Episode 846 - Microscope

0:23Kaya Kaynak: Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. Feels like it's been a busy kind of a week. Obviously, we played Manchester City on Sunday. That was a game which had people talking. My goodness. Genuinely, I think there were probably more comments on Arseblog news after the Man City game than I can remember in the entire history of the site. And I think the conversations around Arsenal in the early part of this season, whether they're among Arsenal fans, whether they're on TV, pundits, media, newspapers, whatever, I really do think they're kind of fascinating.

1:11Kaya Kaynak: There's a sort of multi-layered element to all of this, which I think is playing a part in how Arsenal are analyzed and spoken about. And we'll get into all of that today on the podcast with our guest coming up very, very shortly. But obviously, there was a game following the Man City game. That was a 2-0 win over Port Vale in the EFL Cup last night. Not exactly a game that got the juices flowing. But despite that, maybe it was kind of the game that Arsenal needed. There's a fair bit to unpack and get into in this episode. So why don't we just get on with it? And with me to do that, formerly of Football London, now with The Athletic, is Kaya Kainak.

1:54Kaya Kaynak: Good morning, Kaya. Morning, Andrew. How are you? I'm good. I've calmed down after all the excitement of last night. I say slightly tongue-in-cheek. Listen, I think there are some really interesting aspects of Arsenal discussion at this moment in time, which we'll delve into as we go on. But let's start with last night and a third round EFL Cup tie against lower league opposition. A much changed team. Arsenal win 2-0. It wasn't the most exciting game, but it was probably just what Arsenal needed in a way, albeit a game which perhaps didn't live up to some of the expectations that people have. When you do play a lower league team, it's like, okay, let's turn up, have some fun, score a rake of goals.

2:42Kaya Kaynak: We can all go home very happy, but it doesn't always work like that. And ultimately you've got to make sure you get through. Yeah, these games are kind of always lose-lose for a big team like Arsenal in the sense that if you win, you're kind of criticised for not winning enough. And then obviously if you go out, then that's the worst thing that could happen, as we saw to Man United in the previous rounds very funnily. So kind of all you can do is get the job done, try and get it done as well as possible. I don't think Arsenal did necessarily do that last night, but they got the job done, which is the most important thing.

3:13And I think Mikel Arteta was talking in his pre-match conference about sort of not being the team that gets knocked out, not being the shock, not giving the home team any momentum. And I think for the most part, Arsenal did that very well, even if it wasn't the most easy on the eye, which I think is a good thing overall. I mean, look, it wasn't that Arsenal played poorly per se.

3:37Kaya Kaynak: I don't think that's the case. I think there was just sort of a lack of action in this game where having gone ahead quite early through Ebrecheza and his first Arsenal goal, we'll talk about that in a second. it sort of gives you the platform in a tie like this to sort of okay there's the uh the early pressure off we can go and play a bit now but it didn't really happen you know sort of half an hour of nothing and then there was a chance for as a setup by michael marino it sort of plays into a wider worry that people have about arsenal and their ability to create chances and be an attacking force, etc, etc.

4:16Kaya Kaynak: How fair is that on a night like last night when there were nine changes to the team that played against Manchester City? There was a little bit of excitement pre-game. I saw people going, oh, Martinelli's going to play up front. And I looked at it and went, no, he's not. Because he's going to play Eze in the central role. Martinelli out left and Mikel Marino up front and Mikel Moreno created that second chance for Eze, but played far deeper than I think he should have played, given that he was ostensibly the centre forward. He dropped a bit too deep. All this talk about him not being a DM and then he's popping up in DM role positions.

4:58Kaya Kaynak: You're like, get back up the pitch. But how much does it matter or how much can we read into a game in which there was a debut for Christian Norgard, A first start of the season for Lewis Gelley, for Warneri. Saka, you're getting minutes into his legs. Ben White, you're getting minutes into his legs. You know, a little bit of a change at the back. You know, the idea of fluency and attacking fluency, I think, is a really big talking point, a big discussion, which I do want to get into you. But are there mitigating circumstances last night and perhaps, you know, for the early part of this season as well?

5:39Yeah, a bit. I think Mikel said after the game that there were five players in the starting lineup who couldn't finish the game. I assume those are the five who came off. So that's a sign that maybe this wasn't an Arsenal team that was up to speed. And as you mentioned, Norgaard first start after an injury, Ben White getting minutes into the legs. Players who have had a preseason, but for whatever reason, have seen their minutes disrupted or have not played much in recent weeks. Miles de Biscayne is probably quite a good example of that way. He's not played as much as maybe we would have wanted him to come into the season.

6:08But I think the fluency thing is an interesting point, but I don't know how much it applies to last night because there was a period where Arsenal went up after the goal and on the Sky coverage, I think they said it was about 20 minutes in, I think Arsenal completed 221 passes to Port Vale's 22 or whatever it was. So 11 times as many passes in the first 20 minutes. And I think once they smothered them that much, and it wasn't the most entertaining to watch, but kind of sucked the life out of Port Vale. but I kind of think the Arsenal maybe thought, oh, wow, these guys are really just going to let us do whatever we want.

6:42So we don't really need to try too much to win this game. And I think they maybe were guilty of falling into a trap of just assuming they would go on and win, which I think is kind of fair in a game like that. I think some players maybe were just playing the safe option, not necessarily trying to do too much of a killer pass or trying to do anything too crazy. And I don't say that as necessarily a criticism. I just think it made for not the most entertaining of spectacles.

7:07Kaya Kaynak: What do you think maybe the message was going into this game for Mikel Arteta? It was like, obviously, listen, we don't want to be the team that's knocked out in a shock like Manchester United going out to Grimsby, which, you know, is, of course, very, very funny for all of us. But, you know, again, that possession stat you mentioned, I think, is part of the discussion or the wider discussion that fans are having at this moment in time. that if Port Vale have had 22 passes and you've had 222 passes, and yet you've probably both had the same number of shots on goal outside of the goal that we did score, which, you know, seems a bit churlish maybe to say, well, apart from the really good goal that we did score, but, you know, there is maybe a desire to see Arsenal turn that domination of possession into more chances, into more creativity, make the goalkeeper work a bit harder or make the defenders work a bit harder.

8:05Kaya Kaynak: You know, you can, was it Arsene Wenger one time who called it sterile domination, I think, you know, with like masses and masses of possession, but without cutting edge. And I, you know, as I said, I do sort of understand it a little bit more last night because of the team that he picked and some of the players and to throw a group of players who've never played together with any frequency before and expect them to just turn up and steamroller opposition, whether they're lower league or not, you know, isn't completely realistic. Nevertheless, I do feel like, and I say this in the cold light of day, being a bit more sanguine about what I saw last night, but during the game, I couldn't help but feel that, in general, Arsenal were risk-averse.

8:54Kaya Kaynak: So do you think there was something to the pre-game messaging in this? It was like, okay, well, don't do anything silly. Let's not get caught in transition. If we have to play it safe and if we have to, you know, keep the ball with a one goal lead, let's do that. We don't need to go hell for leather. We don't need to run ourselves into the ground. We've got a big, difficult, challenging game on Sunday. I know you can't say to players, go out there and play in second gear, but players know and they understand the context in which they're playing a game. And I think if you can relatively easily control possession, therefore nullifying the opposition in that sense, it becomes maybe the easy option.

