Arsenal Women Arsecast Episode 161: Still the only in the land

0:00Hi friends, Grace from the Working Hard podcast here. When you're stretching every dollar, Alilla goes a long way and Walmart Business is here to help. They make it easy to order what you need from tech and cleaning supplies to everyday essentials, all at low prices and with helpful tools like spend tracking and tax exempt purchasing for eligible organizations. Because when your operations are smooth, your impact can be bigger. Visit business.warmart.com to get started.

0:35Hello and welcome to the Arsenal Women Ask Cast on askblog.com with me your host Tim Stillman looking back at Wednesday night's 1-0 defeat at Stamford Bridge but 3-2 aggregate win for Arsenal in their UEFA Champions League quarterfinal against Chelsea. Another year at least of the only in the land secured for Arsenal. They are going to the Champions League semi-final where they will play Lyon. Again, we are recording this right after Lyon against Wolfsburg, which to be honest, given that it's now 11pm, could have done without that one going to extra time, quite frankly. But here we are. Apologies, we're getting this out a little bit late.

1:14I was booked to be on Counterpress podcast, which I'm sure a lot of you listen to. And if you don't, you should. Great women's football podcast on Thursday morning. so we didn't get the chance to do it then basically. But we will perhaps have a slightly more partisan look than the one I offered on Counterpressed at this game. And here to do that with me as ever is our co-host Jamie Spanger. Jamie, how are you doing this morning in Melbourne? Is it still morning?

1:46Jamie: Yeah, yeah, morning, 9am, bright and early. Sat for what, two and a half hours of Wolfsburg-Leon? A very good game. Well, it was a good day. It was on a knife's edge until extra time. And I think we all had a little bit of hope. And that's not to diminish Wolfsburg's achievements and their strengths because we know what they've done to us before. But I think maybe all Arsenal fans were not eager to see that Leon rampage in the extra time. But, Tim, I'm good. Champions League semifinals, we're here again. We're defending our crown. I'm very, very excited. And I think if we're going to be a little bit more biased on this podcast, It's very nice to have done it against our London rivals and do it against Chelsea, who have obviously been going for the Champions League for many, many years now and will have to do another year without it.

2:29Jamie: So it's a sweet feeling, an emotionally charged game. But yeah, we're in the Champions League semifinals. Yeah, and big shout out to the 3 ,000 Arsenal fans who packed into that corner of Stamford Bridge. Lots of, you know, Champions of Europe. You'll never sing that. Champions of Europe. You know, we know what we are. We'll be running around Fulham with our European Cups. All of that being sung lustfully by another packed out away end and it looked like they had a good time. Well, as good a time as anyone could have watching this game because it was pretty stressful, Jamie. And before we go into what happened in this game and a lot happened in this game, I just want to gauge what your feeling was perhaps in the build up to the game.

3:10What were you feeling? I mean, I say in the hours before, maybe you were asleep in the hours before. the game but what was your how were you feeling in the build-up to this game yeah can I be honest

3:22Jamie: Tim my feelings came in stages throughout the week since the final whistle last week to the start of this game for the first six days I was feeling very confident like I was feeling obviously there's nerves it's a really big game but there is the two goal cushion and I just think Arsenal are the team in this tie coming in with the form and they're coming in with the momentum and I I think we've seen such a maturity rise in the last like 10 games of a team that can really, really manage the pressure and knows how to manage the game state. And that's something that we couldn't do at the start of the season.

3:52Jamie: So I was feeling confident. I thought this is a big tie, but we can go in here and we can get this done. And it's not going to be easy. Like Renee says, we're going to have to suffer and suffer they did. But the day before the game and like during the game and 10 minutes before the game, I felt awful, like horrible. and there's just like nothing bigger on like at stake when you're playing Chelsea in a Champions League quarterfinal like this is the biggest game when it comes to like passion I think in women's football and stakes other than if it was in the final so yeah I felt a little bit dreadful beforehand but I still think I felt they can manage this game and they can manage the momentum so yeah a little bit of a mixed bag Tim.

4:30Yeah I was super bullish and confident but the whole way even on the day of the game and, you know, arrived at Stamford Bridge like two and a half hours or so before kickoff. Obviously, everyone asked me, how do you feel? I was like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I really feel like very confident. Like I'm not, I don't think it'll be easy or anything like that, but I think we're going to get this done. Like I said, I didn't think we'd blow Chelsea away by any means. And we spoke last week after the first leg and we were both saying this is not over and the next goal is going to be really, really big in the tie and Chelsea always fly out of the blocks anyway but they're definitely going to do that but I was I was calm I thought we'll deal with it and Chelsea gonna have to push on and that's gonna leave space and you know I think I think my prediction was a draw on the night but maybe like a 1-1 or a 2-2 or something like that but but Arsenal getting through and then I think I read a tweet from someone which is always a mistake anyway about five minutes before kickoff and forgive me I can't remember who it was but someone just tweeted like the thing is about this like we can only really lose you know like if we if we don't go through from this position it's going to be even worse than like if we'd drawn the first leg 1-1 or something and then you go out by the odd goal like but it's like it already feels like not that we've won the tie but we can only like really throw it away from here and and that and I hadn't for some reason And I hadn't thought about that very much.

6:03And it gave me the fear. And the second the game kicked off, I was shaking. I was literally shaking, to be honest. And, you know, but before we get into what happened in the game, which didn't calm my nerves, really, it was a very stressful 90-odd minutes, starting lineups come out. Now, I think there's really only two points to discuss here. Caitlin Ford starts. I think it's fair to say that's your out of possession choice. That is your, we're two goals up and I want the winger that is going to run the most and protect the fullback the most. That's not all Caitlin does, but I think she does that probably better than anyone.

