Arsenal Women Arsecast Episode 167: An Irish Goodbye

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0:45Hello and welcome to the Arsenal Women Ask Cast on AskBlog.com with me your host Tim Stillman looking back on Saturday, Sunday, Friday. I feel like this weekend has been a complete blur for me but Saturday's 3-1 win at Anfield over Liverpool to finish out the season Arsenal I was going to say guaranteed and of course they are the tables final it's over Arsenal have finished in second place and weirdly only two points behind Manchester City just having had those games in hand for so long that that kind of looks so weird that actually we finish really really close but two points behind Manchester City but I mean the real headline from that is that Arsenal are straight into the group phase next season of the Champions League no horrible qualifiers or anything like that for the second year in a row which I think is very welcome even if it's not exactly what everyone wanted at the beginning of the season but to go over well not go over the game blow by blow like we usually do we're gonna we're gonna go a little bit more widescreen, a bit more thematic on Saturday's season closer at Anfield and some other subjects that have come up since we last recorded and here to do that as ever as our co-host Jamie Spanger.

1:58Jamie, how are you doing?

1:59Jamie: Hi Tim, I can't believe the WSL season's over. That's how I'm doing. It feels kind of weird, it just ended and I thought oh that's it then, well there you go. Feels a bit weird when it's like kind of decided on the penultimate day but no I'm good. I'm excited to get into this episode Tim, I feel like there's a lot to get into. However, I'm a bit emotional. I'm recovering from Saturday's game at Anfield. So let's just rip the band-aid off. Yeah, yeah. Like I said, we're not going to go through the game blow by blow like we usually do because we just don't think this kind of end-of-season game warrants it.

2:30Don't think Liverpool were particularly at the races. I think we knew that we were going to get second place done. But, I mean, first off, since we last recorded, we had the new... Well, obviously, we had the Everton game on Wednesday night and there were some really nice goodbyes to some really big players. And then the next evening, it transpired. We had the announcement that Katie McCabe is going to leave at the end of her contract. Now, I think we've kind of cleared this up on Ars Blog News and through other reporters as well. But basically, the reason for that was that her contract situation was up in the air until, I think, the day of the game, essentially.

3:09And I'm not even totally convinced that by the time the game finished, there was a definite mutual. I kind of think the decision got communicated and agreed the next morning. But I think when we saw Katie McCabe crying on the pitch at the end of the game, that was a fair sign of what was coming. We'll go through this in stages a little bit, Jamie. So we'll go through the handling of it. We do actually have an interview with Katie to drop in in a couple of minutes. But first of all, before we go into the handling and I think the unfortunate side of her not getting that goodbye at the Emirates, what were your immediate thoughts?

3:49Were you surprised at all by this news?

3:52Jamie: I wasn't surprised. I wasn't surprised. Obviously, the precursor was the game at the Emirates against Everton and her farewell to the fans without it actually being a farewell was very obvious. I wasn't surprised. I think this is a player that in the last couple of months we've seen still has a really high level to her football. She has a couple of years left of her career at the highest level. And I think in women's football, we're beginning to get to a place where players are seen for what they deserve. And I think players are realising that there's other clubs as well that see them for what they deserve as well.

4:24Jamie: And I do think this kind of U-turn, it's unprofessional from the club and I think we'll come on to the handling of it. But I wasn't surprised. I think that this news was something that was in the mail and something that we've maybe been denying for a couple of weeks. But we all maybe knew that it was a big possibility. And like I said, the Everton game was, yeah, the stamp. Yeah, yeah. I didn't honestly know whether she'd signed. You know, it was it was Catherine Batty who really kind of reported the fact that the club were kind of U-turning, considering offering her a new deal. And they did. My kind of understanding of that is that the calculus changed when she played at centre back.

5:00And I think basically the club then saw her as a potential versatile kind of high level squad option at that point. And that's kind of a big part of the U-turn. From my understanding, it's not because they don't want to buy a central defender or anything like that. My understanding is it wouldn't have impacted potential incomings. but I think that there's an acknowledgement inside the club that the squad needs to be bigger next season. I think it's the case really for Beth and Katie, where it was a bit like, we'd like to keep you, but maybe on, I don't know, like a one plus one deal and maybe you won't start every week.

5:44And I do think, well, I kind of know the club were kind of clear about that. And obviously the players have got better offers elsewhere. So that's very much the case with Beth Mead. and I think everyone understands that. I think most people probably understand that offer from Arsenal, whether you agree with it or not, but understand that. And I think a lot of people understand why Beth would say, well, actually, I've got a better offer somewhere else. I think in isolation, you'd understand Katie thinking the same thing, thinking, do I want to be a high-level, versatile squad player or do I want to go to Manchester City and be their first choice left back?

6:18And again, I think the calculus for that, I think it's quite understandable. but obviously Jamie the the the late you turn on it I mean I haven't really detected a downturn in McCabe the player and I think there are kind of cultural reasons um maybe and Renee's talked a lot in the last kind of couple of games she's talked about how like she wants other players to really step up in that leadership um kind of kind of space and and i think sometimes like i get that right and it doesn't have to be a criticism of the person sometimes you have to take out a big personality so that other people can grow a little bit and i think renee's been hinting at that and i think i understood all of that but then to be like oh actually she can play center back she might be a handy squad player that just still feels a bit odd to me because katie the player and katie the person have not changed and will not change and so all of the kind of reasons that we think for not offering her the contract in the first place are kind of still there and obviously in the end the the really unfortunate thing and we did ask renee this question in the in the pre-match podcast podcast the pre-match press conference I asked about you know that that cost her her goodbye at the Emirates and Renee said yeah it's really unfortunate we're we're not happy about it I mean I do think I you know I can't and won't and shouldn't try to defend the handling of that I think I think that I think that's quite messy what do you think yeah I have been simmering down

8:03Jamie: over the last few days and calming down from this situation because I think going back to what you said about Beth Mead, completely agree and I think fans and club and everyone is very like that was a fitting end to like a brilliant Arsenal career and 100 % you go for the bigger contract. We have someone like Olivia Smith who's probably going to be starting in your position. You've done so much for the club. Like if you don't want to take that deal, everyone is mutually agreeing and that's fair enough. From a Katie McCabe perspective, I think there is a lot more nuance to it And like you said, Tim, like this is a starting player.

