Episode 848 - Oh dear, we're quite good

0:23Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. It's an interlull, so there's not a great deal going on. However, there are bits and pieces that we can get our teeth into. There's a new deal for David Raya. There's all the stadium expansion talk. And, of course, the big, big news of the interlull so far is that Arsenal are launching their own range of diamond jewelry created using carbon extracted from the pitch at our iconic stadium. A collection created from the very turf where legends have played.

1:06Now, I'm not taking the piss here. I know it sounds like something I would make up, but it's absolutely true. It was on the Arsenal website this week. So if you fancy your own Arsenal diamond, that's good news for you. Unfortunately, all the diamonds come with Fly Emirates and Visit Rwanda stamped across them. So just give and take with this shit. Just to be clear, that bit was a joke. Anyway, there are things to talk about, genuinely. More interesting things, I promise you. And it's my pleasure to welcome back to the show. For the first time this season, a bit of a catch-up is overdue with our old friend, Clive Palmer.

1:43Good morning, Clive. Hello, Andrew. How are you? I'm very well, thanks. How are you sort of facing into this interlull? What's your coping mechanism, if you like? Are you just sort of letting the games pass you by or do you keep a close eye on things? Obviously, we've had some injury issues so far this season. Is it just a case of like watching and from behind the sofa, almost hoping nobody else picks up a knock? Yeah, it's about to kick off now, isn't it? And of course, Arsenal are the best team in the world. Everyone says we've got the best squad. All the data says we're going to win the league.

2:16We're at the top of all the underlying numbers. And every pundit saying, oh, we're great. So the doom side of me is just waiting for something, isn't it? So I try not to connect to it too closely. And I'm off in – I go different places. I've got a non-league this weekend. I'm going to be watching – I'm doing lots of NFL watching, funny enough. I'm watching NFL stuff back in the old Dallas Cowboys days. And I'm trying to disconnect away from football because the stresses are just around the corner. We are wise men. We know how this goes, right? So I'm preparing myself for that. Do you find it more stressful than it used to be?

2:55I have to say, you know, I remember thinking like, and I think I said this to James on the Arse Cast Extra, and it might be just, I don't know if it's an age thing. I don't know if it's the fact that we've finished third or second, rather, three times in a row, that we're all so desperate for success. And we're also aware that this is a team that has the potential to achieve success. That with that comes a kind of stress along with the sort of all day, every day football coverage that we are part of, right? We have to hold our hands up and say that we're part of that. But I think I find it a bit more stressful than I used to.

3:38I'm not saying there's comfort in being crap. That's not what I mean. But everything coming together before the Newcastle game, I remember sitting there, I was about to do the live blog. And I remember thinking, why am I doing this to myself in a way, you know? And I absolutely accept that I am very, very lucky and privileged to be able to do what it is that I do. And I don't take it for granted. but there's a small part of your brain that goes like, if I didn't follow football, maybe I'd just be at peace in a meadow somewhere, reading a book, or maybe I just find something else to be completely stressed about.

4:15But I don't know. What's your experience with it? You know, the sort of quality of this Arsenal team versus the lack of tangible success, you would say, and our desperation for that to come to fruition. Every single week I go to the Emirates, I ask myself that same question. Why do I do this, let alone pay for the privilege? It really does hit. But you just wouldn't, if you could be there, you're just there, right? I think there is an underlying edginess around. It's in me anyway. Because despite the last few years, let's go for the last three years. The first year, it was all hope and we didn't expect it.

4:53It was great. The second year, we took a while to find our team. But once we did, I thought we were the best team, but just not quite good enough. and the third year was just not very good was it it was injury it wasn't great we got second but let's not pretend we were competing because we weren't but this year Andrew from the very first home game and the sun came out and as they came out of that tunnel and I looked around the pitch and I've gone oh dear we're quite good oh dear we're quite good we're quite good oh oh no now what you know now i'm going to be oh i'm going to be even more invested in this now you know sure before when you got four academy kids on the bench in the champions league quarter final you can always find a way to say well we weren't quite ready blah blah blah sure this year it feels different everything feels different when i'm looking at the pitch i'm looking down i'm looking at the focus i'm looking at the manager i'm saying mate can you just calm down a bit it's september chill chill but they're so on it they're so on it and i'm finding less things to be concerned about which concerns me you know what's going on we're good we're doing everything right and we look we look buried we got tactical diversity we're doing different things in attack our defenders are massive and they're sharp and i'm looking around i'm going oh dear we can rest deck and rice in a game when no one even blinks it's it's actually harder to cope with in some ways and that edginess is around i can't deny it's around if it's in me it could be in other people sure and um and uh but it's a good edginess and i think um that may turn in which we have a big game win and it'll soon turn into the explosion of joy etc but we all we all know what the goal Sure.

6:41I mean, I think that, you know, that period, let's say between the draw with Manchester City, the final whistle after the game against Manchester City and the start of this interlal is a perfect example of what it is that you're saying about that edginess, you know, because we could all, listen, you go behind early against Man City, you're at home, you basically dominate the game, you make City play in a way that they do not normally play. and there's a sort of nervousness that comes with that because you're desperately seeking a goal. Eventually it arrives in the 90-odd, whatever minute it was that Gabriel Martinelli scored what turned out to be goal of the month on match of the day.