9:39Kaya Kaynak: and some might say with what we've got coming on Sunday, a relatively sensible option, which doesn't make it easier for you or I or anyone else to look at. But from, I watched, I don't, did you watch the post-game interviews? I did, yeah. And the players were like, yep, yeah, we got the job done. This is a tricky game. You know, these early round cup ties, they're really difficult because you're, you know, the opposition have nothing to lose. we're happy with how we played and happy with how we performed in this game. And it's slightly at odds with maybe what everyone else is thinking sitting at home watching on TV.

10:15Yeah, yeah. And Mikel Arteta's post-game interview was interesting as well in the sense that the thing he said was, you don't want to do anything to give them momentum. So that means you don't want to take too many risks. You don't want to play a pass that might lead you to losing the ball. You don't want to risk yourself being caught in transition because you might give Port Vale something. and I think it was their record crowd for something like 30 years or something like that. And you didn't want to give them any chance to get up and get sort of excited. And we saw a bit towards the end when Mosquera and Kepa seemingly got a bit bored and started playing balls to the Portbell players.

10:48And I think once that happened, Portbell did get a little bit of momentum and it was a little bit scary before Trossard eventually finished off the game. Maybe we'll get to that in more detail later. But I think what Arsenal did well or not, I mean, well might be an adjective that you might disagree with, and I'd be totally fair with you disagreeing with it. But what they did effectively was just stop any chance of like, like if there was a flame of any sort of flame of Port Vale resurgence, Nicole Arteta and Arsenal just immediately smothered it. And it wasn't entertaining. And I think there's fair criticisms as to, because if Port Vale had by some fluke of nature, as can happen, got a goal, then I think people rightly would have been able to say, well, Arsenal probably should have tried a bit more.

11:32And to be honest, they didn't have to try too hard to get passport fail. I thought the two moments of genuine quality in the game were produced by Arsenal in the sense that the Mars Lewis-Galley flick to Eze, if you think it was a flick, and the Trossard touch to bring down Saliba's pass. I thought those were the two moments of real quality in the game. And they're what won Arsenal in the game, and they didn't really have to do too much. And I think when you've got that in your locker, it's difficult to not listen to the managerial instructions and to not think, wow, OK, maybe we need to play risk averse and play sort of calm and safe and not give this home crowd too much.

12:07I wonder if it had been at the Emirates, would they have maybe gone for it a little bit more? Probably. Would they have maybe tried to attack a bit more, played a bit more risky balls? Like you said, probably. But I think the atmosphere on the night, the fact that it was such a big thing for Port Vale, rightly or wrongly, and I think there is definite grounds for criticism. I'm not saying there isn't, but I think that's what played into what was probably not the most exciting affair.

12:27Kaya Kaynak: No, no, no. It was a very functional performance from Arsenal. They did what they had to do. They got the job done. And I think, you know, the fact that this game took place right after the Man City game and the way that Arsenal were perceived to have played in that game or approach that game, I think fed into how people might feel about last night, you know. And we'll circle back around to that because I do think it is an interesting discussion a few days out from that Man City game when the dust has settled a little bit. Let's talk about those moments of quality then. A big moment for Eberreche, obviously scoring his first Arsenal goal.

13:05Kaya Kaynak: It was a ball in from Martinelli. Myles Lewis-Gelly with a flick. I mean, it's hard to see much contact. But if, let's say, if Harry Kane can get credited with a goal that he doesn't touch, I think Myles Lewis-Skelly can take the assist on that one and a nice finish from Eze. I like that logic. I like that logic a lot. And listen, Eze, when he scored, immediately went to Lewis-Skelly. So he clearly thought it was a flick. And Myles Lewis-Skelly, even if it wasn't a flick, certainly styled it out very well like it was. So he was very good at pretending. And I think what was interesting for me, actually, about Lewis Skelly in those opening minutes was he was kind of playing the left back position almost exactly like Ricardo Calafiore plays it.

13:42Like he was everywhere on the pitch. Now, I think there was a moment where Lacrosse came into the box and he was in the number nine position. Obviously, the underlapping getting high into the box, but sometimes he was on the right side of midfield. Sometimes he was obviously in his traditional left back position, but he was he was playing it very a la Calafiore, which I thought was interesting and maybe sort of a little bit of a message to Mikel saying, look, I can do this too if you need me to do it kind of thing. Because he is different from Califiora and he's a bit more, I know he inverts and comes into midfield, but he's not as free form and sort of, I want to say jazz-like Califiora, he kind of does his own thing a lot of the time.

14:16But yeah, it was a nice flick. I'm going to call it a flick. I like the idea of, and also I think Miles O'Skelly has the quality to pull that off. We've seen that from him a few times. So yeah, let's give it to him. He's not had many starts this season. He's not had many minutes. So I think he deserves a bit of positivity.

14:31Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, that was an interesting little bit of pre-game discussion about Lewis Skelly not starting a game so far this season. And Arteta said, look, sometimes you're at the right level, but somebody else is just ahead of you at that moment in time. And obviously, he's picked Ricardo Calafuri for most of the games so far this season. Calafuri's in good form. I think he won Player of the Month for August. Am I right? Yes, I think so. You know, that sort of jazzy way he plays, if you like it. It's sort of, you can envisage him on his Vespa with, you know, a Campari and Soda in one hand and whatever.

15:08Kaya Kaynak: But, you know, that's kind of the way he plays. But, you know, it is an important moment for Lewis Skelly, you know, and for Ethan Weneri, by the way. You know, both of whom signed new contracts in the summer where, you know, they're in the first team squad now. They're not breakthrough members. They're not sort of will I, won't I. The challenge is there for them to perform when they do get their chances. Yeah, yeah. And I think with, yeah, people forget that Arsenal last night, there's also talk about how they played a strong team and they didn't play many youth players and stuff. But they still had two 18-year-olds and obviously a 15-year-old came on later.

15:45And these guys are super young. And the one thing about young players is they're prone to moments of inconsistency. And I think when they go through bad patches, what Arsenal haven't had in the past is the ability to rotate them out of the team. And I think we saw that a bit with Martinelli. He's obviously a bit older, but a bit with him last season when he was going through a difficult spell. I think if Arsenal had had the squad depth that they do now, Martinelli probably would have been in a much better place than he is. And I remember a few years ago when Hector Bellerin was coming through, he had an amazing breakout season and scored actually quite a similar goal that Miles scored against City, against Liverpool, the opposite halves of the pitch, but they were kind of similar cutting in and shooting on the left.

16:21And I thought that the next season, he struggled a bit to back it up because there wasn't any real direct competition to him. And Myles doesn't have that because he's got Califiori and he's got Hincapié and he's got the hundreds of other left-backs that Arsenal have in their squad to compete with. So I think that's something that's good for him. And I think when Mikel's putting out those messages saying essentially Myles is doing everything right, he's just not as good as Califiori at this moment in time, I think Myles can take comfort in that and he can probably take a little bit of comfort in and listen, I'm not saying we want this but Califuri's injury record and he probably will get his chance at some point this season it's a long season and I think, yeah, Myles is proving with these kind of performances I didn't think he was perfect last night I thought there were a couple of moments when playing out from the back when he was a little bit sort of loose but I thought he put in a performance that suggested let's say Califuri goes down with an injury before Sunday, knock on wood you know, Myles is ready to come in And that's good.

