Episode 863 - Masterplan

0:23Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. Tom, how are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. Just to let you know, I've got a tactical plan for this podcast. So for the first half of the show, I'm not going to do anything at all. Yeah, you weren't expecting that, were you? That's the genius of the plan, you see. I'm operating on a different level from every other podcaster out there. You see, I'm not playing 4D chess. I'm playing like 8D chess. I'm having a game of Scrabble at the same time. because I'm taking a macro holistic synergistic disruptor energy into this show.

1:04It's a game changer. All the other podcasters will be like, yeah, we were doing stuff in the first half of our shows. And this guy, he's come along and he's just leveraging the drill downs and pivoting to a cultural whiteboard. And that's how you win things, my friends. That's how you win things by doing nothing for the first half. pretty sure that's how you win things. Let me just check the football results from last night. Oh, oh, oh. I think I might have got this one wrong. Maybe if you're in a situation where, I don't know, let's say you need to score a goal in a cup tie, which you're losing from the first leg, you should try and score a goal rather than do absolutely nothing.

2:06I'm now having to somewhat rethink my presentation to all the guys at the CEO lunch, you know, Weberpalooza. But look, like me, you might have been mistaken for thinking that simply not trying to score a goal in a game in which you need to score a goal is a good thing if you're watching Arsenal beat Chelsea 1-0 last night in the Carabao Cup semi-final second leg Gary Neville on Sky going on and on about what a brilliant plan it was from Chelsea and how it's going to work any second now any any second they're going to score a goal and Arsenal are going to be fucked that's basically what he's saying yeah just give it a minute I'm convinced Yep, any time now Chelsea are going to score a goal.

2:51But weirdly, it turns out they didn't score a goal. Now, I'll admit I'm not an ex-player, an ex-England international. I haven't played at the highest level. But nor have I been beaten 7-0 by Barcelona as a manager. So I think we're probably even, me and Gary Neville. And I did not agree at all with his contention that what Chelsea were doing last night was, in some way really brilliant and effective, when in fact it was the opposite. Because when it boils right down to it, Chelsea scored no goals in a game they needed to score in, and we scored one goal in a game we didn't need to score in. So who can say truly if Gary Neville was talking absolute bollocks or not?

3:37I can. He was. It was complete bollocks. And we'll get into all of that, I think, as we discuss this game. We discuss Arsenal reaching a final after probably a bit too much semifinal disappointment over the last number of years. We're there. We're going to be at Wembley next month. It remains to be seen who we're going to play. Manchester City have a 2-0 lead over Newcastle going into their second leg tonight. So it's probably going to be them. But, you know, football is a strange thing. The important thing, though, is that we're there. And we did the job that we needed to do last night. and maybe Chelsea made it a bit easier for us than it might have been.

4:15But I'm not complaining. I'm not complaining. The important thing was that we got there. So why don't we talk about the game and talk about how it all went down? And with me to do that this morning is Lewis Ambrose. Good morning, Lewis. Good morning, Andrew. Feeling happy? Feeling happy. I'm sure everybody's feeling happy this morning. Chelsea are miserable. We're on our way to Wembley. What more do you want? That's it. Maybe just, you know, if the sun could come out here, that would be nice. Haven't seen the sun for about two weeks, it feels like. So maybe I need to just sort of get some vitamin D tablets to offset that.

4:51But apart from that, I think we're all pretty happy, you know. It's quite a funny game, this, to talk about because there's been so much discussion of it and so much reaction of it. And what Chelsea did, what Chelsea didn't do, what Arsenal did. And, you know, I've in the intro taken a slightly sardonic approach to the way that Chelsea came into this game. Because, you know, if I'm going to play devil's advocate, right, you could probably make a good case that, you know, it's one goal. It's a cup semifinal. You're coming to the league leaders, a team that's, you know, top of the Champions League table.

5:35you don't want to go all out from the very start so you could say keep it tight nick a goal in the second half get it to extra time maybe you score again in extra time or you take it to penalties and I can see that argument I can see that sort of plan Anfield 89 well exactly I've seen people mention it yeah kind of kind of keep it tight nil-nil at half time and then do what you need to do in the second leg. I sort of think, though, in cup football, you've got to go for a little more than Chelsea did last night. I was watching that first half and I was thinking, am I watching a tactical battle here?

6:20Or is this just a really dull, cagey half of football, you know, which you could dress up as like, you know, in a match report, maybe somewhere in the Guardian, and somebody might say, and at halftime, it was an intriguing tactical battle, which means fuck all happened. How did you view the approach from Chelsea? Is it understandable or is it in the context of a game that you need to score a goal in, kind of a waste of a half of football? I do understand it. I think, you know, if we're Arsenal fans, Anfield 89 is such a central part to our history and our lore as a club. And I think if you look at it through that lens, I do get it.

7:13I think it's weird for us, maybe, because we're not used to teams, even though we've gotten better and better over the last few years. But if you go back to, we'll come on to how long it's been since we've played a final. And if you go back to the last time we played a final and the last time we played a final in this competition, we were kind of a punchline in many ways. Opposition teams, big clubs did not respect us. And I thought that was what I saw from Chelsea. Respect that you cannot just turn up and put Arsenal under pressure and create chances and bully them. And I can definitely see the idea, see the logic behind, you know, the best way to get through is to make sure Arsenal don't get a goal and finish it.