7:24So a brilliant goal. But the sort of post-mortem of Manchester City versus what came next, the win over Newcastle, the win over Olympiacos, the win over West Ham, and all of a sudden you're going into the international break and you're top of the table and it is quite interesting to consider how this season is it's going to be a roller coaster an emotional roller coaster isn't it and it's sort of like do you ever see those videos they pop up on instagram it's either somebody on a roller coaster or a fairground attraction and it's a you have the camera on them and there's one you know one person on one side going i love this and the other one's going jesus fuck fuck get me off i don't want to be on this you know i i think that probably encapsulates where we are as as a fan base without trying to speak too generally so much has gone into this season and so much has gone into this team this squad that we're looking at right now when you look at what happened during the summer and what we did and how we invested and the players we brought in and how rounded this squad is it is you know all of that is is the cocktail of what this season is uh and it's gonna how it's gonna play out right yeah i think also andrew we're so much more informed now right so um when we first met we just rock up to a game have a chat have a few drinks go home now with my phone i can tell you how many touches a player's had during the game right as what he's doing in his average position we've got so much more information when the game finishes a whole new game starts where you get told about your game what you did what you did right what you did wrong the first people to get that chance get the narrative and then for the next week we then have to respond to that right so there's an information overload it's very hard to maintain your own connection to a game of football that allows you to see it in a clean way but that you can't help it seeps into you some days i handle it better than others i get swept up as well on occasions, particularly around media narratives.

9:26I'm trying my best to hold a clean connection to what we're watching. But I don't deny, when you said, did it feel different? It does feel different. You know, even though we've both seen us win the league and win cups, et cetera, if you win something now, we have not got the experience of what's going to happen. We don't have it, right? So I think it'd be times 50, in case what we've seen in the past. And so, yeah, that all leads to the little bit of underlying tension there. And I don't think that tension will go away until we're, if we were lucky enough to be 10 points clear. And even then, I could think of a scenario that we could trip over the line.

10:07So, yeah, it's just the nature of the beast, really, and how you manage to control that. Yeah. You know, you know, what occurred to me is, you know, as you were saying that was that, that the closest analog I can get to that or to this is, you know, the period under Arsene Wenger where we didn't win anything and everyone was so desperate and we came close to that, you know, Carabao Cup League Cup thing, you know, and that fucking, you know, scratching at old wounds there. But the celebration plus relief of the 2014 FA Cup final is, I think, what we will experience. But like you say, times 50. And I wonder if Mikel Arteta was part of that team, part of that squad.

10:56He experienced a lot of that angst as a player because he arrived in 2011. Arsenal didn't win anything until 2014. and it had already been, what, 2005 since we'd last won the FA Cup. So that experience of external pressure, and I'm sure internal pressure, is not something that's going to be new to Mikel Arteta. And I do wonder if within his experiences as a player at Arsenal, which I think have gone some way to inform the way that he is as a manager in certain aspects, and I've talked about that before, But I do wonder if this pressure that we are existing in and this hyper intense narrative that exists around Arsenal Football Club and this particular iteration of Arsenal Football Club might be something that he can use.

11:54You know, it's not out of his wheelhouse. and I think while we, you know, outside are sort of helpless to an extent, we have to sort of put ourselves in the hands of the manager and the players every time they go out on the pitch. What they can do is within their control. You know, what he can do as a manager, as a coach, as a tactician, as a club, what we do in the transfer market, how we build out the squad, those are things that they can control and I do wonder if, you know, those three years coming second might resonate a bit with Arteta and hopefully play out over the course of this season that it isn't something that will demoralize them, certainly not yet, but maybe motivate them.

12:38Yeah, I think so. I think if you think about it a bit more strategically, we've had the three years, which we all know about. We took a couple of years to get there, right, to get to this point. But now we're here and we've taken a step in the summer, really. We've almost reset. We've brought in eight players. and they all seem to be really quite good and usable. So there's been a turnover in the squad. There's been a contract renewal side of things. There's been a manager's had a contract recently. We got a new sporting director that popped in in March. And so there's been a form of a reset here.

13:15And a new board, a new executive as well. Well said, well said. You've got a new executive, new CEO. And so there's a reset happening. And what they're saying is people think three seconds, maybe they've peaked. We're saying, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is just the start of something. We are restating who we are. And we are restating our ambition. We are investing in this current squad and the people we want to invest in. Even the people that have done well by us are getting pay rises. And without contracting, so we're saying you are our people. You've given us stability. We're going to keep this environment stable.

13:53we're projecting with you guys for the next three years minimum that we can get where we want to get to and so i think it's really smart to teach in from an executive point of view so despite the noise out there we're saying no no this is how we behave this is what we do internally this is how we create stability and um so people can say if tartare has not done it by christmas he could go that was a chat at the start of the season with the start that we had and he could be in trouble I always felt a bit of a setup that fixed to this. But here we are, secondly, national break, and we're top. So now it's, well, there's no excuses now.

14:29Look at this squad. Look at this squad that you have. You can't win. You can't win until you win. Exactly. And until you win, you have to just take it. You have to take it. But how they create that protective state for the internal side of the things is by your actions and by signing the people that we've signed, re-signing the people that have re-signed. and there's a couple more to come if they're all signing which we all project they will do there's a noise outside there's a noise inside and the noise inside sounds a lot prettier sometimes the noise outside and we have to we are we're part of that angel but we have to wear it as well don't we that's true that's true and i think we do our best not to make too much noise or if you know we make slightly soothing sea sounds uh for for the people who are listening to us.

15:14He mentioned, you know, giving a pay rise to players without extending their deals. And for the second time this summer, that looks to be what Arsenal have done. Firstly, Andrew Trossard, a player who was, you know, linked with a move away in the summer, but he was given a pay rise and not a contract extension. And it's an unusual thing. You don't normally see that at football clubs. And David Raya is the next one who has been, I think it was Sammy Mockbell in the BBC rewarded for his performances and his consistency with a pay rise, but not a contract extension. And, you know, I know people have different opinions on this, but to me, this makes a lot of sense.

