Episode 867: Tough draw

0:23Kaya Kaynak: Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. Today, we're talking about the Champions League round of 16 first leg tie with Bayer Leverkusen. Far from a classic. It ended in a draw thanks to a late penalty from Kai Havertz. We could have been taking a deficit back to North London. So on that basis, it's a better result than it looked like it was going to be. But in terms of the performance and the way Arsenal played, let's just say that there is significant room for improvement going into next week's game and even going into Saturday's game against Everton in the Premier League.

1:12Kaya Kaynak: That said, it was not a good week for English clubs in Europe. Manchester City, beaten by Real Madrid, could have been worse. Chelsea smashed by PSG. Tottenham, well, we don't really count Tottenham as a Champions League level team. Nevertheless, they provided us with some incredible comedy and a 5-2 defeat to Atletico Madrid. And Liverpool beaten away 1-0 in Turkey, going down to Galatasaray. So maybe there's something to read into all of that. So we'll talk about that in our discussion with our guests now in just a minute. But I did want to tell you later on, I'll give you the results of the competition.

1:51Kaya Kaynak: The winners of our St. Totteringham's Day print competition. Many, many of you entered. It was the easiest competition we've ever run. All you had to do was laugh at Spurs. It seems like Arsenal fans are pretty good at that. So later on, I'll give you the winners of that competition. If you entered, stay tuned. You could be one of the lucky ones. For now, though, let's get on with it. Let's talk about Bayer Leverkusen 1, Arsenal 1. And with me to do that this morning is Kaya Kainak. Good morning, Kaya. Morning, Andrew. How are you? I'm okay. I'm just about recovered from that enthralling, exciting game of football we all enjoyed last night.

2:25Kaya Kaynak: Tongue very slightly in cheek there. But yeah, listen, I think there's actually a bit to get into and maybe a bit to chat about sort of more widely or broadly about how English clubs have been performing in Europe this week. but we are here to talk about the 1-1 draw with Bayer Leverkusen. No surprises in the team from Mikel Arteta really. There was a decision to be made about who was going to play on the left. Leandro Trossard wasn't with the squad. Mikel Arteta said afterwards he still wasn't feeling 100 % comfortable after picking up the knock he did against Mansfield in the FA Cup. So it's Gabriel Martinelli.

3:05Kaya Kaynak: Beyond that, not really any surprises in that starting XI?

3:08unknown host: No, I know you and James are talking about the possibility of Noni Maduweke maybe even starting on the left earlier in the week. And it'd be interesting to maybe see that again because it was kind of the first couple of games. I think it was Leeds was one of the games he started there and sort of went OK. And then Saka got injured, I think, in that game. We never really saw it again. But yeah, it seems like Martinelli's the guy and he's been so good in this competition as well. It sort of made sense to play him. And yeah, like you said, there wasn't actually that many choices that really could make with the line-up.

3:38So, yeah.

3:39Kaya Kaynak: So look, early on, there were a couple of little moments, I think, which are worth touching on. Victor Jokerez, who hasn't always been the cleanest in possession or with his back-to-goal, had a couple of moments. One was a very nice take and turn and pass on the halfway line. And the other was the sort of turn that I've been hoping he can produce, to sort of play with his back to goal, with a defender up his arse, for want of a better phrase, that I've been looking for for a guy of his size. So he used his strength really well. He turned Robert Andrick on the edge of the Bayer Leverkusen box, got hauled down, and it's a yellow card for the Bayer Leverkusen captain.

4:23Kaya Kaynak: A couple of moments later, a couple of minutes later maybe, There was a foul by Andrik again, blocked off Jochrez, who had sort of put the ball down the line. It was a fairly cynical foul. A lot of talk about whether it might or might not have been a second yellow. I mean, you've seen them given. There's no question about that. In this instance, I think it's so early in the game, the referee is willing to give Andrik the benefit of the doubt, which he certainly wasn't a bit later in the game with some of the yellow cards that he dished out, you know, particularly to Zubimendi. And Kai Havertz got a yellow card for something that I still have no idea about.

5:03Kaya Kaynak: Let's deal with that potential second yellow card first. I mean, where do you stand on it as like, right, we don't want to really see the game ruined five minutes in, but also as an Arsenal fan, I'm happy for it to be a bit ruined if it means we're going to play against 10 men, you know?

5:24unknown host: yeah yeah I mean if you look at it objectively and you kind of strip all the context away from it as a decision it's it's probably a yellow card but once you apply all the context and it being so early in the game and it would have been a second yellow card and it not being maybe the worst challenge in the world you can see why the referee didn't make that decision I'm someone who I didn't enjoy the refereeing performance last night at all I thought he was weirdly overzealous in some things and then not in others. And I didn't love the way he kept sprinting over to decisions every time. It's actually, he's a Turkish referee.

5:57unknown host: He's the guy, I don't know if you saw the story, who got punched by sort of a club director came onto the pitch and punched him in the face. I saw that story. It was a year or two ago. Right. But not obviously advocating that, but maybe that makes a bit more sense having seen the performance last night.

6:15Kaya Kaynak: It was weird, wasn't it? Because like second half, There was a couple of corners for Arsenal. And by the standards of what we see in the Premier League, it was really, really, really passive stuff. You know, there was a bit of holding, a bit of, you know, shuffling around, but nothing like you would see in the Premier League. Like, if that guy had been in charge of the Everton Man United game from a couple of weeks ago, he'd have lost his fucking mind.

6:38unknown host: Yeah, yeah. And it was interesting. I think that's a theme across the Champions League in general. So the Liverpool-Guard-Sasaray game the night before, that had a lot of grappling at corners despite what Arna Slott's been saying about him being a purist when it comes to all that stuff that had a lot of grappling at corners and it was refereed quite zealously and obviously Liverpool had a goal which I thought was quite harshly ruled out but it was ruled out for fouls and handballs in the build-up and the melee I think those I guess are the differences and we always talk about the differences between English referees and European referees and I think you saw it last night to be fair though to the referee I'm someone who I like the referees to apply a bit of context to a decision I think they didn't in the Premier League last season so the one that obviously springs to mind is that deck and rice yellow card where the referee just sort of takes a beat and looks at the whole context of the game and thinks do I really need to send someone off for this I'm someone who I like a referee to apply a bit of common sense and you know he didn't throughout the whole night but in fairness to him I thought he did there and um yeah obviously I would have been happy if it weren't an Arsenal's I wouldn't have been upset, but I can see why if it had been the shoe on the other foot, I'd have been disappointed for an Arsenal player to be sent off for that.

7:47Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, one of the things I meant to mention in the blog this morning, and I didn't, was the fact that Andriy so early on a yellow card, I was maybe a little frustrated that Arsenal didn't, I'm not saying try and get a man sent off, right? What I mean is put him under more pressure. like make him desperate to make a challenge. And we saw in the opening five minutes, twice we had Jocharez in good positions to cause him problems. You know, twice he could have got a yellow card inside five minutes. He didn't get that second one. But it's hard for me to remember a single instance following that where we applied that kind of pressure on him again.

