Episode 835 - Perspective

0:00I always appreciate when thoughtful and luxurious design can help change the way a space feels.

0:05Tim Stillman: That's why I love how the 48-inch panoramic display stretches across the entire dashboard in my Lincoln Navigator SUV. It helps make it easy to stay connected while giving the cabin an open, expansive feel. Whether I'm juggling errands or just enjoying some quiet time, this feature brings a fresh perspective and helps elevate even the everyday moments. Visit Lincoln.com to learn more.

1:00Tim Stillman: Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? I hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. It is a bit of a strange day to be recording because obviously there's been some sad, some tragic news in the football world, in the Premier League world, of course. and that is the passing of Liverpool forward Diogo Jada, who, along with his brother, was killed in a car crash in Spain. So I'm going to leave the introductory waffle to an absolute minimum and just kind of kick on with today's show. So with me to talk about that and to talk about some of the other Arsenal stuff in the perspective that we can give it is Tim Stillman.

1:45Tim Stillman: Hello, Tim. Hello there. It is strange, as I said, because the news about Diogo Jada has had a big impact on, well, certainly football fans. And, you know, I'm online, you're online, everyone's online. And it has been the big story of the day. And it is, I don't quite know how to put it, but footballers, when they die young, it seems to have a very profound impact on football fans. And I speak kind of generally, and as Arsenal fans, it's something we've experienced in the past with Jose Antonio Reyes. It's hard not to think about him on a day like today. Players like David Rowe Castle, who died way too young, and people of a certain vintage will remember we had an Italian central defender, very highly rated Nicolo Galli, who was 17 when he died in a moped accident in Italy.

2:39Tim Stillman: And it is, I think, one of those strange situations where, as a football fan, it feels so completely out of the blue when a footballer passes at a very young age. Yeah, it really does. And it's hard to think of, actually, an incident like this. Like you say, I think we've experienced footballers dying too young. And it's really difficult to think of an example of a really, like, just prime footballer. Like you look at Diego Xhota has just won the league, just won the Nations League with Portugal, you know, as well as the much more tragic kind of personal context of him just getting married. And I think there's a few reasons it really hits us.

3:21I mean, first off, first and foremost, the humanity of it. And you think about his family and the fact that he literally just got married and has children and that's really heartbreaking. And that's the absolute foremost kind of emotion. I think also when things like this happen, we get that little voice in our head that brings us very brutally face-to-face with the fragility of our own mortality and things like that. And I think there are a couple of points this hits as football fans in particular. I mean, first of all, it really reminds me of how young these guys are. Like, despite everything that Diogo Jota has achieved, and let's be very clear, should have achieved in the future, 28, playing for Liverpool, probably would have been there another few years.

4:10I mean, it feels very glib to say this in this moment, but he would have won more trophies, that's for sure, as a footballer in his kind of prime years. But it makes you realise how young these guys are, and his brother's 26. And, you know, you look at the marriage in particular, that's supposed to be like a beginning of your life. And at the absolute maximum, him and his brother should be a third of the way through their lives. And it's very difficult, I think, sometimes for us to assimilate how young footballers are because of how much they achieve at such a young age and because of the way we talk about them, you know, all the time, as we have done all summer, as we will continue to do so, talking about transfers and games and performances.

4:54And it becomes very easy and I think quite natural to divorce them almost from that kind of humanity. But I think the other point it really hits is I've been, you know, a couple of hours to think about this since the news broke. But if you're listening to this podcast, you know, you're listening to two guys who have no qualification to talk about football, really. and you're choosing to spend your leisure time like this. And we are recording this for the same reason, because football just means a bit more to us than something that we do at the weekend or that happens for a couple of hours a week.

5:33And, you know, I was looking at, I saw like someone posted a big goalie scores for Porto against Benfica. If you're a Porto fan, I'm sure someone says to you, remember that goalie scored against Benfica. That sets off a whole load of conversation conversation where you were, how you remember it, whether you were in the ground or not, where you look at a family barbecue or something. The last goal he scores for Liverpool is the winning goal in a Merseyside derby when they're on their way to winning the league. You cannot score many bigger goals than that at the elite level of football. And these guys, and it made me think of Jose Reyes as well and how we all remembered that Middlesbrough goal when the news broke about his death these guys they do things that matter to us beyond football that are genuine life memories so think about the Reyes goal against Middlesbrough when I think about that I think about one of the best moments of my life sure just one of the best moments of of being a football fan like that elation I felt when that went in and I'm sure lots of people listening you know assuming you're old enough would have felt exactly the same like those are bookmarks in your life those are moments in your life that that really really matter and resonate with you and even though the player that does it will probably never interact with you never understand or know who you are or what what they did means to you like it really really does it means something beyond like someone who pulls on your shirt and and kicks a ball around and and i think that's

7:02Tim Stillman: the immediacy of that really kind of hits us yeah i mean it is this sort of strangely parasocial relationship that we have with with players we know them we know all about them we we want them to succeed when they're in our shirt and I think the point you make about the age is is another one you know I'm sitting here I'm 53 years of age and he's gone at 28 and it puts things in perspective for you I think there's this I don't know um maybe I'm just speaking on my own behalf here but but you sort of view footballers in kind of the same way as you view pop stars or actors or something. They're sort of, we know they're real, but they're sort of unreal at the same time.

7:49Tim Stillman: So, you know, when a pop star goes too young as many have or actors go too young many have, there is this sort of more visceral connection. And it doesn't, you know, for any split second mean that other bad things happening in the world to other people aren't as important or important or worthy of our time and our sadness or anything else. But this is the world in which we live in. You know, this is the world that we exist in. We work, you know, and as much as you can call this work, you know, in football, and Diogo Jota is a guy who, you know, I think will have frustrated Arsenal fans over the years, but then all of a sudden, yeah, you know, he scored lots of goals against us because he was a really good player.

8:30Tim Stillman: But then all of a sudden you get this dose of perspective And how lucky am I that it's not my tire that didn't blow out on a motorway. And, you know, you think about all the things that we're worried about this summer. Can I just express, like, again, it all feels glib, but the kind of duality of that. The first I heard of this was you messaging me this morning because I hadn't been online. And you referenced the Jota news. And the first thing that went through my head, do you know the first place I went? I went to David Ornstein's Twitter because I thought, oh, if we made a bid for him. And my immediate response to that was, yeah, I kind of hope we have.

