Episode 851 - Young guns, and younger guns

0:23Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. We're recording the morning after Arsenal's 2-0 win over Brighton in the Carabao Cup. Goals from Ethan Wineri and Bakaio Saka. It was a night for the Hale Enders. A debut for 17-year-old Andre Harriman-Anouss. A first start for Max Dowman to just 15 years of age. It's kind of ridiculous. but who can say he didn't acquit himself well against grown men last night nobody that's who so we're going to talk about that game in this podcast obviously it's a two-parter though a bit later on we will be talking to John Sperling who is a writer many of you will know and his book about Highbury the old stadium nearly 20 years now since Arsenal moved from Highbury to the new stadium anyway that book has been re-released so we're going to chat to John about bits and pieces in that book and as well give you a chance to win a copy of that book.

1:31So stick with us for all of that. First though, EFL Cup action, Arsenal 2, Brighton 0. And with me to discuss that game is Andrew Allen. Good morning, Andrew. Good morning. How are you? I am fine. Thank you very much. An interesting game last night. Interesting win for Arsenal. Let's start with the team. Mikel Arteta rang the changes like he was Quasimodo going up Notre Dame. Sometimes you just ring them lightly. Other times it's the big bell, and he rang the big bell with 10 changes from the team that beat Crystal Palace at the weekend. I mean, were you expecting that much rotation? Because, you know, we'd sort of talked about it, and the schedule is this, and the squad is big, but everybody kind of has this idea about Mikel Arteta that actually when push comes to shove, he's probably going to err just a little bit on the side of caution.

2:22So with only one starter from the Palace game, I think that was a little bit of a departure. Yeah, I mean, I have to say I was surprised about a couple of the names that were on the team sheet. But I do think when you step away from it and look at the context of the game and the fact that we have three away games in a week coming up, two of those in the league where we could seriously consolidate our credentials at the top of the table. And you kind of go, okay, yeah, maybe this does make sense given we've only got one fit established first team striker in Jokeres, you know, pull him out, give him the breather he needs because he has looked a little bit, was starting to look a little bit leggy maybe against Palace last week, last weekend.

3:07But yeah, I mean, it was a departure, but then the, you know, know we built a squad to allow for exactly this right you know you don't go and buy new players and spend you know hundreds of millions of pounds strengthening a squad and then not trust these guys he has to trust these guys now and you know i think with it being a home game as well there was you know that there was maybe a little bit more kind of comfort in that and um but ultimately also personnel availability came down to it right i mean losing players at the weekend in in Martinelli and Saliba. Saliba, yeah. I mean, it's just, it's not ideal.

3:47And I think while Saliba and Gabriel may well have dropped out anyway because of Muscara and Hinkapian needing minutes, I think Martinelli probably would have featured in some way, shape or form. Yeah. I mean, when you look at who's not available to Mikel Arteta, you know, in the forward line, Nani Madweke, Kai Havertz, Gabriel Jesus, Gabriel Martinelli, you could find a place for all of them in last night's team if they had been available, even if they hadn't played against Palace at the weekend. So those availability issues are certainly part of it. But with that, you might think a manager would err just a little bit on the side of caution.

4:30Even if Jocarez needs a rest, maybe you do something a little bit different and you play Mikel Marie. Well, a little bit different, but the same. You play Mikel Moreno up front because he's done a good job there. But what he did instead was give a first Arsenal start, a debut to Andre Harriman-Anouss, who was on nobody's list, I don't think, of players who might feature in this game. There was talk about Max Daman, of course, because he's been the guy in the spotlight and he started his first Arsenal start. but he clearly wanted to rest as many of the players that he he's put under some strain I think is the right way of putting it because of the schedule and because of what they've contributed so you know without those senior players who are injured to sort of dip down again into the academy I think was was really pleasing you know because whatever people say about this competition you know I think if you pick a strong team and you go out to Brighton people will be like well that was a waste of time.

5:31What did you pick the strong team for? But if you pick a team like this, acknowledging that you are prioritizing other competitions and the result doesn't quite go your way, I think there's probably more of an inclination from people to say, actually, I understand why you picked that team. I understand why you gave Victor Jacarez a rest, didn't even bring him off the bench. And the only way he could really realistically do that was to go down further into the academy for a player that, like I said, I don't think too many people had predicted would start this one. No, I mean, what a moment for the kid.

6:04I assume he got told probably the night before or something or maybe even on the morning. But what an opportunity for him. And I have to say, you know, I wasn't expecting a huge amount from a 17-year-old kid who, you know, has that gangly 17-year-old skinny frame going on against a Brighton team who, you know, even though they made changes, were still very, very strong. I mean, Van Hecker is a pain in the ass, whether you're Victor Jokeres or whether you're a 17-year-old coming in for your debut. I was just really impressed by his endeavour, I have to say. And I know that he'd been on the pre-season tour and Arteta spoke afterwards about the fact that he's seen him up close in training a lot recently and he felt like he deserved the opportunity.

6:49But it's one thing kind of being thrown in there. It's another thing then having the gumption to put yourself about a bit and make yourself involved. And I think he showed some really intelligent moments, like some great runs. I thought he was actually a real pain for their back line. You know, he stepped up, he really pressed, he got his foot in, particularly in the second half. He had a little period where I really felt like he grew into the game. You know, balls were being played into him. He was able to knock it off. He was basically doing everything you would want Jokeres or Mourinho to do, I have to say.

7:22And I mean, he came so close to capping it all off with a goal. I mean, you know, from my seat in the north upper, I was watching him and I think he was limping in the moments before the goal. And there was a back and forth with Arteta who was basically sort of telling him to go down, you know, go down if you're injured because we don't want to get caught here. Sure. And then Timber picks up the ball, starts surging forward. And you can see he just sort of goes, oh, one last chance. Great run. Yeah. Great run. I mean, the effort may be a little bit tame, but still was out quickly. And then you could see when Saka put the ball in, he was just huffing and puffing down by the hoardings.

7:59He didn't even go and join the celebrations because he had nothing left. And I think if you're going to play 77 minutes of a debut for Arsenal, have nothing left at the end of it. Good on him. Really, really proud moment for his family. Yeah, absolutely. Brilliant. A brilliant moment and occasion for him. And also Max Dowman, who we'll come to in a second as we sort of go through this. Now, you missed the first few minutes of this game. due to a ticketing issue? 19 years I've been going to the stadium. I don't think I've ever missed the start. And then I think basically it came down to a tech issue, which I guess at the moment we know all about on our side.

8:37Yeah, I transferred a ticket from within my own network to my own phone. So I had two tickets on my phone. And what we found out on the night was that anybody with two tickets on their phone, the second ticket wouldn't update to the Brighton game. It kept updating to the Spurs game, which isn't obviously till the end of November. Sure. So then the issue was I couldn't get any reception to then actually like download the new one. So I had to go to the box office where they explained that there was quite a few people who were having the same issue. And I was also party to a very sad situation where a guy had obviously bought a fake ticket and was being told by the box office that I'm afraid he wasn't going to be able to get in.

9:15And I just want that to serve as a warning to anybody listening. Don't buy from third-party sellers. You have to get it through the club or trusted people. Anyway, that was all a bit sad. But yeah, I missed the first few minutes. And from what I understand, it was an action-packed couple of minutes for Brighton. I mean, I think it's completely understandable that an Arsenal team with 10 changes, many of whom haven't played together before, many of whom, well, what, one, two, three, haven't started a game before? for Arsenal. Piero and Capier starting his first game at the back alongside Christian Mosquera.

