Episode 854 - Injurious Interlull

0:23Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. Interlulls, the bane of our lives. How dare you call the interlull a bane of your life, Mr. Arsblock? But seriously, the bane of our lives, they're gone until March. Not forever, but until March. And that can only be a good thing because it means it's all Arsenal all of the time between now and then. and there's a lot of football to play. Are we going to have any players to play that football? Well, your guess is as good as mine. We'll find out maybe, maybe for Mikel Arteta when he meets the press tomorrow.

1:07But from an interlull perspective, there was a big, big injury, big story, obviously, regarding Gabriel and the fact that he's going to be out for a little while anyway, maybe up to two months, which is far from ideal. So that's something, obviously, that we will discuss in this particular episode. Other bits and pieces going on during the interlull as well, including a big moment for a former gunner. A long-injured player is back in training, and could they potentially help fill the gap while we're waiting for others to come back? We look at the schedule. We talk about how Mikel Arteta might try and rotate, given the difficulty of some of the fixtures that we face and how important they all are.

1:44Tough job being a manager, but that's why you get paid the big bucks, I guess. So we might as well just crack on with today's show with me to discuss all of that from Football London and, of course, the Gooner Talk TV. It is Tom Canton. Good morning, Tom. Good morning. How are you doing, mate? You good, you well? I'm all right. How are you now that this interlull is over? It's been relatively eventful from an arsehole perspective. Are you looking forward to sort of getting back into the grind? Yeah, it's been eventful, but for probably all the wrong reasons, in many senses, frustratingly. I've learned to kind of embrace international breaks, especially, you know, maybe you can empathise as well when you do so much kind of content and work around the club.

2:21The fixtures coming thick and fast can be, you know, enthralling and engrossing, but you can appreciate the breaks, I think, at times during the season. And I definitely tried to enjoy this one right up until Brazil played Senna. Okay, we'll come to that because I feel like we should at least kick off this episode on something of a positive note because there is some bad stuff to get into, obviously, the Gabriel injury and the subsequent reporting around his potential absence. But I wanted to start with Kieran Tierney because, listen, the other night we saw, the other afternoon, Sunday afternoon, we saw an extraordinary finale to Ireland's game against Hungary, which saw Ireland reach the playoffs.

3:02And it was sort of this moment in international football that everyone's like, oh, you don't see those very often. And then, well, Scotland were like, hold my beer. Our Celtic cousins, well-versed in the holding of beers as well. but the Kieran Tierney contribution to that was something else. Now listen, there were two extraordinary goals in this game. Scott McTominay turning into, I don't know what he's turned into but something quite special with an overhead kick and then Kenny McLean with a goal from the halfway line which was, if you've seen the video of it, is hilarious because the co-commentator is going, shoot, shoot!

3:39And he duly does and puts it over the goalkeeper and into the back of the net but 2-2 in injury time and there to spank the ball home from just the middle of the D basically is Kieran Tierney, former Arsenal player, now back home with Celtic. And it's a goal I think that obviously has resonance on an international level for Scotland, but it was great to see and I'm sure many people listening to this enjoyed that moment as an Arsenal fan as well Because with Kieran Tierney, there's a sort of such a sense of goodwill towards him as a player for all kinds of reasons, which we might get into a little bit.

4:19But the injury problems, first and foremost, which really hampered his career. and then to sort of come up with that kind of moment, all the pain, all the rehab, all the setbacks, it must feel amazing for him to sort of step up and send his country through, or at least help his country through to a World Cup. Yeah, I think if any Arsenal fan could have chosen the player, absolutely it would have been Kieran Tierney. I think there was, I weirdly expected more of a celebration from him. I was almost like I wanted to see him do more than what he did because he kind of ran off with like an expressionless face and then kind of was embraced by the coaching staff.

5:01And I think that was just such a brilliant thing to see. And after, as you mentioned, kind of the Irish success as well, well, we hope to be success later on down the line with the playoff, of course, but this was obviously a confirmation of inclusion in the World Cup, which as well as a player, Kieran Tiddy, I think from memory because of injury also missed part of previous major international tournaments as well. So the hope is obviously that he will stay fit throughout the rest of the season and be able to feature in the World Cup for Scotland, who have a number of players in those areas. They've kind of struggled to produce in recent years, at least, going back to the Canadian Dalglishers of these worlds, but more so centre forwards.

5:43And they keep producing fullbacks of great quality with Andrew Robertson and Aaron Hickey, of course, as well, who currently applies to a trade at Brentford and of course Kieran Tierney. So it's where now kind of they fit those players in. And it was almost like appropriate that Tierney's popping up slightly off the right, not as a left back, but off the right and coming into that position to kind of curl a beautifully, just such a clinically finessed finish into the side net and curling around the net. And it's a shame in some ways that such a brilliant goal was scored after it because it almost took something away, which it shouldn't.

6:23And if a goal is going to take something away, at least it was from inside the zone half. That was the only thing that could make me feel somewhat less, more empathetic to the idea of Kieran Sinney not being the only hero of that game. But yeah, I have so much time for Kieran. When I first kind of started working in a media position whereby I was in mixed zones and in those positions where you get more interactions with the players. My time came a little bit too late to be able to speak to Kieran too often. But whenever I spoke to any of my now esteemed colleagues about their moments with Kieran, they always had such nice things to say about how he would interact.

7:07Yeah, I mean, I think sometimes a player, when they're injured a lot, fans lose patience with that player. and they're sort of seen as a sick note. They're almost seen as something that's like, and I think this is human nature and everything else. But, you know, I do think sometimes injured players, they don't get injured on purpose. And most players are really professional. They want to do their best. I think with Tierney, there was a sense of, you know, understanding with the injuries, but also coupled with like what might have been. I remember doing an interview earlier this year. I think it was probably towards the end of last season when it was known that Tierney was going to go back to Scotland and go back to Celtic.

