Episode 836 - Going Mad-ueke

0:00Hi pod fans, Max Rushton here from the chart-topping Guardian Football Weekly Podcast. Don't like to crow. If you enjoyed the World Cup with us, you'll be glad to know we're back for the new Premier League season. Expect three episodes a week, questionable predictions and the biggest stories in soccer from the Premier League to the Champions League and beyond. Watch now on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

0:43Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. I have been typically putting the Arsecast out on a Thursday in recent times. Traditionally, of course, you will remember if you're a long-term listener, it was always a Friday. But the way things move so quickly in the football world and maybe football content world these days, you generally have to get things out as quickly as possible. But this week has been a bit of a strange week. There was a flurry of news at the start of the week.

1:21It went a bit quiet in midweek. So I said, let's wait and see, see if anything happens on late Wednesday, maybe Thursday. And I think it's fair to say some things have happened. Some news has trickled out about signings. We've officially announced a signing as well. And there are other rumors and a few bits and bobs going on involving some players perhaps going out the door rather than coming in. So we are going to talk about all of those things. It is a very warm Friday morning in Dublin. There's a bit of a heat wave going on in this part of the world. We don't usually get heat waves in Ireland, but I think today it's going to get up to about 28 degrees Celsius, which is pretty fucking hot for Ireland.

2:04So once I get all my work done today, and I think most of that work, based on what I've seen so far, will be moderating comments on Arsebug News about Nani Matueke, I think I'll sit in the back garden with a beer and a book and just enjoy the warm air, the sounds of birds singing, Lana trying to eat some bees. And maybe the police helicopter will go overhead once or twice to add a little bit of flavor to the background noise. But that's my plan. I hope your plan, whatever it is you're going to do today and over the weekend, is just as good and just as nice. The Arsenal men's team are away. They're in Spain at La Manga.

2:41Temperatures there are going to hit 30 degrees Celsius today. Only two degrees more than Dublin. They could have saved themselves a lot of money, actually, You just come to Dublin rather than fly all the way to Spain. Quick training camp in the Phoenix Park. A couple of pints of Guinness afterwards. Get the iron back into the body. All set for the new season. But anyway, they are in Spain, I guess, trying to acclimatize a bit ahead of the preseason trip to Singapore and Hong Kong. I'm going to be in Singapore for the two games against Newcastle and AC Milan. I am not going to Hong Kong because as much as I would love to see that place, I do not want to see Spurs.

3:19That's just what it boils down to. I want as little Spurs in my life as possible. And I think that is a maxim, a principle most of us should live by as much as that is humanly possible. Anyway, like I said, there are bits and bobs going on. There are stories. There's a lot of discussion, particularly around the signing of Nani Madueke from Chelsea. So we're going to talk about all of those things. And with me to do that this morning is Andrew Allen. Good morning, Andrew. Good morning. It's nice to be on the podcast. It's been a while. Yeah, it's been a while. Well, you've been away. You've been, you know, celebrating your newfound status as a married man.

3:56Yeah. Yeah. I've been to Sicily for a couple of weeks and I have to say anybody thinking about going, do it. It's amazing. Such an incredible place. Wonderful food, lovely people, great drink. Yeah. There you go. And there ends the promotion from the Sicilian Tourist Board. yeah i've done my bit now yeah yeah all of those free paid hotels are covered well that's it between myself and james and san sebastian and you and sicily you know we're expecting the big books to roll in we can be on commission perhaps definitely not the scotland of italy i have to say yes well we'll we'll try and figure where that is at some point in the future not now though not now We're here, obviously, to talk Arsenal.

4:39There is a bit going on. First, I think we start with the arrival of Christian Norgard from Brentford. The Brentford captain has arrived, ostensibly, to replace Jorginho in the squad. I know the sort of two deals that we did look a bit the opposite. Zubimendi came and Jorginho had gone, and then Norgard came in when Partey went. but that's the position within the squad that he is going to take. 31 years of age, loads of experience, loads of Premier League experience. I can't keep my window open because they're using an angle grinder out the back, fuck's sake, on a warm day like today, so I've got to close my window.

5:20But yeah, your cliff notes on that particular signing. Very practical. Does what we needed to do, did it quickly. I have to say you know he's one of those players who sort of flies under the radar a little bit doesn't he I mean it's not the type of sort of like big name guy that you're always kind of looking at when you look at the team sheet when Brentford are playing or anything like that but you know he fits a decent age profile and he's what 31 he's got experience he's had a sort of understated career journey I guess so far but it's very clear judging by the comments he made in his opening interview with the club, that this has really come as a surprise, but also is just a great reward for him continuing to plug away at being the best he can be.

6:11There are some sort of Arteta comparisons there, I guess, a player who played a bit further forward, who's sort of slid back into the holding midfield position, someone who's ended up at a big club later on in their career and stuff. So, yeah, I mean, he seems like a really nice guy, a smart bloke. I have to say, when I listened to the interview, I mean, he basically just, I mean, I know that they're compatriots, but he does sound exactly like a kind of mini Thomas Frank. I mean, he's got that same sort of quite genial voice, I think. Yeah, so I think it makes sense. I was impressed by how quickly, I guess, we pivoted in the end, although obviously why we had to pivot and come to that decision, you know, we don't need to go over that ground again.

6:56And yeah, I mean, I do think the experience side of things is important, even though he himself is going to obviously have to come to terms with his new surroundings. I hope it doesn't take too long for him to find his voice. I mean, we're not an inexperienced side anymore. We're not a young side, but I do think someone on the other side of 30 is not bad to have in the camp. And I think when you look at the other guys who are there, I think it'll settle in very quickly. Yeah, yeah, it's quite funny. I was just looking at some of the pictures. They're obviously away in Spain at the moment and they're doing their training camp and they're in the gym.

7:31And you just sort of see, I think it was Jurien Timber and Norgard just sitting there on their exercise bikes chatting away. And it's just one of those weird things about football. It's like one day you're here, next day you're somewhere else, and these guys are your mates now. These are your teammates. This is how football works. It's not a big surprise. Footballers move around all the time. And look, for people who want a bit more on Christian Norgard, we do for every new signing that we make a podcast over on Patreon, so we delve into the player and his career and what he can bring to the team, et cetera, et cetera.

