Arsenal Women Arsecast Episode 159: The Champs take the first leg against Chelsea

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0:44hello and welcome to the arsenal women ask cast and askblog.com with me your host tim stillman looking back at tuesday nights 3-1 champions league quarterfinal first leg victory over Chelsea. Obviously, there is a second leg to come next week at Stamford Bridge on Wednesday night, and Arsenal will be taking a two-goal lead into that game. We agreed before the result that we really had to do a podcast on this game. We're not going to do questions in the second half like we usually do, so it'll be a little bit shorter than the usual Monday show. However, we couldn't not discuss a game of this magnitude.

1:22And here to do that with us as ever is our co-host Jamie Spanger. Jamie, how did you enjoy that game? Let's start there. I guess just from an objective spectacle point of view, I thought it was a terrific game.

1:36Jamie: Hi, Tim. It's great to see you. It's great to see you after a great couple of months of being on this podcast as an Arsenal journalist and fan. But watching this morning's game for me this morning at 7 a.m., so a nice time, respectable hour, I thought it was such a good game and for a neutral I would say it's one of the most exciting Champions League games we've had this season like the quality maybe wasn't like incredibly high but the goals were world-class and I think just two good teams battling it out two teams that are quite depleted with injuries as well to some key figures as well so got to see some rotation but I think yeah this was a really tasty tie and some of the goals that we'll get into were just world class so a very good spectacle a great crowd the Emirates crowd what I heard on the television made massive noise.

2:18Jamie: We're talking about it off camera, about how that kind of lower tier sellout or close to sellout makes the atmosphere amazing, just like it did in the quarterfinal against Real Madrid last year. So yeah, Tim, from a spectacle point of view, great. We'll get into the football, but yeah, great result. Yeah, I think this fixture is the flag bearer for women's football in Europe in terms of a rivalry because a lot of the rivalries kind of transplanted from the men's game or the local rivalries just aren't the same, I think, in women's football. I mean, tonight we're going to have Real Madrid-Barcelona.

2:49I just don't view that as a rivalry yet, to be quite honest. And, you know, some of the other games, it's not, you know, you've got Wolfsburg-Bayern have developed like a nice little kind of rivalry in Germany, but that's very up and down. I think these two teams, they're always pretty close together. There's a lot of kind of good tension in there. They're always very close in quality. And I think they pretty much always deliver in terms of how good the games are. But from an Arsenal perspective, we already knew Renee Slager said she would not involve any of the Asian Cup players. I thought they might be on the bench just to take seats on the bench, to be honest, which, you know, Chelsea put Ellie Carpenter on the bench.

3:31I think they had no intention of using her. I think it's just because they had a lot of empty spaces and felt she might as well sit down in a jacket and watch the game from a better vantage point. But I think we knew, and we discussed this on the last pod, that when Steiner came off on 60 Minutes against West Ham, that told us she was going to start. I guess the only, I don't want to say surprise selection, I think that's overstating it, but Beth Mead starting ahead of Olivia Smith. And I think that's a surprise, not because of Beth Mead, but because of Olivia Smith's form. Now, Jamie Olivia wasn't in the open training session on Monday, and Rene said that wasn't an injury.

4:09That was down to individualised recovery. But, I mean, it could be that it's about recovery and they don't want to overextend her. But I feel she must be carrying a little something for her to not have started this game.

4:25Jamie: Certainly. I think that there's a little bit being hidden there, which is fair enough. But in the form that Olivia Smith is in over the last couple of weeks, since the return of the international break, she's been phenomenal against LCL and both West Ham. So I do think she starts this game alongside Chloe Kelly if she is completely fit. But then you look ahead at the block, Tim, and it's a must-win North London derby this weekend. And then it's obviously Chelsea again at Stamford Bridge and really packed out schedule following that. So I can understand why that rotation was made. It was one that I think maybe frustrated or made a couple of Arsenal fans nervous, including myself, because of the form that she's been in.

4:59Jamie: But when you know that she's in the squad and there's a very high likelihood of her coming off the bench, it's just it's worth playing Beth Mead because Beth Mead is, again, a player that can do a job and a player that can do a job against Chelsea as well. So, yeah, one that didn't make me didn't make me too excited because of the form Smith's in, but one that I think is a very necessary change and a good change for Rene to make going forward. Yeah, I guess we've got to take into account as well. Olivia likes you missed the international break with quite a nasty concussion for Canada. She didn't go to the She Believes Cup, so I'm speculating, no idea whether that's a factor.

5:35But like you say, Beth often delivers in this fixture, played very well in the game between the teams in January. But I think one of the things I think that's so exciting and unpredictable about Arsenal-Chelsea games is both teams make little adaptions, they make little changes, and then on a given day, one of the teams that might really work and they go and give the other team a beating, but then there's a response. And what we saw in January was Arsenal completely overran Chelsea's midfield. Chelsea played two central midfielders and Arsenal outnumbered them there time and time again, thoroughly deserved to win at Stamford Bridge.