8:06The other side of me thinks, well, don't die wondering. If you'd have come out the blocks and if you'd have really tried to put us under pressure, like Liam Rossini talked about, the stadium maybe could feel nervy. Well, make it feel nervy from the first minute then. don't try and make the stadium nervous the crowd nervous on Arsenal's backs in the last 20 minutes thinking oh we could upset them now well you could have maybe put us under the cosh a lot earlier than that so I think they didn't have a full team available Palmer wasn't able to play much more than he played Esteval had travelled to Brazil and back in the space of the last few days so Neto missed a failed, a late fitness test, Rhys James the same.

8:55So I guess there's an element of hands tied behind the back in terms of team selection as well. I can see why you would do it and if it works, it works brilliantly and if it doesn't, then everyone goes, well, why the fuck do you waste an hour of football like you said? Yeah, it is contingent on it actually coming off, isn't it? Because you are playing a cautious game. You're taking a, by being conservative, you're sort of taking a risk as well at the same time, counterintuitively. What struck me last night, and I don't know what your experience of watching the game on TV was, but we had Gary Neville on Sky Sports, and he was constantly talking about what a great plan this was.

9:34And, you know, Chelsea were going to take it late and deep, and the stadium would get nervous. And he was talking, you know, I can hear the Arsenal fans around us. They're not really liking this, which didn't come across. I have to say, sometimes you know fine well when the Emirates Stadium is a bit nervous and the fans are a bit on edge. I don't think that was the case last night. So, you know, this was my impression of it all was informed by what I was receiving through the television as well. So I accept that. I acknowledge that. I just think, you know, what really struck me was that if Mikel Arteta had done this, and maybe it's the grace that a new manager gets, right?

10:11He's new in the job. He's absolutely a new manager, a young manager. He's come into a big club and he's only there three or four weeks and he hasn't had the time that he would like or maybe in a season or two seasons time his approach is a bit different. So you get that bit of grace. but I you know you wouldn't be able to move for headlines and think pieces and reaction about how Arsenal and Mikel Arteta were super conservative and you know risk averse and boring and all of this kind of stuff if we had gone to Stamford Bridge with the roles reversed and we had needed to score and played that way in the first half you know I know it's not like for like exactly but that's Also, what we've had to contend with quite a lot this season is so much micro-analysis of Arsenal as a football club, Mikel Arteta as a manager, every single performance, etc., etc., that this felt like a very slightly different kind of playing field, if that's the right way to put it.

11:13Yeah, maybe it is just that sign of how far we've come and how we're looked at compared to Chelsea now. earlier this season we went to the home of the champions and were slaughtered by the likes of Gary Neville from the second the lineup came in and Mikko Marino was in midfield alongside Declan Rice and Martin Zubemendy like you say we've we've contended with that this season and similar to last night different to last night because we didn't need to win at Anfield that day Gary Neville went on about you have to go and try and make a statement and well the league table doesn't lie I think we've made our statement over the course of the last six or seven months in comparison to Liverpool yeah, the time he was going on about you have to make a statement, you have to show the intent to win similarly to last night the game was tight, there weren't many chances and there was one goal near the end of it in that one we didn't get any points Last night, Chelsea actually had to win the game.

12:20And yeah, I think, like I say, I can understand the approach from Chelsea's perspective. I don't think it deserves loads and loads of credit. It didn't work, firstly. And secondly, it never even looked close to working. They didn't threaten at all. Kepa made one save of note, I felt, in the first half. Enzo Fernandes with an effort from just outside the box. We had a very similar shot, similar save from Sanchez brought about by Incapier with an effort after a set piece that sort of the ball fell nicely around the edge of the box again. And Incapier here was a very similar shot, very similar save.

13:04And that was all either goalkeeper really had to do for that and maybe claim a couple of crosses and try and defend a couple of corners for pretty much the entire game. Yes. If you turn up somewhere, we're a better team than Chelsea. We have better players than Chelsea. We've got, this team's, we're an older team than Chelsea. This team's had years to gel under this manager. So I think we were obviously the favourites going into last night. And any game plan of Resignas and Chelsea's was never going to change the fact that we were favourites and they were going to have to be spectacular and we were going to have to play really, really far under our level.

13:45I think to, you know, to lose at home or to lose by a couple of goals at home. But yeah, they didn't turn up like a team that actually I thought that believed they were going to turn it around. And I think when maybe when the manager's telling you, let's get to 60, 70 minutes, not out of it. Maybe then it's hard to kind of go through the gears and turn it up in those last 20, 25 minutes. Well, that was a thing that Neville kept talking about with regards to Arsenal. that, you know, they played like this. It's going to be very difficult for them to change it now. And it's like, well, does that not apply also to Chelsea?

14:21Who, by the way... We never needed to change it. Well, that was my point. A clean sheet and we're through. Exactly it. We didn't need to do anything. We didn't need to score. Yeah, it suited us. And listen, you know, I accept issues of Chelsea having some players missing, but this is not like plucky underdog, low spending. You know, they bought 100 players in the last couple of seasons, you know. So I think that factors into things as well. But do you think Mikel Arteta would have been, I mean, I do, I think he would have been quite happy with the way Chelsea approached this game. Because, you know, if they were going to be risk-averse, if they were going to be cautious until 60 minutes when they made a couple of changes, it was around 60 minutes when they made a couple of changes, right?

