Episode 869 - The Box

0:00Do you want your soccer analysis more direct than an Arsenal set piece? Join me, Max Rushton and the Guardian's expert soccer journalist for the latest action and news from the Premier League to the Champions League and all the way to the World Cup. We'll have chat more out of the box than a Dominic Sobber's live free kick, more panellists than Chelsea have players and unlike VAR, we know where to draw the line. For fine margins, fun debates and full-blooded tackles, Football Weekly, listen wherever you get your podcasts and watch the full episodes on YouTube.

0:51Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? I hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. We're now in an interlull, the final interlull of the season, following a cup final defeat. So I think it's fair to say it's not the most interesting, exciting week of the season so far. I don't know how much you're still stewing on Sunday and Wembley and what happened against Manchester City, how much that has impacted how you view what remains of this season. Can you, I don't know, successfully compartmentalize that game at Wembley, the Carabao Cup final, put it into a little box and say, that was not good, but it remains contained inside this box.

1:41And I'm going to fasten this box securely and I'm going to bring it to the ocean and weigh it down and drop that box into the deepest part of the ocean from where it ought to never, ever return. It's gone, forgotten, that's it. Consigned to the depths where only weird, strange creatures exist. You know, squids that are 700 feet long and scary-looking fish who've got illuminous tongues and all that kind of shit. That's where that game belongs. but maybe the box is still there. Maybe the box is sitting on your sitting room table. Every time you pass by, you're looking at the box going, I don't like this box and I don't like what's in the box.

2:26And then maybe there's a brief moment where you forget all about it and then you look at the sitting room table and you go, what's that box? What's in the box? And it's not Gwyneth Paltrow's head. It's the Carabao Cup final. And look, I can't tell anyone what to do. This is your box. We all have our own boxes. you do with your box as you will my box it's on the way to the bottom of the ocean i think there's still so much to play for still so much that we can achieve as disappointing and frustrating as sunday was there's no other option but to chalk it down to a painful experience and then get on with the rest of what we have to get on with which of course won't be until next week because there are international games this week friendlies there are world cup qualifiers as well, some Arsenal players in action there.

3:15Primarily, though, I'm just hoping everybody who goes away comes back healthy. After that, we assess things, we take stock, we see where we are, and then what we have to do is pretty clear. There's no lack of clarity about what needs to happen when we get back. It's play better, win a load of games, and hopefully lift some trophies. What we don't want are more boxes to put things in, either on the sitting room table, the bottom of the sea, into a fucking volcano or anywhere else. I think that's fair, right? So look, let's get on with today's show. And we'll talk broadly about where we are, about Sunday a little bit, about what we do now, where we go now, and some players, I think, who might have a role to play between now and the end of the season, despite being, for various reasons, a little bit peripheral over the course of this season.

4:05So with me to do that, I'm delighted to welcome back somebody who hasn't been on the show for quite a while, but you'll hear him every week on the Arsenal Vision podcast. It's Clive Palmer. Clive, good morning. How are you? Hello, hello. Not bad. Not bad. These happy times, Andrew. Okay. Well, we're going there straight away. Fair enough. Well, listen, you know, I was going to say, you know, a few days have passed, obviously, since the Carabao Cup final at Wembley. We've seen a few final defeats in our time. How does this one sort of rank in terms of how you've dealt with it or how quickly it's passed or how much you're still stewing on it?

4:44Of course, it takes into account the competition itself, which is now that it's gone, we can go back to saying it was the fourth priority this season, which I think it was until you got to the final. Then it becomes your first priority. But we do have to move on. But how are you feeling after Sunday? It hurt this one, Andrew. I don't know why. It sort of hurt. I think it's for me. Oh, I do know why. It's for many. It reminded us there are other good teams out there. I think maybe we were a bit in our arsehole tunnel and we maybe were just starting to think, yeah, we've got this, we've got this, we've got this.

5:19And then we realised actually that Man City lot sort of know how to do finals and know how to come up with new tactical ideas. And it maybe shook us a little bit. And I think the tactical exposure side of things, it's almost like you're walking down the road where your fly's undone you know i mean we've been a bit exposed a little bit and we didn't adapt you know we didn't adapt that's very much not like us when i look at this team mate i just think well you know what we may not be super exciting but we're technically really smart and when this team does that we do another thing and we adapt and we change and we make our change off the bench and our bench numbers are great But on this day, we sort of ran out of ideas.

