Arsenal Women Arsecast Episode 162: Gunners bow out of the FA Cup

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0:30Hello and welcome to the Arsenal Women Arsecast and Arseblog.com with me your host Tim Stillman looking back on Sunday afternoons 2-0 defeat to Brighton & Hove Albion at Meadow Park as Arsenal exit the FA Cup and that decade long wait to lift the FA Cup goes on for another year. Arsenal women won clubbing it hard this weekend and I was at both games this weekend so had better footballing weekends. However, we're here as we always are, a little bit of therapy maybe, last game before the international break and here to break the game down with me as ever is our co-host Jamie Spanger. Jamie, how are you doing?

1:10Ah, Tim, who needs the FA Cup? Honestly, it's a fable competition that doesn't actually matter anyway so we've got bigger things to worry about uh no I'm sour I'm sour but I'm ready to speak about it and I think this always does tend to help Tim so I'm good I have there's bigger issues in the world than Arsenal I guess yeah I mean my day started quite inauspiciously I went down to Southampton for the men's game obviously stupid kickoff time so I had to stay over the first mistake I made and I didn't do this deliberately i booked a hotel that had a 24 hour bar um and that allied with the fact that i was planning to get the 721 train out of southampton central station this morning 24 hour bar and 6 30 a.m wake up don't go together particularly well so um my attempt to get the 721 out of southampton central woke up at 10 past eight um suboptimal really if to wake up 50 minutes after the train leaves quickly looked at my phone there was a train at 8 26 so i had to run for that so having like literally been awake about three seconds i just had to get out the hotel sprint to the station just made the train um because there wasn't another one for an hour after that and i'd been pushing kickoff um for that so um yeah not not the greatest start and you know me i like to get to the statement about two hours before but i got i got there an hour before um instead and really that that kind of set the tone for the day um to be quite honest and we're recording this sunday evening because i'm flying to lisbon tomorrow for uh the men's game and um it's it's all a bit it's all a bit hectic and uh I'm pretty tired and so too Jamie or Arsenal really in this game I think you know we'll get into it I think there's there's quite a bit of fatigue I think when you know Arsenal makes six changes um in the starting lineup so Smilla Holmberg, Taylor Hines, Laia Kadina, Chloe Kelly, Beth Mead and Frieda Mornham come in and I think Jamie this thing happens and it happens with the men's team and the women's team and all the big teams basically in the cups you rotate and you probably know you almost certainly know you're not going to get your best performance because players don't play together very often and you try and get away with it essentially and my take on this game is we probably knew we were going to be a bit six out of ten maybe we were even a bit lower than that and Brighton were really good and that felt like the story for me how did you see it overall yeah that's exactly it I do think in these kind of games you always expect rotation as you said I think in I think when you look at the starting lineup it's a good starting lineup for Arsenal but I do but I do think we've gone into this game with a level of complacency that doesn't match the the talent that Brighton have and we forgot that they are a WSL team they're not near the bottom they can really really perform against good sides when they want to they've caused us troubles and trouble in the past so I do think this is a complacent kind of game plan.

4:23And it's not just the lineup. I think the way that Arsenal play this entire 90 minutes out, you're not really matching that, oh, let's rotate and let's get ready for a big international break. And then a really big end of April after that with the level of Brighton. And I think that was where it fell short because I don't think that Arsenal just, it wasn't one of those games against these mid table teams where Arsenal were banging on the door, banging on the door, banging on the door. Brighton played really, really well. And they, they executed exactly what they wanted to do. And the first 20 minutes set the exact tone for what they wanted to do across the whole game so I think that transpired in the lineup and I just thought yeah that's a lot of changes for a game that really does matter because we're we didn't win the league cup and the WSL's out of reach so yeah stressed me out from the outset I think yeah I was expecting so you know it it's a slow start to the game as well I was fully expecting that because again when you make it like for me I feel a bit sympathetic to Rene for this I think you have to rotate after two massive games like Chelsea, which are both physically and mentally very, very kind of tiring.

5:26So I did think they had to make changes. I read those names out, like Chloe Kelly, Beth Mead, Freedom Warner, there's not a big problem there, bringing players like that in. But I think as well, some of the players that weren't rotated, you know midfield for example look very very leggy look slightly off it I thought this wasn't Lotta's best performance she's been brilliant recently and she looked a little bit off it I think even the players that played on Wednesday looked very tired but it's a really slow start and I think it's it's also I said I was expecting that I think Dario Vidicic was expecting it as well because Brighton fly out of the blocks and it's very clear to me they had a conversation about Arsenal made changes, going to take some time to get to grips.

6:15So yeah, it was pretty leggy. But, you know, Daphne van Domslaar makes a save from Gankovic. Madison Haley has a header kind of cleared off the line from a corner. Vanagas has a shot saved by DVD. I mean, the first, I always had the feeling. And again, I think this pattern happens in all of these cup games. The first 15 minutes, you make a lot of changes. You have a big game on Wednesday night. you're going to start slowly and you kind of have to survive the first 15 minutes and we did just about so how did you see those first kind of 10-15 minutes where really Van Domslaar kind of keeps us in it a little bit yeah the first 15 minutes were suffocating it was it was a Brighton team I think were really set up well to press and they did that in their lineup to be completely honest like Kiko Seki is probably one of the best number nines in the league to be a pressing nine and to really kind of overrun a defence.

7:10And then you have Fran Kirby. Madison Haley, I think, is a player that's really underrated. I remember watching her like, I think it was last season at the very start of the season at the Amex against Manchester United. And this is a player that's really, really dynamic as well. And she drops back a lot for Brighton and does so in this game as well. But I think Brighton are set up exactly for this reason. They know exactly that Arsenal are going to be tired. They're going to be on the ropes. It was a really big midweek game. And like you said, Dario Vitisic prepared for this start and this starting 11 prepared for this start.