8:34Jamie: She's our starting left back. She came on as like she rotated as a centre-back in a Champions League quarterfinal against our biggest rivals and did an amazing job. And this is a player that I think does – it's not even – she still has things to offer. I still think she's integral to this Arsenal team. It's not she has a lot left to give. Like, oh, she can probably give us a few more seasons. I still think this Arsenal team suffers massively without Katie McCabe. and I also think when you think back on the last 10 years of her career this is a player that I don't know if I can name anyone that's given more to the badge like every single game 110 % every single game and like there's a lot of discussions on player loading and players wanting to be fit for national teams and obviously a lot of that is whispers and rumors and things like that but before the World Cup when Ireland were making their World Cup debut their international tournament debut Katie McCabe was in a boot against Bayern Munich three days later she's scoring against Man City like this is a player that has never once like put anything above playing for the club or the country but she's a present player this is my role in the present this is what I have to do as a footballer in the present and she puts everything into that and I don't think there's many players like that in the world let alone not just women's football international football and she's never once wavered in her commitment and loyalty to the club and you can see that on the pitch you can see that off the pitch and obviously I completely agree with the whole if there is a cultural reason if there's like a not even a tactical reason but there has to be a direction with the club and if Renee's direction was Katie McCabe we need to like we need to replace her personality and we need to kind of give a bigger role to other players we want to get rid of the the you know we want to lower the age of the squad I completely understand that but there wasn't a direction in this situation because they u-turned and I think it's disrespectful of the player who's given so much to say oh we think you can actually play centre-back can you stay like I know you've given everything for the last 10 years but now that you can play centre-back maybe we do actually want you and I think that's pretty disappointing for a player that I think would run through a brick wall for anyone that she's going to play for but especially Arsenal and going back to what happened with Viviana Miedema like that was disappointing because we lost one of the best players in the world but the club was so firm on their decision and I think that offered me at least so much comfort because Jonas and his backroom staff were saying that this is the direction we want to head in we've just gotten Alessio Russo we still have Stena Blackstinias we're signing someone like marina caldente like viv you've been an amazing club server but this is the philosophy that we want to instill now whereas this movement is you're saying goodbye to a massive player on terms that make make little sense now that you've turned and i just think yeah it's a disrespect to the the legacy that she has made at arsenal and yeah i am not happy at all tim but again i can understand why she's done it 100 because i think a lot of people would do the same thing yeah and Of course, and one of the things Renee said, you know, when we asked that question on Friday was like, obviously we'll do everything we can to honour her and she captains the team in this game.

11:23And I think rightly so, I think that's the least I could do really. And as much as it was a shame that she didn't get the goodbye at the Emirates, I really think, again, our away fans deserve a lot of credit because, I mean, first of all, 3 ,000 for a 1pm kickoff for, again, that didn't have a great deal riding on it. Again, just like there are WSL teams who aren't getting that for their home games. And it's just been such a great season of full away ends. And I was sitting opposite where the away fans were. And it's just so incredible to see. But they also pulled it out of the fire because they gave the player a really, really great send-off.

12:05I think at very, very short notice, arranged for a lot of Irish flags. a lot of tri-colour hats and things like that. And what was really nice was the away fans were along the side and that was the side Katie was playing in the first half. So, you know, she kind of had to be over there. And, you know, we'll drop the interview in a second, but she said it was like coming out for an island game. And I think, you know, like I said, the away fans kind of pulled it out of the bag because they really gave her a kind of a good buy that really she should have got the Emirates on Wednesday. Sorry, but because of the circumstances of this, it kind of felt like, obviously, in Beth and Katie in particular, we're losing two massive players, very long-serving, loyal players.

12:54And I guess, in a way, it kind of feels like Wednesday was about Beth and Saturday was about Katie. And in a way, by accident, it must be said, it kind of they both got you know like that like the attention wasn't split which i suppose worked out okay in the end but um you know um the outcome was okay the process was not um but listen we we had the chance uh to talk to katie um after the game she promised to kind of talk to us kind of exclusively full disclosure was really hoping to do like a sit down with katie um you know towards the end of her time at Arsenal, but obviously the contract situation changed, which meant, you know, doing the big sit down goodbye interview.

13:39You know, that was a little bit up in the air, but she came and chatted to us after the game. You know, someone who's given a lot of time to this site, you know, she might be the player I've interviewed the most over the years. And I know she has an affection for this site as well, because we're based in Dublin and that means quite a bit to her as well. So here's my chat with Katie after the game. Katie, how surreal does it feel that that was your last game for Arsenal? It hasn't quite sunk in yet. The last two weeks have been an emotional one with the girls, with the team. Had some family stuff going on.

14:21Obviously, I missed the game against Villa and stuff. So it's been an emotional two weeks. But look, obviously, for me, coming in as a 20-year-old 10 years ago, not knowing what to expect, leaving here having won everything and giving my absolute everything to the club, building up the relationship with the fans since 200-300 people at Boromod up until, even today, packing out the away stand, 3 ,000 people, the Emirates as well on Wednesday, it was incredible. We've had so many amazing moments together, highs and lows. They've been there at the forefront of everything. So, yeah, it's going to be a hard one.

15:01Not hearing the chanting anymore. But, yeah, one I really enjoyed today, along with the other girls out there as well. Yeah, I was going to say, because obviously you didn't quite get the chance to say goodbye on Wednesday night. I think people could see your emotion on the pitch and could probably guess what was coming. But, you know, seeing all the Irish flags in there as well today. Yeah, it was crazy because I was able to captain the team today, which I was absolutely honoured to do for the last time. I was leading them out and it felt like I was walking out to an Ireland game. That was kind of the joking around with the girls, saying we have to defend Ireland today.

15:39But yeah, it was amazing. But that's the fans bringing the tricolours over, supporting myself and the team, the whole 90 minutes all the way through. and yeah, it was a nice mountain towards the end. Same boy today. And what is it about this club that's made you stay for so long? It's just their ambition. Their ambition, for me individually, it's being able to work every day with world-class players, top coaches, learn and really stretch yourself out of your comfort zone and I think that's why I've been able to play at such a high level for so long is the constant demands and standards we have day to day you have to be consistent and you have to be ready and look after yourself and we've got the product at the club to do that and yeah it's the reason why we were successful even last year winning the Champions League that was like the icing on the cake ticked everything off but yeah I think for me it's the standards and the demands every day to make sure you're at your best and just a final one do you have a favourite goal or moment that really stands out for you?

16:52There's so many, 10 years. I'd have a top 10 probably. Do you know what? There's been so many moments, but for me nothing will beat winning the Champions League last year in Lisbon. The way we've done it, our journey from start to finish, using everybody in the squad throughout the whole campaign, Stina getting the winner. yeah I just that was probably one of the happiest weekends of my life yeah the trophy parade obviously with the fans and everything yeah nothing nothing can top that in an Arsenal shirt for me brushed up on the singing since then oh I'm not allowed near the mic anymore definitely not but I'll leave the singing to the fans but yeah it's just been an incredible 10 years for sure so that was me speaking to Katie after the game on Saturday.

17:49Glad to hear that she is retiring her singing career and leaving that to the Arsenal fans, as she put it. But a lovely touch that she got to lead the team out as well and captain them. And it was quite, I mean, I say a sentimental line-up. Like at centre-back, there wasn't a lot of choice and Kim's been given the last two games off, basically. I'm not even sure she warmed up in either of the last two games. So Victoria Pilova comes in, Laia Kadina comes in, kind of had to anyway. Beth Mead starting, like they all start. And I felt like, and of course, Arsenal still needed a point, at least to make sure of second place.

