Champions League final preview podcast: Arsenal v PSG

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0:58We'll be right back.

1:10Hello and welcome to a Champions League final preview podcast. Typically our preview podcasts are exclusive to everybody on Patreon, our Patreon subscribers, but because of the occasion, we have to make this available to everybody. And as ever, joining me to look ahead to what is a massive game is Lewis Ambrose. Lewis, good afternoon to you. Good afternoon, Andrew. Good afternoon to you in Budapest. Yes, I am in Budapest. There's no question about that. It's, yeah, it's a hell of a place, a hell of a city, I have to say. I've enjoyed it. I'm here a little over 24 hours and I'm, I don't know if smitten is the right word, but it might be the occasion, might be the weather.

1:56It's a beautiful, beautiful place, I have to say. I imagine the occasion helps. The occasion and the week that we've all had, you've sort of floated on into Central Europe and it would take some weather for you to have a bad time, I would say. Yes. Well, I remember the last time we got to a Champions League final in 2006 and I'm sure many Arsenal fans will remember coming out of that stadium and being rained on by the heavens opened and absolutely drenched us because we couldn't get a taxi. We made the mistake of getting off our train, myself and my friend, Swedish Chris. We got off our train, I don't know why, about two or three stops before we were supposed to.

2:47This was pre-Google Maps, of course. There was no such thing as a smartphone. So you're like, where are we? Let's try and get a taxi. And I can tell you something. Sometimes, and maybe with justification, I don't know, Parisians have been, I don't know, they might say they can tend to be a little rude from time to time. It has been said. I've certainly heard that before. I've heard that before. in my experience apart from one guy i met at the eiffel tower many years ago who refused to speak to me um but absolutely would speak english to my wife um i've had good experiences i can tell you though parisian taxi drivers in 2006 were not at all inclined to stop for bedraggled young men wearing Arsenal yellow shirts.

3:42You put your hand up, they go, oh, and then they go, ah, no, fuck you. So we ended up walking back. The weather this time, I think, is going to be a lot better, and I hope, of course, that the outcome is a lot better. Maybe it's just tied to the weather that we're having. Yeah, hey, fingers crossed. The absence of pathetic fallacy would be lovely this weekend. Yeah, I mean, so you're out there in Budapest. clearly the cities you've taken taken to the city yeah like a doctor how's the atmosphere they're beginning to proliferate i will say when i got here yesterday it wasn't quite the same there were a few here and there there were a lot of people out on my flight from dublin obviously a load of arsenal fans on the flight out from from dublin but in terms of sort of overall numbers you can really start to see it now in the street you're passing people all the time and you're going come on you know giving them the old nod or whatever it might be high fives and all that kind of stuff that's starting to happen now where you you literally can't walk down a street without seeing arsenal fans there are some psg fans here as well uh i saw a sign uh there's a up the road from where my hotel is there's a i guess you would call like a nursery and I don't mean for children I mean for for plants um it's a big open air kind of nursery um and someone has written uh PSG forever fuck Arsenal on the side of the thing you know but that tells you what kind of low-ranked characters we're dealing with here the Arsenal fans are are in good voice I met some of the boys from Red Action just ran into them randomly on the street here uh i walked out this morning uh having returned to my hotel much later than i had anticipated because of elliot smith doing his karaoke um for yeah i thought he might do one song i'm an idiot i i've seen that man not karaoke but i've seen that man with a microphone in his hand and he loves to sing starts coming out you can't stop him he loves to sing so it was it was a late night, I will say.

5:59It was a late night and made a little bit later by a completely unnecessary bourbon at about half one, quarters to two. But I got up this morning, woke up this morning, went out and got coffee, came back, disciplined man that I am. I did my blog. I sat down and wrote the blog. And then I said, you know what, I'll go out and I'll wander the streets of Budapest, just see where I am, see what it looks like in the day, in the daytime. I go down to the main street at the end of where I'm staying and there's a barber shop and it's decked out in Arsenal livery. Like they've decided to go all in on Arsenal.

6:38Like the people working there are all wearing Arsenal shirts. The barber's chairs have Arsenal shirts, uh, like on top of them. Are they expecting Arsenal fans to arrive in Budapest and then be like, oh actually i would like to look a little bit sharper ahead of the final i know two two chaps who arrived here yesterday got themselves a fresh trim for the final and i will the other thing to say is that like this might be a generalization and there's a lot more to this city than uh than what i'm about to say right there's a lot more it's it's beautiful it's giving me barcelona vibes in the center, these kind of cool buildings and small alleyways and stuff like that.

7:19It's really continental in the bits that I've been in. But if you were going somewhere and top of your list of things you wanted were one, a haircut or a beard trim or whatever, or two, a kebab, you are in the fucking, the city that never sleeps, the city that gives you all of those choices. it is unbelievable how many barbers there are and how many kebab shops there are and please anyone from hungary i'm not i'm not uh being critical i think this is wonderful it's not a cliche or stereotype but they're everywhere it's incredible i don't see i don't see anyone taking issue with that like what who doesn't love a fresh haircut yeah well i wish i wish yeah who once upon a time yes and and who doesn't love tucking into a kebab absolutely so this is you know it's all i maybe wouldn't pair the two i feel like if you're if you're having a kebab you've done things before the kebab that you shouldn't be deciding to get a haircut in that same moment i get you but you know the haircut then maybe a few hours of enjoyment and then a kebab perfect this sounds It's like a really good, well, Friday evening for any Arsenal fans wondering what to do with their afternoon, evening as they arrive in Budapest.

8:43Yeah. There you go. Perfect. There you go. And listen, the atmosphere really is building. Go on. I flew into Stansted this morning. Oh, yeah. Torched the final here in London with friends and family and plenty of Arsenal shirts in departures and arrivals. I imagine people doing similar to me who maybe don't live as close as they once did, flying in to be with friends and family, maybe be at the stadium tomorrow. Who knows? 35 ,000 people at the stadium too tomorrow afternoon. And of course, plenty of Arsenal fans and Arsenal shirts and champion shirts and caps and all of that stuff walking through, walking into the airport as I walked out, which was very, very nice to see.

9:27and just keep that good mood, that good feeling going. Absolutely. And there are people coming from all over in all kinds of ways. I'm lucky that I had direct flights from Dublin to Budapest, but I've got friends who are flying to Vienna and getting trains to Vienna, people going to Poland and driving from Poland, people going everywhere and then taking trains. However they're going to get here, they're going to get here. It's amazing. But also I think that draw of home is big as well, right? because of the occasion, because of how big a game this is, you know, for you, it's like, I need to get back home and watch this.