9:55The youngsters that we mentioned, Harman and Ous and Daumann, first starts for them. A completely different midfield, Christian Norgard. Was that his first start? I think it was as well, wasn't it? He played in the last round, I think. Did he? Okay. I thought he was injured. Anyway, it doesn't matter. It's not the usual midfield and there was certainly a disjointedness to Arsenal in the first few minutes that I think, you know, you have to acknowledge that Brighton really could have done better with. There was a chance that Kepa made a good save, but I think if we were flipping that around to an Arsenal chance, what we'd say is, yeah, it's a decent save from the keeper, but the finish is not great from the forward.

10:38And then there was an Arsenal corner where we got completely caught on the break. They just got it forward. I think it was two on three they had, but they got their man through and he put it just wide. There were a couple of saves from Kepa, a couple of long-range efforts from Brighton. It wasn't that they were getting lots of chances inside the box, but certainly those first four or five minutes where they had those chances, I think if Brighton have any regrets about last night, it will be those because that would have put a very different complexion on the game. Yeah, I mean, I think Herzl afterwards was very, very frustrated that they hadn't built up some form of advantage there.

11:18Yeah, we looked a little ragged. Like there was obviously an eagerness to make things happen, but we got caught, I think Norgard at one point got caught with a pass that kind of ended up with a turnover and suddenly we were running back towards goal. Yeah, from the corner situation, I mean, I have to say, I thought Rutter's run, I mean, he surged forward basically the entire pitch before making a pretty decent pass. And then there's that just sort of split second moment in the stadium where everything goes silent and you're just waiting for the brighton fans to erupt and he slipped and everyone just went away and relaxed but you know it was it was funny because it was such um it was such a contrast to the palace game you know which was like a chess game and this was like basketball in the opening um the opening 10-15 minutes and there was a bit of me which at least sort of sat down i was kind of like okay let's start taking this all in i was like oh oh, this is actually, at least it's quite enjoyable to watch.

12:12I mean, there was something going on on the pitch, even though we looked a little bit sort of off, you could kind of feel like this might be, you know, this might be a game worth watching. And yeah, I mean, it was, there were early warnings. We heeded them, which was certainly necessary, tightened up a little bit. Everyone kind of got back into their shape. And then I thought we were quite disciplined, if not particularly expansive with the football. Yeah, I think it took a while to settle down, which is normal. You get away with those early moments and then you try and consolidate a bit. And Brighton did have more shots in the first half.

12:48I think they had 10 shots to Arsenal's three. We didn't really look like scoring in that first half. I think some players who came to the four in the second period maybe struggled a little bit to impose themselves in the game and we'll come back to them. But I did want to touch maybe on the bright spot of the first half from an Arsenal perspective, which I think was Max Downman down the right-hand side and his willingness to run at defenders and draw fouls or skip into the box. There was a moment where he actually did run into the box and I was looking at it going, go outside, go outside on your right foot and you've got him here.

13:29And he went inside because of his left foot. You know, things like that, which I think are quite interesting because, you know, when they sit down with him and when they show him those moments, when they're sort of coaching him, you know, those in-game instincts, if you like, that's an example of something he can really take from last night when he draws defenders all the way over to one side. Trust your right foot. Maybe that's something he's got to work on a little bit as well, like Bakayo Saka can go both ways, you know. But for me, he was probably the bright spark in the first half for Marcel, just because of that willingness.

14:02And again, you're looking at him going, this child is 15 years of age and playing against grown men, you know, and he's willing to take the hits and take the kicks and take the bashes and all that kind of stuff on top of all that talent that we can see with the ball at his feet. Yeah. I mean, I guess he's probably been kicked his entire life, hasn't he? I mean, the way he plays with that ball, just such close control and his ability to kind of sort of weave and duck and dive and spin on a sixpence. Like nobody quite knows. And, you know, it must be very hard as a defender what he's going to do when he gets the ball because he really has the flexibility in his game to go anywhere.

14:46But the crowd loves him. You know, there's that sort of give it to Max, give it to Max. Everybody just wants to see him on the ball, see what he can do. And yeah, certainly, you know, there was one moment I think he took the ball out of the air and then just sort of surged forward. And I just thought, wow, I mean, you just can't not be impressed by him. And he's, yeah, it's interesting watching him playing out on the right, I think, because you almost feel like he could play in the middle. And if he was in the middle, he would be on the ball even more and he would make more things happen. And I think being out on the right, at times the game, as happens in games, you can play on the flanks.

15:27And if the ball moves around, circulated a lot, moves to the other wing, you can kind of feel out of it a little bit. And that happened a bit in the second half, I would say, certainly later on. But he really is a special player. I think it'll be really interesting to see the types of partnerships and who he builds partnerships with. at the moment, he's just going to be so in and out of the team and he might have Timber behind him. He might have White behind him. He might have Jokeres in front of him. You know, it's trying to, it's difficult, I guess, to kind of see where those partnerships are going to build for him in this season unless he gets a real run of games.

16:07But yeah, he's just, I was also quite interested by his defensive stuff. I thought he, I thought he actually gets about a bit, you know, I know Arteta was on the sideline telling him where to go at times, but he can put his foot in. You know, he's not slight. I mean, he can hold his own in those physical battles and he's quite adept at reading where a player might go to just, you know, it doesn't have to be a crunching tackle. No, that's true. I mean, that was something that I took note of last night because I think we know what he can do on the ball. We know what he can do in the attacking third and the way that he likes to sort of tease defenders when he's in possession.

16:45But what I thought was interesting last night was the willingness to chase back, the speed at which he chased back a couple of times as well. We know that's something Arteta demands of his players, his wingers, whether you're Bacayo Saka or whether you're Max Downman or Gabriel Martinelli, whoever, you know, you've got to do what he wants you to do from a defensive point of view as well. So I thought that was really interesting because at 15, I'm not saying you have an excuse, but, you know, there might be a tendency to sort of say, well, look, I'm just going to concentrate on doing what I want to do with the ball.

17:14But there was a real discipline to what he did there. And I have to say, I thought Arteta was really interesting on him during the week before the game and after the game when they're talking about, you know, the very obvious challenge of how do you integrate a 15-year-old into, you know, a first team like this first team at Arsenal where you can see the potential. You're trying to make a pathway, but at the same time, you have to recognize that he's 15. You have to recognize there are physical limitations to any kid at 15 years of age. You're going to be very different physically from the way you are at 18, 20, 22, as you sort of mature and fill out the challenge he has from going from level to level.

17:59So, you know, he played for the first team last night. He might play for the under-19s next time, or he might play for the 21s or, you know, all of those things. mean there's a lot for Arsenal to manage, but a lot for Max Downman to manage as well. And I'm sure, listen, there's people looking after him and all of that, but I don't think we should be blind to the fact that in the sort of romance of seeing this 15-year-old before our eyes break into the first team at a younger age than anybody else has ever done at Arsenal, that there aren't things for him to contend with and there are going to be ups and downs and this development is not going to be sort of one way.

18:40It will plateau and then it'll go again. You know, all of those things are things that Arsenal have to deal with and things that Max Damon has to deal with as well. And like, you know, I've said this before, but put yourself in that position when you were 15. How do you deal with it, you know? I mean, I have no idea how he deals with it. Like, when is he actually going to school or doing his schoolwork? I don't understand how you could juggle all that. I mean, you know, last night he'll have played in front of 60 ,000 people. He's, you know, probably due at school at some point. Like, when does it happen?