7:51And I did an interview with a Scottish journalist from The Times and he was asking me about, you know, what do Arsenal fans think of Kieran Tierney? And I think he was sort of expecting a little bit of, well, you know, very frustrating. He's always injured and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there was that. But I think more than that, when you think about when Kieran Tierney arrived at the football club in the summer of 2019, and there were bigger transfers than his, by the way, and I think he arrived injured, which probably set the tone, unfortunately. but people discussed and I don't know if you did but you must have heard those discussions and seen those articles about people talking about well Kieran Tierney he's a future captain of Arsenal right and and part of the reason why that was was because when he came in he played in a way that immediately connected him with the fans and and it sort of brought to light what was happening before our eyes, because if this one guy who's come down from Scotland and he's playing like he really, really, really, really cares, like every tackle, every ball, every goal, every point, every minute of every game means something to him, it sort of made you look at what was happening and you realized, not that this guy is sort of out on an island on his own, but he was different.

9:20and it was different. The way he behaved or felt about the team when we were playing felt different from too many of the players that we had back then. That there wasn't that desire or whatever you want to call it. It's hard to quantify, isn't it? But you always knew with Kieran Tierney you were going to get good, honest, 100 % professional. And he felt it in a way that some others didn't. And I think that immediately made him distinct from quite a few of the players that we had back then. And that is why, to my mind anyway, when the injuries hit and when typically fan bases get a bit frustrated with the player and say, well, get rid of him.

10:00He's never fit. We've got to get rid. We've got to get rid. There wasn't quite that same thing with Tierney because we still felt connected to him and wanted him to sort of realize his potential at Arsenal. But obviously the injuries wouldn't allow that to happen. Yeah, and I think that was shown last season when he made kind of a surprise reintegration into the Arsenal squad. I think he started the season and he injured, and he was out at the start of the season and gradually came back in. And because, obviously, the amount of injuries that Arsenal suffered last season, he was sometimes brought on ahead of the left-back to kind of help Arsenal see certain games out to give us that little bit extra.

10:35And it shows it's completely unsurprising that he took to those positions so well. And I remember that the first game that he came back, he immediately put a beautiful cross into the box that was so threatening. I'm like, we've missed that ability in some ways for a left footer and a traditional style of fullback that has been absent from kind of the left-hand side in particular for quite some time. And it didn't, obviously injuries played such a huge part in why it didn't necessarily work out in the end for Tierney under Arteta's era of Arsenal. But every single time Arteta wanted to evolve the team and evolve that position in particular when Zinchenko arrived and there was kind of a change in how that was going to evolve going forward, he would give 100 % to try and play the role how Mikel wanted him to play.

11:17And obviously there were moments where he didn't look like he was the most comfortable doing those things. And a couple of times he was kind of a little bit vulnerable, but he just gave 100 % and he didn't complain and moan. We've had players in the past, I don't want to name names, but there's been players in the past, of course, that have been asked to play roles they didn't necessarily want to play and it's not worked out. And they've gone on record in interviews and spoken about it. You won't hear that from Kieran Cena. You won't hear that. He will play what he's asked to play. He will play when he's asked to play, and he will give 100 % in everything he does.

11:45The other thing I want to bring up as well is that there's so many good clips of him shouting just at teammates during games. And I think that while the pandemic was an awful time for so many people, from a footballing perspective, that it was such a unique period because you could hear the players. And so often during those, if you're ever in, the few that are fortunate enough to be in the grounds, particularly being the members of the press and other staff members, I'd always have conversation. they would just say they could always just hear this Scottish, just raw all the time during an Arsenal game they were covering, because you could just always hear Kieran Tierney in an empty stadium, shouting and screaming at his teammates, and of course asking so much.

12:21So yeah, you're right. And I remember when he signed that new contract, there was such an excitement when he signed that new deal as well. I think he did the interview with Frimy when he signed it, and there was kind of a celebration and a fist pump from him on the camera. It was just again, so it just embodied him. He just enjoyed his time at Arsenal, even though he wasn't able to enjoy it to the fullest extent. No, no. And look, you know, teams evolve and players evolve. And, you know, there was always that discussion about whether Arsenal could use that sort of more traditional left-back at times.

12:51But look, it's worked out well. Enough so far for Kieran Tierney. I think everybody was delighted to see him get that goal. And fingers crossed for him that he can maintain his fitness throughout this season and end up at the World Cup with Scotland and have a good time there. I think he did get the big injury, didn't he, in the European Championships? It was when he did that big hamstring injury. And it was probably an injury that kept him at Arsenal. I think maybe that summer he might have gone had he not had that injury. But, yeah, for a guy who's really, really struggled down the years, it's great to see him get some flowers or thistles or both.

13:27Who knows? Right, let's turn it around then. And obviously the big news of this week was the Gabriel injury and the fact that subsequent reporting from James and David Ornstein in The Athletic says that he could be out for up to two months with a thigh injury. Hugely frustrating, obviously, for Arsenal fans to lose a player like Gabriel. I'm sure you've seen it and I've seen it. Like Carlo Ancelotti is being blamed. Brazil are being blamed. Mikel Arteta is being blamed. Gabriel himself is being blamed. the training pitches the training methods the the pitch at the emirates all of these things are being held up as potential factors in this in this injury that probably tells you how difficult it is to narrow down exactly what has happened here that ultimately the frailty of the human body will manifest itself from time to time in ways that you can't always predict So how do you view the sort of discourse around the injury itself before we talk about the sort of repercussions?

14:39Yeah, I've been part of this discourse and I've put my views out there, so I'm happy to say them here. Maybe it's me just being the emotive fan that I am. I can't help but ask the question of if, and certainly all the information we have, And we have to always recognize as well that we're not privy to all the information ever. And that's always important context into any of these kind of discussions. But what context we do have, and I think it was Natalie Gedra who did the interview on Sky Sports, providing us some context that Gabriel had warmed up separately on the Friday session. Now, that got kind of twisted and turned online into trained separately, which wasn't what was reported.