7:36And I don't think that the Arsenal starting 11 was kind of ready to face that. Obviously, I think it was a very offensive attacking team. Every time you have Frieda Mornemann in the 10, your mind kind of goes that way, even if it's not. Smilla Holmberg is obviously basically another winger when she's playing fullback as well. So I do think Arsenal kind of came out the gates with the team that was ready to play the offensive and Brighton were just ready to press them and not let them play the ball through the line. And I think that's exactly what they did. And to be completely fair, I think this Brighton press was formidable in the first 20, 30 minutes as well and they deserve that kind of fast start they probably deserved a goal from it to be honest um Arsenal does really like a really good job to kind of hold on because yeah it didn't look good in the first 20 minutes another goalkeeper scenario where she's keeping us in the game but it's harder to criticize Arsenal and kind of praise Brighton for their their pressure in the first 20 minutes I thought their press was so well organized so well disciplined so yeah really really shaky start for the Gunners yeah definitely and yeah like the Brighton press is is very very good um and you know after the game as well we've had we'll park this to the second half because we've got questions about about like the conditions i think the conditions were fine it was a bit of a windy day i think the pitch was fine i the the fa cup ball is like a borderline disgrace it's it's like a one pound petrol station job and like nobody could get it under control neither team And I think that did impact both teams equally, actually.

9:05I've kind of bristled against it. It's the same for both teams because it isn't always. It depends who wants the ball. But Brighton do want the ball and they possess the ball and they want to attack as well. So I do think the impact of it was equal. But this ball is just absurd. It's so difficult. It spins everywhere. It bounces everywhere. No one was really getting it under control. and one of the things Renee said afterwards, I asked her how much the Chelsea game had an impact on this performance and she said, I think it had. We didn't want it to and we were very conscious of it. If you look at the games we've played, the North London derby in between, short turnarounds, it's been very intense.

9:45We were aware of that and we didn't want to focus on that too much and what the negative effect could be on the performance, but we should have dealt with it better. She was talking as well about the marginals, like getting the ball under control, second balls, high balls, and Brighton were kind of first to those. But Arsenal do come back into it after that. Mariana has a shot saved by Nadozi, but Arsenal's probably their best chance of the game. I think it's Mariana, Loftzer across to the back post, Smiller-Holmberg meets it. Nadozi makes a great save from close range. And, you know, talking about marginals in this game, I thought Nadozi was, I think she's a superb goalkeeper.

10:32I think she really made a difference in this game as well. She's outstanding. Like I remember when she was at Paris FC, obviously after the 2023 World Cup, and I think she was a big talking point from that World Cup and how formidable she is as a goalkeeper and kind of up and coming. But her move to the WSL was pending. I think it was interest from Everton at first, and then she obviously went to Brighton. And that was at the time, I think, a move that a lot of people maybe didn't have enough eyes on because, yeah, she's an incredible goalkeeper. She's very, very vocal, commands the area, but she's also really good with her feet.

11:04And obviously we saw that she's a really good stop, stop, shot stopper. So that has, that really impacted Arsenal because it did feel like, yes, the close range. She was making a lot of saves and it is those marginal moments. And we spoke about that when it comes to Daphne van Domstelaar against Chelsea, like it's those marginal moments. and when they don't go in your favor, you have to praise the goalkeeper that's doing them because that's a fantastic save. It's on the death, on the line, just stretch your body out and hope that it hits one of your limbs kind of save. But her in the game, it's not just her goalkeeping that actually it hurts Arsenal.

11:35Brighton are actually able to use the ball. And you mentioned the ball and I know we don't like talking about these kind of factors, but it's 100 % a factor in this game, like it is because Arsenal are trying to play out. They can't. When Brighton are pressing, it's hard to play through a press with a ball like that. It's like one of the ones that when you're playing in the schoolyard and it gets really wet because it's been raining and it hits you and it's like the worst pain in the entire world. It feels like one of those really heavy ones. But that was happening and Arsenal can't play through the press.

12:01Brighton want to do the exact same thing, but I think Nidozia just does a better job at Van Domslaar, like at using the ball. And I think that that, at the end of the day, allows Brighton to have more breathing room going forward as well and it takes the pressure off a lot. And that happens in this game. And it's not just the goalkeeping saves, it's also the usage of the ball. And I think, yeah, she was instrumental for Brighton. But I do think Arsenal kind of, like you said, they do get back into the game a little bit. But something that Brighton do really well when Arsenal do start to get into the game is they just don't give them the central areas.

12:29And in this game, like Arsenal really, really want the central areas. Like you really want your middle players to have the ball. You want your freedom on them to be able to get a run on and get the ball. But that's just not allowed. And a lot of the work they have to do is from the channels. And then Brighton are just really, really good at picking that up. They've got quite like Charlie Rule and Caitlin Hayes are really good in there. Like they're not going to allow that if you're putting the ball in. And so I just think this is a really well-managed game. And I don't think Arsenal were good.

12:52And I think there's a lot of criticisms towards how they played. But I just think Brighton knew exactly what they needed to do. And even when Arsenal got on top of the ball, I still think they managed it really well. Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, when you look at how Brighton defended as well, they defend with quite a high line. I think Steiner was caught offside three, maybe four times in the game. It's another thing Nidozi allows them to do as well, because she's so good at leaving her line. and she intercepted quite a few balls over the top as well. But you mentioned the central areas there and I think you're right, Brighton did a really, really good job of not giving Arsenal that space.

13:28But at the same time, I think it's the one area of the pitch Arsenal didn't rotate. They stayed with Mariana and Kim Little. I understand that and I look back at my predicted line-up. I got 10 out of 11. I only got the goalkeeper wrong. I thought Borba would come in. So this was exactly what I thought Rene would do. And I think she stayed with that midfield too, just because they generally give us so much stability and there were so many other changes everywhere else. Obviously, we haven't got Kyra. I think if Kyra was part of the squad, she'd have played and one of them would have dropped out.

14:01But both of them, Jamie, looked absolutely cooked to me physically. There were a few times. You can tell Mariana's cooked when she doesn't counterpress. And there are a few times where she didn't. And I saw her puff her cheeks out and I just think it was a game too far probably for those two. And we could have done with maybe a bit of rotation in there. Personally, I understand why we didn't do it and make another set of changes there. But yeah, I think probably from those two, probably the kind of least impressive performance of the season for reasons I understand. 100%. 100%. And the ability to not be able to, that's where Arsenal shift the momentum.