10:04Like, it's nice to watch it. Yeah. It'd be nice to watch it. There were two places for me that I could watch this, you know, a Champions League final, potentially our first ever Champions League win, and I could watch it in Budapest and with you. And if I weren't going to be in Budapest, then the only other place I could watch that and experience that happening is, you know, with my nearest and dearest that I've grown up, watching Arsenal with. It's hard to imagine, you know, that final whistle goes tomorrow and I'm not with them somewhere or another. I'm not with them to embrace and celebrate together.

10:40So, yeah, I'm sure I'm not the only person who's made a trip like that further away from Budapest than I was this morning. That's true, yeah. To be in an area of the world that's going to be even more decked out in red and white than that barbershop. I mean, it is such an occasion. To be here for the parade as well. Of course. Yeah. The parade on Sunday, which, you know, I won't be at, uh, I'm in Budapest until Monday and I, I wouldn't do well with a parade. That's all I'm saying. I'm not great with crowds. Generally, like at a football game, I can deal with it. But if it was like 500 ,000, a million people on the streets, I just need to escape a little bit, but like more power to anyone who's going to enjoy that.

11:20But I think the occasion is such that, you know, I tried to find someone, anyone to do the live blog on Saturday evening. And it's like, you know, everyone's going somewhere. Everyone's going to be somewhere. Everyone's going to be with their friends. They're going to be watching in a bar or watching with family or whatever it is. And, you know, I apologize in advance for the lack of site coverage, but this is a rare occasion, right? This is not a normal game. And I think it's, I think it's just such an interesting aspect of this is that I'm sitting here talking to you on friday afternoon we're playing a champions league final tomorrow i don't think i expected to be as relaxed as i am and i don't know how you feel so you can tell me how you feel now in a minute what has happened in the last sort of 10 days right since last Tuesday week when we knew we'd won the title the way it has I don't know it's it's hard to really explain what it's done to my nervous system or what it's done to my my core my sense of well-being my sense of of calm and you know I'm not really a highly strong person but over the course of this season I've had some moments and some experiences like many people listening to this i'm sure where i have felt like i'm at the end of my tether and and to to win it and to sort of do away with all that to to then be able to like just what 24 hours a little over 24 hours away from the champions league final to sit here and be like yeah i'm feeling good i'm feeling happy i'm feeling confident um it's so informed by that Premier League win and what it has meant to all of us.

13:11And I love it. I fucking love it, I have to say. I love the fact that we'll talk about it, obviously. You know, the idea that this might be an all-or-nothing game is terrifying or would have been terrifying, but it's not an all-or-nothing game. And it doesn't mean that the game doesn't have pressure or it's not a very important game. Of course it is. But that removing, stripping away that sense of like, oh, if this doesn't happen, then fuck. You know what I mean? I just feel very chilled and actually confident about the game. We've already won. Whatever happens, we've already won. Not tomorrow.

13:53Not tomorrow, but we've already won. We won the league. And we've been waiting so long for that release and the joy that's come with it, like you say, those last 10 days. I don't think the way you're feeling is going to be unusual or uncommon amongst people listening. I certainly relate. I feel like everyone I've spoken to this week, at some point, we're talking about, oh, did you see this on the celebrations? Did you see this from the top of the lift? And, oh, did you see this photo? Whatever. And then at some point, we come to the Champions League final. And I've just arrived here and I've been speaking to my dad and my brother who's got here as well and speaking to friends over the past week.

14:39And at some point, you know, the Champions League final comes up and everybody I've spoken to goes, oh, yeah, that'd be nice. But like here we are on Friday afternoon and we've not played a game that mattered for almost two weeks now. That's mad, yeah. And I've not thought about the Champions League final at all. Like, I've obviously thought about it. Sure, but it's not been all-consuming. I really haven't. And before we play the league this season, one game ends and the next five days I do nothing but think. I've done nothing but think about the next game or when Man City are playing next and who they're playing against and what might happen.

15:25And I have not really thought that much. and not with that depth and not with that, that, that sense of trepidation and concern around this game at all, because, because we've already won. We've, we've been celebrating for 10 days. We're going to celebrate again on Sunday. I've worn an Arsenal shirt, a different Arsenal shirt every day for the last 10 days. We're walking down the street or been sat in a beer garden or wherever at the park with my two year old child, uh, in Berlin every day for the past 10 days or so. Yeah. And every day somebody has said something to me. Somebody, sometimes somebody that I sort of know a little bit, you know, another parent from the nursery, will see me and say, oh, yeah, congratulations.

16:16But often just, you know, just a person walking down the street going like, oh, well done. Do you think they'll beat PSG? And on Sunday after the celebrations against Crystal Palace, just sat in a beer garden and a couple of German fellas on the table next to us what what are you doing here and we were like well we live here and our words probably weren't as clear as that at the time just stumbling through sure however much we'd uh enjoyed over the course of the day but we're like well we live here and they were like oh and then just started congratulating us and and saying well done talking about the season yeah yeah the weight the 22 years of waiting for it And it's like, you know, I feel like this parade has already lasted.

16:59The parade that comes after this final has already been going on since last Tuesday. It's the third parade, basically. It's like the party on Tuesday, the post-Selhurst Park, and now it's another one. And that parade will happen. And it's still not enough. Had we not won the league, that parade would happen whether it will happen now, whether we'll win the Champions League or not. Had we not won the league, everything would be on this. Everything. Saving the season. having something to celebrate you and I have spoken about it at times this season that you know it feels completely insane to say and there were times I was reluctant to say it but we've said it on some of these preview podcasts you said it again to James the other day there were times this season where I thought if we win the champ if we don't win the league and then win the Champions League a week after the season ends I'm going to be furious all summer long I'm going to be upset that we didn't win the league and now you flip it we've won the league because we've been in this four-year title race it feels like we've won the league and I'm kind of thinking yeah well this team will win the Champions League one day if they'll win it next year well PSG are really good maybe we won't win it and now we'll just win it next year it's fine it'll be fine yeah it's great it's it's such a good feel I can't imagine going into this game with a better feeling than this.