6:13I felt Chelsea would not make that mistake again, and they did not. Rene referenced this afterwards. There was no space in the middle. Chelsea set up. Maybe, you know, back three, back four, didn't know whether they were going to do that. But I think it was clear, Jamie, that in central areas, they were not going to make that mistake again. And they kind of, I don't want to say clogged the game up, but they put more bodies in there this time around.

6:38Jamie: 100%. Like that game at Stamford Bridge in January is one that will haunt Chelsea, I think, for the rest of the season because it did potentially derail their title campaign. and that was just like the worst I've seen Chelsea play in years and the midfield performance that day was was deplorable and it came down to tactics but it all came it also came down to personnel like that was a game where Kira Walsh wasn't fit to start they were missing their kind of start starting midfield rotation so there was a lot of factors in that game and they weren't going to be the same this this week obviously they've got a lot of injuries Chelsea but that comes with having a lot of depth is I think I the way I was seeing Chelsea fans react and all due respect to them because I understand what it's like to be in the injury crisis but I thought they were going to be fielding like their academy team and I saw their lineup and I was like I don't really know where we're having a bit of a head loss over this because Aaron Cuthbert's obviously starting the midfield.

7:24Jamie: Kira Walsh is in the midfield. They have Sir Kinnuskin in the starting 11. So it's a really strong team and it's a much more controlling game. It's a much more controlling lineup sorry should I say against this Arsenal team. They needed to be strong in that midfield. They needed to have players that can keep possession. I think that they lost it a little bit later on in the game but I do think it was just end to end. I think both teams lost midfield control at the end of the game. So yeah, an area that Sonia needed to be focused on, Tim. And also in that LCL game, they lost it in the last 30 minutes, that draw on the weekend.

7:53Jamie: London City were completely overrunning their midfield and Chelsea had to rely on the hope of a counter-attack. So definitely an area of concern, but they definitely improved, especially in the first 20 minutes. Yeah, definitely. And one thing we really know about Chelsea for all their kind of troubles this season, the speed they have in transition is pretty severe, particularly with Alyssa Thompson, but Lauren James can break away. Sandy Baltimore early on was kind of in possession. She was really high up and then out of possession, she dropped back into a back five. But they've got so much speed and power in transition and skill as well.

8:29And the thing about Arsenal centre-back situation, I think Laia Kadina's a perfectly decent centre-half. She's not quick though in terms of recovery pace and I think that was a concern going into the game. And in the first few minutes, you know, you get bronze plays a ball in behind. Probably the only foot Katie McKay puts wrong all night, goes to slide to make the interception, misses it. You know, then it's Thompson versus Kadena. And here I think Kadena actually does a very good job in terms of kind of holding Alyssa Thompson up. She blocks the shot. It's kind of a freak deflection and it hits the post.

9:07But, I mean, that was really a sign of exactly how Chelsea can and will hurt you.

9:15Jamie: Yeah, that was their game plan. It was their game plan at the bridge, to be perfectly honest. And that was under a different Arsenal back four. But their game plan right now, and it has been for a few weeks, it was against, again, mentioning that London City game in the last half an hour. It was, we really need to rely on the counter-attack of our fast players. That ball either threw on the ground or over the top and behind either to Riddin, Canerad or Thompson. and that was the concern coming into this game. Like I think we were all concerned about that centre-back partnership and lots of Wobbenwe makes up ground.

9:42Jamie: Like that's not the concern. But when you put her with a player almost identical in kind of stature in Laia Kadena, they're playing a very similar position. It makes you a bit nervous because Laia Kadena doesn't have that ability that Wobbenwe has to cover the ground. So Tim, to be honest, I was very stressed after this shot hits the post and obviously there's another one. But like I was very stressed because that's the vulnerability in this game that Chelsea needed to exploit and you could tell that Bonpastor had her eyes on it from the very, very, very start. Yeah, and a couple of minutes later, we get something very, very similar.

10:11There's a 50-50 between Cuthbert and Mariana. They both go into it. And on one hand, Chelsea create these two really clear-cut chances where they hit the post and easily could have scored one or both. Obviously, there's a bit of butterfly effect going on. If the first one goes in, then the second one doesn't happen. But nevertheless, to not be one goal down was pretty fortunate. However, at the same time, like the first one, the shot is a freak deflection that really could, should really have just gone out for a corner or a throw in, but it hits the post. This one, Cuthbert and Mariana come together in midfield.

10:47No one's backing down there and it just goes to Lauren James. On this occasion, I felt it did expose Laia Kadina a little bit, both in terms of pace. And to be honest, when Lauren James is facing you up one-on-one, not many defenders come out of that looking great. And it was a real let-off that her shot hit the post. Because as we saw later, usually Lauren James is pretty unerring in front of goal.

11:12Jamie: It's the biggest let-off of this game for Arsenal, other than our decision will come up a bit later. This is a really big let-off because of the fact that it's completely caused by the system that Chelsea are trying to play. and they're trying to exploit Arsenal. And this was the moment I started to get nervous. And to be honest, I got nervous the entire time Lauren James has the ball. It's so funny how the Arsenal team just, they give so much respect to her when she's on the ball. And there were a lot of moments when she's kind of on the edge of the box with the ball at her feet that I really thought, if that was any other player, there's a foot being put in there.

