Arsenal Women Arsecast Episode 164: Advantage Arsenal against Lyon

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0:36Hello and welcome to the Arsenal Women Askcast and AskBlog.com with me your host Tim Stillman. Hope you enjoyed last week's episode, hope you listened to last week's episode with very special guest Lota Wubhamoy talking ahead of the UEFA Champions League semi-final with Leon and tried to focus the interview a little bit on her kind of preparation for games and the situation she's been in with club and country over the last couple of years. And we might end up talking about it on this pod as well because I thought she had a fantastic game on Sunday. And that's the game we're going to talk about.

1:12And here to chat about that with me as ever is our co-host Jamie Spanger. Jamie, how are you doing?

1:18Jamie: Hey, Tim. It's been a while. I've missed you. I've missed talking Aston with you. I think that podcast with Lotta prepped her for a fantastic performance. against Leon personally because, God, she was great. And obviously we'll get into the nitty-gritty. But, Tim, it's nice to have a win. Obviously it's only halfway or halftime, whatever we say on our social media posts these days. But, yeah, no, I think a lot of positives to bring from that performance, a heavy block coming up. So I'll be seeing plenty of your face, Tim, which I'm very excited about. Yeah, and actually, strangely, I'm not going to be at the Leicester game on Wednesday because I'm in Madrid for the men's semifinal and then I'm flying straight from Madrid to Leon on Friday.

1:57So a couple of Champions League semifinals in a couple of days. But for the second season in a row, the only game I'm missing is Leicester at home because I'm in Madrid. That's happened two years in a row. Pretty spooky. But before we get into all of that, we should discuss at the top. And before we get into the Arsenal-Leon game, because there's a lot to get into there, a story that came out on The Athletic from Megan Fringer and Charlotte Harper this afternoon about Manchester City's interest in Beth Mead and Katie McCabe. I can talk a little bit about this in a second. I don't really know or I didn't know very much about the Katie one.

2:35I did a bit about the Beth one, so I can maybe add some context there in a minute or two. But Jamie, what's your reaction to this potential double move?

2:47Jamie: Yeah, this is big news. Megan Faringa is absolutely dominating the game right now and she's providing our fans with a lot. Press officers apparently aren't a big fan of them, which is – Yeah. I don't know if everyone's seen the whole Manchester United thing, but utterly ridiculous. Yeah, two brilliant journalists from the Athletic strike again with this one. But, yeah, this is an interesting one, Tim, and I think there's – I have some mixed opinions about the entire saga. Obviously, we're expecting this summer, Tim. There's going to be a lot of turnover. Arsenal want to refresh the age of the squad, and I can understand that.

3:19Jamie: I think the Beth Mead situation makes sense. I think we've been needing a refresh on the wing. I think that every listener on Askast knows how I feel about Beth Mead. So I still think she plays a really big role in this squad. And I think that we really, really miss her when she's not in the squad. And sometimes we feel that absence. And I think that, yeah, she's a player that you're going to lose a lot when she departs. However, it's again, it's one of those moments when you want an age refresh, you need turnover. You're just going to have to say goodbye to players like this. So if this is the case, I can understand.

3:52Jamie: I'm very surprised by the destination, can I be honest? They've got players like Fugino, Lauren Hebb, Mary Fowler. Obviously, their attack is stacked. Grace Clinton can play on a wing. She's been not getting any minutes since coming back from injury at all. So yeah, I think it's an interesting move from a Manchester City perspective for that interest. I'm a little bit surprised by it. With Katie McCabe, Tim, I'm still really struggling with this one because of how important she still remains for the squad. And I think that Arsenal taking a really big gamble if she does depart this summer where you've got a player that she's had to step in a centre-back against Chelsea in a Champions League quarterfinal.

4:26Jamie: She's then done it against in a semi-final against Lyon. So this player is so important to this Arsenal squad and her versatility and the fact that you know what you're going to get from Katie McCabe. She's going to go out there and she can play any position, but she will put everything into it. She's not going to strop on the pitch. She's not going to take the advice from the manager when she gives it to her on pitch. So yeah, I think it's a gamble, Tim, is what I'm thinking with the Katie McCabe one, as opposed to the Beth Mead one, which I understand a little bit more. This one, I think Arsenal are really going to have to make sure that it's a big summer if they're going to replace a player that plays such a pivotal role for the squad.

5:03Yeah, definitely. So the Katie McCabe one, I knew nothing about. So hands up on that. I can't really add any great context there the Beth Mead one I I had heard uh kind of over the weekend um you know still like sorting it out and all of that and I think first and foremost if this does happen and both these players do go there I mean this is the WSL is is where the money is and there's four probably five um kind of teams that can pay very very good salaries very competitive salaries so they're not new intra-WSL moves you look at a player like Lauren James she has played for Arsenal, Chelsea and Manchester United like it's not that new Chloe Kelly as well we've benefited from that Alessia Russo and I think when it comes to players like Beth Mead and Katie McCabe who've given a decade and more of outstanding service won everything at Arsenal given everything in every single game for Arsenal I mean, it would hurt to see them in another shirt.

6:13Those of you that read the site with an eye for detail, I wrote a piece about Steena Blackstenius staying last week and I had a little section in there about, you know, big players are going to be wearing other WSL shirts. Like I say, I didn't have the knowledge of Katie, although I suspected she'd stay in the WSL. I did have a little bit on Beth Mead there. So that was a little kind of warning shot. I think with Beth as well, it's really easy to understand, isn't it? Like Man City, that's not a step down. That's a team that's probably going to win the title, is going to be playing in the Champions League.

6:49You know, very, very kind of competitive team. Obviously, Vib's there as well. But I think from Arsenal's perspective, you know, they've got Beth Mead and Caitlin Ford out of contract this summer. And I think they don't want to lose both. So I don't think it's quite as clear cut, you know, about just letting kind of Beth Mead go. You know, I think they would have been open-minded about her staying because I don't think that they want to replace two wingers in one summer. But I think from what I understand, the quality and the length of the offer from Manchester City is likely to be pretty good.

7:30And I think it's very, very understandable that that's going to be very, very attractive. So, yeah, I think both those moves are going to happen, but we'll see. But anyway, there'll be more time to talk about that. And obviously, Beth Mead doesn't play in this game for personal reasons now. So we get the starting line-up. We already knew that Beth Mead wasn't going to play. We knew Steph Catley wasn't going to be fit. There was also no Chloe Kelly in the squad with a slight muscle injury. I'm told that they do hold out quite good hope for being available for the second leg. So you've got Caitlin Ford and Olivia Smith on the wings, Russo behind Steiner.

8:10Any surprises in there for you, Jamie, in the starting lineup?

8:14Jamie: Nope, no surprises for me. This is exactly the team that I expected to be put out with who is available. Yeah, and I think even with all four wingers fit, these are the two wingers that would have started anyway, because we know what Caitlin brings out of possession as well. Ditto, I expect her to start the second leg for much the same reasons. And I think Olivia Smith's just so dangerous. You kind of have to play her. And actually, I think that gave us a really nice balance. And Russo behind Steiner, we saw that in both legs of the quarterfinal. I fully expected to see it in this game. And Steiner signing a new contract.

8:54Great news. We are in that period of the season. contracts are being signed and I think there'll be more on that as well in coming weeks and all of that and things are going to start to get clarified but you know Arsenal-Leon historically Leon have been better both teams seem to prefer playing this fixture away from home I must admit I was glad not to see Melchie de Mourne in the squad for them she scored three goals against Arsenal over the last year. Selma Basher as well. But, you know, I think these are two teams that know each other quite well and respect one another. And I think, you know, maybe you saw that a little bit in Lyon's selection as well.