17:19And yeah, that's the level of competition he's dealing with. And to be in this Arsenal squad right now, you need to be really, really good. And Myles is definitely that.

17:27Kaya Kaynak: No, for sure. I thought Wuneri, by the way, was quite bright in the first half. Probably our best, most impactful outfield player, which I know is a low bar, but I did like the way he played in that first half. Second half, there really wasn't much in the way of action. Again, a moment of fear when Bakayo Saka, probably about 5-10 minutes into the second half, got stood on. Went in for a sort of 50-50 kind of that made me wince just as he was going into it. And got caught with studs on the top of the foot. It was one of those where I was really like, oh no. I know. What was with the referee last night, by the way?

18:05He didn't give a single foul for anything. It was quite incredible, both ways. But it was really funny watching it. Just like so many fouls just not being given. And it was it was quite I quite enjoyed it, but it was it was such a change from what we're used to.

18:17Kaya Kaynak: I thought, well, yes, that's true. That's true. Like it wasn't the sort of game where it got out of control because of that, which I think is interesting. He did let it flow quite a bit. And there was some physicality in the game, which maybe you get a bit more in the lower leagues. And referees at that level are probably a bit more inclined to let that stuff go. There was no VAR, of course, as well. So there's no sort of re-referring any bits that were missed. Anyway, he took off Saka about an hour in, which was always the plan. That's what he said. Brought on Max Dowman. Max had a couple of nice moments, didn't he?

18:52Kaya Kaynak: There's that, I think, youthful desire to really impress at times where perhaps he takes on opposition players in moments when he could release the ball. but that desire to make something happen was a bit of a refreshing antidote to some of the other stuff that we saw from Arsenal that like, okay, we'll give it a go and if it doesn't work, you know, what's the worst that can happen if you lose the ball up by their corner flag? And he did have one very, very nice pass, didn't he, into Victor Jokeres. When Jokeres came on, it was a half a chance maybe. He could have got the shot off a little bit quickly.

19:32Kaya Kaynak: The ball didn't quite come down, took a touch and it was blocked out but the pass from Downman was excellent. Yeah, yeah. And I think, like you say, Downman was sort of the antidote to the risk-averse approach that Arsenal adopted for most of the game. And I sent you a text just before he came on saying, thank God he's coming on so we can have something to talk about on this podcast because it was looking bleak for quite a while. But Max, I think he's a fun player and I think that's why he's attracting so much excitement and he's definitely eye-catching as well. Everything he does, every time he gets the ball.

20:03I remember there was one time he received the ball, I can't remember the exact circumstances around it, but could very easily have passed back and chose to turn forward. And I think the commentators were saying he was almost annoyed every time he wasn't being given the ball. And this is a 15-year-old shouting at Gabriel, who's been the Arsenal captain, and Norgard, who's 31 years old and has years of Premier League experience. It's good that he has that attitude, and I kind of like it. And I think it's a matter of time before people come out and start saying, oh, if he plays like that, he's too selfish.

20:33he's going to get himself in trouble. He can't keep doing all these things and all that stuff. But I think while he's got this freedom and this joy in the way he plays, I think we should all really enjoy it because it's fun. And it's, you know, the obvious maybe lazy comparison is the way Laminya Maul plays the game. He plays the game in a very similar way, which is just like, screw it, I'm just going to try it and see what happens. And I think you have that bravery when you're young and you're not really bothered about whether it goes wrong because you haven't been burnt so many times by previous mistakes.

21:02Kaya Kaynak: But also when you have the ability to do those things, you know, it's like you or me there. Well, we'll try something, but that's not going to work. But if you're Max Damon or if you're Lamine Jamal, then you have this technical ability, this skill, this sort of inherent ability to beat men with your body, with your feet, with shift of, you know, shift of your hips, whatever it is. That sort of inbuilt talent is what drives you to try those things in the first place. yeah I can say with certainty that age isn't the only thing stopping me from becoming an Arsenal footballer and sadly that dream is that dream is gone for me but also what's impressive for Max for you know talking about his age is I think there was a couple of moments where early when he came on where Portvale players tried to body him off the ball a bit or use their physicality against him and he stood up to that so well which is a 15 year old is is really really difficult and same with Miles and Ethan like I think we take for granted how difficult it is to make the physical step up to men's football when you're 16, 17, 18.

22:02It's hard and these guys do it really well. And that's a credit to, I think, the physical training that they go through in the academy and they do it really well. And yeah, we all, listen, we all know how exciting Max is. And it's interesting now with Maduweko being out till around Christmas, this feels like a big opportunity for Max and it feels like a chance where he's probably going to be in most matchday squads going forward. And the fact Mikel was willing to throw him on at Anfield, rightly or wrongly, I thought was a sign that he's willing to use him in the biggest of games. and again, knock on wood, we don't want this to happen to Saka, but if an injury happens, it's either him or Ethan competing for that right wing spot.

22:35I don't know, Martinelli can play there too and Trossard and there's options, but I'd say those two are first up and there's a lot of things that go into making your break into the first team, but luck is also a huge part of it. Like skill has obviously got maxed to where he is now, but to make that next step into being a Premier League player and to make those games in the Premier League, he needs luck because he needs players in front of him to pick up injuries just like Saka did when he broke into the team, just like Smith-Rowe did when he broke into the team, Marcelli, et cetera. So this could be Max Dahmer's chance.

23:07And I think if he keeps kind of playing with that joy and that bravery, then maybe this is an exciting couple of months for him because I think he is going to get minutes, not just in the Carabao Cup. I think maybe we'll see him in some lower Champions League games, maybe in the last half an hour or so of Premier League games when they're going well, like we saw against Leeds. But also, you know, if something, God forbid, does happen to Saka, then yeah he's got a real chance of playing quite regularly for Arsenal and that's a really good sign I think.

23:32Kaya Kaynak: Yeah for sure and if his chance doesn't come now maybe when he's an old man at 16 next year it could come along you know. It's absurd isn't it? Anyway yeah I did like that moment by the way that you referenced the left back who I don't know if I've ever seen a footballer look like they're concentrating as hard as they possibly can in a game. Like this guy, I can't remember his name. Headley, I think it was. Headley. I mean, to be fair, he had a decent game against Pakaio Saka and that is not easy to do, but you could really see him like, oh, I've got to figure out which way he's going to go. But he did try and put the shoulder on Damund and he just sort of bounced off him.

24:16Kaya Kaynak: Or, you know, that says a lot about Damund's ability to withstand that physical contact at his age. I wrote down in my notes about Headley. I said he's lucky that the Port Vale shorts aren't white as well when he was up against Saka because early on he was struggling up against Bucaio, as many Premier League defenders do. But yeah, I felt sorry for the guy. But yeah, he came through it all right. He acquitted himself pretty well, I have to say. The second goal, which came after that moment you mentioned with Kepa, where he made a bad pass and they had a shot which was not too far over, and the Mosquera pass across goal, which gave them a sight, which they didn't really make the most of.