8:34Kaya Kaynak: And Arsene maybe have been accused sometimes of being, you know, a cynical team, which I think has some merit. But I also think sometimes we're potentially a little bit naive. And I know it's easier said than done, but I would have liked to have seen Jokeres like really stick to Andrik and look for the ball from his teammates. And if he gets tackled, he gets tackled. And if he beats the man, he beats him because maybe Andrik can't make a challenge he can't take the risk of of making another foul and getting a yellow car because I think you know whatever I agree with you about the referee I thought he was a bit um yeah it was a bit annoying at times but I think what was clear from that conversation he had with Andrik was last chance buddy you know one more of those and you're out of here and we did not give either Andrik anything to worry about or the referee a decision to make yeah I think they said

9:30unknown host: commentary that Andrik has a slide tackle tattooed on his calf or something like that. That's right, yeah, yeah. He's a walking yellow card. He was waiting for his opportunity. And I think what's interesting about both those moments is they were kind of transitional moments. So the first one that actually was the yellow card was a throw in the Arsenal took quickly. The second one is a ball over the top that I think Jokeres is sort of running into space. And that's when Andrik sort of steps across him. And there wasn't that many moments like that for the rest of the game because Leverkusen dropped a bit deeper and defended a bit more resolutely and solidly.

10:02unknown host: And there wasn't that space as much in behind for Arsenal to take advantage of. And those runs that you mentioned, Jokeres being really good at and pinning defenders from his time in Portugal, that he hasn't done so much in the Premier League. We didn't see much of it. And I guess that probably plays into why Arsenal maybe weren't able to exploit the weaknesses. But, I mean, Mikel Arteta is so big on if you see a weakness go in for the kill, like exploit it. And yeah, it was disappointing that Arsenal didn't really take advantage of it. I guess maybe they'll try and do something similar in the second leg and see if they can go at it again.

10:33unknown host: But yeah, I just think the game state maybe didn't play into the kind of game that would have stretched Andrik and led him to record. But I think that's a problem throughout the entire game, that Arsenal just didn't move the ball quick enough.

10:45Kaya Kaynak: Yes.

10:45unknown host: There were moments when they did move the ball quick enough, that's when they stretched the Bayer Leverkusen defence and Andrik proved that he couldn't cope. So yeah, that was frustrating across the line.

10:53Kaya Kaynak: I guess that brings us to the chance, and I want to talk maybe about the approach of Bayer Leverkusen subsequent to this. You talk about moving it quickly. We got it out from the back. David Raya bowls it out. It's a counterattack. Saka to Timber. Timber across in towards Eze. Sort of pass. I think it was Andrew Allen said to me last, that's quite similar to the kind of pass that Timber made for the Yuccares goal against Tottenham. Square into the box. Nice step over from Eze. Yuccares lays it off for Martinelli. I think on his left foot, he's going for power, looking to hit it into the roof of the net.

11:27Kaya Kaynak: Just a tiny bit too high, comes off the bar. Nice football from Arssel, a bit unlucky. I've seen some people talk about Mikel Arteta singling out Gabriel Martinelli for criticism afterwards, where he talked about when you have that chance, you know, but really it's about the only chance that Arssel had in that first half. So it's the only one he can really mention. I don't think he was being specifically critical of Martinelli. I think he's just talking about that moment as an opportunity in the game that Arsenal could have gone 1-0 up and just couldn't quite make it.

12:02unknown host: Yeah, I mean, in my previous role at Football.London, I did a lot of Mikel Arteta press conferences and that tendency that he has to kind of idealise games in the post-match race, like, well, if we scored all our goals and the opposition hadn't scored any of their goals, then we would have won the game 5-0. It's like, it's not quite how it works, Mikel, and you need to create more chances. But I guess in these European ties when you're up against good teams, and Leverkusen are a good team, I was kind of misled going into this game that they would be a lot worse than they were because of their Bundesliga position.

12:30unknown host: And I'd read a piece on The Athletic, not to criticise my own employers, but I'd read a piece on The Athletic ranking Leverkusen as the worst team in the Champions League when obviously we all know that's Tottenham Hotspur.

12:43Kaya Kaynak: I don't know where they were.

12:45unknown host: Maybe they were 17th of the 16th. I didn't quite see them. But I think Leberkies were better than we expected. And that was something that Arsenal couldn't come to grips with. Like you say, though, that moment was moving the ball quickly. And a lot of the chances Arsenal did create and will come on to Maduweke's impact came from doing things quickly. And I think that's how you break down those kind of resolute defences. And sometimes Arsenal can be a bit turgid and a bit slow in the final third. And I think we as people who watch them every game, And we know that that's a bit of an issue that's kind of been, I don't want to say endemic,

13:19Kaya Kaynak: but it's certainly been a big feature recently in these sort of relatively

13:23unknown host: lackluster attacking performances. And when they do move the ball quickly, like against Spurs, which they did a lot, and you referenced that pass from Timber into Jokeres, I hadn't thought of that comparison, but it's spot on. And those kinds of movements can be really effective. And I don't blame Martinelli for missing that chance. I kind of think that's the right thing to do. I thought it was the correct finish. You just slightly mesexecuted it. and it was a shame that Arsenal couldn't do more of that, and especially in the game state, once Leverkusen go a goal up, they're not going to be as stretched as that, but yeah, just moving the ball quickly, you see the benefits, and in transition, Arsenal have the players to be a really good and exciting team.

13:58unknown host: It's just a shame they don't do it a bit more often.

14:01Kaya Kaynak: So, I mean, let's just sort of touch on the Leverkusen approach, and I think maybe what I had considered before the game was that in Europe, teams are a little more expansive, might be the right way of putting it, but they tend to come out and play a bit more. Whereas I think what we saw from Leverkusen, it's not that they didn't want to play and they've obviously got some quality. I think the young lad up front, whose name escapes me, Christian Caffone, like he gave Gabrielle a hard time. Declan Rice had to bail him out because Gabrielle got caught in possession. There was quite a bit of wrestling with William Saliba.

14:40Kaya Kaynak: He got stuck in on Declan Rice at one point on the edge of the box. So, you know, it wasn't that they didn't try and play, but I think what they did was look at the Premier League as a blueprint for Arsenal. And listen, they play with a three at the back system and it's a 3-4-3. But I was looking back at certain aspects of it this morning, particularly like early in the second half when Saka was struggling on the right hand side. When you look at that line of defenders, it's five across the back. And that has been not just for Arsenal, but it has been a bit of a kryptonite for us. So it's hard not to think that their game plan out of possession was very much informed by looking at what Arsenal have struggled against in the Premier League.

15:27unknown host: Yeah, I spoke to my colleague, Seb Stafford-Bloor, who covers the Bundesliga and German football for the Athletic. And I asked him, like, are Leverkusen normally like this? And he said, no, he said they're not normally that physical. They're not normally so attritional. And they kind of morphed into a Premier League team in a way where they kind of went man-to-man in certain aspects, but also defended pretty deep and pretty solidly, particularly in the wide areas. I was very impressed with how they defended Arsenal's wingers in the wide areas for the most part. And yeah, they focused big on set pieces and those marginal gains, which, to be honest, I think is kind of the smartest way to play Arsenal, particularly if you're a team that are maybe not where Arsenal are in terms of quality and the underdogs in the fight.

16:13unknown host: I think it's interesting that Premier League football has become kind of a bit of a stodgier style recently, and maybe we'll get onto that a bit more later. But I think the way Leverkusen approached the game was the kind of way that teams have been approaching Arsenal in the league this season and caused them lots of problems. And I thought it was smart, to be honest. And the way Kasper Heumann knowingly looked at Nikola Jović after the goal. It's like he knew what he was doing. And I thought it was, yeah, fair play to them. I think there's been a naivety earlier in the league phase in the way teams have approached Arsenal, particularly the European-style lower teams who are big teams in their own country, the way they've sort of come out and said, well, we're going to play our own game no matter what.

