never considered it. So just seeing a documentary like that will just spark some things in their mind. I think there are some people who might be against it currently, but actually what happens, and we've seen this a lot with women being in football as a whole, is that at first they're against it.

54:04And then you don't actually need to convince them one to one because that won't work. But when they just see a gradual change in the mainstream and it just starts to happen, they just start to accept it as normal. And I think you get people like that, that the more we have conversations like this, the more we produce content like this. you start to win over those people in just a way of well this is just the normalization of of what we're talking about now um and then also what was really interesting actually is being at the premier like obviously lots of people from south asian community were there and there was a point in the documentary in the timeline where we talk about you know women's football being banned for 50 years and for for me and you and anyone who's worked in women's football i mean we're just so like yeah of course we know that that's just and that that stat came up with the quote from the fa from back in 1921, which is just women's football ought not to be encouraged.

54:54And there were literal gasps in the room because there are some people who've just never heard that part of the story. And there are some people who might casually follow football or follow men's football but not really know the history of women's football. And so I think just in terms of the pitching out to the audience, it's just I think there's so much in this for so many different audiences because there'll be women's football fans who have never really considered the history of South Asians in Britain as well. Yeah, absolutely. And maybe, again, not going too much into what's in the documentary, but some of the people you spoke to for the documentary, two of whom have been on this podcast before, it must be said.

55:30Yes, exactly. So we had lots of players, which was beautiful, and I'll get onto that in a second. But then we also had sort of experts in the field. So we had like, well, Farah, who all Arsenal women's fans and Arsenal fans should know about, obviously the chair of the Arsenal Women's Fan Club. And then we had Miriam Walker-Khan, Liz Ward, Dev Trahan, who's just been working on this topic for so, so long. Yes, so many experts. We had a sociologist who's like her, her name's Dr. Artie Ratner, and she has literally worked on this topic and done her PhD on this topic and has done so much research on it.

56:12And it's kind of one of the only academics in the country who's done anything on this. um so to get her involved was incredible um yeah just so many people involved and then the players it was so beautiful because like you said you've had amanda sanj on on the podcast before and her story got lost um and is still the only south asian woman to play for arsenal so like to just even have that kind of going back to her so many years later after her career and being like well here's this clear thing of nothing's changed in that time um and then it But it was also just really beautiful to be able to include so many players, some of the kind of real next generation and some who have maybe just sort of missed that kind of real big spark after the Euros and the benefits that so many of the young girls are going to get from that.

56:56But still just to be able to kind of celebrate them and shed light on just everything they've done and just see their kind of family set up. I thought that was a really kind of heartwarming part of the documentary of just seeing how much their families support them. Because instantly the first reaction, even though we address this in the documentary, one of the first comments was, well, South Asian families just don't want their kids playing football. And it's just so outdated. Yes, there are some families like that. But how many of us who are, you know, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, you know your South Asian mates who love football.

57:31so do you think that them having kids would not want them to play football like you're thinking of such a past generation um so yeah getting to to shed a light on that was beautiful but I think also just the culmination of so many different people in the documentary really really sort of brought it together in a nice way and one of the things I mean you don't really touch on this in the documentary is is your own experience we will try not to hold against you for the purposes in this podcast that you did play for Tottenham when you were younger. Yeah, apologies on that. But did you recognise some of that and some of those barriers from your time when you were younger playing for Spurs?

58:09Oh, massively. Spurs itself back then wasn't an academy, so we had the name of Spurs Girls and we sort of got given the kit and that was kind of it in terms of the connection with the men's club. It's not what it is today. now the Spurs Girls Academy is you know it's properly taken in under the the Spurs branch it is they have the like really great training facilities you see them there at the main training center for Spurs men like it's it's massively improved since I was a kid but yes it was I mean all our games were in Hertfordshire league so we played all our games out in Hertfordshire my mum had to drive me hours and hours every single Saturday or Sunday I can't remember now and training as well itself was kind of like an enfield so even that even if you lived in London and lived in Tottenham that still wasn't that easy to get to and I remember my first year there I was I think the only girl of mixed ethnic heritage there was one Greek girl of Greek Cypriot heritage and everyone else was was white English and you look at Tottenham and I grew up in Tottenham I went to school in Tottenham and you look at the ethnic makeup of my local community and that's not what that was um and I remember noticing it at that age I didn't quite have the language to put to it but I remember even me feeling a bit different and I'm pretty white but I remember feeling very different and I can just I just also remember seeing so many other girls drop out and so many girls who had so much talent drop out either because of just, yeah, lack of accessibility and also just that thing of not belonging.