14:44It's always where Arsenal shift the momentum. They did it against Chelsea as well. Like just one, just little singular moments when you've got either Kim or Mariona tracking back, winning the ball back over the attacking 10. Like there was just moments in this game where they would sit back rather than press the line and then come back. They would just sit back in the space and just allow that to happen. And then you lose an attacking threat going forward. And that's not their fault. Like they must be exhausted, the amount of playing time that they have. And obviously, I completely agree. If Kyrie's in the squad, she's playing this game.

15:12but it does point to the fact that what do you do in this game then? Like if you're not going to play them, who do you play? Because it has to be a makeshift pivot. It's not going to be someone that's naturally strong there. And then Arsenal put themselves in the position again when there's a breadth of competitions and you're not ready to play them and rotate effectively and you have to rely on these players because there's only so far rotation can take you if you're not going to rotate the players that actually need the rest. Like if you're going to rotate maybe, I just don't think like Alessia Russo is exhausted but we've seen how much of a workhorse she is and I don't want her to start this game.

15:41That's not what I'm saying. but I think we see less of the effects if she starts this game in terms of exhaustion. Someone like Emily Fox, you don't probably need to rest her in this fixture. Katie McCabe even, I think there's just players that are being rotated a lot so they're more fresh for these starting games. These two players aren't fresh. And that, again, it's like you need to have the depth there because these competitions keep on coming. It's the same time every single year where we fall out of a cup competition because we don't have the depth and we're overwhelmed with the champions.

16:08They got overwhelmed with something else. and I think yeah that just that just shoots us in the foot in this game because it's not Kim's fault it's not Mariona's fault they've played every single minute of every single game as much as they can to make an impact so yeah it's annoying and I think that's where recruitment does come into it a little bit because Tim we have the exact same run at the end of the season that we did last season and playing in the Champions League hopefully we don't we don't know about the final we're playing in the semi-finals we also have Leicester Brighton and Aston Villa all rescheduled the exact same three games that we had last season what happens if we don't have the depth it's not like we were in their fake up last season either so yeah I feel for them because they yeah they must be spent although very good that Kim gets a couple weeks off uh over international break and Mariona will definitely face some rotation under Spain so as well so yes hope for some exhaustion therapy from them yeah definitely and um yeah I think uh that we've got some questions about midfield and recruitment in the second half so we'll kind of go there then but it gets to halftime, it's nil-nil.

17:09And again, usually the pattern with these cup games when you rotate, I always think nil-nil is kind of all right because you're going to bear some scars. You're going to be a little bit disjointed. So kind of just get through it. And then maybe you get to 60 minutes nil-nil and then you call for the reinforcements at that stage. Didn't happen like that unfortunately and Brighton take the lead early in the second half Hayley scoring from Kirby's pass I think again in the build-up to this we see some of the problems of the ball where Laia Kadina a couple of times and a lot of players did this throughout the game weren't really trying to control the ball there are a lot of long balls because this thing's just flying all over the place.

17:59And even when players like Kim Little were doing up and unders, I think that tells you a lot. And I thought the pitch looked fine to me. That ball is really, really odd. So twice in the build-up, Kadena kind of gets rid of it. And then obviously it's a really good pass by Fran Kirby, who was outstanding in this game, gets player of the match. It's a brilliant finish as well. or Hayley's Comet, as it were. Do you have any issues with Kadena defensively in this goal?

18:36Defensively, you've skewed the question there in a way that I understand. So, I mean, do you think she should have got across and blocked the shot or stopped the shot coming in? I've seen people say that. Can I be honest? Like I said about what I said about Madison Hayley earlier, she's a really quick guttural player. Like she's very, very good at running the lines. And this is like the shot itself, goalkeeper's not doing anything. Like it's a fantastic goal. I think defensively, I think the reason maybe people grow issue with what happens here is it is Kadena's body positioning is an impact. It makes an impact on these games, like many, many games in a row.

19:13And we spoke about this exact thing, the Chelsea first home leg of the Champions League was the difference between her and Lota is when you're there, you're make, I'm putting this in very, very light air quotes because I'm not putting Lotta in this category, but like makeshift center backs is Lotta's body positioning is almost always elite. Like she's so good at stopping a striker's run and she's so, so good at just cutting out the channels because they can't get through her. Her body positioning is so good. Laia Kadina's body positioning is almost always flat footed. If you watch her and the strikers are coming at her, she's almost always facing them.

19:45Like she's either facing them on a slight angle, but she's almost always flat footed and she very, very rarely doesn't get turned. And And I think that is where there's issue because maybe if it's Lotta in this scenario, people think, hey, really bad mess up in possession, a great finish. These things happen. But I think it's a reoccurring event, Tim. I just I don't think like it in his body position as a centre back is good enough at any level. I just don't think it's good enough. I think she has some great attributes, but I think that fans are right to be disgruntled about this goal because it does feel like it's just a bit of a repeating pattern.

20:15And it's not necessarily the goal itself, if you know what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I totally get that. Yeah, she was probably a bit slow to it. We know that pace isn't her biggest attribute. And obviously there's a context here to a player who's probably not going to be at the club next season as well. And I don't, like, there are some things in this game. Like, I don't feel like I learned anything in this game, if that makes sense. And one thing I didn't learn is that, like, Because I already knew if you go down to your fifth choice centre-back, yeah, you're going to lose that half yard.

20:55I think about it, does Leah Williamson get there? I think maybe she does. Would Lota get there? Maybe Steph Catley probably would. It's not a howler or anything. It's not like a massive ricket, but it's just half a second off where the other centre-halves probably wouldn't have been. so at that point Arsenal immediately bring Lesley Russo, Caitlin Ford and Olivia Smith on for Chloe Kelly, he was very quiet Beth Mead was very quiet, Freedom Ornan was very quiet with the exception of Caitlin, I think Russo and Olivia Smith looked quite tired as well, they all played Wednesday night and again we were probably hoping to make that triple substitution at 0-0 or maybe even a goal up preferably, but we're 1-0 down.