15:22It was that he warmed up in that session separately. We don't know if that continued into training or not. But certainly we know that he warmed up. And also that there was a consciousness about his load at that time as well going into the game. So in my mind, if I'm a manager and I have a friendly, even with it being at the Emirates, even with it being a Brazil game, which comes with its own context for players and the passion that's associated with representing that particular nation, I still find myself asking the question why it was felt that it's okay to start Gabriel in that game I can't help question that and think that and had I have known the information about him training separately and of course that there was load it was a report that came out during the game and I wasn't proven to the information I was one of the only people from our typical Arsenal pack out that game so I just thought oh great there's a game at the Emirates over the international break I'll go that'll be quite chill afternoon I won't have to do any big stories it'll be a nice game watching football turns out that wasn't the case and had i have known that i would have asked carlo that particular question i asked him for an update after the game and that's the one that he gave about saying he was a very sorry and you know um that they hope that he would return and he had more scans to do but i feel like had i have known that information at the time i probably would have asked the question i imagine it'll be a question that michael arteta is asked on friday um as well but equally there's context to this when with the the argument that gabriel is in focus here and that gabriel should make the decision and i struggle with that one a bit more because obviously as i've mentioned already there's the context of a player playing for brazil in a world cup year there's also additional context that relates back to when gabriel to the best of my understanding rejected a call up to the brazilian national team for the birth of his daughter and an interview with janino came out a little while after who appeared to kind of hint that that wasn't the right choice almost and then gabriel wasn't called up for the 2022 world cup squad after having rejected that call up to brazil for the birth of his daughter whether those two things are linked or whether it's a coincidence we ultimately don't know but those quotes from which are absolute public knowledge and go and read them um in some ways in my mind just from my honest opinion would certainly make me think that those two were linked so gabriel is going to be with this next world cup and in the best form of his life wanting to show carlo angelotti that he is fully committed to trying to get into that squad for that tournament so i empathize with his decision even though i know that there's an element of saying if he will be the one that knows his body better than anybody else and could he make the decision against yeah i mean this is where I think it's really interesting because you know that that idea of right I'm feeling something I'm going to tell Carlo Ancelotti or Thomas Tuchel or whoever it is I'm you know I've got a bit of an ache or a strain here it's sort of how do you gauge that like how do you balance the the character of someone like Gabrielle who people hold up and say he's a warrior he's a colossus he's a fighter which he is all of those things can you separate those aspects of his character from his desire to play whether it's for arsenal or whether it's for brazil like if you take those things away from him is he the same player and players like i don't think there is a single player at the top level of the game who is playing 100 pain-free at any point and And, you know, Gabriel, I'm sure over the last few weeks or months or whatever it is, over the entirety of his Arsenal career, I'm positive there are times where he has had pain and has maybe had to be managed in training, but has played for Arsenal.

19:22So it's trying to find that balance between like, OK, I'm sore. I might have an issue. Can I still play? Yeah, I feel like I can play because I played with this before. I played with this last season. But, you know, this is where it becomes impossible to sort of say, well, if you're feeling anything, you should just say no. I mean, if you're feeling anything and you say no, managers don't have any players to pick from at the end of every training week. Yeah, and it's so hard because I think it's such a good point as well about the idea of trying to disassociate that element of the mentality with how he is as a player.

19:59And it's a point that I've not actually even thought about or heard anyone else raise. And I think that it's really valid because when you take away that desire, the commitment, the professionality of it as well, then I think that you do get a less of a player if they don't have that same commitment. And it does affect the performances and you'll see a different type of performance if you don't have those qualities. And that is why, again, with the context I added earlier, why I have complete sympathy for Gabriel. I don't really point the finger at him. And I think that in those moments that the experts, the medical experts, the coaches, they're the ones for me that have to take on the responsibility of deciding whether or not it is appropriate to imbue any level of risk on another player.

20:42And I just felt in that moment where they've clearly been given information from the club because we know that from the fact that he was warming up separately and he wouldn't be doing that if there wasn't understanding and knowledge that there was something there before the game. to then decide to start him in particular. I was asked this question earlier. If it was, say, a competitive game for Arsenal this weekend and Gabriel was in the same state, do we think, say the North London derby was last weekend, not a Brazilian friendly, do we think that Arteta would decide to start Gabriel in that game?

21:13From a personal point of view, I think he probably would. He definitely would. We know he pushes his players. We know, for better or worse, that he has sort of been on record as saying, you know if you want to be the top players you've got to play every three days that's sort of the ethos that he was wedded to a little bit maybe it's changed now with this bigger squad that he has an acceptance that okay you've got to manage how you you push some of these players but I think that's absolutely right that you know if it was a North London derby and Gabriel was feeling whatever he was feeling ahead of the Brazil game wouldn't we all be saying oh what a great guy he He wants to put his body on the line for Arsenal.

21:51The whole point about, you know, it being, in inverted commas, a meaningless friendly, well, it is to us, right? We've got no skin in that particular game. But as you laid out, there are reasons why, myriad reasons why Gabriel would want to be involved in that game, even if in the grand scheme of things it didn't matter really. But it's sort of all part of the wider picture. I think where I want to go with this discussion though, Tom, is, you know, we know that Mikel Arteta, like we're blessed to an extent, right? Because this could have been a much more damaging injury going into these games.

22:27And it is a big blow and nobody's saying it's not a big blow, but we have options. And I might leave discussion of what he does and who he does for our Patreon preview podcast tomorrow or who he picks rather. Because, you know, it's Christian Mosquera, it's Piero Incapier, it's Ricardo Calafuri. You bring Myles Lewis-Galley back in. You know, he is fortunate to have these options available to him. I think what I haven't necessarily seen is what are the intangibles that Gabriel brings to this team that he can't get from these players? So for various reasons, understandable reasons, you know, Mosquera, Incapier, Calafuri, they do not have the aura of Gabriel.

23:10They do not have that presence, right? And Gabrielle has built that presence and that aura and that reputation over, what, four, five, six years now in an Arsenal shirt nearly. So that to me is the interesting aspect of this, that people, again, going back, they talk about him as a warrior. They talk about him as a leader, the presence that he has in our box, the presence that he has in the opposition box. I think generally speaking, and I could be wrong here, I'll stand to be corrected on this, but I tend to look at the defensive stats after every game when I'm doing the player ratings for Arsblog News.

23:47And obviously one of the key defensive stats is clearances. Typically, Gabriel is top of that list for Arsenal. So there is this character, this presence in our box and in the opposition box that we are going to miss. high quality replacements but how does Mikel Arteta try and deal with the absence of somebody who is and has felt really fundamental to this team and the attitude of this team for for quite some time now he's going to find it really difficult is the honest answer he's going to find it really difficult because as you mentioned in pre talk about presence it's not just about physically the presence of him being threatening from a corner it's not just about being great with clearances.