15:58You know, the part of managing a team and managing a squad isn't simply about who you pick or how you train or, you know, what subs you make. It's ensuring that within that group, there is a level of harmony or you actively avoid disharmony. And I think in the cases of these two players, right, Raya and Trossard came from what you would call financially mid-table clubs, right? Brighton and Brantford have been very, very good and have sort of been there or thereabouts in the European conversations a couple of seasons in a row. So it's not a footballing point of view. But when they arrive at Arsenal, chances are they got a decent pay rise, but it still left them some way short of Arsenal's top earners.

16:48Raya is the number one goalkeeper. Trossard has done very well for Arsenal. No player since his arrival has more goals or assists than Leandro Trossard. And I think you have to be cognizant of that. You also have to be cognizant of the fact that in re-signing Ethan Ranieri and Myles Lewis Skelly, Arsenal have raised the floor of the salary level, right? So you have these sort of 18-year-olds, brilliant young players, loads of potential. And in order in this day and age to keep those players, you probably have to push the boat out a little bit when it comes to salaries and finances and bonuses and things like that.

17:29So to keep your senior players happy, it makes a lot of sense, doesn't it, to say, okay, we're going to put you a bit closer to the top earners and we're going to make sure that your seniority is acknowledged and respected so that you're not sitting there going, well, why is an 18-year-old earning the same as or more than I am? Yeah, you're absolutely right, Andrew. Well said. And I'll give a little history lesson here, like a Tim Stillman would. Okay. I think basically, do you remember Big Gabby when he had that issue at the start of the season. And he was the first one to sign the contract, the second contract per se.

18:05But the numbers didn't look right after a period of time based on what he was doing on the pitch and his level of seniority. And he got tapped on the shoulder, didn't he? Maybe Saudi Arabia, who knows what. Those are the rumours. And he was unsettled at the start of that season. And we dropped points at the start of that season. Remember when he wasn't playing and we were playing these strange systems? And so it's almost like proactive management, isn't it? you've nailed it you've got to look after your people who are producing and so rather than leave someone there and say you're saving a few quick because he signed a contract early you got to treat them right if they're producing and that's what we've done and gabby's got his money now and same for trossar because his numbers are irrefutable since he's joined you know and i he is on less than reese nelson you know so that that needs to change you know so um and they've done it and so that means that you don't have a flight risk and you you you almost proactively stop any sort of discourse in the dressing room.

18:59So I think it's a really smart thing to do. Obviously clubs work on exit plans, et cetera. And if you're not extending trust hard, you know what's potentially coming up next summer, but that's next summer. And that guy's career is protected in the short term. So I think it's a really, really good thing to do. And again, it prioritises stability in the dressing room. I think that's the most important thing, particularly this season when we're going to get tested mentally, wise definitely well sure as well and i think as you know another aspect of this is that as pleased as we all are with our big squad and as happy as we are with the eight signings that we have made this summer there is a big challenge on the manager's hands to keep everybody happy when it comes to playing time when it comes to minutes when it comes to their involvement when it comes to how they feel about their status in the squad you know i i have to say you know i've i've had some concerns about Gabriel Martinelli.

19:56I think some of the criticism of him went way over the top, but it's fair, I think, to have had some concerns that maybe he's a player who potentially hasn't reached the heights that we thought he might. I don't think it's unfair to talk about him in that regard or discuss him in that regard. But I loved what he did last week or the week before where he came out and having come off the bench to score in Bilbao, came off the bench to score in against Man City. Hasn't maybe started one game since, I'm not sure. But, you know, hasn't really been starting, even with those contributions. But his attitude was, we need the best players here.

20:36We all want a big squad. You know, it's the same in Brazil when he's got all these players to contend with. I like that attitude. But not every player is going to be as open or sanguine to that level of competition. So I think over the course of the season, this is going to be a challenge it is going to be something arteta has to deal with so the last thing you want is a player being unhappy because of a contract because of finances because of money you know if you are prepared to give this guy this then you have to be ready to acknowledge the contributions of other players so maintaining harmony is not easy in a big group in a big squad You know, there's so many personalities.

21:18They're all thinking they should play. Every single player in that squad thinks I should be on that pitch. I can recognize that this guy is great. You know, I know, I've played football. And, you know, you think that you can do the job as well as, if not better, than that guy. So, you know, it hurts when you're left out of the team. and it is going to be something that Arteta has to handle this season, isn't it? It is and players are the best at seeing the future when it comes to selection, right? So they look at the rhythms, they look at how the manager works, they look at what colour people are getting training on certain days.

21:59Do you get the handshake? Do you get the hug? They can see all the signs and the signals, right? If you're prioritised or not. But right now in what I call the points accumulation phase of the season, we're going to Europe and we're going to the League Cup, we're playing every three, four days. They're all thinking, yeah, it's okay. I'm going to be playing. There's so many games. I'm going to be playing it. National break. I'm going to be playing. I'm going to be playing. But they all think they're going to be playing in a Champions League quarterfinal against Real Madrid and come next year. They all think that.

22:26And when that time comes, that's when it hits home, who really is a priority. And that's when we will be selecting our strongest team for the real big games. and come next summer now, that's going to be the interesting thing. Okay, where do I fit in this squad? Where do I fit in the hierarchy? I've done my bit. I've got, hopefully, I've topped my 35 appearances, but have they been in the right games? You know, have they been in the right games? And will I be in those games next year based on how the games have gone, how players have played and where do I fit in the order of things? And that's going to underpin the next phase, Andrew, which is our selling strategy.

23:04Because when you have the level of quality players that we have, then suddenly if they don't quite make it, they're being sold on a higher bar because we are good, really good. And that means we can start to regenerate and we're bringing the money to widen the sort of transfer part. So I think what we've done this year in a form of reset to build that, we'll build, it's a great squad, but it'll also build the first phase of our selling strategy. It's going to be a place to watch, right? But in the meantime, we benefit because we get a situation where in the last week or so, where we had a couple of fullbacks, Miles and Ben White start against the NPR cost.