18:32But I don't think any of these are bad players. I liked that, Jamie. I liked that they all got to start their last game.

18:39Jamie: Yeah, completely agree. I also think Arsenal have a bit of a habit of when this kind of happens and there's a big emotional farewell against an all right team that are kind of on the ups. They get the job done against Brighton in Miedema's last game as well. Like I just think when the sentiment, this team play well, that couldn't be taken as a criticism or a compliment. But yeah, no, I was happy with this as well. Good to see. Yeah, very good to see, Tim. I had no notes. And, you know, Arsenal kind of go into a three-goal lead. Liverpool were doing that kind of player-for-player pressure. Arsenal were playing through it very easily this is how I thought the game would go to be honest Liverpool had nothing to play for really they had a massive disappointment last weekend against Brighton so I was kind of expecting like you say these end of season games for Arsenal when the pressure's off and not just for Arsenal I think I think for all of the big clubs that kind of happens more or less like last game of the season nothing on it everyone's a bit relaxed the opposition probably relax a bit you just go out and and tonk them, quite frankly.

19:42And that's kind of what happened here. And another really strong game for Lesley Russo in this game. I still don't know if the first goal has officially been given to her. Has it?

19:54Jamie: I think so. I think it has been. I still haven't seen a replay, but I had quite a good sight of it from where I was in the press box, and I didn't think Steiner had touched it. But the second goal is definitely hers. it's another really strong game for Alessio Russo. For me, when I vote for player of the season, I'm not going to think about it very much. But we talked about Katie being captain in this game. Alessio was captain on Wednesday night. And I feel like, Jamie, as much as we've been saying goodbye to some big players and some big leaders, I felt Russo being captain on Wednesday night, particularly ahead of Lotta, because I was expecting Lotta to take the armband.

20:38that that to me felt like a little glimpse into the future. And Renee said afterwards, it's a little bit about how she's stepped up this season. And it's the first time that they've publicly communicated that Russo is in the leadership group. And that, as much as we've been looking back a little bit, I mean, both her being captain felt like a look forward to me. But I mean, in this game, again, she's just been sensational all season, I think.

21:09Jamie: Yeah, it feels interesting to say because obviously she's been a really integral part of the team for the last couple of seasons, but this feels like the beginning of like the Alessia Russo era where this team is going to be led out by Alessia Russo, whether that is with an armband, not with an armband. the levels we've seen her rise to this season have been different and I think that I always look back at her last season at United and they were really dominant to be fair Manchester United and I thought that was like the most purely dominant we've seen Alessia Russo play because she had to she was the most reliable goal scorer for them but since then Arsenal I think she's she's doing too much like she's always done kind of too many roles or picked up the ball in places she doesn't need to she's just a hard worker and sometimes I think that takes away from how skillful she is as a player.

21:51Jamie: So I think this season we've seen her rise to a level where she can be the player that drags Arsenal through the mud. It doesn't have to be a defender. It doesn't have to be a midfielder that's just doing a job and running the yards. It can be your star player. She can just be your best player and she can be your best player every week. And I'm not saying she's bunny sure levels of I'm going to drag the team and score every single week. But I don't think there's, I don't think it's crazy to think there's a world where she's not that and she's not just the best player in the league all the time.

22:17Jamie: And I know we've seen her a lot at Arsenal, like I said, but Tim, something in the air right now feels like this is the beginning of her era. And this is the era where you're the center of the team now. We'll build the team around you and we'll see what you can do. And she's just a rare talent in football to be able to be that good in so many places on the pitch, to be able to be a really humble person and be able to be so good at football and raising levels constantly. She's won a lot of trophies for club and country. I just think yeah it's weird Tim it's a weird feeling where it's like we know you so well but I feel like we're now getting to know you and this is yeah the start of something big yeah definitely just when you see a player go to that that next level and every good team has those indispensable reference players where it's like you're starting every game basically every game and that and that's what every big club does with their big players and she is becoming one of those like two three like proper reference players for Arsenal.

23:14Speaking of reference players for Arsenal, the other goal in the first half scored by Mariana. Another, I think this is the third time in two seasons we've scored a low set piece against Liverpool. So a short corner between McAve and Mariana really beautifully worked. But again, Liverpool, very, very big team, big centre-backs, very, very good in the air. So we work a short corner along the ground. And Mariana just absolutely dispatches it in the top corner. Lovely, lovely goal. And Mariana's a player because obviously last season, she was just so obviously the player of the season. Again, like another vote you didn't have to think about when doing player of the season, even for the whole league.

23:56I don't think it required that much thought last season. And I think it's fair to say she hasn't quite been at that level this season. But how have you viewed her season overall? I think there's been a lot of discussion about her.

24:10Jamie: Yeah, I think this is an interesting one because you're right. Last season, it was like every game you're turning up and you're showing us something that we've not seen yet. I think a big element of it is we're watching a player now, Tim, that we're used to watching. So we're not like surprised by what she's doing on the pitch. And I think that that's a really big part of football. You get to know a player, you forget how good they are. And I think that is a little bit of what Mariona is doing. Is she still doing the same stuff? She's just not the X Factor player anymore. And look, I think a big part of that comes from who's playing around you.

24:37Jamie: Like she isn't having to be the X Factor player right now because how many times is Olivia Smith scoring goals from outside the box? Like she can be the build-up player. And she has been. There's been a lot of times this season on this podcast where we're praising the first pass that is split open, led to a chain, led to a really good goal. Alessia Russo has obviously dropped into the midfield as well. So she's kind of that X Factor midfielder as well. I don't think Mariana's had a bad season by any means. Like I really don't think so. I just think she's had a less exciting season and maybe we're used to a player that's playing a role now.

25:06Jamie: and she's playing a role now. She's been in the pivot all season. We've not wondered where she's going to pop up or wonder where Renee is going to play her. So I think she's becoming a system player. And again, like, of course, naturally, we're all going to think that she's had less of an impressive season. But Tim, I do think like she's the most interesting discussion point in this Arsenal team right now because whoever they sign, I think they need to think about, okay, where does that put Mariona in this team? Because do you want her to be an eight? Do you want her to be a 10? Where do you want her to play on the pitch?

25:33Jamie: And then your signings have to kind of accord with that. So I'm interested to see how this summer goes. Because like I said, if you sign a CDM, you put Mariona in the 10. If you sign an 8, does she stay in the pivot? There's a lot of questions for the future to be asked. But Tim, in terms of her season, I think it's been a solid season. I don't think it's been amazing by any means. But I think if you took her out of this team, we would definitely miss her presence. A hundred percent. I completely agree with you in terms of like, and this happens to all players once you get used to them. You get used to them.