6:48But we discussed the goalkeeper position. I asked Renee about that pre-match. I think that's where most of the eyes were ahead of this, as well as Leah Williamson. and she wasn't quite in the squad for this. I said on the last pod, I expected to see Annika Borber in goal, but that I kind of hoped it would be Daphna. Not that I wouldn't have really debated it that much had it been Annika, but it was Daphna van Domselaar in goal. Obviously, we've got lots of reason to talk about her, but how surprised were you at that and how did you feel when that team sheet dropped?

7:26Jamie: I don't think I was surprised And I think that's because she played in the North London derby. Like I wasn't surprised just because like you're not going to make that change against Tottenham if Bourbon's going to start this game. I think the only point of contention that we could speak about is the mistake that she made for the Beth England goal. But again, like you're not going to punish a goalkeeper with such high quality like Daphna on that one mistake. And honestly, it's very good that she got it out of her system as the game kind of transpires. But I do, yeah, I do think we were very aware of that decision when she started the North London derby.

7:58Jamie: And I don't think Renee is a type of manager to punish those kind of mistakes. And she's very, very keen to just get Daphna on the park again in this game. So I wasn't surprised. And I also think it's something that we've spoken about, like our hesitancies and all these hypothetical anxieties about Annika Borba. And I think one of them is the coming off her line. And to be honest, I think in this game, Renee knows that Sam Kerr starts this game and you need a goalkeeper that's going to sweep. And that happens pretty early on. And it's lucky that Sam Kerr's offside, but Van Domslaar does a really good job at sweeping there.

8:28Jamie: And I think there's a lot of factors in this Chelsea side that made Van Domslaar more primed to start this game. So I wasn't surprised at all. And I think, again, it's a good headache for Arsenal fans to be kind of like, oh, who's going to start in goal? I think it's a very good thing that we have this opportunity because it's never really been the case. Yeah, definitely. I think in hindsight, again, because, listen, it's on record, I said that I thought Anika Borpo would start. But you're right, I think in hindsight, why else would Daphna have started? It's just like you said, maybe the fact that she doesn't deal well with that Beth England goal kind of, you know, makes the decision.

9:07But it didn't. It reminds me a little bit, actually, if you remember between the two Real Madrid legs last season against Liverpool, Rene went with the Mariana Kim Little double pivot for the first time. Well, for the first time when she hadn't been forced to because of injuries. And it was a bit like, huh, was that like, what was that? And it's basically happened in every single game ever since. And it's like, or a bit like, you know, we've had this a few times, haven't we? Katie Reid starting against LCL and you're like, oh, is it because she knows Izzy Goodwin? Oh no, we're playing West Ham and she's starting again.

9:42And we're playing Man United and she's starting again. Or when Steph Catley went to centre-back, it's like, is this a, nope, nope, this is happening all the time now. So I think it's probably something we're learning about Rene is that she doesn't experiment really. If she's going to do something like that, it's because she's going to do it. We knew because it always happens anyway, even when the game starts nil-nil, that Chelsea were going to fly out the blocks. I think it's so weird. I had a conversation with someone at halftime who was like, it's so weird, isn't it? If we were 3-1 up, you'd feel really, really happy.

10:16But when you come into the game at 3-1, it's so strange. And I think it just becomes unavoidable that you get one team's chasing and one team's holding, and both teams go into that. I want to start with actually the first minute, Jamie, where Daphne van Domslaar goes to take a goal kick. And immediately the referee runs over and tells her not to time waste. my read on this was that she wasn't that it really was like all goal kicks are like that now it's like do we go short do we go long their press is a bit but what's interesting is we didn't go short on a goal kick all night actually in the end they all went long um it did set the tone for some of the refereeing and i don't necessarily say that pejoratively i think one of the variables we had to manage in this game, Jamie, was the referee wasn't giving anything.

11:14And actually, I'm okay with that as long as it's consistent. And I think it kind of was. She just wasn't giving anything and letting the game flow and she was straight on people. But that didn't help Arsenal. It's not the referee's job to help Arsenal, but it didn't help Arsenal because we probably needed quite a broken game. We probably needed the goal kicks to take 45 seconds, probably needed the throw-ins to take 45 seconds. We probably needed a fussy referee to keep blowing the whistle. We got the total opposite. And I think that was quite a big variable Arsenal had to manage on the night.

11:50Jamie: I think that's a fantastic point because exactly when you've got the lead and you're holding the lead, you want a lot of stoppages. And there was hardly any stoppages in this game. And to be completely fair to the referee, I think, look, I think it's a bit much to be going up to the goalkeeper that's in the lead that early in the fixture and kind of setting the tone. But at the same time, like if you're not going to set the tone, it does get to a point where it's hard to manage as the game goes on. And I can understand why that's the case with the goalkeepers, because sometimes it does. It really does take take a bit of the mick, like when it comes to goalkeeper goal kick.

12:23Jamie: So, yeah, I kind of agree with what the referee did. Obviously, it's annoying when it's Arsenal. But I think that in this fixture, it's highly influenced by how open it is. And it also feels like the ability for both teams. And I just think there's been, we're going to come onto this. There's been a lot of talk about how Chelsea dominated this tie and how, I just don't think that's necessarily true. Because I think both teams were given many opportunities to recycle the ball. And that came from the fact the referee wasn't blowing the whistle. So if Arsenal lost possession, they'd get the ball back, even if there was a kind of a little bit of a foul.