23:42They start, play pretty well. Come the Saturday, come the weekend, Califure and Timber play against West Ham and we're the best two players on the pitch in the first half. How has that happened? Because they've been rotated and rested and there's a level of competition there. And so we are benefiting from this because that game we lost last year against West Ham, this year we jogged it and won 2-0. And so that comes from the squad depth and quality. So it's going to be hard, but it's a first world problems, mate. I am okay with it right now. Tell me that. Oh, absolutely. Me too. Me too. I think it's what we've needed, I think.

24:18It's what we've needed to sort of push ourselves forward again. And I think you're right that maybe next summer there'll be a couple of casualties along the way. That's just the way it goes. There'll be some good players, players maybe we don't want to see go, players who maybe potentially don't necessarily want to go, but are in a position where that becomes a reality for them and for the football club, you know? Do you look at, you know, just touching on what you said there, do you look at games like West Ham and Newcastle as markers of progress this season, you know? Because you get these things all the time.

25:01After seven games, Arsenal were this last season. After 15 games, Arsenal were this. But based on the equivalent fixtures, we're up six points on what we got from Newcastle and West Ham last season. I don't think it was a case really that with West Ham, that first year we lost to them 2-0 around Christmas time or just before New Year. We played them off the park and couldn't score. It was kind of a crazy three-week period where we just found it really tough to find the back of the net before we got motoring in the second half of the season. Last season, the performance against West Ham was crap.

25:38It was crap last season against Newcastle away and not great the season before against Newcastle away. Whereas I could, you know, regardless of result, and I don't want to say the result wasn't important because it was huge, particularly the way that we won it. But you could see the performance was markedly different. so in terms of performance and in terms of results are you looking at those two as like okay this these are how i sort of gauge where we are this season compared to last yeah the west down game i i carry scars into that game and i was nervous and but no one else was around me and everybody i spoke to said well that was easy it was not it was a non-event and i think yeah well that's a measure for me but the real measure was newcastle wasn't it because we know how tough it up there.

26:23They wait for us. They roll out their best team always. The midfield threes never injured when they play against us, is it? They're nicely rested and they come firing out. And I thought that to me was the moment of the season so far. I thought the performance was excellent. How we approached it tactically, how we approached it with a level of assurance. Everything we did was great, you know. And then to win it the way it was, sort of stays in our memory because of the last minute wins. Even winning by a set piece, wonderful. I feel so pleased for the fans who were there. and so yeah that was the one for me because we went there and i always thought eddie howell does so well against our tetra i think he knows where we're gonna go attacking wise he kicks our wing us to death but we we did different things we we played narrow we use our fullbacks wide we then worked them hard we stretched them we moved them around we created chances down the center and we we won the game tactically physically we won it in all different aspects and we needed to win it and we messaged after didn't we we said that is huge yeah it was huge you need those things as a group of players you need those memories you need to be there there are players on that pitch like Jokeres who hadn't been through a close win like that with this team I felt he had a very good game that day and he participated so that was the one for me that made me think whoa this this is it mate this is it they are really focused I find out another one was Forrest at home we were so focused that day in everything we did and even when we were two three and up i can see this team working so hard i thought wow lads relax no relax i was literally saying relax you know that was what i was seeing and um so i just think there's a different focus there now and um it's it's you know i always say i have i say a lot of things and did you know i always say Yeah.

28:08You get things when you deserve it. And even though we've come second last three years, maybe the second, you know, the second year, I thought we were very close to deserving to win it. You know, sure. City nicked it, but we were really close. If we got it, I don't think anyone could say we didn't deserve it. Yeah, that's very, very close. You know, first year we were just kids and the third year we weren't ready. But now I'm looking at it and thinking, Craig, you know what, we could deserve this. But based on how we've acted and what we've done and not everything we've done i'm looking at a team i'm looking at how we're playing it feels so different particularly attacking wise it feels so different it feels so varied with the things we're speaking about last year we haven't got a left side we're not really saying that much anymore you know we always go to sack all the time well he's been injured half the season and we're still picking up points you know the things we would talk about even just a few short months ago they've just been diluted by what we're seeing.

29:03And we've just got to continue it now and stay in the room and don't bottle it, son. No, well, that's it. I mean, I do think there is a, you know, Arsenal are still, some of our best players are still really young, right? Saka, William Saliba, Martinelli, you're still only 24, I think, you know. But there is a real spine of experience as well, isn't there? When you look at the ages of these players, I was looking at Ben White turning 28 this week. I was like, whoa, Ben White's 28. That's not to write him off or anything like that. But you know, Zubimendi's 26. Havertz is 26. Rice is 26. Odegaard, 26.

29:54Eze, 27. Yacara is 27. Gabriel, 27. You know, key players in this team. Raya, you know, 30 years of age, you know, nothing for a goalkeeper, as we know. And there are players like Marino and Trossard, you know, at the upper end of things as well. So it feels to me like the blend is pretty much perfect this time around. Then you've got these sort of guys snapping at the heels from below, Miles and Ethan and Max Downman to a lesser extent because he is still so young it feels like the blend is right not just in terms of the ages but in terms of the experiences that they have had as a player and as a group and William Saliba and I know I've said this before but I thought there was something so encouraging about him who could go anywhere he wanted anywhere in the world any football club in the world would have him tomorrow and he said i am not leaving until i win things i mean he's not saying right i'll win things and then i'll fuck off that's not what he was saying but he's saying he's not leaving until he has won things at arsenal so you know all of that you know pain and frustration and heartache at the the second places coupled with all that other other stuff really does make a difference it does and they're all doing it together isn't it there's a comment there was a bit of chat saying that gabrie on sleeve had a discussion about what they wanted to do in their careers and both said they want to win here together and they're both signed you know so talking and your actions are two different things and um so there's also a brotherhood in there we know that just from watching them play and they want to win because the players that we sort of uh fates from yesteryear they've won big things for us.