24:32It's also his presence has an impact on the mindset of the opposition for those moments. And I remember sitting at Burnley next to Charles Watts. When we got that first corner that would then lead to Diokere's score with Gabriel kind of touching the ball back, I just turned to Charles and said, where's the first penalty? Because a corner felt so much like a penalty with Gabriel's presence and the opposition feel that way. Then also, if you look carefully, Arsenal have methodology of kind of building up tension ahead of those set pieces being taken. And Gabriel is often the player that kind of leads those little, I don't like using the word dark arts, but it is a little bit of a dark arts to kind of slow things down, to have a conversation with a person that's going to take the corner because he's building up that tension and the build up for those set pieces.

25:16The little dance on the penalty spot with the guy who's been tasked with trying to stop Gabriel, the sort of handsy sort of shuffle that they do there before Gabriel runs off and, you know, does what he does to good effect. And we're losing. that and that's going to be really really not not massive concerning but it's going to be an impact and i was talking to elliot the other day and and uh he basically turned around to me and said you know no matter how much depth you have no matter how much investment you make arsenal are probably going to drop points over this festive period because we don't have him no matter how good your replacements might be he is that good above anything else that he cannot be replaced in his entirety.

25:58He can be... The gap between him and, say, Kivior from last season, I think, has closed up this season. And while I think I had a lot of time to Kivior, and I think he was an underrated player in our squad, and he helped us through some big games, for instance, in the Bernabeu, I thought he was great. But when it came to the semifinal against PSG, there were some moments where Kivior was a little bit flummoxed. And I don't think that in that way, Mosquera and Hinkapie might deal with those moments better. but they're still not Gabriel but the biggest thing that I think we will miss is particularly the impact for a player like Calafuri so Calafuri is a player that obviously as we know loves to advance loves to kind of be a bit chaotic and move into those areas where you don't expect him to be and that leaves Gabriel with a huge area of that left-hand side of the pitch to be responsible for especially on counter-attacks and moments like that and he's excellent at feeling such a presence across such a large area of the pits because he covers the ground much better than people give him credit for.

26:57He's really good at anticipating player movement. And of course, when other players come into the fold with extra runs, he's really good at cutting them off. He's good at communicating what he wants from his teammates as well. And I think that Hincapié, or if it's a Mosquera of Saliba moving to the left-hand side, while Saliba has got great coverage, of course, he's not naturally left-footed. There's going to be mitigation. There's going to be restrictions that we don't have. And I think that Calafuri is still absolutely a great option for us. But it might be that Mikel thinks, is Miles a better option now to play at left-back for these games without Gabriel?

27:28But even then, Miles has been caught out with a ball over the top and behind at times too. So there's big questions. Could you go with Hinkapie and Mosquera, you know, and choose to play a back four of Timber, Mosquera, Saliba, and Hinkapie is a better option. There's so much choice, which is great, but it's in itself a conundrum because of what you lose with Gabriel not there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. I think he does have some thinking to do, but, you know, there are players in this team who I think can obviously fill the leadership gap. You know, you're looking at Declan Rice, you're looking at Bakayo Saka as well, who really is becoming a leader.

28:05And it's, you know, it's notable, isn't it, that for all the talk of, well, Declan Rice should be the captain when Martin Odegaard is not there. Or actually some people, you know, talking about taking the captaincy off Martin Odegaard and giving it to Declan Rice. when Odegaard is not there it's Pakaio Saka who's wearing the captain's armband and that's something that not too many people have taken note of I certainly have but there are players in this team who have the experience and have the stature you know and the personality I think to try and fill that gap that Gabriel leaves behind so we'll wait and see what he does and wait and see what decisions he makes over the course of the games that we have coming up I don't think it will be the back four the same back four in every single game I think there is a need obviously to shift things around given the way these fixtures are coming there's sort of 11 games between now and December the 30th and quite a number of those are very very difficult tricky games for Arsenal so we'll wait and see what he does about the full squad and I'll talk to you about that in a couple of moments time you know when one Gabriel is gone though it looks like another one has come back Gabriel Jesus pictured in the training pics from this week looking very happy involved in full training in the absence of Kai Havertz, who, according to the Germany manager, had a little bit of a setback, but we're not quite sure exactly when that was.

29:25I'm not sure he was saying, like, well, he was ready to come back this week, and, you know, something went twang again. I don't think that was it. I think he was talking more generally about his recovery from the knee injury. But it doesn't look as if Kai Havertz is going to be back for this weekend. We wait and see what happens with Victor Jokerez. Gabriel Jesus has another centre-forward option. is one many people had forgotten about. And I'll hold my hands up and say, God, you know, I completely forgot that we had Gabriel Jesus. I think there's something interesting about his potential return, about his potential contribution to the squad this season.

29:59You know, he's still only 28. He's got a lot of missed time to make up for. I think there's going to be a real determination on his part to make up for all the, like if we talk about Kieran Tierney, Gabriel Jesus has been really badly affected by injuries as well since he came to Arsenal. It's really unfortunate because he's such a good player. But do you view him as somebody who, between now and the end of this season, might make a valuable contribution because of that, because of the missed opportunities, because of the time he spent sidelined, because of a desire to make up for that, to score goals again, which we know is the lifeblood of any forward.

30:37And as somebody pointed out to me today on social media, it might well be a long shot. and it is probably a very, very, very long shot for him, but there is a World Cup this summer, and he was part of the Brazil squad last time out, which is where he got one of his big injuries for us, unfortunately, but for any Brazilian player, that has to be in the, I was going to say the back of his mind, but it's got to be pretty close to the front of his mind as well when he's thinking about what might happen between now and May. Yeah, and the options for Brazil are Richarlison and João Pedro at the moment, So if he was to have a good end to the season, there's no reason why Gabriel Jesus couldn't feature in that squad either.

31:15So that would be a great motivation, I think, as Will pointed out. And I think that I'd be surprised if he's in the squad this weekend, even though he's back in full training. The only reason being is because we've seen from previous kind of major knee recoveries, as we have with Durian Timber, he was involved with full training for even a couple of months before making his way back into the squad. Now, the context of that was it was towards the end of the season and having him back for the Everton game was great. But you could argue that maybe there's more of an emphasis, more of a desire to kind of speed up that reintegration with the context that Arsenal have with as many injuries as we do in those positions.

