Arsenal Women Arsecast Episode 152: FIFA Champions Cup Preview Special

0:13Hello and welcome to the Arsenal Women AskCastCastAndAskBlog.com with me your host Tim Stillman with a special preview show for the FIFA Champions Cup that is happening in London London this week.

0:30cup and it works quite a lot like the men's intercontinental cup works or worked i don't even know if they still do that anymore but essentially what we've got um are four games in london uh two on wednesday so semi-final final setup so the first semi-final at brentford stadium at 12 30 on wednesday is going to be uh gotham who are the most recent concaf champions league winners from New Jersey against Corinthians from Sao Paulo, who are the reigning Copa Libertadores champions. And in fact, they tend to win the Copa Libertadores every year. And then later at 6pm at Brentford Stadium, you've got Arsenal, the champions of Europe against Asfar from Morocco, who are the most recent CAF Champions League winners.

1:20And then on Sunday at Emirates Stadium, there will be a third place playoff between the two losers of those games and then a couple of hours later you'll have the final between the winners of those two games so that's how it's going to work it's the first time it's happened in women's football um this kind of this kind of tournament there is going to be a club world cup in a couple of years which arson will also be in um and i really thought it was worth putting a preview episode together for this particularly because um a few of these opponents probably won't be very well known to our listeners so i'm going to talk first to ali howarth who is a freelance african football journalist um who gives us great like a really really great detail both on as far themselves um women's football in morocco and the context there in the recent injection of funding and women's football in afcom more widely how as far tend to play some of the kind of players to look out for so there's a good 27 minutes with Ali talking about that after that we'll be talking to Jenna Tonelli Jenna is based in New York and she writes about the NWSL for Sports Illustrated but but really focuses on Gotham and she has her own substack called Jenna's sources which is exclusively about Gotham FC and again we really go into it into some detail about Gotham how they play key players well win you know last couple of years for them they've won the NWSL a couple of times in 2023 and 2025 and winning the CONCACAF Champions League as well and you know the the potential prospect that the book is would certainly have you believe it would be an Arsenal Gotham final on Sunday at Emirates Stadium we'll see of course so we get 25 minutes with Jenna really going through that and a lot of the detail at the end I will do a couple of minutes on Corinthians there's an irony here that I know a few people who cover Corinthians and know Corinthians very very well for those of you who don't know I used to write about Brazilian football for many years myself and covered the Salasal Feminina myself a little bit but unfortunately most of them don't really speak English very confidently so I know a little bit so I'm gonna do a little bit at the end on Corinthians it won't be anywhere near as detailed or frankly as good as our guests who will talk about Asfar and Gotham but I also felt we'd kind of be remiss to leave them out so really it's much more of an overview a bit more contextual whereas with Asfar and Gotham we get much more into the weeds so without further ado we'll start with my chat with Ali Haworth on Asfar.

4:08So now I'm delighted to be joined by freelance African football journalist Ali Haworth to talk about one of Arsenal's opponents for certain, well Arsenal's only certain opponent at the moment in the FIFA Champions Cup, Asfar. Ali, how are you? Thanks for joining us. Yeah, doing well mate, thanks for having me on. How did you, before we start how did you get into I'm particularly interested in this as someone who wrote about South American football for a little while how did you get into writing about African football yeah so I uh I'm from the UK originally but I was born and raised in Kenya in East Africa so I lived there for 18 years and was born there so when I kind of got into journalism got into football journalism I thought uh none of this European nonsense for me I only want to cover African football so that's kind of ever since then it's it's really all I try and do all I ever have done yeah and obviously when you get to cover like a whole continent it's a very very kind of rich theme of of stories but obviously we're here to talk about well a bit about as far Arsenal's first opponents um in the semi-final of the Champions Cup but before we get on to them and perhaps women's football in Morocco um what would you you know kind of in headline style would you say as the general, shall we say, state of play with women's football in Africa at the moment?

5:30And I appreciate it's a big continent and there are probably several different answers to that question. Yeah, it's a hard one to answer. And like you say, it's very, very diverse. But I think what I would say is women's football in Africa has come on tremendously in the last, I would say, eight years. Prior to that, you know, there was really, there was no, there was no Champions League. there was no club football played between nations it was only international football and international football was completely dominated by Nigeria the Super Falcons you know won every title bar two which Equatorial Guinea very randomly won those two uh in a couple years where they hosted the the women's AFCON and and it was kind of yeah not not really prioritized but a few things have changed in the last I would say decade is is one uh Morocco have got massively invested in football and I'm sure we'll get more into that but they have invested more in football relative to their kind of previous standing than I think any country in the world and it is truly remarkable but then that's kind of forced a lot of the other nations to catch up that's forced a lot of nations to invest a lot more and then I think a huge thing that has changed a lot as well was the introduction of the Women's Champions League in 2021 where you could kind of see club teams from around the continent kind of playing against each other and you had some strong teams like Asfar like Mamaluri Sundance in South Africa that had kind of a longer history than most but a lot of other clubs have really started to invest and particularly again another really good thing is the the men's side of it is CAF implemented this rule where if you are going to compete in CAF continental competition so you know your Champions League or Confederation Cup the African Europa League you have to have a women's team and so a lot of these big teams with big followings on the men's side of the game are finally starting to invest money into their women's team and and I think that's really upped the standard as well so in the last eight nine years the kind of scene has really transformed from what it was yeah just a decade ago it's amazing to see to be honest that's really interesting conmibol did the same thing when they expanded the men's coppa libertadores a few years ago they implemented the same rule that you must have a women's team um to be able to compete in the competition which i felt was a really good innovation which is maybe a bit more slowly but done something similar for south american women's football but in terms of you know you referred to morocco there you know we've just had afcon the men's version in morocco which again as someone who doesn't follow afcon that much that really seemed to be teed up for morocco to win um as hosts which obviously um didn't quite happen um perhaps let's not talk about the final too much because that's a whole different podcast and probably not really relevant for our purposes but you know you referred to morocco really investing.

8:16Obviously, we saw in the last Women's World Cup, Morocco got to the knockout rounds and played France. I think, obviously, we've seen Nigeria in Women's World Cups before, and they took England to penalties. I think we're seeing improvement with South Africa, definitely as well. But what about women's football in Morocco? And Morocco, I believe, got to the last two WAFCON finals as well. Sorry, that's Women's AFCON. Yeah, no. And they're hosting another one in just over two months. I'll be back there again, doing the third Lafcon in like four years in Morocco. It is remarkable. So what kind of happened was, you know, Morocco is this, you know, for those who don't know, it's a kingdom, right?