9:10Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't think we can get that player and it feels a bit odd, but I'd have Diogo Jota like in our forward line. And then like the actual reality of what it is like comes home to you. And that's exactly, I think, the duality of it we're grappling with. My immediate response was, oh, we're trying to sign him. And then, you know, the actual, like the reality of it.

9:35Tim Stillman: You don't expect the news to be that. If someone mentions a footballer to you, you think, well, what's it got to do with me? And what's it got to do with Arsenal? And therefore you make that connection and you don't expect anything as awful and as tragic as has happened to him and his brother. And, you know, it's a really terrible thing for them and obviously the family. And, you know, beyond his wife and his kids, the parents who've lost two sons, it's just kind of unimaginable and just awful. So I don't really know what else we can say about it except to express sympathy and to say to everybody just, again, this sounds trite and it sounds glib.

10:18Tim Stillman: But to recognize that you're here and you're here with the people, if you're lucky, you're here with the people that you love and the time that you can spend with them is precious because you just don't know. Yeah. I mean, you know, you're talking about like how we tie footballers to memories. There are things that really, I wrote that article a couple of weeks ago about programs. Yeah. and how there's a charity, a dementia charity, that really takes a lot of program donations because they reignite memory. And that's how strong it is. And it made me reflect in any number of directions. Like, you know, I watched Neil Young's set at Glastonbury, right?

10:56I'm a big fan of Neil Young. And immediately I was on WhatsApp with my best mate from school who I hadn't spoken to. I mean, the last time I'd messaged him was January on his birthday, right? Right. We're still in touch in a sense, but not every day because we have lives and families. But watching Neil Young at Glastonbury immediately just had a big conversation about, oh, I hope he plays this. You connect over things like that. And footballers are exactly the same. I think it all comes from a really, really similar place.

11:28Tim Stillman: Yeah. We heard that Arsenal maybe were going to announce. And again, all of this is in the perspective of what's happened, and it makes you feel like a bit silly at times. But we'd heard that Arsenal were going to announce Martin Zubomendi today, and I think rightly that's not going to happen. I do think that is the right thing to do on a day like today where you don't want to express sympathy and then one hour later start the hashtag content about a new player and everything else. I do think it's the right thing to do. And I know they're not necessarily connected per se, but, you know, there's a whole summer.

12:09Tim Stillman: It can happen next week. It can happen tomorrow. It doesn't really matter. But I think on a day like today, there is a need to respect the circumstances and respect the news and respect the tragedy of what's happened here and just sort of put everything to one side. Yeah, absolutely. And it's very difficult to segue from some kind of subjects like this, which I think we're going to attempt to do at some point. And it's going to feel awkward and a little bit, yeah, to use the word again, a bit glib and a bit trite, but like, absolutely. Like, who has got, you know, the energy and the space for content that essentially is celebratory?

12:46vibratory like sure it doesn't it doesn't feel right in this circumstance at all definitely not

12:52Tim Stillman: no it doesn't but we are going to try and segue and we are going to try and discuss some of the bits and pieces that have been going on with Arsenal this week because that's why we're here and with all our sympathy and all of our respect to Diogo Jota and his family the world keeps moving unfortunately you're in that strange surreal situation and I'm sure everybody well not everybody, but most people will have experienced that sensation of, well, the world is not important because what's happening in my world is so profound. You know, if you lose somebody, if somebody dies, you sort of look at the world going on around you and think, what are you guys all doing?

13:33Tim Stillman: Why aren't you feeling what I'm feeling? And that is just kind of the way that the world works. So I don't quite know where to start, to be honest. I don't know which direction to go in beyond, you know, maybe talking a little bit about some of the transfer news and some of the stories that have been going on this week. So to go in a different direction, let's talk about Eberachese because it's a very interesting story and a very interesting link from an Arsenal perspective. And maybe what I like about it is that, to me, it doesn't feel very Mikel Arteta, which I think is an interesting aspect to this particular link and this particular player.

14:20Tim Stillman: Because I think you can look at many of the transfers he makes and go, that's an Arteta player. That's an Arteta player. He ticks all the Arteta boxes. Whereas, Eze, he doesn't. I mean, you can see why any team would want him because he's a really, really good player and he can bring a lot to your team. But what's your gut feeling on this? I mean, does it say to you, Mikel Arteta is now looking at his side and thinking, OK, I need this? Does it suggest that maybe Mikel Arteta is confident in his own abilities or what he's built so far that he can add that player who brings a little bit of, for want of a better phrase, sort of maverick energy to everything um i do think it's a really curious one yeah same here i think this is one of those rumors where initially my kind of response is excitement because i really like the player and i think he's got a lot of qualities that like you say we probably just don't quite have enough of and then i think afterwards rational brain might kick in and you know there are a few things like oh the age profile where does he really fit in but obviously when a signing is made like like you say sometimes a signing is made like Zubimendi I think I know where he's going to play yeah and what he's going to do yeah like I think those things are reasonably obvious whereas with Eze it's a bit like hmm I'm not sure I do know where he's going to play and you could look at that two ways you could look at it as hmm I'm not sure I can make sense of this and he's nearly 27 he's gonna be on a high salary and blah blah blah or you could take that lens from it that I like that I don't know where, that I don't really know where he's going to fit in, that he's not like the other players that we have.

16:06And I personally think there's a lot of evidence from what Mikel Arteta says that he has all the same kind of anxieties and criticisms of our attack as we do. I think if you listen to the guy, he verbalizes it quite clearly, quite a lot actually. and I feel like there's a lot of anxiety around about Arteta being set in his ways and stuff like that. And some of it, I think, is a bit of misunderstanding as well, like in terms of he's always talked about as a defensive manager, but then I look at what his left backs do and I kind of think...

16:41Tim Stillman: That's not defensive really. That's not defensive. And then I look at who he plays at the base of midfield and it's Jorginho and Partey and it's like, I don't think they're great defenders. It's just like where he puts certain elements of the team and perhaps you know the left a is a bit more conservative because of the madness that's going on around him whereas with essay it does feel like hmm this feels a little bit almost a little bit square peg because even if you play him off the left he doesn't really do what our other left wingers have done but like you say like that could be a really positive sign of like a bit of a change of direction a bit of something different and arteta has done that like we did go from gabriel Jesus to Kai Havertz up front, whatever people's issues with either of those players are, he completely changed what he wanted or what he really valued from a centre forward.