21:44And at that point, Brighton do go a little bit lower and then they go 2-0 up. Kaitlyn Hayes with a header from Frank Kirby's corner. I thought Kaitlyn Hayes had a terrific game as well. It's another, I think, example that Brighton have a good eye for a player. They picked up Kaitlyn Hayes from Celtic and I think she's been a really good signing. Again, so I haven't seen any highlights yet because of the bizarre way that highlights work in the UK now where you can't see anything for about three days, for the first like three days after a game. And any issue, like I think it's a great header and it's right in the top corner, but did you have any kind of defensive issues with this one?

22:26And I guess people are bringing up, you know, the set piece thing, as it were. Yeah, I've actually got the goal right in front of me to watch it again. No one is marking Caitlin Hayes until she makes contact with the ball, which is an issue. She is being followed by, I believe it's Lota Wobbenmoy on the back post. No, it's Laia Kadina. It's Laia Kadina. Laia Kadina is already situated near the back post, so she's not actually on Caitlin Hayes. Caitlin Hayes is towards the front of the pack, makes a hook run towards the back post, and it goes into the back of the net. No one actually follows that run, though.

22:58She's making that run alone until Laia Kadina spots it and runs off the back post to meet her. So the pressure is there for the header. Caitlin Hayes, again, is a really good aerial player. Like anyone talk to Tom Ma from the halfway line about Caitlin Hayes. He's a big advocate. Obviously, she plays for Ireland. But yeah, she's a player that he's spoken a lot about. But she's very good in the air and she just makes an intelligent run. But Tim, no Arsenal player is tracking that run in this instance. So yeah, pretty shocking because you expect her to be one of the targets. So another example of maybe a little bit of a lackluster attitude in this game and a set piece, a great header, I agree, but a set piece that probably should have been followed a lot with a lot more discipline.

23:35Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and again, I can only speculate, but I think fatigue just comes into that. You just switch off for half a second. Do you run quite as hard? I think this game was kind of littered with that, really. And at that point, Brighton do sit back. The high line kind of goes because they can, because they've got the lead. And Arsenal don't really look like breaking them down. Kadena has a shot that Nadozi saves as well, but Arsenal don't really create very much. I don't know what the XG was on this game, but I'd be surprised if Arsenal got as high as one on XG. And ultimately, it's very disappointing to go out the FA Cup again.

24:18It was a tired, disjointed performance, which I was half expecting, but just hoping to get away with. But Brighton were good. Renee Slager said she could sense their hunger, that this was the biggest game of their season. And it's another year without the FA Cup, which is difficult for all of us to take, I think. Yeah, this one sucks. This one sucks. The FA Cup is a competition that we just need to win again because we own the FA Cup and we don't own it anymore. No, I'm frustrated, Tim. This is a frustrating thing that keeps happening every year. Obviously, last year happened as well. And it was kind of all masked up by the the big big historic win in Lisbon but the domestic cups have been something other than that's a lie the subway league cup has been something that we've enjoyed over the last five years but other than that like the domestic league cups is it just the point that we we really struggle in and I think the biggest takeaway that I've got from this game Tim is I think the way that we praised or specifically I praised like the ability to rotate and the depth over the last month is something that I still think is true and I don't think that I'm looking at the depth of this team and saying it's not there.

25:27Like we can't make wholesale changes and still play well because Renee has made a lot of like character changes in the last month and it's really, really worked in our favor. And she's brought players off the bench that have really made a big impact. So I'm not walking away from this game and saying the depth is not good and she doesn't trust the players. The depth is still not good enough. And I think two things can be true. I do think that it's not good enough and it's not existing in all the positions. And I think it really still does hit our tactical game when you have to make these changes.

25:55And that's something we need to be able to work on. I also think you need to look at it like it's really, really hard to have all those things in one team, though. A lot of teams have struggled with, like even Chelsea with Sonia Bonpastor, I think she made a comment in the January window saying she's still not happy with how much they've spent. And they've spent so much money on these players. Naomi Goma was sitting on the bench in that second leg of the Champions League and she was a million pounds. But it's really hard to strike a balance between you've got the depth, you've made all these signings.

26:20But also when it comes to that third rung, like you're no, it's not the WSL, it's not the Champions League. It's like an FA Cup quarterfinal after a really big block. That's the third rung of depth. How do you then still maintain your tactical prowess? And I think it's a really hard thing and it's a learning curve for Renee Slagers. And I think we forget how young she is, Tim, and we forget how young she is to this head coach role in Europe. She's obviously done it in Sweden, but now she's in England. And I think she will learn from this because it wasn't good enough. The performance wasn't good enough.

26:47The tactical, whatever she did tactically wasn't good enough. She lost the game on the touchline to Dario Vidasic. But I think it's a learning experience for her because how do you manage the big games, the second big games, and then you come to the FA Cup and this is still a massive game in the grand scheme of the season. You need to win this game because Arsenal now only have the Champions League. Like it's pretty ridiculous when you say it like that. So I think it's a learning for a lot of people and I think it's not just tactics. The squad isn't there and it's still not there and it's going to make for a big summer, a big summer turnover.

27:14over but I do think yeah she's a young manager and I still think there's a lot of learning to be done and that game probably this game probably reminded me of that yeah I think we came into the the season a player or two short was was what I always felt and it probably showed here to be honest but like I say I don't feel like I learned anything there and I kind of think that's probably known as well already so like i don't i don't think that anyone arsenal came out with any big revelations here um i think renee knows what's kind of head over in the market in terms of perhaps raising the floor a little bit of this squad but we kind of already know that like players are going to leave and that that's you know that that's going to happen and it just depends if we do it well um you know a lot of that work we know that's going to happen and it's just a case they've got to do it well.

28:10Why don't we take a break there and we will be back in part two with your questions submitted on Blue Sky right after this.

28:24Immersing yourself in all things soccer ahead of this summer's World Cup? I'm Alex Abnos, Senior Sports Editor from The Guardian. Whether you're a soccer beginner or you know the game inside and out, we've got you covered. From one of the fastest-growing soccer newsrooms, The Guardian brings you in-depth World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch, and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures, and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective, and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S.