12:53Jamie: They'd get the ball back, they'd recycle possession. Chelsea did the same. So it felt like neither team were given breathing room. And it made for a very exciting games in neutral, I'm sure. Awful game for me. But I think in these kind of games, there's not a lot in the first half, especially that I see the referee and think, why are you not calling that? And sometimes I think it actually worked in the game's favour, but it didn't work in Arsenal's favour. I completely agree. Like they wanted to be able to set up. They needed to be able to reorganise their press. When Chelsea are kind of knocking on the door, knocking on the door, they need to just be able to like stand and reorganise and then not give them that opportunity.

13:24Jamie: So, yeah, a good spectacle for football. But certainly I think Arsenal struggled with it. But the ability to adapt to that is night and day again. Like it's night and day again. The way that they are able to, like, again, I keep going on about in-game management, but this happens when there's no stoppage as well. I think Arsenal's ability to reorganise is so much better than it used to be and the problem solving on the pitch is so much better. So, yeah, not ideal, but they did exactly what they could. They did all they could probably with that scenario. Yeah, definitely. It's such a weird tie to pass because so many different things could have happened.

13:58And obviously, you know, Chelsea have loads of chances in this game. But at the same time, when it's 3-1, maybe if they take one of them, then the dynamic of the game shifts if it goes to 1-0 quite early and all of that. And there's just all of these different kind of branches and all these different sliding doors moments for both teams. However, Chelsea create two really good chances in the first 15 minutes. First, Ellie Carpenter pulled back and Nushkin steers one wide when she could have scored. And then, you know, Lucy Bronze snaps a ball into Alyssa Thompson, who kind of snatches at it and drags it just wide.

14:34I mean, I was a bit, I got nervous at kickoff. And that first kind of 15, 20 minutes, I got very nervous. And again, I think it's fair to say that maybe Arsenal kind of got away with it a bit in that first 15, 20 minutes.

14:53Jamie: certainly those goals like those are goals that you expect Chelsea to score not miss and like there's too much space in this moment and I honestly I think I aged 30 years but something I think Chelsea actually did really well in this tie is playing Sioka Nuskin in this starting 11 really really meant that it was more like a like for like and it was more of a physical tactical kind of game rather than let's hit it over the top to Riddinkaner and Thompson and Kerr and see what we can do with the Arsenal backline because Arsenal are never going to award that space in this tide like they're never going to have that run in behind like we know that the center backs are going to be very tight they're not going to be very high up the pitch like they are going to sit in a way that Chelsea can't play that kind of run and carry game that they want to do and I think Nuskin's the key figure in this kind of game and I'm not even saying she's the best player on the pitch because I think she made so many mistakes but she allows Chelsea to hold up possession a lot more and she also allows them for a target in the box and that's something they really have been missing that you often get whoever it is if it's Carpenter if it's Bronze if it's Thompson, whoever's crossing the ball, and you kind of look in and Kerr's got three players on her, but there's no one else.

15:54Jamie: There's no target in there. And I think Nuskin does a really good job at disrupting Arsenal in this fixture because there's more to account for in that area. So yeah, I'm not saying it was a standout performance because I don't really know if anyone ran the show in this tie at all, but I do think she disrupted Arsenal. But again, they did a really good job at adapting to that. And I think Kim Little is the star of this show, if I'm going to name anyone, and we'll come onto that later. But their ability to kind a markup is fixed after these two shots but I was very nervous because it felt like Chelsea were given far too much time on the ball inside the area and Carpenter or Bronze are some of the two best delivers in the in the league so I was very worried yeah yeah and um I think you're right about Nushkin she reminds me a bit of like Thomas Muller maybe um just like very good at finding space in the box like you said big aerial threat and Chelsea really pushing those full backs on and looking to get those crosses in.

16:47And again, we discussed this after the first leg. Something interesting happens. Steph Catley feels something in her calf. Rene said afterwards, it doesn't feel too bad, but it depends really what happens. I don't think we'll see her against Brighton. And then maybe quite quickly after that. But so with no Leo Williamson in the squad, Katie Reid injured as well. Steph Catley goes off injured. And again, it's Taylor Hines with Katie McCabe moved to centre-back and Laia Kadina not coming on. I mean, we saw that. I mean, Laia Kadina started the first leg, but we kind of, we saw that in the first leg.

17:28So it probably wasn't that surprising, but again, probably not nice for Laia Kadina either.

17:36Jamie: Yeah, this is a tough one. This is definitely a hard pillar swallow. Like if you're Laia Kadina, you're probably looking at this like the writing's on the wall. And I think you look at the centre-backs that Arsenal have right now, and obviously Leah Williamson's injured, Katie Reid's injured, but like Renee is trusting Katie Reid, like she was a starting centre-back. All things considered, there were injuries, but she was a starting centre-back to start the WSL campaign, which is arguably the most important time of the season to get points on the board. and then you're kind of like, Adina, you're a lot more of a mature player.

18:02Jamie: You're obviously in the World Cup squad. You've played for Barcelona. Like you've got a bigger resume than Katie Reid and players like that and you're not prioritising this game. And I actually can't identify anything in this fixture that really makes her not an option. And I think obviously it's the pace of the forward line, but Chelsea aren't playing that in and behind. They are a little bit at the start to Sam Kerr, but then lots of Oban Moy is just not giving her an absolute yard in this fixture. So I just feel bad for Laia Kadena. Like that's a hard situation. You're playing your left back as your centre-back before your fifth choice centre-back.