11:44Jamie: But they don't put the foot in Lauren James. It's like they're very, very cautious of how quick she is with the ball at her feet and she's going to be able to draw a foul from you. So I think that's maybe something to watch in the second leg is you need to give her less time on the ball because there is far too much time awarded to Lauren James and she's allowed to do whatever she wants on it. She's a fantastic player, but Arsenal are treating her like such a fantastic player. But yeah, this moment, Tim, I felt very, very nervous. I do think, of course, we'll come onto it, but Arsenal do a good job at adjusting this.

12:11Jamie: But yeah, there's definitely vulnerabilities that you're kind of hoping and praying are solved for the second leg with maybe some different personnel or maybe it is tactics. Yeah, Renee said that afterwards. She said there's a lot of things in this game we'd like to manage better ahead of next week. And then again, Arsenal lose the ball in midfield. Beth Mead loses it. Alyssa Thompson breaks. There's a good block by Kadena and then by Lota Wubhamoy. It was clear those transitions were an issue early on. But you're right, Arsenal adapted. I haven't had a chance to watch the game back, so I don't know exactly what they did at that point.

12:46But it became less of a problem. and then Arsenal take the lead. I mean, they'd settled down for a few minutes before the goal, but I think you still have to say the first goal was against the runner play. Lauren James with a foul on Mariana, a bit soft. The referee, I think, all night was just, if you fall over, it's a free kick and I won't look at it any more than that. And I might even book you, it was all quite soft. It probably was just about a foul, but then Katie McCabe, free kick, Steena Black's Stenius header and you know we play Steena in these big games Jamie and I think a big part of the reason her goal scoring record's so good in them is because you know you get more space against the bigger teams but actually if you go back and look at her goals in these games they're not all like that they're not all running in behind there's lots of cutbacks there's a header a couple of years ago against Bayern she's just good at finding space in the area, but the way the players celebrated afterwards says to me they really worked on this free kick in training.

13:49They really identified something because they look pleased beyond the fact that they'd scored a goal as if this was a routine they'd really worked on.

13:58Jamie: Yeah, a couple of things about this goal. I think that the delivery is fantastic and I'll come on to Stina. I do think that Chelsea just fell asleep in defending this set piece and they didn't track her run and I thought it was quite bizarre and maybe it is because Stina Bakstinis isn't Arsenal's aerial threat despite her height. So they're focusing on Alessio Rousseau. They're focusing on Lotto Mouy. Like this other player's focus on in this set piece. But I thought the defending was quite horrible. And that maybe that happens a couple of times in this game for Chelsea and Arsenal. But this goal for Steiner, I think, shows, and we've spoken about it for weeks and weeks and weeks as she continues to score against big teams.

14:34Jamie: But it shows that she's just brought on a completely new element of her game this season. And she's just become a different player. and it's just, it's really, really good to watch. And there's a couple of times in this game where you think she's Alessia Russo because she holds the play up and she knocks it on. And it's never that kind of outside of the right foot touch. Like you know that that's Alessia Russo, but there's a few times in this game where Stina notes the space, especially next to Kadisha Buchanan, picks up the ball, really makes the run in the pocket and then recycles it or plays it back to Mariona.

15:03Jamie: And I just think this is a striker that although she's already got her, she's her superpower is the fact that she's very good in transition. She runs in and behind and she's a good kind of moments player, but she's bringing a whole new complexity to her game. And this is a striker's run that a striker's supposed to make off a set piece that I don't think we'd usually see Steena Blackstenius make. So this is a game against a top opposition where she's not just the game saver, Tim. She's like someone playing a role the entire time and she's helping the players around her. So yeah, really top performance and a really, really good headed finish.

15:34Yeah, I completely agree. I think her all round display. I think it's been obvious the last few months she's really worked on, you know, her play with her back to goal and things. All of that stuff that is really important for a striker in an elite team. You know, I remember last season, sometimes we had that discussion, like, is she a bit typecast? Are we just throwing her on when we think there's space in behind? Is there more to this player? I think we are seeing that there's more to this player as well. And just, you know, the improvement in her touch. there is hope yet maybe for her compatriot who plays up front for the men's team who often has a touch like a trampoline maybe there is there's some there's some hope there yet and and from there Arsenal just get almost like he says drinking his large Americano a little bit of a caffeine hit off of that the crowd feed off it Arsenal feel good for a few minutes Chelsea haven't had a good few months maybe they feel bad for a few minutes you know and they score again and the turn on the halfway line by Russo away from Kira Walsh is really really good she feeds Mead on the right Mead comes into Chloe Kelly and at this point Jamie the the rain had really started to fall quite heavily and it was very windy.

16:55And I remember thinking that these players are going to test these goalkeepers under these conditions and Chloe Kelly decides to do that with a low shot. And the way she hits it, I think, is so deliberate. And maybe Hannah Hampton won't want to look at it again, but at the same time, I think Chloe Kelly very knowingly plays into those conditions and she makes it bounce just before it gets to Hampton. I think it's a great shot and a great goal.