59:49And I just remember feeling so sad about that because I knew myself, I wasn't good enough to make it professional, but I saw so many other girls who honestly were. And I won't go on about this too much, but there's a story I want to actually sort of go into a bit more because there were two girls I played with at school who played in the Arsenal Academy. And there's this photo that's gone quite viral ever since obviously the Champions League win from Arsenal of Leah Williamson and Chloe Kelly, you know, and that picture of them in that team when they were sort of under, I don't know what age, maybe under 12s or something like that.

1:00:21And one of the girls I went to school with was in that photo. And her and her twins' story is just incredible because they were so talented. Everyone in our local area knew about them. And they would have to get lifts from my friend's mum to get to Arsenal training. And then my friends got dropped from the Arsenal Academy and they no longer had a lift to training. And I don't know what happened from there. I've been speaking to her. I'm trying to find out a bit more. But that's just one example. If this was two people who were playing with Chloe Kelly and Leah Williamson, they could have been that in that generation.

1:00:53We talk about the Lionesses and, you know, the lack of diversity of that win. But I mean, what could have been, you know, you just don't know. Yeah, I know of a player at Watford who was in Arsenal's academy some years ago and got invited to go and play, I think, England under 16s or something and couldn't go because it's in Burton-on-Trent and literally just had to refuse an England call-up at that age. And then, like, who knows what impact that really had on her career, you know, compared to if she'd been able to join and have that kind of level of training. But I mean, one of the things you mentioned there, I guess, is proximity to whiteness as well.

1:01:35And there were a lot of subjects. I mean, this really could be like a six parter, like genuinely could be like a six parter Netflix type thing. I'm not sure if we've got anyone from Netflix listening, but, you know, and that's one of the subjects as well. But what are some of the things you didn't really have time to go into in this documentary? Yeah, I mean, the proximity to whiteness is definitely one I wanted to get into more. And also just the kind of the story of mixed heritage stories in the sense that the kind of success stories that we are seeing, even, you know, look at the WSL and Sam Kerr.

1:02:09And then also in Premier League football in history as well, when you've got Hamza Chowdhury, like a lot of these stories are from mixed heritage backgrounds. And I think there's a lot to be said for that. One, when it comes to sometimes the names, just, you know, you're seeing it on a team sheet and you don't think too much into it. I think also if you haven't grown up in a very ethnic area, sometimes you won't even kind of think that that person could be South Asian because you kind of don't know what a mixed South Asian person looks like. And then also in the case of like Hamza Chowdhury, yes, it's not proximity to whiteness, but then it's that thing of, well, if you've never seen a South Asian player play football, you almost don't know what to relate it to.

1:02:49and you see someone who's half black half bangladeshi and you might go oh i kind of understand that i've seen a player who looks like him play and you kind of don't think about it um so there's that there was also just like even just the term south asian we had so many chats about this and kind of how we really even justify using it because it's it is quite a post-colonial term in a lot of ways i mean like india for example didn't even really exist as a country in that form before colonialism like it did but you have so many different ethnicities within India itself let alone when you then go into the difference in you know Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, Nepali like there's so many different ethnicities and cultures and stories and religions and it's almost like we're kind of doing it an injustice to then just say South Asian because that isn't what it is and there's also so many stories in terms of well why do we see so many Punjabi success stories, for example?

1:03:51And that's partly due to location and a lot of a big kind of Punjabi demographic in the Midlands. And then there's lots of talent coming out of the Midlands, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, there's so many other things to get into, even just that and the story of the Midlands and kind of why that is producing so much talent, because people say, well, there's a lot of South Asians there. There's a lot of South Asians in London, though. So why particularly in the Midlands? So we started to get some answers on that, but we just felt that for what we were kind of trying to put forward, some stuff just had to be a bit more clear and some things had to just be a bit more let's tackle the kind of real clear issues first.