15:04Let me just look. Yes, 61 minutes. They brought on Palmer and Estevão and took Dilap and Hato off. So that was clearly the plan. Give these guys half an hour to have a run at Arsenal. If I'm Mikel Arteta, I'm thinking, fine. Yes, please. I'm all right with this. I'm not saying it's easy. And all jokes aside, I think you have to, maybe we'll talk about it in a bit more detail in a minute. You have to give Arsenal credit for the organization, the discipline, the preparation. That was something Arteta talked about as well, because he talked about how they were prepared for what Chelsea were going to do and obviously do in different stages of the games.

15:46He was speaking on Sky afterwards, I think, and he talked about having to play mini games within the game. So you've got the game and then maybe to an hour, Chelsea are going to change it. And he talked about, well, yeah, after the last half an hour and then the last 20 minutes and then the last 10 minutes because the dynamic changes. And he said, we prepared for all that. So I think you've got to give Arsall, jokes aside, whatever you think about Chelsea's approach, you've got to give Arsall credit for recognizing what Chelsea were doing, adapting, controlling, not allowing them to do anything other than maybe have a couple of speculative efforts from distance.

16:28and, you know, that requires a level of organization and discipline and energy as well within a game that, you know, it might look like we didn't do a great deal and we didn't do a great deal from an attacking perspective, which I think is another interesting aspect of this discussion. But, you know, there's a lot of effort required to sort of keep opposition like Chelsea at bay when they do eventually try and change the dynamic of the game because they weren't able to. Yeah, I mean, defensively, this team is, we know this, this team is formidable, this Arsenal side with Gabriel and Saliba, with Timber as a sort of one-on-one defender winning his duels.

17:13It wasn't Calafuri last night. You still have the first choice back four, but I thought Incappier was excellent at left back. I thought the questions around Hincapié are probably more going forward and on the ball and having an impact in the final third. I think you really saw the benefit of having a natural centre-back playing left-back last night. He's not a lumbering centre-back. He's quick, he's wiry, he's incredibly tenacious. And I thought that was probably his best game so far for Arsenal, defensively, definitely, last night. And I think a tricky battle against the lap. So having a striker put out there up against you, big and brutish and physical.

17:56And then he went off and Estival came on and it was more of a tricky winger. And Higapie stood up really, really well to both of those tests. We're really hard to score goals against. And I think Mikel Arteta can always lean on that. And I think if you want to talk about Chelsea's approach, our approach in cup football, well you have to score against us to have any chance and and the two goals we dominated the game at stanford bridge the two goals came from lapses and would have been goals that arsenal the arteta and the players would have been quite disappointed with i think and last night there were no lapses there were no opportunities gifted by arsenal uh chelsea if they were going to do something they were going to have to do something really really really clever really spectacular really intricate and you know I think when you you set the bar that high for what a team has to do to score against you then you give yourself an incredible chance of keeping that clean sheet I think to you know go back to your point about whether or not Mikel Arteta would have been happy with Chelsea's approach to that game as you said that my mind went back to well what would Mikel Arteta do in this situation I think that's the answer to the question would he be happy well we were in this situation in the Champions League semifinal last season and we flew out of the blocks.

19:17We didn't get the result that we wanted, but we flew out of the blocks against PSG and I think we really scared them in that first 15, 20 minutes at the Parc de France. A game in the exact same scenario, really. You're playing a top team, they're one goal up, they're at home. And I think we clearly, the last time we were in that situation back in May, we took the approach of, right, let's put them on the back foot immediately. Let's pin them back. Let's try and get the early goal and see if we can rattle them a little bit. We did rattle them. We didn't get the goal. But I think that answers whether or not Arteta would have done the same and whether or not he'd have been happy with Chelsea doing that.

19:56I think if we go back to that semi-final against PSG, I'm thinking, well, presumably he'd do the thing he'd least like to face in that situation. And he'd probably be pretty happy with Chelsea coming to the Emirates. And as you say, if you want to put it that way, wasting the first hour. Well, great. Now we only have to keep a clean sheet for half an hour. Well, that's exactly it. That's exactly it. You know, he did get booked, Mikel Arteta, on the sideline for what looked like at least a jovial kind of conversation with the fourth official. But who knows exactly what went on there? A smile on his face.

20:31I'm sure whatever he was saying. A smile on his face and daggers on his tongue, perhaps. But, you know, there wasn't a great deal to this game in terms of entertainment and enjoyment. I mean, one of the things that also struck me about, you know, if I, and look, obviously, it's a disgusting thing to even consider. But if I were a Chelsea fan this morning, beyond being knocked out by Arsenal and beyond seeing my team take a really cautious approach to this game, I would have also maybe looked at the Arsenal attack last night. I think the back four, Keeper had little to do, but the back four and the two midfielders, Zubamendi and Rice, were excellent and really, really important.

21:16And the others did their work too in that sense. But as an attacking force, there wasn't a great deal from Arsenal last night. Now, on the one hand, there didn't have to be, although a goal would have obviously been quite beneficial, would have calmed any nerves that were out there and made Chelsea's job a lot more difficult. But I would have looked at that front three and thought, that's not the greatest front three. I don't think we've maybe discussed it on our preview podcast a little bit, but it doesn't really work for me. I don't know that it really clicks. I think maybe with Mattaweke and Martinelli on one side you probably need somebody like Jesus up front rather than Victor Jokerez and as I came in Martin Odegaard was not available, not fit so as I came in like that would be a source of regret for me as well that they're like if Arsenal had to step it up last night and if Arsenal had to really go at Chelsea and score a goal if Chelsea had scored and we needed to score another goal I would have been, as a Chelsea fan, probably more confident in the ability to keep that front three out than other combinations Arsenal could have fielded last night.