19:20Where's your homework? Where's your homework, Max? I was busy last night. Sorry. I mean, I'm not expecting the kid to come out of, you know, his GCSEs with top grades when he undertakes those. Well, he'll have to be 16 by that point. So I guess, yeah, in the summer. But, yeah, it's a lot. And I think Arteta probably knows, given that he's got three young boys at home, that he has to be entirely aware of that. But then at the same time, there has been no hiding his enthusiasm for Dalman. I mean, he started talking about him last season without anybody prompting him. And I think, you know, you and I were both a little sort of sceptical at the idea that Downwind would be fully integrated into the first team, probably as late as, you know, just before pre-season started.

20:12You know, I think we both thought he might be the type of kid who'd see some action in the Carabao Cup, but this idea that he would be, you know, posing in the first team photo as a fully fledged member of the squad is, yeah, I mean, it's bizarre, really. Coming on at Anfield, for goodness sake. Coming on at Anfield, yeah. I mean, so, I mean, fair play to him. I mean, it does sound like personality-wise he is taking it in his stride. I mean, Arteta referenced exactly that in the post-game press conference, asked about whether or not, you know, how did Damund take the news that he was starting and he just said a tiny smile, you know.

20:51he's just going with the flow so yeah it's really really interesting I mean he's I would love him to have the moment where he can you know score a goal I think that you know and then that will be a million new records that he sets across god knows how many different leagues and competitions and all the rest of it and I think it might actually take a little bit of pressure off because I did sense yesterday just as he noticed when the board was going up or was about to go up and he was going to be pulled he drifted off the right went into the middle looking for the ball it was kind of like i need i need the ball i need to make something happen with this one last um you know this one last opportunity as it was i don't think really he got he got on the ball in that situation but um yeah love the enthusiasm love that the crowd loves him massive future ahead yeah gonna be really interesting to see how he's used over the next week or so, right?

21:46I mean, you know, we are short in his position. And while Bakaya Saka is Bakaya Saka, is Saka going to play 390 minutes next week? I hope not. But I, you know, I don't know. Well, I hope he doesn't have to. I hope, you know, if we're in a situation and I'm taking nothing for granted because, you know, Burnley away will be difficult, Slavia Prague away, and then we've got Sunderland away, you know, and they're going so well in the Premier League. But, you know, maybe if you're in a position where you can take 20 minutes off Bakaio Saka in, you know, two of those games, then that's where maybe Max Diamond gets his run in the team, you know.

22:26So I guess it depends as well on how Gabriel Martinelli is. We haven't heard, but it didn't look great for him when he went off against Palace, seemed to be feeling something in his groin. So we'll wait and see what happens. But, you know, maybe that's where Diamond's minutes come from. If we're in a good position at Turf Moor on Saturday, Bakao Saka doesn't need to play the final 15, 20 minutes of that game, you know? Yeah, it's a big if, isn't it? I'm expecting us to have to really grind the next few games because I think with the squad now a bit more stretched and three away games on the bounce, it is going to be difficult.

23:00But yeah, in an ideal world, fantastic. Yeah, get him on. Let's talk about second half then. And actually what I thought was good for Mikel Arteta was like, you look at the bench and the bench is kind of absurd with star quality and experience. But even if the first half didn't go quite as well as he would have liked, he stuck with the players who he picked from the start. And I thought that was a nice show of faith. And I thought that show of faith was rewarded. I mentioned a couple of players who I thought maybe struggled a little bit in the first half, Miles Lewis-Galley and Ethan Warneri. Miles lost a couple of physical battles that you wouldn't normally expect him to lose.

23:42And I think Ethan, you know, was trying, but not really having an impact in the final third, not really finding the combinations that he needed to get himself into the positions where we know he can really have an impact with that left foot of his. But I thought both of them in the second half were excellent. And I thought that was important for them as well, given the way the season has gone so far, the minutes that they've had and the minutes that they haven't had, which is more of a talking point, perhaps, you know. So I thought it was really important for both of them. The move and the football in the build-up to the opening goal was really, really nice.

24:20It was very patient build-up. Brighton sat with every man behind the ball, basically, in their final third, more or less. So this was a very, very deep block. And one of the ways that Arsenal have cracked deep blocks this season is with set pieces. But this was the fabled open play goal. Should back heels be allowed? They make defenders look ridiculous. But, you know, it was lovely possession. there's a very very smart flick from from Mikel Moreno who who I think you know we probably won't talk too much about him but I have to say I think on a night like last night his experience and I think his technical quality which is a little bit underrated at times because he is a bit sort of tall a little bit you know gangly a little bit at times in possession but I think some of the the technical quality he has doesn't get appreciated there was a flick actually in the first half wasn't there which almost came for Harriman Anous he could have scored there it was a nice flick from Marino this was a backheel perfectly into the path of of Myles Lewis Skelly pulls it back Ethan Winery pulls the trigger and it's 1-0 to Arsenal yeah I mean just on Marino I thought he really carried himself like a senior player last night and obviously he was given the captain's armband for the occasion which is pretty massive as well so the celebration with after the goal is like uh he's got lewis skelly on one side one area on the other and he's like the proud dad isn't he or the proud uncle in the middle or the big brother if you want to call it that you know look at what my boys did look at what they did yeah i mean you know i think there were plenty of people in the uh in the crowd who felt similarly i mean i was kind of adding up the ages of three of the teenagers and thinking i'm not that much older than them combined don't get me started on that but no yeah i have to i mean it was the one singular moment of quality in the entire game wasn't it where you know that that move i think ese was involved as well in the build-up um it's just decisive and i mean that's that finish is exactly what when erie brings to the the team right i mean it's something i don't think anybody else maybe has in their locker i know ese is a bit of a shot monster but when erie as a carryover from our squad last season is only is one of the only players i think when he receives the ball on the edge of the box his first instinct is always can i test the goalkeeper can i get a shot off yeah and um you know i think he had a couple that were blocked at pretty close quarters before this one or maybe i can't remember the exact order actually but might have been afterwards but he was um you know it was a finish we haven't really seen that much from him because obviously he was further across on the left rather than, you know, coming in off the right as we saw last year.

27:05But it was decisive. It was just out of the reach of Jason Steele. And yeah, he enjoyed that. I mean, he immediately pointed to Mars Lewis-Skelly. And yeah, I think it's important. It was the first goal for him of the season, right? You know, gets him in the groove again. I know he'd scored for the England under-21s. but yeah he's probably not played nearly as much as he would have wanted this season I suspect and I think at the beginning of the season prior to Eze's move he was probably thinking I've got real opportunity here to kick on and instead after the signing of the new contract it's been a bit of a kind of plateauing out period but you know we are looking around the squad and we are seeing that things are stretched you know Eze's covering for Odegaard and if Eze picks up any kind of knock.

27:53Again, I don't think he's going to be able to play three consecutive 90 minutes in the next three games. So I expect Wernherry to get more game time and a goal for his confidence will be great. And yeah, we go from there. He was in the first half a bit muted. I think a bit too safe. I think there's sometimes he kind of gets the ball and he's happy to recycle possession, but for it not necessarily to be adding to any level of danger that the side is producing and i think some of that's down to just sort of getting his eye in a little bit but um yeah yeah i wonder as well you know what it's like when you're the previous wonder kid if you like and you've made your breakthrough and you've signed your contract and you're now you know you're the ripe old age of 18 let's not forget you know and then you have somebody like Max Damman outside you and I'm not saying that uh you know the two are at odds or anything like that but I do wonder what that dynamic is like for when Aerie to sort of realize okay I was the kid in the spotlight here and now I'm a first team squad member and that spotlight is not on me anymore it's on another kid you know does that impact the way that you play does it impact the way you try and play like maybe where you might have taken a risk before you're being a bit safe or a bit cautious because you don't want to lose the ball because you know I don't know do you know what I mean I think there you know there must be something in there yeah I mean it's difficult isn't it I mean he he's 18 and it's it's almost hard for him to you can't really ask an 18 year old to be mentoring a 15 year old when you're playing first team football for the Premier League team, right?