31:52So maybe they'll be more comfortable to bring Jesus back in sooner. But again, I'd still be surprised to see him there. But yeah, I think he can absolutely have an impact this season. I don't think, even though we've seen links to Palmeiras, I think before and about a January exit, I wouldn't be allowing Jesus to go in January. I would absolutely be looking to keep him until the end of the season because we know that Havertz is returning from a major knee injury. We know that Victor is playing a lot of minutes, and that has obviously contributed to the injury that he's now suffered. And so for that reason, having another option, who's also very different in profile to what other players we have, he's a lot more technical, lower center of gravity.

32:31I think his movement's good. He can drop in really, really well and link up play. The question mark with Jay Zeus has always been about his finishing and what he does with the end product. And what we saw with him just before that injury is that he'd seemingly found that end product. It was gutting that we lost him in that moment. You know, a hat-trick against Palace, two goals away from home against Palace as well in a game in close proximity. He scored against Brentford as well in a 3-1 win, started that game. And he was starting games in the Premier League when he got that injury against Manchester United that was just so gutting.

33:03and arguably that Man United game will still haunt me forever, that game. But had Jesus have not got that injury, Arsenal probably with him in the presence of, and the form that he was in would have gone on to probably win that game with him in the team in the second half. But we lost him obviously in the first. So I think that Jesus will be, and when I asked Mikko about Jesus, that's the first thing that you pointed out is that desire, is that determination. He has so much momentum to bring into this and desire to show what he's capable of that I think he can really be a force for Arsenal and he shouldn't be ruled out.

33:35No, I agree. I'm totally with you on the January transfer window and if there's interest from elsewhere, I wouldn't be surprised. But I think Arsenal have to look at the injury situation and how we have suffered and the fact that, listen, we went out this summer and we bought big centre forward, paid a lot of money for him. And here we are in November and we're starting Mikel Moreno up front. And that's not criticism of Mikel Moreno in any way. But going into this weekend in the North London Derby, it might well be a case that Mikel Moreno is the guy to start up front again, which is, you know, he would probably be the first to say, well, you know, that's not ideal.

34:17It would be better for us if we had Victor Jokeres or Kai Havertz. So we have to recognize that even if you try and add depth and add quality to your squad, you can still end up in a position where, how do I phrase this? I don't mean you're scraping the bottom of the barrel. That's not what I mean. But you're having to resort to like plan C or plan D, you know? So that for me is all the reason you need to keep Jesus around. Because look, Jocheres could come back and who knows what happens. Havertz could come back and who knows what happens. You know, having a third center forward as well, by the way, as somebody who can play left and right as a winger, to me seems almost like a no-brainer.

34:58yeah i think i think that when you're considering the threat that arsenal have had this season and you look back at the games as well the the games at the start of the season you think about the leeds game the forest game arsenal managed to get themselves into a kind of a style that we'd seen maybe in 23-4 where we were scoring more freely and the injuries that arsenal have suffered have been so frequent and to such high profile players that they've been kind of these hammer blows to our momentum and to our ability to unsettle teams to be unpredictable we are unpredictable because we have so many injuries that you don't know who's going to start at times um but it gets to a point where there are so many injuries that it becomes very predictable how arsenal gets set up and i think that a player like marino and i love the way you put it when if it was if it was up to him he he would say it isn't ideal that he's there but the thing about marino is is i really like him I really like Mikel Marino, not just as a person, because he's great to talk to, but also his ability to just continually prove doubters wrong.

36:04And having a player, having like a presence like that, I think is going to be so critical when the ball falls to a random player in the box. His clinical ability is great. He's arguably one of our best finishers in the squad, I think. And I think having that in a North London derby where chances may be far and few between could end up leaning in our favour. He's also scored in so many big games. You think, scored against Liverpool, scored against Chelsea, scored against France for Spain in a big moment for them, scored against Real Madrid in the Champions League. And the players he's got around him, Saka and Trossard, are in really good form at the moment as well.

36:40And that, I think, can lift us up also, which is really, really important. We had a question on Moreno, actually, from our Discord, from Corporate Goon, who says, and I think this is quite an interesting one, because I don't think anyone really doubts at this point, Mikel Moreno's ability in around the box. Give him a chance on his left foot, he can score, he can score with his right foot as he's shown for Spain. Score with his head as we've seen countless times for Arsenal. But I think there's a stylistic issue when you play Mikel Moreno up front as opposed to Victor Jarkarez or Kai Havertz, that sometimes it's hard to take the central midfielder out of the centre forward if that's the right way to put it.

37:19So Corporate Goon says, do we anticipate any changes impressing with Mikel Marino up front. I feel as if the biggest loss is not offensively, but in the off-the-ball workers, one would not necessarily describe him as fleet-footed. And I think there is something interesting in that when it comes to our approach on Sunday and maybe the game against Bayern Munich, and who knows, that there is a tendency, I think, for Mikel Marino to drop a little deeper than we would like. I wonder maybe if that's part of the instruction from Mikel Arteta that, okay, we don't want you chasing around up front because that's not your game.

37:56You're not the sort of Kai Havertz, long-distance runner kind. You're not as physically powerful as Victor Yarkira, so we're not going to ask you to play with your back to goal and try and hold the ball up. But for me, sometimes he does drop a little bit too deep. And I do wonder whether that might be something or something that Mikel Arteta and the coaching staff will be working on going into a North London derby where I think obviously the onus is on Arsenal to go and take the game to Tottenham and to play the game in the Tottenham half and to make it difficult for Tottenham in our half. How do you view Marino's fit in that sense in sort of the tactical setup that we might implement in the next couple of weeks?

38:39Yeah, against Sunderland, his heat map kind of had him in kind of the Jodegaard kind of position where he was kind of dropping into kind of this right half space outside the box more and it was too deep. Will we try something slightly different? Is the fact that Arsenal are playing at home also a factor? I think that it is because I think typically we will be a lot more in Spurs' half than we were in Sunderland, for instance, playing at the Stadium Alight. So he should have a lot more support. But when you come up against arguably the Premier League's most mobile back four with Romero, Van der Ven, Porro and Adoji, who we expect to be the back four for this game, I think, that in itself creates additional challenges for a player like Marina who doesn't necessarily have that same level of mobility and a way to change his positioning on the field.