9:38And I do wonder if they'll change that up in the second leg when they've got to chase it a bit. But, you know, it was quite, I don't want to say cagey first 15 minutes, but it felt like both teams were kind of feeling each other out and that these are two opponents that know each other well and respect one another in the opening stages.

9:58Jamie: 100%. It did feel like this was almost like a WSL tie of teams that face each other often. And that's the way it kind of feels with Leon. Obviously, we did play them in the Champions League earlier in the season. A really, really close loss there. So like you, I was very, very excited that Melchie Di Mone wasn't in the team. I do think in the first 15 minutes though, Leon really do benefit from Ada Hegerberg being up front because I think it's their only means of controlling the ball because I do think it comes out and it's quite frantic. I think that Arsenal actually look a lot better in the opening 10 minutes, to be honest.

10:29Jamie: And I think I've seen some adverse opinions to that. But I do think Hegerberg gives Leon what they need to in terms to settle and kind of get back into the tempo. And that's why they end up really swinging back in the first half and just kind of controlling the ball. and Arsenal make some really frantic passes and they're struggling to, yeah, like I said, dominate the tempo. So although I expect that Jonathan Graudez would have expected and wanted De Mornay to be starting, I think that Hegerberg actually helps them a lot, especially in the opening 45 minutes. But I think, yeah, this is a tough opening 15 minutes, Tim, because like I said, I thought Arsenal were pretty good and then Lyon kind of start to click into gear and they realise who they are and they realise they need to keep the ball and they know what Arsenal are trying to do almost immediately with that long ball.

11:11Jamie: So, yeah, a cagey opening 15 minutes, but I want to say that I think the French side were the ones that just got back into their balance a little bit quicker. Yeah, you start to see them get on the ball after kind of 10 to 15 minutes and Arsenal, you know, a team like Lyon doesn't give it back to you. And I felt like maybe I could see why Arsenal were attracted to the option over the top because Ingrid Engen, Wendy Renard, great, great defenders. I mean, Ingrid Engen's not slow, but, you know, probably not a huge amount of recovery pace in that centre-back pairing. And they play a high line, so you can see why Arsenal wanted to go over the top.

11:50I just felt like they were doing it a bit too quickly and just giving the ball up pretty much every single time. And they perhaps needed to just build a little bit more. But, you know, there's Caitlin Ford drags one wide after Emily Fox cut back. But Leon take the lead. and when they score against Arsenal, it does tend to be from a high turnover because they're so electric. And something we did see was Eula Brand was really coming inside off that left-hand side, playing almost like a number 10. So Caitlin Ford under a lot of pressure. Leon pressed so well. Spava intercepts. Lovely one-touch pass from Lily Johans as well, who just looks like such a great footballer, it has to be said.

12:36And then I think it looks like a weird goal because when Eulabran dips inside Kim Little, you just don't expect it to basically be an open shot. But when you look at it from behind, Svavre's making an overlapping run. Leah Williamson attends to that overlapping run, which takes her out of the center. And Kim Little can't take Brand down there. But it still felt like a soft goal to me overall.

13:02Jamie: Certainly. Look, I think that, again, to praise Lyon, what they did with Yule LeBrand was really, really intelligent because I think that she's a great player. And I think I've said on this podcast before, I would sign her in a heartbeat over most players in the world. But I think that Emily Fox is the defender for the touchline. And I think that Lyon have really, really realized that in this opening 30 minutes. And they tell her to come in. And I think there's a lot of vulnerability for Arsenal in that central area when she's overloading the midfield. She's basically playing as a 10 the entire game.

13:30Jamie: I do think that this is a badly defended goal. and I think that it's a naive, like the way that we've defended this is quite naive and I think Leah Williamson following that run is unnecessary but at the same time it means that Emily Fox isn't there to cover the winger and I do think it's just a bit of a lapse of intelligence from the defenders on where they need to be and it's more like a man-marking defence than any sort of zonal defence. So I do think they lose a lot with this goal and I don't think it's a well-defended goal. At the same time, it's a great finish. Sheila Brand's a really, really demanding player.

14:01Jamie: Like she can, she will enter a box and she'll show you who she is. I think I've seen a lot of people say it's a mistake from Kim Little. Obviously she doesn't defend the ball, but she's caught wrong footage. She doesn't expect to be on that one-on-one. And then, like you said, she can't make a foul. She can't even like really go for the ball in that area because that's an immediate penalty. So yeah, I think a bit of a lapse of concentration from Arsenal. But again, like it's a great player. And I thought in the first 10 minutes, Emily Fox dealt with Yulad Brad really well. And then it's just, she needs a moment.

14:27Jamie: She doesn't need, she doesn't need long this player on the ball to split the game wide open. And so, yeah, a good finish, but I don't think it was, it was very far from impressive from an Arsenal perspective. Yeah, yeah. I think you could say that maybe about all three goals in this game, to be fair. It didn't look like a Champions League semi-final. This is probably the best defended goal of the three. But yeah, from there, like, Lyon really get their foot on the ball. And although they didn't create a great deal, I'm not sure they had another shot, actually, in the first half after that. but they had a lot of maybe sterile possession, but Arsenal kind of start to come back into it.

15:04At the end of the half, you get Katie McCabe across to the back post, which Caitlin Ford heads just wide. But really after that, again, there's a little bit of shadow boxing really from both teams, not a lot of goal mouth action. But I think Leon, you know, basically there was one clear cut chance in the half it came to Leon. Leon had the better of the ball. I think Jonathan Giraldes said afterwards they were slightly better in the first half but Arsenal were much better in the second and I think that was a fair assessment what were your kind of your

15:38Jamie: thoughts at halftime yeah my thoughts at halftime were there's plenty of work to be done here I think that when you're looking at a two-leg tie it's always a bit different when it's halftime because it does kind of feel like you're a quarter of the way through but at the same time a first leg result can define a second leg result like that's just that is that is the case so at halftime I thought there needs to be some correcting here because the biggest issue I had with the opening 45 minutes team was just giving away possessions so quick like and you said that with the long ball it felt like the long ball was forced straight away get the ball whether it was Leah Williamson Mariana Caldente it was just a long ball Katie McCabe even just put it long let's hope for the best but Leon like what they made and look it wasn't a good performance from their goalkeeper but what they lacked in the opening half in pace in their center backs they gained from how well Endler was reading the ball because she wasn't allowing that long ball to go through.

16:27Jamie: If the defense weren't getting it, Stena Blackstania sure wasn't because the goalkeeper was there to sweep. So it did feel like Arsenal were just giving up possession, giving up possession, even small passes, like really wasteful in the opening 45 minutes. And I think with players of this quality, it's very easy to correct those things because you go in at halftime and you say, look, we don't need to be doing this. Because Lyon's press is very managed, but it's not aggressive. Like they're not leading it. Like Diani and Domornay aren't, like Domornay's not there. Diani's not pressing as much as she usually is.

16:54Jamie: They've got a lot more time than they think they do. So I think at halftime, it's a bit of a mixed feeling of, yeah, they're not playing great, but at the same time, you can tell these kind of players, you need to take more time on the ball. Yes, we can still play the long ball if you really want to, whatever the message was in terms of tactics. But my biggest issue was it was just wasteful, Tim. And I think, yeah, they did really well to just breathe and correct that a bit more in the second half. Yeah, one of the things Renee referred to post-match, she talked about kind of tweaking the press a little bit.