29:37He himself has still got a lot to learn and to be able to kind of deal with the highs and lows of being in and out of a side. But I mean, I think, and I'm sure they're saying this to him, you know, when he's, you know, training and stuff is when you step back from it, you are an 18 year old kid who has got this incredible talent, you know, has even been spoken about making it into the England team for the World Cup. I mean, he is his direction of travel is is the right one he's not he's not struggling he just um yeah i i don't know whether there's a i mean i guess when you're young and you've had to battle your way through everything to make it to the first team it is a dog eat dog world and i see other players come through in your position and it it doesn't make life easy for you but you know if you want to be to the top you just got to deal with that right yeah for sure to be doing all right he seems to be doing he had seven shots last night.

30:31Six of those came in the second half and that will tell you what way he had an impact in that second period as well and just lovely to see Myles and Ethan combine for that first goal. Brighton made some changes to try and shift the dynamic of the game. Mikel Arteta did likewise. He brought on Timber, Saka and Gabriel. Was it all? Yeah, those three came on at the same time. So, I mean, imagine Brighton looking at that going, we're trying to change it and they're bringing on this and it was Timber. You mentioned the run i thought this was just sensational play from from shurian timber it was like it was like he's playing fifa and just held down the r2 button and just kept going and kept going and nobody could get anywhere near him you know the the the run was brilliant the control was brilliant i thought the run from harriman anus yeah was excellent shame he couldn't get the goal that would have been the real romantic thing but pakayo saka like if if ethan and miles are the drizzled veterans of Hale End compared to Max Dam.

31:30And what does that make? What does that make Bakayo Saka? He's fast towards uncle status, isn't he? I mean, he's the new Ian Wright. Yeah. I mean, in comparison, and he's only 24, you know, it's kind of ridiculous, you know. But Saka there to score. They said last night on TV, it's only the second time he scored in the EFL Cup, which is crazy. Yeah, in 75 Arsenal goals now, I think. He looked on it when he came on. He looked like a bloke who wanted to make up for the weekend performance where he clearly wasn't himself. I know he was ill. Yeah, no, the timber run was quite something and reminiscent really of Myles Lewis-Skelley and the way that he rolls inside and just sort of barrels forward and surges forward and people just can't get anywhere near them.

32:17And I think having that on both sides of the defence is, So, I mean, obviously we see Calafuri kind of getting forward in his own way, but having that kind of muscle and the speed to just charge forward like that in tight games where you're, you know, you're faced with a lot of defenders is really important. It just opens things up. I mean, if you're faced with blocks and you can just roll through five, six players and put the team on the back foot, then, yeah, it was really, really impressive. And I think, as you said, like Brighton's hearts must have sunk when they saw that we were just going into lockdown mode among the big boys.

32:55And that was that. And it was funny because obviously the moment Gabriel came on again, we started whipping corners in. The anticipation in the crowd went up. Yeah, I will never not get excited. By a corner. Gabriel jostling at the penalty spot, waiting to watch, you know, his teammates bash everybody out of the way just so he can charge at the ball. It's just so much fun now. I mean, I watched where there was a corner, I think it was from the left-hand side, and actually might have been Mikel Marino who got a header on target. The goalkeeper saved it. Could easily have been another goal for Arsenal.

33:30But that moment where it's sort of, Gabriel is there, as you say, on the penalty spot, and there's a defender just facing him. He doesn't know where the ball is. He's got no idea when the corner is being taken. His focus is entirely on Gabriel. it sort of reminded me a little bit of like what a gladiator must be thinking when the lion is about to come out of a cage in the coliseum you know it's like i'm gonna try my best here but i think i'm fucked yeah i think i'm fucked because he they they try and grapple and he does the shimmy and he moves and then he just runs with such pace towards that either the back post or the near post it's almost impossible to stop him without performing some kind of a rugby tackle on him yeah and then it just becomes all about whether the ball is delivered to the the area that he's going for right because he's not really deviating where he runs each time i mean it is like i'm going to that area you put the ball there these guys will get people out the way and then if i meet it one in seven times or something i'm gonna i'm gonna test the goalkeeper or have a have an effort it on target maybe it'll go in it is it's a real art form and i know that there's been a huge discussion about set pieces and all the rest of it and look you know i sat and watched us get battered by team stoke and whatnot over the years during the wengue era and i was snooty as fuck about it i don't care about saying that um i just i was because it annoyed the shit out of me and now we're the ones annoying the shit out of everybody else so it's fine yeah but i mean And you're annoyed more at our inability to defend those situations than the opposition's strength at it, you know, because it hurts you because you're going, actually, they're good at that.

35:16And we're a bit weak. We're a bit feeble defensively. You know, that's sort of where I was with it. But I do think, you know, it is a fascinating thing that the sort of, you know, the snobbiness, if you like, that you mention is not really there anymore. Anyway, generally speaking, I know we've had a lot of like bullshit fucking stuff about set pieces and like, oh, here's the table. If set pieces didn't exist, it's like, well, you might as well show us a table if players didn't exist. You know, they're part of the game. It's just that here's the table if Gabriel, you know, wasn't born. Well, actually, that does happen at the beginning of the season, doesn't it?

35:56And now it's AFC Bournemouth who top Arsenal, even though that's a load of bollocks as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. But the way teams are actually saying, you know what, if they're good at this, then we have to be good at it. Because, you know, you can't just say, well, they're taking good corners and that's not really the way the game is played. not the Queensbury rules old chap. You know, you can't do that these days because every football club, you know, the managers, the analysts, the coaches, the set piece coaches, the specialist coaches, everybody is looking for the thing that can give them the marginal gains that can help them win football matches or score goals.

36:39And if you're not on top of that, then you're just going to get found out. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm really curious about how they train it because obviously you've got a squad of players you're going to have to go you know 11 v 11 or what have you set up an environment where you've got defenders and stuff and we're so good at defending them but obviously it's our defenders who are being used as the attackers so you're having to use your secondary guys to go up against gabriel so but we've got really great defenders so you know they must be raising the level in in training by having a great defense and having a great attack when it comes to corners, you're sort of constantly testing each other.

37:19I wonder, do they do it to that extent or do they, do they work more on the patterns or the set piece? Like, if you know what the other team is going to, if the other side is going to do in training, it sort of defeats the object, which is. Yeah. Or is it Saliba versus Gabriel on the training ground every day? I mean, what a thought, what a thought. We hit earthquakes in the London Colony region. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But look, you know, Brighton couldn't get back into it. I don't think they really threatened in the final 10, 15 minutes, whenever it was that we scored the second goal. What was it, about 70?