28:56national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in The Guardian app, and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this… Well, I think the problem is if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile. Is it too much when it's this close? It's a bit much. It's a bit too real. Maybe you could just talk with a slight delay. Be sure to listen to our Football Weekly podcast for on-the-move expert analysis. The Guardian, bringing you the whole picture on soccer. Search Guardian Soccer for more. Hi friends, Grace from the Working Hard podcast here.

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30:17so welcome back to the arsenal women ask cast and askblog.com with tim stillman and jamie spanger overlooking or looking over rather overlooking i wouldn't mind overlooking this game to be honest looking over sunday's 2-0 fa cup defeat in the quarterfinals against brighton as ever we put out a call for questions on blue sky and gonna ask this one first jamie from ndmw should fans players and staff just put this game to one side and use the international break to help wipe the slate clean or do you believe there are any new significant takeaways to be applied either on or off the pitch for the rest of the season in summer recruitment.

31:02So I kind of said what I thought at the end of part one about that. What do you reckon? Yeah, well, the wiping, pushing this game aside is something that we have to do. There's no other choice because we've only got one thing to focus on now. And it's difficult. Arsenal are in a difficult scenario this season because the battle for top three in the WSL is a lot tighter. Last season, it was Manchester City were far behind the pack and they didn't even look like it. and Arsenal were very comfortable in that second spot to grab the Champions League spot. So it's a bit different this season because you're out of the FA Cup now.

31:35Your only hope at a trophy is winning the Champions League again, which is going to be a crazy feat if possible. But then also you need to make top three in the Champions League because that's a really, really tight – sorry, top three in the WSL to qualify for the Champions League, which is going to be a really, really tight affair. So now suddenly that Brighton-Aston Villa game, if you lose those, you might be out of Europe. Like that is how simple it goes now. And last season there was a lot of breathing room and I think there was a lot of the narrative of last season was like Renee's first season, how can they be, this is the miracle, like what can they do?

32:07Throw away the WSL because you've got the Champions League spots and put all your eggs in one basket for the actual Champions League. They don't have the option to do that this year, as I've just said in a long-winded way. But I think that, like I said with what I said at the end of part one, this game I think is a bit of an anomaly in the way that I think Brighton prepared everything for this game. And this was, again, tactical execution was 100%. They were fantastic. They deserve to win this game. It's not like Arsenal were kind of, they didn't write their own downfall. I think Brighton were just really superb.

32:36But I do think there's less takeaways in the way that you're not going to come at other games like this. The depth in the squad won't have to be utilized in the way that it is. Hopefully, have players back. I know that Renee mentioned that Steph Catley is not going to go to the international break. I really, really hope we don't see Leah Williamson playing against Spain at Wembley either because she's had a horrible season with injuries. So I guess what I'm getting at is I don't think you're going to have to have a situation like this again this season because now you've only got two priorities and I think Arsenal have done a really good job at managing those two priorities for the last six months.

33:06It's just the third one threw everything off course. The takeaways from this game though, Tim, are that the squad, yeah, the squad's short. Like you need a centre defensive midfielder or you need some sort of midfielder. Whether it is the profile of Georgia Stanway and that opens up someone like Mariona a little bit more, there needs to be another proven player in that position. I think that there needs to be attention to turn towards the centre-backs if the injuries are going to prevail because what's the depth there? Because clearly this depth isn't working. And I know this season's a bit of an outlier because you get a fit Katie Reid.

33:34It's a completely different scenario. But I don't think that Renee trusts Laikadina. So I expect that to be changed as well. I just think, yeah, this game is exposed depth. But at the same time, I think if we're looking short term for the end of this season, I don't think we're going to be faced with this again until we play Brighton again, obviously. But no, like I said, Tim, I think this team has enough to manage the depth of the rest of the season, but we can't go into next season, basically is what I'm saying, doing the same thing. Like it needs to be addressed in the summer. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

34:02Do you have a question? I do. This one's from Adam Salter. He always really loves to like pile on the dramatics and this is why he's my friend because we're quite similar. One year later and it happened again. After a thrilling European success, Arsenal run out of gas and suffer a slump in performance. With Villa and Brighton away on the horizon, How do we prevent another 5-2 and 4-2 defeat from happening? And how do we fix this properly in the summer? Yeah, this just goes back to the squad, doesn't it? I think at some level, it's kind of unavoidable that you play a massive game like we played on Wednesday night in two legs, by the way, both when Brighton have midweeks off and stuff like that.

34:43You play like that, it's just going to have an impact because either you play exactly the same players and they're all tired or you make a load of changes and you're disjointed um so like i i kind of think it is just unavoidable i know that's not that's kind of not what people want to hear however um how do we deal with it better just better squad like i that's that's i think that's kind of the beginning and the end of it um really and then maybe that promotes more kind of natural rotation during the season but like we said like you know some of the players that came in like Chloe Kelly and Beth Mead starting on the wings like that that doesn't ring any alarm bells um for me um basically um you know lots of Wilbur Moy when Leah Williamson and Steph Catley aren't available again that doesn't have any you know I don't have any problems with that I think we really missed Leah in this um in this block I think the Chelsea game might have been a little bit less chaotic and I think we really could have done, it goes without saying, of course we could have done with her in this game.

35:49I think that's been a real miss actually, not getting her back when we kind of half expected to. But yeah, I mean, to some extent, like obviously we just have to manage it better. That's the kind of, because that's what big teams have to do. They have to manage these things. They have to manage like massive Champions League knockout game and then a bread and butter league or cup game um on the sunday or the saturday so um yeah a couple of decent signings i think it'll be fine basically but kind of kind of on that because where i do think we have an issue is midfield and part of that is you know kaira's situation which is obviously kind of a little bit i said unforeseeable is not the word i i want but you know it's it's a bit unfortunate but at the same time um you know victoria pilova doesn't even get on in this game um which i think unfortunately says says quite a lot so this one from at livy afc awfc do you think not reinforcing the midfield was a mistake in the summer and then in january volte sold see cooney cross away for personal reasons, Pilova not really trusted, Mournem not in great form.