26:03I'm totally with you. if she'd been out for even three games we'd we'd be like oh my god do you remember that that one period of the season kim was out and it that encompassed like the draw against spurs the 3-2 defeat against bayern munich i think we drew with chelsea i think maybe we beat 20-1 nil or something in the champions league and weren't that good like we had five or six games without kim and they were basically all crap and you're just like oh that's what we look like without Kim Little and and we haven't had that with Mariana because she has not been injured at any point in the last two seasons and and because we've lacked depth in midfield she's had to play every game this year I think that's taken a toll on her a little bit towards the end as well but I'm totally with you I think like I think it's a mixture of us getting used to her but I think you're right as well in terms of like um yeah like a player like olivia smith russo's kind of gone to another level there's perhaps less onus on her to do the spectacular like she does in this game really and to be more of a kind of middle third kind of player and if you check all the data by the way for like passes completed pass into the final third passes into the penalty area xg assisted and all of that she's top of all of it like she really is like the the numbers really really do bring it out I think but I completely agree with your assessment that like we're just used to her now basically and it feels less like life-changing you know speaking of things and so you know we're three nil up at half time lots comes off at half time I think it's like a slight knock so Katie McCabe finishes her Arsenal career at centre-back disappointed she didn't get a going goal for the last five minutes I think that would have been nice but speaking of things we've been getting used to Liverpool get one back and of course it's from a set piece and I think you know one of the things that maybe was a little bit of an illustration of the season as we score from a really nicely designed low set piece because we haven't really got players who can head the ball but then the opposition chucks one in the area and we can't deal with it and they score I mean that's clearly just an area that enormously has to improve next season yeah I think maybe a few

28:26Jamie: things need to improve in terms of the set pieces obviously we're getting a new set piece coach because like I said like I think we do this like zone we don't do it like we play like this zonal set piece and it doesn't work for us like we don't have the aerial threats who can kind of hold the zone and then head the ball away so it's just falling into whoever's there and I think that's always going to be the tallest of the players when you're not playing like a man-to-man corner It's really interesting the way we defend set pieces. It really confuses me. But I think that maybe could be assessed, but also it is personnel.

28:53Jamie: Because like I said, if you're going to play that zonal, that's what Lyon do. They don't play man to man. And then Wendy Renner just head is at 40 yards the other way. So it is personnel, but I also think it's tactics. And if you're not going to improve or change your personnel, you do have to look at the tactics a bit differently. But yeah, again, but this was an end of season Blues goal. Like this was just, all right, whatever. Like let Liverpool do their thing. They're a very tall team. We know that. But yeah, interesting, again, like badly defended, but we just do not have the players for this, especially when someone like Lotta, Leah, Steph, they're not on the pitch.

29:25Yeah, and I think you could see in the second half we'd tailed off quite a bit. It was like last day of school vibes, really that second 45 minutes. And, you know, Beth comes off, that's twice Beth's come off on like the hour mark. I thought she might stay on longer for either one of these guys, just see if she could get a goal, quite frankly. but I do also think there's perhaps something in that in terms of Rene you know maybe what she's physically capable of with her kind of intensity or how much she's played this season but like you know she came off after an hour and then Steph Catley gets the last couple of minutes at centre-back great to see her back and Katie McCabe kind of goes off as well and you know quite surreal to have to tweet something like Beth Mead goes off for Arsenal for the final time Katie McCabe goes off for Arsenal at the final time.

30:18But, you know, nice that they got that ovation. But also the scenes at the end, I think, particularly with the departing players. Unfortunately, Manu wasn't there, I don't think. But, you know, with Pilova and Laia Kadina and Beth and Katie, really nice scenes at the end there. And it just feels quite surreal, doesn't it? that these players aren't going to be in our team next season?

30:46Jamie: Oh, it's weird. I actually don't think I'll realise it until I see them. Maybe sign for another club, but also play for another club. Until other fan bases are talking about this player as their own, I actually don't think I can comprehend it. So I'm sad. I was very sad. To be fair, after full time against Liverpool, full disclosure, I was very mad. I was angry, to be honest. I was watching Katie McCabe and I was thinking, this is just, what have we done? The handling of this, I was so angry. So I don't think I've gotten emotional yet until I listened to your interview with Katie McCabe last night, Tim, just before I was about to go to sleep.

31:18Jamie: So thank you a lot for that. But yeah, I don't think it'll sink in, Tim. I don't think it'll sink in Beth Mead and Katie McCabe in particular. That's weird. That's very weird. It is. It is. And it's weirder when you list out the squad numbers and you see the ones which are going free, like 5 and 9 and 11. And it's like, wow, different players are going to be wearing those shirts next season. I mean, just before we go to the break and get questions, I mean, that second place in the league, like I said, two points behind Manchester City, which just feels weird. It kind of feels like, you know, like in the kind of 1500 metres, you know, you get the runner on the outside lane and the inside lane and you can't quite see really like who's in the, well, you can see who's in the lead, but you don't really know until they come to the home straight.

32:06Like you can't get a sense of the distance. That's kind of like the whole second half of the season. It feels like we've been on the outside lane and not really been able to understand how close or how far away we are. I mean, I have several regrets about the league season. Chelsea have had a really bad one by their standards. Like we've scored a hell of a lot more goals than them. That kind of happened for a long, long time. Like even when I looked at, you know, our goal difference going into the final day and it's like, God, we went into the final day. 14 better goal difference like just much better in the league than Chelsea like Chelsea have had a real off year and we haven't capitalized on that and the other thing I think Jamie is like with Man City I could see some nerves I could see some nerves in some of those games that like that Liverpool game towards the end and we just couldn't put any pressure on them which which which is in and of itself quite disappointing I mean you know it's second place it's like not a disaster it's okay we're in the Champions League group stage but what's your kind of feeling on the league season overall?

33:19I'm annoyed yeah I think everyone is yeah yeah I think we're all kind of sharing a

33:24Jamie: little bit of anger because it's just annoying it's really annoying when you look at this game and you sorry when you look at this season and you look at the table and Manchester City's performances over the last couple of weeks, like a loss away to Brighton. Obviously, we drew to Brighton, but then a really narrow win to Liverpool where they were probably undeserving winners. Obviously, Arsenal only lose one game this season. Like that is just so painful. It's so painful. And you mentioned – I forgot about the Spurs draw. I'm thinking Aston Villa draw at the Emirates has killed us. I forgot about the Spurs draw.

33:56Jamie: Like there is – obviously, the Chelsea draw was frustrating because of the factors out of our hands. Yeah, that's just ridiculous, right? And the two United games are also games that really annoy me because I think had we played United the second time a month later, it's a very different team and it's a very different fixture. So that is also kind of like I can't be making excuses in that department, but just like a couple of weeks later, United have won one game in their last 10 consecutive fixtures. Like they've been poor, but we played them so early and usually we play them quite late in the season.