22:33Yeah, I guess, do you need three centre-backs up against Victor Jokeres? He doesn't get on the ball loads. He doesn't have loads of touches. He completed one pass last night. Do you need to have an extra centre-back to keep him more out of the game? Likewise, I think Martinelli, Maduike, players who, compared to Saka, compared to Trossard, they don't get as involved in the game. They don't keep the ball and kind of build pressure. So, yeah, I think this was, if you look at the Arsenal line-up, I don't think Chelsea needed five defenders back there. Kaissédo in front of them as well. or Caicedo and Andre Santos in front of them as well.

23:19I think this is a game that maybe Rossellini looks back at and thinks Enzo Fernandes could have played deeper in Montreal next to Caicedo in this one. Or you could have played the back four. Arsenal did a couple of times nearly get through over the top. That's what it was. A couple of good runs from Gabriel Martinelli. But that looked like the only way that this front three was ever really likely to give Chelsea too many issues. You know, there's not much. There's a lot happening at high speed with the three of them. There's a lot happening direct and in behind with Martijn Eli and Jokeres especially.

23:57There's not much guile. There's not much kind of unlocking the door. So do you need a back five? Probably not. And yeah, it's another one that I guess, look, Rosinha's very new to this level of the game. He's obviously had a good year and a bit with Strasbourg, but I think maybe that's one that if this game is played in a couple of years and he has a year or two under his belt as a manager at Premier League level and against teams like Arsenal and Manchester City and Liverpool, yeah, I wonder if maybe he'd have approached it differently. And to touch on, like you say, that front three, I agree it doesn't really work for me either.

24:39I think there's not quite... There are different ways, obviously, to set your team up. It's hard to argue with the result because we didn't need to score a goal yesterday and we never were threatened going the other way, really. But we've played this front three a few times. Forest away for the first half, Bournemouth away to start that game. it's never really done it for me either and you know personally i would definitely like to see more balance there at least one player who's maybe a bit more likely to hold on to the ball and bring others into play i think the three of them are all quite individualistic and quite direct and you know balancing it like you say with jesus down the middle especially when urdegaard wasn't on the pitch as well.

25:30With Jesus through the middle or Trossard on the left would have been a more balanced team for me. But, you know, it worked. It worked. And of course, we're through to Wembley, which we'll talk about now in a few minutes' time. But there were changes from Arsenal as well after Chelsea made changes. He took Maduweke and Jokoraz off and put Havertz and Trossard on. There's a bit more there, I think, in terms of the combination. Martinelli on the right, I think, is quite interesting over the last couple of days as well, like a different kind of an option on the right-hand side. We had a chance, I think it was a Timber.

26:12No, it was a Gabrielle header, wasn't it? It was a cross in. Gabrielle headed it off Cucurea's face. What a shame. What a shame, indeed. There was a free kick just outside our box, which I will admit to saying, I don't like this. I did not care for that particular moment because it was just one of those where you could envisage all the ways that the ball might go in the back of the net. And I looked at an angle of it from behind the goal at one point. I was like, oh, I don't like that wall. What's the story with that wall? I don't think I like that. And then Kepa's positioned in a way where I really didn't like the wall, but they didn't make the most of that particular opportunity.

26:51Do you think Arsenal should have had a penalty? I think Arsenal could have had a penalty I think it's if the ref gives it I think it probably stays given and when the ref doesn't give it as soon as you see the replay and there is a touch on the ball then I think we know a touch on the ball often renders in the eyes of the officials the follow through a trailing leg kind of meaningless if you get the ball first you're allowed to kind of do whatever the hell you want afterwards. Yuccares at Newcastle, for example. In the same challenge. Yeah, right. There's another one. So I think, I wonder if it would have been overturned if we'd have been given it in the first place.

27:35I was hoping for a penalty. And then as soon as I saw the replay, I thought, I didn't think there was any way that VAR was going to say, you know, come and have a look at this, where he gets the ball first, but then also clatters Gabriel Martin. I think they're two separate movements for me. Like he does get the ball. There's no question about that. But as the ball breaks into the box, which I think Martinelli, had he been upright, could have got to that ball. There's a separate movement from the defender, which hooks his legs. And for me, it makes it a penalty. If we got away with that at the other end, I would be thanking my lucky stars, I have to say.

28:09I think that was absolutely a stone-cold penalty. Six minutes of added time at the end, where I was like, where the hell did you get six minutes of added time? There hasn't been a goal. There's only been a couple of substitutions. There hasn't been any obvious time wasting or stoppages for injury. So it was like, well, they're really trying to create some drama here. But Chelsea, in that sort of final five, six, seven minutes, were rendered kind of useless by Arsenal. Because again, this I think comes back to the way that Arsenal defended. you can say it's poor from a Chelsea perspective that they didn't get the ball in the box or that they weren't just launching it in there into the mixer because when you get to six minutes of injury time and nothing's worked there really is only one other way to do it isn't there?