31:46I think there's some exceptional players in this group, but you can't quite commit a thousand percent to that statement until they win something big. And when they do, they will get their flowers. So basically, what's Sleba? Sleba was always a little worried, wasn't he? He was always a little worried in the back of our minds. I wonder if he'd really committed, blah, blah, blah. Well, he's shown that he's as committed as anybody else. And this really indicated to me that something good is happening there. and now there's a time when we used to just not have these players stay we just see them go and we have to rebuild again we just need to do the final thing I think it's very important from an executive point of view they're saying let's just compete at the highest level blah blah blah but I'm not sensing that anymore I'm sensing a real commitment to win to really win and it's going to be tested because Liverpool and Man City do not rate us mentally wise they see us as a smaller club and we haven't won in 20 odd years right so i think we just need to hold ourselves together not get too big in our boots too early because only a few games only one point ahead that could change in a weekend but also not be blind to what we're actually seeing what is actually happening here you know we talk about football all the time and we have less and less things to moan about that's going drastically wrong you know and um and they are future proofing us you know the age of the group is just another signal for that and yet look at the contracts now so if i know i know if you i don't want to go too far ahead because if we were to win something big this year then we would immediately be favorites the year after because the age of the group with that final step you know so and so what we're planning here just needs to have that first win and then it can really stabilize and grow into something else yeah no i agree i think it's a it's almost a psychological barrier at this stage not Not just the last three years, but the fact that you've got to go back to 2004 for Arsenal's last title.

33:43You know, those things start to become an institutional weight, if you like. You know, regardless of era, regardless of manager, regardless of players, it becomes a weight on the club itself that we've got to lift. So, you know, I'm really hopeful that we can do that. I wanted to ask you about two players I just mentioned a moment ago, Myles Lewis-Gellion, Ethan Warneri. both signed new deals, which is great. Both of them have been, I'm not going to say peripheral, but maybe haven't played quite as much as they might have expected or might have liked. How do you view the way Arteta has been using them this season?

34:25I mean, he talked about left back and Calafiore and Lewis Skelly, and he said, listen, sometimes it's not that you've done anything wrong. it's that the guy who's come in has just been so good that you've got to stick with him so it's not a question of you being poor but this other guy is just like in the moment and you have to recognize that and i think we all accept that you know form etc etc with ethan it's a little bit different he did come on against forest he did come on against leeds we were wondering would he be the guy to come on for for odegaard when he got injured um on saturday against west ham he went for Zubimendi.

35:03You can't argue that that was the wrong decision based on the way Zubimendi played. Is this maybe a little, not a reminder, but they have to, at 18 years of age, maybe work harder a little bit to sort of convince a manager or to get themselves into his first team thinking. Do you think there's something that Arteta is sort of deliberately doing to sort of hold them back to see how they react to this based on the size of the squad that we have? Or is it just too early to say at this point in the season? I'm curious as to what you feel about how, you know, you manage two 18-year-olds of this talent where you don't want to make it too easy for them, but you don't want to dishearten them.

35:51And they do have to recognize that they're in the biggest, highest quality Arsenal squad that any of us have probably ever seen. Yeah, I think they do. and I think they have to recognise there's development for both of them. Ethan's development may be, if he wants to be a player that plays in midfield, his development may be off the ball. He's got to be better off the ball, he's got to work off the ball, he's got to press off the ball, he's got to work to receive it better. On the ball, I don't think we can quibble with his talent. He's quite clear to see he has it. So he's got an off-the-ball development to do.

36:22And things like Martins do, if that's going to be his position, which I'm not sure it's going to be, if you're going to be in wide areas, you've got to learn how to cross the ball. We've got to learn how to switch the point of the attack. You've got to learn to use that right foot on occasions. It's all about adding layers to your game. And you look at, say, Califuri, an experienced international player. He can do all sorts of things, left foot, right foot, and he's got the physicality as well. And he can stand in midfield. He can stand out wide. He can just do everything. And so if you want to take him, you've got to do everything.

36:50You know, if I'm miles, I'll be practicing corners, mate. I would, you know, just to make sure you're adding another thing to your toolbox, per se. If I'm Ethan, I want to make sure that I don't just play in the other guard position. I want the manager to realize I can play in other positions. And I've got to make sure I give him more opportunities to pick me, and I've got to show him when I get the opportunity. Maybe I need to practice my Deadpool three kings to make sure if I get the opportunity, that's something that I can be relied upon. You've got to bring the lot to get into this team. You've got to bring the lot.

37:20And it's interesting to see what happens. I think dressing room harmony, I know you touched on it earlier, but football wise do people accept that they may have to wait we will see we will see but if they're 18 they're both 18, 19 one's in the England squad maybe playing for England as we're recording tonight I think it's going to be so interesting to see how they cope with this you know mentally I hope they see it as a great opportunity to develop because in the squad right now we've got a lot of players that have improved and I think the manager is a really good developmental mental coach you know he really wants to bring you on tactically and he can change your game he can round your game it's a great environment and they are ahead of schedule you know so they can't lose just stay around work train do your opportunities and if it doesn't work out for you then obviously things will happen but i i think it's good what's good they're going for at the moment yeah i mean i remember talking to somebody around the time of um you know the open training the members training day.