17:22And she was saying that she felt they started to do that at the end of the first half. She was talking about the fact that Aaron Dantino was suspended for this game, so he couldn't be in the dugout. So Mel Clark-Reed, some of you might know her as Mel Phillips, who heads up the analysis team, she went down on the bench to kind of do Aaron Dantino's role. His role is very much coaching the out-of-possession side, so the press and the defending. so Mel had kind of taken that over but one of the things I think Rene mentioned was that they were using like and I think they do this all the time but they have like a tactical cam which is like you know quite high up so they could see the spaces and you know they were talking about kind of using some of that kind of footage at half time to correct some things and and Arsenal really came out the blocks in the second half and in fact it reminded me a little bit of last year's semi-final that's kind of how it went Leon I think probably more dominant in the first half last year where they really could have been to a 3-0 up in the first 20 minutes but then Arsenal really come back and start to pin them back I do just wonder sometimes when you play a team like Leon and maybe this goes for Barca as well where perhaps they're not used to games being intense all the way through.

18:43You know, Leon played on Wednesday night before this. They heavily rotated and I think they won 4-0 and they might have been 4-0 up at half-time, even with a rotated team. And that's not something WSL teams can do as much. I have to say, on Wednesday night, if there's one game where Arsenal should be able to do it, it should be Leicester at home, to be fair. But it felt to me like Arsenal picked up and then straight away you've kind of got Emily Fox, you know, has a big driving run right through the centre, feeds Olivia Smith. She shoots into the side netting. I mean, before we go to the other chances, the penalty, the goals, I thought Emily Fox was just outstanding in this game again.

19:33Jamie: Yes, thank you. Thank you. Because I've seen some – I was having a conversation with one of my family members. I'm not going to dox them and say that their opinion was really bad. But they were saying Emily Fox was having a hard time against Yule LeBrand. I didn't think so. I don't think we saw her in the second half. I think that, like I said earlier, you give that player a moment and she'll score a goal because otherwise I thought Fox was really, really decent on her. And I just think this is a player as well that defensively we can rely on now. So we want to see her up the pitch. Like Arsenal fans want to see her up the pitch.

20:03Jamie: We want to see her using the ball. I do love the memes that fans come up with in terms of if only she could cross or like she has like a really good game and it's too bad she can't cross because we know that that's that's not inherently true. But this is another player I think that like we have consistency, but then we have players that we expect to be consistent and we don't praise for being consistent. And Emily Vox is one of those players and she's developing a partnership with Olivia Smith that I think is something that we should be very excited about present and also future because these two players are getting to know each other.

20:34Jamie: And I think we know what Fox can do with Beth Mead. And I think that they are probably our strongest channel partnership in the team. Smith is probably taking that role now in the way that she's just learning how to come back and defend. And that's helping Emily Fox. She's dropping back. She's a player that I think is a rarity because she has the work rate. She has the intelligence, but she's also got the flair and she's the box office. And I think the women's game lacks kind of players like that. But I think that Emily Fox allows her to be that kind of player. So a really strong 45 minutes. I think that she knows when to pick her moments to come down the channel.

21:05Jamie: There's a moment where she inverts and does a little one-two as well. And I just think, yeah, this is a player that's always consistent that we kind of forget to praise, but another strong performance from a fullback in an Arsenal team. And then I thought that the rest of them were great as well, but we'll come on to that. Yeah, I think the Fox-Smith partnership down the right is starting to look really, really good as well. So, yeah, I was going to say Sophia Smith there, Olivia Smith, hits the side netting. Sophia Smith isn't even called Sophia Smith anymore. But then Arsenal think they have a penalty.

21:39Ingrid Engen, actually, of all people, gives the ball away and then Kim Little drives into the penalty area. And I think we just saw more of that in the second half as well. I just referenced that Olivia Smith chance. Emily Fox drives through the middle. Kim Little gets that ball and she drives into the penalty area. and it looked initially like Wendy Renard had tripped her in the area, rep points to the spot. It becomes apparent on the replay that Renard gets the ball first, sent to the screen and the penalty call is overturned. Any issue with that?

22:15Jamie: No, not at all. No pen. Great defending, to be honest. I think there's a couple of moments in this game where Renard is able to do that, especially there's a few big moments on Caitlin Ford and it just kind of shows her experience. she's not gonna she's not gonna give away a foul she's not she's gonna know when to get the ball and again what she makes up for in um lack of pace as she kind of gets to the latter stages of her career she's just so good at defending and body checking and knowing where to to show the player so yeah an experienced player an experienced foul and I think him little knew because there wasn't a lot of appeals to be honest yeah yeah and and I can see why the ref thought it was a penalty at the time as well yeah it kind of looks like it from the side and behind but when you get the other kind of angle.

22:56But, you know, Leon still have a decent chance. Diani kind of keeps the ball in that Lottow-Wubhamoy is trying to kind of shepherd out of play, cuts back and Schrader hits it over. But Arsenal do get an equaliser, slightly calamitous one. But, you know, you talked about Wendy Renard there. We've talked a lot over the last season and a half about Arsenal using low set-piece deliveries, particularly when they play teams who have a lot of height and Leon have Wendy Renard, who is, I don't think there's any doubt, certainly the best aerial player, if that makes sense, in women's football, and maybe ever in that particular respect.

23:42And Arsenal don't carry a lot of aerial threats, so we see this a lot, these kind of low crosses. we saw this goal Benfica in the group phase Benfica away Russo puts it in in fact we even saw it I think at home to West Ham Chloe Kelly's first goal she kind of whips in a low cross and Steiner runs across it and doesn't get a touch and and it goes all the way in and so we have seen these kind of low deliveries before and we see it again here and Steiner runs across Tiani Endler however this is still a pretty calamitous goal because that ball's I understand that like there's players moving in front of Endler but the ball just doesn't travel very quickly and Ingrid Engen in trying to scramble it off the line ends up putting it in and I you know I'll take it and there was method here because Arsenal planned to use low set piece deliveries and I think Arsenal were worthy of the equaliser at this point but I think there was a fair amount of

24:45Jamie: fortune in the way it came about this is one that I don't think Leon will want to replay ever again this is a goal that kind of goes in one every a hundred times so yeah this is just terrible defending Tim to be honest like oh and the way it goes past Enler I can kind of see it and cringe but I think you're right like the method is there I will say in the opening 45 minutes I was tearing my hair out because there was like the low cross off the corners that was just going to the front defender every single time. It happened like three or four times. The corners were rubbish. And that was making me very frustrated because they were still low.

25:17Jamie: They weren't high, but they were mid-high. I don't know if that's helping an attacker or it's just really easy to defend. And they were going to the front post. It kind of gave me flashbacks of that like last kick of the game where Saka put the corner into the Bayern Munich defender a couple of seasons ago. I'm really not a big fan of mid-height front post corners, Tim. But I do think like there is method to this set piece for sure. And the way that Arsenal, it's a higher line than usual as well. I think it's a really well-executed set piece from an attacking point of view. The ball's not that great, to be honest.

25:47Jamie: It's a little bit weak, but it goes into the back of the net. Like you mentioned, Wendy Renard, the game, it was 2022 against Leon at the Emirates. And we had like 500 corners in the last 20 minutes. And it was just like header away, header away. And we wouldn't do anything else. Like we would not even change anything. So at least we can kind of see now, guys, there has been an evolution with our set pieces. and the way that we're trying to kind of attack teams. And I'm not actually joking when I say that. There is a different outlook now when we're looking at teams that you can't just do what you want.

26:18Jamie: You have to tailor your set pieces for your opposition. And that is something that I think we've underpraised this season because we were really criticising that two seasons ago under Jonas Eideval. And it wasn't just set pieces. It was crosses. It was when you're going forward on the channel, stop putting the ball in the box. It's not doing anything. It's coming straight out. So I think, yes, it's a howler, but you can look at this. You can look at the Benfica one and realize that there has been an evolution. There's been a growth here. Like we are doing a lot better at kind of balancing our game.