16:57unknown host: I don't know that you can do that. I think there's a mixture of what you need in the Champions League. And yeah, Kufane, like you say, was really good. I thought that's the most rattled I've seen, Gabriel. I tweeted that and people took issue with the word rattled, but I thought it was the most rattled I'd seen Gabriel in a while. He gave Saliba some problems. And yeah, I thought Leverkusen were really, really good. It kind of reminded me a bit of the Porto tie from a couple of years ago where Arsenal went into it, expecting it to be a walkover. And it wasn't. And Porto kind of played to the best of their abilities and used everything in their weapons.

17:30unknown host: Arsenal, for want of a better phrase. Sure. It was Arsenal problems. And yeah, this is the thing. like you're going to come up against good teams with smart managers in European football. You just have to come up with antidotes to that.

17:41Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, that's it. I might come back to that question about the antidote and what Arsenal might do or can do after we sort of go through the incidents of the game. But I think, you know, the Porto game certainly was in my mind last night when I looked at it. I think their approach was far more cynical. In part because of the manager they have and the way he operates and the kind of character that he is. There was a lot more cynicism to their approach because it was like every time Arsenal had a corner or a set piece, they just sort of threw themselves on the ground. They had a very compliant referee that night who just gave a free kick every time it happened, whether there was any real contact or not.

18:21Kaya Kaynak: Whereas I think what Bayer Leverkusen did, and we can all be frustrated with how Arsenal play and we can all hope for better and maybe expect for a little bit better, but I think you also have to give the opposition credit it for a game plan that was, as you say, smart and well executed. And there wasn't a great deal going on after that chance that Martinelli hit the bar. I mean, there wasn't much in terms of goal mouth action for either team. I don't think Raya really had to make a save. There was one save maybe from Incapier a shot with his right foot. You'd expect that goalkeeper to make the save at his near post and then we get to halftime and you think okay let's you know see where we go from here it reminded me of what happened in the opening seconds of the second half reminded me of the Bournemouth game do you remember they scored at that that crazy 3-2 game where Rhys Nelson scored I think they scored after like eight seconds or something in that game is that right They just executed a kickoff routine, which we were not expecting.

19:34Kaya Kaynak: Because you play the ball back and the goalkeeper lumps it. And, you know, we've even seen over the last couple of seasons, teams literally kicking the ball out for touch, like it's a game of rugby. You know, they're playing for territory. And Arsenal were certainly guilty of that a couple of times, whatever routine they had. A frustration for Mikel Arteta, obviously, is that he said afterwards they had shown the players videos of the kickoff routines that Leverkusen had used in some previous games, but were still caught a bit cold, a bit flat-footed. They got the ball forward. David Ryan made a very good save.

20:12Kaya Kaynak: but from the resulting corner it's Andrik who heads in at the back post. I think there's a slight block on Eberachie Eze who notices what's happening there and the Bayer Leverkusen player just sort of puts an arm out and blocks him off but we're not really in any position to be complaining about that kind of stuff.

20:33unknown host: Yeah, it's exactly what we've been doing all season and doing really effectively and they clearly in their analysis spotted a weak point in terms of that back post where Arsenal maybe leave it a little bit lighter and they overloaded it and it was smart. The kick-off routine, it's a bit frustrating because I think there's been a running theme with Arsenal where not from half-time but restarts after conceding a goal, they've been a bit sloppy this season recently and felt like maybe a recurrence of that. I'm kind of a bit in between as to whether that kind of thing can happen and you've got a good goalkeeper who can pull you out of trouble in that scenario.

21:12unknown host: But the set piece is more frustrating because it sounds like Mikel Arteta said before the game that I think he said he showed them three separate instances of Leverkusen doing something very similar. And Leverkusen, I think the commentary said, have only scored four goals from corners this season out of maybe 100 or so, 120-odd corners. So it's not like they're a team that are obviously Arsenal levels of set-piece ability. And those kind of things, those kind of small moments in these ties make a huge, huge difference. And in games where it's going to be about fine margins, in games where the opposition is kind of stunting everything you're able to throw at them, you kind of need to be focused on in those small margins.

21:51unknown host: Because like we've seen in the Premier League, these set-pieces and fine margins where you can control the play make a huge, huge difference. and Arsenal weren't last night and that was probably the most frustrating bit. And I think that's Mikel Arteta, you could see he was really angry about it after the game because I don't know that it's on him because I don't really know what he can do differently or what his coaching staff can do differently really other than, you know, I'm sure he would have sent the boys out after the halftime and said, focus, don't lose your heads, you know, these guys can do this.

22:17unknown host: And he's obviously said he's shown them footage beforehand, but I think that's on the players. And yeah, it does happen sometimes. I guess just Arsenal were able to recover on the night, which is good, but it does feel like, I don't know if it's a symptom of fatigue, maybe playing so many games or all that kind of thing, but it does feel like there have been a few of those moments this season where Arsenal have conceded goals sloppily, which is very disappointing. Yeah, listen, at this level,

22:41Kaya Kaynak: it only takes half a step the wrong way for you to get opened up. And I think what happens from the kickoff, having just watched it again, is Bakayo Saka kind of steps forward and they play a pass through the lines, get it into the box. There's a good run. They cross it. And Raya makes the very good save from the header. But that's all it takes at this level. You know, you expect one thing and then something else happens. And unless you've got super fast reaction times, you can get punished. Ultimately, that's kind of what happened there. I mentioned Saka. He's a captain on the night. He had a very difficult game, perhaps the most I can remember seeing Bakayo Saka struggle.

23:25Kaya Kaynak: And again, you might want to give some credit to Leverkusen, the way they defended. Grimaldo was very good on that left-hand side, stuck to him like glue, but it just didn't work at all for Bukayo Saka. And I think what's interesting about this is that in the past, Mikel Arteta has banked on Saka's consistency, his ability to create end product. And if he's had a poor-ish game, and I don't think he's had many more poor games than this one, to be honest, he's tended to stick with him because he knows he can produce something. An hour in, he takes Pakao Saka off and puts on Nani Matiweke. And I think that was the right thing to do.

24:08I don't want to over-index concerns about Bakayo Saka

24:12Kaya Kaynak: because I think he has been, if not at his best this season, I think he has been pretty decent overall. But this was a night where nothing really came off for him. He couldn't go outside. He couldn't come inside. They kind of read him very well. He looked a bit predictable. So I understand the change. but it is quite noticeable, isn't it? Or notable that Saka is the guy who comes off after an hour because that's not really what happens to him.

24:42unknown host: Yeah, I think it was a weird night in the sense that Bagaios Saka is so good because he can go both ways and it kind of felt like on the night. I don't remember a time really where he went down the line and used his right foot in a way to cause Grimaldi problems and put doubt into his head. It kind of seemed like he was coming in on his left a lot and there was, I think, a clip of him getting frustrated in not receiving the ball from Zubimendi. And I remember in the Brighton game, there'd been a similar thing where I think he'd maybe not received the ball or hadn't used it well enough or something like that and comes inside and scores the goal that wins Arsenal the game.