8:57So it's ruled from the top. It's an authoritarian country in many ways, although it's kind of a, there is democracy, there's parliament and things like that. But so the king kind of decided and his government decided that football was going to be a huge platform for Morocco, both in terms of its soft power and kind of position in the continent and around the world. And Morocco is a football mad country, always has been, particularly men's football. But so part of that is they decided to invest a lot into women's football. And actually, one of the people who is responsible for that is the woman who runs the football league in Morocco.

9:28Her name is Khadija Ila. And she was the president of a tiny club in Layoun, which is in Western Sahara, right on the corner of Morocco, you know, Western Tire, obviously, there's a lot of political tension there as to whether, you know, it's an autonomous state or not. But she essentially went to the president of the FA and said, look, you need to invest in women's football, you need to, you need to invest a lot into this. And they essentially said, yeah, go on. And so the Moroccan Federation and government fully funds two tiers of women's football in Morocco. And when I say fully funds, they pay the salaries of every single player and staff member.

10:01So for every single top flight club, I think you get 13 players will get paid$500 a month. And I think the Moroccan minimum wage is$300 a month or 300 euros. And then you get another seven players, I think on your books that get$350. And then those are slightly reduced in the second division. Now the clubs can pay on top of that. So, you know, particularly players that as far, they make a good wage, you know, in the range of kind of 16,$1 ,700 a month, just in their basic salaries so they they are fairly well paid and it's it's led to this kind of rapid transformation where you suddenly have two fully professional leagues and you know it's the same not just players like staff like the federation pays for you to have head coach assistant coach fitness coach goalkeeping coach uh doctor i think it's like seven or eight staff members they provide buses they provide training so it's a really unique kind of ecosystem of football where it's like they have invested so much into it and now you know i i knew one guy who started a football team in Morocco was it 2019 2020 and then two years ago they made it to the CAF Champions League final like and that's kind of what you can do in Morocco if you want to invest in a woman's team so it is pretty remarkable and then same on the on the women's on the national side like they get access to the men's facilities which I know Rosella Ayan who plays for Morocco but played for the England youth teams kind of described it as St George's Park with palm trees it is world-class the facilities they get they get the same prize money as the men so you know even like the women's football team that reached the quarterfinals of the futsal world cup in the philippines i think they each got forty thousand dollars which again when you're thinking about this kind of the the cost of living in morocco is it's incredible so it's but it's kind of weird because all of this has happened in the last five six years so it's kind of you've suddenly become super professional but you've not had those stages up to that point so they're yes it's professional but the standard of the league still isn't amazing it's catching up and it's a it is really really fascinating country to follow in terms of their women's football is entirely unique as far as I'm aware.

11:58You know, you talked about it. It sounds really incredible, actually. You know, like you said, the speed of everything as well, given, you know, the size of the investment and the almost suddenness of the investment. I mean, obviously, we also saw Morocco in the Men's World Cup have a really, really good performance. I mean, it kind of feels like, and again, this is a very outside for you and I know you said that Morocco's always been a football crazy country but this feels like what some people might describe as a bit of a boom uh perhaps on on both sides really 100 % and and yeah the money they've invested in the men's side particularly the national team is is insane you know they kind of I mentioned that the training facilities they're incredible I think it's like four or five star hotels on site and it's this massive kind of it's beautiful the kind of training facilities they have.

12:48They've got this entire scouting network across Europe, you know, originally the men's, but also the women's now. They keep track of every single player with Moroccan heritage from the age of like 11 onwards, and they're in contact with their family. And yeah, the resources they've put into both the men and women's football is remarkable. And I think what kind of speaks volumes as well is, you know, I mentioned like the prize money, you know, for the AFCON, both teams reached the final. I think they both will get the same amount of prize money from the AFCON each player. I think it's$100 ,000 each.

13:18So there is a, culturally, there isn't a lot of interest in women's football in Morocco. That is where they need to catch up. And you speak to people and say, look, we're trying to get sponsors on board. We're trying to get, you know, more investment that's private and, you know, not be so reliant on the government because, you know, if that ever stops, we'll be in trouble. But the kind of commitment to invest it is huge. And when they succeed, when they do well, it is tremendously popular. I mean, the WAFCON, not the previous one, but the one before the 2022 final, when they reached the final unexpectedly for the first time and they played South Africa I mean I remember being at the stadium four hours early it's a 50 ,000 53 or something thousand cedar stadium there was probably about 80 ,000 people there trying to get in because they because they were giving out free tickets I think they didn't they underestimated how much interest there would be so I mean and that is one of the probably the best atmosphere I've ever been including the men's final that I was just at and it was it was electric so still some ways to go in terms of a lot of the other cultural things like building the interest and stuff like that but in terms of the actual professionalization and the standard it is so quickly developed and i think a lot of our listeners i mean obviously you described you know it's a kingdom and and everything like that morocco but i think a lot of our listeners will be curious about you know as far which stands for association sports of force forces armed royal so kind of the armed forces team really so how how exactly does that work Yes.

14:46And this is one of the reasons. So as far back, even before this huge investment from the government, where by dominating the Moroccan Women's League, they've won every title bar two, bar one, I think, since 2013, complete dominance. And a lot of that is because they are, so as far as the military team was founded just after independence, was founded in part by the king of Morocco at the time, now the father of the current king. And so, and literally up until even just over a decade ago, you couldn't play for the team unless you were a soldier. So you had to be a soldier. And I mean, they won, the men's team won the African champions league back in the, I think the seventies or eighties.

15:21And again, they're all soldiers. Now that has changed, so they can recruit players, but then those players have to, you know, essentially get soldier, like military contracts. You know, they have ranks, they have all this. And so that's what's allowed the women's team actually to be quite successful because they're not as, because it's not necessarily a privately owned club in the same sense. There wasn't the same kind of money focus so that they could say, actually with the women's side, we can afford to pay money to have a women's team, even if, you know, they're not going to make us money. And so even I think it was around 2011, when they started to really take women's football seriously.