18:36Jamie: So, yeah, not a great pill to swallow. And I think maybe an indication that the riding is a bit on the wall for her place in the squad. But, again, I would probably trust Katie McCabe over most people to fill in a spot. And obviously we'll come on to her a bit later. But she does a great job alongside Wobbenmoy in that second 45, in particular, to like lock down Sam Kerr. So, yeah, riding on the wall, hard pill to swallow for Kadena. but I think the right decision. Yeah, I still kind of think against maybe nearly anyone else. She probably would have gone in, but it's a little bit pick your poison because Kadena's really good in the air and Chelsea are putting crosses in.

19:13And so do you want to stop that problem or do you want a bit more recovery pace kind of thing? I think Laia Kadena will start against Brighton on Sunday. However, that doesn't dismiss the fact that I do think the writing is on the wall. But Arsenal get to half-time, nil-nil. I don't know about you, but at half-time, like usually in these scenarios where you have a lead, you check off little points in your head. Like I was checking off like first 15 minutes, survive that. Get to half-time, survive that. I don't know if it was just because I was so stressed and a bit scatty. I didn't feel that at half-time for some reason.

19:54I didn't feel like we'd got to this, like, kind of, I'd describe it as like a lily pad. Like we were like, okay, right. We're halfway there. We've got to halftime. We get to regroup. I don't know what it was, but I didn't, I didn't feel that security or comfort. How did you feel at halftime? I felt way better and it wasn't even in the performance.

20:16Jamie: Can I be honest? I think it was just in like, this is again, the momentum of the form. and I think I truly like had comfort in the fact that after halftime, René Slagas is going to do a better job at analysing that first half and coming into the second half. And you can say if that was the truth or not because obviously it's very even second half again. But I was just – I was very, very optimistic in the way that Arsenal could correct – or not even correct, just solidify, consolidate what was going on. I really – yeah, halftime I think right now watching this Arsenal women's team provides me a lot of comfort because I think the backroom are doing something right And that's why we're finishing games so much better than we used to.

20:50Jamie: It used to be the first half, first 30 minutes, and then we finished games really bad. Now we're finishing games really well. We're scoring lots of goals. We're correcting. So yeah, I didn't actually feel too bad. I didn't think we were going to come out and dominate, but I did think we were going to do enough to kind of consolidate at least the defensive structure because it was really, really strong. So yeah, I felt a lot better. I was no longer feeling awful in the stomach. Yeah, yeah. We'll go into the second half because I think that so much happened at the end. that maybe it's worth reflecting on the fact that actually not a lot happened until about the kind of 79th, 80th minute, which probably reflects your feeling more than it does mine.

21:28But given we've done the first half, that feels like a good time to take a little break and we will be back after these messages to analyse, well, I say a crazy second half, but certainly a crazy last few minutes. We'll be back right after this.

21:49Hi, friends. Grace from the Working Hard podcast here. When you're stretching every dollar, a little goes a long way, and Walmart Business is here to help. They make it easy to order what you need from tech and cleaning supplies to everyday essentials, all at low prices and with helpful tools like spend tracking and tax-exempt purchasing for eligible organizations. Because when your operations are smooth, your impact can be bigger. Visit business.warmart.com to get started. Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, Senior Sports Editor from The Guardian.

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23:53states.

23:56Okay, welcome back to the Arsenal Women Ask Cast on AskBlog.com. Looking back at Wednesday night's defeat, victory, aggregate victory, whatever you want to call it, Arsenal are through to the Champions League semifinals. and we discussed the first half, maybe Arsenal got away with a few things in terms of chances Chelsea had, but overall still looked okay, I think still looked reasonably solid at the same time. I think those two things are both definitely true. And what's kind of weird, Jamie, when I reflect on this game and I was putting the running order together, the second half looks chunky, right?

24:33But it's all from the 80th minute onwards. And actually, it was attack v defence. Before we go into all the crazy stuff that did happen, it was kind of attack v defence. But Chelsea didn't create an awful lot in that period. However, they do get one very good chance. Nushkin hits a really good kind of cross-field pass. Sam Kerr, first touch, incredible. The first time, because Arsenal had gone forward and it was one of the first times where they didn't have a lot of bodies back and Sam Kerr checks back on her right foot and Daphne van Domselaar makes the first of a series of fantastic saves and I felt Jamie watching this, you can tell Sam Kerr is not the player she was which I think is understandable given the knee injury and how long she's been out and I think she's 32 now like I think it's entirely understandable but Chelsea like left her on for the whole game because they need goals so even if she's not really contributing very much to the all-round game which I don't think she did like she can get you a goal and this should have been a goal really but I look back at the Lauren James goal in the first leg and I can't remember if I I said this on the last podcast.

26:01I just had that little voice in the back of my head that said, that's not Bourbon's fault. I don't think many goalkeepers say if that, but Daphna might. She might. And I appreciate this Sam Kershaw is not as in the top corner as that Lauren James one, but I think this was, and what followed was a very good illustration of why Renee Slagers put her compatriot in goal for this game.

26:26Jamie: Phenomenal. Oh my gosh. I think this was the point that I celebrated the hardest in this game. Like this was full, like getting off the couch, yelling very loudly, upsetting the neighbours. This is just phenomenal. And obviously the whole performance is phenomenal. But this save is just, these are the moments, right? And I think when you talk about Arsenal-Chelsea over the last, this season in particular, and obviously last season, two close ties as well, it is always like very, very small details that make up a game. And it's not going to be like this whole. And I think maybe the only outlier is when Jonas' last game, because that was like genuinely horrible, and the first 10 minutes were horrible.