26:47Jamie: And you don't want to just play for the opposition, but set pieces you do as well. It's not just your strengths. It's also the weaknesses of the opposition. So that's good to see. It was a bad goal, but it's good to see that Arsenal are definitely testing the weaknesses of Lyon because there's plenty. They don't just have Renard. They have Hegerberg. They have Engen's really tall as well. They've got a tall team. Diani's really tall. So put the ball on the ground. I like it. yeah and uh chris bradley was uh appointed set piece coach in the summer of 2024 and i think we've seen a real uptick and and like you say a bit of an ingenuity um and you know even just looking at things like we don't have a whole lot of players who can head the ball so why don't we change the way we deliver um and all of that also i think tiani and lou and i think of the games we've played against leon in recent seasons beth mead free kick in leon in the 5-1 low Endler didn't get down to it.

27:38When I think of the corner we score from in the semi-final second leg, which actually went down as an own goal, which Frieda kind of bundled in. Again, that was quite low down. In fact, Leon have given us some really silly goals. Like Vanessa Giles fell over, didn't she, last year? Again, maybe it's just they're not that used to being under pressure. I mean, maybe that's a bit of a stretch because they are Leon and they go to the latter stage of the Champions League every single year. But I do wonder if there's something in that. But I did ask Renee about the kind of low set pieces afterwards.

28:14And she said, Leon are extreme with their physical power and their height. So you always have to look at what do we have? What do the opposition have? And what are the opportunities for us? We're always looking at that. But they're fantastic at set pieces if you look at the strength they have. And we're always looking at details we can exploit. So take that as a yes. Well, you're putting them all along the floor because they're really tall. basically. So it's 1-1, Arsenal very much on top. However, and the margins of these games are always very fine. Leon again, it's kind of weird how they had two really good chances in this half when they had much less of the ball than they did in the first half.

28:54But Kim Little makes a slide tackle, it goes backwards, it goes to Diani who goes through. When Diani goes through, you're not catching her really it's you've either got to take her down and take the red card I think Lota had a think about that on stage I think she was thinking do I no maybe I don't hits the underside of the bar and I mean as much as I don't think Lyon would necessarily have deserved a goal there that would have been so similar to last season when Arsenal equalize and then De Mournay I think it was De Mournay wasn't it the second yeah just like breaks forward very similar position and just kind of um powers through so like kind of very very small margins there um something I do want to discuss though on 65 minutes Leah Williamson comes off that was a pre-planned substitution she'd played 45 minutes for England the week before and once again Arsenal go for Katie McCabe at centre-back and Taylor Hines at left-back.

29:55We spoke about how I think that that's about recovery pace, which Laia Kadina is not blessed with. And we saw it against Chelsea when they had Alyssa Thompson. Similar deal, I think, when you've got Diani. You know, you go more for the recovery pace. But I think, again, it's very worth saying Leon got absolutely no change out of Katie McCabe centre-back.

30:23Jamie: no no oh Tim this is what makes me nervous and I'm not like I need to probably let go of the whole Katie McCabe thing because it's maybe an emotional attachment but it's actually it's a really big tactical attachment because in this game right obviously Steph Catley's not fit so your partnership is Williamson and Wobbe-Moy I think it would have been anyway like that's the partnership I would have gone for against Leon because like you said recovery pace um in this instance you can't bring on Steph Catley because she's not fit do you bring on her do you bring on Steph Catley anyway in this scenario or are you saying no we need to lock down recovery pace and therefore do we trust our left back to play centre back against the best teams in the world more than we do our centre backs and that again worries me because if you're going to lose Katie McCabe we don't know what the centre back situation is like how do you replace that where is the aid for that next season because it is a genuine like fear and anxiety of mine team is I think that there is a reliable player that can do that and can lock down those players that if we have an injury at center back which we always do literally always do every season we can't count on fitness all the time because that's a luck that I think we outrode last season and we we got everything we needed out of that last season so I am worried Tim because what's the center back plan without Katie McCabe and then do we have the players that can have that recovery pace so yeah I think that's something to be worried about but in this game I'll remain positive because fantastic like she's fantastic again she did it against Chelsea as well just absolutely gave them gave them nothing in terms of going going back and I think that this is something that Renee also gets really right in the last 35 minutes of this game is Arsenal that it's not a low block because in the last 10 minutes it maybe comes becomes a little bit of a low block but it's a far more cautious defensive style and like the fullbacks are going up the pitch way less than they were you're relying on the wingers to come back a little bit more because the midfield are playing higher than they were so I do think this is just really good coaching from Renee because everyone was kind of it was a Kim Little Mariona deep pivot in the first half Emily Fox and Katie McKay really pushing up it transforms in this at this part of the game where the fullbacks stay back and the midfielders are given a little bit more agency and I think that's really really well suited because I don't think that Schrader or Heaps particularly had a great game and an influential game so good coaching but great defending I also just want to shout out Taylor Hines because I thought she was fantastic and And I think that a big reason Katie McKay was given a breath is because Taylor Hines did a great job at dealing with Diani.

32:43Jamie: And this is a player I think that's just, yeah, a bit of a steal for Arsenal. That, yeah, someone that I'll admittedly say I rated at Liverpool, but I rated as like you're going to be the Liverpool like vice captain. You're going to be a really good WSL legend, but you're never going to be like a big star. And you're just going to be a great player that we all respect. I didn't expect her to be shutting down Diani in a Champions League semifinal. I thought she was great and I thought the way that she progresses the ball up the pitch is something that Arsenal need when they're playing more of a defensive game because her passing is just fantastic.

33:11Jamie: So, yeah, our left side really, really good, Sean, in the last 35 minutes. Yeah, definitely. I wrote the newsletter today as well about the amount of time this Arsenal team's been together. So, Olivia Smith was the only outfield player with fewer than, no, sorry, with fewer than 50 Arsenal appearances. Fox and Mariana, the only other two with fewer than 100, and they've both basically played every game for the last two years, and they're going to get there very soon. And I think, you know, Taylor Hines coming in 26, 27 years old, Reutel is 27, Stanway is 27, Barcher is 27. Like, you can see where Arsenal are going with the kind of transfer policy, and it's, you know, as much as it's going to be renewal, I don't think anyone should be kidded that we're going to have a load of 21-year-olds in the team.

34:09It's because games like, you know, stuff like the Champions League, like you can't do that. And then in the WSL, two bad results and the title's gone. So, you know, I don't think we're going to become a really, really young team, but I think a lot in that age range of about 27 years old. Before we get on to the winner, I really want to discuss the performance of Caitlin Ford because I've seen a lot of divergence on this. I mean, she has a couple of chances in the second half before that second goal. So both Taylor Hines and Mariana play first-time low balls into that left channel. So they stop looping them up and over the top, and they start going along the floor into that left channel.

34:54First time Ford gets one saved by Endler at the near post. The second one goes to Steena Black-Stenius. She tries a pass to Olivia Smith, but it's cut out. Comes to Ford, picks it up, and she has another shot which Endler saves. I have an opinion on Caitlin Ford's overall performance in this game. What did you make of her?

35:16Jamie: I think that she is an outcome-based player. That's the way fans perceive her. and if some of her shots go in, because she has a couple in the second half as well, we're praising this as a really good Caitlin Ford performance. And I've seen complete opposite opinions. I think that the issue I have with Caitlin Ford in this game is her final action, like it lacks a few times, whether it's a final pass or a shot. Sometimes she had, it was late in the second half, I think, and she has a really, really weak shot that just kind of dribbles to the keeper, just things like that. And that's been an issue in Caitlin Ford's career.

35:47Jamie: That's just the player she is. That's her weakness is her final action. She's really good elsewhere. And I do think like maybe I'm biased and I can totally admit that I'm a biased commentator when it comes to some of these players, especially the Australians. But I do think like she offers a lot in the way that she's driving the ball and the way that she forces corners, forces turnovers. This isn't a bad Caitlin Ford performance. And I do think we have a tendency as football fans, I do it as well, 100 % of scapegoating a player when things aren't going right. And she becomes the scapegoat in this game.

