Arsenal Women Arsecast 128: A Place Called Home

0:00Hi, I'm Max Rushton, the host of The Guardian Football Weekly, alongside me, Barry Glendening, my co-host. Hey, Barry. Hello. Now, although every American found us during the World Cup, for the two that didn't, what can they expect? Found us and fell in love with us, Max. They can expect three episodes each week of occasionally insightful analysis covering the Premier League, Champions League and beyond. Football Weekly is back. Watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

0:41Hello and welcome to the Arsenal Women Arsecast on Arseblog.com with me, your host, Tim Stillman. Looking back at two signings Arsenal have made for players who really, really strangely left the club on the same day in 2018 to go back to Everton. But obviously, the signing of Chloe Kelly was confirmed and announced last week. And earlier this morning, as we record, the signing of Taylor Hines has also been confirmed. And the latter one was exclusively broken by us on Ask Blog News. And that's something we heard about before the end of last season, actually. So we'll get into the kind of the whys and wherefores of both those signings.

1:22Jamie is currently away in Switzerland covering the Euros, having a great time by the looks of it with haters. And also we've already talked about these two signings, Jamie and I, so we thought we'd get a fresh perspective on it. And here to do that with us is Arsenal women writer for the cutback, Max Radwan, who we've had on the show before. Max, how are you doing? I'm very good. Pleasure to be back on the Arscast. so the first one let's talk a little bit about the taylor heinz signing first because i think i think this is a really interesting one when i first heard the name towards the end of last season i was like oh that's quite a surprising one um not least because we signed a left back in january and taylor is predominantly a left back we'll come on to the right back thing i think in a minute because i think that's that's quite curious and that's something a lot of arsenal fans are discussing but first of all how do you view overall the signing of Taylor Hines what's your kind of response to it yeah so I had like a similar initial first response to you like strangely enough I heard like a sort of rumor about it in the fan park in Lisbon of all places the day before the Champions League final so I can't say that was like the ramifications of Arsenal signing Taylor Hines was like the first thing on my mind at that point but my initial reaction like you was it's kind of like yeah at first glance a bit of a head scratcher because you go well we've signed jenna just signed jenna naiswonga in january obviously we've got katie mccabe so it's so then kind of logically your brain goes to like okay that probably means she's going to be repurposed somewhat as a right back um which in itself will be interesting like it's not the first time not so much under renee to be fair but it's not the first time we we will have We've seen a left-footed player play at right back because we've seen Katie McCabe fill in there before.

3:22So I guess if you just look at it in the sense of the fullbacks Arsenal have, regardless of which side they can play on, we now have four players for those positions, albeit we still have one sort of... I'm kind of assuming that Laura Wienreuter leaves the club, but we have obviously only one of those is an out-and-out right back, but then we have Heinz who can fill in, Katie who can potentially fill in if we're really in an injury crisis, plus Jenna Nyswonga who's a bit more of a unique profile, I would say, within all of those players. So yeah, it's an interesting one. But I suppose it's one of those deals a little bit like, obviously there's been the links with us signing a new backup goalkeeper from Wallsburg.

4:11It's another one of those sort of deals where it's like almost like admin that you have to do in the window where it's like we need to fill these positions and it's not the most exciting signing but very necessary and you know it's kind of staggering that we went through all of our season with basically one right back and who played at the olympics as well had no summer yeah exactly yeah um so you know and you know credit to emily fox for for sort of you know hoeing up through all of that but we would have really been in trouble if she had had even even if she'd just been out for a few weeks so and also probably good for katie reed's development as well that if she's viewed primarily as a center back that she actually gets to play there um so yeah on the whole probably just a signing that that needed to be done and obviously within that like as you mentioned there's a really nice uh sort of personal connection to her with Arsenal coming back to the club and obviously that's all tied with um with Chloe Kelly joining uh well signing permanently so um so yeah a welcome addition for sure yeah yeah I think I think that right back piece is going to be really interesting because Rene you know I think was was fairly um clear with Laura Wienreuter before the January transfer window that she should go and find another club I think what we're seeing Taylor Hines, when you look at the data, maps very closely to Nyswonger, Emily Fox, Katie McKay.

5:41But as a right back, I know she's played there. I haven't seen her loads. I will say, just for information as well, no one's definitely told me that she'll play a lot of right back. I'm connecting dots here because I was certainly told that Arsenal wanted someone else who can play in that position that Laura Wienreuter will go and that it would likely be a versatile option. Sorry, excuse me. There we go. Frog in the throat. That it would likely be a versatile option who can play in other areas of the pitch as well, because obviously Emily Fox has got that position so firmly that if you get someone who only plays right back, they're basically not going to play very often.