17:22Jamie: It's just audacious. She's a player that knows exactly who she is. She's brimming with confidence right now. And it's so nice to see because this is the player we had this time last year. And obviously coming back from the Euros, she just had so many injury concerns and was really struggling for fitness. But Chloe Kelly needs a few moments and she's back exactly where she belongs. And that's at the top of her game. But this encapsulates this. I think this goal in general is a really good goal from start to finish. Like you mentioned, Alessia Russo has Kira Walsh on ropes this game. Like she's causing nightmares for this midfielder.

17:52Jamie: And it's a really, really strong display from Russo where she is still the star at the end of the day. Like she wins the player of the match. She scores the amazing like half volley we'll come on to later. But like this is a game where she does so much more and she instigates this attack. Another great turn. I don't know why midfielders in opposition teams aren't just really getting stuck into her right. She always turns onto her right foot. Like I don't know why teams aren't reading that better. But again, Beth Mead cuts in. And again, Beth Mead, we spoke about on the weekend after the West Ham game, she kind of takes the central area, which is really nice to see.

18:23Jamie: And then like Tim, the finish from Chloe Kelly is so audacious. It's just something that only Chloe Kelly or Olivia Smith is doing. And this is about time that we have these kind of players. Like we said this after the West Ham game, but it is about time that Arsenal have these kind of players that are going to take that moment, take that opportunity in the pouring rain against their arch rivals for the last decade and put that in the back of the net. Again, Hannah Hampton's going to be banging her head against the wall because it's an unfortunate one that slips under her arms, but it's still a great curling effort and just a booming finish.

18:52Jamie: I actually ran around my kitchen as soon as it went in, truth be told. Yeah, and it was the other thing about the conditions. It was knee slide weather, and Chloe Kelly delivered in that respect as well. I'm with you. I think it's just she's given the attack a bit of personality, just like reaching into the spice rack and just, you know, A little bit of paprika or something. You need that sometimes. And, you know, so Arsenal go 2-0 up and they're playing quite well. But obviously, Chelsea are always going to come back. And just before half-time, I mean, I think we can admit that Arsenal really get away with one.

19:30Baltimore free kick. It's headed on. It's actually Lotta who gets her head on it. I'm still slightly nervous sometimes about Borba off her line. I still think if Daphna van Domsala is in top condition, that she should be the number one goalkeeper because Borba clearly doesn't call for this, for Lotta to get her head on it. Loop's up in the air, Berman with the header. I mean, there's maybe a hand on Laia Kadina's shoulder and I think Laia Kadina maybe does well to go down, especially because the ball's already gone in and you might as well. I think she did it maybe more in hope than expectation but the ref had given soft fouls the whole half every time someone went down she gave a foul she did that this time I was nervy during the VAR check because I really thought there was a chance of it being overturned and it probably should have been certainly if the goal had been given there would have been no VAR check for a foul I mean Arsenal really got away with one there didn't they yeah this is a howler

20:36Jamie: this is a really really big howler like I can't even justify the fact that this is a goal like this is a goal every day of the week the only thing I will say the only thing I will say is like at least Berman's kind of jumping up as Kadine is jumping up so there's a hand on the shoulder maybe it's more of a she stopped her like Eric she stops her from getting off the ground That's the only way I can see it being a foul. It's still in no way a foul. And Arsenal get away with jail, like it's a get out of jail free card, right, in this game because I think that there's a lot of what-ifs, ifs, buts, maybes.

21:08Jamie: If this goal goes in, does the momentum change? But, yeah, this is just, I guess, Laia Kadina maybe reading the referee, but at the same time it felt like she felt the contact, waited a second and then thought, I need to save myself here. Whereas at least like Gabrielle on the men's team, like makes a real show out of it. Like at least like play the foul. So, yeah, I feel bad for Chelsea fans because that's a sour one. However, I will say, like, I remember when Stina Blackstanias' handball came off her thigh and Chelsea fans were out here saying, well, it shouldn't have been a corner, so it's justification.

21:40Jamie: Like, at the end of the day, the free kick leading up to this goal shouldn't have been a free kick either. So it's just a bad refereeing display. But, yeah, if I was a Chelsea fan, I would be rightfully very, very scorned. It's a bad decision. Yeah, and I think we're in a tricky period at the moment because I think the refereeing in the Women's Champions League is pretty much universally very bad. But at the same time, there's no quick solution to that because it's a long journey to be an elite referee and it doesn't happen quickly. And the way it happens is by training referees up, giving them exposure to games like this.

22:17And we are just in that period now where they're getting the exposure and we're getting a little bit of pain from that. But we have to go through this basically and hopefully in five years or so when they're all a bit more trained up, a bit more experienced, maybe a bit more experienced with VAR will come out of this period. But it's one of those things. I think the refereeing in this tournament is dreadful, but I also don't think there's a quick solution to that. And we are just going to have to suck it up for a few years while everyone kind of develops and improves. that's the first half so why don't we take a quick break there and we'll come back in part two and discuss the second half right after this what's up it's sean linda from two black guys of good credit if managed supply runs is still on your to-do list here's your science upgrade walmart business has the tech tools and services that make it ridiculously easy to stock up for your office or team.