24:56Kaya Kaynak: long ball from Saliba, Trossard off the bench, nice touch, control, finish, a very Trossard goal, and just probably the right time to ensure that the last few minutes didn't get in any way hairy, you know, 1-0. I do think Arsenal were more or less in complete control of this, but you just never know what might happen, and with 90 minutes plus penalties, no extra time, you don't have any time to put things right and not the penalty shootouts are a lottery but things can go wrong in a penalty shootout so a good time to score that goal and just kill the game definitely with Kepa's record with penalty shootouts in the Carabao Cup you probably don't want to risk going that far David Raya David Raya on the better exactly I'm coming on exactly but I think yeah um there were a few moments where I think Port Vale started chucking balls into the box long throws set pieces etc and they were winning a few first contacts and Arsenal were sweeping them up relatively well after that but those can those can lead to a goal so easily the second especially when it's late on and players are tired and maybe they're not focusing as much as they should have been and all that kind of stuff so yeah it was an important timing of goal for Arsenal they'd obviously had the chance with Victor Jokeres before and it was interesting once Jokeres came on and started to stretch Port Vale in behind when away Mourinho hadn't done they looked a lot more scared as a back line and I think having a proper striker and proper players who could trouble them in behind, caused them lots of issues.

26:20And that run from Trossard was another example of it. I wonder if, you know, if VAR had been around, it looks quite tight and maybe it would have been difficult, but I'm kind of glad it wasn't because it worked out pretty well for Arsenal. And yeah, Trossard again off the bench. Listen, Trossard's ability to come off the bench and score big goals is underrated and a really useful asset throughout the rest of the season for Arsenal. I think people forget that there are going to be games. And a lot of people were quite dismissive about Trossard going into the season saying, you know, sell, cash in.

26:51I thought that was incorrect because he offers Arsenal so much and disabilities come off the bench is not something that anyone can do. And he does it really, really well.

27:01Kaya Kaynak: Well, yeah, we actually had a question, some questions from our Discord for today. And NoBots says, the Trossard circle of life gets subbed on, scores, earns himself a start, plays poorly, dropped to the bench, gets subbed on, scores, repeat. Do you think some players are just more suited to a super sub style against tired legs? And look, I would have preferred somebody else on the left in the first half of the Man City game than Trossard. I think in the second half, he was quite good, generally speaking. But I get why he is that kind of player for people where they look at him maybe now, perhaps in part because of his age.

27:43Kaya Kaynak: I'm not sure, but his ability and a consistent ability that we've seen over the last 12 to 18 months to get into the flow of a game quickly and contribute something, whether it is an assist, whether it is a goal. We've seen it already this season in Bilbao, obviously. He came off the bench last night to score. You know, I do think he's a really valuable asset for Arsenal. but even if you do think that is the best way to use Leandro Trossard there comes a point where Leandro Trossard is going to disagree that that is the best way to use Leandro Trossard so it's tricky isn't it for managers to find that balance that even if Arteta is thinking you know what like fucking 30 minutes of Trossard against any team is fantastic and gives me a sort of safety net on the bench where I know when I'm putting somebody on that I've seen them score a goal.

28:40Kaya Kaynak: I've seen them make an assist. I've seen them have a positive contribution. But when you're a senior player like that, you would find it very difficult to accept that as your role or your only role. So Arteta has to find that balance. Yeah, I'm trying to think of comparable players in sort of Arsenal history that I can remember. The one that springs to mind is Olivier Giroud towards the end of his career when he had a period, I think in Lengu's last season and maybe before, where Lacazette had come in and he was sort of starting every now and again, but more often coming off the bench and doing a job.

29:16And I don't think he was too happy with that and left relatively quickly after. Trossard has obviously signed a new deal at Arsenal. And I think that's a sign of how much the club value him. And Mikel Arteta definitely values him because he wouldn't have started him against Man City if he didn't. But I think what Arsenal are doing well with Trossard is managing him and giving him minutes where it matters. And yeah, it's tricky. I mean, I think when I was doing my old job for Football London, Trossard would sometimes be put up for pre-match press conference in a Champions League game and every single question to him would be, do you like being a super sub?

29:53And he would say some sort of polite version of no, I bloody don't. And I think he's someone who Arteta is described as a natural moaner. And I don't think he's necessarily the kind of guy who's going to be happy and sort of, you know, sprightly on the bench. But he shouldn't be so damn good at it if he doesn't want to be coming off the bench so much. Yeah, it's his own fault. Yeah, it's his own fault. And listen, everyone has a role to play. And I think Arteta's interesting, one of his interesting sort of terminological, call if that's a that's a word quirks this season has been he's obviously started calling substitutes finishes instead of starters although I think he's done that in the past and that's clearly a big thing and with this massive squad he can develop 90 minute game plans not just starting 11s and then subs that he hopes will make a difference like it was last season when Sterling was coming off the bench and kind of like a Hail Mary kind of thing I think you can think right I don't know against Newcastle on Sunday they're back five might be quite tired towards the end of the match let's throw Trussard at them for, like you said, 30 minutes and see what he can do.

31:01And I think that's the positive, again, of this massive depth that Arsenal have. And yeah, he's got an important role to play for Arsenal this season, I would say.

31:09Kaya Kaynak: No, I agree. I did find some of the discourse around that sort of terminology quite interesting. You know, people go, well, they're just substitutes, like they always were, you know. Why can't you just call them substitutes? but I think there is something about the language managers use, which is worthy of some analysis. Sometimes not, but in this case, I think when you have a squad the size of Arsenal's, if you call them fringe players, if you call them substitutes, you sort of undermine their role within this big squad, right? And it is one of the challenges he is going to have is keeping everybody happy.

31:51Kaya Kaynak: so to sort of i don't know if it's an affirmation but you know to to refer to trossard and martinelli after bilbao as finishers you know sounds way better than saying well the replacements you know did did a good job when they came on you know it's inclusive and i think you have to look at the psychology of it and how managers speak um in that sense so yeah i think trossard's role will be, not primarily, but there'll be a big part of him this season as a finisher. But I do think there are games that he's going to start. Before we move on to some other stuff, the reward, if you want to call it that, for the next round is a home tie with Brighton.

32:34Kaya Kaynak: I mean, I think that's the kind of game that demands you take it seriously, that you put out a strong team and a strong squad, regardless of the fact it's a competition that, for some people doesn't mean anything for others. They'll be very happy with Arsenal to win a trophy. I think you can't, after so many years without a trophy, overlook the opportunities that come your way. There's only four to play for this season. So it's going to be a home game against decent opposition that we're going to have to take very seriously. Yeah, I don't think there'll be nine changes against Brighton in the next round.

33:10I think, and it's frustrating because you look at when the draw was coming out and Arsenal obviously up first and the teams they could have got I know Grimsby beat Man United I would have taken Grimsby and a lower league team just to try and give those players the finishers a chance to be starters and I think that's been that's going to be a problem in the sense that they're not going to get that chance most likely against Brighton and Brighton have been really good in the Carabao Cup this year I think they've scored 12 goals in two games or something crazy like that back-to-back six nil wins so yeah they're a good side and I think a couple of years ago Arsenal got Brighton I think at this exact stage of the Carabao Cup or maybe it was the round before and Mikel Arteta played Carl Hayne in goal he made lots of changes and I think Arsenal lost either two or three nil on the night it didn't go very well so I think Mikel will learn from that and play a squad sorry a side that is stronger and yeah it's it's frustrating in the sense that you would like to see those I know Mikel doesn't call them fringe players but we can call them fringe players get a run out and they'll probably not get as much of a run out.