38:23I don't know if you were there, but I was talking to somebody. So he pointed out to me that Miles was working with Gabriel Aynce on crossing the ball with his left foot from the sort of left corner of the box area. And then I saw the cross that he put in against West Ham on Saturday. Delivered it perfectly. Martinelli should score there. And I think, you know he'd be the first guy to tell you that that he should score so I think that's an example of what you're talking about there is is identifying aspects of your game as a young player that that do need work that you know give Ethan Wynary the ball outside the box on his left foot he knows what to do there's not much that you can improve there it's not to say he's perfect but you know we know what he can do from those situations so like Lewis Skelly when it came to those sort of crosses into the box from that angle, something that he has clearly been worked on, it almost came to fruition in a Premier League game.

39:26Yeah, exactly. And I think, you know, Miles is such an interesting person. The difference between Miles and Ethan, really, Andrew, a lot is his personality. You know, Miles has got a big personality. He can cope with the situations mentally. In the European game, he was excellent, you know. And, okay, he got a lot of fouls, but he was so, so, you couldn't miss him on the pitch, you know, and he reconnected to the team very, very quickly. I thought on the day, Ben White maybe struggled with that to reconnect to his teammates in the same way. Both rusty per se, but one maybe a bit rusty than the other.

40:02Now, Ethan now has a quieter personality, right? And so if you look at our number 10 and our skipper, he's not a quiet footballer. When he's on the pitch, you can't miss him, you know? And he dominates all phases of the game. You know, he drops deep, goes into the middle, then goes high and he's always available and you need that big on-ball personality and i think ether development is more emotional and a milestone development is just just just time you know it's just time on the pitch it's not it's not anything else and they're both really top talents but i think they are in the right place to develop and i don't think it's a problem right now because they're so young but in a year 18 months time this conversation could be different if nothing's change right yeah we'll see you mentioned that you don't necessarily think that'll be miles's position i know the the arrival of piero and capier is is not permanent yet it's a loan deal but the the word is that that's one that arsenal much like the david raya deal will do a loan then make it permanent the the following summer so if you've got califiori and capier and miles i love depth as much as the next guy but that's too much depth for one position you know to keep everybody happy so do you see maybe a slight transition from miles in terms of where he plays and where we might end up seeing him in the longer term i think left back has allowed him the opportunity for us to even see him because let's be honest he may not got anywhere near the team in midfield you know and given the plans given who we bought this summer etc but left back has given a great opportunity so he's got him into the england team he's got a couple england caps he's called a goal So it's worked for him.

41:43And he's working on that because that's what you do. You know, you work on something because you have a chance to stay at the very, very top level. But funny enough, I just saw a comp the other day of him playing for the England youth teams in midfield. And it's very hard to watch those comps and not think there's another position for him out there. That he hasn't got to think about first time left footy crosses in wide areas. I mean, there are things that just come natural to you. You know, and he is a natural midfielder that's talented enough to play left back for his country, which is a really great thing to have.

42:15But over time, your body changes as you grow and you develop, get older. And maybe you don't want to be in those wide areas, sprinting up and down versus the Rodrigues of this world. Maybe that will change, you know. This time we went to Madrid last year, or this year, sorry, earlier. I wanted him to play against those wingers. He was the perfect fullback for them, you know. And we were worried about Calif. He wasn't fit, but we were worried about his speed, etc. But now the situation has changed because he gets tighter quicker, doesn't get beat defensively, and he causes problems offensively.

42:47Sometimes the team can tactically come back to you. So, yeah, I think it's just going to be interesting. But I do think eventually he will go back into midfield. But when? I'm not worried. I'm not worried. Okay, yeah. We can cross that bridge when we come to it. One of the other big stories this week, talking points, is about the stadium and a potential stadium expansion, which has been in the ether for quite a while, right? And I don't think there's anything particularly conclusive or concrete about the story that came out this week, which was in the Telegraph, I think. You know, Arsenal potentially using Wembley as a home if renovations or improvements need to take place to the stadium.

43:37How do you view the, I don't want to say the need, because there's demand, right? Right now there is huge demand for Arsenal tickets. Both, you know, I guess what you would call the regular fan and for the club's point of view, maybe a need to or an option, an option, an ability, maybe is the best way of putting it to sort of add more corporate, more hospitality, raise more revenue that way. Strike while the iron is hot, et cetera, et cetera. It's almost 20 years old. It'll be 20 years old next year, the stadium. Is this inevitable in the sort of football world that we live in right now where, you know, Real Madrid redeveloped the Bernabeu, Barcelona redeveloping the camp now if they can, you know, find some money down the back of the sofa to finish it off.

44:37Liverpool have upgraded their stadium. There's a new stadium not too far down the road in close to North London that, you know, is an impressive thing to look at, even if what lies inside is, you know, not to any of our tastes. You know, how do you think about the need to do that and what the cost might be as well? Because if you've got to move for two seasons to Wembley, you're sacrificing a lot for, you know, listen, clubs have to think medium and long term. Absolutely they do. There's no question about that. But, you know, and I don't think there's anything imminent by the way, because, you know, you've got to go through so many processes to get anything done when it comes to planning and planning permission and all the paperwork and that kind of stuff.

45:28So I don't think this is something that's going to happen tomorrow or next season or anything close like that. But it is something that they have to consider from a sporting perspective as well. It's not just about the financial aspects of redeveloping a stadium. It's what you have to cope with on the pitch when it's not your pitch, if that makes sense. Yeah. When I saw the story, it wasn't a surprise. Me and you have been to SoFi Stadium, haven't we? Once you go there and you recognise that the owner of that team owns your own football team, it doesn't take a mathematician to work out that we need to do work at the Emirates.