36:14Jamie: And I think I have a lot more issues with not players, but just things in this game. I think turnovers, long balls from centre-backs, just going absolutely into Rosie, like not retaining possession. My issue wasn't with the wingers, especially not with Olivia Smith. So, yeah, like I said, Tim, I think this is an outcome-based performance from Caitlin Ford because I think if one of those balls goes in the back of the net, we're saying, yeah, a really strong showing. Yeah, I thought she was great. And I think it comes down to, and I completely understand this, obviously there's a context where people are frustrated with her end product which i can completely understand i'm with i think in like every other aspect and like the repeat actions the repeat going at full backs the repeat creating stuff i kind of think if any of our other three wingers put in this performance it would be look at the threat they created look at the chances they had but obviously there's like and you can't just erase this there's a context where yeah but caitlin doesn't have the same level of event product as those those players what i think was on the day the balance of the wide players was perfect which is why i think they'd have started first of all i think they both deserve huge credit because they knew from the start they were going to have to go the whole game um you know because beth and and chloe weren't there um i mean we bring on smilla holmberg at the end in the kind of in the lockdown era kind of last few minutes um but i thought the balance of having caitlin who just gets the ball and goes and gets the ball and goes and gets the ball and goes and i think like her physicality her relentlessness i think that has a i know i know people will roll their eyes at this and i understand that i think it has a value um i think it has a real value that probably doesn't show up in the data and I'm not hand-waving the end product thing.

38:08It should be a bit better, but I do think there's a real value in having the player on one side who also out of possession is exceptional and will just run all day and then having the player on the other side and Olivia Smith, I think, is really good out of possession as well and René referenced that after the game, but maybe slightly less involved but will probably score. And actually, I think, That's a really, really nice balance, actually, between two of your wide players to have, like, you know, I'm going to be involved in 95 % of the game. I might not score a goal, but I'm going to do, like, everything else and I'm going to do it in every second of every phase of the game and then have the player on the other side who's a bit like, I won't be quite as involved, but I might win you the game.

38:57And ultimately, that's what happens. Leon, again, make a mistake passing out from the back. I think it's Lindsay Heaps who mishits a pass back to Ingrid Engen. And the way Olivia – I urge people, like, there's one replay, there's one angle where Olivia sets off before Lindsay Heaps is even connected with the ball. She just goes. And obviously it's not a great pass. But what makes it is she gambles that – and not a lot of people would gamble on a crap Lindsay Heaps pass. but she did and like obviously she's so quick she creates that panic with Endler and Engen um you know really good finish actually because she's off balance and she really gets her foot around it and uh you know great goal music um again and yeah Olivia Smith just a match winner basically

39:53Jamie: yeah and this is the goal that I think we wanted this is the these are the kind of goals that I don't think we were expecting from Olivia Smith when she came I don't know about you Tim but I I was expecting her to be that like flashy winger. She loved to drive the box for Liverpool. She wants to do it herself. She's not going to cross in the ball. Like she's doing it herself. But the way that she has become a player at Arsenal is she's just a player that's rewarded for her hard work. And I think that's so good. And I referenced this earlier, but so rarely at, I think, an early stage in a winger's career, especially a winger like her, where she is that kind of flashy X factor player.

40:27Jamie: Do you see a player that has got the work rate that she does, but also the intelligence And like you said, like you see that in the way that she comes off the mark. She's ready to make that press and she's ready to make that press in the 83rd minute, like after running for 85 minutes. Like she's a player that's just absolute workhorse. And like you said, I think Caitlin Ford is the repetitive actions. I think Olivia Smith's, the way that she runs that channel with Emily Fox is not to be underestimated. And I think it's something that we know has been demanded of the wingers. We saw it a lot with Chloe Kelly when she came.

40:57Jamie: You're going to have to play a different role. Now, it's not Manchester City anymore. You're not staying in the attacking half. you have to defend as well you have to come back and help the fullbacks and that's something that Renee really demands of the players and Olivia Smith has caught on to that so quickly like it's not like it's just happened it's been happening for months now so this is a goal that's just rewarded for hard work she knows that that ball is is going to be played across maybe she doesn't know that it's it's going to be a bad pass but she's ready to make that press and she's committing to that press and I think she did that for the entire game like she was doing that for the entire game against Lyon and this goal was well deserved because yeah she she picked the pockets horrible defending, it must be said, by Lyon again.

41:33Jamie: And I think this result in general, Tim, is interesting because I think I've seen a lot of reporting be like Arsenal got lucky. And I don't think that's true. I think that Arsenal performed, it was 16 shots to six, like attacking wise, they were the better team, I think. But Lyon just made two calamitous errors that mean that Arsenal go into the away leg. So it's a hard game in this one, but they are the players that make the difference. That's the knife's edge is who's going to make those attacking runs, who's going to do the defensive work and Olivia Smith is that player. It's a scrappy goal.

42:03Jamie: It's a good finish. But yeah, it just sums up who she is. It's just a workhorse of a player and something that I'll admittedly say I didn't expect when we signed her. Yeah, definitely. I think there's just so much kind of fascinating as well. And this goes to the Men's Champions League about the balance of perhaps leagues overall that are slightly less competitive. Bayern, Barca and Lyon, I believe, all won their leagues during midweek. before they even play the first legs of their semi-finals. And English teams in the WSL tends to be a little bit closer and you don't quite get that. So on one hand, those teams can just rest all their players now and go all in on the Champions League.

42:44On the other hand, like I said, I do just wonder if there is something about Lyon maybe not used to being under that pressure, particularly in the second half of games. and whether that's old, I don't know. Maybe it didn't. But I think Arsenal, you know, next week is going to be really, really tough. But I think Arsenal should take some heart from the fact that, you know, look, when we put them under pressure, Lyon give us stuff. They've given us some silly goals over the last couple of years, actually. And that should be at the forefront of their minds. So good result. 2-1 going into the second leg next week.

43:22that was quite a long first half because there was a lot to get to should we leave it there let's leave it there okay so after the break we'll come back with your questions which were submitted on blue sky right after this and right after i go and get a bottle of water

43:44Jamie: hi friends grace from the working hard podcast here when you're stretching every dollar a little goes a long way and Walmart Business is here to help. They make it easy to order what you need from tech and cleaning supplies to everyday essentials, all at low prices and with helpful tools like spend tracking and tax exempt purchasing for eligible organisations. Because when your operations are smooth, your impact can be bigger. Visit business.warmart.com to get started. Looking for soccer analysis more knowing than a Carlo Ancelotti eyebrow raise? With the World Cup around the corner, join me, Max Rushton and the Guardian's expert soccer journalist on Football Weekly for all the latest soccer action and news throughout the week.

44:17We'll cover more ground, We'll be right back.

44:49Jamie: shows them side by side, and lets you switch in the app. No jumping sites, no re-entering info, no spam calls. It helps you cancel your old policy and keep checking for better rates. We want better for you. Jerry does too. Don't settle. Visit jerry.ai slash ACAST.

45:09Okay, welcome back to the Arsenal Women Ask Cast and AskBlog.com. Rookie error, not to record with a bottle of water, which I always, always do because when you talk a lot, you need to cleanse the palate a little bit, which I didn't do. And it was one of the longest first halves we've ever done. So anyway, palate refreshed. Jamie, would you like to ask the first question?

45:34Jamie: Yeah, sure. This one's player focused and I think there's some context to this one. I thought against Lyon, Alessia Russo looked tired. I think that it was maybe her most quiet performance of the season. It wasn't bad performance. I do think she looked tired and that comes when you are expected to play for country and club. And yeah, but I want to ask about another player given that. What do you see as Frieda Mornham's role in the team moving forward? Given we're seeing Russo start in the 10 over her, do we need an upgrade? I love Russo but want to see her play in front of a 10 that allows her to do less work.