18:19No, I agree. I agree. It doesn't really feel like there's much. And there is. There's so much. There's something this club's never achieved before in its history. But it really doesn't feel like there's that much on the line. And that is an incredible place for us. And I think for the players too, to be able to enter this final. No, I agree. I agree. And hey, PSG, if you don't win the Champions League, your whole season's for nothing. It is the only thing. Same as Bayern Munich. it is the only thing you can actually win we don't have that we don't carry that into into tomorrow night's game and I already thought when we hadn't won the league I already thought that the talk of PSG kind of being heavy favorites was overblown and to be honest I see this as a sort of a 50-50 game but I see this as a 50-50 game that we go on to with nothing to lose more or less and they go into and their whole season is defined by what happens tomorrow evening well that's exactly it because you know you're talking about the competitiveness of the league and what we have to contend with in the premier league versus you know with all due respect to liga and and the bundesliga who wins it every year it's byron or it's psg with an occasional blip if you can call it that if that blip happens there's no leverkusen won the bundesliga two years ago right they went unbeaten they went unbeaten they won the cup in germany and they got to the europa league final and didn't lose a single game on their way to the europa league final as well they they came within one game and an adamola look manhattrick of an unbeaten treble and the noise in germany around bayern munich that year was that it was a disgrace thomas tuchel was sacked with weeks of the season remaining and it was a disgrace that somebody else could possibly win the league that is that's not oh there's the odd off season where someone else you know comes in and maybe still is the league we're talking about one of the greatest seasons in German football history delivered by a different club and it was outrageous to anyone associated with Bayern Munich that that was enough to pip them to the title uh you know it's your whole like you say the whole season is judged it's measured this is the yardstick do you win the Champions League yes okay great we achieved something do you not win the Champions League no okay better win it next year otherwise we've not achieved anything yeah even if you've won the league and I think the you know the point you were making earlier about like how we all feel going into this one like if we hadn't won the league from the position we were in and I've said this on the blog and I said it on the podcast and won the Champions League it would be profoundly disappointing that even with a champions league win as incredible as that would be as an achievement that we haven't yet uh fulfilled as a club there would still be that like itch you know that slightly hollow feeling to to everything which you know tells you i think why the celebrations and why people have reacted in the way that they have to to that premier league win because you know it's one of those if you ask people the question at the start of the year like what would you rather like if I can give you one now what do you want Champions League or Premier League there would have been people who say well we've never won the Champions League I'll take that but I don't think even winning the Champions League could give us what we've had over the last 10 days I just don't think it's what I don't think you can sort of exist in that sort of domestic battle that we've had for 22 years to try and win the title again and then win it and not be slightly overwhelmed by everything but in a in a really really good way you know so yeah i mean i think you've seen that with the players uh the the the interviews and everything like that you can see a weight has been lifted i think you know and if we want to talk about our chances well that's what i was going to ask you like i i really think that we have a better chance of winning this game because we've won the premier league i just don't see how that's arguable in any way absolutely i think that the players the weight is off the pressure is off and that's you know the one side of it and the other side of the coin is the belief and the kind of riding that wave of positivity and the momentum and just knowing yeah yeah we can get over the line and win big prizes.

22:49Do you know why we know that? Because we just did it. We just won a massive prize. And I think as long as we hadn't won the Premier League and coming into this one, no matter how good they are, there's that nagging doubt. Arteta talked about himself, himself having that doubt. Maybe I'm not the man who can get us over the line. There will not be a single player in that squad and certainly not the manager who now ever has to feel that again. And I think that's huge. I think that's huge. I think the weight being lifted, the pressure off our shoulders, you can go and play freely in this one and have a go.

23:30PSG are a fantastic team. There's going to be tough, tough periods of this game. I thought we played really well against them twice last season, but letting a couple of goals in some of those tough periods, We couldn't quite handle them in the first 15 minutes at the Emirates last season. And that sort of set the, even though we were, for me, probably the better team over the following 75 minutes, not quite enough to score a goal. And then you go to Paris with a mountain to climb. They started, we started, sorry, on top and all over them in Paris. And then didn't get again the way that they did get the goal at the Emirates when they were on top at the start.

24:09We didn't get the goal. Donnarumma made a couple of fantastic saves again, like he did in the first leg. Yeah, the rice header, for example. The rice header, and the one, Odegaard fired one in from the edge of the box as well, low down, that he got down to. And, you know, those are the ones that you need to go in when it's tight in those moments. And they didn't for us, and they did for them last season. That's how close it is, though, for me. These are two teams. We played two games last season, and we were, across 180 minutes, I think pretty much as good as them. They took their chances. We didn't take As.

24:43And we did not have any attacking depth. Right. We had Trossard played up front the first game because Thomas Partey was suspended. So Marino actually played in midfield in the first leg and Trossard and Rice dropped deeper. Marino played in midfield with Rice and Odegaard and Trossard played up front. And we'd been playing with Marino up front for weeks, months at that point. And then the second game, Mourinho played up front because of the injuries. Then Calafuri featured a right back. We didn't have Gabriel at the time. We had a barely fit Bakayo Saka. This was nowhere near a full-strength Arsenal side.

25:23Raheem Sterling on the bench along with a clutch of double-barreled youngsters most of whom aren't even at the club anymore. There was not that depth. I was kind of bemused by the, when the semi-finals were played, I thought over the last two years, PSG are the best team I've seen in Europe. They're the best team to watch. And I think when they are playing well, which is a lot in the Champions League knockout stages, they look unstoppable. They look impossible to keep up with. And Bayern were considered in this year's semi-final on par with that. Bayern, you narrowly lose away from home in that ridiculous 5-4 game.

26:07And then PSG scored early in Munich. Bayern got the goal back. Bayern were considered to be sort of on the unlucky side of a coin toss against a really top team. Two top teams going at each other, creating chances, playing fluid football. Across the two legs in our semi-final last season, we took more shots than Bayern did across their two legs against PSG this season. We created more, if you don't count their penalty in the first leg, we created more XG than Bayern did in the two legs this season, the semi-final. Arsenal were not praised for ambitious, positive, attacking football, threatening PSG, taking the game to them.

26:48More shots, higher XG than Bayern Munich across those two games this season. I do not see this as a game that PSG are going to turn up and blow Arsenal away. And I certainly think, you know, with that attacking talent that they've got, they can blow teams away. But if you would back anyone on the planet to withstand some of that pressure, it's this Arsenal side. Yeah, for sure. Well, we're recording about, it's half three Budapest time right now. Now, Mikel Arteta is having a press conference, I think about half five, something like that anyway. So we don't know much in the way of team news. And I think the only thing we kind of need to know is whether or not Jurian Timber is considered available for this game.