15:55And that's when they started to dominate. And that's allowed them to keep dominating and to keep dominating even now when there's more money available. So they had a massive headstart and in part because of that military thing. So all the players who play for them have a military contract. And that was also part of the appeal saying look football is a very insecure job if you come play for as far you've got a job at the end of it with the military you can stay on and be you know you don't have to be a soldier but you can operate in the military so it's a very unique club and that's kind of is what has allowed it to be the dominant force in Moroccan football now that's changing because all these other clubs are starting to invest but that's what's allowed as far to become kind of the at the head of Moroccan football and you know really African football look they're not alone at the top of African football they're the current champions of the CAF champions league but they're probably the most consistent side over the last five years, along with Mamaluri sundowns in South Africa.

16:44Yeah, I'm sure a layperson would look at Aspar versus Arsenal and wonder about, yeah, the military connections of both teams, really, historically. Yeah, true. And, you know, you talked there about them being the dominant team. And again, you look at the Wikipedia honours section, it certainly looks like that. But, you know, you talked there a little bit about, it doesn't sound like it's a totally free run at everything for Asfar. What's the overall health of the league like and the competition for them? It is finally at a very good place. So even right now, they're not first in the Moroccan league.

17:23They're behind Widad, which is one of the two biggest men's clubs, them and Raja from Casablanca. And they've decided to start investing in their women's team because they had to. They got promoted to the top division one or two years ago. So this is the first time that Asfar have had anything like this, you know, that they've had any kind of competition for coming in first. And it's interesting to see because, you know, it's not just Widad, you know, their Fus Rabat, as far as local rivals are investing a lot, even more so than Asfar, actually. And so suddenly there is a lot of competition. I mentioned this other club, Sporting Casablanca, that was started a few years ago.

18:01They qualified for the Champions League and got farther than Asfar. So the league, you know, I would have said, if you asked me this three, four years ago, I mean, I remember going to watch one of their games, it would have been three years ago. They're playing at the home game against, I can't remember who, and they beat them 13-0. And, you know, that was very regular. That was very common. And even last season, they went unbeaten and won the league, and they still are unbeaten now. But there's other clubs that are doing very, very well, Widad, Fus, to name a few. And there's a few others that are kind of growing and building.

18:31So the league is changing rapidly. is becoming better, becoming more competitive. But I would have said up until this season, it wasn't very competitive at all. Asfar would just romp to title after title. But now actually they're seeing a lot more competition. Yeah, and I guess taking part in something like the Champions Cup as well in terms of gauging their level on a global scale, even measuring themselves against someone like Corinthians, I think probably be very useful for them. But in terms of, you know, obviously very dominant in Morocco, but in terms of AFCON more widely, you know, obviously you mentioned they won the African Champions League in 2022, which is why they're in the FIFA Champions Cup, I believe is their second CAF Champions League title.

19:18I mean, in terms of competition in Africa as a whole and the CAF Champions League, what does the competitive landscape there look like and who are the countries who really kind of, you look at and, you know, you look at the UEFA Champions League, you think it's going to be a team from England, Germany, Spain, France, women's football. What does the competition look like across AFCON more widely? So the Women's Champions League is very interesting because it's an eight-team tournament, so very small. It's held over just a couple of weeks, so it's more like an international tournament than a club tournament, but the qualification process is regional.

19:57And so what that means is you've got some heavyweight regions, So like Nigeria, Ghana, Cote d 'Ivoire are all in the same region. They all have quite strong club teams, but only one of them can qualify every year. It's the same in North Africa, right? Asfar have dominated the qualifying, but there's some other really good teams in Egypt. FC Massad did really well last year. They drew with Asfar in the group stage because they had an extra slot because Egypt was hosting the tournament. So in terms of like, it's hard to say that like regionally, because the qualifications are regional. So you only get one team.

20:27But the two teams that have dominated are Asfar and Mobility Sundowns. Sundowns, the South African team owned by the Motspe family. Patrice Motspe is the president of CAF, you know, mining billionaire. And it's similar to Asfar in the sense that they were ahead of the game in terms of investing in their women's team. But for them, it's the opposite. You know, it's entirely private. There's no kind of public funding going into that. It's just that family pumping in millions and millions of dollars into both their men's and women's teams. And so those two teams have really, really been the ones who have set the tone in terms of, you know, I think every single final of the five years they've had this tournament, one of them has been in the final.

21:06They've won it four times between them. The last one coming in 2024 actually was a big surprise as far lost in the final to Tipe Mazembe from DRC. And actually, ironically, they're coached by Lamia Boumeri, who's a Moroccan coach. So even there, you can see the kind of Moroccan influence in terms of where a lot of that domination is. And, you know, Mamelodi Sundown is the coach that won them their two titles, Jerry Shabalala. He was caught up in a bit of a scandal in South Africa. And so then he was immediately hired by a Moroccan club. So like they're kind of really setting the standard Morocco as a nation in terms of the club football.

21:39On a national level, yeah, it's kind of the characters we see at the World Cup, right? It's your, you know, your Nigeria. They set the standard in terms of just the player quality. Morocco, very much the same in terms of the investment, not necessarily the individual players. And South Africa are a bit of a different one because they're a mess behind the scenes. They're being very badly treated by their federation, but still have a great core of players and probably the best coach on the continent. And then, of course, Zambia, when you have players like Barbara Banda, Rachel Kundinangi, Grace Chanda, you know, they're always a threat.

22:11So those are kind of the big ones, and they'll be the ones who will be competing for the WAFCON in a couple of months. And in terms of just last couple, really focusing in on Asfar now, you know, without going mega tactical deep dive. I mean, how would you expect them to approach a game like Arsenal in the semifinal and looking at their squad, heavily Moroccan kind of squad? Like, are there any players to watch out for as well? Yeah, so, I mean, it'll be interesting for me to watch because obviously this is the first game probably in the history of the club where they are big underdogs, you know, where they'll have to play defensively.

22:47And that will be an interesting test in and of itself. You know, this team provides the backbone of the Moroccan national team. And I think that's one of the kind of interesting things about them is you have five, six, seven, eight players who have a good chance of starting for the Moroccan national team. And players who've been through that entire journey of the Moroccan national team, you know, reaching two AFCON finals, reaching the World Cup and getting through the group stage. So Khadija Ramichi is one of the best goalkeepers on the continent. You know, and then you've got the back four essentially are all play for the national team.