6:23But Taylor Hines has played at right back. I'm not expecting another the signing of this ilk. So it really does look like she is probably going to be the backup right back. But it also, I guess, calls into question the use of Jenna Nyswonger as well, because we didn't see her very much after she signed in January, which I still don't have my head around. From what I'm told in training, absolutely fine. She has played in midfield before, and I'm not so sure about you know a club who wants to win the league and the champions league just repurposing players for the sake of it like what do you make of the the not should we say the nice one thing at this stage yeah um it is a little bit of a head scratcher so initially like i understand when you sign a new player especially one like coming from a different league coming from america you give him a bit of time to bed in at the club um and obviously like in a slightly different situation as well coming in in January where her season's kind of like out of sync as well with the European season um and I think for defenders especially um it's harder to come straight into a team and settle in a way that say someone like Chloe Kelly would be able to that being said it was really surprising that we didn't see her more especially late in the season where we had that that period where we'd reached the champions league final um and we had wsl games which obviously we were still playing for second place but they didn't have like massive amount riding on them and as it turned out we could we lost two of those games and still came second and we were ringing ringing the changes and like she wasn't particularly involved even even then um i seem to remember i think no it was palace that she started uh away which was when katie mccabe was that was because katie mccabe was suspended obviously that's the only reason she ever misses games yeah famously um so like yeah i'm a little bit surprised we didn't see her more just because as well this first sort of half season arsenal would have been a good betting in period i get that obviously champions league run you're not when she hasn't played that much you're not gonna like throw someone in in those circumstances um but but with heinz coming in it it does raise a few questions, especially because you mentioned there about potentially moving her to midfield, but like, you know, Arsenal, even though I guess there's conversations about how we might sort of evolve our midfield in terms of like the numbers and the quality, like we're absolutely stacked in that position right now.

9:08So even there, I'm not quite sure where the opening is. So, and yeah, like you say, also stylistically, there's not like a huge amount of difference maybe from what i the little bits of cena jenna obviously playing for arsenal seems a little bit more of a like inverting if you put like a fullback on like a scale of like traditional fullback to like sinchenko style inverting fullback i would say she is sort of further to that sort of latter side than than maybe even like katie and tether heinz is but that being said that's still like a very niche use and kate and and Rene is clearly happy with what Katie is doing.

9:49So yeah, I do find that a bit of a strange one, especially as this isn't a player who we went and got when their contract expired, like we have done with Taylor Hines. This is a person we spent money on as well. So yeah, bit of an odd one that, but I guess we'll see how that shakes out next season. Yeah, I think there's so much, and we'll come onto it in a bit, there's so much about the squad where it's like, We've got lots of good players, but it's like, how do we match profiles? How do we get a balanced team out of them? How do we use them perhaps more than we did last season? I think that's going to be really fascinating.

10:26But before we kind of do that, probably a slightly more obvious signing and someone we don't really have to speculate very much about how they fit into the team is Chloe Kelly. Not least because we had a, well, I say try before you buy, but it's free transfer. so didn't have to buy her but Chloe Kelly I'm curious Max as to I guess the journey I've described it myself before like the kind of the journey with Chloe Kelly from signing her on loan to actually seeing a play for Arsenal what's like what was your your feeling in January when Arsenal made a fairly opportunistic opportunistic loan signing of Chloe Kelly and and how things have developed over the last few months yeah i think so when we we made the move in january it was one of those where i was very much in favor of it because it's a market opportunity we were we were a bit light in that area of the squad so you kind of you press a button and see what happens kind of thing and i was very much of an open mind of like you know if this works great and then maybe there will be an opportunity there to go and sign it permanently if it doesn't fine it's a six six month loan um and you shake hands after that and go your separate ways for it to go as well as it has um probably probably did exceed my expectations a little bit um just because it felt like a bit of a step into the unknown especially when you're signing someone who's like obviously hadn't been enjoying her football and sort of was going through a difficult point in her career, you never quite know.