17:31You know, and some people might have issues with that and say, actually, I prefer what Jesus was doing, but he completely diverted to something completely different. It's just a case of whether you like the way it was particularly different. So I definitely don't view Arteta as conservative of a manager as I think other people do. However, Eze is one that makes me scratch my head, but also kind of think about the possibilities, not least because I think he's a really, really good player. I think Art de Roche wrote a really good piece about this in The Athletic where he kind of, I'm paraphrasing for Art, he kind of expressed it much more eloquently than this, but it was almost like, screw all that stuff.

18:11This guy's great. Yeah, exactly. I can get on board with that.

18:14Tim Stillman: You use your eyes and see what he does and what he can contribute. I do think as well, you're, I mean, what you say about Arteta and what he wants from the attacking elements of his team, I think you're right. And certainly last season, like you couldn't watch a press conference in January without him talking about the need for a striker. He never came out and was like, we must get this now, blah, blah, blah. But like, if you read between the lines, I think you're right that he did want something and he does want more. The sort of devil's advocate to, for want of a better phrase on that is, is look at what he's done in the transfer market to address that issue.

18:56Tim Stillman: And I think it was Sam Dean who put up a post yesterday on Blue Sky about how we've bought more goalkeepers under Mikel Arteta than we bought forwards, which, you know, I get. But I think there's something quite circumstantial about forwards as well. And also, I don't know if we need to go into the weeds of Sesco or Jokeres or whatever it is at this point. This is very tedious because I think there is a vacuum of information which is being filled by more and more speculation as we go on. But maybe the one thing we can take away from what's happened or what hasn't happened so far this summer is that it's not easy.

19:39Tim Stillman: If it was easy and Arsenal knew what they wanted and it was easy to do it, I think they would have done it as quickly as possible, but they haven't been able to do it yet or they're biding their time or Andrea Berta is like keeping both parties sweet. I don't know what it is, but we know for sure that nothing has happened. So maybe there's something a little more complicated about buying forwards than buying other positions. Yeah, definitely. I mean, the absolute fact that we know is in the last two transfer windows Whereas before this one, we bid for centre forwards because we bid for Sesko last summer and we bid for Watkins in January.

20:13So it's very clear what Arsenal have wanted to happen there. Very, very clear. So I think that definitely, obviously there are other contexts like Saka and Martinelli were already there.

20:25Tim Stillman: Sure. When Arteta came, I mean, he did try to sign Mudrik, which if you're looking for a Maverick attacking signing, probably Maverick in the wrong way, it has to be said. But, you know, but even a player who, like, when he was playing well for Shakhtar, I mean, he's a chaos merchant, right? That's not your kind of, I want this guy to run in straight lines with short back and sides kind of attacker. Those deals, they are just more difficult to do. Like, of course they are. And I kind of think that's reflected everywhere around the league other than Chelsea. Yeah. Who are maybe making the market more difficult because they're buying every attacker.

21:03Tim Stillman: All the forwards, yeah. That ever existed. Although they had issues at centre-forward last season, actually. They've got loads of wide forwards and loads of tens. But, you know, when Nicholas Jackson got injured last season, they were playing, they didn't have a recognised striker. They were playing like, I think Neto played as a false nine in Kunker. So, you know, and like Liverpool have wanted a centre-forward and they haven't been able to get one. So I do think there are other contexts. Obviously, you come to a stage though, and we're definitely at that stage and probably past it where you can't just keep saying that forever.

21:40And I think Arsenal know that. I would be absolutely shocked and amazed if they didn't buy a striker this summer. And I just can't see a world where they don't. If they don't, I will join everyone with the pitchforks because that would genuinely be negligence. But I just don't think it's going to happen. So I'm not actually that worried about it. Like the way I view it, we clearly have two targets. It doesn't look like we have a great deal of competition for either of them. So, you know, at the moment I'm relatively relaxed about it, but obviously the longer the summer goes on, you get towards preseason and all of those markers and things like that.

22:22Like, obviously it gets a little bit more antsy. And, you know, I know a lot of people have said this, but I think people would feel a lot better about the business we've done or are about to do if a striker preceded them. You know, I think the order of business matters to people's kind of perception of a transfer.

22:40Tim Stillman: Yeah, I don't think it matters to the club in the same way because they just want to get the pieces in place before the start of the season. And it's not about the sentiment of the fan base. But yeah, listen, this is where I kind of feel a little bit sorry for Martin Zubimendi in that he is a really, really good signing for Arsenal. But because it's been in the post for so long, By the time it's announced, everyone's like, OK, great. We've got it announced next. You know, and I do feel sorry for him in that sense. Not that it matters that much, because I think over time when he starts to play for Arsenal, people will appreciate what he can bring to this team.

23:17Tim Stillman: But yeah, that one about Cesco and Jokeres is the thing. And listen, I think we're into the realms of the absurd now with the reporting around both of these transfers. Or is he broken up with his girlfriend because he doesn't want anything to tie him to Lisbon? Women are allowed on planes, guys. They can travel to other places too. It's just... I think the other thing we forget as well, I think, it almost reminds me of pre-season friendly results, how disposable all of this actually is in our minds. Once the season kicks off and they're there, I promise you, we never remember this stuff. It's like pre-season friendly results.

23:59Can you reel off our pre-season friendly results last summer?

24:02Tim Stillman: I mean, I was at some of those games because they were in the US, but I think we played Bournemouth and it might have been a 1-1 draw maybe. But that's the thing. None of this matters and stuff like how long it takes to sign players. This isn't going to be something that people should fondly remember, but you know, one of those on this day things came up the other day and it was us signing Petr Cech from Chelsea. And I really, it really made me remember how impatient people were for that announcement because we'd kind of known about it, I think since about April or not. And it just felt like forever.

24:42And obviously the context of that summer is we did literally nothing else, but I really remember people being like, announce Cech, announce Cech, announce Cech. Like who, want, I mean, largely, I mean, he wasn't terrible, you know, but who remembers that now? Who remembers like the order of business? Like it, it, it, it kind of matters for how you start your season and stuff, but ultimately this, this stuff, it kind of, it just doesn't matter. And in two months time, no one will be talking about how quickly we signed a striker unless it happens on August the 31st and we got zero points. That's the only way that people will remember.