34:25Jamie: So that is frustrating. But, yeah, Spurs and Aston Villa, oh, my God, I will never recover from that. The Brighton one you can kind of take because they're on a really good run of form. They've made it to Wembley. They've really taken out some good teams recently. But the other ones are pretty unforgivable, Tim. And I think it's frustrating because if you'd told me at the start of the season, we'll finish above Chelsea for the first time since 2019's league title, I would have cried if you told me we weren't winning the league. So frustrated, Tim. But at least you can kind of say, maybe in a couple of months, I'll say, hey, there's positives to take because we're not losing big games.

34:56Jamie: But we need to get over the line in those other ones. Yeah, I mean, ultimately, it came down to that one defeat, though. like that that's the swing um you know city win three two it's our only defeat and that's the that wins the title um yeah i i just i really regret that kind of october november period where i think we got found out a bit and i think credit to renee and the coaching staff they turned that around and since like you know that period building up from christmas i think we've been really good largely but like it's just it's such a small league with so few games that like you can't you can't have four or five games where you get a few draws but I mean that actually that'll be interesting next season it's going to be four more league games so maybe you can get away with that a little bit more um in the future but I think what that amount of draws and you know only one defeat I think all that shows you is Arsenal are a really well coached team I think they largely do things right defensively.

35:59They've had the best defensive record in the league, but they just don't quite have enough firepower. They just don't quite have enough of those players who, when it comes down to it, will get you the goal that turns some of those draws into victories. And that's one of the things that kind of has to be fixed. And I guess signing the top scorer from the Bundesliga, however she fits in like that that's that's you know that's bringing goals into the team so i can see that but we've got the summer to talk about that um why don't we take a break there and we will come back in part two with your question submitted on blue sky right after this

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39:04okay welcome back to the arsenal women ask cast and askblog.com with tim stillman and jamie spanger kind of looking over um the 3-1 win at liverpool to close out the wsl season on saturday but you know taking a bit more of a thousand foot view of things and obviously quite a lot of stuff has happened in the last week um or so um gonna kick off with this question jamie um no we spoke a bit about set pieces i might come back to that one okay yeah so this i've actually written about this for the newsletter this week so i'm not going to talk on it because i've already written about it um and i'm not going to cannibalize that content i want you to read that so i'm just going to ask you this jamie this is from uh at sleepy wrr renee said she expects those staying on and the new signings to take on some of the qualities we'll be losing with the departures.

40:00Who do you think will step into the role of passion merchants for us next season? Any concern that we might be short on loud characters? I mean, Manu Zinsberger, Laia Kadina, Victoria Pilova, Beth Mead, Katie McCabe. Those are extroverted personalities and we're losing all of them. Does that concern you at all?

40:20Jamie: Yeah, this is an interesting question because I think from the outside, you're losing every single voice that you have on the pitch and that's fair enough. There's a lot of, and I think Arsenal have not had a shortage of those kind of players. And that's been really nice as a fan to be able to watch that. I think coming in, you need to look at who's incoming. Georgia Stanway is probably one of the most personality filled player in women's football. She's definitely not shy on the pitch and she's definitely a player that can kind of get into opposition, but also rile up a team. So yeah, in terms of a replacement, I think we're bringing in a player, maybe no one's Katie McCabe, but the closest to Katie McCabe that you can get in that kind of profile.

40:57Jamie: I haven't actually watched a lot of Geraldine Reutella for club but I've watched a lot of earth country and she does also seem like one of those players you're bringing in a personality maybe level to pull over but maybe a little bit more extroverted where she's like she's a personality player and sometimes personality players worry me in form because you don't you don't always get a reliable form out of them but again like if we're just solely speaking about personality I think that's there but I do think this player players in the squad that it will certainly step up and I'm looking at players like Olivia Smith and Chloe Kelly in particular, like those are the players that I think can take this team by the scruff of the neck and get a result.

41:32Jamie: And it's not just like yelling loudly. It's like example on the pitch. And I think we've seen from Olivia Smith this season, this is a player I think, I know she's a winger and she's kind of that like isolated personality. I think she will wear like the armband at one stage of her Arsenal career later in it. I just think she's a player that's really, really like willing to take the responsibility at such a young age. She does the role that Renee wants to do. And yeah, she just, she puts in everything. So, Tim, I'm kind of in the middle because I do think there's a big concern for losing personality and I empathize with that.

42:00Jamie: I think we're getting in some supplementary personality though and I'm really looking at Georgia Stanway to fill those boots because she has for every team that she's played for. Even like just going to Germany, not speaking like a German. She's like made a move that not many Lionesses have made before going to the Bundesliga. It's a new venture. She said, let's do it. Won everything there is to win in Germany and really like taking it in her stride. I think this is a player that's going to be really, really good at kind of replicating that. Yeah. Stand by for the newsletter for my thoughts on that.

42:31Do you have a question for me?

42:32Jamie: This is an interesting one, Tim. I'm interested to hear what you say. This is from At Ribbon Listener. Arsenal's average possession in the league has gone down from 62.4 % last season to 59 % this season. Is this due to other teams improving, our personnel, our decision to go more direct, or all three? Obviously, it's a minimal difference, Tim, but I think it is an overarching theme that we are holding the ball a little bit less. What do you make of that? Yeah, definitely. So I think it's a little bit the quality of the league coming up. So, for example, when you play Brighton now, you might not even get 50 % of the ball, quite frankly.

43:08And some of those teams, I think particularly in the first half of the season, really do possess the ball a lot more. I think the league, now what tends to happen is the team that finishes bottom tends to finish bottom by quite a distance, so Palace, Leicester, and they're your 5-4-1, we don't want the ball teams. Everyone else wants the ball. The team that finished second bottom are managed by Gareth Taylor, so they want the ball. And I think largely everyone wants that, so I think it is probably a league-wide shift. I do also think that if we cast our minds back to that period we were talking about in October-November when we were kind of drawing games or very unconvincingly squeezing past Brighton at home, one of the things we talked about a lot was ball progression without Lear.

44:00and I think it was that Brighton game, there was clearly, they'd been told, like, stop passing the ball backwards. Stop it. Because against Aston Villa, for example, we kept passing the ball backwards. And I remember asking Renee about it after the game and she was like, yeah, we did discuss that. We talked about, like, stop going back to the goalkeeper every 30 seconds. So I think there's an element to which she has asked for a bit more risk in possession as well, which will bring your possession count down because you will give the ball away a little bit more. But if you look at that period, I'd have to look into the stats in greater detail about what perhaps our possession looked like at that point and what it looked like afterwards.

44:51I wouldn't mind betting that in a lot of those games we were drawing in October and November we had really high possession but we just weren't doing anything with it. So I think a lot of whereas that stopped like quite quickly and then from December onwards we start scoring goals again. So I suspect a lot of it is to do with trying to turn the risk dial a little bit more and just losing the ball a bit more in doing it. What do you reckon?