29:05Like if nothing's working it's just like stick the big lads up front which they did they stuck a couple of defenders up front I think to give them some presence in the Arsenal box but singularly failed to get the ball into the box. I mean, is that a failure of Chelsea or do you credit Arsenal for, you know, being defensively disciplined and keeping a good shape, not allowing them the angles to get those crosses in? Yeah, I think we did, considering we've been playing on a heavy pitch, horrible weather, and then the pitch took a pounding on Sunday night as well when the women's team played there with the torrential rain.

29:46It doesn't look great at the moment, does it, the pitch? It's not what you... Yeah, I think it's not stopped raining in N5 for a little while. And yeah, as I say, for anyone who watched the women's game on Sunday night, it was torrential throughout. 120 minutes of players running all over the pitch. The ground staff have then had a couple of days to turn it around, not even a couple of days. They've just had Monday to kind of keep it alive and try and get a lot of that water off of it in time for last night's game. And then the rains kept coming down and kept coming down. I think that does something to the legs as well.

30:25You know, running in that heavy... It's not like playing... All of us playing Sunday League down the park. It's obviously not quite the same as that. We're quite Hackney Marshes now. We know the difference, you know. The wet ground is heavier. It takes a little bit more to kick the ball and complete your passes and get the pace you want on it. And every step just takes a little bit more out of you than on a dry pitch on a nice sunny day. So I think it was considering that as well. And as you touched on earlier, the mental effort required to concentrate and defend that brilliantly, that resiliently for so long.

31:06We continued to do a brilliant job shutting them down in wide areas we didn't really allow them any time on the ball in our half we were really disciplined in our shape martinelli getting back and basically playing as a right back at times in those last few minutes i know he can blow hot and cold and there are you know i think very widely varying opinions on gabriel martinelli but he will never not put in the most incredible shift when required and and i think that's part of the reason you know michael ateta trusts him so much in in the biggest games and loves using him in the biggest games i thought we were good i i think chelsea could have done more to work a bit of space and whip a ball in and maybe cause a little bit more chaos you never know when you whip a ball into the box all it takes is a deflection or goalkeeper rushes out with for one that he can't actually come and claim and can't reach and I think Chelsea will be really disappointed if they didn't ask a few more of those questions but any questions they did ask I think we limited them as much as you could possibly hope and yeah, they didn't really swing the ball in and you wonder, you look at this Arsenal side compared to years gone by and if you're looking to swing the ball in and you look up and it's Gabriel and Saliba and Hincapié and Rice in there does that kind of put you off?

32:27Do I want to swing it in to João Pedro when he's sort of surrounded by these guys? Sure. Maybe not. So it's weird. It's weird looking at this game and thinking back 10, 15 years, this is the exact kind of way that we would feebly lose at Stamford Bridge in the final 10 minutes needing a goal. And just sort of that role reversal. And what we've become, this defensive monster of a team, is really strange. I also liked, you know, you mentioned the balance up front with the front three and the subs and bringing on Havertz and Trossard. And that did give us a little bit more as well of the ball, I thought, compared to maybe the 10 minutes beforehand.

33:13Over the course of the evening, Jokor has completed one pass. Havertz came on and in his, it's not loads, but in his half an hour completed six. I think Maduweke, similar, completed seven or eight passes. Trossard came on and completed seven in less than half the time. And I think that's when you're looking to see a game out. It's great having the defensive solidity that we have and those big men in the box heading things out and Martinelli running around closing crosses down. But to have a couple of extra players on the pitch who might put their foot on the ball and keep it a bit more simple and hold it up and complete a couple of passes as well.

33:52I think that makes a big difference. every few passes you can complete like that is 30 seconds where you don't have to defend and concentrate and track your man and head something away. Exactly. And if the ball's up the other end of the pitch, they can't score from there. If you have Trossard holding it up in the corners as he did. I mean, we get to then the last few minutes where Chelsea are huffing and puffing and absolutely failing to blow the house down. And I'm sure people will at this point have seen the incredible fail video posted by former Chelsea captain John Terry as he recorded himself going, come on, boys, you can get a goal.

34:33I don't know if he was doing it live, but it's just so weird. He actually recorded that and then uploaded it to TikTok or whatever. and listen, if we had finished that game nil-nil and it had been an absolute grind, I wouldn't complain because the job was get to Wembley, deal with a semifinal and make sure you're in the final and you have a chance for silverware. So I would not have complained. But the coupling of what happened with that kind of John Terry video where he said, okay, come on, we're going to do it. And for him to not either understand the offside rule or be too busy filming his own mug that he didn't notice how onside Havertz was in that moment was just glorious.

35:22And I think that goal, you know, it was a grind. It wasn't the most enjoyable game you'll ever see, but that moment in the 96th, 97th minute just sort of was kind of just what we needed or just what we wanted. It was a bit of icing on the cake. The cake was already served up, you know, we were going through, but this was the icing. Kukurea plays a nothing ball forward. It's a really poor lofted pass to someone, maybe Estevão over on the other side. And Capier reads it, heads it down, Trossard plays it down the line to Declan Rice. This is a brilliant, brilliant pass from Declan Rice. Yeah. And we're also, by the way, on his left foot, in the 97th minute of a game where we've, you know, and he, by the way, I thought was excellent defensively as well.