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25:06Okay, welcome back to the Arsenal Women Ask Cast on AskBlog.com with Tim Stillman and Jamie Spanger looking back at Tuesday night's Champions League quarter-final first leg 3-1 win over Chelsea at Emirates Stadium and one of the things that happens in the second half Jamie I mean I mean first off it felt clear that the next goal was going to be massive in this in this game but an interesting substitution at half-time Laia Kadina comes off there's no centre back on the bench katie reed is injured leah williamson's injured renee said afterwards they're hopeful that she'll be available for the second leg steph catley just off a plane um and so that's three center backs not available um renee said she took cadena off because of the yellow card and i'm sure that that was a massive factor particularly in the conditions and the fact the referee was a bit whistle and card happy um and and again maybe michael arteta should have done something similar on Sunday with one of his defenders.

26:06But at the same time, I think we have to acknowledge that it probably was a difficult first half for Laia Kadina as well. I think particularly just against Chelsea and their speed. I don't think Laia Kadina is a bad defender at all, but you can't make a human faster than they are really. You can only kind of get around the edges of that and you know to play Katie McCabe at centre-back um incidentally the final the final infinity stone for Katie McCabe um in terms of outfield positions playing for Arsenal I mean I don't think that's a decision you take lightly no that's a that's a big sucker punch I think and

26:48Jamie: look it's justified and I think it's actually like if you're looking at the way that Rene Slakers is managing this team it's something that I think because if you follow the men's in the women's team right now, you almost want to applaud the kind of ruthlessness in the fact that if a player isn't going to be the best player in that position at that time, don't play them. Like sometimes there's bigger fish to fry and I think that this is a ruthlessness that Arsenal have missed. Like there's been too much charity work in the women's team over the last decade where it's like you're playing players for the sake of playing them and because they're loyal or because of this.

27:17Jamie: And René Ségers is bringing a like, look, if you're not performing on the day, like we'll work on it in training but we can't have you on the pitch right now because this result really matters. And I think like Laia Kadena is going to value that feedback as well. And it just wasn't a good first half and that's a matchup, right? It's not like it's a tactical issue. It's not like it was a mistake by the manager. It was her only option to play Laia Kadena. Like it was the only option. And Kadena is just, like you said, it's not a skill thing. It's just her mechanics. She's not as fast as the fastest player in the Champions League.

27:46Jamie: Like it's unfortunate. But I think what lots of Wobbenway does that Kadena doesn't is she is faster. She's naturally a fast player, but she's also her positioning, the way that she puts her body on a strike or a runner is so advanced in this team and I think so underrated. And the way that she reads the movement of the ball and she automatically cuts a player out of the game because she knows where she needs to position her body, that's something I think Kadena needs to bring into her game because of her lack of pace. So, yeah, I think it's a difficult decision. The Katie McCabe one is actually really funny.

28:16Jamie: My partner can vouch for this. I did say when Kadena got the left card, the yellow card, we're going to bring McCabe into the centre back. So I feel like I foreseen, had foresaw this. Oh my gosh, what am I saying? I definitely did see this happening just because of the personnel, Tim. And we'll come on to Katie McCabe later because an immense shift. But yeah, a really, really disappointing first half for like Dina. But I'm sure she'll use it to build and learn. Yeah, yeah. I think we have to acknowledge like we're not just talking about normal speed here when we're talking about Alyssa Thompson.

28:50I mean, she was, Alyssa Thompson's backstory is amazing, actually. She was in athletics as well as football. And if you want to feel old, basically when COVID broke out, it was just easier for her to play soccer than it was to do athletics. Like all the athletics clubs had closed. I think she went and played with a boys team. And that kind of, and I think it was much the same for her sister as well. And that kind of made her decision to go into football instead of athletics. Like this is a player who very genuinely could have been an Olympic sprinter. Like that's a level of explosiveness and pace that you're right, maybe more than any other player in the world.

29:32Incidentally, Emily Fox, she dealt with that. She can keep pace with Alyssa Thompson. I think that tells you something as well. It probably tells you something about the grounding of American players as well and their kind of athletic profiles. But yeah, we will come on to Katie in a bit just because of her part in the third goal in particular. But, you know, it's a little bit cat and mouse. Maybe Arsenal sitting back a little bit more and looking to hit Chelsea on the break, not wanting to expose themselves to transitions. And Arsenal really get the next kind of chance in this game. Chloe Kelly to Russo, who spins Kira Walsh, shot that Hannah Hampton saves.

30:14and maybe we'll do a double whammy on the third goal of Russo's performance as well. But it's all a bit cat and mouse. It's all a bit nip and tuck. You know, the next goal is going to be a big one. Chelsea having a lot of possession, but maybe not creating very much. But Lauren James doesn't need very much. And, you know, Arsenal clear a corner. They clear it well. They don't do anything wrong, really. and Lauren James from 30-plus yards on her left foot, the mechanics of her shooting make no sense to me. I don't understand how she can generate so much power and so much direction on her weak foot.