27:36We can talk about the rest of the team now in a minute, but I do want to just touch on that. I imagine Mikel Arteta, by the way, if we were recording in four hours, we'd be able to play the clip where Mikel Arteta says, oh we're going to decide tomorrow morning yeah probably we'll see how he is tomorrow morning and then we'll decide but maybe maybe he might be a little more forthcoming having won the league you know he might let some of it out but like this is one where I think you know ideally if Jurian Timber is fit obviously Ben White isn't fit and can't play because he's got his leg in a brace at this moment in time if Jurian Timber is fit he plays this game because he's just the best one-on-one fullback like I think in European football at least.

28:21The problem is he hasn't played since March. I think it's March 14th, something like that. So it's a big decision, isn't it? Like it's one of those that if they, because he's in the Netherlands squad for the World Cup, so he hasn't been ruled out of the World Cup, which suggests he must be close to some kind of a return. the question is of course like how how do you balance that risk how do you manage that risk is it a case that if he is capable of playing some part in this game it has to be from the start do you think that makes sense in that if he can do an hour or 70 minutes

29:07then you put him in from the start to do that job but if for example you want to bring him on at 70 minutes and there is an element of risk and he breaks down and you're sort of losing a sub you've got a sub a sub is that a consideration is that what michael arteta is going to have to think about if and when he makes that decision about who plays at right back because i think if it's if it's not Jurian Timber, then obviously it's going to be Christian Mosquera. He's the only guy, really, I think, who we can realistically put in that position. I don't believe it will be Martin Zubemendy again, for example.

29:41I do imagine Martin Zubemendy, in part, played there last weekend in case something happened. Obviously, something could happen, knock on wood, it doesn't. but theoretically something could happen to Mascara and then we have to put somebody else at right back. And I don't think it will ever be Declan Rice again. So I do wonder if Martin Zubimendi was put there, you know, in case as a last resort, something has to change and we do need another player to go there. Not to start the game, obviously. The Timber one's hard, I think, because...

30:25there's just no way of knowing how sharp he is. And I do expect PSG to try and fly out the blocks and really put us under pressure early on. And there's that little part of me that says, oh, but if Timber's good for half an hour, would you rather him have the half an hour against Kfarach Galia when Kfarach Galia has already been running around for an hour? And then you've got the half hour where he's, I mean, he seems to be able to run all day long, but where he's at least not, he's got 60 minutes in the legs let's put it that way like you say there's that inherent risk if you start Mascara you take him off, you put Timber on and Timber can't get through more than 20 minutes then you have to change again and then he is going to be Zubemendi at right back and this could be it's not beyond the realms of possibility this could be a 120 minute game yeah I just want to look at the the 2014 Champions League final and if I could find it, but Diego Costa was in this sort of situation.

31:27Diego Costa and sort of won Atletico Madrid, the Champions League, and was a big injury down his hamstring for the Champions League final against Real Madrid. And he did start. And he was bad actually, wasn't he? He was awful and they took him off after 10 minutes because he couldn't move. He couldn't run. But they obviously, being a Champions League final, also a world cup summer so there was no like oh no better save him it's the world you're in a champions league final like you might which one is you're in timber more likely to win i know he'd love to play a world cup but he's a lot more likely to win a winner's medal tomorrow night than some way through july especially with ronald kum under ronald kum yeah exactly so I think you kind of I think you take the risk I think on a player level it's a hard choice if you want to push yourself and take that risk that you miss a World Cup but I think Arsenal yeah you take that risk from the beginning it didn't end well for Atletico Madrid that night but I think I can completely understand why they did what they did and 10 minutes in you go actually it turns out as we feared Diego Costa can't run let's just take him off but if that happens 10 minutes in then it happens 10 minutes in And I think, you know, if Timber can start, then you start him and you warm Muscara up with the starters, knowing that it might only be 15 minutes and he's going to have to go on.

32:54It is such a risk, isn't it? That is the way I would say it. Five subs nowadays too, right? Yeah, true. Five subs. But also, like, I think the idea that you have to make a sub 10, 15, 20 minutes into a game, there's something a little bit, oh, you know, that's also a difficult one. So I think it is a really big risk. He can't be fully fit. He can't be fully sharp. He's certainly not match fit. But maybe the flip side of that is he's not fatigued either and could play a significant role against Kavaric Kelly. I imagine if it was Ben White, we wouldn't be having this discussion because Ben White is a right back and an experienced player.

33:34Christian Mascara is kind of filling in in his second position when he plays right back. Yeah. He's a young player. It's not the same conversation if Ben White's fit. Because I think you go, no, we trust Ben White. Ben White can handle the pressure, the occasion. He is a right back. Jurian Timber might be needed for half an hour. Great. Yeah. Ben White, hour, 70 minutes. Give us all you've got. It's different when it's a young player playing slightly out of position.

34:09I don't know what to expect Arsenal will try everything to get Jurgen Timber on the pitch and I can imagine a scenario where he starts and doesn't play very long I can imagine him playing an hour and I can imagine him not being fit enough to play at all I'm sure Arsenal will do everything they can the interesting thing to look beyond the right back position is the way the season's ended compared to the rest of the season so far, Mikel Arteta has decisions to make in basically every other position across the rest of the pitch. Well, I don't think he does. I think he's got to think about his midfield, the construction of his midfield.

34:55So who's your left back then? Calafiore. I think I'm going Calafiore for this game. I think, you know, you could make a solid argument that Piero and Capier is probably defensively, I don't want to say the better option, but the more defensive option. But I also think, you know, this is being presented as PSG, the great attack versus Arsenal, the great defense. But as you laid out, the way we played PSG last season, it was not like that. And I don't think Mikel Arteta wants to play this game where it's like, okay, all of their great attackers against all of our great defenders. That is not how we want to play.