45:19Jamie: Yeah, I think all those are valid points. I think the biggest one for me is just the opposition. The league's changing. Teams are playing different football. Like we've seen that evolve all season. Like you're looking at a Spurs team under Martin Ho now. They keep the ball. They play out from the back. They're not just bombing along to their wings and hoping to attack. Wow, that was like slam poetry. I'm really hitting my peak at the end of this season. Aston Villa, I agree. Natalia Arroyo doesn't want to play that brand of football. I think the biggest point you've made is like the bottom teams, like Liverpool's are not, they're keeping the ball.

45:48Jamie: Like the Everton's have always kept the ball under Brian Sorensen, but these teams want to play football now. And I think that Arsenal are just, there's less of a gap from the top. Like even if the top three is pretty solid, there's less of a gap in terms of the way they play football. And I agree. I think Arsenal, they're dialing the wrist dial down. That is what you said. And that is exactly what I think. They're just playing football that I think is suiting the opposition a little bit better. And I think that's also a praise to Rene because there were so many instances, Tim, when we were watching this Jonas Eideval era, this Joe Montemurier era, and it was like, no, this is the brand of football we're playing.

46:19Jamie: Like, too bad. And if we don't score, we're just going to knock on the same door for the last 30 minutes of the game and give our fans headaches. Rene's actually really good at, like, adapting to what the opposition want to do, and maybe that has something to do with it as well. So I think tactically, like, this is probably the most impressed I've been from a league campaign, but it's just, like, the bite is what I think Arsenal are missing. That final action is what Arsenal are missing. So in terms of possession, I don't think it's a bad thing at all. And yeah, there's plenty of reasons as we've just highlighted for five minutes.

46:46Yeah, I mean, it happened when we went from Joe to Jonas, like in Joe's last season, actually the possession started going up because teams were just like, we're just going to sit off and just let you pass it around. And then Jonas came in and the possession went down because he was more willing to lose the ball, basically. And I think there's probably been a little bit of a tweak there. How about this one then? again focuses on the departing players and I think it's a really interesting question kind of split into two from Nishant Gunner 10 out of all the players leaving at the end of the season who do you think will be missed the most A by the team tactically and B by the fans might be the same player but

47:33Jamie: tactically Katie McCabe yeah agree obviously by the fans kate mccabe probably i don't think i'd say i don't even know if i need to explain myself i just think versatile player that does everything and yeah i think the fans you could tell it was just extra special on on saturday and those are the traveling fans it's just you're swapping loyalty for loyalty and that was a nice mutual exchange so yeah i might go mccabe across the board yeah yeah i i think um it's an interesting one i i agree tactically there's not i mean like Ultimately, Beth became a kind of rotation player. Katie was still playing every game and in different positions.

48:12So I think it's quite obvious. I think that Katie is our most tactically intelligent player in the squad. So, you know, probably with Russo and Mariana. But then by the fans, it depends because you could say Beth could easily win that argument based on the end product. although the end product has probably drifted a little bit this season um and but like i think what katie introduces as well is just a lot of energy into a game like beth does that as well beth beth will do that with like a goal or a cross or something katie will do it with a tackle or something like that um and they both introduce energy that way so i i definitely say by the team it's Katie by the fans I think you could split the difference between Beth and Katie really do

49:06Jamie: you have a question I do this one is also about the departures this is from at ndmw first 60 of this game exemplified how key Meade and McCabe have been to AWFC's default attacking patterns over the years for example combination passes with Fox down the right runs and feeding balls down the left wing set piece routines any thoughts on how this may evolve following a squad refresh yeah that that is a really good question i kind of think with beth we got there already to be honest in terms of i think if everyone is absolutely 100 fit i think olivia smith is definitely one of the starting wingers i kind of think chloe kelly probably would be the other one she has just been a write-off of a season for her fitness wise um the other ones probably a bit more interchangeable depending on what you want and what you need between Chloe, Beth and Caitlin.

50:01But I feel like, because like Jonas Eideval's Arsenal, that was Beth. That was like, Beth was the identity and the reference point of that team. Jonas's football really suited her. She was in the absolute prime of her career. And like that isn't, hasn't been the case under Rene, which is not to say she still hasn't been a really important player but she perhaps it's you know it's funny it kind of reminds me of um it reminds me a little bit of martin odegaard maybe in the men's team where until this season it was like you're playing every second of every game you define this team and actually now he's fallen a bit more into her like sometimes as a play sometimes you play So I think with Beth, she's become less defining in the way that she plays.

50:52So I kind of think that process is already underway with Katie less so because she's just been in the team the whole season. And how do we operate without that? But I think a lot of partnerships have kind of broken up or reduced slightly seamlessly. We talked a lot about Frieda and Steiner. and actually that doesn't happen very often anymore because it's Russo that starts behind Steiner and we talked a lot about Steph Catley at left back and Caitlin Ford on the left wing as a partnership and actually that doesn't happen anymore and it's just kind of, I do think these things are a bit more interchangeable.

51:32For me, there's definitely a question over Katie because she can do everything as a fullback but then like Onabache is probably going to come in and she's pretty good. She's okay, I think. And for me, the partnerships question is more about midfield because it's Mariana and Kim Little and if one of those comes out, oh my God, we look different and that can't continue. And so that's where, because the identity of this team is Mariana and Kim Little and Russo, I think those are the players that really define it. And we can't have another season and we won't have another season, I don't think, where Mariana and Kim Little are like, you have to play all the time because you've got the secret sauce for how the central midfield works and no one else has got it.

52:27So sorry, you have to keep playing. Whereas the central midfield is going to have to evolve a little bit. And I think, I know this is what Rene wants. It's got to be a bit more. Some weeks it will be these two. some weeks it might be these two with this player ahead of them so like you were talking about Mariana earlier I think next season she'll play just a guess I think she'll play eight and ten quite a bit and I think probably Georgia Stanway will play six and eight quite a bit and I think Reutel will probably play everywhere so for me I'm much more focused on how that central area of the team works.

53:05I think that's where the new partnerships will really kind of come into things. What do you think on that one?

53:13Jamie: Yeah, I think when we're talking about outgoings, it is just Katie McCabe. I agree. I think Beth Mead had a massive role to play in this season. I still think that her role in this Arsenal team is undervalued, just in what she does across the board. But I also think that, like you said, Arsenal have evolved to look at Olivia Smith as the starting winger and the winger for hopefully the next decade of her career. So that's something I'm less concerned about. And I think that attackers are quite instinctive and you can get in a player that knows how to play a system quite quickly. With Katie McCabe, obviously, like you can't take a player out of your team like that and not expect there to be a little bit of a gap.