25:19Like we remember the trolley dashes in 2011 and to some extent 2021 when we messed up the start of the season. Yeah. Yeah. And when like people remember that, um, cause it's tied to results, but really other than that, relatively extreme circumstance, like no one remembers like whether you sign someone on July the 5th or July the 10th is kind of irrelevant.

25:44Tim Stillman: Yeah. I just looked up the Arsblog News story about signing Petr Cech back in 2015. There's a little paragraph at the end saying, Cech is only the fourth Chelsea player to make a move to Arsenal in the Premier League era, following in the footsteps of William Gallas, Lissana Diara and Loney Yossi Benayoun. So, I mean, we had a question then on the, I looked for a few questions from our Discord members. And this one comes from Arteta's Pickpockets. And he says, can I get your honest opinion on Madueke? So Arsenal are being linked. He's one of the names that Arsenal have been linked with in the wide positions.

26:27Tim Stillman: Nani Madueke of Chelsea. Morgan Rodgers is mentioned. Rodrigo is mentioned. I think there's zero chance of Arsenal signing Rodrigo this summer, by the way. That's just a personal opinion based on no information. I think it's just kind of funny how he's become the sort of main focus of attention for a wide player coming into Arsenal. But I'd be so surprised if that happened. It feels more likely to me that we might sign Nani Maduweke from Chelsea. How do you view that as a deal? Do you think it matters that we're signing yet another player from Chelsea? Is it a consequence of Chelsea just buying all these players and then not having room for them so they become available?

27:12Tim Stillman: Like part of the reason we bought Havertz was because I can't remember who they brought in that summer, but it was like, well, he's available, so let's get him. I understand, by the way, that there's a sort of an element of disquiet about like, oh, God, not another guy from Chelsea. I completely get it. But what's your thoughts on Maduweke and any potential deal for him? Let's start with the kind of former Chelsea player thing first. I just couldn't care less. I understand it, but I kind of think it's a bit irrational. Like if you're signing a good player, you're signing a good player, regardless of where they come from.

27:43And actually, I think our record of buying players from Chelsea recently hasn't been that bad. Like we didn't buy Raheem Sterling, you know, so like Havertz, I think it's been really good. Jorginho was decent.

27:56Tim Stillman: We've got Willian trauma though, Tim. We've got Willian trauma. Yeah, like don't get me wrong. There have been some real stinkers and Willian's the biggest one. Even Louise and Cech, they weren't terrible. Willian was terrible. There's no two ways about that. And actually, we got very lucky that it was so terrible that he wanted to pay money to leave as much as we wanted to pay money for him to go. Yeah, I think they met in the middle on that one, I think. Yeah, it was a bit of a mutual nightmare because he hasn't done badly. To be fair, he left Corinthians because their fans were threatening his family because he was so bad um that's pretty bad yeah yeah and that's his childhood club as well um but you know it was okay for like for whatever reason it just did not work whatsoever but um so i i don't really care about that and like you say the more players chelsea buy i think the more you know just by virtue of numbers but the more chance there is that there are going to be good players who can't get a look in there that are probably going to be available i think it It makes more sense now than it did a few years ago.

29:03On Madueke, I'm very dubious, to be honest. I haven't really liked that much what I've seen from him. And I would have to at least initially trust that maybe, you know, the talent spotters at Arsenal and Arteta think there's more there that they can get out of him, as they have with Havertz. To be honest, I think they've definitely come a lot closer to realising the talent of that player than Chelsea did. But the kind of the wide left position, this is the one I'm really, really interested in. So I think we're going to sign a striker. And whether it's Cesco, Giocarez, Watkins, I think they're all going to improve us because we have one striker that's fit and available.

29:48So that is a numbers thing. Like we don't have a second striker. So we literally need one. So even if they're not amazing, world-class, Like if they contribute some goals, they're literally competing with like Mikel Marino playing up front. That's the situation we're in. Whereas left wing, we've got two players there and we've got two quite good players, but maybe we're trying to upgrade there. That's what we're trying to do. I'm not convinced that Madueke is better than Martinelli. I'm not convinced that he has any of the things that frustrate us about Martinelli. I don't see Madueke personally as a kind of antidote to that.

30:29And I think the other interesting thing about our, should we call it an issue on the left wing, we've got two left wingers who are completely different in Martinelli and Trossard. And sometimes that diversity can be a strength, but sometimes it can upset the way you play when you're asking. So I'm really interested in what does Arteta really want from a left winger? I suspect it's more towards the Martinelli model because he wanted Mudrick before he wanted Trossard. Trossard was kind of a bit of a market opportunity. So I suspect he probably wants a better maybe approximation of what we get from Martinelli.

31:09I am to be convinced that Madueke represents that. And actually, I'm not seeing an awful lot on the market that I genuinely, with my heart of hearts, feel is better than Martinelli. I definitely be up. I'm up for an upgrade in any position. I don't care, but I definitely probably see the need there to get a little bit more. I'm just not convinced by what I see on the market. And I think it's going to be a really interesting problem for us to try to solve.

31:35Tim Stillman: Yeah, I agree with that. And that's where I've sort of always had these reservations about Rodrigo, because I think the fee plus the wages plus the stature of that player, you know, it doesn't really represent sort of value for money, for me anyway, when you already have Martinelli. I suppose the thing you might say about Rodrigo is that he can play both sides. And I think based on the reporting that I've seen from David Ornstein and from James in The Athletic is that they view Matueke as somebody who can play on both sides as well. Well, and I wanted, I mean, my two cents on Matueke is he brings pace to the team, which we don't have a huge amount of.

32:20Tim Stillman: Martinelli is our pace guy and Matueke certainly brings some of that. But I feel, you know, from a technical level and everything else, I'd be quite underwhelmed. It would all depend on the price that you're paying for him as to how well you might view that deal or how favorably you would view that deal. but I find him a little bit underwhelming, perhaps a bit basic, if that's the way of putting it. But I did want to ask you, based on what we've seen from players who've been linked with Arsenal this summer, Leroy Sané, for example, was a player linked very heavily with Arsenal, can play on the left, but also does play on the right-hand side.