25:15unknown host: In this game, he did something very similar. I think it kind of felt like, well, screw it, I'm just going to take the initiative and I'm the Kaya Saka, I can do that. And it was blocked really easily by Grimaldo. And I wonder if maybe the frustration of not being able to beat his man, and being less influential than we'd expect kind of got to him across the course of the evening. And it kind of felt like his confidence wilted away a bit, which is unusual for him because he's such a resilient guy. And he's normally so consistent in the way he goes at the fullback and causes them lots of problems.

25:45unknown host: So, yeah, I guess for me, the difference is not so much that Mikel would have stuck with Saka in the past. It's more that he's got an alternative that he trusts. So I love Reece Nelson and that Bournemouth moment, as we mentioned before, That will live for long in my memory, and I'm very happy that it happened. But he's not someone who you're throwing on in the final half an hour of a Champions League round of 16 game to change it. And Raheem Sterling certainly wasn't. So I think now that he's got alternatives and players that he can really use to change the game up, and I guess that's an endorsement of the strategy in the summer where Arsenal went big and signed a squad that is capable of having two genuinely quality players in each position, if not three in some positions.

26:28unknown host: And I think that's an endorsement of what Arsenal did. And now Mikel Arteta genuinely feels he has sort of cards in his deck that he can use to change games. And he did it really effectively because Saka's not going to play world-class every single game. You can't rely on that. There's not a single footballer in history who's done that. And I think to expect him to be of that level is maybe a bit unfair. And that's what Arsenal have done in the past. And obviously playing him every single minute of every single game almost, that's been an issue. that's probably, if we're being realistic, led to some of the injury problems that Saka's had this season and towards the end of last season as well.

27:03unknown host: So I like the idea that if Saka's not playing well, he can come off just like anyone else. And I think it's good that no one's too big for it. And I think it's good that Arsenal have a squad that can change games when they're not going well.

27:15Kaya Kaynak: No, absolutely. I agree with that completely. I just think sometimes there's a, you know, every time a player plays poorly, it's sort of all in on that player. And I think we need to take a wider view of it. But you're right, you know, Saka is or should be, what's the word I'm looking for here? The same standard should apply to Pakao. Saka has, for example, applied to Martin Odegaard when he's been taken off and hasn't played well or sent forward, gets replaced when they haven't played well. And listen, I don't think the overall Arsenal performance was hugely transformed. But what I thought Madueke brought was a real positivity, a willingness to try things, to take players on.

27:58Kaya Kaynak: It didn't always work. But certainly, I mean, I think that the first involvement he had was a defensive one, Madueke. He got back to defend well, which I don't think is always his strength, right? So maybe that augured well for what was to come from him. But Matuweke came on. He was positive. We'll get to the penalty incident now in a minute. There were moments, half moments for Arsenal. Mikel Arteta bemoaned a sort of lack of quality in the final third, where I do think there were a couple of opportunities where we got into decent positions but couldn't quite find the right ball. There was a header for Timber, which I think he actually should do quite a bit better with.

28:42Kaya Kaynak: It's a good cross for Martinelli from the left, and he heads over from close range, and I think he should probably hit the target there. I'm not saying he has to score, but I think he should hit the target. But it's Endeavour from Mattaweke that brings about the penalty. Drove into the box, went down, ref pointed to the spot. I saw the replay and went, no chance. They're going to overturn this completely. lately, whereas when you see it from the reverse angle, there is definite contact on Martinelli as the guy slides in. I think this is the key factor for me, that it is a guy who has gone to ground, he's sliding in and therefore isn't 100 % in control.

29:24Kaya Kaynak: And that contact, I think, is probably just enough for a penalty to not be overturned after the ref has given it, if that's the right way of putting it, right? Because I think if there's that level of contact when two guys are upright, no way is that a penalty. They'll just say, no, he's got to be stronger or the contact isn't quite sufficient for a penalty. But on this occasion, he goes to Grant. Matuweke's foot gets trapped underneath him briefly. But it's there and it's a penalty. And on the basis of the performance that we got from Arsenal, you'll absolutely take that. Even if it's vaguely, vaguely soft.

30:04Kaya Kaynak: Yes.

30:05unknown host: I mean, I have to be honest, I don't think it was a penalty. I think if Arsenal had conceded a penalty similar to that, I'd have been very annoyed. I think Maduike is really clever in the sense the second he feels that he goes down. And we spoke earlier about maybe Arsenal not being streetwise enough to take advantage of the Andrik yellow card. They were certainly streetwise enough to take advantage of what's the mistake from, I think it's Tillman, who's an attacking player defending in the box, who panics and goes to the ground. and it's naive from him to do something like that in a Champions League game with a referee who has shown himself to be quite trigger happy.

30:41unknown host: And you know what? The second I saw Maduweke go to ground, I was like, this referee is going to give that. And then it's just a case of, you know, will VAR overturn it? And I think, like you say, once they see that contact from that reverse angle, which I know a lot of people have been putting on social media, say Maduweke died without showing that angle, which is probably quite disingenuous. But once you see that contact, it's like, yeah, It's not going to get overturned. It's probably soft. And, you know, I can see why people would be frustrated with Madaweke. But I prefer, from the Arsenal perspective, to focus on the great piece of skill that leads to him darting in between two defenders in the build-up.

31:18unknown host: And that's the difference Madaweke made. And whatever he does, he comes on the pitch and he's doing it quickly. And we've spoken already on this pod about the lack of speed in Arsenal's play and the lack of direction and kind of the pedestrian nature of it. Maduweke was the opposite to that. I thought he was really direct, really quick, kind of whatever he does when he gets the ball he's doing it 100 % and you know that can be frustrating because I remember him dribbling inside two defenders in a similar position against Kairat and then sky in the ball outside the stadium almost. And that's the thing with Maduweke, you don't know what kind of end product you're going to get.

31:53unknown host: It could be anything. I don't know that that's ever going to change but I think for him it's interesting. We spoke so much over the summer about Arsenal need a maverick player someone who's going to come in when these kind of games because last season there were a lot of these kind of games against Leverkusen where they were kind of stodgy and they were kind of pedestrian and formulaic and you kind of knew what Arsenal were going to do and you need someone to come in and break the mold I think we all thought that was going to be Ebreche Eza because he was the guy who kind of did that at Crystal Palace and had that kind of individual flair but for me it's turned out to be Noni Maduweke which I think is you know a testament to the signing because a lot lot of people didn't want him when he came but I think he's been really good and really effective as something completely different and I think he he has kept Arsenal in this time not they would have been out of it at 1-0 but he's you know taken Arsenal back to the Emirates where in a position where I'd say they're still quite strong favourites to progress so I think he's yeah he's more than justified the transfer fee across this um this season and I think you know I'd rather focus on that side of it than probably a bit of a dive for the penalty.

32:55Kaya Kaynak: Listen you know it's one of those and And my sort of rule of thumb is like, how would I feel if the penalty was given against Arsenal? I think I'd be able to accept that if an Arsenal player goes sliding in in the box, that you're asking for trouble in that sense, regardless of the fact that it is a bit soft. But you're right to pinpoint the sort of direct play and shifting the ball between the two defenders and getting into the box. And I think he is just going to be one of those guys who, I don't want to say sublime to the ridiculous, but like blows from like hot to really cold. Like you say, that Kairat moment where he just sort of blasted over the bar.