23:16But in terms of players to keep an eye out for, you know, Moroccan football is kind of takes a lot of pride in these really small techie kind of midfielders, wingers. And that's the stars of this team. So the two players who really have been the stars throughout the years of this team are Sanam Sudi and Fatima Tagnaut. And Sudi was the player of the tournament, both in the Champions League and in the Moroccan League last season. very very small incredibly technically gifted like kind of very much a freestyler and same with tag now a bit bit more direct a bit more pacey but again always wants to cut in and whipping crosses we've been shots now it'll be interesting to see how they line up because will they play very defensively with a you know four five one will they play a four two three one which is what they tend to like to play with like anissa lahmari kind of pushing on in the midfield so for me that is where it'll be interesting because this is a team that wants the ball right this is a team that dominates and that's the football they've played it's the only football they played and I think where they'll get unstuck against Arsenal because I think technically they're at a similar level it's the physicality like they're just not used to playing against players who are playing elite European physical football week in week out so both the pace and the strength and I think that's where they might get bullied and it's the same Msoudi plays a lot for Asfar she's the star of the team but when it comes to the national team she actually comes off the bench a lot more And I think it's that same element of like, she just can't physically keep up with a lot of these kind of, you know, whether it's Nigeria or whether it's playing against Germany, you know, as Morocco found out in the World Cup, they got hammered by them, even though they somehow got through the group stages over Germany, which was brilliant to see.

24:50Yeah, so I think that's for me where it's going to be an interesting kind of how they adapt to playing as a defensive team, because it's just not something they've ever had to do in the history of the club. You know, they've never had to play like that. yeah yeah really interesting and and i guess just as a final one like you know what do you think as far are looking to get out of the fifa champions cup because obviously it's two games um irregardless against continental champions um you know are they it is obviously it's going to be useful them to gauge their level globally i guess but do they harbor ambition like like i'd say realistic ambitions of perhaps getting to the final or is this about competing is this about getting their name on the map what would you say like are the are the main kind of realistic aims that as far might talk about behind closed doors yeah so look yeah when you speak to them you know on record everyone's like yeah of course you know we're gonna try and compete with our story you speak people off the record it's like look we know we're we know we're almost certainly going to lose could we do something amazing potentially get a win yeah maybe but they're not expecting to win I think is the honest answer I think for them like you said it's more of like a measuring stick a yardstick of saying look this is where we're at this is where we want to be because you know they want to be there they want to be at the same level as Arsenal they want to be you know playing at the level of your you know your friends your French clubs your Spanish clubs your English clubs.

26:26And, and I think for them, that's a lot of what it's about. And it's about boosting their own profile. But, but also, again, because the league is invested in from a public standpoint, there isn't the same kind of, I don't want to say selfish, but like, not everything is orientated around the team. So even when you speak to people, it's like, okay, how do we represent Morocco? Well, how do we make sure that we've got Moroccan players signing for European clubs off the back of this? And, you know, speaking to some of the people, particularly people who run the league, you know for them it's like we want we want our players to actually leave our league but we to we only want them to do that if they're going to play for better teams we don't want them to be leaving for money we don't want them to be leaving because they need to you know support their family whatever so we only want to be seeing them going to you know spain england france and the u.s i mean those are the four countries that were told to me it's like that's the market we want to be selling our players to because for them again the ultimate goal is making the national team better so for as far it is very much a yardstick i think for the rest of africa is like i know these fifa competitions the club world cup aren't a big deal in europe they're a tremendously big deal in africa and the men's side as well and i think for them it's kind of the excitement is like okay this is where we're at and then when we actually have the actual club world cup in whenever it is 2027 next year uh then yeah i'm not i'm not sure even fifa might be 2028 i can't remember they keep delaying it yeah yeah exactly but when that happens as far will almost certainly be there and i think this champions cup is seen is like all right this is where we need to get to if we want to actually compete because that's what they do want to do that ambition is there to to compete with the very best in the future that's really interesting what you're saying as well about not losing players you know just for money again that's a challenge in brazil a lot of brazilian players will have gone to places like China, Korea, which are not necessarily the top, top leagues, and that has an impact on the national team as well.

28:23I mean, just in closing, would third place, let's say the two semifinals go how I'm sure the bookies will think that they'll go, and you get a third place between Asfar and Corinthians, would they harbour realistic ambitions of coming third? Yeah, I think so. I genuinely think they would see themselves as, okay, yeah, obviously Gotham and Arsenal, like I said, the physical kind of element of it, they're going to be on another level. We just, you know, we can't compete. But Corinthians, I think is, you know, you know far more about them than I do. But I think they're who as far would be saying right, they're the ones we can compete with.

29:00They're the ones we can take on. But I think this is what the beauty of the Champions Cup is, right? And this kind of, again, the FIFA Club World Cup and things like that doesn't really work in the men's side because European football just dominates. but actually in the women's game we don't really know like you know i'm super excited to see gotham play arsenal in the final even if you know i want as far to be there because we just don't know how good these teams are compared to each other so i think there is an element of that it's like we we don't know what to expect even against corinthians we don't know if we'll beat them we don't know if they're out they'll smash us you know look as far definitely i think of the four the outsiders there's no doubt about that and i think they're aware of that but i think it's they see it as kind of a free hit and a chance to see to see where they are compared to these other teams yeah agreed that that's one of the things that really fascinates me about the tournament which is why i'm interested in all of the games and not just the ones that arsenal in ali i kept you longer than i said i would and that's just because this has been so fascinating and i'm sure for our listeners as well would have will have learned a lot um do you want to tell people where they can find your work yeah i mean i'm i'm a free-lapse journalist so you know i'm working for the i'm doing a bbc piece for this tournament and various other places but if you really want to follow my stuff i'm on sub stack and youtube on the whistle podcast again cover only african football i'll be at the wefcon and also shout out if you want to watch the moroccan's league calf champions league it's all free to watch so it's all you know the moroccan women's national league is on fifa plus you can watch all their games the the calf champions league is usually put on youtube on calf's tv channels so like this football is accessible i appreciate there's too much football in the world right now as it is but i i would say go out have a watch see what it's like yeah and we're probably coming to a stage in england the wsl where it's perhaps becoming slightly less accessible a bit more paywalled um but you know all really in the interest of creating revenue in the game but ali again thanks so much for joining us that was fascinating thanks for having me okay so we know for sure that arsenal are going to play as far in the fifa champions cup we don't know for sure that arsenal are going to play gotham be it the third place playoff i think that would be a bit of a shock or the final however obviously we have to be professional and record and presume that that might happen and really give this tournament the kind of preview i think it deserves and to talk with me about Gotham FC nobody better than uh Sports Illustrated's uh Jenna Tinelli.