34:11And yeah, that's, that's okay. But it would have been nice to get an easier draw.

34:15Kaya Kaynak: I'm with you. I just looked up that game. We lost three, one, three, one, the, the, the team, Carl Hain and goal, Tierney Saliba, holding Cedric, Fabio Vieira, Albert Sambi Lokonga, Mohamed Elneny, Eddie Nketiah, Rhys Nelson and Marquinhos. We've come a long way, Kaya, you know, whatever people's, whatever people's gripes and grumps are at the moment, we have come a long way in that sense. I wanted to ask you about Victor Jocherez and what you've made of his start to life at Arsenal, which I think has to be put into the context of, you know, like any new signing, coming to a new league. I know he has previous in England, but not at Premier League level.

35:00Kaya Kaynak: A new team, new teammates, new club, of the physical demands of the Premier League and the fact that he has been, if not thrust in at the deep end, probably been asked to do more at this point than Arsenal and Mikel Arteta and maybe himself would have planned because I think the Kai Havertz injury was significant in that I think when you look at the fixture list, I would posit that Havertz would have started at Old Trafford, probably. He probably would have started the Liverpool game. I think he would have started the Man City game. And it would have eased the burden a little bit on Jokeres. And, you know, the analysis after what, how many games is it so far this season?

35:53Kaya Kaynak: Six games, I think, is what Arsenal have played. he's done all right you know he's got three goals um i'm not saying he's dennis bergkamp or thierry henry at all but we saw those players take a little bit of time to to adapt to arsenal when they came in at first it took them a while to get off the mark etc etc so how are you viewing the the the discussions around him and the discourse around victor jacquez and how arsenal can get more out of him and what he's brought to the team and the things that maybe he's finding a little bit difficult to get on top of in this very early stage of his time at a new club yeah I it does seem to be an Arsenal thing but he he's his the level of hate watch he is getting from from other people feels on the extreme end like Benjamin Seska cost Man United more money he's not under as much pressure.

36:51Nick Voltamada cost Newcastle more money. He's not under as much pressure. João Pedro has come in and started okay at Chelsea, but he's not under as much pressure. And I think, I see your point about if Jokeres had had the chance to ease in and have it to start those first few games, maybe it would have been easier for Jokeres. But I don't know that it would, because I think the narrative would have been, oh, Mikel Arteta has spent 60 million pounds on a striker and he's still not using him. And why isn't he using him? Is it because he's not good enough? And then the pressure would have been on him to come in and deliver instantly and sort of take over from Haberts.

37:22And I think the way it's panned out has actually maybe worked in his favour a little bit in the sense that there's not an alternative, so people can't really get on his back in that sense. They can't really say he needs to be dropped. I think it allows him minutes on the pitch. And yeah, listen, I want Haberts back as soon as possible, but not because I think Jokeres has been a disaster by any stretch of the imagination. I think it's interesting. Obviously, the negative thing around Jokeres is it feels pretty big from outside, But he's the second highest score in the Premier League behind Erling Haaland.

37:50That's a pretty good start. Three goals in six appearances is not bad. It's one and two. If he ends the season with one and two, I think we'll all be pretty happy. And a lot of people talk about Jokeres and the narrative I hear from pundits on TV is, oh, he's been brought in to win Arsenal these big games. No, he hasn't.

38:08Kaya Kaynak: No, no, no. He hasn't. I completely agree. He's been brought in to win Arsenal the games where the Brentfords, the Bournemouths last season, where they went 1-0 up, not 2 or 3, and they ended up drawing or losing those games. That's what Jokic is, in my opinion at least, and it sounds like Jokic is for. He's for those kind of games. And listen, if he scores in big games and gets goals against City, Liverpool, United, fantastic. But for me, what he has been brought in to do is give Arsenal even more dominance or be able to turn their ball dominance into goals. And he's kind of done that in the games where he's played, sorry, in the games where he's scored.

38:42And the Leeds goal, the first one obviously, is not the kind of goal that Arsenal would have scored last season. Same can be said of the Forest goal. I think that's a positive sign. He's not been perfect, but he's been asked to play different games. So against Man U, he was asked to drop in and play with his back to goal a bit more. Leeds is more running and behind. Forest would stay within the wits of the post and City was a bit different. I thought Bilbao, he was actually really good in terms of his complete play. I thought he looked really positive. But there are issues and I think his link-up play needs to be a bit sharper.

39:10There are times where he overhits passes or his touch is bouncy. and I think people see that and they see this clunky version of a number nine when we've been sort of used at Arsenal to strikers like Thierry Henry is obviously the reference point for a striker that comes into our mind who is probably the most silky centre forward to have ever existed if not in the Premier League, then in the world and Jokeres is not going to be that. He's going to be a bit more of a battering ram. Sometimes you need a chisel to break down opposition defences. Sometimes you need a sledgehammer and he's more in the latter category and I'm fine with that.

39:43I can live with him having an occasional bounce pass or a poor touch if he is finishing his chances. And thus far, the chances he's got, because he's not had many, and that's the thing that's been left out of the analysis of the City, Liverpool and United Games. He didn't really have a chance in any of those games. When he's had chances, generally, he's taken them. So I'm not quite on the negative hype about Jokeres yet, because I think he needs a little bit more time before we can form a judgment. But I think actually there are some positive early signs and thus far he's kind of doing what he was brought in to do.

40:18So yeah, room for improvement for sure, but definitely good so far in my opinion.

40:22Kaya Kaynak: Is it unfair to highlight Jokere's lack of involvement or shots or chances in the so-called big games? Can you separate it from Arsenal's performances in those big games? Because, you know, I think the game plan at Liverpool, right, was to go and basically negate Liverpool, which Arsenal did until Dominic Sabaslay scored an amazing goal. and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, fuck. You know, it wasn't quite the same against Manchester City. The game played out in its way. But again, we talked about Arsenal maybe not finding the incisiveness or the creativity required to turn the domination, which I think Arsenal did, into chances, whether it's for Jokeres or anybody else for that matter.

41:14Kaya Kaynak: So is it a little unfair to sort of highlight that big game lack of threat without acknowledging the fact that there are probably more systematic issues at play which have a big impact on him. Because, listen, you mentioned Thierry Henry. Think about the game against Liverpool that Friday in the Invincible season where it wasn't going for Arsenal. So Thierry Henry said, fuck this. dropped deep, picked the ball up, skinned about five Liverpool players, left Jamie Carragher and Didi Hyman on their arses and scored a goal. Like he is never going to do that. That's not what he is about. And it is part of the bigger question, part of the bigger discussion, which we'll get into now is the sort of creativity element that exists around the way Arsenal are playing.