27:02Jamie: But then if you look at the rest of the game, like Arsenal actually weren't bad. So it was like that one moment where they collapsed was decided the tie. Obviously, the penalty at Stamford Bridge when Katie McCabe got sent off, Kim Little fouled Lauren James, that was the moment. That game could have gone either way. The Emirates game where there was all the disallowed goals, that again felt completely 50-50. And I think both sides are going to come away with that and say, oh, I thought Arsenal was a better team. And Chelsea reporters and Chelsea fans are going to say, no, we had the moments. Like, we should have scored more goals, whatever.

27:32Jamie: I think the only outlier is maybe the Stamford Bridge game this season because it did feel like Arsenal has completely overran Chelsea and that was a systematic thing. But usually in these games, even at Molineux, like in the Conti Cup final, the one before that as well, like it's always one moment. And in this game, I think there's a few moments because like Nuskin and Thompson, there's a lot of misses. But this is the moment that I think it feels like and the next one that happens with Daphna as well. it feels like this is the fixture. And it did feel like Chelsea could not, like it just wasn't their day.

28:00Jamie: And this was something that I think defined it. And when a save is that good and a goalkeeper pulls out something like that, it just felt like, no, that's the defining moment of this tie. It could go to extra time, but I think that that gives Arsenal enough. And I think that kind of is maybe washed it and watered down a little bit because of the disallowed goal that comes a bit later. But it's these kind of things that happen in these London derbies. And I think Daphna, her performance is the reason Arsenal win this tie. And I know that's like oversimplifying a lot of things, but I think that is just the truth.

28:30Jamie: So many goals could have been scored. So she was the moment. And I think it was a Hall of Fame performance. Like it was absolutely sensational. And this is the save that I just think sets the tone and really frustrates Chelsea. And they start to kind of maybe panic and get a little bit more antsy after this as well. Yeah, definitely. And there'll be more to say about Daphna a bit later, but I'm with you. I felt that Chelsea, around 75 minutes, started to lose hope because they didn't have as many chances as they did in the first half. They create that good one. Daphna makes the save and then it becomes very attack v defence.

29:04But I think Arsenal, look, it's too much to say comfortable, but I felt the hope drain from Chelsea a little bit. I felt that kind of, we can't get through them. We needed to take those chances. This isn't going to be our night. And then we talked about a variable being the referee letting things flow. And another variable is actually Arsenal start to press on a little bit. And Steiner has a couple of headers, one that actually hits Kim Little from a corner. And this is where I think I can tell Chelsea are starting to lose a bit of hope. They're just not running back with the same intensity and ferocity, almost like kind of letting no again it's too much say letting it happen but just losing that half second that kind of uh we're not going to win this type thing and then what what happens is that uh Holmberg crosses the ball to Steiner Blackstenia she heads it in I mean I did think when she received the ball in the build-up I looked straight at the linesman uh sorry the assistant referee and i thought that this is going to get reviewed uh basically that that felt a very maybe you're offside but you know what let's let's let it run and let var decide it and obviously like if that had gone in i think you certainly heard and i saw the away end that was a it was limbs it was a we won this and then of course it gets chalked off rightly um for offside and that changes the whole energy of the last 10 minutes.

30:44I think if that had never happened, I think this game just drifts to nil-nil. But that gave the stadium a massive jolt of energy. And I think that completely transforms what happened in the last kind of 10 minutes. And then Chelsea goes straight up the other end and so nearly score. I think it's across from Lauren James and I think Nushkin heads it like just wide I mean if that goes in I think we're potentially talking about a different outcome here but I mean did you feel that watching at home that the energy of this game totally flipped on that moment yeah this is the worst thing that could have happened to Arsenal

31:27Jamie: I think in this moment to be honest when the goal went in I was sitting on the couch and I said I was with I was sitting next to my partner and I said we are not celebrating like oh until VAR intervenes I was like it very well maybe on side but I can't I'm not moving my body I'm just I'm just gonna stare ahead and rightfully so because I think I just don't want to break my own heart in those moments but yeah it obviously gets ruled off and yeah it's again we need to speak about the disallowed goal like Smilla-Holmberg again like this this is a player that we could probably speak about forever but another fantastic assist that there isn't meant to be but this is the worst thing that could happen to Arsenal in this moment like it felt a little bit like Sanford Bridge comes alive the Chelsea fans decide that they actually want to have a voice that's a joke they were actually quite good in this picture I heard them um they but this is just yeah the momentum completely shifts the players kind of think oh no this is still on like if that's not in for some reason the players then decide no this is the time for us to come back and score two goals against Arsenal so yeah I think the energy shift was massive and it did feel like it wasn't like Arsenal were scrambling but it did feel like Chelsea were just like no this is it like we are going to we're going to put the ball in the back of the net it wasn't even necessarily Arsenal losing their heads I just thought Chelsea did a really good job at carrying that momentum and I was stressed it felt like at the Emirates two seasons ago when we were 1-0 down to Aston Villa and then there was like 12 minutes or something given and then like the Emirates was just like came alive and then Arsenal just it was like a completely new team yeah it was a completely new team and then obviously Russo like scores her it was just that's kind of what it felt like because it was such a dull performance up until then and then they just they came alive so oh my gosh Tim I was so nervous I was actually watching from across the room like you know when you think if you half watch it nothing bad's gonna happen so yeah not a great not a great uh period of time no and then I'm with you as well in that I don't think Arsenal like lost their heads or anything it was pure Chelsea energy momentum the crowd got up the players got up they fed off that energy however However, I do think while this wasn't a Mariana game, right, it just wasn't from the beginning.