39:28So I think that Trossard's a really interesting point in our front line at the moment in terms of press, because I think he has grown in that regard this season. And I think he has. One of the things since the contract renewal, not the renewal, but the improvement of his terms, was that I think he's responded really well to the improvement of his terms going up. and I think as a player, he's obviously been one of our most impressive and he tends to turn up in big games as well. And I think you'll see Trossard being a lot closer perhaps to that kind of left half space. He won't be going as wide as option.

39:57He will be supporting Marino in giving us those additional options centrally. Saka, I think, obviously loves to stay more towards the touchline and then move towards the box, more towards kind of the goal line. But I think Trossard will play closer to Marino and that will hopefully encourage Marino to stay slightly further up. zuby and rice his own presence behind marino are important in that matter as well but the key the interesting player at the moment for me and the arson team because you just don't really know what you're going to get from is is ezra in the 10 role and what he does because i think in there's been a fair few games where sometimes he's kind of dipped in and out of presence in games in position for me i think his future for me lies i maybe it's where me and you differ andrew in this because i think i see him more on the left being the better option for me i i don't disagree with that by the way i think i think sometimes what the maybe what i said in the last couple of weeks was that i think um criticism or scrutiny of as has come of him in a position which isn't necessarily his natural position right okay so we're asking him to do a slightly different job and do it from a slightly different area.

41:06And I think he's been doing it pretty well because I think he brings things to the team that don't always look like they matter, but they do matter in terms of how you make the opposition play. But if I were to say, where do I see Eberache as a, in the ideal position, it is sort of in the left eight position or so, you know, that sort of hybrid eight, 10, maybe even out on the left-hand side. I know that's a difficult space for him to get into now because Leandro Trossard is doing so well and it's absolutely great that he's doing so well. I just think it's more about recognizing the fact that Eze has come into the side to replace the captain and to do a specific job.

41:49And I think he's doing it pretty well. Maybe people want a bit more end product from him, but it really is more, not saying that's his ideal position, but what we're getting from him, I think is good. It can improve. And I think there are elements of his game that will improve over the course of this season. But it wasn't necessarily like, this is where I see him as the starter from now on. Because for me, in the long term, I think the left wing is potentially where I want to see Esamor. And the reason why I want to see Esamor there from a tactical point of view is that I think he's obviously a moments player.

42:24And you tend to see your moments players in this particular system playing in the sacker or the trossard role with those big moments, those big goals. And in the 10, his responsibilities are doubled effectively. You have so many more responsibilities, pressing, tracking back, being kind of that focal point and the connection between the midfield and the forward line or even the defence in the midfield at times when he drops in. And that's why when Odegaard returns, it's going to be really interesting to see what happens with Ezra. Because as you mentioned, that left eight role, when Odegaard got injured, he got injured in a game that Ezra and Odegaard were partnering each other in midfield with Rice behind and Zbemendi on the bench.

42:58Yeah. Yeah. And I said afterwards that he didn't really get a chance to kind of see what that was going to be like. And it could have been that that is. And it proves me wrong and thinks that Ezz is actually going to be better in that left eight or left attack in 10 or however you want to describe it. I think that for the weekend, Ezz's role, I think we have to see a level above for Ezz than we have. And I agree. I think he's done a decent job for the difficulty of that position to be thrown into that role so early in his career at Arsenal. but I think that Sunday's a really important day for Eze in terms of how he operates with that pressing that we were talking about a moment ago and how he joins up with Mourinho and how in some ways he kind of his presence has to push Mourinho into more advanced positions and stop him from dropping in yeah yeah no I I agree with that and I think uh you know if we talk about desire if we talk about motivation uh with regards some of the other players you know what's Eberachie Eze going to be feeling going into this game.

43:56You know, his first North London derby as a senior Arsenal player, playing against a team that, you know, he potentially could have joined before he joined Arsenal. But all that boyhood, Arsenal fandom, and this occasion, I think we're, you know, we're going to get something from Eze from this game. But yeah, we'll keep fingers crossed for that. I mean, just before we move on, there were a couple of questions about, you know, how we try and rotate the squad over the next little while. On the Discord, Simeon says, what does team rotation look like across the pivotal next three games where it's Spurs at home, Bayern Munich at home, Chelsea away?

44:45That is a difficult, difficult run of fixtures. Can you play the same starting XI in all three games? No, I don't think he can. Can you make wholesale changes from game to game? No, I don't think he can. So it is a balancing act, isn't it, for Mikel Arteta about how to best manage the players he has available. And as yet, of course, we are not aware of who might be back and who might not be back this weekend. There's some hope that somebody, one or two, maybe more, could be back, but still some doubts over the others. So it is a hard one to sort of to make a real judgment on, given we don't know who might be back and what other options he has available to him.

45:29But it is you can recognize it as a tricky situation. It is tricky. And these three games are definitely a defining moment, I think, in this part of the season. And if Arsenal come through, particularly the league games with maximum points, it's a huge statement and a huge response to the dropping of points at Sunderland as well. and I think that has to be beyond anything the priority I think that these two league games should be for me the overwhelming priority of these three fixtures because Arsenal have positioned themselves really well in the Champions League from winning four from four and winning them without conceding a single goal and have positioned themselves in that sense really strongly I also think that Bayern are in a little bit of a difficult situation having lost Luis Diaz for this game through suspension who has been so influential for them this season, only second probably to Kane.

46:23And obviously they are without Jamal Musiala, who's been a big loss, but they still managed to go on an amazing run, as you would expect from them. I still think that it's interesting, kind of like the idea of wholesale changes against Bayern, because there is part of me that's tempted to really ring the changes against Bayern because of just the level of importance that I place in my mind on those two league games. and of course now this kind of this gabriel injury bringing up fears of who else is in the red zone who else is going to go into a game that shouldn't be going into a game starting probably if you had a choice to arrest them there's that fear in the back of my mind but we have this depth now players like miles luis skelly were brilliant against atletico madrid when they came in for that game and that atleti game was a real kind of tester for players like miles who had not played too many minutes up to that point came in did really well ethan winery scored a great goal for the under 21s during this international break and played well so he's someone else that could potentially feature if you want to give ezra a break between the two games who played in both of those england fixtures against albania and serbia as well can you rest saka well maybe if we get nonny madoway k back and again i think you rightly point out we're in this kind of period of unknown who is who isn't going to be there the players i'm most hopeful about at the moment are martinelli and Madiweka as potentially being players who could come back.