33:39Kaya Kaynak: We saw it against Mansfield in the FA Cup where he scored a brilliant, brilliant goal. But before that, he'd taken another shot like that, I think, which went miles away and then sliced one wide with his right foot a few seconds after. so that kind of inconsistency is always going to be part of his game but there's also an unpredictability to him which is I think very useful for an Arsenal team that might be viewed as kind of predictable in terms of how we play and how we build up and I've got some questions about that for you now in a second tell me truthfully how were you feeling when you saw Kai Havertz take the ball, stand there at Bayer Leverkusen his former club, that little presentation for him before the game and everyone loves him there.

34:26Kaya Kaynak: He's struggled so much with injuries. There was a lot of hashtag narrative going through everybody's mind, I would say, as he waited what he said felt like an eternity to take that penalty.

34:40unknown host: You know what? So it's funny. I ordered a takeaway for dinner last night and when the penalty got given, that's exactly when the guy showed up. oh god now and then by the time i came back i went downstairs to get in by the time i came back it was still sort of he was still waiting to do it and i think the check must have taken a while and to be honest i was pretty confident with kai habits i've seen him take penalties well before he's taken he took big penalties for chelsea in champions league games he's not taken many for arsenal but there's been shootouts where he he's he's done them i only remembered after the game the Manchester United one where obviously he missed it and got a lot of um quite horrible abuse afterwards that for some reason just didn't enter my head and the narrative wasn't quite with me I wasn't feeling it in the same way I just felt super confident he was going to do it and um yeah I don't I don't know why I just felt completely serene it was only when the um he took it and the goalkeeper guessed the right way that I kind of thought oh god this this could go very badly but yeah I felt I felt pretty good seeing Kai walk up to it and to be honest I'm just I'm glad generally that Kai Havertz is back.

35:45unknown host: Yes. He's back for good because he's, you know, he changed the game, I thought, against Bryson. I thought he led to Arsenal controlling the game so much more well. And I thought he made a big impact as well last night in two different positions. And Arsenal need him for the rest of the season, realistically.

36:01Kaya Kaynak: I can't even remember that Manchester United one, to be honest.

36:03unknown host: It was the FA Cup in the No More Red kit. Was it a shootout? It was. it was last season

36:13Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, yeah, the terrible, terrible game I've wiped that shootout Sorry to have brought it back to you

36:18unknown host: It was Odegaard who missed a penalty in normal time, right, that's it, okay Against 10-man Man United

36:25Kaya Kaynak: Let's never speak, oh that's the David Raya jump out of the way of the penalty as early as you can shootout, right? Yes, I think so Okay, well listen, a big moment for Kai Havertz, you know, because it has been a struggle for him of late. And, you know, it was great to see him back. And like you say, I think that there's just something so interesting about him as a player in that, you know, he's not the tidiest. He's not always the most elegant. I think some of the criticisms that might be applied to some of our other forwards also apply to him, but he has this sort of knack of being effective in the opposition box, which I hope he can continue between now and the end of the season.

37:07Kaya Kaynak: So look, 1-1 at the end. like you say, wouldn't have been over at 1-0, but 1-1 clearly a better position to be in coming back to North London for next week.

37:18unknown host: Yeah, yeah. And it's a really interesting one because obviously that game is before the Carabao Cup final. And we referenced the Porto one, that went all the way to penalties. I really hope that doesn't happen next week. And I have to be honest, like, again, as I mentioned before with the stuff I'd read in the build-up on how poor a team Leverkusen were, I was even thinking in the build-up, like, could Arsenal do what they did at PSV last season and maybe rotate before the final? Obviously, that's not going to happen. But I would think that when Arsenal are at home, they obviously have that home advantage and hopefully that can play to their favour a little bit more and they can produce a bit more of an inspired performance in front of their home fans because, yeah, this is one where they were, I think, fortunate to come away with a draw and they kind of need to put it behind them and hopefully, yeah, progress because it looks like it's Bodo glimpse in the quarterfinals and that would be fun I think.

38:09Kaya Kaynak: Well listen, you take nothing for granted based on what they've been doing so far this season. So can we come back to you know Arsenal's struggles and I don't think they're unique to Arsenal but they're certainly at the forefront of our minds and experience because we see it happen a lot. A team that plays in inverted commas defensively against Arsenal with a deep block or however you want to categorise it it becomes a bit of a struggle to close things down. There were some pass maps going around last night and everyone's going, no, the horseshoe of death is back. And there's part of me going, well, you know what?

38:44Kaya Kaynak: You know, I've seen this blamed entirely on Martin Odegaard at times. And it tells you that this is a collective issue rather than an individual issue. And I think Martin Odegaard is somebody who Arsenal miss. I know his season has been punctuated by injury and he hasn't found any form or rhythm. But I do think in these European nights in particular, we referenced that Porto game earlier on. It was his pass for Leandro Trossard, I think, to score the only goal in the game at the Emirates where he just has that ability to kind of unlock a defense which is sitting deep, which is something I do think that we need.

39:28Kaya Kaynak: But you mentioned the clips of Saka looking for the ball. I think there's another clip of Martinelli looking for the ball out wide. And our midfielders and players in positions where I want to talk to you about in a second, they're on the ball, but not getting it wide quickly enough. And I don't think inherently the horseshoe is bad because it's what you try and do. It's what you try and use to move a team from one side of the pitch to the other so you can open up space. but it is entirely dependent on moving the ball quickly, right? Getting the ball out to those wide areas much more quickly than Arsenal did last night.

40:12Kaya Kaynak: Can you think of any rational explanation as to why it doesn't happen? Is it something we've got to credit the opposition for, that they're capable of resetting and getting back in position very quickly? Or is it Arsenal just not moving it quickly enough? or is it somewhere in between?

40:33unknown host: Probably somewhere in between. I think Arsenal have been good at, so throughout this season, Arsenal have been really good at pulling those low blocks apart through constant rotations of players. And that's why we see Uri and Timber ending up in the centre forward position probably a little bit more than we'd all like. And that's why he seems to be on the end of some really important chances at the minute, which is kind of frustrating. And it works because those chances are created by smart movement that pulls players out of position. Another way they do it is by, obviously, the Premier League and Arteta spoke about this, and I think we'll speak about this in a little bit more detail in a sec, but it's become a lot more man-to-man and the way you kind of deal with that is by shifting away from your marker and Odegaard's so good at that in terms of just having that little dart away from whoever's in front of him and creating the space, like you said.

41:24unknown host: And once you create the space, there's a lot more easier ways to pass forward and I think Arsenal have lacked that in recent games. You have to bear in mind that a lot of the creative players and the attacking players for Arsenal are out right now or haven't been consistently available for most of the season and if you look at who Arsenal did have available last night, Maduweke was great when he came on but I wouldn't describe him as necessarily like a creative player in the Odegaard mould who can unpick a lock even though he did. I know that maybe sounds counterintuitive. No, I know what you mean.

41:55unknown host: I know what you mean. Same with Martinelli, same with Jokeres. And Eze, I think, has that power, but hasn't shown it enough in an Arsenal shirt. And so, yeah, it's a weird one. Those kind of games, they seem to happen a lot to Arsenal. And it's frustrating when you see it. But, yeah, I guess you have to credit Leverkusen as well. I know that's what Mikel Arteta would say. That's always his stock answer is sort of, why can't you break the opposition down? He's always like, well, sometimes you have to credit the opposition. And as a fan, when you hear that, it's very frustrating because it's like, well, no, that's your job.