46:07Jamie: This one's from ScotlandGuna15. Yeah, we had a very similar one from SierraST. Freedom Orton was a core part of our starting line-up last season. This season, we've hardly seen her. What happened and do you see a future for her at Arsenal, given planned midfield incomings? I mean, yes, I do. But I think it's a very fair question. So I think in this particular game, Arsenal didn't play through the midfield as much. They did look to go quite direct, which i think kind of skip russo out a little bit but as for frida i think she's just been a bit five out and six out of ten um for a little while i don't think she's been a disaster or a calamity but like the end product numbers haven't really been there um for a little while now i do think she's more been taken over i think the improvement in steiner has has kind of done for her a little bit i don't think it's so much that like renee's wild about having russo in the 10 i think it's just more on balance steiner's performing really well she's shown she's a bit more adaptable she can handle more game states now than she than she could and the on balance she just thinks having informed steiner is probably better than having frida in pretty meh form um as for kind of next season i i'm really uh i'm really kind of intrigued to see how we use reuteler um and by the way i'm told that the um her first name is pronounced with a hard g so it's geraldine uh not geraldine um which is still taking me some time to get used to but i mean reuteler is a player who kind of plays six eight ten out wide but i do wonder whether she'll kind of end up in that role a little bit or whether you know marionna will move higher up i think the midfield will be a bit more flexible next season with some of the players we're bringing in like georgia stanway as well like they're all kind of hybrid players if you know what i mean um and and i have felt for a while like it seems like we decided very quickly that frida is a 10 and that's kind of it she wasn't a 10 when she came to Arsenal she was an 8 and then Jonas kind of pushed her up one and that's it that's all she's ever done ever since and you know I think it would be interesting does that continue if Arsenal moved to a bit more of a fluid midfield structure which I think is probably what René prefers would she be able to do that with her kind of experience as an 8 and a 10 I think it's really interesting I don't think it's been the best season for her I think she's capable of much better um but like I don't see her leaving um what do you reckon on that one yeah anyone that knows me knows I do love Frieda Mornam um but I will I will also admit when a player is probably not informed but I don't think she's been like given the opportunity to be informed I just think like I completely agree it's less about Alessia Russo in the 10 and more about Stina Blackstinius in the nine and how how that partnership works because it's funny it was always like Frieda and Steiner, like that's the only way forward.

49:29Jamie: And now we're finding out that that's just not the way forward. I do think when we have Frida on the pitch, we do give up a lot of like control in the midfield. And I think there is a time and a place to do that. But that is definitely a weakness of her game is we are less consolidated centrally when she's playing. I do also think that she offers so much when she wants to come up as a second nine. And I think that there's a lot of the way that Ella Toon plays in Frida Mornham. And I do think that that is something that we look at Ella Toon and Alessia Russo at Manchester United and obviously a lot at England as well that partnership works so much because Russo is so intelligent she drops into the 10 she knows when Toon needs to play as the nine and I think that they're quite similar Toon and Mornham and I think that there's something there in that kind of partnership that we can use and we did use for a little while but now it's just gotten to the point where you need to reward Steiner why do you not want her on the pitch so I think that there is a lot of value in the way that Frieda Mornham plays and something that I think the key to a lot of these players is how good Alessia Russo is and how versatile she is because she unlocks so much in them.

50:28Jamie: So God forbid she ever misses a game because she's a robot, honestly, at this stage. But no, in terms of will she stay at the club, I think that there's so much value in the way that she plays. But I do think you have to admit that when it comes to a game where you're playing against a high-quality opponent with really good midfielders, you don't want to have her in the team and that's a weakness and that's something that I'll suddenly need to figure out because what is her role then? Because I have visibly sighed a couple of times when she comes on in a really close game. And that's not because I don't rate the player.

50:57Jamie: It's just that I think that she's a very particular type of player. And what Renee demands of her players, you need to be versatile. You need to be able to adapt to the games. You need to be able to play multiple roles. So I think Frida is a weird in between where she's probably one of the only players that I think has a role and has a skill set. And I think that can sometimes kind of hurt the way that she slides into games. And maybe she's not given enough faith because of that. Like maybe she could do this role. So, yeah, I would keep her because I think that there's so much of a talent in this player, but I also think there is a limitation in this player, and maybe that is her.

51:30Jamie: But like you said, she's played as an 8-4. Maybe that's just the fact that Arsenal have other players to do that role, so they're not really willing to take the punt on her and test her in those other roles. So, yeah, I'm in between, but no, I really rate Freedom Ornham, and I think that if she's going to be your backup midfielder, then you're in a good place. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think we've seen some players improve under Rene as well. you know, Stina being one of them in particular. How about this one then from Shane Thomas at TokenBG? Is an underrated aspect of Renee Skillers' head coach, the way she can figure out solutions when important players are missing.

52:07It's something Jonas did well, but maybe it's also a strength of Renee's. Our bench compared to Lyon's was night and day, even with their injuries.

52:16Jamie: I think this is a fantastic question. I think that Renee's strength as a manager is certainly that. I also think her in-game management is just getting so much better. Like almost always at halftime, Arsenal come out better. And I think that used to be down to a whole narrative and we used to always be like this comeback team and in the face of adversity. And again, like a concern I've had under Renee is can we sustain that? But I just think she's so much better than our past managers at correcting. And I think Arsenal always correct at halftime. Against Lyon, they correct. They come out and they just perform better because she's very good at reading the game.

52:49Jamie: in terms of players roles I think it's interesting that this person has said that Jonas was good at that I think that to a degree Jonas was good at that and I think we saw that when we had injuries is he was he was good at adapting players like obviously in that one season where everyone was injured lots of what and more he comes in the next season she's the player of the season like you can he could rely on his backup players I don't know if he could necessarily find a solution though I think it was more he was able to get the best out of his players and that's a strength in itself but I don't know if he was able to foresee that you buy Mariana Caldente as a left winger from Barcelona and suddenly she's your eight in the double pivot.

53:25Jamie: I think that's a very original skill from Renee Slaggers is her way to kind of give these players this breadth to their game and make them really versatile presences and get like Chloe Kelly was down and out. Get her from Manchester City. I miss watching her play. Her injury luck has just been horrible this season. Now she's playing a new role. You have to be a defensive winger, but we also don't want you to lose your flair. And I think what Renee's really good at is she's good at balancing these characteristics in players. She's not asking them to take away their attacking prowess because she needs them to play a defensive role.

53:58Jamie: It's just, she's instilling in them that that's their role and that's what they need to do. And when you have a player like Mariana Caldente playing in the eight, a lot of teams I think would make that mistake. And then she's playing in the eight, she's losing how strong she's going forward. And she's suddenly a defensive player. Renee's managed to make her still our best ball user and our most exciting player, but she's playing a more defensive role. And I don't think that's something that Jonas was able to do. And I think that's something very unique to Renee. And that's why Arsenal beginning to click because there's a reason we're clicking at the end of these seasons.

54:27Jamie: And there's a reason we're playing so well in the Champions League against some of Europe's best is the manager is just doing so well at instilling what she wants to do with these players. So I don't agree that it was a strength of Jonas's, but at the same time, I think what Renee is able to problem solve in the face of adversity is very good. Like Katie Reid, trusting her at the start of the season is phenomenal. Playing Katie McCabe as a centre-back, I don't think is tactical. I think that's just a Hail Mary. You have to do it. But Steph Catley was a Jonas thing. That's completely true. I do think he was presented with that issue though because she was losing her pace.