6:02And that concerned me. And it's like the whole analysis world is just telling us how bad we were on the day, tactically. And that's sort of a slight new feeling for me a little bit this season. I mean, how much do you put that down to the players that we didn't have available to us? You know, and listen, we had the discussion on the RS Cast Extra and you guys talked about it on the Arcel Vision podcast as well, the technical absences that we had, the players who can do things with the ball at their feet, whether it's David Raya versus Kepa, whether it's Martin Odegaard or Eberreche, he has a not Kai Havertz who has a role to play and who plays that position very differently from either of those two players.

6:53you know is that a major major factor or you know when you look back at it with the cold light of day do you say okay city were the better side in the first 15 minutes of that second half we made a big mistake and sort of still trying to come to terms with that big mistake we switched off and let them score a second that was easily preventable as well you know after which you know they didn't have to come after us they could just sort of sit and say come on have a go and and we'll deal with you. But, you know, I fully accept City were the better team on the day and deserved to win that game. I don't think it was sort of a pasting in any way, but it's also one where we didn't really land any significant blows on them either.

7:36Yeah, it's sort of, the game started and we started okay and the Ocurs was getting down the sides and I'm thinking, yeah, we got these. You know, this is normal stuff. Pinned them back. and have our chance. We miss our chance. You know, and I was in the ground, Andrew, but I was quite low down. So I didn't have the high tactical camera view, you know, so I'm quite low down. So I see the chance miss. It's like, okay, we'll be all right. We made a chance. We'll get the other one. We'll go from there. Then the game flattened out. And at halftime, I thought we'll be fine. Honestly, we'll be fine. We'll just adjust to anything.

8:10I could see they were sort of blocking the middle, but I couldn't see how they were doing it. and come out second half get a corner here we go you know and let's go and then it clears and then Kepa gets booked and that moment for me was sort of significant in my little mind and after that they kept the ball and we struggled and normally we see off teams that come for us we ride it out but we didn't this time made the mistake and they conceded I think your point about the players available is a really good one because we can all pick another team, can't we? When that game, that whistle ends. And Eze was playing and Califuri was playing and maybe Timber was playing and suddenly you've got ball carriers in the middle of the pitch and you're realising that Marine Odegaard not being in that number 10 position, we missed them.

9:01We're all thinking maybe Keiko played centre-forward and maybe not all of us, but you know, we want people with personality on the pitch to really turn up at Wembley and show that we can look after the ball. And we just didn't have that on the day. And I thought City played really well against the players that we had. Was that another aspect of it, that there's been this idea that City are not what they were? And this, to me anyway, this felt like, oh, that's Man City right there. Do you know what I mean? Like that second half of that first period of the second half where they took the ball, took the kickoff, kept the ball, and we couldn't get near it for 15, 20 minutes.

9:40That, you know, that was like a version of Manchester City that I think maybe some people thought was gone. And it's still there, not maybe with the consistency or the regularity that they've had in the past, which is good, obviously. But I think it was a reminder that, you know, there's still a team there and there's still talent in that side. Yeah, they're a proud team. They're a proud club. And wherever we think of them, they've won a few things in the last decade. you know and so and so then they feel comfortable this competition i often feel this league cup competition is just not for me you know we we get we get good luck in the fa cup and you know but in this competition bad things happen even when we win it we break bones you know bad things happen in this competition and so it did dawn on me really quickly that you know the city fans are saying that this is their best performance this season easily and they wanted to let people know that all this talk of quadruple after and changing of the guard hey hey not just yet not just yet look what we can do and um i must admit it's this defeat all defeats hurt we've had four defeats in 50 games right so it's not the end of the world but this one sort of the way it happened i think did bother me a bit but also because of the tactical clarity and the issues that we had.

11:03I also think it could be something that could be really a boost and a bit of rocket fuel to what we got coming up. Cause if you all want to be where we want to be, mate, we're going to need more big games like this. We need to overcome them. I was going to ask you because like the, the reaction when you lose a game like this, the public reaction anyway, from a manager, from players, the club messaging, you know, regardless of whether it's Arsenal, Man City, whoever, it's always the same. It's always like, we're going to use this fuel for motivation, et cetera, et cetera. We all get it, you know, bring out Johan Juru afterwards and let him do those post-game interviews.