35:36And that's not how we should play. And I think when Calafuri plays, there is just a bit more cohesiveness to our ability to get the ball forward. I remember, could have been... What's Italian for je ne sais quoi? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there is that. There is Calafuri. I remember being at the Burnley game last week and just watching him making runs in that sort of, like from the centre forward position into the inside right channel. That timber, the usual timber zone. Yeah, exactly. He popped up and scored there against PSV in the Champions League last season. So I do think it's something we need to think about because when we have the midfield conversation, which we're going to do right now, you know one of the great assets and qualities of the PSG midfield is is how they rotate right how they rotate in different positions and you could say well you've got a man Mark Fettino or you've got a you've got to like pay close attention to this guy but you know you just end up roaming around the pitch like a puppy chasing a ball if you do it so it's it is something we have to think about but it's also a problem I think we have to present to them in the same way and I think Calafiore is you know better able to do that than in capier and i think if you know if if it's an hour in and we're one nil up give me some in capier i'm i'm on board with that if you want to solidify calafuri has done his job and we're gonna fucking make them suffer for the last half a half an hour as we we go on to win the champions league final one nil um then i see in capier's role as as a bit more important but i think with with the way i think arteta wants to play this game and wants his team to play I think it's got to be Calafuri yeah I definitely agree I go with you I think that PSG when when they don't have the ball that PSG midfield will press really high and really intense and get really tight on you and the beauty of Calafuri well the beauty of Calafuri is obvious but the beauty of Calafuri the footballer is it's not just skin deep yeah he will pop up behind that midfield presses high and leaves you know that gap between midfield and defense and he will just roam into those areas and and pick up dangerous spaces and offer his teammates the arsenal midfield passes through the lines through gaps where he can turn and then kind of just express himself and and drift and it's he you're right i think with he we offer so much we are offered so much more from him at left back.

38:10Hincapier is a great sub to have, like you say, too. I think if you're, obviously, if you're a goal up and you bring on that sort of intensity, that tenacity at left back, I also think, to be honest, if you're looking for a change in energy and the game's sort of even, or maybe even a goal down, I'd rather Califurion to create something than Hincapier. But he brings a sort of energy and burst and thrust that I think no matter the game state, Hincapia can be a really big asset, you know, coming on against some tired legs for sure. Yeah. And yeah, who knows? We might get to see his arse again. What's your midfield trio?

38:50Because we talked about how strong PSG are in there and they really are. And it's just such a, the movement, the technical quality, the experience that these guys have in that midfield trio is, you know, it's kind of off the charts. How does Arteta deal with that? How do you do it? Do you fight fire with fire? We were asked at Union Chapel, what's your midfield for the Champions League final? And I said, Rice, Odegaard, Eze. And it is brave. I think it is brave. I don't think that's what we'll see. I kind of hope it is, but I also understand why there might be a little more caution applied to that midfield trio.

39:35but like it's sort of when i think about what they've got and how we counter that like it's about like trying to exert that kind of influence ourselves over them um yeah and when i think about the the technical quality that those three players have and what they might be able to bring in terms of creativity you know the the sort of running power of declan rice the the shooting ability and the sort of movement of Eze, you know, it's a nice cocktail for me. Maybe it is brave. Maybe it is stupid. Maybe you need to like respect that PSG midfield a little bit more. But I also think like it's a final and you need to go out and you need to cause them problems.

40:22You know, if you were... Go on. If we need a goal with half an hour to go, if it's new or new... That's the other aspect of it, yeah. You want to look to the bench and have Eze or Odegaard sat there, right? Kind of, yeah. I get that. I get that. Like, with all due respect to the other midfield options, well, maybe if Mikel Moreno is in the squad, there's another midfield option that gives you that bit of goal threat that perhaps Myles Lewis Kelly and Martin Zubomendi don't necessarily give you. But, you know, is that something he has to consider? Like, A, a little bit of stifling of that PSG midfield, but B, keeping something in reserve.

40:58You know, does he play Zubimendi, who's been, you know, the second half of his season has not been as good as his first. But the first part of his season, I think, is slightly overlooked in terms of how good it was and how important he was to the team. Does he take the, I don't want to say this sounds dismissive and it's not meant to be in any way, but like the romantic notion of Myles Lewis Skelly starting in midfield in a Champions League final, you know, mere weeks after everybody was sort of saying, well, it looks like his time at Arsenal is up, you know, get that pure profit in, we can sell him in the summer, you know.

41:32You know, how does he balance that? You know, I think there is a need to respect that PSG midfield, but also, you know, we've got to go out there and try and take this game by the scruff of the neck ourselves. What would yours be? If you were picking it right now, what would yours be? Or does it depend a little bit on who's starting up front? Yeah, so I'm going to give you, I was going to say, I'm going to give you my sort of two deeper midfielders. Okay. Declan Rice, obviously. And a month ago, like you just touched on, A month ago, I didn't know, or I wouldn't have been surprised if you told me Myles Lewis Skelly will never play for Arsenal again.

42:17And now I'm going to tell you that I think he should and will start a Champions League final tomorrow. Which is absolutely ludicrous. Yeah, I would go with Rice and Lewis Skelly. Okay. I think Lewis Skelly offers some of that technical ability and swagger and calm under pressure and weaving his way out of trouble that those PSG players offer. I think he can dovetail really, really well with Calafuri at left back as well. Some of those rotations when Calafuri does come forward and roam. I think Lewis Skelly in there is really interesting, the way that they can combine. and Calafuri maybe stretches the pitch a little bit more going into those deeper zones up against the opposition back line and Lewis Skelly is just incredibly comfortable on the ball closer to his own centre-halves and you can maybe allow him to or trust him to marshal that area while Calafuri goes on his little adventures.

43:20And I think, yeah, Lewis Skelly and Rice is a great combination. Okay, but now... I think from character as well. I do not think Lewis Skelly is phased by anything No I agree with that And I think a combination of Lewis Skelly and Rice Will walk out of that tunnel Chests puffed out Nodding their heads looking at each other Going like yeah we're about to win a Champions League Semi-final As we did win a Champions League semi-final A few weeks ago I want players on the pitch Who feel like that I think Okay. So that would be my two. Then the question is really hard. It is really, really difficult, isn't it?

44:04The other one's so difficult because I think Arsenal play best when Martin Odegaard's on the pitch. I think pretty much, without exception, Arsenal's best games, the games when Arsenal were in most control, the games when Arsenal press better, the games when Arsenal sort of get to conduct play, and decide on our terms which areas of the pitch the game is played in. I think those games almost always are when Martin Erdogan is playing. I feel a but coming on here. Are you sort of thinking about that need to potentially change something in the game, change the dynamic of the game? I'm thinking of the moments of magic from Eberich Yezzeh.