42:11Kaya Kaynak: So let's deal with that. and then let's circle it back around to these first five games of the season and how big an issue we might think that is. Yeah, I think particularly in the City game. So obviously, Jokeres' goal against Leeds and goal against Forest both came from balls in behind. It's hard to play balls in behind when City turn into 2008 turning Pulis' Stoke. That makes it very difficult. And against Liverpool, Arsenal were a bit like they were against Port Vale, as we've discussed, a bit more risk-averse. United, there were chances in transition. And James wrote a really good piece on The Athletic about it and you guys discussed it on here and Arsenal weren't clever enough or didn't play the final ball well enough and I don't know how much that's Jokeres' fault and people will point to, you know, they'll focus on that early thing where he kind of fell over on the ball or where he gets bounced off or his touch goes miles out of play or something but it's hard to judge him.

43:02I think it's also hard to judge him massively without the creative presence of Martin Odegaard behind him, playing those balls in behind, unlocking the defences and all those kind of things that Odegaard is really good at and Mikel Moreno, for all his strengths, is not Martin Odegaard. He's not going to break down opposition defences. And I think that's probably a bit of an issue. I think we praise Maduweke, but against City, and I think Maduweke has been great so far, but against City, there were a lot of times where he got to the byline, played it blind and didn't look where Jokeres was. Once that connection starts forming, or maybe once Bukayo Saka's in there and playing those balls to him, maybe he'll start scoring more.

43:35I don't know. I feel like people will accuse me of making excuses for him and I can see why. But I think it's really hard to judge him without Arsenal's two best creators behind him in Saka and Odegaard. I think it's hard to judge him in games where he's essentially in Portugal, all the goals we saw in those compilations that I'm sure we've all watched are him running in behind. And he didn't really do that much against City, Liverpool or United. So, yeah, let's keep judging him. I think once he's got all the creative players behind him, let's keep judging him in games where there are more suited to his strengths.

44:06And if he's still not performing, he has performed. if he's not performing then, then I think there's fair criticism to be had. But for now, I think it's a bit too premature for sure.

44:15Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, I thought there was an interesting, I watched an interesting video by Adam Cleary, who did the analysis of the Manchester City game. And he talked about Matuweke, about how individually he's probably been Arsenal's brightest player this season, but he hasn't quite got on the wavelength of those around him yet. So it's sort of an interesting observation, just as you mentioned, Matuweke. But let's talk about this idea or reality, however you want to put it, about Arsenal lacking creativity, firepower, decisiveness in the final third. You know, clearly what happened against Man City on Sunday has had a big impact on that, right?

44:59Kaya Kaynak: We had a lot of domination, a lot of possession, but we didn't really create too many chances against Manchester City. As you said, it's very difficult. You know, I think it's quite funny that people are talking more about how Arsenal failed to break Man City down than Man City playing 4-5 or 5-5-0, basically, at some point. And, you know, the two sides of that are, well, he's either afraid of what Arsenal can do if they come out and play, or he's confident that his team can snuff Arsenal out by being defensive. It's just not really the Pep Guardiola way. you know again it's really early in the season we've missed Odegaard for a bit we haven't had Bakao Saka who is our best player we haven't had Kai Havertz and I'm not saying these things to to make excuses I'm just putting this out there as a sort of talking point a discussion that we can have and people listening can agree or disagree or whatever I'm just curious as to how you think about this because for all the talk about it and I get it like I would have liked to have seen a And Eze, for example, starting instead of Mikel Moreno on Sunday.

46:07Kaya Kaynak: That would have been my preference. Or Ethan Guoneri. That would be my preference to see that. But Mikel Arteta might say, well, look at the Premier League table. Who scored the most goals? Liverpool, 11. Who's next? Arsenal on 10. Who has the best goal difference? Well, it's Arsenal because we've only conceded two goals. people will counter that by saying well look Liverpool have got the points and Arsenal don't have the points and that's a completely fair rebuttal to what I've just said but you know as you try and find the balance between the reality of the goals for column the goals against column and what you want Arsenal to do on the pitch in games as well as taking into account, I think, a really difficult fixture list with Man United, Liverpool, Man City in the first few games with Newcastle and Tottenham still to come in close order.

47:11Kaya Kaynak: How do you find that discussion? Where do you lie on this? Should Arsenal be better? Can we expect Arsenal to be better? Should we expect Arsenal to be better based on how much they've spent in the transfer window? So, or does it take time when you bring in eight players in one window to find that fluency and find a way to make things click? Yeah, I'll say. That's a lot there. I'm sorry. That was a long-ass question. The thing is about this, people expect it to be a really simple answer, a really simple discussion, but it's a really complex thing. Even to lay out the argument is quite hard. So, I think it's fair.

47:46I will start by saying that on the TIFO football podcast, which I'm also on, we focused on City being defensive rather than Arsenal maybe not being as offensive as people would have liked. And I'll say that I actually thought that Mikel Moreno's selection against Man City was the right choice because what Arsenal expected and what everyone expected was Man City's come out and press high against Arsenal, like they have done in every single game this season. And the reason they lost to Brighton is because they pressed so high, they left themselves massively open at the back. And the reason they've lost other games is similar.

48:24So City, because Pep Linders has come in, obviously worked with Jurgen Klopp, a high-pressing team now, and they press super high and they leave spaces. And the best way to beat that is by kind of clipping it over the top. And unless he's against Gabriel Magalhaes, Mikael Marino, I think, is one of the best aerial duel winners in our team. So I think that made sense. and it was a game that was likely to be win those aerial duels, hit them on the break, see what you can do. So I thought Mikel Moreno was the right choice. I also thought Mikel Arteta made an interesting point in his pre-match one ahead of Port Vale where he said, he knows and we don't know about Eze's load.

49:02Maybe he wasn't fully ready because Eze didn't play as many games in pre-season or had a few games where he had to wait between playing for Arsenal and whatever. And also that Eze had never really played right eight or the right attacking midfielder position in in years he'd always been on the left at Palace and to throw him in on the right eight in such a big game is is big and I think people see that pass remember at the last minute and think wow this is the greatest spark Arsenal have needed but I actually didn't think he was brilliant and I thought he was good don't get me wrong but I didn't think he was brilliant when it came to doing much for Arsenal to break City down when they were in their low block I actually thought as it was was at his best when the game became briefly, and it was very brief, a bit more sporadic.

49:41And the player Arsenal needed probably in that position and sort of the man who can break down low blocks and do it relatively well is Martin Odegaard and they didn't have him at their disposal. And I think, as you say, the facts are that Arsenal scored the second highest number of goals this season. They've scored quite a lot. They've done pretty well in the Champions League. I personally am not too bothered about the idea that they're not creating as much offensively. I think there is an argument that maybe Mikel Arteta's approach and risk-averse approach has hampered them. I thought it did in the Liverpool game.

50:11I know people might disagree with me, but I thought Arsenal could have maybe gone for a slightly more expansive approach, although Liverpool were very good that day. And obviously, Sabozla scored a ridiculous free kick that for a long time was the only goal Arsenal had conceded. I think you kind of have to take these on a game-by-game basis. And I think to draw like big sweeping conclusions that Arsenal are too cautious or Arsenal aren't attacking enough. Well, they were pretty attacking against Leeds. they beat them 5-0. They were pretty attacking against Nottingham Forest. I don't remember Nottingham Forest getting out of their half.