12:07That can really go in either direction. But I think it was very clear from early on that she's just massively taken to Arsenal. Arsenal, the club, the fans have taken to her. And I can't think of another example for the men's team or the women's team where a player has come in on loan and they have been like that loved by the fans immediately and it's like you're watching a player who you have permanently to the point where like like back obviously when we when we won a champions league in may um and she we're doing all the on-pitch celebrations and she's the one i think she did about she did about like 10 badge tapped point to the ground sort of thing during those celebrations alone um and like every single hint she could have given um that she was going to stay um i think we kind of went through in the last in the sort of period between the season ending and her signing this permanent deal at arsenal um so i did find it quite funny seeing arsenal fans really getting and football fans do tend to worry so this isn't proper arsenal fans but there seemed to be a lot of like i think at one point I saw like oh what if she goes back to Man City even as like a kind of worry some people had so I think that kind of shows you with transfers when it doesn't get announced people will go to some crazy places but like um I was always pretty confident from from when the season ended that she was going to stay it just seemed like that was the only possible outcome but I guess what is what is so impressive about all this is how that how quickly that has happened um that she's come in couldn't even remember couldn't even play the first i think three games that arsenal played after she came in on loan because of she was ineligible for various reasons so to come in and establish herself that quickly um you know while playing in the same position as beth mead as well who and then you know it's not even like that's been totally overtaken because they've sort of had a minute share where one started and one's finished the game so to yeah to to just like come in and and dear herself to the fans so quickly i think is a real credit to her and um yeah just felt felt like an inevitable piece of business we were going to do but nevertheless nice to have that confirmed and yeah really exciting i was gonna say to see what she achieve I mean she's already won the championship so you know that's a hard that's a hard uh sort of the bar's been set very high but um yeah really really happy with the signing of Chloe yeah it's it I mean I think her first start was on March the 2nd maybe that West Ham game and by was it March the 31st we played Palace and everyone's singing Chloe Kelly we want you to stay and I remember asking her about staying and and all of that i i guess kind of quickly on that though is there any now you know there was a negotiation obviously i think both sides had some leverage um in the negotiation um and any i guess like i've seen concern expressed that this was a pretty slam dunk signing but it still took a little while to do and you know looking back to the permanent appointment of Rene as well which looked like a pretty slam dunk appointment and there was a Christmas break and it still wasn't really done until I think the 17th or 18th of January or something like that like do you have any concerns over maybe the speed of of these two apparently like pretty slam dunk and kind of like I said with Taylor like I heard about that before the end of last season so I don't think there's any concerns there but like Rene and Chloe Kelly have really felt like right these are getting done and then there has been like a period of time where it's like this is getting done right this is this is this is happening right like do you have any concerns over that at all um so the with Rene yeah I found that one strange um especially because even sort of before we kind of collectively reached a point of the fan as a fan base where we all went to that place of like yeah this is getting done the club still sort of seemed to drag out their process that they'd obviously had in mind in terms of you know like nick cushing's name i seem to remember was still being thrown around as late as like november and it wasn't until that buy in munich game that was kind of framed as like the sort of uh what do you call it like um the audition sort of game yeah yeah yeah um that she was um that it seemed to only be after that point that it was like almost definite that she was Arsenal's choice and then as you say the whole winter break passes and there's a long gap until it's announced so I'm not quite sure like what what's happened there and why that's taken long so taking so long with Chloe Kelly yeah I guess like you say both sides would have felt they had a strong degree of leverage and it's hard obviously it's hard to know about only the people involved in those talks I guess know exactly what what went on and what was said but I suppose both would have just felt comfortable enough that they were going to get what they needed out of it and it's just thrashing that out but maybe you can look at it and go from Arsenal's perspective and I'm really I'm just speculating here because you know I don't want to sort of say it because Arsenal were doing something they weren't doing but like if Arsenal were there like really haggling over the contract.

17:58Maybe you look at it and go, there's absolutely no way we can let this deal not happen. So you just give the player what they want. But regardless, in the end, we've got to the point where both parties have agreed the deal. And I think there was a one-day gap between June 30th when the season officially ends. and I'm guessing that's when the loan contract would have ended and the contract officially being announced. And obviously you presume it would have been signed at some point before the announcement, you know, in the weeks before. So, yeah, I mean, the Renee one, a bit odd. The Chloe Kelly one, I guess it's one of those where, you know, it only looks bad if it sort of, if it breaks down.

18:49I don't know. So, yeah. Yeah, I think when there's a deal to be done, there's a deal to be done. you know, basically. And I found that like the period of exclusivity kind of reporting from David Ornstein at The Athletic, like I'm not, first of all, I'm not sure that's a thing. Maybe it is. I don't know. I'm not sure that's like a thing on paper, but from what I understand, there wasn't really seriously anyone. Like, I think that period of exclusivity was basically happening the whole summer from what I understand, but maybe I don't understand absolutely everything went into it but yeah I think like you said I think both parties were pretty comfortable that they'd come to like a good compromise we'll take a little break there and then when we come back we'll talk a little bit about maybe other areas of the squad that need a bit of a nip and a tuck and we'll speculate a little bit more on that and then we'll do a little bit of Euros chat we'll be right back after the break.

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21:23Okay, and we're back. And having discussed the signings that Arsenal have made in Chloe Kelly and Taylor Hines, free transfers for players who came through their academy that they're buying back. You know, there's been a lot of talk, Max, I think rightly so, about perhaps bringing the age profile of the squad down a little bit. I'm not sure how much that's going to happen this summer because I'm not sure there's going to be loads and loads of turnover by the sound of it. I think the goalkeeper, the backup goalkeeper position might turn over. But actually, I mean, I'm not really hearing about players leaving or anything like that at this stage.