36:09but all of a sudden he's free on the halfway line he's a breaking forward taking that opportunity to get forward when he could have stood there and kept his uh position no you know he said i saw the interview with him on cbs afterwards he said he was shattered um which i understand because like you say he didn't have the legs to run into the corner well listen like jesus get this ball to someone else so it's not my my responsibility anymore well listen it's a great pass it really He has a great pass on his left foot into Havertz, who's got Martinelli in support. I really like that Havertz took this on.

36:47That's a guy who's missed a lot of football and has decided now that he's back, he's going to be really decisive in those moments. It's not the first time he scored against Chelsea, by the way, in an Arsenal shirt. He likes a goal against Chelsea. He always, you can see on his face that he really likes to go against Chelsea as well. He doesn't just have a knack of scoring against Chelsea, but he really enjoys it. He really does. And he really did. But it's a very well taken goal, isn't it? It's just cool, kind, collected around the goalkeeper, rolls it in. Pandemonium, you know, the game is absolutely 100 % secure.

37:27But also, I think, you know, to endure, which I think is a not unreasonable way of talking about the previous 96 minutes, to endure those 96 minutes, but then to have that moment at the end to sort of crown your pathway to Wembley, I think is just really nice. yeah it is like you said a nil-nil we'd have all been happy with a nil-nil but it's nice to have that moment of you know the shoulders come down you know it's done it's sealed and and you get a moment to to celebrate as well celebrate a goal see the ball hit the back of the net and I think you know this last this next few months until the end of the season I think I have it hopefully could be huge for Arsenal and I think we've really really missed him and as you said to it looked it felt like a player I wondered you know as the ball arrives with him you see Martinelli there what's he going to do is is he going to wait and wait for Sanchez and lay it off that looked like excuse me that looked like a player who has missed scoring goals and is really determined to have an impact and get on the end of things and score goals.

38:46I think you don't often see big emotions from Kai Havertz when he scores. I think lots of players will go mad. Kai Havertz is usually sort of a jog into the corner and a bit of a grin. I thought considering how much the game actually meant, the celebration against Kairat already felt like a big sort of release from him. it must be a huge weight off your shoulders you know after so long back I think you can return to playing again but you probably don't really feel like you're actually back and actually helping the team the way that you want to until you're having a bit of an actual impact that you can see and feel and for an attacking player that means goals and yeah he took it brilliantly a player who as a centre forward the biggest criticism probably has been his ability to finish moves off when he gets in front of goal I think Kai Havertz you can't question the work rate the ability to hold the ball up and bring others into play the movement the question if there's been a question has often been right but when a chance falls to him in the box is he going to finish it and here we are he's up front for 25 minutes, 30 minutes with the added time nearly.

40:08He gets one chance and he takes it absolutely brilliantly. It's a weight off his shoulders and I think hopefully a sign of things to come because if Kai Havers can stay fit and play regularly up front, then it adds something that we've definitely been missing over the past few months. Yeah, that is for sure. I mean, it's a couple of goals and an assist in the few games that he has been back so far. So, you know, there is... A lot of football this week too. Well, yeah, as well. Taking it slow with him over the past month after he came on against Portsmouth and he looked quite tidy that day. And then, you know, I think last week we were talking about how...

40:51Is there a... Is he really fit? Is he ready to play? And then suddenly in the space of a week now he's played what? Sort of a game and a half's worth of football. A huge, huge boost. I mean, you could forgive a guy who's been out for that length of time for taking a while to get back to, well, I think he probably is still trying to get back up to speed and proper match fitness and all of those things. But in the meantime, to be actually producing goals and assists and impacting games in the way that he is, is a very positive thing, right? Yeah, and in light of, especially in light of the Michael Marino injury, I think if Marino was injured, was available still, you may be talking about Havertz still having a bit more time to ease himself in.

41:39You've got Jokeres and Jesus up front. You've got Marino and Rice and Odegaard and Eze midfield. Now, well, we don't have Marino. Odegaard has a little niggle that kept him out the game last night, and we don't know what that's going to look like. We've got a midweek game after midweek game after midweek game, on top of all the busy weekends. There are a lot of minutes. They're going to have to be shared. And with Mourinho out, with Odegaard carrying something, there's every chance that Havertz is back involved again at the weekend. And it'll be four games in the space of, what, 10 days for him.

42:22So it's important that he's not just fit and available, but actually, like you say, ready to have an impact. So obviously reaching the final is the aim. When you get to this stage of a competition, you've got to get there. You've got to get yourselves over the line. And we've done that. So, you know, congratulations to the team and to the manager. But I think as well, you know, it goes a little bit beyond this season, a bit beyond beating Chelsea. You know, you always want to beat Chelsea. Because in the past, we have had some semifinal disappointments. I think we're always looking to see, you know, where this team is making progress.

43:01Are we doing better than we did before? So I think there's maybe a little psychological aspect to this game as well, or to these two games against Chelsea where, you know, the ambition is obvious when you get to a semifinal, it's to get to the final. But there was some baggage that came with being in a semi-final again. And, you know, hopefully, you know, it is part of the progress that we see result in intangible things. But, you know, would have been another big question mark, wouldn't it, had we not come through these two ties as well as we did? Yeah, we've lost, we've been knocked out of the Cups over the past few years.

43:42Almost every time we've faced one of the other top teams in England. Liverpool in this competition and the FA Cup, Man City in the FA Cup, Manchester United in the FA Cup. Newcastle last year, maybe not quite the weight of some of those names, but a team that finished in the top four last season and won this trophy. We've sort of fallen at that hurdle in the Champions League against Bayern and PSG. It feels like when we've played the really top teams, Real Madrid accepted maybe last year. In the cup competitions, we've not found a way, whether it's been tight or in the case of Newcastle last season, not tight.