46:03you know and um because this stadium at so far is just something incredible right so so that you can also see this was on the meeting agendas in the executive rooms for a long long time now do we have to do it i think we do it's a matter of when and how right so there's one for me it's not the capacity you know its capacity goes up 7 000 and but it's more corporate and that's not the thing that they're really going for the the real thing is multi-purpose it's multifunctional right so if you can have a pitch underneath that moves out an astro pitch comes in and we can do american football then other events there and things like that that's where the revenue is spurs have around 30 non-football events a season and they make around around six million every time there's an nfl game there right so two million rent when i get all the food and i get all the drinks etc those numbers can be refuted but i I read them.

47:02And so that tells you the potential. Oh, our owner owns an NFL team. You know, the NFL contract. Why can't that be arsehole? You know, these are things you project when you're an executive down the road. I think that's where the win is. Madrid have doubled their matchday revenues by changing that stadium. So that's a lot, Angie, that's a lot. And given the financial sort of restrictions in the game, given the fact that tv will eventually at some point flatten out the way to make your money and to increase your revenues is by what you're doing with your ground your real estate so it all makes sense now the sporting cost well the last time this happened it was last time we won the league we had one of the best team in our history and now we talk about the best squad we've ever had in our history and this has come up again and that team had to break up may have broken up anyway but did it break up quicker because we couldn't keep our players and we didn't win trophies for a long time what i don't want to see is now we're just getting excited about a new group of players look at their ages look at the profiles look at this coverage we potentially can win something next three years something really really big that will stave us for a long time but now this has come up and i know it's not going to happen at the same time but I can't help but have those sort of little scars come up again.

48:27Sure. But I also understand this is the nature of the beast. Liverpool are expanding. Everyone's doing it. Chelsea got plans as well. Manceta got a new fan park. It's 300, 400 million that can bring in revenues all around the ground. They're expanding their stadium. You have to look at your people around you and say, okay, we need to stay with or ahead. And this is the way to do it. The way we are positioned in London, closer to the city, there are things that we can do. We have to be doing this, whether we like it or not. We have to be doing it because we're in a dog-eat-dog world, right? So, yeah, I totally get it.

49:06And I don't think it's going to happen tomorrow, but I totally get it and understand it from almost all angles. The sporting one worries me because we take away an advantage. Sure. You can't deny that. Yeah, I mean, I think the talk is for maybe 10 ,000 extra seats. You know, that was the headline I think I saw in The Guardian, you know, raise the capacity to 70 ,000. There's a really interesting piece over on Arseblog News that Andrew Allen put together because the Emirates Stadium was built and designed by the same company that built the new Stadium of Light for Benfica in Lisbon. And they're currently doing things to that stadium to sort of increase the capacity, adding extra seats here and there.

49:55They're redeveloping the entire area around the stadium in a way that, as Andrew points out in the piece, we can't really do around ours. And there isn't really the need to do it there, but they're making basically what looks like a kind of futuristic Olympic village kind of place all around the stadium. So it doesn't become just a match day stadium. It becomes a sort of arena or a venue or a series of venues around that stadium, which generate that kind of revenue. So there are things that Arsenal can do. So if people want to go and have a look at that, I'll put a link to it in the show notes.

50:30You can click on it and have a read and just see what way, you know, certain things can be done within the infrastructure that we already have. I mean, do you think we had a question on our Discord from John Hossain, who said moving to Wembley wasn't good for us last time. And we didn't move to Wembley per se, but we played Champions League games at Wembley. Clive, as you well remember, we met before one of those many, many years ago. Barcelona came and beat us 4-2, which wasn't great. But, you know, it was necessary at that time for various reasons. I think it was mostly to do with UEFA's advertising hoarding regulations, something like that.

51:17But we moved to Wembley and it was hit and miss. There were some okay nights and there were some bad nights. And then there were nights where you thought, oh, why couldn't we play this game at Highbury, you know, where we had real home advantage. I'm not sure there is the mechanism for Arsenal to, because of, let's say, the way Liverpool did it, it was a stand that was redeveloped, whereas because of the sort of bowl shape of the Emirates, I'm not sure that there's a way that we could stay. So it would require going somewhere else for at least a season. Is there sort of, in your mind, a limit to the time that we should be away from our home stadium?

51:55Is it something that needs to be done within a season? It all depends on the plans, doesn't it? It all depends. Because no one's saying this is not going to be complex. You know, I think they're going to have to be doing things around stand height, potentially going down to create space, going down potentially. I just think about it. It's such, it does feel complex. It's looking at it. So I'm not sure how it's going to be done. But that complexity means time to me. We can all hope for a season, but you can see it going over quite easily. The miracles happen to Barcelona right now. It just hasn't got there yet.

52:37And things have changed very, very quickly. I mean, Barcelona won the league last season, not playing at Camp Nou. I think they were playing in the Stadio Olimpico in Barcelona, which was the old home of Espanyol. Espanol have moved out to a suburb of Barcelona in a new stadium of their own. So there's nothing to say that just because you're not at home, you completely lose out. But there is something, and players always talk, don't they, about sort of understanding where they are on the pitch, sort of intuitively in a way, because they just recognize the space that they're in. and that might sound really stupid or simplistic, but I think it is certainly something that we had to get used to when we moved from Highbury to the new stadium.

53:29That was so different that players were like, well, where the fuck, you know? Yeah, I think also people enjoyed coming to the Emirates as well. I think when Spurs played at Wembley, they struggled at the start. People enjoyed coming there, and they really put on their best show. But Spurs got some good results. playing at Wembley in the end. And they've been a bit Louisville a couple of times. And I think it's just, Wembley's a challenge anyway, Andrew, for people to get to and get in and out of. It's a challenge. Yeah, it's a nightmare, isn't it? It's not the best, you know, particularly for the sort of seasons we're playing now, the 60-game season.