31:31Jenna also has a sub stack about Gotham FC called Jenna's Sources. Jenna thanks so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me uh it's been a long time coming that I wanted to come on here so I'm very glad that this worked out. Yeah I was we were originally going to have you on to talk about Jenna Neiswanger about a year ago and couldn't make it happen, which actually is quite kind of prophetic about the whole transfer, to be honest. And I think I join all Arsenal fans in just saying sorry about that. I really don't know what happened with that transfer. A real head scratcher on every level.

32:09Yeah, I think it is for Arsenal fans as well. But obviously here to talk about Gotham, who I think it's quite safe to say I've had a really whirlwind couple of years and, you know, qualified for this by winning the inaugural CONCACAF Champions League through winning the NWSL in 2023. so then there's the CONCACAF Champions League in 2024 which starts with a group stage and then a knockout stage in 2025 and that's before we get to this year's NWSL. It feels a bit from the outside like quite a strange setup given you know Gotham's run up to this competition and given the kind of time span it's happened over.

32:53Oh it's been so bizarre and you know I've had conversations with current players, former players, coaches about how almost a completely different team that played in that group stage in 2024 actually was on the team that won the CONCACAF cup in 2025. It's just, it's very, it's just a very strange thing that happens. And, you know, a lot of that is because the NWSL plays on a summer calendar rather than a winter calendar. And so that's part of it and and some of the fifa scheduling is like a bit odd so gotham has a very congested schedule and they have had had one since 2024 so been a bit bit weird but i'm excited to see what they can do in this tournament yeah and i mean it's it's quite it's quite interesting as well looking at the the various teams in this competition corinthians dominate south america and have done for several years as far quite dominant in African football I mean most people would be surprised that Arsenal are here not based on their history but you'd probably be expecting Barcelona or Lyon but obviously CONCACAF I mean it's bigger it's obviously very very big you know and given like the parity in the NWSL as well where more teams can win it and the playoff system and all of that it feels again for from a european perspective it feels like that this could have been any number of nwsl clubs who are actually playing in this um given the kind of parity of the league compared to europe and south america i mean how would gotham seen when it's you know come to when it comes to being like the conca-caf and i guess the nwsl representative in a tournament like this yeah That's a great question.

34:44And, you know, I also don't want to write off League MX in Mexico. You know, some of those teams really gave the NWSL sides runs for their money as well. There was a penalty shootout, wasn't there? Yes. So, you know, some good competition in CONCACAF, I think people don't realize, because some of those leagues are just not as widely talked about and accessible, quite frankly. But back to your question, I think in the NWSL, it's kind of reached this era where there doesn't really, other than the Kansas City current that, you know, up and above, beyond expectations, won the shield with the most days remaining in a schedule that's ever happened.

35:29But when you factor in that playoff situation that the NWSL has, there's really no team that I think people are going, like, for example, going into this next season and being like, oh, this is the team that if they don't do it, then like that's crazy. You know, I think there's a number of teams, Gotham, Kansas City, Washington Spirit, Orlando Pride, and probably a few surprises because when Gotham won their first NWSL championship in 2023, they were the last seed and people didn't really think they'd do it. And then coming into the playoffs this year, this past year in 2025, they were also the last seed and they won.

36:08So I think, you know, Gotham's kind of been a funny team in the sense that they, a little bit inconsistent in their results, but do really well in these playoff style tournaments and these knockout games. And so I think there is a strong inclination for NWSL fans that Gotham could come out victorious in this competition just based on how they perform in knockout football. But then again, Arsenal does the same. So hopefully, you know, I mean, for you and me, hopefully if these two face off in the final, I think it's going to be a really, really interesting, fun matchup. yeah it does sound quite similar to be honest where you kind of think in a normal league season Arsenal I wouldn't say let themselves down but seem to have underperformed but then you know pull the Champions League out the bag and you know we my co-host Jamie and I we talked about this a little bit when it happened on the main show just because it was so extraordinary but you know Gotham winning the playoffs this year I mean do you want to just talk through how crazy that was did they finish 29 points behind current oh i you know let me literally pull do you have that up because i i forgot once the season's over i like wash it out of my brain to make room for all the new stuff but uh yes so uh gotham finished the season with 36 points and kansas city finished with 65 now for context the next closest team to current was spirit with 44.

37:42So that's only what 12 points between Gotham and second place. So 12 points between eight and two, which is not that much. But that gap that Kansas City had was just crazy. And, you know, Gotham was only one point ahead of the ninth place team who did not, you know, they did not make that eight team cutoff only one point ahead of North Carolina courage. So they had a pretty rough stretch in the middle of the season, a bunch of losses and a few draws and it, they, they had to really string together a bunch of wins and they they did and that's really the magic of the nwsl yeah absolutely and again um i'm good friends with uh several members of the kansas city gooners um several of whom are current season ticket holders so sorry for bringing that up again but for gotham to finish eighth and then beat the team that finished first by an absolute mile um just just great drama really i personally i'm a big fan of drama of playoffs um you know you you mentioned it a little bit earlier like the team has changed quite a lot um since 2023 and 2024 and from what i was kind of reading before the playoffs and everything 2025 was really considered a transition season um for gotham given some of the changes maybe some injuries as well what kind of shape are gotham in coming into we'll go into the prep and the fact it's off season later but you know the the squad the roster what kind of shape is it in at the moment yeah so there's actually you know as you mentioned 2025 was seen as a little bit of a transitional year for the team they had a lot of turnover coming out of 2024 into 2025 so there was significant concern.

39:29You know, no Jenna Dyson or no Crystal Dunn, you know, a lot of names that were leaving the team. However, they still managed to win the championship. You know, they lost Tanda Davidson to an ACL injury. But I think that with this team going into 2026, because it is a little bit more cohesive, you know, they didn't have the same amount of turnover and they had a very short off season. I mean, most of the players were gone for maybe four weeks before they reported back in January 2nd. I think it's going to look pretty similar to what they saw in the 2025 season. And I'm actually just trying to pull up the roster right here, and here it is.