30:57And it just looks like it's a bit like, forgive me if this is a tortured analogy, it's like watching someone with a putter in golf somehow whack the ball 250 yards like there's no back lift it's completely nonchalant right into the top corner and sometimes Jamie you've just got to say fair enough yeah this is one that you just have to clap like this is this is incredible she's an incredible

31:27Jamie: player she's one of those players that I always say like she doesn't even like it's just not running she like floats like she doesn't even run like it just feels like she's just gliding across the pitch and it's unlike I don't think there's another player in the women's game similar to Lauren James that looks like this and and can perform at this kind of level and can just pull that kind of moment out she's just skillfully I think leagues above everyone in the women's game let alone the WSL let alone the Champions League and a player that just makes me so nervous she can be having the worst game of her life and she wasn't she it was a really good performance from Lauren James but she can be having the worst game of her life and still kind of pull out that moment I think it makes her so special and something that as just if you're watching the game you just have to love like watching a player like Lauren James this goal is incredible like I have no idea how she does it how do you get the ball with that much loft but also like the curl and the technique and it feels like she's just tapped it like it's so confusing and I feel like all of the the rules of science are just confused at Lauren James but to be honest like Arsenal in this moment I just feel like it's one of those situations like you said Tim it's just a moment of magic separates it and sometimes that just happens in football and I think something that Arsenal do really well after halftime is they notice like Chelsea really struggling in this game because they don't have a number nine and Aggie Beaver Jones's ankle I think was ankle injury or calf injury against London City is a massive loss because she was really good in that first half against LCL because she controls the ball she is that hold up nine and obviously Sam Kerr is not available Ramirez isn't available they don't have a natural striker unless you want to put Sioka Nuskin up there which I don't think Sonia likes as much as Emma Hayes did.

33:00Jamie: So Chelsea really struggled because they can't progress the ball up. And as soon as Arsenal say, okay, let's sit back a little bit, because they do sit back. And like Rene likes to say, like we need to suffer. And I think they suffer out of possession in the second half, Arsenal. Chelsea then can't hit on the counter-attack as much as they did in the first half. So they automatically have to play to that nine and there's no striker. So I do think Arsenal do the right thing in this second half, but then a moment of magic separates it. And it's just a brilliant goal that you just clap. You clap all of the goals in this game because, yeah, a really, really good showing of world-class football.

33:30Yeah, and it's weird as well because that is the same goal in the same corner that Frieda Mornem hits against Bayern Munich, very famous goal. But, like, Frieda whacks that, like, absolutely laces it. And yet, yeah, Lauren James on her weak foot, and for any, you know, young player watching that, that's why you develop your weak foot. And that's why Lauren James, one of the many reasons Lauren James can go around two or three players. You can't read her because she'll go both sides very, very happily. And it really gives you a dimension, I think, particularly as an attacker. But at that point, game's on a bit of a knife edge.

34:07You know, it could go either way. I mean, I don't think Chelsea would have been too unhappy to lose this 2-1 and take it to Stamford Bridge. But it feels, you know, again, next goal in the tie, whether it came at the Emirates or next week, going to be really, really pivotal. Arsenal get it. And I think there's three elements of this goal to break down, and we'll do them one by one. Katie McCabe with the interception, and then kind of almost like breakdancing style, playing the ball on the floor to Steiner in a way that just typified her performance. I asked Renee about KT afterwards and Renee said we asked her to play centre-back at half-time and both Aaron and me that's Aaron Dantino, the assistant go to her and ask if she has any questions about the role or the game plan and that position she said no questions so she steps out, she does the role she's fantastic she's such an intelligent player she's been playing at the club for so long knows Arsenal, knows the players around her and she just picks up the role she should be really proud of her performance.

35:17I mean, we know about Katie. We know the technical quality of the footballer. We know she's got that dog in her quite a lot and she shows that in this goal. But like the intelligence of the player to play so many different positions and just play a Champions League quarterfinal at centre-back and just say, no questions and go and do it. I mean, this is Katie McCabe's Hall of Fame. Needs a lot of space, but this belongs right on her kind of Arsenal Mount Rushmore, I think.

35:54Jamie: This is one of the most inspirational Katie McCabe performances ever. And it's not even a joke. Like coming in against Chelsea as well. It's not like you're just coming in at centre-back against anyone because we're depleted at the back. But it's a tactical change from the manager. It's not an injury that forces this. It's you're being trusted into play in this position. over a proven centre-back against a really high opposition. And she doesn't even look out of place for a second. And I think that's something that obviously we don't know the finite decision on Katie McCabe's future at Arsenal and we don't really have confirmation of anything.

36:25Jamie: But this is something that I think Arsenal really need to look at, the loss of not just the player and how good she is at left-back and how you can compare her to the wider pool of left-backs in women's football, but the versatility and her intelligence is so underrated. And I think because of her tenacity and how, you know, not aggression, but how she can be very tenacious on the pitch and really, really kind of rile up oppositions and referees, her intelligence gets undervalued. And we don't speak about it enough. We don't speak about how much of a clever footballer she is in these moments and how tactically, like, switched on she is and how good she is at kind of in-game management.