8:07So if you fancy a bit more on him, you can find that on the Patreon. But like you, I think this is a pretty no-fuss kind of signing. You know, we had to get somebody in. You can go two ways, or you can go more than two ways, but I think you can go perhaps for the younger guy who comes in and has got that ability to develop, but you can also go to the other end of the spectrum and sort of, I think, you know, similarly, let's say, to someone like Mikel Moreno, When you sign a player of 28, there, thereabouts, you're sort of banking on them being able to just sort of slot in, plug and play kind of an option without any great period of adaptation.

8:47I know Brentford and the way they play is different from Arsenal and the way we play, but it's not like, you know, retraining this guy to be a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist. No, I think finding someone who's Premier League ready and available at that price and has the experience, I just think we couldn't have done much better, really. I mean, obviously, you could have looked at bringing in a young guy, a developmental talent. But if you've just invested in Zubomendi and spent the best part of€70 million, then what kind of a pathway are you showing that guy? I think there will be plenty of minutes for Norgard, I think, over the course of the season, but I'm not expecting to see him start Premier League games unless of Bermendis injured.

9:36And I think you have to be able to position that as the proposition to the player from the outset. And I'm pretty sure Norgard knows exactly what his status is in the squad, tier two, but still very important because over the course of a season, there's loads and loads of games. And, you know, I think, you know, we've obviously struggled in maintaining our form across four different competitions in the last few years. And I think, yeah, I think it'll be a fine addition. Yeah, it's sort of in keeping with the transfer business we've done so far. And I mean this with all due respect to the players involved.

10:15And I have said this before, I feel like the Zubamendi signing, people didn't get excited about that because they knew it was coming for so long. And then it was just sort of like a fatigue and ennui with the whole situation. And then when he does get announced, it's sort of slightly anticlimactic. But I do think he is a really, really good player. And I'm really looking forward to seeing what he brings. But in terms of the mood or what he does to people's sensibilities during the summer, you know, the business we've done so far, I think you can sort of say it's decent, but not necessarily that exciting.

10:48And I suppose it's the prospect of what might be exciting is what we're holding on to, I guess, for what remains of this summer. So that brings me slightly to Nani Madweke, who was announced last night. Arsenal and Chelsea have come to an agreement over Nani Madweke, a five-year deal, I think, a fee around£52 million. We don't yet know what the structure of that fee is, right? It sounds really expensive, and I think it is quite expensive. But in the current market, it's sort of what a player like that goes for. Like if Anthony Ilanga goes for$55 million, then I can sort of understand Chelsea looking for something in that region.

11:39I don't think the two are connected, but other players like Kudus, et cetera, in that bracket who are going for that kind of a price. So the payment structure could make this a much more, I don't want to say acceptable, but an easier deal to pallet for some people. if let's say 8, 10, 12 million of that is in add-ons, which if we end up having to pay that, we'll all be very happy because it means we've achieved something or he's achieved something at Arsenal because I guess it's connected to trophies much more than appearances. And if you're paying installments on that fee over the course of a five-year contract, I think they do deals now over three to four years anyway.

12:25Right. But, you know, if you're paying 10 million a year for this guy, it doesn't necessarily have to be as restrictive as it sounds when you see 52 million pounds. Why are we spending 52 million on this guy when we could be spending X, Y, Z somewhere else? Right. Yeah. I mean, I think we're all quite guilty often of looking at the headline price and just totting up all those headline prices across all the players that we're being linked with. And then coming up with a final figure and then going, OK, well, that's a huge amount of money. and is that going to cost us versus investing elsewhere in the squad.

12:59And I think, yeah, I mean, football finance is far more complicated than that. I understand why people don't like the headline price, but as you say, if installments work for us, if add-ons work for us, I think you kind of have to trust the club. I mean, they're the ones with the bigger picture right now. They understand all of the different moving parts. and if they're satisfied and want to move quickly on this, and the fact is they are moving very quickly on it, so they must be happy. Yeah, I'm kind of, I'm perfectly open to it. I mean, I think it's very obvious that Chelsea are a team, or a club, sorry, that like doing things in installments and add-ons.

13:39I mean, just look at the way that they amortize their contracts over long, long deals, right? So there's absolutely no reason to imagine why they wouldn't do that the other way around. I mean, I'm almost certain we're still paying for Haberts, right? Sure. Still getting the money there. So, yeah, I mean, it's fine. I think, as you say, you know, you look at what else is going on in the market, Kudus, Elanga, even Gibbs White, I guess, at 60 million. You know, I think if there were other players out there, you know, we were linked with Gordon and Rodgers, right? They're hitting kind of similar-ish numbers on the goal assist tally, I reckon.

14:17but we kind of assume them to be out of reach right the clubs don't need to necessarily sell but also if they were selling they would cost a lot more yeah large figure and also where do they fit like are they as likely to want to be a you know play second fiddle I guess because at the moment what we're presenting to Maduweki is an opportunity to play football for Arsenal but it's not guaranteed that he's going to be in the team from day one I mean Bakayo Saka is playing in his favoured position and we've got at the moment two players on the left and there's suggestions while he could play out there he's you know he's not played the majority of his football out on the left so um i think the interesting thing is that he's so keen to to move you know the personal terms are wrapped up quite quickly i don't think his wages are crazy you know i've seen reports suggesting that he's on 50k a week at chelsea and if we we give him a small increase on that he still comes in at significantly less than reese nelson who i assume will get moved on this summer so again you know wages definitely plays into the overall package so look I I what do you I mean what do you think of what do you think of the player I mean I know people's mileage varies on this right because some people are like and I get the point if you get madweke from anywhere else it's probably again I want to choose my words carefully here I don't want to say it's more acceptable but people wouldn't have the same problem as getting another player from Chelsea and people are fed up of giving money for uh to Chelsea some people don't give a shit about that some people don't really care you know where the player comes from as long as that player uh does uh does a good job for Arsenal you know and I think you know when people say right we're so quick to do a deal for Maduweke with Chelsea but we're dragging out the thing with Victor Jokerez and it's like there is a big difference right Chelsea stockpile players and literally have to sell at least five six players every summer so that makes them very willing sellers and as we know Arsenal are very very willing buyers from Chelsea you know we've we've shot there more than once whereas someone like Jokeres sporting are making it difficult for the player and they're making it difficult for any club that wants to buy him because they want to get the best possible price for their best player.