22:02And I don't think there's going to be loads and loads more business done. I know Emma Sanders from the BBC saying, you know, one, well, one or two more at least. So, you know, we've got Taylor, we've got Chloe Kelly, which are, let's say, let's leave the goalkeeper part out because I think that's quite obvious. If Manu goes, we need another goalkeeper, you know, much like the men's team, that's admin. What other positions would you like to see strengthened in the squad? yeah so i think this the interesting thing about this question is for so long i was viewing this arsenal squad even after renee camp come in and after we'd signed chloe kelly and being like that sort of fabled winger signing that everyone's talking about which i think is is sort of separate to chloe kelly um it's something that we really need to do and while i still broadly sort of hold the opinion that signing a winger who wants to dribble at people can take a player on and I guess we can kind of get into what that might look like in terms of a player.

23:12I actually think Arsenal's top priority now may have changed in the you know, looking at some of the games under Rene where they've sort of in the latter part of the season second half of the season we were involved in a lot of games that have become basketball matches essentially and And 4-3 win against West Ham. The 4-1 or 4-2, I think it was, defeat at Brighton. Again, the Villa game you can probably be a little bit more dismissive of because of the circumstances that's played under. But even like final day, we beat United 4-3. So we've got all these games where actually scoring goals hasn't been a problem or creating chances.

23:47And we're looking really leaky at the back. And at the same time, obviously, we don't go and produce an incredibly, one of the best defensive performances you'll ever see in a Champions League final. But... Watching us in the last few months of the season sort of made me reconsider if maybe our top priority might actually be to go out and sign a central defender, someone who could, and this is like no shade on Steph Catley, who I think has adapted to the left-centreback position really well. I think on the whole, she had a really solid season. But I think we can all see, and I know you've mentioned this on the pop before, but in the air, I think there's a bit of an issue there.

24:31the problem obviously as we know is that left left-sided or left-footed centre-backs are very much at a premium I think left-footed players in general like I can't think of a left-footed winger we've had other than when Katie's played there since Rachel Yankee like left left-footers in women's football are just very rare across the board I think yeah yeah exactly yeah that's a good point and and and i guess that's why you know the i was going to call it the steph cally experiment but i mean it's got she's played there for the whole season so i think it's probably a bit more than that at this point but like that's i guess part of the reason why that's been so beneficial to us to win possession is because it gives us something that a lot of teams just don't have but i think i think there is scope for some kind of an upgrade there the tricky thing though is that you know at the same time season before last a lot of a more one player of the season didn't really feature much in the second half of this season partly obviously due to injury and she signed a new contract at the club and i think it would be a foolish thing to to write her off at arsenal because i think she's still an incredibly good defender who has a lot to offer um so if you bring someone else in then maybe someone maybe someone like like adina would be sort of on the market.

25:59I don't know. But there's sort of the knock-on effects maybe of signing a central defender are tricky. But I would say there is scope for an upgrade there. But then it's like, if you can't find the ideal solution, do you just stick with what you have or do you reach some sort of a compromise? Having said all that, I still think, going back to the initial point about the winger, that can help Arsenal in certain game states. I think back to the game against, Chelsea were at Stanford Bridge where I thought we played well for the most part but we had a few counter-attacking opportunities in that game and like it was like we just didn't have that player to really drive at them and I think in certain situations there's I think having maybe an Olivia Smith type of profiler player would be quite useful for Arsenal so so yeah those would probably be the two positions.

26:54I think there's also a lot you could do with the midfield, but that feels like that would require a lot of churn that I don't think that will necessarily happen this summer. So yeah, probably centre-back and winger would be for two for me that I would be looking at. Yeah, because it's interesting because I think we kind of both agree Arsenal perhaps need to get a bit taller, especially like Lina Hurtig and Amanda Illestat have gone, and I appreciate they haven't really been part of the team for a while. I think Arsenal need to get a bit more powerful as well and they need to get younger. And it's difficult to see how they do all of that in a couple of signings, basically.

27:35That feels like more of a several transfer window job and we've brought in two players who are 26-27 already. So I kind of agree on the centre-back, maybe defensive midfield as well. I'm with you. I think Arsenal have so many midfielders and it's just like, how do we sort all of these midfielders out and get the best use of them? Because I think the quality is undeniable. There's not a single midfielder there that I look at and go, I'd lose them. They're all good. It's just how do they all fit together? But we perhaps don't really have a natural six. But listen, I think everyone, Arsenal included, is in agreement.

28:15They need another wide player. And this is something that's been going on for years. I basically said this every summer for like the last four years, that Arsenal want another wide player. And ideally, they'd like a younger wide player who's a bit tricky and takes people on. And that's definitely what they wanted last summer. And then they kind of pivoted to Rosa Kafagi because the kind of market dictated it. And they thought, well, we've got Mariana, she can play on the wing as well. And then we've tried Gio, we've tried Chloe Lacasse. Like there's, you know, we've kissed a lot of frogs in that position and it hasn't quite come off.