44:21We'll just not find a way to get through. And as a fan, I'm sure for the players, I'm sure for Mikel Arteta, it plays on your mind a little bit that you've not got there. We, as Arsenal fans, we've been incredibly fortunate. The number of finals we've seen our team in, the number of trophies we've seen our team win. but you know I think even when it wasn't the way everyone wanted it to be at times under Arsene Wenger there were still finals there were still semi-finals there were still finals there were still cups along the way after a bit of a wait for one and it's been a really long time now six years since the final eight since the final with any well I mean we played one in Baku eight since the final at Wembley and a final that really many fans could attend.

45:16Yeah, of course, 2020, there were no fans. 2020, there were no fans. Baku, the year before, there were... Few fans because it was just... Few fans because it was Azerbaijan and hardly anyone could get there. And it cost an arm and a leg and weeks and weeks of time of travelling, enough work and everything. Hardly anyone could make it all the way to Baku. Nobody could get to Wembley six years ago. You know, it's eight years. It's eight years since Arsenal played a final and half the stadium was there, decked out in red and white, ready to watch Arsenal compete for a trophy over the course of 90 minutes.

45:53That's considering the journey we've been on with Mikel Arteta over the last six years. And we've come really close to achieving really, really big things. These cups mean a lot to us still. You know, the FA Cup obviously more, but this one too, when you get to this stage, it's a trophy and it's a day at Wembley where you get to see your team compete for a trophy and hopefully lift the trophy and I think the players more than anything the players need it the players need that that albatross around the neck that needs to be gotten rid of all these all this brilliant football at times maybe not so much this season all this brilliant defensive work all the points that we've gathered in the Premier League over the past few years at the end of the day nobody's got a medal there's nothing to show for it william saliba's not played in a final for arsenal gabriel hasn't played in a final for arsenal declin rice bakayo saka none of these players not a single one of them uh saka was the only player at the club who was in the squad when we played chelsea in the finals in the fa cup finals he was on the bench didn't get off the bench yeah if you look at the lineup from the the final in this competition eight years ago when we last made the final of this competition against Man City, who will probably play in this one.

47:13It's hard to believe that just eight years ago, that was Arsenal 11. This is about time. It's long, long overdue that these players get the chance to play in a final and have earned the chance to play in a final for Arsenal and to have a day to celebrate. We've had a lot of wins over the last few years. We've picked up a hell have a lot of points we've scored a lot of goals and there's been loads of clean sheets but as fans with this team we've not had a day to celebrate a piece of silverware and now finally again we have the opportunity to do that I think it is big from that perspective as well you know because it was something Arteta was asked about in the pre-game press conference was that obviously winning the FA Cup in 2020 was great, but that was not the world we thought it would be.

48:09At that point, the world was a very different place. And like you say, there were only a few journalists allowed in. There were no fans allowed in. It's a very different experience, isn't it? You know, there is something, when you win a trophy, there's something so communal about it, you know, You're celebrating with the other fans around you. You can feel that connection between the fans and the team, the trophy lift, all of that kind of stuff, which I've been... Half full Wembley, as loud as it was when it was full. Exactly. With everybody having a great hour or so. I've been there and I've been very lucky to be there to see Arsenal lift some FA Cups at Wembley.

48:53and it's an amazing thing to experience as a fan. But it's also, I'm sure, an amazing thing for the players to experience with the fans. And I think there is something there in what you're saying about the connections that we have or the connection that we have with this team. It hasn't manifested itself in that moment, that experience that, you know, I think they've worked very hard to try and achieve but have come a little bit too short in a couple of competitions in recent years. But that sense, you know, which is part of how we all feel about this season, is that we want them to succeed and we want them to win and we want to see them lift trophies because, you know, that's what it's all about.

49:40That's what football is all about, winning things and winning trophies and all that. But there is something a bit more than that as well. Like it feels like that moment, that occasion that really solidifies that connection between player and fans is overdue, right? Absolutely. And like, let's not go correct. Like this isn't the moment that we're waiting for. The 22nd of March cannot deliver the moment of salvation that we've all been waiting for. it cannot satisfy us this season it will not satisfy the players absolutely not there's no doubt about that nobody is going to be playing the league cup final uh and and hopefully win the league cup final i think right job done uh it has to kick on to something else and we're all aware of that they're all aware of that but to have a day where we get the opportunity to just celebrate, not worry about what the other score was or is the goal difference enough?

50:45And all of that and we're 1-0 up and there's 15 minutes to go and we get over the line but it's like, oh Jesus if we play like that next week. No, there will be no if we play like that next week. If we get over the line like we did last night or like we have in some of the league games this season, it'll be right now we've got a trophy in our hands and now we all get to have a party. So it's not the moment that we're all waiting for, but it's a moment. And these things, we've waited. I'm certainly one of those fans that the League Cup, you know, in the earlier rounds, I can very happily leave it.

51:24I very happily watch a lot of the younger players play. I was raised on the Arsene Wenger era and seeing Sanchez Watt and Jay Simpson get a run out in the League Cup and Carlos Vela chipping Sheffield United goalkeepers and Jack Wilshere coming on and exciting everybody. That's the League Cup kind of to me in my head still. But when you get to Wembley and you get the chance to win something, I think it's six years waiting for a trophy. As I say, eight years a final with a lot of Arsenal fans there, nine since we won a final with a lot of Arsenal fans there. nothing at Wembley and with a trophy on the line at this stage can be taken for granted.