16:36A guy who basically scores all of their fucking goals. So it's a generational talent, right? Who they want to cash in on at the highest possible level. Exactly. And that's not the case here. So it becomes much easier to buy a Madweke than a Victor Jokic. So I think that should be pretty obvious to everybody. But like, do you have any strong feelings on the fact he comes from Chelsea? Or is that relevant to you in any way? Beyond, you know, all of our the loathing that we have for that as a as an institution just generally speaking look I mean it's not overly imaginative to go to Chelsea and buy a player and I understand that people like new shiny things and they like things to be different but again it's a bit practical it shouldn't I don't think in any way shape or form it should cloud your judgment of the player because the moment he goes on the pitch in Arsenal red and white, you're judging him on what he does in red and white, right?

17:34I think just because we've been slightly scarred by some other transfers, whether it was Willian or Sterling or Petr Cech potentially, I mean, I just don't feel like it does the player any service whatsoever to tarnish him with the same brush, right? All of these guys are individuals and they come for their own reasons. And look, frankly, the guy wants to join Arsenal and he's different to a lot of these other players who were at the end of their career. This is a 23-year-old guy who basically sees the best years of his career at Arsenal. So I think you have to kind of take that into consideration.

18:13When it comes to what else would we have done in that situation? Who else could we have gone after? I think that is a really, really, really big question. And I think, I don't know if you've had a chance to read Billy Carpenter's huge kind of piece reviewing all of the different options of players who are of a similar profile sort of to saka but options on in the wide areas and you kind of go through the list and you see lots of okay names some are completely out of reach some have already moved some are you'd be taking a bit of a punt on them you have to say and then um there's there's a load of players who we've already spoken about you know guys who fit the same bill you know gordon and rogers and kudos and lango and um i think what what we're going for here is someone who we think best fits saka's profile who's of the same age who's got similar things who we can improve and i think arteta probably backs himself to improve madueka in a system which is already well defined um you know if i i don't know i mean i keep looking at this and kind of people are stroppy about it for various reasons but you know if i gave you 500 quid to go and get an outfit and i said you had to go and get shirt shoes tie cufflinks um all the rest of it right if i start judging you on the tie and cufflinks before you've even bought the rest of the outfit i've got no idea how it's going to look you know and i'm standing there in my underpants exactly nice cufflinks there's a terrible image for everybody i'm sorry I think we do have to just show some patience.

19:48The club have obviously got a plan that they're trying to execute. When you look at the squad depth chart, you can see exactly where Maduweke fits in. You can see exactly where Norgard fits in behind Zubemendi. Mascara, the Valencia defender that we're chasing, clearly fits in as an understudy to Saliba because we don't have one there. Jokeres obviously would come in and bolster the attack. You can see where all of this is going. And then at the same time, you also go, well, we're not ruling out, it seems, Eberici Eze. We're potentially not ruling out a Rodrigo. There seems to be some flexibility in the budget to be able to do another deal.

20:28And that, I think, is really, really interesting, really exciting. They must either be backing themselves from a financial point of view to go and sell some of the fringe players as well, because there's plenty of money on the table there in Vieira and Zinchenko and having already got rid of Tavares. Nelson's another one who can net you. There's probably the best part of 75 million to 100 million available somewhere if you can do the deals. Now, we haven't seen Berta trying to really offload anybody yet, but get the deals that we need done done so we can focus on getting those ready for the first game of the season and a really tough start to the season.

21:10and then you can shift the rest of them as we need to in the next 50 odd days. You know, we've got 50 days of the window left. And by the sounds of it, you know, if Alanga's done, all right, sorry, not Alanga, Madueke's done. That's a good slip of the tongue. If Madueke's done, he's going to need a holiday anyway, right? So, you know, he'll slip in further down the line, but Jokka, as it sounds like, we'd like to get done sooner rather than later, potentially take him on the tour. so look I'm relatively kind of confident about what they're doing at the moment and there's time it's still very early it is there is loads of time and I do think you know the point about the the start of the season is an important one and getting those you know pieces in place before those first games is very very important I think any transfer is a gamble I think Madweke is a bit of a gamble no question you know there are aspects to his game that are exciting.

22:07There are other aspects to his game that people don't like as much. I thought Tim made a really good point, actually, in his column yesterday. And let me just bring it up here because it is something to consider. You know, the bench for our second leg Champions League semifinal against PSG was Neto, Setford, Tierney, White, Zinchenko, Trossard, Jorginho, Sterling, Calafiore, Butler, Oideji, Henry Francis, and Juan Airy. There is significant room for improvement there, particularly in the attacking side of things. It does look as if Madweke will be not second fiddle to Saka, but somebody who will play on the right-hand side more than the left.

22:58I had a look at the numbers, and I think nearly 200, senior appearances and he's played 11 times on the left. So that's not really his position. I don't think we've seen anything from Mikel Arteta to say he's the kind of manager who will buy a Lauren and make him a right back in the way that Arsene Wenger used to do with some players where he would see something in that player and then sort of refurbish them. Just put them in a different position and they would thrive in that position. That's not something we've really, really seen from Mikel Arteta. So I don't really view him as an option for the left-hand side.

23:34So it looks like he's going to play on the right. It does sound expensive for a guy who's going to be a backup player. But as we've said, the market is such that that's kind of what you've got to pay for a player like this. I mean, the other aspect of this is some of the reaction. And I know discussing online reaction is not always interesting or helpful, But it's hard not to draw some parallels between the reaction to the Madweke news and the way people reacted when we were linked with Aaron Ramsdale, for example. There was a lot of anger and a lot of frustration. And you're going to pay that much for that guy.

24:13He's been relegated twice. What the fuck are you doing? Which is, you know, the way people react. And I've seen some stuff about Madweke, which is, you know, pretty unedifying, I have to say. I think you can express concerns about the player. You can express concerns about the deal. You can express, as you have, the opinion that it's a bit unimaginative to go to Chelsea and get another player. But you can do all those things fairly rationally and normally without going down the line of some of the abuse and some of the stuff that I've seen with regards to Maduake. But there have been other players as well.