28:53But what do you make of, you know, the interest in Olivia Smith in particular? In many ways, she's 21. She's very fast. She runs at people and all of that. It does look like, well, it is the case that Liverpool basically don't want to sell. She's under contract for two more years. If this is a signing that gets done, it's going to be very expensive. one way or another. You've also, I think, got Chelsea in the mix, which if you're Liverpool, that's good news as well. What do you make of the interest in Olivia Smith and maybe the price of doing it? Yeah, I mean, first of all, we know firsthand how good Olivia Smith can be.

29:35I think we'll remember the FA Cup game at Meadow Park where she gave Katie McCabe a really difficult time. It would be in keeping as well with Arsenal to sign a winger who's previously had a bit of an on-field spat with Katie McCabe and then they end up in the same team. The content's already there. Exactly, yeah. When we win the Champions League next year, we can do some Olivia Smith, Katie McCabe content. Getting very ahead of myself there. But yeah, I think Olivia Smith broadly fits the profile. and obviously, as you mentioned, would be very expensive. One of the benefits, though, of her having been at Liverpool is she's played in the WSL.

30:23She's sort of taken her game up another level. And I know you've spoken on this pod before about how Arsenal have sort of made the mistake of being the first development move for players like Kofagi and Geo McCool, and then they don't really have the room to develop. So, you know, maybe the way to go, not necessarily from a financial point of view, but from the perspective of like sort of getting in a young player who's a little bit further down the line in terms of their development is to, yeah, you let them go to a club like Liverpool and they go and they develop. And then you go and make that signing.

31:00A bit like Van Dompselaar, right? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a really good comparison. and like obviously the finances that could be tricky but then this is where I'm not clued up enough about like women's football finances but I know obviously Arsenal and I know there's a degree of separation from like the money obviously Arsenal have available to them on the men's side but I look at you know I always sort of come back to it being like you know it's a few weeks on on on a men's players contract or something or like in May uh we sold Jorginho to Flamengo early for like a few hundred thousand pounds and that's like a marquee women's signing right there so so with the finances I'm probably maybe less concerned about than others and obviously you see as well what Chelsea are doing where to be fair very much in keeping with Chelsea's mentality as a club generally of like throwing their weight around in the transfer market and sort of going okay we like this player we're going to buy them and to be honest I don't I wouldn't mind Arsenal having a bit of that sort of arrogance, if you like, of saying, yeah, we like this player.

32:04We're, with all due respect, the biggest club in English women's football, and we're going to put the money down. And we're the champions of Europe. Let's not forget that particular line as well. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I think all our fans are very good at not forgetting that from, on a side note, I've really enjoyed everyone's tweets, shoehorning Arsenal being champions of Europe into every opportunity but um yeah so I do think that you know if Arsenal really want to get that deal done I think there are sort of ways we could do it but the interesting thing I guess with Smith is that again like does that mean we repurpose sort of it's a little bit like the left back right back situation where it's a lot of players who are more comfortable or more used to playing on one side um and does that mean like do we repurpose Smith to be more of a left winger do we we saw Chloe Kelly start I think it was the Palace game on the left wing and played well and obviously as well anyone who like watches Arsenal closely will know that about 20 minutes into pretty much any game Rene will do the classic thing of switching the wingers so I guess when it comes to like flexibility of one side versus the other side um especially when like they're all right-footed players anyway like i suppose there is um there can be a degree of flexibility there um so so but that would be something maybe to work out but broadly speaking i think Olivia Smith would tick a lot of boxes still quite a young player so it's not so again arsenal will still have to think about like pathways and developing her properly even if she is a little bit further along the line than say Rosa Cavadry was so that could be a challenge if they were to bring her in but yeah like obviously a long way to go in terms of if that was a deal that happened but like on on on the sort of on the surface like I think that would be quite an exciting uh deal for Arsenal to pursue yeah yeah like you say like she she did play on the left for Liverpool but they switched her to the right and she really popped to that point clearly I think better on the right maybe that was particular to Liverpool though um you know perhaps I I kind of doubt this but perhaps there's a world where Katie McCabe becomes the left winger and then we've got two left backs and Taylor Hines and Jen and I swung her I'm I'm not sure I see that but it's it's all kind of it just feels like our squad is like this big or not a cake but there's loads of There's all the ingredients for a cake, basically, but we just don't know where they're all going yet, which in one respect, I guess, produces a bit of anxiety, but a lot of curiosity, probably some excitement as well.

34:56Yeah, I mean, I definitely agree. I think also the thing is that there were wide players, other wide players on the market this summer, but most of them have moved now. so I don't know who else you'd really get but I think that's one that will probably play out a little bit because I think the market will go a bit quiet because of the Euros and speaking of the Euros Max has written by the way on the cutback which is a kind of a newsletter website you should subscribe to I am subscribed to as well loads and loads of great Euros content but also great WSL content throughout the season. But obviously we'll take a bit more of an Arsenal lens on this.