33:32I mean that not because I think she played badly, but the way Arsenal were both being forced to play and had to play, it's just like you're not going to get the best of Mariana. I thought she was perfectly fine. She does her work off the ball really, really diligently anyway. But we do the Laia Kadina five at the back, you know the old rob holding coming on holding up five fingers type thing and i do think i'd like us to stop doing that because as much as i think psychologically we were reasonably together i think tactically we just we lost some control in doing that and i think that's happened a few

34:15Jamie: times now yeah this double substitution actually made my head so hot i was so stressed i think i actually felt comfortable until this this happened and it was also freedom morning which again i just thought why why like this is i think i said like um i was saying like this is the only game where it's she's an unused sub like and that's okay like because she's not over on like yeah someone who takes the ball in tight areas might win you a free kick can do some foul exactly yeah i was like this is the game where she needs to be an unused sub and you bring her on and you bring Nakadina on. So suddenly you've got a back five and you've got no one.

34:50Jamie: Like it's just a pool of nothingness. And Alessia Russo has to carry the ball forward like herself, like I think twice, it's almost identical move. So yeah, I was this, this double substitution I did feel like was a little bit self-destructive because it did make Arsenal lose complete control and there was still long enough net left where Chelsea get a goal and suddenly you're at three, three, like it wasn't like they needed to win the game they just needed to get it to extra time so yeah this double substitution I thought was the only point of the game where I thought I don't really know what Rene's doing because this seems like you're you're trying to self-implode yeah and it got dicey after that you know Lauren James goes into kind of turbo mode um has a shot which Van Domslaar saves and Berman puts the rebound onto the post but then um after that you get Lauren Lauren Bronze lucy bronze uh lucy james lauren bronze um puts in a cross nushkin header and it's one of those again like stadiums are very intelligent um in that when you're watching a game you get a really good sense of when the ball's going in or when it's not and sometimes you get tricked right sometimes you get tricked either because someone's done something brilliant and ball goes in when you don't expect it or the goalkeeper does something brilliant and keeps it out and and you really sense that in a football stadium because everyone's up basically everyone you know your your eyes sometimes when you're watching football your eyes just project ahead and you see a cross come in and you see someone meet the header sweetly like that and it's going in the corner and your brain fast forwards and you go well i've seen this a million times and it goes in and that domps and and everyone's up on their feet.

36:40And the save from Van Domslaar to tip that onto the post, the strength in the arm as well. I mean, I think it was a brave call to put Van Domslaar back in because she hasn't been herself this season. I asked Rene about it afterwards. And when I asked Rene about it the day before the game and I asked the kind of leading question about, oh, you brought another two goalkeepers in in January. Did you have any fitness concerns over your first two choices kind of thing um and she's like no no no no no no no no of course not um but then after this game she's like yeah Daphna hasn't been fit for you know the whole season and all of that and uh and and and we can see that right we've all got eyes like we can see she hasn't quite been herself but ultimately when it comes to it in the big games in the biggest game for your life you trust your big players and um i'm just going to play a little clip here jamie of full time i was taking a video of the arsenal fans because they started singing champions of europe you'll never sing that as the players come over and then they stop and daphna starts to come over obviously she's the goalkeeper so she's the last there and the arsenal fans stop and they sing her chant and here it is

38:10yeah and and again when i say stadiums are intelligent like the arsenal fans even though these saves happened about 100 yards away from where they're sitting that that's what everyone realizes it's just like this player has won us this tie like like I do think you boil it down that simply and this was um a save and a goalkeeping performance befitting of the occasion and the stage and I'm just really happy for Daphne because it hasn't really happened for her this season but this was big stage bright lights and Rene talked about coming into this game mentally for her having had you know period out with injury and not really been herself and she lost her place in the Dutch team in the last international break but like when you're world class you're world class and that just doesn't leave you certainly this is another another save that again you

39:08Jamie: you'll remember that for the rest of your career and this is a performance I think that has like made Daphne van Domslaar like I know that we all know how good she is at Arsenal and we know how like in Europe we know how good she is but this is a performance that puts her at the very top like of the goalkeeper standings like this is just again game saving I agree Tim like this I think she wins the tie for Arsenal like there are so many moments in this game where Chelsea the door's left open and and they can equalize or they can score another one and they can it just feels like there's so many moments where she just chips away at their hope and like if that's just what every good goalkeeper does it's just like the ball will not go past me no matter what you can do and obviously it does but in a completely different in a completely different way and some of the saves they're just like you have no right to be saving those goals and I think this again like feeds into just the culture of this team right now when you look at Renee and something that I think is her biggest strength and we spoke about at the start of her tenure how she was obviously a very like big big one-on-one player development coach before she before she became the head coach and that was her role was very one-on-one with the players this feeds into how Arsenal perform and it really really worked at the start of the tenure but then it became okay is this enough like when does the tactics come in and she has showed over the last six months that her tactical brain is fantastic and enough to carry Arsenal to wherever they need to be carried but again I think so much of her success boils down to how good she is with these people and it comes with Daphna she's not had a great season like even when she's played it's not been great like there's been a couple performances that haven't been great and obviously her fitness she has not been fit since she got to the WSL.