37:5770-something, wasn't it? Mid-70s. 76 minutes. And then there's sort of 15 minutes and five minutes of injury time for Brighton to get something. They brought Danny Welbeck on. he didn't really have any impact what? Crowd enjoyed him Yeah I did enjoy you know afterwards all the the Arsenal players having the chats with Danny Welbeck like Saka Lewis Kelly those guys came over had good chats with Danny Welbeck Yeah he was one of the good guys right? You know He was yeah and I mean I'm sure Arteta was there to greet him as well Yeah they had the the post-game TV coverage for a while and you could see Arteta on the pitch and Welbeck there and I was going, I hope they show whatever interaction there is between the two of them, but they cut away, unfortunately, so we didn't get a chance to see that.

38:49But, you know, just a solid professional end to a cup tie, which, you know, looked like it might have gone one way, but Arsenal, I think on the basis of the second half anyway, you know, deserve to win that game. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think before the game and with the team news out, I looked at it and I thought, I mean, this could really go either way. You know, Brighton were really on it. You know, I wouldn't be surprised if they stole a win. They've got a pretty decent record of the Emirates since they came up. But in the end, I mean, the second half, I felt we were very dominant.

39:28And I think we did everything that we needed to do. A brilliant thing to be able to just turn it on like that, right? You know, Arteta has a few words. they tweak a couple of things everyone steps up their game and as you said earlier it was the guys who were on the pitch from the start who were basically still there to to give us the advantage and just wrapped up by the the big boys coming off the bench so yeah all in all pretty pretty good I mean it just um you are a little bit torn aren't you with this competition just about how far we go into it because we've sort of experienced so often how damaging it can be to to go deep and then lose, not just for confidence, but just for dragging the squad left, right, and centre.

40:10Yeah, but, you know, you… But these guys need minutes, right? Yeah, well, they need minutes. These guys need to play. And Arsenal need trophies. And, you know, I think it's just one of those. You can't throw a game. You can't just say, well, fuck it. We don't care about this competition because it is useful. It's important. And we saw last night, you know, the sort of romantic elements of it, which were the youngsters, but the practical elements as well, where you give a first start to Piero Incapia, who came in and did well. Ben White got minutes under his belt. Mikel Arteta was talking about him and saying that, you know, he's been struggling with injury since the opening day of the season when he got that knock against Manchester United.

40:53Had a little bit of a setback, but got 70 minutes under his belt last night. Norgard Wannery Lewis Skelly you know all the positive aspects that you can take from games like this and listen the draw could have been more difficult you know when I was watching it last night and I thought oh god not Newcastle please or not not Chelsea you know or not Man City I don't know whether you prefer to play one of those in a one one legged thing you know I think at this point as well by the way you know the fact that the semi-finals are two legged with the schedule that we have you know that that really needs thinking about it should be just a one-off game um but i i assume that's down to kind of an existing cycle of tv rights yes i would say so competition is set and that will go almost immediately as soon as this cycle yeah i hope so i hope so there's no need for two-legged semi-finals uh in in this competition you know they've done away with extra time it would have been penalties after 90 minutes last night if it had been uh a draw but But, you know, the draw for the quarterfinal is Crystal Palace at home, which is nice.

42:02You know, again, you take nothing for granted. Palace are a very good team and I think they'll go strong-ish for this one. But there is a scheduling issue as well, isn't there? Because the game is going to take place either Tuesday 16th or Wednesday 17th. Palace play Manchester City on Sunday the 14th. That's a game that's already been scheduled for TV. It's on Sky Sports on the Sunday. And then on the Thursday, they have a Europa Conference League game against the Finnish side. So that's Thursday the 18th. So where does this game fit? I presume it's going to be moved, but to where exactly in the calendar?

42:49I don't know. It's really difficult to see how they figure this one out. I really don't know because Arsenal are basically playing every three days in December, right? I mean, we've got, yeah, it's Brentford, Villa, Club Brugge, Wolves. Yeah, I mean, it's, and then we should have the Carabao Cup game. It's really, really, really difficult. but I'm also of the opinion that how could they have not figured this out? I mean, we know that there are all these European competitions going on. We know domestically. I assume they'll have to move the City game and maybe bring it forward to a kind of, so this is the City Palace game, I mean.

43:36I assume they'll have to bring that forward to a Friday night or a Saturday morning and then squeeze Arsenal in, you know. But does that not depend on what fixtures Man City have the other side of that? I don't know. I mean, this is it. I mean, I think, you know, by now the festive schedule should have been out a long time ago. And they've been delaying the decision on that. I mean, the… Wait and see how the, you know, things play out with this draw. And now they've probably got the worst case scenario. City are away at Real Madrid on Wednesday. So there's no way they can move that game to the Friday.

44:11day, possibly they could move it to the Saturday, but then. Yeah. I mean, it's going to be really, you know, Palace are not going to want to play Saturday, Tuesday, Thursday. No, I don't blame them either. No. I don't blame them. This is, this is the, this is where we've ended up too many games. And it's, you know, in usual circumstances, if the Champions League hadn't been expanded, we'd, I mean, we would have played our last Champions League game by then, right? I can't remember exactly how it played out this year. December, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, definitely the January games don't happen.

44:51But I don't know. I have no solution. I'm sure there's a lot of head scratching going on and a lot of bartering going on between the clubs at this point. I mean, I'm sure City and Palace, if you said to them, we just have to postpone this game, they'd probably take it right now because that's quite a busy period for both teams. When they chuck that into the schedule in the second half of the season, I don't know. But that still means Palace have to play Tuesday, Thursday. Yeah, I mean, you're not going to play a Carabao Cup game on a weekend. No. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm really not sure. It's a bit of a fucking mess.

45:28Anyway, that's not our mess to figure out. it's a mess for the for the rest of the for the rest of the football people to do the other games let me see it's Man City against Brentford Arsenal Crystal Palace Cardiff Chelsea Newcastle Fulham I mean I was kind of hoping that Newcastle and City would draw each other you know something on those lines that didn't quite play out so if they all go to form as you expect it would be a big double header. Palace, by the way, beat Liverpool last night, 3-0 at Anfield. Six defeats in the last seven for Liverpool under Arna Slott. Not a great run for them. We broke them.

46:20We went there, played really defensive football and lost 1-0. And they hit hockey and broke them. That's how it worked. yeah I mean I hadn't realised until after the game that they'd made so many changes last night which is I guess quite a bold move given the circumstances you might have thought he'd be a bit more tempted to try and get any win of any sort just to try and you know turn the page but he's on the brink old Arna they can't afford to lose too many more games in the next few weeks because I think that would put a real, yeah, I think there'll be a lot of very angry Liverpool fans. Yeah, I don't think rotating the starting XI is necessarily the issue for them.

47:05It's the fact that the big boys that you might need if things don't go well weren't on the bench, you know? He was saying the squad isn't as big as people think it is, which I guess is a kind of... Oh, boo-hoo! Oh, I'm sorry. How much did you spend? You spent like... Yeah,£400 million in the summer. £450 million in the summer and your squad isn't big enough. maybe don't buy two fucking strikers then maybe just sort of buy the one striker and sort of fill out your squad with other players elsewhere zero zero sympathy for any complaint about any manager that spent that much money and says oh my squad isn't as big as Man City fuck off yeah my diamond slippers are too tight it's really that isn't it my first world problems are too problemy anyway all good fun and we're all enjoying what's going on at Liverpool at the moment one final thing I just wanted to touch on Andrew because I think it is worth noting a stat from Opta.

48:02Arsenal in October 2025 are the first English top flight team in history to play six games in a month and win them all without conceding a single goal. I mean, it is quite a specific stat, you know. There's probably teams that have played six games in a month and not conceded but haven't won way we have if that if that Liverpool game joking aside broke them did that Gabrielle Martinelli goal against Manchester City inject this Arsenal team with something because I think it's eight wins in a row now in all competitions since that game yeah I mean whether it was that I mean I for me the the massive turning point in the season so far is that is the Gabrielle header to make it 2-1 at Newcastle.