32:59Tim Stillman: Matueke, you could say, is a guy who could play second fiddle to Bakayo Saka, but also play on the left if you needed him to. If you had that kind of situation where, you know, without Martinelli or without Trossard, you have another option for that left-hand side. I mean, is it more accurate to say that Arsenal might have been looking for a right-sided attacker this summer than a left-sided one? Yeah, could well be. It could be. And maybe they see Eze that way. I don't think I've ever seen him play there. He's played there for England and has played a bit there for Palace, but I don't think that is the position in which he's best.

33:40No, no, no. But that's clearly because my real take on last season is that Arsenal were quite unlucky and actually did well to do what they did. And it shows that we have the foundations of a really good team. We're really well coached. I know not everyone feels that at this moment. That's what I feel personally. However, where I think obviously there has to be self-reflection, You have to reflect on the last two transfer windows, definitely. But where we really have to reflect is the injuries. Like when you get four torn hamstrings in a season, I think you've got to reflect and say, there's a degree to which that is bad luck.

34:21That is not 100 % down to incompetence, but there's a spectrum there. And you've got to look at what is the slice of the pie that says we could have done something to make that less likely. And so that's why I really like, like you, I really like the links to Mosquera. I really think that's an important position to fill. I think maybe last season we underestimated the impact of those extra two Champions League games. We went quite far in the Carabao Cup, which I kind of wish we hadn't, to be honest, in the kind of sweep of the season. Not least because we really lost two players in that second leg in Martinelli and Havertz.

34:59I know Havertz didn't get injured in that game, but it was immediately after. I think getting that far in the competition actually really hurt us. But you can reflect and say it shouldn't have. It shouldn't derail our season to go deep in the domestic cup. So there's definitely got to be some reflection, and that definitely means obviously having, quote-unquote, backup for Saka is kind of impossible, but having someone that you trust to play there a bit more than we think he can do a job. And obviously that calls into question what plans they have for Nuaneri and things like that. So I think that's definitely part of it.

35:37But I was going to say, as I kind of bolt on to the other question, sorry, to what I was saying earlier about Madueke and in general our search for a wide player, I think so much of it is actually connected to not having Gabriel Jesus anymore and not having the qualities he brought. I think that almost puts more pressure on one or both of the wingers to have some of that devastation because Jesus was a player who could love to take the ball, dribble, go at players. And perhaps having Havertz up front, he's more of a combiner, connector, really safe, technically, pair of hands. But maybe in not having Jesus, we've lost a bit of that unpredictability and devastation, and maybe that puts more pressure.

36:21I mean, Saka provides it. That's fine. No one's arguing about that. But maybe, like, I feel like with Martinelli, the loss of Gabriel Jesus next to him has had a big impact on him. I think Jesus, like prime Jesus with working knees, next to Martinelli makes Martinelli a better player. And I don't think maybe Havertz does that. So there's another question there, I think, about our attack, whether it's through the centre forward or through another wide option, just needs a bit more of that kind of devastation. devastation I definitely think Jose is a player who can bring that which is why if we got him I'd perhaps dole that voice in the back of my head that says like where does he fit in and yeah you know his age profile and all of that and I'd just go okay he brings something we don't have and you know Arteta over to you to make that work but I'm kind of for it so I kind of think there's a lot going on definitely about having a bit more cover for Saka but I think even from the bench as well just being like there were so many times last season like against PSG away I think there were times you know when Saka scores that goal and we come back into it a bit to be able to have

37:33Tim Stillman: thrown on another good attacker exactly would have made so much difference and we just couldn't and I just I remember being I remember being at the Villa game and it was 2-2 and there was about eight minutes left and Arteta had to do something. And the only thing that he had was Raheem Sterling. And we all kind of knew that that wasn't going to cut the mustard, you know? And when a manager who's desperate for a win and desperate for points is sort of waiting till about eight minutes to go to just say, well, fuck it. This is all I've got. I have to give it a go, you know, simply because I'll be accused of not trying something at least, you know, that's not a situation that you need to be in.

38:14Tim Stillman: I think, you know, credible depth, We talk about depth all the time. You've got players on your bench. Are they credible? Are they alternatives that the manager is happy to use and happy to turn to? That is, you know, the big question. You know, we had a load of kids on the bench towards the end of last season and one of the previous seasons as well, maybe the first title-challenging season towards the end of the season, again, because of the shortness of the squad and some of the injuries that we had. We had a load of kids on the bench. They never got on. Omari Hutchinson was one of them, for example, who ended up going to Chelsea and then played for Ipswich in the Premier League last season.

38:51Tim Stillman: He never got on because the manager didn't view them as credible. And we had a question here from Master John Bree who said, are we too obsessed with our first choice XI? I see a lot of debate. This is about Eze again. A lot of debate about where will Eze play in our team when everyone is fit? But this seems, besides the point, the best teams rotate between options of similar quality all the time. And is that the lesson for Arsenal going into this season? is that, you know, it's been either a bone of contention or a discussion point for as long as Mikel Arteta has been manager. It's about how you use your subs.

39:26Tim Stillman: Does he rely on too small a group of players because you're, I don't know, the stakes are so high that it becomes more difficult to take a risk. You know, if Bakayo Saka is a bit tired between two Premier League games, you've got a European game, but the European game is a bit tough. oh fuck I've got to play Saka I've got to play Saliba I've got to play Gabrielle these are the guys that are you know to have those credible alternatives I think is really really important so is that the part of the strategy of this summer is to look beyond first 11 first 12 13 14 in as much as injuries fingers crossed will allow us to do that that definitely and again I'd say the evidence supports that as well because I know like I'm not suggesting that people will be queuing up at the armory to get nor guard on their shirts but i think it would have been quite easy for arsenal to say actually we've got zubomendy rice can play there if we need him to but clearly what they're doing is no no no we don't want rice can do that if we need him to we want like death we want definitive options there so we can keep rice where we really want him and like definitely you know and i think you can tell the health of your squad as a fan base when you don't really talk about who's starting or the starting lineup drops and it doesn't really promote any discussion like there was a time you know a couple of seasons ago when man city might have been choosing between foden and mares and no one really would have cared which one of those was starting because they're kind of a of a similar standard it's i think like for example at fullback we have that kind of depth like let's say ben you know let's walk with me here and imagine this wonderful universe where Uri and Timber and Ben White are both fit.