40:38Jamie: It's not even just Arsenal. She got like a full hip surgery at Aston Villa. Remember, she was their big marquee signing. She hardly played. And then she came to Arsenal still unfit. She's never been fit since playing in the WSL, like for years now. And this is her kind of time. And I think she struggled a little bit. And obviously the setbacks and you've got Balba coming in and doing a really good job and no one really expected her to do that job. But what it comes down to is Rene's ability to be like, no this is this is who you are as a goalkeeper this is who we trust you to be we know your level whatever happened against Tottenham doesn't matter I'm playing you against Tottenham because you're the goalkeeper for this tie and I know that you can do it and Daphna goes and shows up in a performance like that it just goes to show and I'm not saying Renee caused her to do that she's a world-class player that can have these performances but I don't think a lot of managers would take that risk like on a player that's been unfit player that's been struggling we've seen a lot of managers not take that risk and they fall off because of it so yeah I just think this is a really really like prime example of why the slaggers like renaissance is working so well because these players are becoming reformed and it's so exciting to see that still happening and it's so it's so evident in goalkeepers because it's such a psychological position so a fantastic world-class performance something i think arsenal fans will have to thank dafna for forever and and maybe you didn't you never know how that leon game will be speaking about it longer but we'll see so yeah marvelous tim honestly yeah this this was the goalkeeper we you know were putting in goal last season with any number of injections when she wasn't fit, and this is why.

42:08And then the game just continues to go crazy here. Beth Mead chops the ball back, and the Beth Mead chop, as it were, and hits the post, and that would have ended the game. And then Nushkin scores. And at this point, because for UEFA games on the scoreboard, after injury time, they just stop the clock, which is really annoying because in the Premier League they keep it running so you can see how much of injury time's elapsed. And so much was happening. I had no idea how far we were into injury time. I was like, could be one minute, could be five minutes. We could kick off and this could be over.

42:44I had no idea. I've had to go back and look and it was 93 minutes. So there was another two minutes. But Nushkin scores and I kind of think, okay, I think if we take centre and just keep the ball and keep it in the corner, and there was a lot of corner flag shenanigans. I mean, also in the build-up to the goal, we should say as well, Caitlin Ford goes through and it's one of those, either blast the ball as hard as you can at the goal and it either goes in or it goes out the stadium, either one works or go to the corner flag, don't do a cutback, right? Like smash the ball, do what she did in Lyon, like put your foot behind that ball and if it goes over, it's going into the Arsenal fans.

43:30It's not coming back quickly. And if it goes in, the game's over. Don't do a pullback there. Any other time in the game, fine. Not in that game state. And that's when Chelsea come forward and score. But we have to talk about what unfolded in the last 30 seconds of the game. I'll preface this, Jamie, by saying I understand why Chelsea focused on this. I understand why Chelsea fans focused on this. It all happened so late in the game. Obviously, it was going to dominate the kind of conversation. I kind of think it's a real sidebar because it happens with 20 seconds left. I think it has no bearing on the outcome.

44:07And I kind of think it's a shame to make 180 minutes of football like this and boil it down to something like this, really. However, I think we can both say Katie McCabe should have been sent off. No problem there, really. what's your view on you know i guess what she was trying to do and she was she was contrite very quickly and even when katie does make a you know a foul or something she does she doesn't always do that she's generally quite unrepentant about you know um cynicism which which to me suggests i don't think she was trying to grab the hair i think she's trying to grab the shirt she was very quick to say that on her Instagram afterwards but what did you make of that incident?

44:56Jamie: Yeah I agree with the sentiment that this is a isolated moment that has completely like taken over the whole narrative of this tie and it's really disappointing because I think we've waited for Arsenal Chelsea in the Champions League for so long and this is like the this is the game of the round and this is the game that I think both sets of fans are waiting to see so I think it opens up a few conversations and obviously yeah this is a clear red card like she should be sent off. I have no understanding of why that's not the case. I think there's been a couple of decisions in this, in this both legs over both legs where it's like, oh, accidental is, is the reason why things aren't being sent off.

45:31Jamie: And obviously I think we both mutually agreed last week, the Buchanan foul was not a red card because she hits the ball and it's, it's a different scenario. This one's a red card. Like that's a red card. That's a red card action every day of the week. So it is really, really frustrating when like I have to say it's incompetence from VAR. It's proved that this Champions League quarterfinals across all games, that there is an incompetence from VAR and it's overshadowing the narratives of these games. And it's really, really frustrating because why do we have it? I don't understand why we have VAR if this is what's going to happen.

46:02Jamie: It's making these fixtures so much more than they need to be. And I can understand why the referee hasn't called this a red card because she's probably not seen it from that angle. I don't understand how VAR has gotten rid of it and it's annoying because that's now overshadowing the, it's overcomplicating, it's overshadowing this entire fixture. In terms of the action, I think Katie McCabe, if you're going for the shirt, I think every player on the pitch is going to do that in this moment. You don't want Alyssa Thompson running down the wing and I completely understand if that's your intention, why that's happening.