44:52And if we're talking again about players who are not phased and actually, I think, enjoy the bigger the stage, the bigger the moment. And Eze didn't, no, he got the chance. He didn't give his greatest performance in the semi-final. And I think this is the problem when discussing Eze and whether or not you pick him, is that you pick Eberichi Eze not because he'll be good for 60 minutes, but because he'll be good for three. And those three games will win you the game. Those three minutes will win you the entire game. And I think that's so difficult to put up against Martin Odegaard, who's often the opposite.

45:27He will play really excellently for 58 minutes, or for 60 minutes of the 60, but without that one moment that everything sparks into life and something, and he often does, West Ham, Newcastle off the bench this season. I find that such a hard decision to make. If you're picking that midfield too, then the either or with Eze and Odegaard is really tough. And like up at the Etihad, you know, he played Eze on the left. This is a game where recent form and momentum and again, not feeling that pressure, enjoying, relishing, I feel like these occasions, is a game that I find it really hard to look past Leandro Trossard.

46:11Also remember at City, he, as a, for example, like sliding doors moment in the game, you know, he cracked that shot off the post, you know, And that was sort of not out of nothing, but it was that sort of burst of impact that he can have. I find it so difficult to get in Mikel Arteta's head and wonder what sort of constellation of players. Let's call it a front four. This season we've had too often, we've talked to death, that Martinelli, Jokeres, Maduike, front three. And I think for me personally, I'd include Eze behind three of them as well. There's players who don't keep the ball. There's no domination and death by a thousand cuts between the four of them.

46:58It's all kind of one paste. It's all 100 % of the time, foot down all the time between the four of them. And that's why it doesn't work. and I feel like the selections all sort of feed into each other in this front four. If you want to go with Odegaard and Havertz, then I think maybe you should play Martinelli on the left and obviously a Saka on the right. I feel like if you go with Jokeres, then that's an Odegaard game and a Trossard game. If you go with Havertz, maybe it's more of an... If you go with Havertz and Trossard on the left, then it's more of an Eze game as a number 10. I find it really interesting, those decisions that Mikel Arteta has in this one, those different combinations.

47:47And obviously, look, it's great to have the options on the bench. I would hate to be. He talked the other week about the number of options, the number of different lineups he had written down on his iPad. There must be so many different options for this one. You've got Eze on the left, you've got Trossard, you've maybe got Martinelli for the work rate and energy as well. If you look through, Martinelli's not started that many games this season. When he has started, it tends to be against Manchester United away, Liverpool away at the start of the season. He trusts Martinelli in these big games.

48:18You think Hakimi from right back for PSG. Who do you want in a race with Hakimi when he flies forward? It's Gabriel Martinelli. Yeah, and it's not, for example, with all due respect, it's not Eze on the left because that's, you know, that's asking the wrong thing of Eber Eche Eze in that position. I mean, I think we have to just move it on to the front three because maybe the midfield lineup is really dependent on that. And I think it's going to be Trossard on the left. I do. I think it's going to be Saka on the right, obviously. And I think it's going to be Kai Havertz up front. I think Kai Havertz is going to start this game up front.

48:58I explain why. and it's not like, you know, yeah, I get a bit, sometimes a little bit of feedback about some Victor Yacquire's opinions and I'm happy to eat fucking humble pie on that, right? He was great the last few months of the season, finished our top scorer, helped us win the Premier League, top man, right? But I always said, and I think maybe we had this discussion, that if it came right down to it and Mikel Arteta had everybody fit, who does he start up front in a big game and a champions league final that there isn't a bigger game i always said it would be kai havertz and i think that would be the case tomorrow but going back to what i said as well that this is a game that potentially could go to 120 minutes and arteta is quite cleverly uh people might have rolled their eyes a little bit at this he stopped referring to substitutes he's referring to players who come on later in games as finishers.

49:57I think there's a really good argument to be made that in a game like this, if you're really properly, objectively assessing the qualities of the players that we have, Havertz is probably a better starter and Jochrez is a better finisher coming on against tighter legs. If he can, you know, replicate some of the great holdup play we've seen from him in the last few months, if we get a chance, if the game goes to penalties, he's somebody you want on the pitch as well right he's somebody you want on the pitch so it's not to be dismissive of jacquez but i do think that that will be something arteta considers when he picks his team and that's why habits will start if he plays the full 90 i'd be absolutely astonished i think there is a role for jacquez in this game but i think it's a role that you know might ask something quite specific of him because of when it might be that he comes onto the pitch.

50:54Yeah, I think I'm with you. I don't know. Part of it is, you know, I don't know how many minutes Kain Havertz has in his legs. He hasn't played loads of football. I didn't think he would start this game until he started against Burnley. And I thought that was Mikl Arteta giving him 70 minutes of football to see, can I give him an hour of football in the Champions League final? Yeah, I agree. As soon as that line-up, if you'd have asked me 10 minutes before the line-up, I was at the Emirates. I was at the Emirates with a friend before the line-ups came in or as the line-ups came in. And if you'd have asked me when we were stood there on the concourse, who's going to start in the Champions League final?

51:42I'd have said Jokeres. And then the line-up dropped and straight away, I would have switched my answer to Kai Havertz. I thought about it. That night, when the teams were announced, Kai Havertz is starting today because Mikhail Arteta wants to start him in the Champions League final. He gives you better sort of hold-up play, link play, if you want to call it that, than Jokeres bringing others into the game. There are going to be moments where PSG press really high and we're struggling to get out and we're going to have to fire that ball and it's going to need to stick. and Jokeres has improved in that over the last couple of months, month or two.

52:20But Kai Havertz is the player I would trust more to win that ball and hold it up and hold a defender off before laying it off to one of his midfielders joining him. I think that, as you say, Jokeres is probably more suited as well to coming on against those more tired legs. You've battled with Kai Havertz for an hour and then Jokeres comes on and you've kind of been worn down a little bit by Havertz. So then suddenly you've got this guy who loves running in the channels and taking defenders on 20, 30-yard sprints out to the full-back areas. I think that's great as a sub. And I think if you look at our big game record, our big game record over the past couple of seasons before this one was fantastic.