48:55Because I think at that moment, the team just went, ah, we could do anything now. We can, you know, we've turned that around in really difficult circumstances. And yeah, I mean, it's an incredible run. I think I'm almost certain that November is statistically our worst month, usually, as a team over the course of the Premier League history. Touching wood here. I don't know for sure, but I'm almost certain it's kind of one of the worst months. So we, yeah, this next week for me is absolutely, absolutely massive. They just have to stay focused. You know, I'm less concerned about Slavia Prague because I think you can afford a draw if you still want to finish in the top eight in the Champions League.

49:45But getting past Burnley and then that Sunderland game looks absolutely huge because with Liverpool playing Man City that same day or at least the next day, there's a real opportunity to turn the screw there. And then you've got international break and then back in for the North London derby. Yeah, it's big. It's exciting. I feel like there's a real, there's a buzz around the club at the moment. And I know that some of the stuff is some snootiness about the set pieces and there's a little bit of criticism about not scoring enough from open play and all the rest of it. But there is also a lot of people praising what Arsenal are doing.

50:24And I think Arsenal fans are taking that on board. And I think people are starting to believe. And I think, you know, it was interesting seeing Saka saying he feels the same way at the moment. Long may it continue. It feels like there's sort of... Some momentum. Momentum is exactly the word I was going to use. really underlying momentum and a bit sort of, I don't want to get ahead of myself or anything like that, but sort of juggernaut-y that once we get going, we could be very, very difficult to stop and fingers crossed. That is the case for the week ahead. Right. We better leave it there. Andrew, thank you very much indeed.

51:01My pleasure. Lovely to chat.

51:06Okay, with me now to talk about the reissue of his book, All About Highbury, is a man I'm sure many of you know. He's been on the podcast a few times before. John Sperling, welcome back. Hello, Andrew. Thanks for having me on. My pleasure. Before we get into the stuff about the book, I guess I have to ask you how you're enjoying the season so far. It seems to be going quite well. You know, maybe some parallels with previous eras as well in certain aspects of the way that Arsenal play. It's going phenomenally well. Actually, last night was the first home game we've not been to of the season. I think we've done phenomenally well.

51:43I mean, what I'm liking about Arsenal is the depth of the squad, which we've not had that kind of depth for years and years and years. I think back to 2004 when we had Henri Bergkamp and waiting in the wings, you had Canu and Viltor. You know, that sort of level of depth which we've now got. And I think, you know, you saw that last night with them coming on. What I'm liking is just the relentlessness, the Arsenal-ness of them in terms of the formidable defending, the clean sheets, and the physical nature of Arsenal. They are formidable opponents, which, you know, I was struck by what Graham Sooner said a few years ago about the fact that Arsenal were an ideal set of sons-in-law.

52:27if you were a father to marry your daughter, and that they were, you know, squeaky clean in that way. Good kind of ball players, good creative players, but you need more to win the league. And I think that we are absolutely playing to our strengths with the set pieces. I absolutely love it. And it's a throwback for me to what successful Arsenal teams are like. You know, you build it from defence. If you keep clean sheets, as George Graham would say, at least you don't lose the game. and then if you are first to the second ball, you've got every chance of winning. I think Arsenal will play with the handbrake off a little bit more as the season moves on.

53:07I mean, it's easy to forget. We've still got two or three attackers out. I mean, we've got to fit Jokeres, but Jesus, I think, has still got a role to play. He's still only 28. And Havertz, I think, the plan was that he would be a support for Jokeres, which hasn't happened because of Havertz's injury. So I think there's a lot more to come from this team as we go through. And I'm confident, not overconfident, but I'm confident. Okay, that's a good place to be. You know, it's a hard thing to come by confidence. But, you know, so far so good. It really is. It really is. And it's great to watch. And it's great to see as well the academy elements of the team coming through as well, because that's sort of, you know, not a throwback, but it is part of the history and part of the DNA of Arsenal as we're going to talk about Highbury, you know, a ground that saw so many Helland Academy graduates and, you know, young players who came through the system.

54:04It is lovely, even if, you know, maybe the pathway last night was because we don't have players like Havertz and Jesus and Madweke and Martinelli, you know, they're not there. But in their absence, that's, you know, the way football hands opportunities to young players like Max Damm and like Andre Harriman and Ous. That's right. You just keep looking to the future, don't you? And there's nothing better than seeing young players from the academy come through. And as you're saying, you know, it's a throwback to the 71 team, which had so many of that, 89. It's hopefully history repeating itself and we'll see what happens.

54:38Definitely. All right. Well, look, we're here to talk about your book about Highbury, the story of Arsenal in N5. It was released almost 20 years ago and it's almost 20 years ago that Arsenal moved from Highbury to the new stadium. Why the reissue? Is it just because there's demand for the book and obviously it's sort of maybe coinciding with that anniversary? Yeah, I mean, I think the other, the paperback, because the original paperback is basically sold out now. So I suggested to Orion perhaps looking at it again. And it seemed quite timely because, well, a number of things really i mean i think for start arsenal fans are quite are quite lucky in the sense that obviously the east west stands at hybride are still there and i know a lot for a lot of fans it's still part of not every match day necessarily but quite a few match days you see a lot of fans my age or older still walking around what was hybride the eastern west fans it's it's a it's a reminder of our of our past um obviously we'll remember that when we left highbury in in 2006 the idea was that we were going to move to the emirates it was it was pretty pretty kind of futuristic for the time only millwall were they were the only other london club that have left their home to go to go elsewhere and of course what what keith edelman the director at the time said is that um you know it would enable arsenal to compete at the at the very highest level now as we know you know there have been books podcasts articles dozens of them on that topic about why that didn't happen you know was it was it arsene wenger perhaps losing his way was it abramovich coming in at chelsea um you know what what was it it was probably a combination of those things but Obviously, Arsenal, for the last 20 years, have not won the league.

56:33They've not won the Champions League either. And perhaps it's only now we're finally seeing them kind of throw off the shackles of what was left. Because Arsenal, rather than being able to spend money on players for a long time, had to spend money on bricks and mortar on repaying loans. I think we're finally moving away from that difficult time now. Yeah, I mean, I do think it is a combination of all of those things. You know, I don't think anybody could have envisaged the rise of the oligarchs and the billionaires and their influence over the game and the ownership of football clubs by nation states and the endless or limitless pockets.

57:15I've got my analogies all mixed up, but you know exactly what I'm talking about here. What I did want to ask you, though, was, and this is something that I've seen come up a bit in the last couple of months, because there's talk about Arsenal revamping the stadium. There's talk about modernizing what is, generally speaking, a modern stadium, but sort of going again, adding more seats, adding more facilities, etc., etc. And that might mean Arsenal playing at Wembley for a season or two. And I think I'm curious, you know, as somebody who was, you know, who grew up with Arsenal at Highbury, and I think we have to acknowledge as well, we have to remember that there's generations now who never knew Arsenal playing at Highbury.

57:59Like the Emirates is the only stadium they've known. And Highbury is obviously a fundamental part of the history, but it's not part of their own personal journey with Arsenal. But I wanted to ask you, you know, author of this book and somebody who grew up watching Arsenal at Highbury, at the time when this stadium project was being put in place, there was talk about going to Wembley. That was David Dean's preferred option was for Arsenal to move to Wembley. There was talk of Arsenal building a stadium around King's Cross before the entire King's Cross area got redeveloped. There was even talk, if I remember, I could be wrong, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but talk about moving further out somewhere towards Hertfordshire, Milton Keynes kind of way.