41:13Tim Stillman: I love it. Like, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, hopefully next season we'll get that. I just can't imagine it will draw any comment. Who starts out of those? It'd be like, great, fine, brilliant. Like Califuri and Lewis Skelly. Great. Don't care. Really like play either one you want. Um, you know, maybe one plays Saturday, one plays Wednesday and definitely an attack. you want that attack is where the substitutions happen it's where particularly out wide you ask so much physically coming on against tiring defenders as well like all of these things that we just haven't really had now don't get me wrong if we were to sign as a i don't think it'd be on the bench very much i don't think you spend that much money you know maybe only a club like man City would make a signing like that and it you know bit like bit Jack Grealish you know we'll spend 100 million on Jack Grealish and he'll play 50 % of the games from the start like I think he'd play most games I don't know where but I'm sure he would but you know when and again we've probably got it a little bit with Martinelli and Trossard I don't think that promotes a lot of discussion even if we'd probably like actually we'd like one of those guys to be one of the guys that comes on for like player X.

42:30But that's when you can tell really when you just don't have those discussions about who plays. And we definitely don't have that at the moment. Like we literally don't have anyone we could put up front instead of Havertz.

42:45Tim Stillman: Apart from Mikel Moreno. And that's, you know, credit to him. He did a great job and he did his best. But, you know, that is a sticking plaster solution, right? That's one where if you get to the next season and Mikel Moreno is starting games up front, you either haven't done your job properly during that summer or you've had a really, really terrible slice of luck with injuries or whatever it might be, you know? Yeah. I don't remember caring too much who started on the right out of Wilthard or Jungberg, to be honest. Like, you know, I remember like that, that was a decision Arsene Wenger had to make quite often.

43:22I was like, okay, fine, either one. The other one's going to come on anyway at some point. Like, who cares, really? And the reason we probably do focus on starting XI is because we don't have that in the forward positions. And in truth, we haven't had it for a little while.

43:37Tim Stillman: Yeah. A question here from Biryani Rice. He said, I saw a report from George Bird about Max Downwind's promotion to the under-21 team. Would love to know your thoughts on his development plan, his chances of making any appearances for the first team this season. Listen, we're not anywhere as well-informed about Arsenal youth as George Bird. I don't think there's anybody who knows as much about it as he does. But I think this is a fascinating one because I think what Arsenal are very, very clearly trying to do is demonstrate to this young man that there is a pathway to him to first-team football at Arsenal.

44:15Tim Stillman: in a period when players are not allowed to sign contracts with clubs because of their age, and therefore they're poachable, if that's the right way of putting it. And there would be clubs, I think, in England and maybe abroad who would be all over Max Downman and would love to have him on board and try and tap into that potential. But I'm also cognizant of the fact that he's 15 and that maybe even discussing him here is doing him some kind of a disservice. But he's there and he is training with the first team squad. So, you know, we're not hyping him up per se, but we are. I just mentioned him.

44:54Tim Stillman: Yeah, you know, so how do you view that? Like, what should we expect? What's the right thing to expect from a 15-year-old beyond nothing? I don't necessarily think we should be expecting anything from a guy who in December could be, You know, when we play our first EFL Cup game, and let's say you get a favorable draw, you get a lower division team and it's at home and you have the opportunity to give some young players a chance, that's the moment where you're thinking, okay, can he do that? But like he's going to be 15, not even 16 until December, I think. There's pressure that comes with that, isn't there?

45:34Yeah, definitely. I mean, we did play a 16-year-old goalkeeper in exactly that fixture last season. it's so complicated because obviously you've got all of these things to balance like showing the guy you know showing any young talent a pathway but at the same time you want it to be within a culture where they earn it um so you can't just say we'll definitely give you this spot because they've got to compete for it but it's like if you do x y and z you know this is the pathway we see for you and i know like the club have staff that is literally just dedicated to that to like player development pathways and maybe you'll go on loan at this point or maybe you won't or you know and but then you've got to be open to the possibility that they just break through um that they just kick the door down and go here i am like maybe it's earlier than we thought it was but i'm i'm here now what are you going to do and then you've got all these competing pressures as well like you said about contracts and things like that and i think there's so much i don't know a better word for it than corruption as well when it comes to how some of these young players move.

46:39And that's what I'd really point to the work that Miles Lewis Skelly's mother does, where not only is she her son's agent, but she does a lot of like outreach and kind of workshops and stuff about like guiding parents through this kind of thing. Because like you probably don't expect it, do you? Like you've got a kid who's good at football and then all of a sudden you've, you know, you've got football clubs knocking on your door and offering offering like you know yeah yeah

47:09Tim Stillman: here's a house here's a job here's money for your 14 15 year old kid like those are things i think that for most average working people are very difficult to to turn down you know absolutely so you've got all of those pressures as well kind of under the counter stuff um but it's it's just and it's it's so it's so kind of difficult to navigate all of that it's difficult for the player it's difficult for the player's family it's difficult for the club because you can't really promise anything but you've kind of it's the same with Nguyeneri at the moment like what what what what do we sell to him at the moment as our vision for him you know because it's it's a bit like you're kind of in the team now you've had a taste of it you scored some goals but we can't tell you you're starting every week at this point and that's probably not good for you anyway but like what's your route in yeah versus the fact that we're trying to win the league here and if we don't win the league this season like the world's going to end and sure you know people are people are going to get really so people are already really getting stuck in so you've got all those competing pressures and i think you know i think there is an element as well to which for i I, he's clearly, he's like an unusual talent in how quickly he's developing.

48:27But I think you're right. I think from our point of view on the outside, we should place no expectation. Maybe at the most, we should be saying, my God, this 15 year old's playing for the under 21s. That in itself is, is pretty impressive and pretty massive. And I think you've kind of just got to look at it as like, if he gets on, if he gets on a bench and doesn't come on, this season. Like, that is incredible. Like, no one does that really. Occasionally you get 16-year-olds on the bench in Premier League games. But, and look, this time last... When Ari was one of them, you know, a couple of years ago.