37:08These factors, along with the need to manage Kim's minutes, feels like a lot to juggle across different competitions. And I think it's fair to say this is a question people have asked since the summer and it's not a reaction to losing the game today, I don't think. Yeah, 100%. I think that the midfield is thin. The midfield's thin in the fact it's not numbers, it's personnel that Renee actually believes fit into her system tactically and that's clearly not Victoria Pilova. I think Frieda Mornham's having a really rough season like last season she was really good at the start of the year and then she dropped off but yeah this has been a really rough season I think maybe a lot of that is psychological because of how how well Alessia Russo slotted into that 10 and I think there's there's a there's a little bit of writing on the wall with these players now where it's okay our number nine is getting game time over us in in our preferred positions which is definitely not a good thing.

37:59With Victoria Plover, I feel a bit bad because obviously that double pivot of Mariona and Kim Little, it's not faulted. Since the turn of the year, we've beaten City, we've beaten Chelsea, we've gone through the Champions League. I think that that double pivot and I think that the way Arsenal playing in the midfield hasn't actually faulted since the turn of the year, but now it's very easy to look back and say, oh, we don't have enough numbers because yesterday we didn't have enough numbers. And that's not me rejecting the problem at all. I just think we've done really well with what we've got, And I think if we had another midfielder during this time, the only game they maybe would have came in for Kim or Mariona was yesterday anyway.

38:32So this season, it did feel like a reinforcement. In terms of next season, like we do need to move on from the fact that Kim Little is not going to be amazing forever. I still think she's going to play another five seasons. She's unbelievable. But I think we run the risk of buying another eight or another 10 and relying on Kim Little to be that kind of CDM. And then in three, four years, you have the same problem again where are the reinforcements? And I think that's the direction I'm a bit worried that Arsenal heading down is how do we reinforce the other positions because Pulova is not the right fit and maybe Frida can't play against every opposition.

39:05I think that's something I'm a little bit worried about is reinforcing those. But again, if Kim's fit, Kyra is the backup. And when Kyra is fit, like you can play her and you can rotate her. So I kind of agree with this in two minds because I do think 100 % Arsenal need midfield depth. I'm just worried about where that's going to be placed and where those resources are going to be placed. think someone like Georgia Stanway again like not counting my chickens before they hatch but she is a player that I think would do a lot of work for this Arsenal team and I think something especially not to bring it about the Lionesses or England Kira Walsh thrives in that starting 11 because of the the kind of hustle bustle work that Georgia Stanway does for her it means Kira Walsh can be that bull user and that works a lot at Arsenal with Kim Little and Mariona Caldente as well so kind of personnel like that so in a long-winded way Tim I think yes there is a need for reinforcements in the midfield and not just reinforcements but players that are going to start these games I think it's too much of here's your starting three midfielders let's just chuck on pullover and mourn them when we need them no no let's like have some starting midfielders that are going to raise the quality of this team but at the same time I think this season it would have been a reinforcement I don't think Renee was up for big wholesale changes next season I think that she's going to have to be yeah definitely I mean at the risk of repeating myself they did try to They wanted to buy Georgia Stanway for this season, but Bayern weren't going to entertain that.

40:23They went for Reuteler. And so in a sense, they're kind of, certainly in the case of Stanway, they've decided to wait for what they consider to be a real level raiser. I think for me, Leah Valti would have just been a very useful player to still have. I completely understand why she didn't want that role. and I do think Arsenal did the right thing by someone who had given the club such great service by essentially adhering to her wishes and saying you're probably going to be a squad player and we understand why you don't want that but I think it should have been really handy to have around putting her on on Wednesday night when we were under the cosh a bit having her to start this game in the Man United Subway Cup game.

41:14I think she could have played a lot of very useful minutes. Obviously, she's so experienced and she's been there for so long. She's played with Kim 3 ,500 times. I think she would have been a really useful player to have around. I think it's a real shame on a number of levels that that didn't happen, not least because I don't think Juve has been a great move for her. Indeed, she did, I believe, nearly come back to the WSL in January. And I would have been very disappointed to see her wearing a Manchester United shirt, but that's another conversation perhaps. And yeah, we'll see where she goes next season, because I don't think she'll stay at Juventus by the sounds of it.

41:57But yeah, just a real shame. We just haven't still got that player, really, I think. And sorry, I meant to shout out in that question at the Wild Edge as well, asked something very similar, saying we have 3.5 players available that Rene trusts because he makes the point about Russo being like one of the midfielders and a number nine at the same time. That was my question, wasn't it? So yeah, so your question now. Yeah, okay. Not to put a damper on things, but this is a question from Annie25. At the end of the season, is the Champions Cup enough for a team like Arsenal with this much quality and talent, assuming no Champions League title?

42:34Relax, Annie. You never know. And aren't City and Chelsea seasons better with what they have achieved? There is many similar questions like this. SleepyWRR says, what are your hopes for the rest of the season and what would you consider a success? And then MattyLilyJaniemi says, unless we do the unthinkable and repeat as European champions, how big of a disappointment is this season? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in terms of like Man City and Chelsea, have they had better seasons i think if chelsea were to win the fa cup as well yeah pretty undeniable at that stage but then again if they don't finish in the champions league places i don't think they'd see it that way um so i think that depends more on where chelsea finish and if we finish above them um i i'd say slightly disappointing um but i think there's a few things i i first of all if we qualify for the Champions League, the League Cup's not there next season.

43:34So that's one fewer competition we can win anyway. The FA Cup's definitely a disappointment. I think we were all very up for that. I think at this stage, Champions League, that's fine. For me, if we get to the semi-final, if we have a close tie with Lyon, if we go out after a close tie, I'd still look at that and think, yeah, that's, again, acceptable isn't the word I'm looking for. but it's more like yeah that's you know that could happen to any team um basically and you know we've gone to a third semi-final in four years like i think that's okay um i'm not saying anyone should give us a cake for getting to the semi-final if we don't go through to the final but it's it's kind of all right the league will obviously um is a source of disappointment because we just had a month to six weeks where we just didn't play and it's cost us.

44:29In terms of had Man City had a better season, I mean, if they win the league, yes. But again, they would look at it and say, but we're not in the Champions League. And that's going to be like a big thing for them. You know, so it's all a bit nip and tuck. I think what I'd say is I've just seen some really good things in the team this season. And before Wednesday night, we'd won 11 games in a row and we'd beaten Chelsea twice. We'd beaten Man City. Like, I've seen some really good stuff since the turn of the year and I was pretty worried or reasonably worried around Christmas time. But just before that, we really started to play.