53:02We did not lose games to Liverpool, Manchester United or Chelsea, Manchester City. And this season we have lost games to those teams. and Kai Havertz hasn't been available. And I don't think those two things are completely unrelated. We haven't, oh, we've lost because Jokrez is playing. It's not that. No, no, no, I agree. But I don't think it's unrelated. I think Kai Havertz is really well suited to those games because you need someone who can hold the ball, keep it, take that pressure off you. You need someone who, Jokrez works really hard, but I think Havertz and particularly with Havertz and Erdegaard as a pair, do incredible work, pressing in that front two and shutting teams down.

53:47It's one thing to work hard and be stood near the right guy, but the timing of when you press, the moment the ball leaves the goalkeeper's foot or from one centre-back into the midfield, it's all about the timing, snapping into those challenges. Rice is fantastic at it. But Odegaard and Havertz have, over the past three or four years, perfected the art of delivering that pressure at exactly the right time to force a mistake. Look at the Havertz goal against Man City, for example. Right, another one. So I think this is a game to get Havertz probably on from the start. It's hard because I feel like then maybe you'd lean towards Eze, but I feel like Havertz and Odegaard have a great relationship and combination as well.

54:33And then that's why I brought Martinelli into the conversation for left wing because do you, without Eza, without Jokeres, do you need a bit more of a thrust and a threat in behind, a bit more of a burst that Martinelli obviously offers a little bit more than Trossard? I think it would be a real surprise if Martinelli started in this one. But that's why I sort of mentioned him. It was with, you know, Odegaard, Saka and Havertz in mind as the rest of that sort of front four. Martinelli maybe is the one that offers more of what those three lack a little bit of, which I don't think he'll start, but it just makes it an interesting question for me.

55:10Yeah, I agree with you. I think Havertz probably will start, and I think Havertz is probably the player I would go with. And as you said, there will be, we've mentioned a few of them already, Nkappie, Zubimendi, Eze or Odegaard, take your pick. Marino. Marino, there will be a role, and Jocheres or Havertz, whoever doesn't start, there will be a role for those guys in this game. There will be a decisive role for somebody. I don't think, I could be horribly wrong, but I don't think it's going to be like last year and we're 4-0 down and the last 40 minutes don't mean anything like Inter had last season.

55:46I think everything will be on the line still, whatever the score is going into the last 30, 25 minutes of this game. And I expect a lot of those players that you just mentioned to feature. I mean, Marino is also a player that you take Havertz off and you can replace a lot of the qualities in a different part of the pitch, but a lot of the qualities that Havertz offers you by sort of putting Marino on at the same time. And doesn't he just give off the vibe of somebody who comes and has a really important moment? Yeah, like if you were to sort of fast forward to Sunday morning and told people that Mikel Marino scored the only goal in a 1-0 win for Arsenal in the Champions League final, people would go, yeah, of course.

56:31That makes all the sense in the world to me. That Spain goal against Germany at the Euros a couple of summers ago, you know, it's late on and it's, you know, we're 1-0 down or it's 0-0 and Marino goes on for the last 15 minutes and you lob the ball into the box. You'd be excited about him getting on the end of it for sure. Yeah, let's, I mean, listen, we'll see. We'll obviously wait and see what Mikel Arteta does. He's got options and that's a really good thing that he does have those options and does have those decisions to make. And I'm sure over the course of this week, he's been thinking very, very hard about, you know, who he's got, when he's going to use them and who we're playing against.

57:07and we talked about the midfield of PSG. We talked about how good they are up front. Everybody knows the quality that they have up there, even if I don't think they play against defenders of the caliber of Saliba and Gabriel every week. You know, at Champions League level, obviously it's a little bit different, but even then I don't think the Bayern defenders are in the same class as those two. What about PSG at the back? You know, they have some experience there. Marquinhos is obviously a hugely experienced and talented player. William Pacho, very good at the center of defense. I do have a little feeling about their goalkeeper being susceptible to, you know, the kind of onslaught that Arsenal, particularly from set pieces, might provide.

57:51Just don't grab his arms. Just don't grab his arms. But, you know, he, I'm not saying there's a weak link in this PSG team, but he certainly doesn't give you the same kind of like, oh that guy as you know Dembele or Kvaira Chkelly or Vitinho or Jean Neves or any of those guys that that's maybe something I'm looking at and are they going to do that crazy thing of just like kicking the ball to touch like a rugby team again you know they haven't um I saw this they haven't played a goal kick short or he like I think free kicks included like you know dead ball situations when he's kicking the ball.

58:29They haven't played one short in the Champions League since March. They go long. Against Bayern, kept kicking it deliberately out of touch. Apparently, the idea behind that was then Bayern get the ball, but Michael Lise is surrounded. So they can throw the ball on the pitch, but he can't do anything with it. if they get the ball on the pitch from like a knockdown and he's one-on-one, he's really dangerous. So you can imagine they'll maybe treat Saka the same, right? And kind of kick to our right-back area from goal kicks and that sort of thing maybe. So we just get a throw on the halfway line.

59:13I mean, if you want to come and surround Saka on that side of the pitch, I'm like, great, throw, get it out of your feet, whip it across the pitch. You've got Trossard, maybe Eza, Califuri on the left-hand side in plenty of space because everybody's bunched around Sakura. Like, fantastic. I do think, yeah, I do think, obviously, the names in the team and the ability of the players in the team, he is the one, more than any other, that stands out. They work incredibly hard. So I don't think you've got this thing of having a superstar team and like Salah over the years at Liverpool. It's like Farah Scalier.

59:51Or Mbappe at PSG, for example. Yeah, PSG, the PSG especially. It's not that anymore. Like Farage Gellier works like a dog up and down, like Martinelli, like Saka does. Every blade of grass down that flank. I think the rotations and stuff, really, really important to kind of get to grips with it early. Like I say, I think that first 15 minutes at the Emirates last season, we were kind of blown away. No other team did that to us. Over the last three years, I'd go as far as saying, No other team really, Man City on the odd occasion, has done that to us, where for 15 minutes, we just could not handle them at all.

1:00:32Couldn't get near them. Odegaard after that sort of man-marked Vitinha. And I think maybe we'll see something similar because then we really got a stranglehold in the game. But it's all those runs, the runs into space, the kind of double movements, you know. One of the front line will drop off and then one of the midfielders will burst in behind just as that movement off the front line gets followed by Saliba or by Mascara. You move that one two yards forward and then bang, like in that split second, the run starts from midfield and the ball goes through over the top. I think it's imperative to kind of be alert to that.