35:38And I think there's two players, really, I think I'd like to kind of talk about here. I mean, Victoria Pilova scored for Netherlands. Really good to see her being able to get into her stride, which I don't think she was able to at the end of last season. Obviously playing a slightly different position, I think, than she would at Arsenal, but really good to kind of see her a little bit. But I think there's two players who provided probably the most intrigue from an Arsenal perspective so far. And the first one, Max, I think. The second one's a bit more speculative as a conversation. I think the first one isn't.

36:15Max Lievolti. I was really worried coming into this tournament because she has had issues with that knee. This is all stuff she said in interviews that she's gone to surgeons and they've basically said, there's not really much we can do. You've got to manage it. from here on in and seeing news about her not training really with Switzerland. And then when she does, there's more strapping on both of those knees than that makes you wince a little bit. And I think it was a little bit of a race against time for her to play that first game in particular. And I think a lot of this, I mean, the Kim Little-Mariana double pivot really, really worked at the end of last season as well.

36:57But, you know, I do think her role was reduced a little bit at Arsenal because of that pain she's managing. And I think it'd be interesting to see what that means going forward. But I think that's all stuff we can worry about in August because Leo Valti, not just leading her team out, Max, but I mean, we've seen, I think, prime Leo Valti in this competition as well, particularly in the context of like Backman not being there, AMCs on the bench. like she is the experienced player in that team with no well merits how much have you enjoyed maybe like you know wincing a little bit with that knee strapping watching leo volte you know captaining her country in a home tournament like this yeah i mean first and foremost i'm just so happy for her just a really likable player and actually one of those you can tell when the players really like all because you go on like your your timeline and the people you follow who don't support arsenal are saying all these like nice things about lia velti and there's i think there's just generally like really a really high level of goodwill towards the player um brilliant for her to sort of have this moment leading her team out at a major tournament um which by the way is unlike a side note i think i've been really impressed with how well switzerland obviously I've not been out there but watching on TV how well Switzerland the Swiss fans have taken to it all and I think for her to be yeah not just the literal leader in terms of the armband but the leader the technical leader if you like on the pitch um yeah like you say with the with the issues she's had you don't quite know how that's going to go and it would be it would have been just a real shame if um a if she'd like pull up with an injury in the first couple of games and you know touchwood hopefully she she holds up throughout the tournament but it also would have been a shame if she'd sort of not produced the level we know she's capable of but she's been absolutely brilliant um i mean i've been really impressed with switzerland as a whole actually as a team but her in particular just doing all the liavel anyone who's watched liavelty doesn't really need me to describe her performances in these games because you know it's you know it's the disguised passes it's the sort of setting of the tempo in both the goals not just the the opening goal that swiss score that the swiss score against norway the goal um last night against the first goal again she's like the one who's playing that progressive pass that sets them away and like yeah just a reminder of i don't think for people who needed reminding of how good she can be as you say after like quite a difficult season for her because of obviously fitness related but just really good to see her really looking at her best on the biggest possible stage there was obviously a moment in the the the opening game well technically not the opening game of the tournament but the the official opening game between switzerland and norway where there was that crazy passage of play where norway get the penalty they missed the penalty switch and go up the other and get the penalty and it's eventually overturned by par i have to admit i saw a few people expressing the same sentiment of like being very nervous with leah with the ball in their hands potentially having to take a penalty not that not because i would have you know felt unconfident about her scoring it but just the the the sort of the fear that that is you know yeah a thing that could have that she could have potentially not scored it and it would have been terrible so there's sort of like a almost a nervousness i think when you're watching one of the players for your club that plays for your club playing for a country who like you don't have any sort of skin in the game with and you just want your player to do well and you kind of feel a sense of protection almost towards the player and it's it's very parasocial isn't it yeah yeah literally and it's no even like when she's when she was giving her tv interview after the game uh for itv um i saw like a few people uh who i know posting the i don't know if you've seen the meme where it's like taking photos of the tv screen like i'm at a concert like taking the photo yeah yeah yeah and it was like very um yeah but a lot of goodwill towards towards there and like just really happy for her that she's played well that the the the the Swiss fans as a whole have taken to the tournament and hopefully now, I mean, I should really, it would be on brand for me to be, for anyone to be neutral towards Switzerland, obviously.

41:43Someone could make a better pun than that, but like they should now go on, should go and go through if they can just avoid defeat against Finland. And I think obviously for any tournament, it's always good to see the hosts do well, but particularly when the host nation is led by like a figure that's loved by all Arsenal fans. Yeah, definitely. Just a really good person as well as a good player who deserves all the good things. And I think you're right. I think Switzerland are maybe for the first time ever in terms of men's and women's teams. I think Switzerland, like one of the countries whose men's and women's teams map really, really closely and generally not that interesting.