46:31Jamie: That's a yellow card. Like you've got to kind of do that with the dying seconds of the game. You don't know what a player like Alyssa Thompson is going to do. I still think though you need to have the in-game intelligence to like you're not going to be able to do that successfully. just like even with Alyssa Thompson's hair like you're not going to be able to get past and and get the shirt like this is a really quick player it feels like a very snap brainless brainless moment and I think we've seen that and I don't want to the other thing is there's a pylon on Katie McCabe on social media that I think is horrendous and then Arsenal fans are retaliating by involving other players that don't need to be involved and there's a pylon on so many players right now that just it's just we don't need that in the game and obviously Katie McCabe has come out and apologize but then arsenal fans are kind of using it to point score and being like oh but this also happened in the game so let's like pile on a chelsea play let's not do that at all like and i think something that annoys me in football not to get off topic is the oh but that happened and that didn't get called so that deserves to not get called it's a red card like i don't really care what else happened in these fixtures and i think we do that too much in women's football with screenshots and stop it like stop it yeah yeah so to come down to it i just think yeah it's it's a red card I think Katie McCade that's something that it's her weakest point in her game is this kind of like quick decisions and she really can turn a tie and I don't like the narrative that it goes unpunished because that's not true she literally got red carded sent off at the exact same stadium a year ago like she is punished she's over punished sometimes but this is horrible example of something that needs to be a red card regardless of intent and it just I think it opens up the water what the wider discussion of AAR Tim and it's just it's useless there's no point for it right now in the women's game yeah and you know Sonia Bonpastor sent off in the melee I mean she gets two yellow cards in quick succession one and this is where I thought the referee was pretty consistent for like 80 odd minutes and when the game went mad I think she lost it a little bit because Sonia Bonpastor's first booking was for coming onto the pitch to try and retrieve the ball and then she gets the second booking for for being upset about the and when i say for being upset i mean i i think sonia bonpastor deserves to be sent off i both understand why she was so annoyed but also it's it's a sending off and like i don't know how this is going to come across but like obviously you know as a journalist whatever sitting in the press box being objective i can say that's a red card and you know sonia bonpastor overreacted i understand why she overreacted but like i i don't and have never really cared about any of that stuff like i think sonia bonpastor you know loses her head a bit by her own admission she should be sent off all fine with me don't care really and and like the arsenal fan in me um i i don't think i don't know i don't think we need a massive discourse about everything she should have been sent off she wasn't like the fan in me the partisan fan in me doesn't care about that to be honest like um and i don't think i need to like uh wear a hair shirt about it and say oh we should have had a player sent off like the fan in me doesn't care really like um and i think fans have a right to be like that which is what i mean about i understand why chelsea fans will be annoyed about it and will you know focus on that and on the the goal in the first leg because fans don't have a duty or responsibility to not be partisan and not look at things through their own lens um but yeah i i think you know look it should have been a red card it wasn't it had no out bearing on the outcome i don't think chelsea get a free kick goes into the box balls cleared final whistle goes like i don't know maybe you can tell me that being down to 10 might have made that free kick a bit different, might have, probably wouldn't have, to be honest.

50:25So yeah, there's a lot of drama there. And I think it's like worthy of discussion. I don't think it's the story of the whole tie. I think the disallowed goal in the first leg, if you wanted to make it about refereeing and officiating calls, that's more of a tie changer. But I think what we got overall was just two slugfests the two biggest teams in England with the biggest rivalry and they just they swung at each other for 180 minutes and and if I was in neutral watching that I'd think that was all great fun and I don't think we need to pearl clutch over things too much but then obviously I'm saying that from a position of victory and had we lost and been victims some bad decisions That is obviously not what I'd be saying because obvious thing is obvious.

51:12But Jamie, on finishing, it's going to be Leon again in the semi-final. Again, as you said, not to diminish Wolfsburg or to say we would have easily walked all over them because I don't think we've ever beaten them actually. So we don't have the right to say that, but I'd have preferred to play them. Leon, I think are the only team that have properly outclassed us this season. But watching this game, you know, this Leon Wolfsburg game was weird. It was attack v defence and Leon dominant until the last 10 yards. And for some reason they kept going to pieces. But I still make them slight favourites for this semi-final.

51:51But I'm certainly not writing us off either. How do you see it?

51:56Jamie: Yeah, I'm not writing us off at all. I think that we'll learn a lot from the tie earlier in the season. Obviously, we can't learn a lot from last season because it's a different manager. on their side, a very, very good manager, a proven winner, especially in the Champions League in Jonathan Grealdes. So, yeah, I would say that Lyon are favourites. I think that I don't like the home and away. I don't like playing away second and obviously it worked for us last time, but I think that you've got a situation now where both teams are in form going into the semi-final. I think it's going to be a really, really good battle and I don't think it's going to look anything like it did last season in that semi-final.

52:31Jamie: So I'd say I'd tip Lyon just slightly, but I actually think it's quite 50-50. I think this is going to be a really, really juicy fixture, maybe better than Barcelona-Bayern, but maybe Bayern will surprise us. Who knows? So, yeah, I think it's going to be even, Tim, and I'm very, very excited. Yeah, I read someone tweeted earlier that you don't get many penalty shootouts in the Women's Champions League for some reason. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw one in this tie, but that is all ahead of us. and before that we have an FA Cup quarterfinal against Brighton on Sunday. We will bring you a podcast after that which we will have to record on Sunday night because I'm flying to Lisbon on Monday for the Men's Champions League.

53:14All of the potential fixtures and where they might fall and men and women and there could be four finals in May between the two teams. So I hope there are, but it's going to be a bit of a logistical nightmare if that's the case. But still, let's hope it happens, Jamie. I mean, that was a real whirlwind game, but I walked out of West London with a bit of a spring in my step. And, you know, once I got out of there, once I got out of the media room, I'd done my bit, you know, So a little bit of air punching, a little bit of fist clenching, walking down the street and very happy that we're through.

53:55I think that will do for that.

53:57Jamie: That will do. Champions of Europe, the only in the land, another season that continues, Tim. Absolutely. And I'm sure Arsenal fans will continue to remind Chelsea fans of that in corresponding fixtures, maybe even the FA Cup final. That could still happen as well. My God. with this kind of win behind it, what a game that would be. But again, again, all ahead of us. Lots and lots to do before that. And we'll be talking about it all on this podcast. So do stay with us. Like I said at the top of the show, I was also on Counterpressed this week if you're interested in that little bit of Bayern Munich-Manchester United chat in there as well with Catherine Batty from The Telegraph.

54:37But that's quite enough of that. Thanks very much for listening. Apologies, it's probably a day later than it should have been. But we will be very punctual with our Post Brighton podcast for you and they'll be ready for you Monday morning UK time. So until then, take it easy and we'll see you then.

55:20We'll see you next time.

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