40:15So basically everything is the same, except they've signed a couple of new rookies. So I'm really interested to see how that goes. the rookie class last year for Gotham was incredible. Lily Real, who won Rookie of the Year, left back, and Sarah Schapansky, midfielder, who I believe should have been a candidate for Rookie of the Year. But it's hard to get two players on the same team in those categories, so I understand. So Gotham's done a really good job of developing rookies, so I'm excited to see these rookies. They also recalled a couple of players that they had out on loan. with the USL, Fort Lauderdale United.

40:53So the USL, for those who don't know, it's considered the same division as the NWSL. It's like a D1 league, but really it's kind of the way we colloquially think of it. It's kind of below it when we think of maybe a ladder, just in the way we've seen player movement so far. So those players, they have not played with Gotham yet, But they are coming back, these two players. So we'll see how they fit in to the team. And you've written an article which was coming out the day we're recording. I appreciate people will be listening to this a few days after in Sports Illustrated about Gotham's preparation.

41:36Because obviously the handicap for them is that this is offseason. And in fact, you know, the playoffs were not that long ago. you know I think I read that they'd gone to Spain first before coming to England can you talk a little bit about the preparation and getting up to speed for what's going to be an off-season tournament for a team that's played a lot of football over the last couple of years oh yes so Gotham had as long as an NWSL season as is possible by making it all the way to the championship game so that was the end of November the week before Thanksgiving then the reporting day for camp in spain was january 2nd so they basically just had december uh off so they were in spain doing pre-season in spain from january 2nd and then this past wednesday um so that would have been the 21st of january they went to england uh now they all the team told me that the fifa I guess expectation is that teams arrive on location match day minus three.

42:44But Gotham was very adamant about having a full week of being able to get acclimated and practice and have their bodies recover from the travel. And they're being very mindful of the fact that they had such a short offseason and that the recovery period for their players was as short as it could possibly be. So I think they're taking a lot of precautions in what they're doing. So Gotham's there, they're training, and I think it was a smart decision. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I wanted to ask about the coach as well. Some listeners might know him because he was at Tottenham in England for a long time.

43:27Juan Carlos Amoros, who's overseen, you know, this period we're really talking about, the 2023 championship win onwards. He's kind of overseen all of it. What can you tell us about Juan Carlos Amoros, the job he's done, maybe the style of football as well that Gotham play under him? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he came in and completely transformed this team and they liked him so much. I think he signed like a four or five year extension, like something crazy that we've not really seen in the NWSL before. So I think a clear indicator that Gotham is really happy with the job he's doing. And I think two championships, the CONCACAF Cup, you know, getting to the FIFA tournament, you know, he's definitely proving that, you know, he is the coach for Gotham.

44:12um the the main aspect of how Juan likes to play I would say two things to look out for uh the first is the the high press Gotham will high press high press high press and try to win that ball back up high um and that kind of leads into the secondary thing to point out is his use of the keeper um it's more of I guess what folks call a sweeper keeper um you know sometimes you'll see Ann Ketchenberger basically in midfield and you're like, what the hell are you doing? But they really use her as, as, you know, a fifth defender starting play from the back and, you know, making sure that those, those balls are one on those high areas.

44:54So those, those, I think are the two, the two main aspects that, that Gotham do. Another thing that they do a lot is just because you think a player is playing in one position, does it mean they're going to be playing that position the entire game on the pitch? There is a lot of shifting around on the pitch. They have a really good system of, you know, how they change their formation, whether they're attacking, whether they're defending. If somebody has to track back to defend, who, you know, goes up higher to, you know, fill in, so to speak, for that player. So, you know, in training, there's a very big attention put on, you know, being able to step up and step into certain roles that maybe you're not technically playing to cover all of those areas and make sure everything's covered um so you know people you know i remember when um gotham played uh they played chelsea right in that like weird friendly a couple of years ago um and it was during a break so we actually didn't have a lot of the like the u.s national team players were all gone it was like a very strange time the game was so funny because like people were just like subbing in and out of the back so there was actually no rules it was hysterical but I talked to one of the girls who they had called in for this as like a national team replacement player.

46:11And she had not, she had played for Gotham before, but not under one. She had since retired and they brought her back. And she was saying how one of the things that stuck out to her the most was like, yeah, she's a midfielder, but during the game, she played forward. She played defender. You know, she was really shifting around on the pitch just depending on what was happening. And I thought that was, that was really, really interesting. So, so that's a, I'm going to respond in a nutshell. yeah that's that's really interesting as well because again one of the things i heard about arsenal's interest in jenna nicewanger is that she was kind of a midfielder converted into a left back kind of left wing back kind of but you know just having like spaces around the left like quite generally speaking um shame we just didn't see it and it's really interesting what you say about and katrin berger as well because that that's not the goalkeeper we saw at chelsea i don't think Like with a goalkeeper, I saw at Chelsea was very traditional, amazing shot stopper, great at catching crosses.

47:11But I always thought one of the reasons Chelsea replaced her was because of, you know, her distribution and her ability to play out. So it's so interesting for me anyway, to hear you say that about Anne Katrin Berger. I mean, looking at the kind of the Gotham roster, as it were, you know, I was going to ask you for standout players. I mean, I'm looking at the squad and names jump out like Tierna Davidson, Rose Lavelle, Jadon Shaw, Esther Gonzalez as well, Stryker. Most of our listeners will be very familiar with Jess Carter and Katrin Berger. I mean, who do you really see as Gotham's kind of key players, even if you just want to say your favourites?

47:53Yeah, no, it's great. Well, so I just with Esther, her partner, and she just had a baby. Congratulations to them. So I've been kind of bugging Gotham. You know, is she there? Is she coming back? Is she going to play in the tournament? And so I don't have like a very clear answer on that right now. But I would definitely pick her. I mean, she was a candidate for the golden boot in the NWSL. I think she had, you know, she had an injury, missed a couple games. Gotham had a rough patch. So she ended up being a few goals behind, unfortunately. but she's just come alive in the NWSL and has been their main outlet for scoring goals.