24:48Like Ramsdale is the best example where everyone, not everyone, but a lot of people were like, what the fuck is this? you're idiots and then he comes in he proves people wrong I'm not saying that's what's going to happen with Madweke but you know there is precedent there for a player who comes into a club with you know not just the pressure of doing well at the new club but he can't be blind and he's not blind to this stuff because he's had to turn all the comments off on his Instagram and stuff like that so it's another sort of level of pressure for a player to deal with when they come to a new club.

25:20I'm sure Arsenal will be able to say, look, it sort of happened with Ramsdale. He was able to do it. Havertz to an extent. Even Ben White. I remember people got 50 million. 50 million for a guy who's only played like one Premier League career. And listen, I'm not here to talk anybody into the deal or I'm not saying you have to like the player. I'm pretty underwhelmed by him as a player and I don't think the deal is brilliant, you know, even if I can see it from the other side. but you know the reaction is i don't know if it's particularly helpful yeah i mean i think as clive said on the arsenal vision podcast this week you can justify anything if you want to um so we have to just wait and see but what you and i and other people can do is control their own emotions and there's a lot of people out there who for whatever reason whether it's attention seeking or they're just young and kind of feel this is how you have to approach reactions on social media or whatever.

26:18I mean, I think people need to step back and just go take a deep breath, give everyone some space, look at it with a, you know, a focused mind and just go, I see the sense in it. I also see the risk. Balance those two things together. Time will tell. Judge the guy, as you say, when he plays. The problem is you're not going to see him play probably for quite a while because he's going to have some time off after this. And then by the time he gets chucked in, it might be, let's say, around the Emirates Cup. People are just going to be having this debate for a while because they won't actually be able to give the player the platform to go and persuade people otherwise.

26:55That's awkward, but it is what it is. And I think, you know, we've discussed and other people have discussed just the order in which deals are getting done. and you know if we could have got giocarez or sesco first up on the you know during the first uh transfer window of the summer i'm sure they would have done that but that clearly wasn't the way things were playing out um squad building is not easy i always describe it as being a bit like a rubik's cube um there's a lot going on there and you kind of can't make the next move until you've sorted sure one or two of the others so um it is about kicking it on though now isn't it you You know, if you've got your Zubimendi, your Norgard, your Kepa, even Madweke to an extent, if we assume, and maybe we're wrong, but let's assume that Madweke Saka is our right-hand side for next season.

27:46You know, he's not getting anybody out of their seats in terms of excitement, but, you know, maybe in other ways. But now it is about, you know, how you really raise the level and the signings that can do that. and the striker is obviously the main one. There's sort of all sorts of stuff floating around this morning about Jochores and how Andrea Berta left Lisbon without getting a deal finalized, and we've walked away because of 5 million. I think you really have to take a lot of the reporting around deals like this with a big, big pinch of salt. It sort of, it tallies in with transfer news in general that people are completely, and I'm guilty of this myself as well, I am predisposed to believing the most negative things about a deal when we're trying to get it done.

28:38And then when it's something positive, it's hard to see that that's going to happen. You know, I think anything that sort of fits into our agenda or our narrative or what we consider how the club operates in the transfer market is, oh, Arsenal are being skimpy over 5 million, 10 million. Yes, of course they are. but you know they've spent a load of money already and you know this is a club that bought Declan Rice for 105 million I you know I get it I get why people get frustrated over transfers but but there is a need to sort of step back and and just try and see does that make sense does that really make sense that we would do that or is that the reason why if we really want Victor Jarkarez are we going to let it go over five million I'm not sure yeah I mean it's it's a way that transfer reporting has developed over the last five or six years is interesting and it makes it difficult for the clubs as well right you know it's spoken to people inside the club who are quite frustrated about the amount of effort that goes into things like launch videos and all the rest of it and then actually because transfers are so sort of played out in public that by the time they come to do an announcement video and all the effort has gone into it the reaction is actually pretty muted yeah and you know whereas before that would have been a big thing you know the the reveal was quite important um something just occurred to me actually just in the process of kind of like what you were saying is just when when transfers have happened out of the blue it's interesting let's say like a fabio vier or a sambi lakonga you know there's kind of slightly unknown names that we've gone and added to the squad young younger profiles but players who we've spent a fair whack on but you know we've got excited about because we don't know anything about them you know we haven't watched them play at all we're kind of relying on you know the the scouting of foreign experts and whatnot and then they come in and actually they really struggle you know it becomes really really difficult and you're kind of like well from a club perspective you can't win can you you take a punt on a young guy that nobody's heard of and they don't work out and you've wasted a load of money you turn around you go well okay well this guy plays in the premier League, he's got a certain number of minutes under his belt, we have to pay a little bit extra for him.

30:51And you guys don't like that either. Yeah, yeah. It's complicated. It is. It is. And ultimately, the only way to judge a deal is by what you get from that player and what they produce on the pitch and how consistently they produce that and what they might do to help you achieve your ambitions and your goals and winning trophies. so yeah I mean I don't think Maduweki's price is going to be stopping us from making the purchase of Jokeres no I don't think the two things are related at all I don't think it's a case that we went oh well if we buy Maduweki maybe we can't buy that can't be the discussion it just isn't you know it doesn't make any sense on any level so look like you say he's away at the Club World Cup he'll need there's the fucking angle grinder again I have to close the window again and it's roasting.

31:42He will need a holiday. He will need a break. And I think, you know, it's important that he gets that as well, because it's been a long old season. He needs to brace himself for the Arsenal community. Yes. Well, you know, listen, I do think, you know, being serious that there is a big difference between, let's say the reception he will get inside the stadium on his first appearance versus what's happening on Twitter, right? 100%. no two ways about it. They're two completely different realms, you know, and thankfully so. So fingers crossed when he does arrive, he can produce. I'm going back to the assumption that he's going to play on the right, primarily.