54:02I mean, crikey, going to Wembley 30 times would be wonderful, wouldn't it? So, yeah, it's not the best. But I think from a football side of things, it comes back to where we started, your squad. If you're a good team, you're a good team, right? I think those soft factors mean less than they did. But when you are not such a good team, you need every single advantage that you have. Everything. And so, yeah, I think it could be a problem. But I also reckon football, we need to be at the forefront. And maybe when we did the Emirates move and everything changed TV-wise and Matchday Biffie was not such a big percentage of what you were doing, I think this time, I think we need to think about the future about making football an even bigger event than what it is right now.

54:51It is an event, you know, going to a home game. It's just a massive occasion. And that can grow. I think people are looking at this, you know. City, what they're doing around their ground, you know, it's an event. It's a place to visit. Manchester United are planned. They're on pencil in the moment. But again, it's an event to go to that ground. It becomes a place to visit, you know. And I think the future of football, it's going to be interesting. It's going to be so interesting to see what direction we go. But I do think we need to show ambition. Don't be afraid of that word, ambition, to position ourselves appropriately.

55:26And I think when I read that this week, my gut feeling was, yeah, this is interesting. But the actions and how becomes a bit more challenging. Is there a status thing? Is that something you need to sort of listen? Some people have talked about Arsenal in all kinds of ways. But, you know, the idea that we would become or would have the biggest stadium in London, is that sort of like a big dog move kind of thing? Does that shit matter? You know, is it really important whether or not it's about what you do on the pitch? For me, the most interesting thing about this, you know, the potential expansion, improvement, because I think technologically things have moved on.

56:05And, you know, to go back to SoFi and talk about what, you know, what you've got at your disposal, you know, within the stadium itself. And that's sort of your match view, if you like, from where you're sitting in the stand, the way you can view the pitch, the way you can view the screens, the amenities. I know American sport is very, very different to Premier League and to football, but in terms of what you have available to you within the concourses, those kinds of things. but you know if you're going to add x amount of of seats and you're going to add a certain percentage of those are going to be corporate and probably super corporate if that's the way of putting it where if you're going to really heighten that experience for the people who have the money then you're going to do the whole box thing in a different way and they're going to cost a fortune and they're not for me or for you or probably for anybody listening to this but there are people out there who can spend that money.

57:05But what's interesting to me is that these expansions and these improvements are only useful to you if your team is good. And it has to be good, right? Because it's not that long ago where we didn't have European football. It's not that long ago that we did have some European football, but you could get a ticket anytime you wanted. And you could probably sit anywhere you wanted inside the stadium because, you know, it was 50 % full because the team wasn't good. So does that suggest to you that at the very highest ownership level, there is an understanding that this commitment to improving the infrastructure or the stadium or what's around or the Wi-Fi inside it or the screens or the sound system or the corporate facility, that this is only useful to you if your team remains at the very top level, you know, in terms of competitiveness.

58:07Yeah, and so what have we done recently? By making sure these players are around and we have a level of footballing stability, right? So when you're going out to get your money and investment and to bring people to you to say, look, help us pay for this, you need to be a good side. So we got that box ticked, right? And so they're going to be around. I think it's important, Andrew. I don't want to just see another 2 ,000, 3 ,000 seats rolled around and we dig down a few feet and then add a couple of rows. It doesn't make sense. I think the point about status is important. You know, Chelsea have won a few more big trophies than us in recent, in the last two decades.

58:44And if they build a new ground, we can just sit there and watch them take over everything. That's not going to happen, right? So you need to get there ahead of time. And maybe some of this this week was to make sure that we got the Wembley thing in first. You never know, right? And so the executives live in the future and they will know what's happening in other areas and what the pressures are, the timelines are, etc. I do think, though, it's just not pie in the sky to me. There's a lot of sense behind thinking about this. And I think it does, you know, just look at the people around the world, what they're doing, you know.

59:19There are so many teams in the Premier League that are looking at their grounds, in Crystal Palace, looking at theirs, you know, Bournemouth looking at theirs, they all recognize where the extra money is. So we have to do it. But I do think we have to be a good side and we have to maintain. And what happened before, although they always said that the transfer money was ring-fenced. Remember those days? Ring-fenced away? That word ring-fenced, if I see that again. Well, I'm not sure it was ring-fenced because everyone was trotting off to Man City and wherever. to go and get there. Well, we've got to make sure it's reinfect this time for something, but definitely, otherwise it won't work.

59:57It won't work. All right. Well, wise words to finish us off. We better leave it there. Clive, as ever, pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

1:00:07Thank you very much indeed to Clive. You know where to find him in all the usual social media places. And of course, he is part of the Arsenal Vision podcast crew with their fancy new logo and all that. So look, I think we've done as much as we can today on this particular episode. There will, of course, be eyes on the internationals over the coming days. Hopefully our players involved in those play well, or if they can't play well, don't play at all. Or if they do play and don't play well, they don't get injured. I think that's pretty much what we're looking for. but I'm not going to complicate it by doing something as foolhardy as thinking about it any further.

1:00:49So how about that? Let's leave it there. We will have an Arscast Extra for you. I'm not entirely sure when. James, of course, has got a filming schedule. It could be Sunday. It could be Monday evening. I don't quite know yet, but we will have an Arscast Extra for you in the not too distant future. For now, though, wherever you are, wherever you're listening, whoever you're with. I hope you're all right. Thank you for being here. I really do appreciate it. Enjoy your interlal arsenal stress-free weekend as much as you possibly can. And you can join myself and James whenever we have that podcast for you.

1:01:25Until then, though, take it easy, folks, and we will catch you on the next one. Cheers. Bye-bye.

1:02:08I'm out. Thank you.

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