47:43And if we do get them back, it's not an ideal game to bench players backing from injury against Bayern Munich, but we might not have much of a choice to be able to do that. So I think that Bayern game, and I really want to beat Bayern for obvious reasons that should be secretive to anybody just because of our history with them, just so we don't feel like they're little brother. I do feel like Bayern try and little bro us a little too much. I don't know if you saw the tweet when they were drawn against us in the Champions League and they tweeted saying, hello, Arsenal again. And it's like, I don't want to be little bro'd by Bayern anymore.

48:18And I really would like to beat them. But quite frankly, the Chelsea and the Spurs games are bigger fish for us to fry than that Bayern game. I get that completely. But I think in the mind of Mikel Arteta, there probably is something about, right, we have to sort of, whether it's, I don't think it's the most important thing in the world, But is there a psychological benefit to going and beating Bayern Munich after the pain that that club has inflicted upon us for years, right? Whether it's the five ones or whether it's not getting the penalty that Bakayosaka should have got right at the end of that game or, you know, going there, losing 1-0.

48:54We just didn't have enough in the tank, et cetera, et cetera. Then you look at what Bayern Munich have done this season. 17 games, won 16, drawn 1, and the one they drew was last week or just before the international break. In the Champions League this season, beaten Chelsea 3-1, beaten Paphos 5-1 away from home, beaten Club Bruges 4-0 at home, and went to Paris and won 2-1 with 10 men for the second half. If I'm Mikel Arteta, I understand why, even if you can make a very compelling argument as to why those two league games are more important. I get it completely. But I also think he just is not of that mindset where he'll go, we can take an L against Bayern again.

49:40I don't think so. I don't think that's the way his mind works. And I don't think those are the... I'm not saying that we should take an L. No, no, I know. Listen, I know exactly what you're saying. Like if, you know, come May, let's say we pick a weakened team against Bayern and we beat Spurs and we beat Chelsea and whatever happens, happens in the European Cup, in the Champions League, but we go on and win the league. You might look at those six points as sort of pivotal to the title race and say, that's, you know, we got it right. But losing is just anathema to Mikel Arteta and not doing his best to win a game.

50:16He just cannot countenance the idea of that. That's why I said it is tricky, you know, because he has to use the squad. We recognize that. We all say it. He has the best squad available to him. Well, 75 % of the best squad, the other 25 % are unknown at this point, whether they're available or not. But this is where, I mean, the job of a manager gets really hard, isn't it? Because, you know, you can say all you want. Well, yeah, we'll beat Spurs and we'll beat Chelsea. Ke Sarasaray against Bayern Munich. But, you know, if it's an hour in against Bayern Munich and we're 2-0 down, nobody's fucking happy about that.

50:51Nobody's saying, well, you know, it'll be fine once we beat Chelsea. So, you know, that's not how it works, unfortunately, as much as we might try to make it happen. Anyway, he'll have plenty to say about that game, I'm sure, after we beat Spurs, after we beat Spurs, fingers crossed. What about this for a question? We'll do a couple of quick ones just to finish off.

51:14Kdale0071 on Discord says, given the fixtures we have in the next few weeks, Do you think we'll see Ethan Wuneri get significant game time along with Myles Lewis-Galley? Personally, I'm worried about Ethan. If not getting game time by January, we'll need a loan to prevent his development from stalling significantly. What are your thoughts? And like you say, he did have a good week during the week, scored a very nicely finished, loved goal for England under-21s against Slovakia. Yeah. So, yeah. Where do you stand on Ethan? Because, you know, I get it. But at the same time, he's also just 18. And he's part of one of the best Arsenal squads any one of us have ever seen, really.

52:02So it is finding that balance again, isn't it? Between making sure you get the minutes that develop the player, but also recognizing that sometimes at 18, there are parts of your game that still need work. Yeah, he's probably the most enigmatic player in the group at the moment because it's really difficult to kind of pin down the next two to three years for him. And the reason why I say that is because obviously what he has ahead of him in the pecking order is just some world-class quality, multiple world-class quality players. You've got, if the future for him, which is what we hear a lot, is centrally, You've got a mid-20s, mid-to-late-20s Odegaard.

52:46You've got a mid-to-late-20s Eberet Jeyza. And maybe there's an argument that that's a good... At 18, it's good that you've got players that when you're turning 20-21, they'll be turning 30-31. And that might be a really good kind of period for him in these next years to see that integration. But then you've watched Max Dowman just burst onto the scene and take all of the attention in some ways away from you as the most exciting young attacking player in this Arsenal setup. And the big debate at the moment seems to be around whether or not Ethan should go on loan. Now, based upon the injuries of this season, I wouldn't be tempted to send him on loan in January.

53:30Not at all. There's not a scintilla of me that would send him on loan in January. But in the summer, I think there's a different question about that and how the squad's shaping up at that point and how we might manage the options. Because if you're looking at a position, because we signed so many players last summer, I don't expect big business in 2026. But if there is an area that we might sign players, it's probably in the attack because you've got players like Trossard, who obviously is over 30, Martinelli's future is always seemingly up in the air and in question. And it might be that that is an area that we still sign another attacking player, which would make it arguably even harder for an area, even though I've mentioned two players, of course, that play typically off the left.

54:11But still, if he's a versatile player, that could complicate things even more for Ethan. So it might be that a loan at that point is good. But I just, I don't really want to see him go on loan because I've seen some really good performances from this season. I've seen some not so good performances from them this season. I think that Arteta has also, there's been some, I don't know if you've noticed it or picked up on it as well, but Arteta has been very honest about Ethan, I feel at times, about how he might have lost duels or in the Brighton game, I think he mentioned he tried to do some things that didn't lead anywhere.

54:41And I thought they were quite blunt truths about an 18-year-old player of that age. I don't buy into the whole Arteta doesn't trust Ethan thing because I think Arteta recognizes that this is a young player who's only eight. And I think people forget how young Ethan is and that he made his debut at 15 and he feels like he's been around for however long now, but he is still only 18. And not many players were getting the minutes that we argue that Ethan should be getting in a team of this stature, at this level of competition that Ethan currently is. So I'm not worried about him. I am conscious about him and just think that maybe we're a little too overawed about his pathway right now.