32:27So we have a story this morning. It's sort of been rumbling for a few days involving Leandro Trossard and Fenerbahce. Generally speaking, as we've often discussed, transfer rumors that come out of Turkey, big, big pinch of salt. But this one is also prevalent in the Belgian press. It was reported in the Times this morning as well that he has agreed a three-year deal with Fenerbahce. It's now down to the clubs. Some talk of a 20 million pound fee. I don't know how that's going to play out. We'll have to wait and see. But let's say that does go through. And I'm not saying it's a sure thing. I'm a little bit skeptical about it.

33:11But let's say it is something that goes through. It's 20 million in the coffers, as we know. But then it also leaves space on that left-hand side, doesn't it? It's space that needs to be filled with another signing. Like, I don't know that there's anybody in the squad who can step up and play that role. Like, you could maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe at a push talk about Ethan Winery, but I don't see that. I think he's a central player. They liked him on the right last season. I don't see him as a left winger. So if Trossard goes, then we're looking at making another wide signing on top of Madweke and on top of, we assume, Victor Jokeres.

33:54Yeah, it looks like that, which is exciting. I mean, it kind of opens up a world of possibilities, doesn't it really? Who have Chelsea got, by the way, who can play on the left? Let's just go back there. I see they're trying to sell Nicholas Jackson now. I'm sorry, Nick Jackson. Yeah, exactly. Look, I mean, it's kind of – because you look at the names, you think, okay, well, Rodrigo can play left wing but would cost a lot of money. And I think there's a sense of, oh, he's Real Madrid, so therefore he must be amazing. And you kind of – I'm a bit skeptical about it. I think you and I have had a chat behind closed doors about what we feel about that.

34:36And neither of us are wholly convinced either that there's a huge amount to it or that, you know, it would happen and be the right fit. I mean, the money aspect of that is another consideration as well. Like he would be north of 90, 100 million probably based on what the reports are saying. Plus, you're looking at wages probably in around 300 grand a week, you know, which is a consideration whether people like it or not. It is a consideration. Yeah, I think, you know, if you're paying 50 odd million in the market for a guy who's 23 and got a few caps for his country, and then you've got a guy who's a regular for Brazil, but also a serial Champions League winner coming from a massive club who don't necessarily need to sell, but, you know, seemingly want to, you're going to pay a premium.

35:22That's just the way it is. yeah I mean it's it's it's quite yeah I don't think you sell Trossard unless you know you're going to get someone else and you're probably balancing the books and trying to figure out okay well how do we do that and I do you know Eze's not a left winger per se is he he's someone who could play out there but if you're saying I think Martinelli will play there the majority of the time and Maduweke could potentially play out there and maybe you've got someone in Yokores up the front who likes to run into that left channel you know maybe you're looking at tactical tweaks and how you might you know work it I'm not in I'm not entirely sure you know it's crossed my mind also with the Maduweke one that that could we potentially be discussing using Saka slightly differently later in games you know if you were to put Maduweke on the pitch would you push Saka inside we saw that little bit in the champions league semi-final second i mean we didn't have anyone else but you know we know bakai saka is good enough to play anywhere and he could be someone that you sort of start to move around make the opposition think a little bit i i it's at the moment though with with the left i think i think if you got 20 million for for trossard from fenobache which is ambitious but that would cover what you paid for him and this is a guy who's given you two and a half years of very, very, very solid play.

36:48You know, nobody made more appearances last year than Trostard. I think he's scored plenty of goals. He's scored important goals, made important assists. I think he's been really, really good. I don't think you could have asked for anything more from him given the way we had to pivot and did pivot from Mudrik. Really, really excellent player. And there'd be a bit of me that would be slightly concerned to lose some of those qualities as well because he seems to be someone who can compartmentalize being on the bench and still be effective when he comes off it. And that's a good quality to have. Would Eze, would someone else sort of necessarily fit that bill?

37:25I don't know. I did wonder whether, you know, Trossard being sold basically means you're likely to spend less on a replacement. Whereas if you sold Martinelli to someone big, you could then spend bigger on a replacement. I think the club might have been open to selling Martinelli if there was someone out there willing to spend 70 million. Yeah, but I don't think there is. I don't think there is. And then you still have to do that succession plan with Trossard at some point because he's 30, like not over the hill by any means, as we know. But, you know, getting into the September of his career, you know, in at least a summer or two, you're going to have to replace that guy in the team as well.

38:09I mean, I think it's pretty clear that you'd quite like us to buy Jose, but how would you see him fitting? I've got no idea. I mean, I don't see him as a left winger. I really don't. I think he's much better centrally. But we're so well stocked to left eight, you know, where you've got Rice now, because Rice and Norgaard mean, or Zubamendi and Norgaard means Rice is going to play left eight. Then you've got Mikel Marino, you've got Kai Havertz who can play there. and you've potentially got Ethan Rennery who can play there as well. So I love Eze. I love him as a player. I think he would bring some stuff to the squad and to the team that we don't necessarily have.

38:50Would he be an Odegaard alternative? Perhaps. Again, maybe there are tactical things at play that we're not 100 % aware of yet that might come out in preseason based on how we're going to set the team up and how we're going to play. But as a sort of, like if it was Trossard out, Eze in with Eze sort of earmarked as that guy on the left like I listen I could be wrong and people could be shouting at me right now as they're listening to this but I don't really like I've seen him play there for England and he's always looked a little bit isolated like away from the areas where you want him to be and want him to be on the ball so I don't I don't necessarily understand exactly where he's going to fit.

39:36But at the same time, if Arsenal were to do it, I would assume that there has been a plan, that there has been a discussion, there has been something, you know, put in place as to where they would use him and how they would use everybody in the team to ensure that he gets the most minutes or gets as many minutes as possible on the pitch. Yeah. I mean, I don't think you'd pay Eze's release clause and then play him in the position that he doesn't want to be in. Yeah. That would be weird, I think. It would be. Especially at this point in his career when he seems to have really kind of found his groove.

40:07It's, yeah, it's a conundrum. I mean, I'm glad I'm not the one having to make those decisions, but at the same time, I'm kind of excited to see whatever they come up with. It's quite possible, you know, that Trossard just doesn't move. You know, I do, there is a bit of me that kind of thinks we don't need to, it's not a sale we need to make unless we really, really have our eye on, you know, balancing the books or need to really want to buy Eze, I think, or a and other. But it's exciting. I mean, I don't think we've seen this amount of kind of incomings or proposed incomings for quite some time.