49:05Exactly. And look, this time last year, and this is what I mean sometimes about players arriving more quickly than you expect. This time last year, no one was talking about Miles Lewis-Skelly becoming the first choice left back but it happened it there were some circumstances that led to it but it happened and it largely happened because he's really really good and he probably developed much quicker than than anyone really expected maybe even than he expected so sometime you've got to be flexible enough to allow events to take you over as well and i don't really envy anyone doing that job um because it's probably a really difficult one yeah no i agree and i think

49:45Tim Stillman: as well you know you it goes back maybe to what we were saying a little bit at the start that if you were to talk about any 15 year old going to work every day and right we want you to perform at a really high level football is a very odd world it's a distinct world where we think okay a 15 year old could be in the arsenal team that's good you wouldn't have a 15 year old working down the minds these days. You're not allowed to do that. So I think there's also a duty of care on the club's behalf, you know, to look after the player, not just his teenage years. But, you know, there's physical maturity and physical development and mental maturity and mental development.

50:27Tim Stillman: And those things are part of, you know, what a club is responsible for. As talented as somebody is, you know, last year, Ethan Wannery wasn't allowed in the dressing room because of his age. So, you know, those are all things that people don't think about. But because somebody is really, really good at football, we say, well, let's do it this way or let's hope that he can do this, that and the other. So let's just see how it goes. Max Downey is two and a half years away from being allowed in the dressing room. Yes, that's how young he is. Exactly. That's how young he is. Tim, there was obviously some good news this week on the Arsenal women front.

51:04Tim Stillman: Chloe Kelly signing officially with Arsenal. I don't think it was unexpected based on how that loan move went and her part in the fantastic success that Arsenal women achieved last season, winning the Champions League for the second time. I'm sure you remember that well. But, you know, can you just sort of quickly take us through from January to now when that deal was done, like I said, everyone wanted it. By the time the season was coming to an end, everyone wanted Chloe Kelly to stay. But when she arrived on loan, was there an expectation that that might be a possibility or was this just a solution to the situation that she found herself in at Manchester City because she was on the outs with the coach and she wasn't playing and a player of her caliber and quality couldn't be sitting around.

51:57Tim Stillman: I know she spoke a bit about this publicly as well where she had thought about taking a break from football because the mental strain of it and everything else, she just wasn't in a good place and wasn't having a good time. And all of a sudden, here you are, a Champions League winner with the club you started at, and now you've got a contract. So it's been quite a journey in a short period of time. Yeah, definitely. I felt at the time that it would be short term. I thought, oh, this is a good loan. This is probably mutually beneficial. It's the context of the Euros, now started. England play their first game on Saturday.

52:31she was in danger of not making that squad indeed the february england squad she didn't make because she hadn't been playing basically so she needed to move to play and for most of january it was manchester united that that really wanted her but man city had a problem understandably i think sure with facilitating that not just because it's manchester united they were in direct competition for the last Champions League slot, which actually United got in the end. And so it was like a double, like we really don't want her to go to United. We don't want a strength and a rival. We don't want... And I'm sure City didn't really want her to go to Arsenal either, to be honest, but it was probably the lesser of two evils.

53:15And around 24 hours before the deadline, you know, she did what a lot of footballers do in this circumstance. She fired up the Notes app. She wrote a statement. put it on her Instagram and effectively force the move, which I think is fine because Man City were in a position where they weren't prepared to play her. I think if a club from abroad had seriously come in, I'm sure they'd have facilitated that. No problem. But, you know, so there was a little bit of forcing through. Arsenal had a gap for a wide player that they've had for ages. To be honest, they've been a wide player down for at least three years.

53:52So it was definitely a very convenient move for Arsenal as well. But despite being from London, actually a QPR fan, that's where she's kind of from, and she came into the Arsenal Academy, she was very settled in Manchester. So I always felt she'd probably end up at United. But I think what happened very, very quickly was the mutual kind of beneficiary of this move became pretty clear. I know that Arsenal decided pretty quickly they wanted to keep her. And that's not just because of what she did on the pitch, off the pitch. Renee Slagers has a real model where she not just encourages, but demands tactical input from players.

54:36She wants to know what they think. She wants them to contribute in team meetings. She'll kind of randomly pick on people and she'll say, this is how our opponents on Sunday, how they play out from the back. How do you think we should tackle this? Like she's got a real, like players have a stake in things. And I know that Chloe Kelly really impressed in that respect as well, that she's very kind of competitive in training, but also lends her ideas a lot, which Renee Slagers loves. And Chloe Kelly, I think, really valued that. She'd gone from a position where she'd fallen out with her coach to the point that he wouldn't play her anymore to coming into this environment where not only is she valued and being selected, but the coach is asking her for her ideas.

55:20So she's completely turned things around. What I felt was quite amusing about the situation, though, I mean, like I said, Arsenal made the decision early, we want to try and make this permanent. But what's quite interesting from Chloe Kelly's perspective is her contract at Man City ran out, so we've done this on a free, but she hadn't signed a club contract since February 2022. Obviously, the women's game has kind of exploded since then. She scored the winning goal in the Euros final for England since then. So the kind of contract she can get now, particularly now she's 27 and this is going to be the best contract probably she ever gets.

55:57Like clearly there was still completely understandably like a negotiating side. So even though all of her interviews were like, I love this manager. She posted something on her Insta stories of a selfie with her and Renee and she kind of said, this is a proper manager and all of that. She couldn't hide like the smile on her face. she couldn't really say publicly i definitely want to stay yeah because obviously there's a negotiation yeah it's a negotiation and understandably like her representatives are asking for quite a big contract and they had leverage as well because like you've already got the player and she's already in your team and playing brilliantly so obviously they have leverage as well so you had this really really kind of weird dance where you've got the player clearly wanted to stay, but just couldn't quite say.

56:44She literally jumped out of her car at the parade next to the Tollington, ran into the Tollington. Had a dance. In with the chant of Chloe Kelly, we want you to stay, and then got back in her car and drove off. And I think when you've got that, like all the other stuff about being settled in Manchester, you're not going to Manchester United after that. And of course, winning the big shiny trophy in May and starting in the Champions League fight. I kind of think the mind was probably made up well before that, but that kind of helps as a recruiting tool as well.