42:26unknown host: But I don't really know what the answer is, to be honest. There are ways that Arsenal can break down low blocks that they didn't have available to them last night or maybe didn't do effectively enough last night. I also think the fact that it's a European tie and there's so much at stake, maybe the vibe is go out there, don't take too many unnecessary risks, don't do anything too stupid. Because again, going back to that Porto tie, when in the first leg they did concede, that was because they tried to attack quickly. Martin only gives it away in the last minute. It was Galeno scores a really fantastic goal.

42:59unknown host: So you can sometimes get stung in these European ties when you're not paying attention. So maybe that's it. Maybe it's a slight risk aversion, which seems to be kind of a tenet of Mikel Arteta's play in this season, the past couple of seasons. But yeah, I don't have a solid answer, unfortunately. I'm sorry.

43:16Kaya Kaynak: I mean, you mentioned Timber, and he was certainly somebody that I noticed last night. And, you know, not for the first time this season, And Arsenal have players in areas of the pitch where ideally you would want an attacking player or a creative player, a creative midfielder, something like that. And again, it's, you know, in part due to or to try and give Saka space on the right. Incappier was pushing forward. At times you have Timber and Incappier sort of ahead of Declan Rice and Martin Zubimendi. but what you've essentially got are two fullbacks in like number eight or number 10 positions which is a lot to ask of them because you know fullbacks aren't just defenders right that's not the right way of framing what they do and how they contribute we can all think of fullbacks who have contributed a lot to teams in an attacking way i don't have the stats but typically they tend to do it from the wider areas in overlapping terms.

44:22Kaya Kaynak: That's kind of how they do it. And we're doing it in a way where, you know, if it's not William Saliba who's got the ball at the edge of the box where you want Martin Odegaard to be, it's Jurian Timber in the inside right position where you want, with all due respect to him, somebody with better attacking instincts. I think Timber is a brilliant player and a fantastic defender, but I do get a little bit frustrated when I see him in those positions because, listen, he can score goals. We've seen them score goals, but I think to me it's slightly counterintuitive to have a defender in that area of the pitch.

44:55Kaya Kaynak: And that's the way we're thinking of doing things. I think it's James Benj. It is James Benj who put on Blue Sky. Shurian Timber has had as many penalty box touches as any player on the pitch tonight. Arsenal have been doing it all season long. Arsenal's fullback, Timber, averages more box touches than Odegaard, Rice, Marino, and Eze. Which, you know, however you want to try and explain it or rationalize it, whatever the tactical decision that is being made for that to occur, not just once or twice, but throughout this season, it still just doesn't feel right. if you're a team, which I think Arsenal are, who are tremendously effective, really, really hard to beat, capable of grinding out results, but not necessarily the most fluid attacking team that any of us have ever seen, right?

45:58Kaya Kaynak: So I think those things go kind of hand in hand, right? Yeah, I'm going to try and, I know you just said,

46:06unknown host: You don't want to hear the tactical explanation. No, no, I want to hear it.

46:10Kaya Kaynak: I want to hear it, but I'm just sort of saying from, and listen, I could sit here and eat a big slice of humble pie afterwards if you're going to, you know, give me the enlightenment, if that's the right way of putting it. But what I mean is, you know, when I, listen, when you try and understand the game, sometimes you just get a feeling from a game or feeling from a setup. And my feeling is that I just see when you have fullbacks in those positions and you also see your team struggle to create and to make chances, I see a connection there.

46:46unknown host: Yeah, I agree. And it annoys me too. So I watched PSG Chelsea last night instead of City Real for the most part. But it was a really interesting game. And I thought the most interesting player on the pitch, or one of the most interesting players on the pitch, was Hakimi, the PSG right-back. And it's an interesting comparison between Timber and Hakimi because I think they take up a lot of the same positions. So PSG, obviously, the way they kind of killed Arsenal last season and the way they won the Champions League was by having players rotate every single position. So that means when the game is super man-to-man, it's really hard to know who's picking up who.

47:20unknown host: And Hakimi gets free all the time because his movement is so intelligent and he's really good in the final third. I think Arsenal have a similar thing going on when they're rotating to kind of pull those low blocks out of position and kind of force the man-to-man structures all over the place. And that's why I think Timber ends up in those positions so much because I think unlike Hakimi, whose movement is so good, I think with Timber, it's a case of, well, just let him go. What harm can he really do? And for the most part, it's limited. And I think we all love Yuri and Timber, but I don't think any of us would say, his offensive strength outweighs his defensive strength.

47:57unknown host: I think he's a fantastic defender. I think he's probably the best defensive fullback in the world. And I think he's essentially evolved from, you know, it's that old Gary Neville quote, isn't it? Like, no one wants to be a fullback. They're either a failed centre-back or a failed winger. I'd say Timber's more from the centre-back model, though obviously fullbacks have become way more important now. So I think the way Arsenal play kind of lends itself to the spare man being someone who you wouldn't necessarily expect to be in that position. And I remember a couple of years ago in the Bayern Munich game where that kind of intelligent rotation in the one where Arsenal drew 2-2 at home and Ben White had a really good chance in the first few minutes in Arsenal.

48:38unknown host: I think it would have put Arsenal 2-0 up at that point. And that's the kind of stuff that happens with Timber all the time. I think Arsenal's problem is they don't have the fullbacks to be able to maybe make that more of a threat. I don't know who that player out there is. I saw those links to Tina Liveramento that Sam Dean put out. I would question if he's that kind of guy. So I think there's interesting elements to it. But I like you. I find it frustrating when Urien Timber's running in on goal in the last minute against Brentford, or Urien Timber's the guy who's getting into the box against Leverkusen with a chance to shoot, but instead puts in a terrible cross.

49:16unknown host: That's not his forte. And Nicola Teta did an interview where he said one of the biggest things I've learned as a manager is, am I asking players to do what they're capable of or what they're incapable of? And I think with Timber, to an extent, he's kind of asking him to do something he's not. Like, he's doing it and he's doing a good job and he's finding space in the final third. So from that perspective, he's doing it correctly and he's executing the plan, but he's not a final third killer. And I don't think that's an issue. I don't want him to be. I'm fine with him not being that. I, like you, though, have issues when he's being asked to be the final third killer and asked to be the guy who makes the difference in the final third because he can't do it.

49:56unknown host: And that's an issue. I guess to an extent, you also have to credit opposition for how well they're able to shut down Bakayosaka and other Arsenal attacking players. But yeah, I find it very frustrating as well when I see Jürgen Timbrun, what is essentially the centre-four position where we used to see Bakayosaka running into quite a lot, I think, in the season where you're scoring 20-odd goals. And we don't see it as much anymore. and that for me is, yeah, like you say, frustrating. Even if I can understand it, I still find it frustrating.

50:22Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, yeah. And I think maybe the way the midfield has slightly shifted now with Rice and Zubi Mendy playing more as a pair rather than the sort of twin eights, if you like, and there's not quite that pressure in the final third. Listen, I love Timber. I think he's brilliant. But like you, I think he is being asked to do things that he's not always capable of doing or providing that kind of threat in the final third that we need in games like this because the player who receives the ball in that position is if there's somebody who can beat a man or can get a shot off or get a good cross in, you know, capable of unlocking a game.