37:00Jamie: And I think this is just one of those things where you're given the role of playing against a really fast forward line at left back. Suddenly you have to play centre back. You have to do a completely different role against this team who are counterattacking, who are dropping into Lauren James. You also have to cover the 10. She's the makeshift nine in that game. So I just think this is a performance from Katie McCabe that kind of makes you think, is this player ever replaceable in the broader sense of women's football in general? Is there going to be a player like Katie McCabe? Is Arsenal ever going to have a Katie McCabe?

37:28Jamie: Because they might have a better left back, but I don't think that her character and what makes her such a whole player is ever replaceable. So just a performance that she should remember forever. And yeah, really, really inspirational. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, so she plays that pass to, and actually I should say, I think we're finding something out about Renee as well in how much she values versatility. We've seen players playing in a lot of different positions recently. She highly values that. And I wonder when it comes to the squad build,

38:02versatility is going to be a real feature of the player she signs. I think we saw her sign Taylor Hines because she can play on both sides and in midfield. Ona Bache as well can play on both sides in terms of fullback and that's certainly a player Arsenal trying to sign for the summer. I think she really values that and I wonder if maybe she's the type of manager who likes a 22-23 player squad but full of very versatile players she plays that to Steena I mean we've talked a bit about Steena I think maybe a year ago she tries to pass to Beth Mead and maybe doesn't even make it but instead she sees the run from Russo and Russo I didn't appreciate this as much as I should have at the time I think just because I was in the other half the pitch really in the press box and the first touch to set up this finish that makes Alessio Russo breaks a record for most goals scored in a single Champions League season by an English striker.

39:02Russo was in the press conference the day before the game and I kind of said to her, like, just watching you, I just get this sense of like, maybe she used to be a bit streaky. You'd have five or six games where it'd be like, oh, Russo's in a bit of a slump, isn't she? Haven't had that at all this season. You just get this sense of a player who performs at such a high level every time. And I think her goal scoring record in the Champions League, we often talk about not having that Bunny Shaw level, you know, striker or whatnot. And look, Bunny Shaw, that's perhaps an unfair standard because she's very out on her own.

39:37But I think Russo compares very, very favorably to any striker in the world at the moment.

39:44Jamie: This is an incredible finish. Like, obviously, we're going to talk about the long range strikes from James and Kelly until the Kiles come home. but this is like just technically so brilliant and again we go on about Russo being like that kind of instinctive number nine and I remember a couple of seasons ago it was just before it was like my I think it might have been my first episode on this podcast and we spoke about how she was in good form really looking forward to the new season can she become more of an instinctive nine and then we're a little bit disappointed because that didn't happen and and she kind of lost her spark in the first the the end of the Onus Idavel era and then obviously Renee kind of changed that and And yeah, you're right.

40:20Jamie: She ebbs and flows a bit. But this is a season where she is so instinctive. She's a monster and it doesn't really matter where she's playing. And I think maybe that's a big part of her development of her game under Renee. Like you just spoke about the versatility, but Renee is no longer saying, oh, like you're a striker that also we need to play 10. It's just like, this is the player that you are. We're sometimes going to need you in an attacking midfield spot, but you're doing the same thing. We need your hold up play. We need your physicality on the ball. We also need your finishing and we need you to be able to use both feet.

40:46Jamie: So rather than kind of like put her in these little boxes, she's now becoming just a player that just has to shift little parts and tweak little parts of her game depending on where in the pitch she's starting. So Alessia Russo is one of those players that I just think is still underrated. Like she's still undervalued because of the hype she gets from Arsenal fans and England fans. I think the wider football community really does underrate her. And this is a goal that I think if we saw it in the Premier League, we'd be like, that's incredible. I wish Victor Jokeresh could do that. Like we're not going to see that for the men's team.

41:14Jamie: It's great to see it for the women's team. But yeah, Tim, this is a finish that I think I love these kind of goals as someone watching strikers. And yeah, Russo's performance in general, like I said earlier, she overran Kira Walsh, she overran the midfield, and then she knew exactly what she needed to do when she pushed higher as well. Yeah, big time. I say coming of age performance. Actually, I don't think it was. I think it's just like a normal performance she puts in every week, and it's at such a high level at the moment. And then at the end, you know, it's kind of 3-1, and that suits Arsenal at the end.

41:44And again, I thought initially that Chelsea had got a goal back on a corner. And actually, if you look at Arsenal haven't conceded a lot of goals the last few months. You look at the ones they've conceded outside the area against Everton, outside the area from Lauren James. Corinthians, it's a penalty in a set piece. Whereas, you know, so it looks like they're about to concede from another set piece. Buchanan bundles the ball in a little bit karate style in the end, and poor Annika Borba has really been in the wars in recent weeks. There was some chat in the press box about whether Buchanan should have been booked or sent off for this.

42:29I think it's definitely a foul. But what did you make of that incident?