48:30Then, of course, as you mentioned, they brought in Jaden Shaw, who, in my opinion, is the reason, the difference maker in Gotham winning the championship last year. She's just an incredible young talent with a nose for goal, great set piece taker, just excellent technique, speedy. you know she's she's the full package um tina davidson um she's there with the team i don't know the extent that she's training with them yet i've been also pestering them to give me more updates about her her availability my gut tells me she probably won't be playing in this tournament um but i guess you never know my gut tells me probably not but when she's back and she's healthy she's she's going to be great um you know as as we're talking about the versatility of of gotham players such as you know back in the day jenna neiswanger lily real was also a converted left back um she she was center back so you know not quite a midfielder as jenna was um and then converted out to left back and became rookie of the year so she's somebody who they run the attack through she's just been a really good defensively for gotham um and then somebody i want to point out who i think doesn't get well emily sonnet there's just so many emily sonnet is just an incredible center back and she's just such a stalwart for Gotham.

49:47We're a real workhorse. And then the last person I want to talk about is Mandy Freeman. This is a name that folks might not be as familiar with. She's not a national team player. She's been, she's the longest tenured player on Gotham dating back to when they were sky blue FC. They used to be called. I believe she was drafted in 2017 or 2018. I forget exactly when she was drafted. she can play as a center back or as an outside back typically she plays on the right if they shift her out out there to outside back and she also captained the team during their championship match in last November so just like a great solid player who is a true leader on that team and definitely one that you know I suggest the the soccer nerds pay attention to because she's also So, you know, she's definitely an underappreciated player on that team.

50:38Yeah, I see a lot of leadership in that team. I think when I look at some of those names, it's a shame about Tina Davidson as well. I'd say like Arsenal's equivalent, Leah Williamson, won't be available as well, which just feels like a real shame. And that kind of just brings me to my final question, Jenna, which is, you know, again, not making any assumptions or it could be the third place playoff, But the kind of the potential for a WSL versus NWSL matchup, which to me, I really want and think women's football will explore more and more ways for these matches to happen competitively. There will be calendar challenges like we went and played Spirit preseason 18 months ago.

51:22But obviously Arsenal were out of season and Spirit were in season. And, you know, like there are challenges. I think that was the same period that Chelsea and Gotham played. Yes. I think that was the same period. Yes, yes. Yes, it was. Those were fun. They were like silly. To me, they were silly, you know? Like, it was just kind of like a fun way to see the matchup. But like you're saying, they weren't true showings of what these teams can do against each other. Yeah, exactly. And I guess, you know, for me growing up, I was just used to the best, well, before it was even called the WSL, the best English players going to the US.

51:56That was just what happened. particularly at Arsenal. Most of our legendary players had at least small spells in the US. Some, like Kelly Smith, had more significant spells over there. But obviously, we're beginning to see a bit of a change there, but players still going in both directions, as Gotham themselves show. They've got a couple of players from Chelsea. I mean, it feels like WSL and NWSL, in terms of overall strength of league, feel like that they're two that are kind of vying for you know to puff their chests out and say the best league in the world I mean what and you know obviously very very current this higher impact player rule and Trinity Rodman and and all of that but what's the feeling in the US at the moment about a potential competitive matchup between you know a big NWSL and WSL team?

52:53Yeah, great question. And one that I've been asking. So I when I this article in Sports Illustrated, I spoke to Gotham GM, Yael Averbush West about it. You know, former former player herself really helped turn this team around. And I asked her, and I've got some outtake quotes that didn't make it to the article that I plan to put on my sub stack. So some of this isn't in the article. That's why I hit my word limit. But I said to her, you know, obviously not taking Corinthians for granted because they're an excellent side. And I know for a fact, Gotham is not taking them for granted whatsoever.

53:28That will be a very competitive match. But, you know, let's say Arsenal and Gotham do make the final is a very highly anticipated matchup. And I asked her, I said, do you feel that this is vying to see which is the better league? You know, do you think that that's what this will show? And, you know, she she basically said, you know, obviously that's a question on their minds as well. And they take it very seriously that Gotham is going to be representing the NWSL in trying to achieve that. So in a way, yes, I think people are kind of going to look at this and say, oh, Gotham One, NWSL is a better league, you know, or Arsenal wins.

54:08Well, you know, at the NWSL, it's the WSL. I think, you know, and Yael also said this to me as well, is, you know, the winner of this competition is going to be, you know, they're considered like the intercontinental champion, but they're going to be considered the best club in the world. Like, that's what this cup means. So I think, you know, over here, like it's being taken like pretty, pretty seriously by the club, for sure, by the fans. you know they they want to see the results of this um now it's still you're always going to have that issue of one team being in a different place in the season than the other team because of the way the calendars are so there is still that like weird like gothamism in like offseason preseason postseason um you know arsenal's more in the middle of their season so it is still kind of like that weird mismatch so i think you know that's something to keep in mind but i assume that both of these teams are going to take their responsibilities very seriously in this because it It is the question du jour.

55:06Yeah, absolutely. I mean, personally, I can't wait. I just think it's something really, really different for women's football, for Arsenal as well. Arsenal in a period at the moment where they're playing Manchester United and Chelsea and Man City and everyone's a little bit kind of tense. And I see this as like a really nice palate cleanser, but hopefully a really nice occasion for women's football as well. Jenna, thanks so much for joining us. 12 months later than we initially planned. But next time, Gotham or Arsenal trade a player, maybe we'll talk again, and hopefully it will go a bit better than it did for poor Jenna.

55:44Well, hopefully her loan period is really good, and I'm excited to see what she does. Yeah, thank you for having me. I can't wait for this competition and see what happens. May the best team win. Yeah, indeed. And like I said, at the top, Jenna writes about NWSL for Sports Illustrated, but has her own sub stack dedicated to Gotham FC called Jenna's Sources, all of which I thoroughly recommend you to follow. And we will be back right after this.

56:14So as I said at the top, I'm going to talk a little bit about Corinthians here. This is going to be nowhere near as long, detailed or colourful as what you've just heard from Ali and Jenna about Gotham and Aspar. But like I said, I felt be remiss to leave Corinthians out, really, particularly because they are the club of South America in women's football terms. So Corinthians dominate Brazilian football and they dominate South American football in women's football. They've won six Copper Libertadores. they won it in 2017 2019 2021 and they've won the last three in 2023 24 and 25 in brazil they won the league title in 2018 2020 21 22 23 24 and 25 so this is a team that's very very used to winning and dominating both um you know both in terms of the continent and brazil itself now corinthians haven't had an awful lot of competition, as what I've just said would kind of spell out.