53:47Jamie: And I think no matter how good Ana Bacier is, you're losing a player that will always be at a consistent level. She won't be really, really good and then really, really bad. She'll just always do the job. I'm hoping Ana Bacier comes in like Emily Fox did and just doesn't miss a beat because that was pretty remarkable mid-season mind you as well I hope we have another Emily Fox on our hands and obviously we know how good Ana is but I actually I don't know how consistent she is because I don't watch her enough for Barcelona so I'm interested to see how that is obviously for Manchester United we saw how consistent she was but that was a I think the league was just a different kettle of fish back then so I'm not I'm not taking that with a lot so yeah I agree with you Tim I think the midfield is the area of concern this season the area of concern next season and what can we do to make sure that no no outgoings kind of impact that as well because it must be said Meade and McKay both come centrally as well how do we replace that in the midfield and how do we replace the kind of burden and responsibility that they have when they're inverting and going up the wing so yeah it'll be interesting to see I just think we don't have to worry too much it will be an interesting era but they've got a big summer ahead so yeah I'm really sad about McKay of Tim well how about this one then and um we like we spoke a bit about caitlin ford last week and what she does bring maybe what she doesn't bring enough um so i think this is like a good way of framing this question it's from calum at uh c tindall um i know there are other qualities she brings to the team but with ford's decline in attacking output is it not potentially just as much of a risk to keep her for next season as it is to have to integrate another new player um that we know no longer has a future at the club i mean this is this is a very very live discussion um online um it's a slightly difficult one i'm gonna make a slight plea here um i've been hiding a lot of there's i think what's kind of happening and this happens sometimes and i'm not like trying to police this too much because i'm a fan as well and i know i've talked a lot of shit about like players on the men's team and stuff like that um so i'm not trying to police like the conversation too much but i do think sometimes like fans can get after a player a bit and it can be very like every single thing they do is rubbish you know and you start and to your point earlier about like you get to know a player you know familiarity breeds contempt and all of that and sometimes people just get bored of players who've been around for a little while um i've been hiding a lot of um replies about caitlin on Twitter and it's not because I'm trying to police people or anything like that.

56:27Caitlin's mum follows me and, you know, I think she's relatively active on there. And it's just, it's just like, you know what I mean? It's like, I don't know that she like looks at my mentions or anything like that, but it's like, you know, she interacts with my tweets sometimes. There's just a chance she could be reading it. so like I'm not saying don't criticize the player but but but please just be a little bit like a little bit circumspect about how you phrase some of it but it's it's a live discussion so we should discuss it but what about like Callum's framing of that question how much of a risk is it of keeping her because we we know like the club kind of we're a bit like we kind of want to keep one and lose one of the wingers do we just rip the band-aid off and just do both like do you think it's a risk

57:16Jamie: keeping her essentially yeah I don't want to be like this podcaster that just like tells the fans how to feel because I think sometimes football podcasts can be like that and the fans can feel how they want to feel I completely agree it needs to remain in the realm of respect and it sometimes doesn't and I also think I like deleted Twitter for like many weeks because it's just you log on and she's like constant flows of negativity and it's like this is not what being a football fan should be about, especially a team like Arsenal. Like, we're not exactly Everton women. Like, it's – and I do think you need to – yeah, Liverpool.

57:49Jamie: That could be a lot worse. Like, it's – that would be a lot worse. So, I do think, like, it needs to – there's a lot of respect that's been lost between a player that has been a longstanding servant of the club, and it's – she's not going onto the pitch and taking her shirt off and throwing it on the ground like Granit Xhaka, and I love him. But, like, it's – I do think there needs to be a respect that's, like, regained within that relationship. It's very odd because I agree it has been a scapegoat. And I'm not saying she's like, she's not, she's been amazing. Like that's not what I'm saying, but the respect has been lost.

58:17Jamie: And that's something that I think as fans, we need to be a lot better. Like we need to be better in that respect. In terms of the replacing her, again, I think it's very easy to say Beth Mead will upgrade on Beth Mead, will upgrade on Caitlin Ford. Like, but I, I also think there's an element of a team where like we're not playing FIFA ultimate team and there does need to be a regard for team dynamics. how do you implicate a system do you need a player for one more year like if we're signing caitlin ford on a one-year extension i'm not going to be totally disgruntled by it because you have a player that knows the system she can take you over the line in a big summer of movement right and it's not saying that if we lose a game the reason is going to be because we didn't upgrade caitlin ford if we lose the league next season i don't think it's going to be because we extended caitlin ford and i i'm not flying her flag and saying she should stay because i i don't think her output's good enough and i think her work rate is replaceable and that is the stance i have and I would have preferred to upgrade on Caitlin Ford than Beth Mead, but I do think it's just circumstances for Beth Mead that aren't there for Caitlin Ford and it's completely fair enough.

59:15Jamie: So I do see what fans are saying, but I don't think it's actually a healthy thing for teams to have that turnover in the same position and you're relying on Chloe Kelly like this season, always injured, like a really hard season for her personally. You can't rely on Olivia Smith this early in her career all the time. I understand wanting to like replicate a system with a player that you know for one more year. If it is a two-year extension, that's when I'm kind of getting annoyed about it. Although if you want to sell her, you want to sell her, fair enough. I don't really know like what the club are trying to aim to do there.

59:46Jamie: So I think that I have, I see what the club are doing is what I'm trying to say. I wouldn't do it myself. And I want fans to realize that just because I'm Australian doesn't mean I think Caitlin Ford's the best winger in the world. And I think a lot of people on social media seem to think that. I don't think that, I think she's been one of our worst performing players this season. I don't think she's been good enough. And I would replace her. I would upgrade her, Tim. but I can see why the club are doing what they're doing. So in short, I'm worried about the output and I wouldn't extend her. But again, I can see why they are for this summer when there's so many big personalities leaving the pitch.

1:00:19Yeah, I don't think it's life-changing either way, if I'm honest. That's how I probably feel about it. Should we do one more each if you've got one for me? Yeah, let's do it. I've got another one I think is worth asking.

1:00:34Jamie: I'd like to know who you think in the current squad in this in this question Tim because we've spoken about Alessia Russo but at Sarah JK official has asked as we look ahead to the next season which players do you think will rise to the challenge and fill the void left by departing team leaders both on and off the pitch yeah I'd add to I think you're right to mention Georgia Stanway like coming in on a bar chase like played for Manchester United and Barcelona and Spain like I'm going to assume she has leadership qualities. Geraldine Reuteler was a vice captain at Frankfurt this season. I don't know where she is in the Swiss national team leadership group because I just assume that Leo Valti is the captain and that's it.