40:45It's quite unusual, I think, on an Arsenal, especially given that they're not just, you know, squad players. There's some, you know, it's all over the squad. Sure. It's certainly going to make pre-season sort of more interesting than usual, I think. Lots of initiation song videos. That's what we're going to get, I guess. They could start a boy band. The other player who's been linked with a move away is Fabio Vieira, who we know spent last season on loan at Porto. Did okay. Nothing particularly exciting about the numbers he put up there. They sent him back, said thanks very much. No sign that they would be willing to take their former boy home on a permanent basis.

41:27And he's been linked with a move to Serie A, to Parma, which of course is where former Arsenal coach Carlos Cuesta is now the head coach. So it might be two plus two equals five. But it might also make some sense because he knows the player. He knows he's probably available because he's, well, you know, I think when you get sent out on loan, when you come in as a high profile, but a not inexpensive signing back when he arrived, it was 35 million. and something like that. When you struggle to make it into the team on a regular basis, and then you get sent out on loan by Mikel Arteta with some suggestion that maybe, maybe, maybe you're not working as hard as you could to get into the team, it suggests that your future lies elsewhere.

42:15Serie A seems like a better fit to me for him than the Premier League. Yeah, I think so. I mean, he's not blessed with a turn of pace. And I think if Serie A, I mean, maybe this is a sort of an aged opinion, but it's not as fast as the Premier League, right? I mean, the Premier League is real hustle and bustle, and Fabio Vieira and his stick-thin arms didn't ever really look particularly comfortable. I think if there's a concern, like the fact that he's gone back to Porto, his boyhood club, and he hasn't really set things alight there, and they've accepted that they can't do a deal, you know we probably pushed him out over there hoping that he would bolster his value and i'm not sure he's necessarily done that so i mean he's got a couple of years left on his career so on his um contract at arsenal so i wouldn't be surprised if he's loaned again i don't think we if we had to get him off the books i don't think we'd just be like it has to be a sale this summer um i could see him loaning being loaned out to carlos cuesta a bit of a kind of Here you go.

43:19Thank you very much. Again, you know, I, I, I, I'm slightly cynical about that room, right? It does feel a bit, a bit like, okay, someone's gone. Oh, Carlos Crest is here. Who are Palmer going to sign? Oh, he was at Arsenal. Who's available at Arsenal? Oh, there's Fabio Vieira. He could fill a gap. We'll see. I mean, there haven't really been any credible rumours linking Vieira anywhere else. It has to be said. I know that he's only just finished at Porto and he's going to be off now for the best part of a month, but he will be wanting to sort things out sooner rather than later because you don't want to be going into a club just, you know, as the season's already started.

43:52It just makes life more difficult for you, especially if you've got to move abroad again, new league and all that. So, yeah, unfortunately, Vieira's been a bit of a disappointment, hasn't he? You know, and quite a costly one. But as I said, you kind of sometimes you just have to go through this process. Well, that's it. We paid fairly big money for a young player with potential that everyone was like, oh, that's a nice way of doing things, and it didn't work out. So there's risks with any transfer. I mean, there are other players in this squad when we look at what's happening. You assume that people like Alexander Zinchenko, Albert Sambi-Lokonga Carl Hain Carl Hain as they pronounce it Rhys Nelson you know there are players there whose agents you would assume will be working to get them first team football or regular football next season because it is not going to happen at Arsenal so you know to what extent you know is is that aspect of our summer business interesting to you or is it just a case of, look, these things tend to play out a little bit later in the window than early in the summer unless there's real determination on the part of a club to take a player, you know, a specific player.

45:22For example, we've heard about Fulham and Rhys Nelson. They might want to bring him back. They were impressed with him last season, but obviously the injury he had derailed his season there and we'll have to wait and see if they have some concerns about that but you know there is there is work to do on that front as well yeah and look I my attitude towards it is let's sort ourselves out first get the squad as we want it and then we can figure this out further down the line and look you know we've been so terrible at selling players in the last few years that if we end up pushing people out on loan or not getting the money that we wanted that will be frustrating but I think we need to win the league this year and I want the squad to be in the best position it can be for the opening game of the season and for us to be kind of charging at the finish line from day one this stuff will kind of resolve itself right players always end up moving and if it happens to be deadline day deals that take people away from the club so be it I'm much happier having a deadline day where all the focus is on players going out rather than coming in exactly yeah do not want to be in a situation when we're scrabbling around for goalkeepers and loan signings from Chelsea in the last minutes of the window, you know.

46:36No, no, we need to get that shit sorted. All right, we had a few questions. We'll round out with a few questions that we had from our Discord members on Patreon. Hoisin Crispy Owl. Mmm, delicious. He says, assuming the transfer is confirmed, how many goals does Jokeres need to score next season in the Premier League to be regarded as a successful signing. Is that too reductive a way to look at it? I mean, the way I'd look at it is Arsenal were probably 25, 30 goals short last season across competitions. A lot of those were in the Premier League where we just kept drawing games and didn't have anybody to turn those into wins.

47:17My attitude is collectively the players that we bring in have to get 25, 30 goals. I don't care if Jokeres gets 15 and Madueke gets five and Eze gets 10 or something. Collectively, we need to raise the goal-scoring level.

47:37Look, with Jokeres in particular, everyone's obviously very aware of his incredible goal-scoring record in Portugal. I think if you halve that... Yeah, it's still very good. It's still very, very good. And I still think even that would be quite a push for a player who's never played top-level football in England before. So, you know, if he hit 20 goals, I mean, hitting 20 goals in all competitions is not an easy feat. I mean, we saw last season that Kai Havertz had, what, about 15 before he got injured and ended up finishing as, was he a top scorer? Yeah, I think he was, yeah. But, you know, Saka was doing pretty well.

48:15But, like, we haven't had a striker since Aubameyang who's hit 20 goals in the league, I don't think. Yeah, he's the last one, yeah. So, look, 20 goals, I'd be very, very happy and impressed. I don't know that he himself would be. He strikes me as the type of bloke who'd be setting himself higher targets than that. Again, it will come down to how much we pay. You know, we don't know what that figure is going to be in the strategy of the deal or the rest of it. But, you know, if you hit 20 goals across all competitions next season, I would be like, good. Okay, what are the other players doing? Can we make sure people aren't injured?