50:41And they were pretty attacking against Man City. City just defended really, really well. And I think that's a part that was not spoken about. And they changed their tactics to cope with the Arsenal attack in a way that, as you said, Pep has never done in 15, 20-odd years of management. So there's, I think, fair criticisms to be had that is Mikel Arteta a bit too risk-averse in games? And does he not take the handbrake off as Wenger did? or is there that sterile dominance, as you spoke about Wenger saying earlier? And I think those are fair criticisms, but I think a lot of the time the argument gets lost in sweeping generalisations about last season where Arsenal were rubbish going forward, but that's because their entire forward line was injured.

51:21And people carry the legacy of that into this season. And Odegaard and Saka have been injured. Maduweke is now injured. Maverick is injured. Yeah, exactly. So there are games where Arsenal have looked a little bit more stale, but I think for the most part, Arsenal have actually been decent going forward. I do think it's not been as big an issue as people are maybe suggesting and I do wonder sometimes if maybe people see Mikel Marino's name on the team sheet and they equate that instantly with defensive football. Judge it on a case-by-case basis would be my argument to those kind of people. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't and yeah, I think Arsenal haven't been as bad going forward as people say.

52:00Kaya Kaynak: I tend to agree. I do think there is room for improvement, obviously. there's room for improvement. How much do you think success anxiety is playing a part in this? Because I feel like Arsenal, more than any other club in the Premier League, are under a microscope every single week, every single game, every single performance, collectively and individually,

52:33Kaya Kaynak: is analyzed to the nth degree in a way that isn't true of other teams. And I will say I'm not as across other team coverage as you might be or other people might be, but it really does feel like that to me. Like even last night after we win, apparently Jamie Redknapp was saying Mikel Arteta should be booked for going out of his technical area. Did you see the size of the technical area, by the way? It was fucking tiny. Who cares? I know, but this is what I mean. This is it. Arsenal won a cup tie away from home and Jamie Redknapp's going on and on and on about Mikel Arteta going out of his technical area.

53:10Kaya Kaynak: It's pointless. He's got very expensive and big shoes on. They need to go somewhere, you know? But what I mean is, you know, we as Arsenal fans are desperate for Arsenal to win trophies. We've come so close, but I feel like the fact that we have come so close is playing a major part in the way Arsenal are discussed right now. And I feel like maybe the fact that we're having these discussions, we're so sort of in this bubble of desire for success that sometimes it's hard to step back out of it and look and think that the reason this is happening is because Arsenal are good and the potential is there and people can see the potential is there.

53:55Kaya Kaynak: There's a great example of that potential, which I'm going to tell you now in just a second because there's been some breaking news as we're recording, which you might have seen. I'll tell you about that now in a second. Don't spoil the surprise by looking at your phone. But what I mean is, you know, Arsenal have been really, really good. And this is a squad that I think is capable of playing really well and being really, really competitive, whether we get trophies or not at the end. I can't say, I hope we do, obviously, but these years of coming second and feeling like we've been so close to something are now sort of part of the DNA of the Arsenal discussion.

54:42Kaya Kaynak: And it's kind of hard to un-intertwine. That's not a word. We're making up some terrible words. Disentangle. Disentangle. There's a great word. One that actually exists. Thank you, Kaya. You know what I mean? you know what I mean when I'm saying this, that it is hard to separate those two things and I understand it for obvious reasons, I get it, but it feels like every single game and every single performance is like a referendum on everything. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I wonder if part of that is the way we've changed our consumption of football in the sense it's obviously social media kind of algorithms and stuff put to the top the most controversial and out there content And I think people know within media companies, listen, I say this as someone who works for a media company myself and has worked for one my entire career.

55:31People know that Arsenal do big numbers. If you mention Arsenal in a conversation or a viral clip or whatever, a Jamie O 'Hara talking nonsense kind of thing, that it will do numbers. And that's what the social media teams at a lot of companies are encouraged to do. And I think it creates false narratives and false debates and you're almost talking about stuff that doesn't really need to be talked about a lot of the time. But I almost feel I don't want to be telling people how to consume their football in the sense that I think if you genuinely feel that every game is a referendum and every game must win and if you genuinely feel that Arsenal have to win now, then okay, I'm not going to tell you not to feel that.

56:18I personally don't. I think, listen, I'd be delighted and I want Arsenal to win. I don't want Arsenal to become, I don't want Mikel Arteta's Arsenal to become Pochettino Spurs. That would really piss me off. I'd be really upset if that happened because I think this is a much better team than that. And I think there are some fair things going around where if you don't win, you're not remembered. Like I think a lot outside of Arsenal, people probably don't remember the 2007 to 2010 team that was, you know, delighted us all and played really nice football, but didn't win anything. and I think there are interesting things about how people from and a lot of pundits from outside the club talk about Arsenal and I do wonder if maybe if Arsenal had a representative on those kind of media platforms like a Carragher, like a Neville who could kind of defend their corner a bit more maybe, maybe Ian Wright doesn't quite get enough

57:12Kaya Kaynak: you know, he doesn't do that stuff anymore he obviously does the overlap stuff but not the sort of day-to-day punditry yeah and I think Wright is great but he obviously like you say isn't as all encompassing as Gary Neville for better or for worse I'm sure you have your opinions on whether that's better or worse yeah there's interesting conversations to be had about how much of it is real and how much of it is created and I think there's actually you know without getting too deep and meaningful there's conversations across the rest of the world about how much and the whole world and politics and all that kind of stuff about how much anger is kind of being whipped up and how much of it is genuine.

57:52And I think, like, that's why I say, if you genuinely feel that, then listen, you're well within your rights to. And I think people are kind of fair enough to say, yeah, it's probably about time Arsenal won something. And it is about time Arsenal won something. I think we all think that. And Michael Arteta has gone really big. He's spent a lot of money. They've not sold much, which I think is different to, obviously, Liverpool has sold very well, even though they spent a lot of money. So I think that is very different to the Arsenal case. And I think Arteta's got a squad now, which is the best of the league, if not Europe.

58:24So there are definite sort of parameters to judge Arsenal by. But I think there's also mitigating circumstances in the sense that, like you said, eight players takes a lot of time to blend in. Injuries do happen. Things don't go your way. And this is the reason why football is probably the best and most exciting sport in the world in the sense that you can buy all the best players and you can have the best team, but you probably still, well, you might not still win.

58:46Kaya Kaynak: Yeah. So that's just the way it goes sometimes. I, for one, I'm kind of just enjoying the ride. I'm enjoying Arsenal playing nice football. I'm enjoying being challenging at the top of the leagues again because I remember those COVID years and I remember how bad it was and how boring a lot of it was. So it's nice to just like be up and around it. And yeah, I'm kind of taking each game as it comes, enjoying it as much as I can and trying not to view it as life and death because I don't think, certainly in September, I don't think it is. Maybe we can have these conversations with a bit more anxiety in March, April, May.

59:19Sure. But I think now it's probably a little bit too early to be going big on the Leverage Time Arsenal drop a point. It's a disaster. But yeah, that's the way social media and the state of the debate kind of is these days. It sure is. I don't know that we can change it that much.

59:34Kaya Kaynak: No, no, no, no. But I'm sure people listening to this are perfectly entitled to feel how they feel. But, you know, there is a middle ground, let's say, for expressing concern and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. The thing about the potential I was going to say to you, you know, one way of measuring that potential is how keen your best players are to stay with you and commit to new terms and sign new contracts. So is there a KEPA contract extension? A KEPA contract extension. That's what we've all been waiting for. Not only that, though, some guy called William Saliba, according to a little-known journalist named David Ornstein, William Saliba commits future to Arsenal by agreeing a new long-term contract.