51:01Kaya Kaynak: And I don't mean that to be criticism of Timber himself, more criticism of the fact that he's there, that tactic, you know. So I don't know whether anything can change between now and the end of the season, but I think it is something that Mikel Arteta does need to think about and needs to look at. Can we broaden it out a little bit? Because, look, nobody likes it when Arsenal don't win, but a 1-1 draw away from home in the Champions League against a team who, by the way, they said on commentary last night, has a second-best defensive record, home defensive record in the Bundesliga, by the way.

51:38Kaya Kaynak: So no mugs. Maybe not the most storied opposition, but a 1-1 draw, not the worst. We have a home leg next Tuesday in which hopefully we can do the business and progress in this competition. But as an overall week for Premier League clubs in Europe, it has been really quite difficult. You know, Spurs, I said in my little intro before we started talking, not really a Champions League level team, but they gave us a lot to laugh about. But Manchester City, like hammered by Real Madrid, and it could have been more easily. Chelsea 5-2, let in five goals against PSG. Liverpool beaten away at Galatasaray, only 1-0.

52:25Kaya Kaynak: You know, is there something for the Premier League to think about here? Is that something that Premier League teams need to worry about? I mean, it's sort of Turkey's voting for Christmas, asking for a smaller Premier League and taking some of the burden off. But it does feel like a side like Bayern, for example, or a side like PSG, even leaving aside the number of games and the fact that there might be a winter break, which gives you a bit of a rest, a bit of chance to recuperate when English teams are playing cup competitions all over the place and it's the festive schedule, etc., etc. that the overall competitiveness of the Premier League, the tactical difficulty, the organizational difficulty, the physical difficulty, like those teams are not tested in the same way week in, week out in La Liga, in Ligue 1, in the Bundesliga, the same way that English clubs are tested in the Premier League.

53:24unknown host: Yeah, the Premier League is really interesting And we've spoken quite a lot about this on, to give it a little plug, the TIFO football podcast that producer Steve promised, I promised him I'd give it a plug. So I'm trying to work it in there. Very good. Well done.

53:38Kaya Kaynak: It's a good show as well. So people should go and listen.

53:40unknown host: Thank you. Appreciate that, Andrew. But we've spoken a lot about how there's a, this is a John McKenzie phrase, but the shifting tactical meta, which is sort of the narrative and the way that people are approaching the game. And the Premier League's changed massively in the past couple of seasons in the sense that it's Superman to man. And you look at the players that Man City have signed recently, like Semenyo. Last night against Real Madrid, they played three wingers in Semenyo, Savinho and Doku, which has drawn a lot of criticism. But I think the reason that Guardiola started going towards those kind of players is because the Premier League is so much more man-to-man now.

54:18unknown host: And the way you kind of, one way of dealing with those man-to-man structures is by being explosive and being one-to-one specialists and being able to sprint away from people. and I think the Premier League is so demanding in the sense that it's really hard to do that every three days. So I hate to bring up a Spurs player on this podcast, but I listened to Gareth Bale on the Stick to Football podcast and the most interesting thing he said to me was about how he was obviously a really explosive player, but being an explosive player meant that he suffered really bad doms in the two, three days after a game.

54:50unknown host: And that makes it super hard. And he had injuries later in his career and struggled and he had back problems, But it makes it super hard to repeat that level of performance across a season. And I looked into the numbers and my colleague Mark Carey did a really interesting piece on The Athletic about how the league is going towards those more sprinty kind of players who can beat you over a few yards and create that little bit of space we spoke about earlier that's important to break down low blocks. and Arsenal's most explosive player in that sense, who goes from sort of a standing start to a sprint, is Martin Odegaard.

55:26unknown host: He does it more often than most players, which I found really interesting. And in the middle third, it's Martin Zubemendy. And those kind of players have struggled, I think, with fatigue this season as the season's gone on. Odegaard's obviously had injuries, but Zubemendy, I think we can all agree, looks absolutely shattered even after a week off, having not played at all against Mansfield. I think he still looks like he's kind of, his legs are made of lead and I think he's finding that really difficult. Other leagues don't have that issue because teams aren't as good. Teams don't go as man-to-man.

55:54unknown host: I know it's a cliche, but you don't get an easy game and we're talking about Everton at the weekend. That's going to be a really tough game and I don't think anyone expects it to be an easy game and I don't think anyone expects Mikel Arteta to make wholesale changes in the way that Real Madrid probably could get away with or Barcelona probably could get away with or Bayern Munich could get away with. And PSG didn't even have a game in the build-up to their match with Chelsea. I think it was Nantes they were supposed to play, agreed to basically be like, nah, we'll just play later in the season, don't worry about it.

56:22Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, I mean, that's so accommodating, isn't it? I mean, listen, it's almost unique in that your inclination would be like, go fuck yourselves, PSG, you know? You've all the financial advantage anyway. You shouldn't need any more help, but certainly it is a factor.

56:40unknown host: Yeah, definitely. And I think the ability to repeat those performances every three days is something that I think every Premier League team is struggling with this season. If you look at every single Premier League team in the games, even Newcastle, who I think have played more than any other Premier League team, they seem to struggle. And their whole game is built on those explosive players like Gordon, like Barnes, like Elanga in the final third. They're really struggling. They look tired. Every Premier League team looks tired and we're only in sort of early March. I think that's going to be an issue and I think that's going to be a problem for them.

57:08unknown host: And I think it kind of came to a head last night. Don't get me wrong, I still think the Premier League is the strongest league and I think it's by far the most entertaining. But if you look at the fact that a team like Wolves can take points off Arsenal and Liverpool in the space of two weeks, I think that suggests to you that there aren't easy games in the way there are in other leagues. So I kind of think, like, what are solutions for that? And France did something interesting a few years ago where they got rid of their equivalent of the League Cup. I think that would be interesting for English football to do.

57:34unknown host: I don't think anyone would particularly miss the League Cup if it were to go. You know, even saying this as a team is in the final of it and I'll enjoy it if Arsenal win it, don't get me wrong. But I think, you know, you have to kind of find ways of reducing the calendar somehow, or you have to look at ways of having more subs being able to come onto the pitch, which to be honest, as a spectacle, I think is a terrible idea. I don't think that would be good. Bigger squads, bigger benches, all that kind of stuff. I think that's kind of where the English game is going because it's so difficult to repeat those performances, like I've said a few times now, across games every couple of days.

58:06unknown host: And you're seeing it in players that Arsenal have who are nowhere near the levels they were in the earlier parts of the season. And it's a real frustrating thing. And it's something that people don't talk about enough when they say, oh, the Premier League this season is the worst ever. It's so much worse. It used to be so much better back in the day. Back in the day, players weren't having to play this kind of athletic, energetic football every couple of days. It just wasn't the case, maybe once or twice a week max. And yeah, I think that's a really big, important factor in the way that English teams are struggling generally across Europe and I'm kind of the product of the Premier League this season.