48:49Can we make sure that they're also scoring? Erdegaard needs to add more. Saka's definitely got more in the tank. Martinelli has got a level that he was at that he's dropped from, so he can add more. I think we've seen that Declan Rice has got goals in him. He's improving his goal-scoring season on season at Arsenal, yeah. Yeah, and then there's the defenders. We need to get back to being potent set pieces again. So there's lots of options, But I think it wouldn't be a good move for Arsenal to put all the pressure on one player to suddenly be the silver bullet. Sure. Look, the reality is the Jocares fee will be somewhere between Hoyland and Anthony.

49:29And we hope, obviously, that he fares far more successfully than either of those guys. And actually, Lewis Hambrough wrote a really good piece on his newsletter about Jocares. I'll link to it. It's in the show notes. You can have a look at that yourself. and have a look. He looks at the player in some detail. So we're checking out. If you're, you know, more Team Sesco than Jokka is, it's a good read. So have a read of that. What about this one from Clarky249, who says, why do you think the high profile attackers identified by Mikel and the team have flopped? Mudrik and Vlaovic spring to mind. Is it a talent identification problem or is it that attackers are just in general a bit more hit and miss?

50:13Oh, that's a good question. Because the track record of Mikel Arteta buying attackers is, I think, hit and miss, right? It is. There's no two ways about it. It has not been a strength. I think he's bought brilliant defenders. He's bought very good midfielders. But in that final third, you know, and I think this is what feeds into some of the anxiety, angst, whatever way you want to put it, that people are experiencing this summer, is that this sort of low-level fear that maybe the talent identification for those positions is not quite the same as it is going further back. I mean, I think Gabriel Jesus is a really interesting example of what we did and people will be very split about whether or not he was a success or not.

51:00I mean, he was a success at the start and he completely changed him and Zinchenko, the team that we were. but then ultimately things came home to roost right he's not the most decisive player in the box he's had terrible terrible injury issues and that's basically led him to at the end of all of this probably end up being registered as a as a flop Mudrik Vlajevic I mean it's really hard to say I mean Mudrik I think obviously there's the off-field issues and the fact that he's now he's now banned for uh drug charges which is a completely separate thing to whether or not he was good enough quality.

51:37I think... Someone made the point actually to me online the other day that like you have to look at Mudrick through the lens of him absolutely not wanting to go to Chelsea. He did not want to go to Chelsea. He wanted to go to Arsenal, apparently was crying on the plane to London and everything. Like as hard as you try, if you do not want to be somewhere, if you've got your sights set here and then all of a sudden you end up over there, it's very difficult. you know i'm not saying i mean i i stand by the fact that he was a pawn in a in a big pr stunt that was linked to the ukraine russia war and the fact that ukraine big club shaktar were able to you know march out onto the middle of stanford bridge where abramovich had been kind of turfed out and present this guy as a kind of new savior and all this money and all the rest of it i think all of that was linked um and i've really felt for the guy and everything else that's happened is just awful.

52:35I mean, I don't know about him as a character, but just looking at it objectively and just standing away and going, it's a terrible thing to see a top-class athlete end up in that situation, whether they've done it themselves knowingly or not.

52:51Why has Vlajevic flopped? I don't know. Has Vlajevic flopped? I mean, he was obviously, I mean, he scored quite a few goals for Juventus. He's just maybe not been... They hate him, you know, I think. Yeah, he's not been Del Piero. He's not being, they don't like it. It just hasn't worked out, right? I mean, sometimes that's the way it goes. Everyone experiences that when you make a big money signing. They don't always work out. There haven't been a huge number of sort of outstanding talents that you feel Arsenal have missed out on, right? It's not like we were ever really in for Haaland and we were never really in for, I can't even think of it.

53:27Nico Williams, for example. I think we were interested but never really pushed for that kind of signing.

53:36I don't have an answer. What I can say is that I think for the most part, Mikol Arteta makes players better. And the vibe you get from the players when you hear them talk is that Arteta is good at explaining his tactical wants and desires and the players find themselves thinking about football in a completely different way. So I feel that whether his strengths maybe are imparting that knowledge on positions that he's more familiar with, you know, slightly more in midfield, I don't know, rather than attacking because he's not a striker. But I don't know. I don't know. I don't think we should also kind of get a complex about it.

54:23I don't know that just because some players didn't work out elsewhere, they might have worked out Arsenal. We don't know. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't help when Chelsea buy all the attacking players in the world. And that's only being slightly facetious, you know? It's such a strange setup over there. I wonder whether any other clubs will decide to follow their lead and try something like this. It seems very, very risky. They're constantly on the edge. You know, they must be paying huge amounts of money to lawyers and their transfer team must be huge. Their scouting team must be very, very big. Because there's a lot of admin that goes with signing players and moving them on.

55:05And, yeah, the associated finances and how you book those finances and whether you stay the right side of FFP, which they don't really seem to give a fuck about because, you know, at the end of it, they know when they're in trouble, Arsenal will give them 50 million for... Or they'll sell their ladies team to themselves. Yeah, or they'll sell some hotels to themselves. I mean, basically, they're just looking at all of the gaps and the rules, highlighting them and taking advantage. Yeah. I mean, on one level, you kind of have to go fair play, especially when the Premier League are then given the opportunity to their stakeholders to close those loopholes and choose not to do it, which is what happened with this whole sale of the women's team or the hotels and whatnot.

55:43And now you see Aston Villa doing it to cover their racks. Well, it's been the Chelsea way for a long time, hasn't it? You know, certainly in the Abramovich era. Okay, let's go out on this one. It's a long question. It comes from Rhian. He says, I have a theory that Arsenal have over the past 12 months or so suffered from title challenge fatigue, basically being turned on week after week, having to win every game, every point drop being seen as a season-defining moment is tiring for the players, for the staff, and fans too. I think it's why I feel the Emirates was also much flatter last season than compared to the previous two.