55:21Right. Well, yeah, look, I think, you know, I understand the questions completely, you know, but I also think you recognize the fact that he is still very, very young. And as you say, and look, if we didn't have Eze, maybe it's an Ethan Wennery opportunity this season. But we do have Eze, and he's the player that Mikel Arteta has chosen. And Mikel Arteta's job is to, in the minds of most supporters, deliver some silverware this season. So is that best done with a player of Eze's experience or by developing an 18-year-old who's got so much talent and so much potential? But again, we're talking about the tricky decisions that the managers have to make.

56:04Just one final thing, Tom, before we call it quits here. Interesting announcement from Arsenal this week that the Visit Rwanda sleeve sponsorship will cease at the end of the season, which is interesting because all the talk over the last little while was that it was going to be renewed. And from what we had heard, it was going to be renewed for a fairly long term period of time. And things have changed. Something has changed. A decision was made somewhere. We don't quite know when or why. Visit Rwanda or the Rwanda Development Board have recently done deals with the LA Rams and SoFi Stadium owned by KSE.

56:48So there's no issue with the ownership or anything like that. But obviously it's a sponsorship that has been somewhat contentious or controversial, and many people are happy that it's coming to an end. The question, of course, is what comes next? Can anything good come next in this sort of corporate world that we live in where everything feels a little bit compromised? But it's one of those things as well, isn't it? That, you know, if you want to be a purist, you say, leave the sleeve alone, leave the shirt alone if you want to be really purist. but nobody obviously can do that. But every piece of real estate on your shirt is up for grabs because those 10 million, 12 million, 15 million pounds a year can help you buy or pay a very, very good player to play for you.

57:35So, you know, just quick thoughts on that decision and what you think might happen next. Yeah, Sandin wrote a really good piece about this a little while ago in The Telegraph, which I encourage people to go and read to kind of get up to date and researched and educated around the topic. And I think most fans saw this news, and I'd say the majority celebrated this news, it'd be fair to say, that the sponsorship was coming to an end. And you're right to say, you know, what comes next? Because while many will celebrate that this is one, the contentious sponsorship that's coming to an end for Arsenal that many people have campaigned to see an end of, Again, does it mean that the next sponsor that comes along is going to be equally as contentious?

58:22We don't know. There's no way of knowing. We can't all have angry birds on our sleeves, you know, in the Premier League. Some clubs have. We can't all have that if that's your mobile game of choice. But I would like to see, you know, just be sponsorships in general. I don't know about you, Andrew. It kind of opens up a broader discussion at times about what we invest in, what we wear on ourselves. If you wear the Arsenal shirt, you're wearing the sponsorships that the club agreed to. It's so difficult to kind of live your life. You use the word pure. It's so hard to live your life in such a pure way.

59:01Like wherever you shop, whatever clothes you buy, if you dig deep enough, you'll probably find something, you know, that will lead you to go, oh, I don't feel comfortable with that. But I feel obviously with this instance, There's been so many glaringly kind of obvious factors that have led to people being rather against, very against this sponsorship that it makes it more obvious. But I hope that we have something better that comes along and people go, oh, that's quite nice. I don't know if we will or I'm not necessarily optimistic about that, but that's what I want to see. Yes, I think when you're talking about the amount of money that is required to take on that sponsorship, there's always going to be a level of moral compromise, for want of a better phrase.

59:48It's not going to be Battersea Dog Sanctuary. No, sadly it's not. Should be. Should be. We should donate our sleeve to good causes. That would be my thinking. But then people will just accuse me of being some kind of old lefty do-gooder. But, you know, Battersea Dogs, make your pitch to Arsenal right now for the sleeves. All right, we better leave it there as ever, Tom. Pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much. Pleasure's all mine, mate. Pleasure.

1:00:14Thank you very much indeed to Tom. You can find him behind all the ads on Football London. But for a cleaner Tom Canton experience, you can subscribe to his YouTube channel, The Gooner Talk TV, and you will find a link to that in the show notes. So, look, that is just about that. Obviously, there's a bit more to say and a bit more to talk about when it comes to the North London Derby on Sunday. We will do that as we always do over on Patreon, a preview podcast for every Premier League game. And if you want to join us over there with instant access to that and everything else that we do on Patreon, it's just$6 a month plus VAT.

1:00:49If you have to pay VAT, not everyone has to pay VAT, but some of you do and that is out of our hands. But$6 a month, it is the same price as it was when we launched back in 2018. We haven't put our prices up. We have no plans to put our prices up. So if you'd like to get more from Arseblog, as well as supporting everything that we already do and give out for free, patreon.com forward slash Arseblog is how you can get on board there. And we will be delighted to have you as part of that Patreon community. If that's not something you can do, we love you just the same. And thank you so much, as always, for being here and listening to this particular show.

1:01:27One final thing before we go, by the way. I know many of you have these things already, but the Goodly Morning mug is back on sale. You'll find a link to the mug in the show notes. So if you're looking for a Christmas gift for the Arsecast Extra listener in your life, if you know somebody or live with somebody who wouldn't be averse to drinking out of a container with a cartoon picture of me and James on it, then we have you sorted. And just to be clear, every penny that we make from these mugs, as always, we will donate to good causes. And not only will we do that, we'll get the total and we will double that total and we will donate that to good causes coming up to Christmas, coming up to that time of year where people say it's all about giving.

1:02:10That's what we will do here at Arse Blog. So if you want to get a mug, get a mug and know that it will make some small difference to somebody somewhere out there. Sadly, all the problems of the world can't be solved with mugs, with me and James on them. But we'll do what we can with what we have. And isn't that as much as anybody can ask, right? I'm going to leave it there join us as I said on Patreon for a preview podcast for a more in-depth look ahead to the North London Derby and James and I will be here on Monday morning with an Arsecast Extra fingers crossed for a goodly one in the meantime have a great weekend and we will catch you on the next one until then cheers bye bye

1:03:25I'm out. Thank you.

1:03:58in millions and strengthen relationships with extremely nice and not evil president sauron chief executive dick dickity garlic says this will be great for any arsenal fan looking for a holiday you get more from mordor terms and conditions apply jewelry may be confiscated not advisable for people under three feet tall