1:04:26And then hopefully, if Netflix want to finish for a six part series, we'll get into some of that. yeah and you know you focus as well on the intersectionality kind of aspect of it so you know South Asian and then there's female and then you speak to someone who's a who's deaf who plays football for England deaf team and you know that those kind of all of those kind of layers I think but one of the things that struck me about the documentary as well and you've referenced it there a little bit that you wanted to talk about positive stories as well and you know you go to Derby and you go to West Brom to see you know I guess like evidence of a future pipeline I mean do you feel how hopeful do you feel that there is change significant change in the air here I do feel quite hopeful um more so in the sense of you look at the kind of even you look at the England uh youth teams at the moment and their like ethnic diversity looks very different to the senior team at the moment and I think obviously we'll see kind of how that then progresses into them you know becoming senior lionesses but we are starting to see that in a way that if you looked at sort of the England youth teams even you know probably five years ago I don't think it represented that in the same way so I think even that is a clear kind of practical sign of some of these things coming through.

1:05:51We speak to the FA in the documentary and you know there are these emerging talent centres I do think are a really key thing because it's everything we were just talking about in terms of accessibility in London and in big cities um but I think it's also it's difficult because I also understand a massive frustration from the community in that some of these things we've been talking about for years like I said I spotted this when I was nine and what what's changed in that time and and it's difficult I think with the FA as well it's such a big institution and it is so representative of so many years of of kind of anger and hurt and and discrimination in a lot of ways and it's difficult when you have a kind of governing body like that because it's difficult for the community to connect with them because it's like well you've been at fault for a lot of this and yes you might have some really good people in there doing some good work but are you really the people that we can trust to continue to to work with and and to build those connections um so it it's kind of a bit like i said in the documentary it's almost like until we see that change i just don't know if i can be fully hopeful however i am starting to see some practical level of change um and i don't think it will just take one person to become a senior lioness of south asian background to change everything however i do think it would help massively um and i don't want to put too much pressure on some of those girls that are coming through but just in that sense of being able to really see it and just get over that hurdle um but also just shout out to some of those girls who are who are coming close to it because yeah they're just incredible and so are their families yeah I think again from having worked in the area like pace of change is really slow and it feels like you talk all the time and like that bridge between like okay but when does all this conversation when does it become something tangible I can see and one of the things you know I came out with a documentary thinking as well like you speak to the FA about like talent strategies this is all stuff I've worked on before myself albeit not in football but like a lot of the action the meaningful action obviously belongs at that strategic level with the FA with coaches grassroots organizations and all of that but I don't really know how better to phrase this question but is there something normal people can do or people who are not like looking after big strategies or not working for the FA yeah not coaches like fans maybe even journalists or grassroots coaches who are not in the upper echelons of the FA I mean I think it's being aware of it and truly being aware of the circumstances that have led to it and so if you are a coach if you are even just a manager of a you know your your girls five a side team or whatever it might be um having that in your mind when you see a south asian player you don't have that same thing of being able to connect her to a professional player um that you can kind of go oh she's going to be the next so and so which we we just do as as like a society we just always do that um but having that in mind if you're actually aware of it then you can say oh no she could be the next professional whoever I just haven't seen that yet but why couldn't she also be that um and I think also just as a fandom being aware of how white the space does feel for for women of color um and understanding how difficult that can be why then people of colour in in the women's football space don't speak out as much why they might sort of hide away a little bit more um and being able to give them their voice and sometimes just sitting back and listening um and actually listening to their concerns and not kind of doing away with it and I think the more we make it an inclusive space even in fandom even in you know the press box wherever it might be it is um it contributes to making women's football feel like a space for that next girl to come through because if you have a 10 year old girl who feels welcoming in the women's football community she might look up and be I could be that that next player if you have a 10 year old girl who just looks at the women's football community even as a fan and thinks that isn't for me we'll lose out on that talent so I think just making it as as an inclusive space as possible um and and even just there's a one I've just got one example there was a girl who kind of did a TikTok recently about sort of being she's a hijabi and she's from I think South Asian background and she goes to some of these events she's a bit of a content creator and she'll go to these events and people won't talk to her but they will online and she viewed that as a thing of well am I why aren't people talking to me is it because of my background is it because I'm a hijabi do people then think I'm not sort of welcome in the space I also know from being in many of those, you know, networking events, generally people can just be a bit like, just don't want to talk to people.