54:58Jamie: So I'm kind of in between, but I will praise the fact that I think, yeah, Renee's brilliant at kind of solving the issues for players and allowing them to be really good in a position they're maybe not used to. Yeah, René referenced afterwards the intelligence of the players, and I think that's so key as well. At the risk of banging on about it, these players, all of them other than Libya Smith are over 27 years old. They're all between 27 and 35. In Kim's case, and they've been together for years, and so I think it's, not to take credit away from René, but I think it's easier with that. I think next season, when perhaps we've got a slightly newer team, it'll be interesting to see how that works.

55:42And again, that plays into what I was talking about earlier. I should have mentioned Chloe Kelly as well in terms of that 27 kind of age range. You know, this squad isn't going to be 21, 22 years old overnight. It's going to go down like 27, that kind of age, I think. And I think a lot of that is because you need players who are experienced at the highest level to be able to do that. Your turn for a question.

56:14Jamie: Okay, this one is about Lota Wobbenmoy, because I think it's time that we maybe speak about it. This is a bit of a double barrel one. This is from AlexLodge.uk. Is Lota flying under the radar as a candidate for our player of the season? But a bit of a double barrel question here for you, Tim, from Dave Brown. Barring injury based on current form, Lota has to start every week, surely, in which case is a partnership of her and Leah better than one of either of them with Steph? Discuss. Yeah, that's a really, really interesting one. And I think, look, we asked Renee about Steph. It doesn't sound like she's going to be back for the second leg.

56:53So it's probably not really something we're going to have to come up against for a little bit. she's definitely expected back before the end of the season so that that question is going to come up uh and at the moment i think there's kind of a bit of a need to manage leah's minutes as she kind of comes back i mean i kind of think you can't drop lotter um at the moment um i it's mega mega harsh on steph catley who i think has just been absolutely incredible um but at the moment i'd stick with leah lotter if they're if they're all fit at the moment a bit like earlier in the season when katie reed came in and it's just like you can't take her out um you know it was injury that took her out and uh i do think there's a lot to be said for that and as much as like steph definitely really adds something as a left footer i didn't like i didn't maybe it's because it's only one game it's too small a sample size that that didn't jump out at me you You know, like the lack of a left footer, maybe, you know, because Katie played the last 25 minutes at centre half and therefore we did kind of have it.

58:03But I wasn't like, oh, we really, really missed that. You know, I felt, you know, Lotta actually passes quite well on her left foot. So, yeah, really, really interesting. But I kind of wouldn't argue it any way, though. Like, let's say all three of them were available for the second leg. I don't think I'd argue with any combination of them. To be honest, that's a really good position to be in. How about – sorry, I didn't let you answer that one.

58:36Jamie: My answer is the same. I don't think there's an argument for either. I think we're finally in a good position where that's the breadth there, but I also think we're always going to be faced with injuries. I don't think you need to make a particular case for either. I just think it's great to see Lot playing at the level she is because we know how good she can be when she's good. yeah absolutely and she's that magic age 27 as well um slightly different one here from at Bolton Gooner uh terrific result yesterday and a lot to be optimistic about for next week but is it okay to be disappointed with the attendance and level of promotion for this game so I think it's 26 ,000 and something the two remaining home games will likely be small crowds because they're midweek feel we should have gone big for this so it's a similar attendance to the same game last season but obviously you know three seasons ago in the semi-final we got a sellout for the Wolfsburg game and this was a Sunday mid-afternoon we should add the context there was the London Marathon there was an FA Cup semi-final I went through London Bridge about midday and my word there you know like when you go to the toilet and a lot of women just give up and queue up for the men's.

59:49That was the situation in the station toilets. Very, very busy in London. But, you know, what do you think about that, about the attendance and I guess the level of promotion for the game?

1:00:02Jamie: Yeah, well, it's hard for me to judge because usually I'm walking through the streets of North London. So I don't really know if there was a lot of promotion. Apparently not, as the people are saying, because, you know, you often see tube station, like it's everywhere. but also on social media there was like no push for this game. I think the Wolfsburg game is always going to be an anomaly because of the fact that Arsenal weren't playing at the Emirates often. Like there was the Chelsea game, like there was the big games and then there was the Champions League. So I do think that was a game that Arsenal were going to push for.

1:00:32Jamie: It was a really, really great moment. It is disappointing that it's not been sustained but I think it's very easy to say it's not been sustained and then forget about the fact that we're playing every WSL game at the Emirates, like we're playing Champions League games at the Emirates. So the club are definitely backing the women's team as far as giving them the stage that they deserve. I do think the promotion should have been more though. That's disappointing turnout for a semifinal against Lyon. And I don't think you can make the case that it's like not a transferable men's team because like Wolfsburg, not really either in terms of their fan base outside of Germany.

1:01:03Jamie: So, yeah, I think that, yeah, it's a disappointing turnout, I would say. But Tim, you're always better answering these questions. yeah i i think um i think it coming off the back of an international break made some elements of like promoting it difficult or sorry more difficult um you know you're right there are there are just more games there now i i guess the way i look at it more is we seem to have a resting kind of attendance of somewhere between 25 and 30 000 and i don't think anyone else has that yeah like at nearly anywhere like I'm not as familiar in terms of NWSL kind of attendances but I'm not aware of anyone else in Europe that comes close to that um really and so it's it's it's difficult for me not to look at it from the point of view like wow we that's kind of our average attendance and how quickly that happened um but you know I don't want to hand wave like yeah of course like we were coming we saw one game out but like you know this was this was still lower tier only um on what you know could and should have been like a reasonably favorable time and I think it's a real shame that Everton game is midweek by the way that last one yeah um there's going to be some players probably saying goodbye and I think I'd have much preferred that to go on the weekend and maybe the Villa game to become a midweek game but I don't think Arsenal control all of that yeah I just this where we've kind of been for a while and this seems to be where the needle's resting more or less and that to me completely justifies using the Emirates because where the hell so where the hell else would we go and that we could actually use um we'd be able to facilitate that um let's do one more question each I think it's your turn isn't it yeah so this is looking ahead to midweek we have a big game against leicester city tim it must be hard for the players to kind of adjust to this when the block is hard like that's a definite mental thing anyway this person uh egg at fever bitch has said what changes would you make against leicester and what changes do you think will be made to preserve energy from the second leg and then similarly um similarly clive b has said is wednesday's match against leicester the definition of a trap game?

1:03:27Jamie: Easy to mess up as the team expect to win and have their eye on the return leg against Lyon. But does it actually matter if we lose against Leicester? I mean, yes, I think it would because then the other games in hand are much trickier. And also we have a chance to put pressure on Man City, which I still think City will get it done, but I'd like to put as much pressure on them as possible. It could be a trap game. I mean, they lost 5-1 to LCL. They do kind of look like they've given up. I mean, I would make as many changes as possible, basically. So I think, you know, Annika Borba in goal, Holmberg, Kadina, you probably keep Lotta in because, you know, she didn't play as much in the first half of the season anyway.

1:04:17Taylor Hines at the back. Victoria Pelova should come in for one of the central midfielders. Frieda Mornham should come in. I'm not sure what else we can do with the front three because I don't think we're expecting Beth Mead or Chloe Kelly so it probably is going to have to be Smith and Ford and Steiner up front I'd rest Russo so yeah kind of as many changes as reasonably possible so pretty much everyone that was on the bench maybe except Sophie Harwood because she's a fullback and they're already two other fullbacks who will probably come in so uh and I probably wouldn't go that far anyway um going down to that so I think seven eight changes and you know the rest of the players on the bench this is like this is the one WSL fixture where I think Arsenal should be able to do that um to be honest and I think it's pretty set that Leicester are going to be in that last relegation space and I don't get a big sense that they're massively, essentially they're going to count on the playoff.