1:00:25Kaya Kaynak: 24-year-old centre-back entered final two years of his previous deal, and Real Madrid were among the suitors. But the France international wanted AFC stay and is expected to sign in the coming days. Obviously, brilliant, brilliant news. He's such a great player. His partnership with Gabriel is unbelievable. And to secure his future is fantastic work. And I think, you know, leaving that aside, it does tell you something. We've talked often about how if players don't feel, if players like William Saliba feel like they can't win what they want to win at Arsenal, they're gone. They go. That's how it works.

1:01:10Kaya Kaynak: You know, he could easily just play out his final two years or he could say, you know, I'll wait, I'll wait, I'll wait. Give Arsenal a decision to make on a contract next summer. Do you sell now or do you try and convince him or do you risk losing him on a free? And I think, you know, for all the concerns and all of it, when someone like William Saliba is saying, yes, this is the place to be. This is the club I want to be at. This is the club I'm going to commit my future to. To me, not only is it great news because he's such a brilliant player, it's a great sign of what things are like internally and what the belief is like internally, not just with Saliba, but with all of the players.

1:01:52Kaya Kaynak: I think Gabriel has signed a new contract as well. they've been at Maslow, Scali, Ethan Weneri I'm pretty certain Bakayo Saka is going to sign a new contract too so all of those things tell you that in the minds of the players and our best players that they feel they can achieve things Definitely, definitely and they can it's great news, that's really really great news I'm very happy and I'm glad I didn't look at my phone because that was a nice surprise that was fun I think they already are challenging for those big trophies and that's what players want to be doing. And they're at clubs where they can do that.

1:02:31And we all remember, listen to the years of Van Persie, Fabregas, Nasri, Adebayor, Torre, Kleb, Flamini. I could go on, but I don't want to, about players who left. And the reason, as you said, the reason they left is because they felt Arsenal players, for the most part, don't want to be battling for fourth. They want to be battling for first. and Arsenal couldn't offer that to them before, and they can now. And this Arsenal squad, realistically, should be in a title race for the next two, three, four years. Whether they win those title races or not is another conversation, and I look forward to the endless meltdowns and debates that we have about that.

1:03:13But this squad is so well placed that they should be comfortably involved in the conversation, not just in the Premier League, but in the Champions League too. this is one of the best squads in Europe if not the best squad in Europe and yeah I think I always think with these players so let's say Saliba wanted to go and and um the Arsenal if Arsenal couldn't offer him where could he go Man City I don't know that he'd do that because I think Arsenal could probably match the wages that Arsenal that Man City could offer and it's not massive step up same with Liverpool for him same with Chelsea not that he would want to go there anyway um so you look to the continent there's not many teams on the continent that can offer the kind of wages that Premier League teams can offer.

1:03:52PSG, that potentially is a bit of pulling power for Saliba, but maybe he wants to be in a more competitive league or something like that. Real Madrid and Barcelona are kind of the only two. Barcelona are in financial disarray, which means they can't offer the same wages a lot of the time to a lot of those best players, which means Real Madrid are kind of the only other option. And Real Madrid went for Hausson in the summer. They've got Rudiger, they've got Militao, they've got lots of defenders. So I was kind of confident that Saliba would sign. I was kind of in a camp that he would sign and like you say with Saka and all the players who have extended I'm kind of confident that a lot of them will because why would you want to leave Arsenal right now?

1:04:29People will say win trophies but there's no way you can guarantee a trophy win and I think Arsenal is probably a safe bet to be challenging for those trophies and that's kind of as a player as you're committing your future that's kind of all you can know for certain all you can guarantee is do you want to be in a team challenging winning, you know, is by the by it could happen it might not happen but challenging is definitely what you can guarantee and I think Saliba's confirmed that he thinks Arsenal are challenging and on the right track and I'm really happy that's done hopefully when the soccer thing gets done it'll be the same story and the same with Gabriel and Myles and Ethan and all those players so it's great news it's great news and yeah really happy times for Arsenal

1:05:06Kaya Kaynak: Fantastic I mean you can maybe guarantee trophies if you go to Liga and play for PSG or if you go and play for Bayern you know those things but I don't think you know as fun as it would be to win those trophies. I don't think it's quite the same as, let's say, Arsenal going to win the Premier League or Arsenal winning the Champions League. I think those are bigger and better achievements and hopefully these guys can help us do that. Right, we had better leave it there. Kaya, it's ever a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed. My pleasure, Andrew. Thank you very much.

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1:06:14Kaya Kaynak: Thank you very much indeed to Kai. I hope you enjoyed that. I thought it was a really interesting chat. Obviously, opinions in football vary wildly. So you might agree with some of that, all of that, none of that whatsoever. But it's a good faith discussion about the start to the season. Is it as bad as people are saying? I don't think so. Could we be better? Abso-fucking-lutely. There's a long way to go. And as we said just at the end there, the fact that somebody like William Saliba is committing his future to this club, to these teammates, to this manager, should tell you something about the way that they're thinking and what they think this club is capable of.

1:06:53Kaya Kaynak: So fingers crossed, as the season goes on, we do see those improvements and fingers crossed at the end of this season. We can all enjoy, regardless of what your opinion is now, the success of a trophy, a win, whatever it might be, that that at least is something we can all come together and admit is good, right? Right? I think if we did win something, if we did win a big prize and there were people complaining, can we all just make a commitment now to just ignore those twats? Would that be all right? Okay, we're agreed on that. It's just, you know, Arsenal have to go win the trophies now. So over to you, players, manager, etc.

1:07:32Kaya Kaynak: You do your shit, please. It would make all our lives better and easier. we will be looking ahead to the Newcastle game on Patreon if you want to join us for our usual Premier League preview podcast and get access to all the other stuff that we do on Patreon it's just$6 a month and you can sign up at patreon.com forward slash arseblog as for the Arsecast Extra after a couple of weeks of really really rapid turnaround post-game podcasts basically we will be reverting to Monday morning as usual old school as James just said to me when I checked in with him to find out his schedule so you can join myself and James on Monday morning hopefully a goodly morning after what is going to be a challenging game at St.

1:08:15Kaya Kaynak: James's Park let's hope we can do a bit better than last season I feel like we own Newcastle one at this stage so fingers crossed for that right I'll leave it there for now preview pod on Patreon, ArseCastExtra on Monday. For now, take it easy, folks, and we will catch you on the next one. Until then, cheers. Bye-bye.

1:09:23Music by Cooley

1:09:44Kaya Kaynak: Welcome back to Sky Sports, and we've just seen Arsenal beat Port Vale 2-0 in the EFL Cup. Jamie Redknapp, what did you make of the Arsenal performance this evening?

1:10:08Kaya Kaynak: It's very hard to argue with what you've said there, Jamie, but Michael Brown, what did you make of it?

1:10:25Kaya Kaynak: Jamie, it's quite an interesting counterpoint to your initial opinion. Do you think there's any validity to what Michael has said?

1:10:43Kaya Kaynak: I've got to say, guys, that is top, top, top analysis. And frankly, there's only one thing I can say.

1:10:53We'll be back. .