1:10:53But that made me think, oh, I don't want to be that person. So if I see other people, I'm going to go up to them. If I follow them on social media, I'm going to go up to them. So they don't think I'm just purposely not speaking to them. And I got that just from someone actually being open about it and listening. So I think, yeah, the more we can just take on any of this advice and make it a space that everyone feels welcome, I think that will also do a lot to kind of help these issues on the pitch too. Yeah, definitely. And another thing, obviously, didn't have room or space to go into in the documentaries about some of the other stuff around the football ecosystem, referees, coaches, journalists, like you say, like WSL press boxes, but very, very kind of white spaces still.

1:11:33And for our listeners, we did a podcast on that about three or four years ago with Pippa Monique, Anne-Marie Batson and Natasha Henry about lack of representation in women's football media. But just as a final question, Marva, you know, you spoke about how you've been thinking about this, involved in this personally, reading about this, etc, etc, for so long. But what surprised you in this documentary? what did you learn that maybe you didn't know when you went into it?

1:12:07I think just the sheer level of it and the scale of it, because the more we kind of got into it, even the people who had success stories, I first thought, well, maybe they've, because they were sort of saying quite positive stories. And I thought, well, maybe it's a kind of almost survivor bias of, you know, the people who have got through are the ones who have had positive stories, because of course but then you sort of got into deep conversations with them and unraveled things and they they had a lot of negative stories they had a lot of racist stories they just also had you know either a really supportive coach or a team or family to just help them push through that and I think the more we spoke to people and heard some of the kind of horrific racism that some of them experienced or just the like the way they would just be left out and and that side of things it just made clear kind of the gravity of how many people we've lost in the talent pool because you can't quantify that you just absolutely can't do any research or quantify how many girls could have been that next leah williamson but just did not then turn up to training because it was just too much for them they didn't feel like they belonged they were facing racism they couldn't get to training whatever it might be and we have generations and generations and generations of that particularly in women's football compared to men's football just because of the lack of accessibility and it not being a viable career option um so i knew this but i think just really seeing it up close and the kind of yeah the sheer gravity of the situation was was quite surprising marva thanks so much uh for joining us and for and for talking about that documentary really appreciate it no thank you so much and that's uh finding the first south asian lioness um That's available on Copper90's YouTube channel.

1:13:58It's absolutely free. It's about 40 minutes long. We'll put the link in the show notes and we absolutely encourage everyone to watch it because it's nice. It's entertaining in parts, but I think it's a subject. I think it's really well delivered and it's a subject that everyone should know about, really. So we'll put that in the show notes. Marva, again, thanks so much. Thank you. And we'll be back right after this.

1:14:33big thanks there to marvel creel talking about the documentary she fronted for copper 90 finding the first south asian lioness which is available and completely free of charge on copper 90's youtube channel which i think everyone should check out i referenced in the episode um that we've talked about this subject similar subjects before on previous episodes we put those in the show notes but I thought I'd mention them here as well so in December 2020 episode 19 we had an episode called skin in the game and that was a conversation I had with Pippa Monique, Natasha Henry and Anne-Marie Batson and that was about a lack of kind of ethnic diversity in women's football media for example so that conversation from 2020 if you're interested in that but also So we had episode 75 from January 2024.

1:15:23I spoke to Amanda Sange, who played for Arsenal and England, still, I believe, the only South Asian player to play for Arsenal women. That was episode 75. And then in episode 76, I spoke to Miriam Walker-Khan and Nuraldi a little bit more broadly around South Asian representation in women's and girls' football. The conversation with Aman was more to do with her own career. So yeah, those are episodes that we've done in the past. We will do more episodes like this in the future because it's important. But a real big thanks to Marva for talking to us. And we'll be back with another episode probably in a couple of weeks time, maybe just before the Euros will take a little bit of stock.

1:16:07But until then, thanks so much for listening. And we will speak to you again soon.

1:16:47Transcription by CastingWords No one called him Boss. He's still on the couch. Astonishing. Sell your car today on Carvana.com. Pickup fees may apply.