58:41unknown host: There's just a bit too much football. And I think it's a conversation that, to be honest, a lot of us have all seen coming for a while. It's just now it's coming to a head that we're kind of dealing with it. But I don't think people are maybe joining the dots in the way they should. I think a lot of Arsenal people are in the sense they're seeing a team that's fatigued and struggling to perform to the levels they were earlier in the season. But yeah, I think it's going to be a problem for Arsenal going forward for the rest of the season because I don't see how it massively changes. I just hope they can kind of continue to grind out these results and do something that we're all pretty hopeful will happen in May

59:15Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, listen, when they add more games to the Champions League calendar when there are more internationals when there are pointless club competitions that nobody asked for that are invented by one of the world's most corrupt organisations putting demands on players something has got to give there is only so much football that can be played I just can't see a world in which, let's say, the Premier League adopts, you know, an 18-team league like in Germany or like in France because there's just too much money. That's, I don't know how many games someone can work out. The most extra of like 40 games or whatever it is, you know, that's an extra 40 games that go on to the broadcast revenue and the advertising revenue and all that.

1:00:01Kaya Kaynak: So there's no way of that. But I'm sort of, I would be all right with the League Cup being scrapped, but then there'll be people who say, well, it's a chance for lower league clubs and, you know, the football pyramid, et cetera, et cetera. And this is a first world problem. It's only a problem for the top six clubs and they're rich enough anyway. Build a bigger squad, use your squads better, et cetera. I get it. But I also think on a very basic level, there is a need to sort of try and recognize that the demands on players are kind of off the charts at this moment in time. And I say that heading towards an interlull during which we're all going to be keeping everything crossed.

1:00:37Kaya Kaynak: I mean, just before we go, there was a stat here from Prashant on Blue Sky. It's at prashant.bsky.social who said between January the 11th, which was Portsmouth away in yesterday, Arsenal played 17 games, which is a lot in and of itself. 11 of those games were away from home. and now there's a run of games which we'll see Arsenal at home a bit more often. I don't mean to say that that was or is the fundamental reason for Arsenal not playing as well as they can in certain games, but certainly when you're away a lot, it is a bit more taxing, isn't it, than having a few home games and hopefully with the roar of the crowd and all the support and the energy that that might create, a few home fixtures could re-energise some of those legs.

1:01:30unknown host: Yeah, and I think something that people have spoken about a little bit, between now and the end of the season in the Premier League, I think Arsenal only have to leave London to play Manchester City away. That's going to be big. And a lot of the things we're talking about, doms and muscle soreness and all that stuff, travel does obviously play a factor in it, and it fatigues you whether you like it to or not. And even if you're on a private jet with, I'm sure, Massa's on the plane kind of looking after you and you've got all the recovery and the cryo chambers and all that stuff, it's still going to make a huge impact.

1:01:58unknown host: And yeah, probably those home fixtures will be good for Arsenal. Arsenal's record at home has been very good this season. They've lost once in a game they probably shouldn't have lost all season at home. So I'd love to see more home games. I think it's going to be good for Arsenal team now at the end of the season. I think it's interesting because obviously across multiple fronts, where the rotation comes and how Mikel Arteta looks to balance it because these next three games kind of feel like they have the potential to define the season in a sense, and they're sort of two home games and one at Wembley, which is not very far away.

1:02:31unknown host: I think the rotation is going to be huge, how Mikel Arteta uses his squad, because I think we obviously all think... I don't know. I'd be interested to know what you think, whether you think that the Leverkusen second leg is more important than the Carabao Cup final. I don't know. But I think that they're both massively important games. and I just think he'll probably make changes on Saturday. How he kind of goes about doing that is fascinating to me.

1:02:56Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, no, I agree. It's one of those where you could make a good case for either, I suppose. My gut feeling is that Arsenal just sort of lack the elite attacking talent you need to win the Champions League. so while I never want Arsenal to lose a game I kind of feel like progression in the Champions League and I could be wrong and I hope I am and if Arsenal go all the way in the Champions League and win it there'd be nobody more happy, right? But I do wonder if just winning that trophy after so many years would be more beneficial than Champions League progress and I know it's not that binary, right?

1:03:37Kaya Kaynak: I know it doesn't work like that every game is important on its own merits but I just look around at some of the other teams in Europe and I look at what they can do in the final third and how they do it. And I don't really see that with us. And generally speaking, I think it is a team who has that, who goes on to win the Champions League because so often it's the thing that separates, you know, a good team from a great team or a win in a final from defeat in a final. So I don't know. Look, I can't sort of say, you know what, but it'd be better if Arsenal went out against Bayer Leverkusen. I don't think losing a game before we play a cup final is good preparation, right?

1:04:16Kaya Kaynak: So it is what it is. We're just going to have to keep doing it and keep grinding, hopefully on Tuesday and more pertinently Saturday against Everton. We better leave it there, though. Kai, I've taken up too much of your time. Thank you so much, as always. Great to chat.

1:04:30unknown host: No, at all. Thank you, Andrew.

1:04:35Kaya Kaynak: Thank you very much indeed to Kaya. You can find him in all the usual places and, of course, part of the TIFO football podcast, which you can get on The Athletic or in all the usual podcast places. So, look, plenty to think about and plenty to consider from an Arsenal perspective, a 1-1 draw, not what we wanted, but certainly not as bad as Man City, certainly not as bad as Chelsea, not as bad as Liverpool, and definitely 100 % not as bad as Tottenham, who gave us the laugh of a lifetime the other night against Atletico Madrid, which brings me to our competition from last week. It's a chance to win one of those brilliant St.

1:05:12Kaya Kaynak: Totteringham's Day prints slash posters from Arsenal supporting artist Mark Bullen. All you had to do was send an email to competition at arseblog.com laughing at Spurs. There was just so much laughing. There were ha-has and ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-has and lols and laugh my fucking arses off and emojis and crying laughing, all of it. Everyone was laughing at Spurs. and why not? That is essentially what they're there for. That is why they exist in the world for us to laugh at them. The random number generators pulled out three winners. We had three different prizes to give away. What we had was a medium-sized print.

1:05:52Kaya Kaynak: That goes to Alexis Stewart. We had a small print, both of those signed, by the way. That one goes to Craig Daly, and we have a poster to give away. That one goes to Chris Lord. So congratulations to you guys. I will be in touch with you via email and we'll get your details and we'll get those prizes sent out. To everybody else, thank you for entering. Thank you for being part of it. And don't forget that if you'd like to get one of these prints or posters, Mark has very kindly given us a 15 % discount code, which you can use between now and the end of the season. You'll find the link to Mark's site through which you can buy the prints in the show notes.

1:06:37Kaya Kaynak: But use the code SPURZY, all capital letters, SPURZY, and you'll get 15 % off your purchase there. So once again, thanks for entering and thanks to Mark for providing those great prizes. And I suppose we have to say thank you to Spurs for being just comedically bad.

1:06:53unknown host: That's his job.

1:06:55Kaya Kaynak: Anyway, there will be more to say about our game against Everton on Saturday evening tomorrow. We'll talk about that in our Patreon preview podcast. It's what we do for every Premier League game and lots of other games besides. You can join us at patreon.com forward slash arseblog to get on board with that and everything that we do on Patreon as well as supporting everything that we do on arseblog as well. We'll have that for you tomorrow afternoon. For now, though, folks, thank you so much as always for being here and for listening, for downloading, subscribing. And I know I say it at the start where I hope that you're all well.

1:07:29Kaya Kaynak: But in this crazy world that we live in, it's not always easy to be well with everything that's going on. So I really do hope that is the case for you and yours, wherever you are. Stay safe, look after each other, and we will catch you on the next one. Until then, cheers. Bye-bye.

1:08:03I'm out.