57:19However, that is starting to change a bit. So Palmeiras, who are big rivals actually of Corinthians in Sao Paulo, they're beginning to invest a little bit and they've got players like Biazana Reto coming back. And in fact, I think it was in December, Corinthians played Palmeiras and lost 5-1 in the state championship. So there's a team called Ferroviaria as well, who are investing and doing quite well, Cruzeiro as well. So there's beginning to be a little bit more competition, but they're still big dogs in Brazil and South America. Now in the 2025 Copa Libertadores, just to go through some kind of key players, Gabi Zanotti was the top scorer in the tournament with six goals.

58:06And usually, like it's true that their best players will generally move to Europe, But when Brazilian internationals in particular return to Brazil from Europe or the US, you get a lot of Brazilian players going to NWSL. Corinthians tends to be where they land, for example. So, for example, they've got Andrea Alves, who played for Barcelona and Roma. They've got Ivano Fuso, who played for Manchester United and Birmingham City. their captain is the legendary Brazil left back Tamires who played for Fortuna Horing in Europe as well, she has 148 caps for Brazil she's 37 or 38 years old now but one of their centre-halves is Erika who was at PSG for four years, they've also got Duda Sampaio who's 24 years old and a Brazilian international and that's relatively unusual actually for a 24-year-old Brazilian international to still be in Brazil usually a starter for the Brazilian national team at that age would be in Europe or the US, but Duda Sampaio is still there.

59:11And that tells you a lot about Corinthians pulling power as well. But, you know, the best Brazilian players that are not in Europe or the US are generally at Corinthians. Now, they're currently coached by a guy called Lucas Piquinato. And to be honest, it's really difficult to get a sense of how good he is. It's a bit like, you know, when Barcelona hire a new coach, it's very difficult to really get a grip on how good they are as a coach because I could manage Barcelona and think probably win 36 league games. And it's pretty similar Corinthians. But again, to give you an idea of the stature, their previous coach was Alias.

59:53Alias, sorry, he is now the coach of the Brazilian national team. So again, that kind of shows you the pipeline from Corinthians to the Brazilian national team. You know, they are the club in Brazil and in South America as well. Now, I said at the beginning, teams are beginning to compete with them a little bit more in Brazil. And that's true in the Libertadores as well. So in 2025, they needed penalties to beat Felviaria in the semifinal. They also needed penalties to win the final against Deportivo Cali. so you know they're not thrashing teams in the final stages there there's a little bit more competition coming up um you know i mentioned that they lost 5-1 to palmaris recently was a bit of a shock result but palmaris are a team who can definitely give them a game now what's interesting and this goes into some of what ali said about as far as well in south america corinthians are very attacking high pressed uh high pressing team they have a very strong set piece threat But Tamires has a great corner delivery on her left foot.

1:00:58But again, how all this translates against a team like Gotham remains to be seen because Corinthians are not going to have the physical and talent advantages that they're used to. So do they go out and play like they always play or do they play a little bit more defensively? I'm willing to bet it would be more the former against Gotham. And we probably won't see such a high press against a team who, even by NWSL standards, are very gifted in the press and very physically kind of superior. So that's, you know, much like Aspar, that's going to be a really interesting dynamic. How are these teams who are used to dominating, used to winning every week, who are now going to be underdogs, how are they going to attack that?

1:01:40I think the other, you know, to sound a cultural note here, Corinthians will take this very, very seriously. Any competition that pits Brazilian teams against Europeans and Americans is taken very, very seriously. So the Olympics, for example, even in football, taken seriously. Like Brazil is a massive country. It's got a population of about 210 million. And I'd say culturally feels kind of ignored and in the shade a little bit of Europe and the US. Anything that gives them the chance to compete with Europe and the US, particularly in football, where Brazil are very, very strong, tends to be relished.

1:02:18And I think Corinthians and their fans will really take this seriously and really take it on. Those of you who watch men's football might remember Corinthians playing Chelsea in the 2012 Club World Cup final and how many Corinthians fans were there, how seriously they took it and they won that game. So they'll take this hugely seriously. But in terms of their key players, Gabi Zanotti is their big threat up front. They're very good creative players like Vic Albuquerque Kiondo de Sampaio, you know, Tamirez, she's 37 now, but she's been the best left back in South America for a long time. Very energetic and overlapping again, how that maps onto playing a team like Gotham.

1:03:01I'm not quite sure because of the, you know, the physical and quality gap that's probably going to be there. Their goalkeeper, Leticia, made some very high profile saves in those penalty shootouts I mentioned in both the Copa Libertadores semi-final and final. I'm sure she'll be busy as well. And obviously they've got a top class centre-back in Erika and she's probably going to be a lot busier in this game than she usually is. But, you know, she's seen this sort of level and she's played here a lot. So she'll be a very, very key player. And, you know, Corinthians won't come to play. You know, they're not here for a jolly.

1:03:35They're going to really go for this and they're going to put everything on the line against Gotham. But I think if everything goes to form, you're going to get a Corinthians Aspar probably third place playoff and that will probably give you a better idea in terms of gauging both of those teams levels and obviously with the Club World Cup coming up you know those teams will really want to see what their level is and get used to playing teams like this so that's Corinthians like I said a little bit more of a bullet point overview there compared to what Ali and Jenna gave you but we really hope you enjoyed this episode I'm really looking forward to this tournament I really felt that we should do this for this tournament and go into some real detail and really try and get to know the opponents and the other teams playing because I think it's something quite special and unique.

1:04:24And I'm a real fan of this type of format in women's football. And we wanted to give all of the competing teams really, other than Arsenal, who, if you're listening to this, you know inside out anyway, you know, give them the platform. And well, I say give them the platform. They don't need us for a platform. That sounds a bit patronising. I mean, in terms of like, we really want, I really wanted to find out a bit more about some of these teams and, and really help others to find that out as well. So I hope you enjoyed that episode and we'll be back. Jamie and I will record a podcast on Monday after the tournament is over, kind of picking over the bones.

1:05:00And obviously that will have an almost exclusively Arsenal kind of spotlight on it.

1:05:12Thank you.