1:01:13But also remember all these rotations, they're still always like in a 4-3-3. They were kind of all over the place, but it is still a 4-3-3. I'm looking forward to Saka against Nuno Mench, who I think has been excellent. I think he's come on a hell of a lot over the last couple of years. The Champions League semi-final against Dortmund two years ago, Dortmund won. And the game in Dortmund, Jadon Sancho had him every single time, one-on-one. Last year, PSG went and won the Champions League and he didn't look out of place at all. But I watched that buying game and he was excellent, but at least he's so good.

1:01:57And I just was watching, thinking, if you really go at him, does he still have one of those performances in him? You know, like that one against Sancho a couple of years ago. I think on the other side, Hakimi's a good defender, relies on his pace a little bit. But I think when you've got Trossard, you've got that movement from Califuri, can you overwhelm him on that flank? There are opportunities here. PSG are a fantastic team. They work hard without the ball. They are organised. They showed in Munich that they can also play a game where they let you have the ball and they sit in a block like we do and make it really hard to break them down.

1:02:42But they were two goals up in Munich when they were playing like that. They don't start this one two goals up. I think they'll come out of us. And I think when they do, if you can get Saka one-on-one against Nuno Mench, if you can, when we do win the ball, if you can play one, two quick passes, attract that midfield and then have Rice burst into the space behind that midfield, there are going to be opportunities for Arsenal to take the game where we want it to be played and then test that goalkeeper. Yeah. Well, there's such a lot going on. So many possibilities, so many permutations, team selections, team rotations, all of it.

1:03:21it's huge it feels huge so just to sort of finish off you know on a very basic level are you feeling confident because like I've gone into big games as an Arsenal fan in the past and you sort of hope that you can rise to the occasion right and sometimes it happens sometimes it does it doesn't but I can remember feeling not particularly confident at certain times about what I think the team is capable of. On this occasion, having just won the Premier League, having celebrated with all that goodwill factor that we were talking about at the top, it could be completely misplaced. Who knows what's going to happen?

1:04:01But I do feel confident that this is a team that can go out there and put in the kind of performance that can win the Champions League for the first time for this club. And look, I don't know for sure if that's going to happen or not. These aren't famous last words. I'm just saying how I feel. Like the last time, 2006, you're going, you know, if Thierry Henry has a brilliant game. Then maybe. Maybe we can win the Champions League. You know, and there were doubts, obviously, that season are certainly going into the game because I think Saul Campbell and Ashley Cole had just come back from quite long injuries, I think, because Cole in particular had been out for quite a long time.

1:04:44So Femble had had a really odd season. The whole episode against West Ham at Highbury and that had gone on. Yeah, so you're looking at that team and thinking… He and Robert Perez were going into it. At that point, it was going to be, and it ended up being, both of them at their last game for Arsenal. There was a weird team. It was the very end of a team. Yeah, the end of an era, yeah. The very end of a team that had been a fantastic team for the previous four, five years. Five years, yeah. Were coming to the very end of their cycle as a team. And it was Bergkamp, Perez, Sol Campbell. It was their last games for Arsenal.

1:05:33Freddie Lundberg and Thierry Henry didn't stay for much longer. And they were not at the end of their careers. Which is to say, I think this team is better placed to achieve what we want Arsenal to achieve in a game like this than the one we had in 2006. So I don't know. Are you feeling the same? Yeah, I am. I feel pretty good. I feel pretty good. I've been riding that wave for the last 10 days or so. And yeah, I think that thing there that these players know as well. We talked about the pressure and the pressure being lifted of winning the Premier League. And I think that is another pressure being lifted.

1:06:18It's a pressure they don't have to deal with. Bergkamp, Cole, Campbell, Perez, knowing that would be Perez didn't know for sure, but did pretty soon into the game. All of them knew that was going to be their last game for Arsenal, more or less. and I think that adds a different kind of pressure, another kind of pressure. This is your last chance. This isn't our last chance. Nobody on that pitch tomorrow has their last chance of doing this, of achieving this with Arsenal. So I think that is another thing. Obviously, like you, you don't know what's going to happen, but you can feel good or feel bad heading into it.

1:06:59I feel like if PSG are to win the Champions League, they're going to have to play really, really well. And that's, I think, all you can really ask. You play a team that won the Champions League last season, that barring a few kind of mishaps in the home leg in the semi-final would have blown Bayern Munich away. they've over the past couple of years blown away us during periods of that game they tore Liverpool apart then they've knocked out pretty much everybody that you could want to knock out yeah I think I think we will give them a hell of a fight and yeah you can't ask your team in a Champions League final to just go out and win the Champions League because it's not that simple you can ask them to make sure the other team if they are going to win it step off the pitch thinking Jesus we had to work really hard for that and that's why what I think will whatever it ends up as I think we'll definitely get that let's say that from Arsenal 100 % you know there's no question about how hard this team works but there's also no question in my mind really about how good they are I think we've got some fantastic players we've talked about PSG but I think we've got the players who can hurt them so let's hope that's what we can do so i think we've got a minute 90 minutes exactly minutes away from this longest nine months of our lives being the greatest season in arsenal history well that's what that that's exactly what it would be you know and i think you know you talk about winning the champions league would be the icing on the cake i think the cake has already been iced winning the premier league we've had the cake the icing is on it by by the way.

1:08:53The icing is on the cake. Now we just need the cherry on top and the cherry on top is the Champions League. So let's hope we can do that. I hope, you know, you obviously have a fantastic time with your friends and family wherever you're watching it for the most obvious reason in that it's a huge celebration. But as ever, thank you, Lewis, for being with me and thank you for being with me throughout the season. This is the last game of the season and hopefully a very, very exciting and enjoyable one for all of us. But thank you for being here. No, thank you. It is always a pleasure. And please get out of your hotel room and paint Budapest red.

1:09:29More red. Redder than it already is. And it's already quite red. So, look, I think I'll do that. I'll get this podcast out to everybody. To all of you listening, I hope you all enjoy it. I hope this season ends with even more celebration because fuck me if it isn't a lot of fun winning stuff, right? So I think after everything we've been through over the years, we could do it a little more. whatever happens so thanks a million for being here myself and James will have an Arscast extra for you at some point next week we're not quite sure it's all up in the air he's flying hither and tither but we'll find something for you we'll try and get something out to you on Sunday regardless of what happens on Saturday evening hopefully a very very very hungover celebration pod we'll do that for you one way or the other on Sunday for now though take it easy folks and we will catch you on the next one

1:10:24Thank you.

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