58:41The home counties option. Exactly, exactly. So all these options were explored before Arsenal found the land at Ashburton Grove to build the new stadium. And I wonder what you think about now with hindsight. How important was it, not for Arsenal as a football club per se, but for the local community itself, for Arsenal to remain basically a stone's throw from Highbury? Well, I think ideally you'd always want to stay in your original home and revamp it. I think that Liverpool have done quite well to revamp their stadium but remain at Anfield. Because I think however amazing your new stadium is, as Everton are finding now, you know, it's, yeah, it can look the part.

59:25But you still lose some of your heart and soul if you leave your original, you know, your original ground. But I think Arsenal have done the next best thing by moving not very far away so that the sort of matchday rituals remain the same for most Arsenal fans who've been going for any length of time. As you say, a number of them now never went to Highbury. but it means that people go to the same pubs, the same restaurants, even the same stations. You know, it's part of the match day experience. So I think that Arsenal, you know, did in that sense, did well to remain in M5. I think, though, with regards to the stadium expansion, obviously nothing's confirmed yet.

1:00:12When I originally heard it, I'll be honest with you, I thought, oh, God, not this again. because just as we had in the midst of the Invincibles doing what they did, it's almost like we were unable to build and keep that momentum going because they had to be mindful of selling players off to pay for the stadium move. And I think that it derailed us. And I don't want that to happen again, just as it seems. We're within touching distance of something amazing. but of course it depends on the finance um how the how is how is the stadium expansion if it happens going to be financed um i think it also depends on will it enable you know um more silver members to go or what percentage of the new seating will be corporate you know that's the thing i i can't believe if you're going to expand it by 20 000 that a high percentage of that of those seats won't be corporate.

1:01:11And so does that mean it's actually better for the massive number? Because I'm a silver member where you have to go through the ballot and there's only, you know, there's, you know, the better Arsenal play, the less chance there is of you winning. So I'd like to know what the, you know, the ratios will be when it comes to that. But I mean, if you look at the Emirates, I mean, it's by some, by standards as other modern stadia, you know, it does some somehow feel dated in some ways. It's just a flat bowl, isn't it? Yeah. And I think other, you know, stadium builders have learned that perhaps clustering home fans in one bank is better than having them all on the kind of flat.

1:01:53It dissipates. It kind of spreads the support out, whereas I think you need it to be clustered. Because for years, the Emirates have struggled with the atmosphere, hasn't it, if we're being honest? I think it does go hand in hand with the quality of the team, I think. But yeah, there is that. I mean, let's go back to Highbury and let's talk a bit about some of the aspects of the book. And I think, you know, there's an amazing history from start to finish and the move to Highbury in the first place. I really enjoyed this bit at the very start of the book where there's a journalist in the Islington Gazette talking about Arsenal moving to Highbury.

1:02:29He said, it will be a sad day for the district if these interlopers set up stall around here. A respectable, decent neighborhood will be transformed into a rabble-infested den of noise, and I fear drinking. I believe it is time that the people of Highbury rose up and gave notice of their intentions to fight this proposed move. Yeah. I mean, clearly because it happened so many years ago, you don't think about the objections that would have taken place or the objections that people had to Arsenal building this, what turned out to be an incredible stadium. So much so that aspects of it, as you said, the East and West stand were listed and could not be demolished.

1:03:17Therefore, that's why Arsenal had to move. They couldn't expand the stadium anymore. But, you know, back in those days, in 1913, people weren't necessarily happy about Arsenal. No, that's right. I mean, it not only put some local residents their nose out of joint, because obviously what they were worried about is not just the litter, but the gambling, the drinking, as you say, the louts that were coming into the district because of it. All the fun stuff. So, yeah, it also massively put Tottenham's noses out of joint, which we all enjoy very much singing about. And also Clapton Orient, as they were called back then, there was a major fear that Arsenal would drain their support away, which, you know, they're not entirely wrong in thinking that.

1:04:01But actually, very quickly, locals came to support Arsenal. And actually, the majority were very pleased to have, you know, a club of that stature on their doorstep. I mean, it's not until the 1920s, of course, when Herbert Chapman arrived kind of in tandem with Charlie Buchan, perhaps Arsenal's first true superstar, that Arsenal became the powerhouse that they now are. But yeah, those fears were very real at the time for local residents, definitely. Yeah, I mean, there is so much history in the ground And so much, you know, if we sort of bring it back around to today, it feels to me like part of what the Emirates Stadium is missing is that success, you know, is this sort of communal moment when you either win the title at your own ground, as we did, or first day of the season, everybody is there to celebrate the champions and sing about that.

1:04:59You know, that feels to me like something that the Emirates is missing and hopefully won't be missing for too much longer if this season goes as well as we hope it might. But, you know, obviously over the course of the life of a stadium or an era in a particular stadium, you have these incredible highs and moments which define, you know, the place and also the place that it has in people's hearts, I think, if that's the right way of putting it. But between all that, there's a lot of nothing, you know, not nothing, but, you know, it's the sort of day-to-day stuff. And there's some amazing stories in this book, you know, about, you know, from all the eras, basically all the way from the start through to the finish.

1:05:44Are there any in particular which, you know, you think are, if not completely, which completely define Highbury, I should say, but ones which you think maybe people aren't as aware of as sort of the big ones, like winning the title against Everton that day, etc.? Yeah, I mean, I was dead lucky because I started writing the book in the early 90s. So I was able to speak to guys like Ted Drake and George Mayle, legends from the 30s team who are now obviously long gone. And I was able to speak to fans from that era as well. And as you said at the start, you know, that we were lucky at Highbury, we won the league in front of our own supporters in 1953, when they beat Burnley to win the title, but I think it was 0.99 of a goal, when it is a goal average.

1:06:31Obviously, more recently, we won the league against Everton at Highbury in 1998 and the Fairs Cup in 1970, which many say was the best night ever at Highbury. I was only a month old then, so I don't know that. So I was able to speak to people who played in those games, obviously. But I think what struck me is that when I spoke to the fans and players from the 30s, I think if I could have a teleport or a time machine, I would go back and go and sample a game in the 30s. The atmosphere, the fact that Arsenal on hybrid was the place to be with these amazing Art Deco stands and this team under Chapman and then George Allison, which won multiple trophies.

1:07:14Just talking about the mood and the aura surrounding Arsenal at that time was absolutely fantastic. And as you said, there's a lot of other stuff in there. I spoke to players who were kind of like cult heroes at Arsenal, like Vladimir Petrovic, not necessarily, you know, like Charlie Nicholas, the most successful, but nonetheless fans identified with them because of, you know, the aura that surrounded them because of their approach to the game. So there's a lot of that that goes on in there as well. Yeah, I mean, the Petrovic chapter is really good because maybe Arsenal down the years, previous to Arsene Wenger anyway, were not necessarily renowned for playing the best football around.

1:08:00But Petrovic is a very technical player when he came in, even if it didn't work out for him. He talked about some letters that he got, and one of the letters said, maybe one day we'll watch an Arsenal team where skillful players flourish and where we accept we can learn things from foreign players. Maybe one day Arsenal fans will enjoy watching a skillful team rather than a bunch of runners and kickers. Yeah, exactly. I mean, people who went to Highbury, they experienced it all, you know, from the runners and kickers to those beautiful teams that Arsene Wenger created. That's right. Petrovic said to me that when he went, I think he played an early game against Swansea and a defender that Petrovic couldn't remember his name literally went straight through him and said, the classic, welcome to English football.