1:05:23And unfortunately with what's happened to the men's team, I don't think Leicester are longed for the WSL one way or another, quite frankly. So yeah, I mean, I guess we'll see, but I would be very disappointed if it wasn't a handy win with a reasonably heavily rotated side. What do you reckon?

1:05:43Jamie: Yeah, completely agree. This is the best fixture for us to be playing. Like we're not facing Villa at Villa Park in between Champions League games. Like this is thank you fixturing gods. I feel bad for Leicester watching them. Like I don't know if you watched the LCL game, but it was hard because they had a hope and then it was just hope quashed and they just don't have the squad. Like their squad is just nowhere near where it should be. A lot of injuries, but even without injuries, like no backing. And obviously, yeah, like you said, that will continue to cast a doubt over the squad because of the men's team getting relegated.

1:06:15Jamie: But I just think, yeah, Arsenal need to rotate and I think that they can. I think that it will be fine. I do think that the game really matters though. And if we don't win, I will be headless. I will be so angry. Like City playing, obviously United fumble on the weekend. So it means Arsenal I think only need four points or five points from our remaining games, which is a really good place to be and to have a Champions League spot. I also just would have liked United to stay in that race because United-Chelsea on the last day would have been great if that had something to play for. I do think Gareth Taylor coming up against his old side next weekend, guys.

1:06:46Jamie: You just never know. Arsenal fans retain hope. You simply never know. No, but lots of rotation, Tim. And, yeah, we need to win it anyway. We don't want to be stressing about Champions League later on when we're going to be, yeah, busy. Yeah, and second place goes straight into the group phase, no qualifiers, whereas third place does. And I don't want to go through those qualifiers. to be honest if I can avoid it. Let's do a last one. I'm going to combine two questions because they both look ahead to the second leg next week. The first one, Katina McStenius at Laguna Beach asks, is winning the first leg against Lyon actually counterproductive?

1:07:23We saw against Chelsea how having something to protect made us play more cautiously. And Sophie Pruedzius asks, what do you think our lineup will look like for the second leg, especially considering that Lyon's lineup may look quite different. So I guess, yeah, both around the second leg, the fact that we're taking a narrow lead there, how do you see us kind of lining up there?

1:07:50Jamie: Yeah, lineup I expect to be very similar because of who's available. Same. Yeah, I don't think if any, any changes probably. And then in terms of the game, I think, yeah, we've been conditioned like the second halves and all things is definitely like we're the comeback team and that really benefited, like we benefit from that last Champions League campaign. Obviously, I think that these players are really, really good at like motivating themselves and coming back from adversity and that's been a trend for five or six years now and sometimes it's not a good thing, sometimes it's a bad thing and obviously that Lyon game at the Group Harmo was just exceptional.

1:08:25Jamie: Like it's everything, exceeded all of our expectations last season. I just, I never think that a lead is a bad thing And I think that in the Chelsea game, I don't think we were that cautious. I thought that it was actually a really good performance. I think it's always going to be cagey. But if you look back at maybe for the last three or four seasons, every game we've played against Chelsea, we play very conservative football for the first 20 minutes. And the only time we've like really struggled and not executed that was at the Emirates in that game where they scored the two opening goals and Ramirez kicked it over her head.

1:08:55Jamie: And that was kind of the only time we've not played that conservative brand. and we tried to. It was just a big epic failure. So I think maybe like that's what the game is referencing. We were a little bit more conservative. I don't think the lead really played into that though. Like obviously we're going to protect the lead, but I think that we still attack the ball a lot and there was chances and I do think both teams were punching. So I don't think we're going to go to Lyon and sit back because Lyon aren't going to want us to do that either. They're going to want to be able to run through us.

1:09:22Jamie: So yeah, I do think a lead is always a good thing, Tim. I would never say a 1-0 lead is not a good thing And I think that this team has shown that they know how to kind of come back in a second leg and correct. And there's a lot to gain from a win as much as there is a loss. Yeah, I expect the team to be exactly the same. Actually, I just hope that Chloe Kelly and Beth Mead can be in the squad, you know, to kind of come on, particularly from an attacking point of view. I think so much of it is going to be about that first kind of 15, 20 minutes. So I expect Leon to fly out and, you know, survive that and then perhaps, you know, try and, you know, try and get some of that space in behind that, you know, the last two times we've been there, we found plenty of it.

1:10:04It's a big pitch as well at the group Arma. So, you know, I think there is going to be space to attack. And like I said earlier, we should take some encouragement from the fact that when we've put Lyon under pressure, they've given us stuff over the last few years. No guarantee that they'll do it again, but, you know, you kind of keep cracking on with that. unfortunately Jonathan Giraldes did say that he expects De Mournay and Selma Basia to be back for this game and listen I'd rather they weren't to be honest so that's an extra threat we're going to have to deal with but at the same time you know they came with because of those injuries I think Lyon came with a more solid team particularly having those like three really kind of central midfielders in trade a heaps and And I'm blanking on the third one.

1:11:01Egerola came on. Yeah, that's it, yeah.

1:11:03Jamie: And Egerola, the one that came on. Egerola came on, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not a bad top to bring on either. Whereas, yeah, you know, De Mourne, whether she plays instead of Hegerberg or one of those midfielders, she can do either. Wouldn't be surprised with either. To be honest, Lyon have got a lot of looks, basically. They've got the players to do slightly different things. So I expect them to be a bit more outgoing. a bit more adventurous in this game, but at the same time, that's going to give us space. We're going to have to exploit it. So yeah, game on. I think it's going to be a really exciting game.

1:11:39I think it might be a nervy, tense one, but as much as I'm not going to be at the Leicester game because I'm at another Champions League semifinal, we'll be in Lyon and we'll have all the usual coverage for you from Lyon. In fact, I can't even make Rene's press conference on Tuesday. It comes like they've showed you. I've literally got one appointment on Tuesday and it's exactly the same. Yeah, I have to pick that up subsequently. But there was a lot to get to there, Jamie, but it was a Champions League semi-final between teams who won it 10 times between them. So looking forward to the second leg.

1:12:19And yeah, we'll talk about that perhaps on Sunday or Monday next week.

1:12:25Jamie: yeah it's a blessing to be talking about uh long episodes about the champions league instead of wsl at this time of the year so i love sitting here with you tim yeah absolutely so um yeah we'll be at leon uh we'll be at brian we'll be at everything except leicester um basically and um for those of you who are patrons uh for us blog uh tickets for our live show go on sale on Wednesday to patrons that's going to be on Saturday 16th of May at the Union Chapel um I'm going to be running from Anfield to try and make that I'm not even sure if I'm gonna be able to get on stage because obviously we finished the WSL season at Anfield so I will be in the hands of Avanti Northwest which is not good hands to be in quite frankly I might even make the second half of the show but um that will come out and we're going to have something um for you probably on our youtube channel towards the end of this week um to look forward to as well so do join us for all of that um thank you so much to those of us those of you rather who have uh donated to the fundraiser uh where we've raised so much money uh for the arsenal foundation and the coaching for life program um in in jordan uh the zaturi refugee camp so thank you to everyone who's donated if you're a patron you've donated because all the patron money for april was donated to that cause and we will speak to you next week after the second leg of arsenal leon until then thanks so much

1:14:17Looking for soccer analysis more knowing than a Carlo Ancelotti eyebrow raise? With the World Cup around the corner, join me, Max Rushton, and the Guardian's expert soccer journalist on Football Weekly for all the latest soccer action and news throughout the week. We'll cover more ground than Drew Bellingham in a Champions League final with conversations sharper than an Arsenal set piece. For fine margins, fun debates, and full-blooded tackles, Football Weekly. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and watch the full episodes on YouTube. Thank you.