42:25but they've got this kind of young generation bubbling under and a coach in Pia Sundargo who's very, very experienced. Someone I like a lot because of covering the Brazilian national team and just like someone who also just seems like a really, really good person, great singing voice as well. By the way, very good on the guitar and all of that. So there was another potential career for her there. But yeah, I agree. I think you need a host nation to do well. And I'm with you. There was a lot of talk, I think, before the tournament, which I kind of subscribed to a bit, where it was a bit like, oh, Switzerland, smaller stadiums, doesn't feel like it's going to be the same spectacle as the Euros in England.

43:10But actually, I think it has been. And again, one of the things that is important about these things is that they look good on TV, particularly because international tournaments are such a recruiter of women's football fans and like they've looked great the stadiums have looked full they've looked noisy um obviously very picturesque as well which i think really helps i've loved seeing like national anthems where they pan past the players and you see the mountains in the background and um yeah i think i think so far like looks like a really well hosted tournament i too didn't go out just because i don't have that kind of money i don't know if you've ever been to switzerland but you have to remortgage your house to eat in a restaurant put it that way i actually i actually funnily enough i when i was like 18 i went into railing and i went to various countries in europe and i did like literally like one night staying in in bern in switzerland and it was one of those where i've been told it's expensive and then you go there and you go to a mcdonald's to like get something cheap to eat and you end up paying like a ridiculous amount and you're like yeah okay maybe uh not the most accessible place to go and like in a financial sense yeah i i went uh when the men's team played basel uh in 2016 and like usually a european away i would not eat in a burger king or anything like that but i did and it was still like 20 quid.

44:37And that was 10 years ago. So yeah, apart from that, obviously, looking like really good. And I really hope it grows the sport a little bit, particularly in the context that they have this really young team and they've got four teenagers in the squad. They've got one who's already at Barcelona. I really hope that that helps kind of really generate greater interest. But another player we should talk about in closing, Obviously, England lost to France and Max, you wrote about that on the cutback. So, you know, I'll point people to that for your thoughts on the France-England game overall. But I think the real discussion point for Arsenal fans is, you know, Michelle Ajimang is in the squad.

45:21I think we've probably all understood that she would be used almost a bit like when England used to send Millie Bright up front. I kind of feel like Aji Mang's going to feel that like we're a goal or two down with 10 minutes to go. And she's kind of the Hail Mary player. As a side note, I hope that she doesn't get too typecast as that, because I do think there's more to the player. We can talk about her development, but obviously had quite a big impact when she came on against France, I think. And, you know, what did you make of perhaps the way England are using her and how you see maybe next season for her?

46:05So in terms of England, first of all, and how they're using her, it actually reminds me, I think there are quite a lot of parallels to the England men's team last summer when they picked the squad. and they also went with three recognized center forwards and they had obviously harry kane starting ollie watkins was kind of the backup but then they had like the third sort of as you say like hail mary option of ivan tony and i think there was one game i think it might have been the savakia game where england are losing late on and they chuck i'm tony on and like go to up front and it really causes problems and they get back into the game and i always sort of had the sort of suspicion that michelle would be used in a similar sort of way and i guess in the first in the game against france very much kind of as you say kitchen sink sort of like emergency situation um a little bit surprised that agave bb jones actually didn't get on in that game but i think in the as late as it was in that game it made sense to to bring michelle on kind of go of the traditional two up front go direct um and funnily enough obviously not the first time that you know arsenal fans would have seen michelle argument come on in a big game in a big european game um chasing a goal because we saw you know a couple years ago when she came on late in the in the champions league semi-final against walsberg but yeah i think that that's her role for England and I think maybe yeah as you say like don't want to reduce her to that because she is a really good player and like we saw when she came on well I think she can't remember yeah she came on against Belgium and scored that that amazing goal so she can you know she has a lot of qualities I think you could see there's a there was a rawness to her game to a degree but like the just the general sort of level of just giving the French defense something else to think about I think that was really valuable for England.

48:07And I'm sort of, the England fan in me is almost like, well, I hope we don't see too much more of her because that means we'll be in a real pickle if she's coming on. But obviously it's amazing for her that she's in a situation where she's not just in the squad, but being able to contribute and be an important player, which is, you know, we forget how young she still is and how quick that rise has been. But sort of linking this all back to Arsenal, I think we've got, this is like one of the most, if not the most important decision we make this summer is what we do with Michelle going into next season because you know you and Jamie have been on this pod and had the discussion about how Arsenal manage young players and obviously in the past that those have been players that we've signed but applies just the same with academy players and the thing with I guess with Michelle is like is she good enough and ready to play for Arsenal right now I think the answer to that is yes but you look at the Arsenal squad and Alessia Russo's going to be the starting striker next season just as she was last season hoping that she doesn't get injured or anything and you would presume the player who's just got the winning goal in the Champions League final, Stina Buxtenius is going to be her understudy.