56:21Now that Liverpool have won the title at a canter, we were never really in it post-February, do you think it's been enough for everyone, player, staff, fans, to reset and go again? I've genuinely not been able to tune in between seasons, follow the transfer window, because the seasons themselves have been so draining. Could a host of new signings also inject a lot of the freshness we need to get over this? i i have to agree and say that there was a level of fatigue in the in the fan base i think about the title challenge but that was just because last season was such a grind at times i mean there were numerous reasons that we talked about over and over again whether it was pgmol decisions whether it was uh small moments just not quite going our way whether it was injuries whether it was red I mean, it was just, there were many, many reasons that added up to Arsenal and the fan base feeling quite overwhelmed by how difficult things were being made for ourselves.

57:21And when it becomes, when a gap opens up and you're chasing and you see that gap widening bit by bit, I mean, in my mind, the league and everything that happened after the second half of January was, it was just something we had to get through. our focus was not on the league and sure while people point to the 14 draws and all that kind of stuff i do think that a lot of that was just down to the fact that the players were not in a title race mode they hadn't down tools but their focus was elsewhere and um the games became boring you know there was lots of games where teams would line up in the same way against us and we'd do the same thing and we didn't have the answers because we didn't buy the players to fill the gaps that might have helped us and all of that so yeah look you hope that this is the year right you start again new faces um i think having a full summer off will help reset things you know i'm i'm very glad that we're not at the abomination it is the club as you continue to call it um i think there will be a new sense of excitement by the time the players get to the emirates cup or the the the Villarreal game.

58:33I think there'll be real interest to see what's what I am. I have to say absolutely gutted by the start that we've been handed by the, by the fixture computer because it would have been lovely to sort of, yeah. It would have been lovely to kind of maybe ease in with some games. Instead, we are going to be right in it, right? There's going to be the tension of a United game and Old Trafford that we always struggled to, to win at. um god liverpool city spurs i mean they're all it's going to be right back in it and um building momentum will be so so important because it won't take much we know to for people to to lose patience to start questioning everything so i think those first six or seven weeks before you really settle into a rhythm are going to be hugely important for setting the tone and um i good luck to us I don't know.

59:30Yeah, exactly. You don't know. Good luck to us. But I do know where Rian is coming from with that question as well, though. You know, Liverpool, I think you saw it happen to Liverpool. It definitely happened to Liverpool in those title races with Manchester City where they spent the next season exhausted and couldn't quite reach those levels because, you know, how do you get 93 points and not win the fucking Premier League? Lose one game and not win the Premier League. it's got to be just unbelievably demoralizing. And that has an effect on... Well, you're tense from the get-go, right? Every game you have to win.

1:00:07If we drop points, we're fucked. Yeah, physically and mentally, it's got to be exhausting. So it happened to Liverpool, but they've come back and came back and won things. So I think last season was definitely a regression in Premier League terms, but it does not have to be the start of a new trajectory. It's a little step backwards. You can go forwards again. And I think that's hopefully what we're going to do next season. I mean, I think looking at what other clubs have the potential to do next season is also interesting, right? I think we were so focused on Manchester City last season, at the start at least, that when they took their eye off the ball, and that was for various reasons, injuries and whatnot, there was a sort of assumption that we would just fill the gap.

1:00:51And actually Liverpool, who've been a very good, consistent side over the last few years, were there. I have really no idea how City are going to sort of shape up this summer. I think it would be useful for everybody if the league was a bit more competitive across the board. You know, Liverpool were winning games at a canter, it felt like. And I think what we need is for them to have some tougher tests to help us out, even if you know what I mean. I mean, we've got a very good record against the top six at the moment. something I never thought I'd be able to say ever again because I was, you know, for a good long time there, I was a bit worried, hide behind the pillow every time we started a game away at the big six.

1:01:31But yeah, no, it's, it's going to be really interesting. I mean, I, I definitely am excited and I was definitely one of those people who was willing to draw a line under of the last season very early on. And part of that was some of our football was a bit drab and boring at times, particularly at home against low blocks. We just didn't have the answers. We did the same thing every time. I'm hoping if we do what we seem to be doing, that we'll have some new exciting people to try and unpick the lock. Yeah, for sure. And actually, if it is more competitive, it gives you margin for error. Not just us, other teams as well, where you can lose a game or two or something doesn't go your way.

1:02:13It does not have to be fatal. So let's hope that is the case. All right, we better leave it there as ever. Andrew, thank you very much indeed. Thank you very much.

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1:03:06Found us and fell in love with us, Max. They can expect three episodes each week of occasionally insightful analysis covering the Premier League, Champions League, and beyond. Football Weekly is back. Watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. This is Nick and Jack from The Best One Yet, and we are excited to tell you about Walmart business. Staying ahead of business trends means moving fast and adapting quickly. Walmart business helps you simplify operations so you can focus on building the next big thing. Find exactly what your organization needs with their ever-expanding business assortment and everyday low prices.

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1:03:59Thank you very much indeed to Andrew. You can find him on Blue Sky. He is at aallensport.arseblog.com. That is at aallensport.arseblog.com. So that is just about that for this week's show. We will have an Arsecast Extra for you on Monday. And who knows what might happen over the course of the weekend. Hopefully some developments in terms of transfers, the ones that we really want, the striker, maybe another attacking player. Who knows? Will it be Eze? Will it be somebody else? We don't know. But maybe things will happen over the weekend. And of course, myself and James will talk about those on Monday in the Arsecast Extra.

1:04:38In the meantime, though, try and stay chilled. And I mean that in both the literal sense of the word, because it's very warm here, and also the kind of mental sense. None of this stuff is in our control. We just kind of have to let it happen. And there is still lots of time in this window to get things right and get things done and build this squad the way we all want to see it built. A little bit of digital Valium is required, I think. For now, though, folks, thank you so much as always for being here. Really appreciate you listening. Have yourselves a great weekend, whatever you get up to, and we will catch you on the next one.

1:05:14Until then, cheers. Bye-bye.

1:05:44I'm out.

1:06:01Hi, I'm Max Rushton, the host of The Guardian Football Weekly. Alongside me, Barry Glendening, my co-host. Hey, Barry. Hello. Now, although every American found us during the World Cup, for the two that didn't, what can they expect? Found us and fell in love with us, Max. They can expect three episodes each week of occasionally insightful analysis covering the Premier League, Champions League and beyond. Football Weekly is back. Watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.