57:17Tim Stillman: It was probably, I won't say easy, but I think, you know, if Arsenal wanted her to stay and she wanted her to stay and her reps wanted her to stay, it's sort of like, I think sometimes negotiations can be tough. Sometimes it's just about like finding what's good for everybody. And obviously this is great news for Arsenal women. Just very finally, we're in the summer, obviously, The Euros are going on, so there's a bit of focus on that. I think Renee Slagers is involved with BBC's coverage, is it? BBC, yep. So she'll be visible to fans who are watching those games. But what are we expecting from Arsenal in the transfer market on the women's side?

57:59Yeah, so the only other one I can really know about and can talk about at this moment in time is a story we broke on June the 9th about Taylor Hines coming in from Liverpool, who ironically came through Arsenal's academy and left on the same day as Chloe Kelly in 2018. She went to Everton, Liverpool. And that's a bit of a Norgaard-type signing. That's probably a squad cover signing. She can play both full-back positions. Arsenal have got a situation where their right-back and their left-back are absolutely set in stone. Really, really kind of world-class players. And particularly on the right side, finding cover there is really difficult because Emily Fox might be the best right back in the world.

58:40So signing someone who can only play right back isn't going to happen because no one's going to sign up for that. So a bit of cover on both sides of the kind of full-back role. That's another free transfer from Liverpool. After that, there's nothing else I can say, certainly, at the moment, but it's going to be really interesting. I think Manu Zinsberger will probably move on and there'll be a need for another reserve goalkeeper, but nothing that will get the pulses racing. But they're interested in a player called Olivia Smith, who had a brilliant season at Liverpool last year and won Young Player of the Year.

59:14Well, she's nominated for PFA Young Player of the Year. Exactly the sort of player Arsenal need. Younger, speedier, winger. Sound familiar at all?

59:25Tim Stillman: Is it an age profile summer from Arsenal? Because there might be a bit of balancing going on there. It should be. It should be. They're going to have, by the end of next season, if everyone who's currently there stays, that's nine players who are going to be 30 or over. So they have to bring that down. Olivia Smith's 21. I don't know if that will get done. I think it's going to be very difficult because she's Liverpool's best player. They want a lot of money for her. So that one I think might play out. And the market is going to be quiet now because the Euros have started. So all the agents and all the managers, they're all in Switzerland.

59:59They're all talking to each other and stuff will happen in cafes and stuff. in Arsenal.

1:00:05Tim Stillman: Arsene Wenger at the 2014 World Cup where he's sort of, oh, look, there's Alexis Sanchez's agent. I'll have a chat with him. Exactly. That kind of stuff's going to be going on and hopefully I'll hear about that in a couple of weeks' time. But like, so there's a very distinct order to the summer where basically all the free transfers, which happen a lot more in women's football, are happening now because contracts are up and now you're getting the announcements and everyone goes off to the Euros. It all goes quiet. and then in August it'll all take off again. So I imagine I won't be hearing about stuff for a couple of weeks until maybe some of those conversations in, you know, I guess they're not smoke-filled cafes anymore.

1:00:46No, not anymore. In cafes and like over salads in Switzerland and all of that. That'll all kind of come out in the next few weeks. But I think Arsenal, they definitely need to bring the age profile down. And unfortunately, Champions League prize money is basically non-existent. It's 1.5 million, I think, which I think Arsenal probably spent going to the final and getting all their staff out there and, you know, chartering a plane and all of that. But obviously the trophy itself is a massive, like, as a massive recruitment tool, as I'm sure you can imagine.

1:01:24Tim Stillman: For sure. Okay, well, look, no doubt you will keep us up to date throughout the summer on our spot news with all the developments with Arsenal women. we better leave it there tim thank you very much indeed for being with me uh today a slightly sensitive one to kick off but appreciate it very much and we'll chat soon yeah absolutely my pleasure as always early detection can change everything but early stage colon cancer often shows no symptoms at all that's why screening matters aunque te sientas bien if you are 45 or older and at average risk it's time to screen for colon cancer colorware plus make it simple It's a non-invasive test, without preparation, that you can do at home in about 15 minutes.

1:02:05Tim Stillman: This is something you can do on your own time, your own rhythm. Talk to your provider or ask it online today. Talk about what is not said. Available by prescription only. Hey y 'all, Kelly Clarkson here with Wayfair. You know my favorite compliment during the holidays? Your house feels so cozy. That's when I know everyone's comfortable enough to kick off their shoes, grab more dessert, and stay a little longer. Wayfair makes it easy with everything from dining furniture to festive guest room essentials all in one place. So whether you're hosting for an afternoon or all weekend, everyone feels right at home.

1:02:39Tim Stillman: Get holiday guests ready at Wayfair.com or on the Wayfair app today. Wayfair, every style, every home. I'm Jake Stouck, co-founder and CEO of Serval. We built Serval to automate the IT work that slows companies down. Onboarding, password resets, access to applications, my laptop stopped working. While employees wait for help, their real work is put on hold. IT desperately wants to automate this work, and that's why they need Serval. You just tell Serval what you want to automate in plain English, and it's built. No drag-and-drop workflows, no expensive consultants. Employees get unblocked, and IT teams go from drowning in tickets to building what actually matters.

1:03:20Tim Stillman: With Serval, IT becomes the AI engine powering the entire company. This is a new way to run IT. We guarantee you'll automate 50 % of all tickets and we'll prove it to you in a free four-week pilot. Go to serval.com slash tickets. That's S-E-R-V-A-L dot com slash tickets.

1:03:50Tim Stillman: Thank you very much indeed to Tim. You can find him on Blue Sky. He is at tim-stillman.bsky.social. That is tim-stillman.bsky.social. So look, I'm going to leave it there for today. There isn't going to be an end bit after the music in this particular episode for what I think are pretty obvious reasons. So I would just like to thank you all for being here and thank you for listening as I always do, but I always appreciate it. And I think on days like today, it is worth reflecting on the fact that we're all here. I'm here to talk into a microphone. You're there to plug your headphones in and listen.

1:04:31Tim Stillman: And that is, even if we take it for granted, something to be appreciated. So wherever you are in the world, I hope you're well. Look after yourselves. Look after your loved ones as much as that is possible. I know circumstances for everybody are different and sometimes difficult, but do your best. And thank you again for being here. We will catch you on the next one. Until then, cheers. Bye-bye.

1:05:31I'm out.

1:05:58Thank you.

1:06:05Tim Stillman: provider, or ask it online today. Let's talk about what is not said. Available by prescription only.