1:01:17They don't really need anything else. But the player I'd look at is Emily Fox. um actually she's i think she's gonna be 27 in the summer really hopeful that she'll sign a new contract as well like she's i mean she's literally the same age as as russo they were like they kind of went to school together um i i really see her as part of that equation definitely um you know not not necessarily in the leadership group directly but someone who's kind of working towards that um a little bit I'd say the same about Daphna Van Domsala um it's been a bit of an odd season for her a little bit defined by injury I think but also like slightly inconsistent I don't know if that is just purely physical but I I kind of look at Daphna and think this time last year I thought you might be the best goalkeeper in the world and I kind of this time next year I want to be thinking and saying that again you know um so and and she's another one who like potential wise could be our goalkeeper for like seven eight years and therefore I think should be thinking about you know kind of moving into that um a little bit so yeah I kind of I kind of think those players I think they're like really core important players but who are kind of are and aren't leaders like into like mariana's like a technical leader of the team right i don't think she's like a a leader in a person sense but she's a leader in a give me the ball and everyone just goes yeah we'll just give mariana mariana the ball won't we that's fine um but you know i don't see her as like a cajoler of people or anything like that um and emily fox is kind of the main one i i a little sidebar of van domselaar um you know just in terms of like let's let's be having that conversation again next season about what an amazing world-class goalkeeper you are because this season probably a bit like chloe kelly like a little bit of a write-off um for her i think so i i think that's where my kind of eye goes the most um yeah did you have anyone to add i know you kind of answered that question

1:03:34Jamie: yeah i won't add add a name i think on the dafna one though it's an important one to like to recognize. I think that's a really good point. A couple of seasons ago when she first signed Tim, I think it was Miu and maybe it was Helen Jerome did like a sit down interview with Daphna and she was so quiet and like shy. But the way that she reads the game is she's very level headed in her analysis and she's quite mature. And I think when you're looking at kind of those René Slager's types of captains, she's someone that doesn't have to be wearing the armband, but I think she has a lot to say in how she leads the team.

1:04:04Jamie: And yeah, there's a big input for her there. So yeah, I like the definite fandom, so I'll shout from you. Yeah, hopefully a bit of Manu kind of rubs off on her. By the way, Manu Zinsperger, like, I don't know what she's going to do next or where she's going to go, but, you know, I could see her doing a Jake Humphrey-type podcast. I really could. Like, her speech on the pitch, like, she was very much like, she took the microphone. Like, it did not have to be handed to her. She took it, and she speaks really, really well. And yeah, she's going to be a hell of a motivational speaker or podcast host, I think.

1:04:41Let's close out with this one. So I think this is a really interesting question because it focuses on like quantity and number. But it's from Michael at Micah1, etc. So that the one looks like an L, you know, you get very clever, Michael. It says you've talked all season about the necessity of squad turnover this summer. Do you think the announced outgoings are sufficient? so so i i think this is kind of a numbers question so that's you know that's like katie mckay beth mead manu zinsberger victoria pulova laia kadina it's like no me williams no no me williams but like she never played hadn't no disrespect to no respect on her name yeah yeah yeah but i mean she literally never played um a senior game so like that's five senior players leaving and we have i think everyone's been talking about it for the last two years 18 months in terms of turnover you know because it could have been more it could have been seven eight something like that like I guess how do you feel about that that as a as a number like let's say the five players leaving but then like Kim Little sign a new contract Steph Catley sign a new contract Leah Williamson sign a new contract and Caitlin Ford is, my information at the moment, is that she will sign a new contract pretty certainly.

1:06:06So I guess how does that fit? That's kind of like four retained, five out. Like was that what you were expecting numbers-wise?

1:06:14Jamie: Yeah, well, I just think it's so hard to look at these things as purely numbers because you want the big turnover, okay, but then you look at the players we've retained. tell me you wouldn't re-sign Kim Little or like Leah Williamson. I think people are up in the air about Steph Kelly, but she's been our most consistent centre-back for two years now. Like I wouldn't, yeah, I wouldn't be, you know what I mean? You have to look at the players. I think it's silly to just look at it as a numbers game and you look at the players that are outgoing. And if you want turnover, you've gotten turnover in terms of big-name players.

1:06:44Jamie: We're not just getting rid of squad players. We're getting rid of starting players. So I 100 % think that, yeah, like who else do you want to go? and I know let's not open up the can of worms about Caitlin Ford again, but there are maybe other players that I think you could upgrade on. I have made my position very clear on Freedom Ornam. I'm still in the grey area, but I still think she has a place in this squad and she has a role to play. So if you're looking at those fringe players, I still would keep them. So in terms of turnover, I think it's a fine number. However, the incomings need to upgrade the squad.

1:07:13Jamie: It's not a numbers thing for me. It's like a quality thing. You need to then upgrade the players that are coming in. So, yeah, I'm not really concerned with counting them, but I am concerned with the fact that I think that the turnover is still big and it's going to make for a big summer if Arsenal do it correctly. But in saying that, Tim, not to beat the dead horse, but again, like the, oh, we're going to, we've, we've seen a vision with Katie McCabe that she can play centre back. I think that kind of just sums up how we are in the recruitment room and how complacent we can be. So I'm not saying, oh, it's fine because we're going to upgrade all these players because I completely agree with all fans.

1:07:44Jamie: I'm in there that I'm a bit nervous that that's not going to happen, but we'll see. in terms of numbers, I'm not really concerned with it. Yeah, it's kind of what I expected, I think, maybe numerically. You can't Logan's run it and just get rid of every player who's like 29 or older. You do need that kind of core of experience. It's about a balance in a squad. And our squad had fallen out of balance. It was too old. But rebalancing it doesn't mean getting rid of every experienced player that you have. And there are a couple. And, you know, I'm fairly comfortable with the reporting we've done in terms of, like I think I'd said on this podcast a few times, a few months ago, some of them are going to be contingent on the market, like what they think is and isn't there.

1:08:32And I think it's clear to see with what they've done with the wingers. They perhaps think it would be difficult to sign two really good wingers this summer as opposed to one. So, yeah, I fully expected Steph Catley to stay. I'm glad she's staying. I expected Kim to stay. I think everyone would have been in floods of tears if Leah Williamson hadn't. So I'm largely comfortable with it. I do think that the Caitlin one seems to be the one that's preoccupying people the most. But we'll see with that. Shall we leave it there, Jamie?

1:09:08Jamie: Let's leave it there. What a season. Yeah, absolutely. And what we will do is probably at some point next week, we'll do like a proper season review podcast. We'll do like player of the season, goal of the season, get into the nuts and bolts of things a little bit. We will keep the podcast going during the summer. It probably won't be quite weekly, but we'll mix them up a little bit. We'll do kind of episodes as and when things happen that are worth talking about. We'll do mailbag episodes. So yeah, probably roughly fortnightly, I think, during the summer, particularly in the absence of a big international tournament as well.

1:09:45So we'll keep things rolling. Thanks as ever for joining us. Hope you enjoyed the little kind of Easter egg in there of the interview with Katie McCabe. And we will speak to you probably next week with a bit of a season review podcast. So until then, thanks so much for joining us and we'll speak to you very soon.

1:10:39We'll be right back. Lowe's. Valid for$527. While supplies last, selection varies by location. See associate or lowes.com for details.