45:10And I do think this game has a bit of a context that's kind of fixable just by, you know, doing some transfer business. So I don't feel at the moment disappointed about the season, but I completely understand like, you know, when you look at it to not compete for the title, to go out to Brighton in the FA Cup, to go out to United in the Subway Cup. Yeah, kind of undeniable, but I will not have the FIFA Champions Cup disrespected. What do you reckon on that? I completely agree, Tim. I think my disappointment heightened at the start of the season. I do think it's all the positive signs that I'm seeing have increased as the season has gone on.

45:56So we're entering the summer. We're not playing like dirty defensive ball where we're just trying to get by. I think in the last couple of months we've seen some really, really high quality football and it's just disappointing because it's moments like this again and you're right, it's fixable. It's the FA Cup. I called it like the third rung priority right now, which is upsetting because we need to make it the top priority and we can do that with depth. So yeah, it's fixable. I think if we win the Champions League, it's bigger success than every team in England. If we don't win the Champions League, I think there's nuances and there's minor conversations to be had about the quality of football that's being played.

46:28And I think there's been a big shift this season. Obviously, the appointment of Jodie Taylor, I think Rene's really getting a little bit more involved with that as well. And it just seems like this team's on an upward trend. But at the same time, I agree. Like fans can be as angry as they want because this squad and this team should be winning silverware. So a little bit disappointing, but still champions of the world. So whatever, I guess. I don't know, I joke, I joke. How about this question then from Aidan at Beltran's Old Mole? The Meadow Park pitch was seemingly an issue again. Do you think that's because Arsenal play a majority of games at the Emirates and other good grounds now, for example, playing at Stamford Bridge instead of Kingsmeadow when we play away at Chelsea?

47:09The team have a harder issue adjusting to the pitch than a few years ago. I mean, so Max Radwin tweeted something like, let me see if I can remember the numbers, under René Slager's one defeat in 22 at the Emirates and five in 15 at Meadow Park. So as much as I said, I thought the pitch looked OK in this game and it was more that tin pot ball that was the issue. However, it's undeniable that the record at Meadow Park is nowhere near what it is at the Emirates now. How do you see this? Do you see this as a bit of a teething issue? Yeah, I think this is an interesting point. It was Max Radwan because I was trying to find it and I couldn't find it on his account.

47:54Really good point made. I think a fine point, again, made by Aidan there, I don't think it's necessarily the quality of the pitch because I agree the ball wasn't bobbling because of divots. When we played Liverpool in the FA Cup last year, it was horrible. It's not like that anymore. It has been an issue several times. Yeah, 100%. And I think maybe if you look at the form, you can go back and say that. Like there's games where the pitch has been horrible. And I think someone else asked a question. I'm really sorry if it was you. I can't find the account. But they asked a question if a worse – oh, wait, maybe it was Aiden.

48:22A better – a technically proficient team really, really benefits from a good pitch, whereas teams that don't aren't as technically proficient benefit from a bad pitch. And I just think that's not the case against Brighton. I think Brighton – like Frank Kirby is one of the best technical players we've ever seen in the WSL. but I really value this question and I think it has to do with obviously fans and noise is a big thing at the Emirates and I think if Arsenal have done anything over the last five years it's proved that they they're a big team in big moments and I think a lot of that comes from the fan base and you shouldn't laugh off these things like the Arsenal fans have a mat they're a 12th man every time we play and I do think they deserve to have that credit the other thing is the pitch dimensions are different like the Emirates is is bigger it's 115 yards by 74 yards Borenwood is 110 by 74 so there is a difference in in pitch size and that makes that makes the world of a difference the way that Renee Slaggers is trying to play the way she's trying to utilize her fullbacks her wingers so I think when you have to make that quick adjustment three four days after playing Chelsea at Stamford Bridge you have to come it's a smaller pitch there's not a lot of runoff as well like there is a lot of psychological but also tangible tactical differences when you play at Barnwood I do think it's completely fair when there's going to be differences in the performances And that's something that I think you can either tease out by how do you perform well at both.

49:39You can tease out by the fact that maybe one day there will be no Boreham Wood. Obviously, there is for the next few seasons because of the new deal. But I think there has been impacts and we've seen that in results, Tim. And whether that's size, whether that's home advantage, whether that's fan noise, obviously Boreham Wood can be amazing with fans as well, but it's not the Emirates. But there has been a difference. And I think you almost always see it differently in the way that Arsenal choose to play. It's less spread out. the wingers are less involved there's less like there's just a lot less movement and that kind of total football we've started to see we didn't see that yesterday against Brighton and maybe that is a smaller pitch thing but maybe I'm reading into it reading into a little bit too much and giving us excuses where we don't deserve them yeah there's there's a couple of points I'd add on to that I think on one hand like you're right about the home advantage thing I think it's worth remembering as well like Arsenal is the only team that has that Arsenal is the only team that is regularly playing in front of 20 30 000 people in their home games like no other i don't think there's another women's team in europe that do that um really so that is an advantage for them because coming to the emirates is not like going anywhere else because of that whereas obviously meadow park you don't get that quite as much albeit you probably get more atmosphere at meadow park just because everyone's close to the pitch i think you're right as well about you know the kind of runoff, like the ball's in play more, you know, and the conditions are, you know, slightly more difficult in terms of like when the pitch is quite muddy and all of that, which it wasn't on this occasion, but it has been.

51:14But I also think it's just that's where we play the cup games and that's generally where we rotate a bit and we get a bit disjointed. You know, you look at the WSL games at the end of the last season where we rotated against Brighton away and Crawley, you know, not the greatest pitch either. But then we did the same at Villa Park last year. So we went and played in nice stadium and good conditions and we rotated there and that didn't work either. So I think like the rotation, losing a bit of fluency side of it does have an impact. But yeah, maybe it is like a little bit like loss of home advantage of an entirely unique level of home advantage.