1:08:45And, you know, obviously Petrovic had no protection from referees that he might have now. So there is that. But I mean, there's also, I think I dip into the less seemly side of it all. I mean, you know, some players like John Samuels, for instance, from the 1970 team, left because he, you know, fell out with a section of the crowd who were barracking me and everything else. And it sapped his confidence. So I like to think that I've shown every side of, you know, of what goes on there. I also talk a little bit in there as well, obviously, about our ongoing relationship with Tottenham. down the years.

1:09:23There's a lot of, as you might expect, North London derby action in there as well, that coming up in a couple of weeks as well. So I hope that it dips into every aspect of it, finishing in the 2006 season with the last game and, you know, with the semi-final of the Champions League against Villarreal in 2006 as well. I mean, there's a line in there in the book about how Arsenal's success was the end of Highbury in a way. And that's, you know, that's what happened with the Wenger era and the need to sort of accept that football was going in a different direction and to modernize. And Highbury was a victim of that, I guess you might say.

1:10:10The fact that it's still there is still something. But, you know, just a final question on this. And I often think about it and regardless of affiliation or whatever else it might be, when pundits on TV used to talk about Highbury, they always talked about it. Whether it was a former manager, whether it was a Liverpool player, Man United player, you know, they all talked about Highbury with a huge amount of, if not affection, respect. Yes. And I do want to, you know, Arsenal as a club with class, et cetera, et cetera. We don't need to get into the nuts and bolts of that. We don't need to debate that because, you know, you can go either way on it.

1:10:51But I do wonder if, do you think Highbury was like the cornerstone of that because of the Art Deco stands, because of the commissioner, because of the marble halls, all of those kinds of things sort of played into that perception of Arsenal as a football player? club, which sort of existed, you know, above and beyond the day-to-day, whether as players, managers, you know, we've had some scandals in our time as a football club, right? As every football club does. But Highbury as the sort of the thing that was always present was like the foundation of that perception of class. Yes, I think it was.

1:11:33I think it kind of, it does, it represents everything that Arsenal would like to think that it stands for. As you say, there have been scandals, but I think it's solid. I think about Highbury, it was small enough, you almost feel you could hug it. A bit like probably Everton fans think about Goodison, West Ham fans about Upton Park. And you can't do that with New Stadium. The players come in with their headphones on and they go straight in. At Highbury, they would come into the main entrance where you could see them, you could be out on the street greeting them. It kind of shows that football has become a little bit more removed.

1:12:09It's a bit more distant. But as you said earlier, the thing is that we look back to Highbury, I think, a lot, a lot, because we had success there. We did win the title. We won cups in front of our own fans there. We've not yet had that at the Emirates. We've had the Declan Rice free kicks against Real Madrid. We've had Arshavin's winner against Barca back in the mid-noughties. but we've not yet as you say paraded a trophy like the league title in front of fans at the emirates and i think that once we do that which i hope will be very soon i think then we'll feel more oh yeah emirates is home now because i think as you say once you have success in a ground fans stop kind of being so introverted and sort of stop the shoe gazing perhaps a little bit and think right this is this works for us yeah um but i do think the expansion of the emirates will happen as well um because i i think that on as you can see when the tickets are in demand you know it's very hard to get to get um seats there if you're if you're not a season ticket holder yeah but the other thing is of course that if arsenal ever do level out or drop off like games end of last season then there are clearly empty seats so it's a fine line isn't it it is can we keep this going are we always going to build, build, build because football doesn't work like that it's just peaks and troughs aren't there that's what I think is quite fascinating about the potential expansion is that you know if you're going to do that and if you're the owners and you're saying okay we're going to plough hundreds of millions into doing this because I don't think it will cost any less, it's going to cost hundreds of millions, it's going to cost us home advantage for two years the reason you're doing it is because obviously you want all those seats to be full but the only way you have that seat or those seats full is if you have a competitive team so there has to be at the very top level and understanding that in order for this expansion to make sense you have to remain a competitive team and that requires continuous investment and continuous management etc so i do think that's a really interesting aspect of and in the infrastructure and of course because obviously the stations i mean you try and get into hybrid and Islington after a game, unless you run out or you leave it a long time, another 20 ,000, how's that going to work?

1:14:28How are they going to get into Finsbury Park or Highbury and Islington? But I'm sure they're looking at ways they can do that. I'm sure they are. All right. Well, listen, the book is fantastic. We've got a couple of copies to give away. I'll give people details of that in a few minutes. John, thank you very much as always. Thank you very much, Andrew. Cheers.

1:14:48Thank you very much indeed to John and the book. Highbury the Definitive Story of Arsenal in N5 the reissue is available now you'll find a link to the publisher's website in the show notes or of course if you're interested in the book you can go to your local independent bookstore and say hey could you order this book for me and they'll say yes we can we'll get that for you so not only do you get the book you're also helping to support the local economy and not, let's say, a giant corporation who last year made gross profits of over$300 billion. $300 billion. But now, because they can cut some jobs by giving them to AI, they've just made 14 ,000 people redundant.

1:15:33$300 billion in profits, 14 ,000 people don't have a job anymore. Absolutely fuck those guys, I say. So if you can consider getting it from your local independent bookstore, please do. It might take a couple of days for them to order it in, but you still have got to do all those things around the house, right? So you can get those done and then settle down with John's book. And as promised, we have a couple of copies to give away. It is very, very simple. We talked about the last game at Highbury, but when was the first game at Highbury? Just give me the year. All you need to do is tell me the year of the first Arsenal game at Highbury.

1:16:13Email your answer, please, to competition at arseblog.com. That is competition at arseblog.com. The random number generator will do its thing ahead of next week's show, and I will announce the winners on next week's Arsecast. All right. Thank you very much indeed, folks, for being here. Hope you enjoyed this particular show. Don't forget, join us tomorrow as we look ahead to our game against Burnley over on Patreon. We can only do everything that we do on Arsblog with thanks to your support, and we do appreciate it a great deal. Thank you so much. We don't do ads on the website at all. It's all thanks to your support, supporting your local independent Arsenal blog.

1:16:51It's patreon.com forward slash Arsblog if you'd like to join us for that. We do a preview podcast for every Premier League game, of course. For now, though, take it easy, folks, and we will catch you on the next one. Until then, cheers. Bye-bye.

1:17:17I'm out.

1:17:37you

1:18:18Welcome back to Augusta National. It is the final round of the Masters. And a surprising name at the top of the leaderboard. 58-year-old amateur Greg Cockington. Not a name many would have predicted to be there or thereabouts. on the final day, but of course the new rules this season have played a part, and here we are. There are players out there who have done better. Rory, of course, as you'd expect, is close to the top, and the American Scotty, shoe, shoe-fo, shoe-shine. But of course these new rules, where not every shot counts, have worked in the favour of our leader today. He's had 17 boogies.

1:19:06But on the basis that we just randomly, arbitrarily even do away with many of his shots, he is the man coming up the 18th in pole position. 142 yards to the pin. Got a nine iron. Fuck. I don't think he likes it. And it's in the water. But it doesn't matter. That's just how sport works these days. Your new Masters champion, Greg Cockington. and back to the studio for an update on the cricket, where I believe England are 273 all out, except nobody's out.