49:22Nicely shoehorned. Yes. So where that leaves Michelle if hopefully we don't have any big injury problems i'm not quite sure because you can do that sort of third striker option i think in the tournament i think over the course of the season it's a little bit different and then you kind of get into the territory of okay well do we play her off the wing is that tied into potential pursuit of a winger as discussed earlier and it's all a bit again it comes back to this point you're making about like the cake and the ingredients and it's like Michelle's another piece in all this and it's like where does she fit and I don't think the club should actually be I think if Arsenal go and they loan Michelle out again I think they will they will probably get a degree of criticism for that I don't think they should be afraid to sort of potentially maybe disappoint people by doing that if they don't have a clear plan for the player because I think they they're like the fundamental point here is that Arsenal like if Arsenal keep Michelle and they're not giving her the minutes I think that is a worse place for her to be in than just go doing like one more WSL loan maybe maybe going back to Brighton I don't know maybe going to an Everton or an Aston Villa or whoever and you get one more year of development and then maybe in a year's time I'm not exactly sure what Stina's contract situation is but maybe in a year's time you go you shake hands with Stina so thank you very much and then you have Michelle ready to come in and genuinely compete and provide an alternative to Alessio Russo as the centre forward.

51:03But having said all that, if Arsenal have a clear plan for Michelle next season and they're committed to it, then I think that would be great and I think we'll be happy to see her play. But I just hope they're sort of decisive in how they use her, if that makes sense. Yeah, definitely. For me, I think the ideal way to go is almost loan her another good WSL loan like Brighton or someone like that and offer a new contract with it for example say here's like a three-year deal we'll send you on loan this year next year you'll come back I think Steen's contract is up next summer I always stay away from being certain on contract lengths because there's so many plus ones and things like that but even if it's not if Ajemang has a good loan spell I think Steiner 30 it should come to a stage where that feels a lot more natural so I'd really like to see her do another really good WSL loan we look at Chloe Kelly what did she do?

52:07She went away and played basically and I think it's just important that she plays and that path probably isn't at Arsenal yet but I think it will be next year. So that would be what I'd like to see happen. But, you know, like you say, she might score a hat-trick against Netherlands. She might score the winner in the final, et cetera, et cetera. She might really explode. And I think Arsenal would have to be explosive. I do think they're kind of waiting to see how the Euro shakes out before having a conversation, which I think is probably the right way to go. But definitely really exciting talent, probably the most exciting to come from the academy since Leah Williamson, really, probably since Leah and then Chloe Kelly and Taylor Hines maybe.

52:49But Max, thanks so much for that. Really good conversation. And yeah, again, tell people where they can read your musings on Arsenal women and the Euros. Yeah, so first of all, thank you for having me on the pod. Pleasure as always. So most of my writing is now found on the cutback, which you mentioned earlier. um so that's all done through sub stack and there is there is a free tier so um i'm sure a lot of listeners will be familiar with flowline hughes from counterpressed she the cutbacks basically her her sort of invention and she within that obviously contributes herself with uh a newsletter she's doing a lot of work around the euros as well on top of arsenal there's if for some reason you'd want to read about other clubs uh there are dedicated writers to um the uh chelsea who have never won the champions league manchester united uh manchester city even spurs um and but obviously as well if you want to write read about um about arsenal um yeah all the stuff on there it's mainly mainly tactical stuff um so i'll usually be breaking down a game um sort of after it's happened and it's actually quite interesting as well with like sort of seeing because what just to go into like sort of process when i write these that i don't i obviously tell i know you do like your analysis piece and i generally try not to read it so i don't have my ideas sort of influenced and it's i find it interesting then looking back and seeing sometimes when there's like overlap when a theme jumps out but obviously with renis sega's arsenal tactically always a lot going on um so yeah uh so you can find as i uh find all that on sub stack and all the stuff is shared to the usual uh social media channels yeah absolutely and i'm a i'm a paid subscriber and also believe that you know women's football content um is perhaps still not as developed or rather it's still a developing market.

55:04I think it's really interesting to see, you know, Flo doing that, Girls on the Ball, really kind of going down a newsletter route as well. I subscribe to Rich Laverteers, Chronicles of Women's Football. And ultimately, this is a kind of burgeoning space. There's a lot of good people in it. But obviously, it needs eyeballs and it needs money as well. So, you know, you kind of get what you pay for content-wise. but Max thanks so much for that we will have you on the pod again very soon I'm sure I think Jamie and I will probably do a pod once the group stages are over her schedule will clear a little bit more hopefully for a couple of days and there'll probably be more to talk about in the tournament but until then thanks so much for listening and we'll speak to you very very soon

56:20I'll see you next time.