42:35Jamie: Yeah, I don't think she should have been sent off purely because there was contact with the ball in this exchange. She did studs up Annika Bulba in the rib cage. Like, that's a foul. But it's not like there's no malicious intent. She's trying to play the ball. She does play the ball while she's kicking Bulba. So I don't think it's a send-off, but it's certainly a foul and it's a bad one. Yeah, definitely. And I think there has to be a higher tolerance when the ball's on the goal line. Everyone's a little more desperate there. So, you know, really, I don't think that was a let-off. I think, you know, the first one is definitely a big let-off and might have changed the rhythm of the tie, particularly at half-time.

43:13But, I mean, second leg, two-goal lead to take Stamford Bridge, that's good. But I think Arsenal play well in this game. I think it's not a tactical game. This is, you know, this is more of like a mentality, like a derby kind of game. But obviously the score being what it is, maybe makes next week a more tactical game. I think if Arsenal are to go through, it's going to have to be a more tactical game. They're going to have to have a little bit more control. But at the end of the day, Jamie, I do think there are forks in the road in this game where the game could have taken any number of different directions at different points.

43:54So I don't think all conquering Arsenal, smash Chelsea and sweep them aside, I don't think that's the story of this game. and I think next week, as much as people probably feel good this morning, when we kick off at Stamford Bridge in seven days' time, that first 10 minutes, I think we're all going to feel a little bit tense because this tie is very far from over.

44:15Jamie: Certainly. I think Chelsea fans, you're going to be disgruntled by this result, but I don't think you can be too upset by the performance. I think they had a lot of good chances to go ahead early. The only thing I will say is I think that the goal conceded by Arsenal, obviously like Arsenal's goal that they conceded is a freak moment of magic from Lauren James. And then we speak about the set piece as well. And yes, there is those earlier chances, but I think you expect next week going to Stamford Bridge, Steph Catley's back. I think it's just a different centre-back partnership. So it feels easily tweakable.

44:44Jamie: Whereas the goals that Chelsea concede, like can I be honest, the Russo one is amazing goal, but the defending is really, really poor. And Kira Walsh in this moment forgets that there's a counter-attack and only starts running so the ball's gone. And it just feels like the goals that Chelsea concede in this fixture are a lot more kind of highlighting the underlying issues they've faced over the last couple of months. So I do think if you're looking at this game, I think that Chelsea had the moments. And I think that if they won, I wouldn't be saying they're undeserving because I think they had the better chances.

45:12Jamie: But I think that they've got more systemic problems in this team right now. And I don't think Arsenal have those. And we've seen how well they've defended recently. So I think going into Stamford Bridge, it's going to be an amazing game. and Chelsea, the mentality monsters, they have been for the last six years. But this tie is far from over. But I do think that Arsenal have Leicester correct. And that win in January is so imperative to this game because you would hate to go to Stamford Bridge and not have won there, if in however long. So, yeah, I think it's going to be an interesting game. I just really, really trust Renee Slagers and her tactical mind right now.

45:44Jamie: I think, yeah, she's in a league of her own. So I'm excited. I'm very nervous because, again, it's Chelsea. but I think there's little to correct and a lot more to be excited about next week. Yeah, definitely. And like you say, the squad will look a bit better. They'll be a little bit more on the bench. I think Chelsea have got two big problems in the medium term and it's replacing peak Sam Kerr and it's replacing peak Millie Bright. I don't think for, you know, two years ago, I think Millie Bright heads that McKay free kick away she's playing. And I think that'd be a bit, quite a bit more solid.

46:15And obviously, you know, Sam Kerr, we don't need to talk too much about that, but she'll be back next week. And I think both teams will have more on the bench, at least, to kind of to try and change this game a little bit. But I think the first goal and Chelsea always fly out the blocks first 15 minutes of each half. They always go for it and they're going to do that even more so. And we have struggled with that against Chelsea, frankly. Like generally, they make some big chances in the first 10 minutes against Arsenal. So I'm going to have to mind that. But for now, I think to be enjoyed, it's a good lead to take into the second leg.

46:52And I think we'd have all shaken hands on it before. Jamie, thanks so much for that.

46:58Jamie: Thanks as ever, Tim. An exciting week ahead. Two derbies that could make my mood for the next month. We'll see how it goes and speak soon. Yeah, absolutely. We'll do another podcast after the Tottenham game, obviously on Saturday, whether we record that on Sunday or Monday we'll see but that will be there for you in terms of the second leg I think we'll try and do something that the timing might be because I'm going on counterpressed basically next week after the second leg and that's going to be Thursday morning so we'll work something out about that but we'll definitely have a post Tottenham podcast for you so thanks very much for joining us for this as ever for those of you who were caught on the hop by the release time we did a post west ham podcast as well and we recorded it saturday evening so it was out sunday morning and appreciate sunday not a great day to release a podcast but with such a short turnaround before this game we kind of squeezed it in so that's there for you to listen to if you didn't get the opportunity in the west ham game if not we'll have a post tottenham podcast for you and we'll speak to you then until then take care of yourselves and we'll speak to you very soon

48:35We'll be right back. or set piece for fine margins, fun debates and full-blooded tackles football weekly. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and watch the full episodes on YouTube.