51:59That was my question, wasn't it? So let's do one more each. Okay, I have a question. This is about the game and maybe something that we can learn going forward to the Brighton game because we have to play them again. This is from Sarah JK Official. In the first half, it was evident that the game plan wasn't working and the same thing became very clear very early in the second half. Why do you think Rene waited so long to make changes instead of doing it in the second half? For me, it felt like we were really missing Russo's hold-up play the most. Obviously, we've kind of spoken about that being exhaustion.

52:33Shane Thomas also asks, when we go to Brighton again, should Rene change one or both the wingers from today's starting 11? It seemed they clogged the middle of the pitch trying to force us wide. We spoke about that. In that game state, you'd probably want your best 1v1 wide players. So I guess the changes you'd make going into the next Brighton game and whether you do think a lot of this is just down to exhaustion. Yeah, so the triple substitution happened on 56 minutes, so I think that's reasonably early. And I think it was just done because they didn't want to put more than half an hour really into those players, particularly because the game could have gone to extra time as well.

53:10And I don't think it was a tactical decision to not do it. I think it was a fitness kind of decision that they definitely didn't want the players to play more than an hour. so I don't think it's that they didn't see that that you know things weren't working and like I said at the top like I'm pretty certain that they would have expected a bit of tail off because that's just what happens when you make six changes it's again it's kind of unavoidable and what you're trying to do as a manager in these cup games this goes for the men's team as well you're trying to get away with it that's what you're trying to do like none of these managers will ever say this but they know when they make six changes it is going to impact the performance they know that but what you do is you just try and get away with it and get through um in the interest of managing your squad we had a similar conversation about the end of the spurs game being like quite chaotic because we made changes um and ultimately we ate the fact that we had a crap last 20 minutes because we got players off because you know we had like a massive game against Chelsea and so basically at points in the season especially towards the end managers do this knowing they're going to sacrifice a bit of performance and they just they you kind of just hope you get away with it basically and we didn't get away with it today but that's exactly what we're going to try and do again next season that's just what all big clubs have to do with these competitions when they rotate so I didn't really have an issue with like how early the changes were or anything.

54:47I just think it was annoying that it happened at 1-0 because I think if we could have got those players on at 0-0, it might have been different. With regards to Shane's question about the wide players, yeah, I mean, I think Caitlin was the only sub that did make a real difference in this game. And I think Shane makes a good point in terms of the way Brighton play as well. Having strong one-on-one players really, really helps. so yeah maybe that means I think Olivia Smith in WSL and Champions League she'll pretty much always start if she's fit enough anyway and yeah maybe Caitlin's the other the other winger you play against Brighton I think the interesting thing about Brighton though and Rene said this before and after the game is that they're very good at coming with different game plans so they're difficult to read because they'll they'll devise a game specific game plan and you don't know they're going to do it because they've never done it before because and again that's just like that's another sign of of good coaching what do you think on that then yeah I agree I think that the point about Brighton is imperative to this entire question because I think if it was any other opposition you'd look at this game and you'd say Brighton have kind of lay all their cards on one table you know that they really did a good job at kind of out tactically performing Arsenal in this fixture but then Arsenal come back with a full strength team and and Brighton have to say okay how do we hit them now but I don't think that's the case because of the way Brighton play it's very game by game.

56:12I think that's why it makes them quite an exciting team to watch because you don't really know what to expect. They just need to learn to score more goals and they'll be a really exciting team in the WSL. So I think that if we're talking in isolation about the return fixture, I just think it's a matter of players getting back fast. No, I don't think it's a matter of like tactical jesting. I think we'll see what happens when we see what happens. And in terms of the question about the subs, I agree. I think 56 minutes is maybe as early as she probably could have made it in terms of if you're wanting to rest anyone.

56:37So those are my two simple answers yeah and why don't we finish on this one then and i've kind of had my say um on this already um but this from a uh awfc 321 221 i'd imagine this has been quite a defining block for laia kadina a left back was preferred ahead of her against chelsea and in my opinion not a single good performance from her in this block is the writing on the wall for her um I mean my answer to that is yes but it probably already was what do you reckon on that one yeah I think it's good though that this is a scenario where it's almost just everyone is aware of that fact I think the writing was on the wall when Katie Reid was a preferred starter at the start of the season but it's it's yeah the writing's on the wall now and and sometimes in football that's okay these things happen nothing needs to be a a big song about it but yes I would say definitely yeah I like you know like I say whatever happens with Lyat um if and when Arsenal have three centre-backs injured it's gonna have an impact uh I'm afraid that's that is just the way it goes no nobody has a world-class fifth choice centre-back um but yeah I suspect that things will take their course in the summer.

57:58I think she's got one more year left on her contract, but I think Arsenal would be very open to offers. Let's put it that way. Will that do, Jamie, do we think? Yeah, let's just chuck that in the bin and enjoy the international break. Well, not if you're an Arsenal men's fan because struggle town everywhere right now. Well, yeah, indeed. It's really relentless. It's horrible. So, yeah, yeah. So by the time people listen to this, I'll probably be either at the airport or in the air en route to Lisbon, you know, to a familiar stadium. I think the Steiner Arena, as it's now known. We will certainly have at least one podcast for you during the international break.

58:43We have a very special guest lined up for something, and we're hopeful of doing that before the resumption. and it's actually I think we play Aston Villa away on the 22nd of April I think that's our next game but yeah we're hopeful of recording something a little bit special for you but we'll probably knock out a mailbag in any case during the break at some point maybe next week end of next week something like that so do join us for that and until then thanks so much for joining us as ever and if you've listened to this podcast then you know you're probably um a pretty regular listener of the podcast because i think a lot of people will give this one a miss understandably so so thanks so much for being with us and we will speak to you again very very soon

1:00:00We'll see you next time. World Cup coverage that gets into the winners and losers on and off the pitch. Read, watch and listen as our journalists connect the dots between the games, the cultures and this political moment. We'll have daily newsletters throughout the tournament, a global perspective and a squad of Americans, including me, on the ground with the U.S. national team. Plus, if you want to test your soccer knowledge, try On The Ball. It's a game in the Guardian app and it's really, really fun. And if you're into stuff like this... Well, I think the problem is if you give footballers an inch, they will take a mile.

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