52:10We've reached that point where we know this team has been great, but if this team doesn't start winning things, it will never be considered great. They won't be remembered. We've now got a great opportunity to win this one. Declan Rice did an interview with Sky Sports recently. Before the first leg, I think it was before the league game, it was before the first leg. He sat down and it's one of these sort of big interviews they do pre-match. And I think it was with Jamie Redknapp. And he talked about this competition, how excited everyone is. And he talked about talking to Raheem Sterling last season where he was at the club and Sterling talking about Man City winning three or four of these, I think, in a row.

52:51And saying that lifting that trophy in February back then, the finals in March this time around, lifting that trophy in February and then multiple times going on to win the league, that it gave them something. It gave them a little kick for that run-in for the last couple of months of the season. And I think if Raheem Sterling's been in that dressing room last year telling players that, then these players will feel that as well. These players, obviously, I think as fans, certainly, when we talk about the nerves that have been in the stadium at times this season, the frustration, the disappointment that we've maybe not been a bit more convincing and clinical and dominant at times.

53:33It's all attached to this, the fact that we've been good, but we haven't got over the line. And I think this is not to be underestimated that if the players go out there and win this one, then that will give them the feeling too. Okay, we're onto something. We are getting over the line. We are making progress. and I think you saw that in the way they celebrated last night. The team that Arteta picked, again, and then the way that the players celebrated, they really, really want this. And whether it's important or not psychologically, if they believe it's important, it becomes important. Well, that's exactly, that was always my contention when people, you get to the business end of this competition and people are like, ah, fuck it, you know, focus on the Premier League, which I get, I understand.

54:16That's the one we all want. But I think for these players who have come close, there is huge benefit if they can win this final to sort of going right at last. We've won something. It's not the only thing we want to win. It's not the biggest thing we want to win. We're now super focused on winning the Premier League or who knows the Champions League or maybe both. You know, let's get greedy here. But, you know, that is the way that they will see it. But you can't tell me, you cannot convince me that there will not be a benefit to these players and the manager and maybe even the fans as well in terms of our belief, you know, in what this team can do in the final part of the season if we've got a trophy under our belts after so long, you know.

55:00Arteta said, I think after the game, the best vitamins we can have are the ones that take us to the final, something like that, right? Because, you know, there's a lot of effort gone into it. But that sense of losing legs are tired legs, right? When you win. And minds, and minds. Absolutely, absolutely. So there's huge benefit to doing what we did in these two legs against Chelsea. and hopefully, you know, it will be a great day out at Wembley for everybody who's going to be lucky enough to be there and these players can lift that trophy and have that moment and then, you know, kick on and see what we can do in the rest of the season.

55:42So, listen, I think we've pretty much covered everything there, to be honest. The question is, like, how will that impact what we do at the weekend against Sunderland? It's Wednesday, but we've got a couple of days to think about that and we'll record our preview podcast over on Patreon as we normally do on a Friday and look ahead to that game against Sunderland on Saturday. For now, though, Lewis, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much indeed. Cheers, Andrew. Thanks.

56:08Thank you very much indeed to Lewis. You can find him on Blue Sky. He is at lgambrose.bsky.social at lgambrose.bsky.social and Lewis, of course, as I said, is the co-host on our Premier League preview podcasts, which we do every weekend for all of our Premier League games and also all the other big games in the Cups and the Champions League, et cetera, et cetera, as well. So you can join myself and Lewis on Friday to talk about Sunderland at home. That's what's next for this Arsenal team as we park Wembley, just put it to one side for the time being. We'll return to that, of course, in due course, but there's a lot more to do in the Premier League starting this weekend with Sunderland at home.

56:46And you can join us on Patreon for that. Patreon.com forward slash arseblog. Right. I'm going to leave it there. get this podcast out to everybody. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for enjoying that first half of the show where we didn't do anything in the end, though. I think it turned out all right. So again, thanks for being here. Thanks for listening. And we will catch you on the next one. Until then, cheers. Bye-bye.

57:33I'm out.

57:52Thank you.

58:25Hi, dear man. Yeah, great. Listen, thanks for taking the call. No, they're fine. No, they're better than fine. The family's great. And how's everything at your end? Great, great. Listen, glad to hear it. I was just ringing to get in touch about, you know, Webapalooza and, you know, the talk we're supposed to be going to. Like, all the big CEO guys are going to be there. Yeah, it's going to be great, great, great. But listen, have you heard about this guy? Like I'm hearing through the back channels that this new philosophy he's got about not doing anything at all is really making waves in the business, you know what I mean?

59:03Great, great, great, yeah. I was just wondering, you know, if maybe that was something we could implement ourselves, you know? Take a bit of the hassle out of the day, you know what I'm saying? Oh, great, great. so I was just wondering, you know, if maybe we could sit down over a flat white and just sort of tease that out a bit, you know, see if that's something that we could put in place for ourselves, you know. By the way, Dearnan, was that yourself in the files that you dare not mention, you know what I mean? Hello, Dearnan. You there? Dearnan. Looks like he's hung up. Great, great, great, great.

59:46Thank you.