11:46Like, you know, they put him through a lot, that young man back in the day. He seemed to be doing it all the time. But, you know, that's what they have to say, right? it's not really an interesting point of discussion for us to say, can we use this as fuel motivation? Yeah, sure, they can. I think what we've seen from this Arsenal team is an ability this season to respond to disappointments and setbacks or defeats and react very well to them. You know, the Wolves game wasn't a defeat, but it felt like it. But then we went on and we won the North London Derby and we beat Chelsea and maybe I can't remember who else, But we went on this other Brighton.

12:24You go on this good run and it's sort of, okay, yeah, we can do it. But if you're a Mikel Arteta and you're looking at this game, above and beyond the like, we'll take this pain and we'll turn it into something positive. What is the thing, do you think, that over the course of this international break, he will actually tangibly be able to take from this game beyond those intangibles of like how much it hurts you and how much you want to do better next time. I do think it needs to be a level of when a team is playing you and doing well, how do you react to that? How many people do you want to push forward?

13:03I know it sounds really basic, but we had too many people behind the ball. As soon as you do that, you lose your territory and people push onto you. Who's got the bravery to take the ball, take the man and drive? And I suppose the player that really showed that towards the end of the game was Califuri. And as soon as he came on, he just thought, well, there you go. We need more of that. I don't care who it is we need more people like that who are prepared to take the moment take the ball and not worry about who we're playing and just go and I think a lot of the players would have walked off that pitch with regrets they probably covered more kilometres because they're just chasing the ball Man City got more and more confident and at some points we were embarrassed you know maybe that's too big of a word but I felt a bit humbled you know walking out of there I don't leave grounds early being up when was like Andrew I did leave early because you have to get out of there because I knew nothing was going to change.

13:54I'd never happened at the Emirates, but I thought, no, this is not good. And those feelings and those post-game feelings and celebrations, watching them celebrate, lift the trophy, that's got to hurt. You don't want to do that twice. And sometimes in life you get an opportunity and there's one in three weeks' time. And so if it was me, I'd remember the keeping ups. I'd remember how they were passing it around and laying. and I remember what the City fans were doing. I'd say, yeah, how do I want to be remembered? And then it isn't intangible. How do I want to be remembered? Do I want to be remembered like that?

14:27Or do I go to Yeti Ad and say, no, this is how it's going to work? So a lot more personality for me. For sure. I mean, listen, the keepy-ups thing, maybe what, who was it, Semenya said afterwards. I mean, it was sort of presented in a different way, wasn't it, Semenya, that he gave Incappier some running to do or something like that, a bit of a run around. It wasn't like going in, but it was just what he said. But I think those are things that you can look at. And you'll have seen the video, I'm sure, of Cherky, when he lay on the ground after getting clattered by Ben White, rightly getting clattered by Ben White.

15:03If that was you back in your heyday on the pitch, Ryan Cherky would be lying and he wouldn't be looking around grinning to see what was happening. But I do think, I mean, listen, I think it's actually quite funny. Cherokee sort of lying there going, what's happening here? He's getting his yellow card. You know, it's a bit of personality in a game which didn't have a great deal of that, right? But we know how Arteta uses those things. But I'm reminded as well of what he said after Bayer Leverkusen away when we didn't play well in Germany. Or to put it another way, Bayer Leverkusen didn't let us play well in Germany.

15:40And Arteta said after the game, we're going to have to look at this one and see what we can do differently to try and change the game when we go back to the Emirates. I think we had six shots away in Germany. We had 21 shots in the second game in the Emirates, and we won that game pretty well. So there are aspects of losing games that allow you the opportunity to learn. And I think his hands were tied, obviously, a little bit by absences and team selections and who we had and didn't have, or in what state we had certain people. maybe they're not 100 % fit. I don't think Havertz was 100 % fit or hasn't been yet.

16:19Trossard doesn't look 100 % fit either. Ben White, you know, a player who hasn't played a great deal, but certainly doesn't have the 90, 95, 100 minutes match fitness that you would expect or you would like from him because when he's, you know, when he's got that, he's a hell of a player, you know? So there's certain aspects of that. But certainly things for him to examine and things for him to look at that when he picks a team with hopefully more options available to and when we go to Man City, then there's a way of, like if City have looked at that and said, well, here's a little bit of a blueprint to play against Arsenal, there have got to be ways for Mikel Arteta to try and deal with that next time out if that's what they try and do again.

17:00Yeah, we've got solutions in the squad, haven't we? We've got a goalkeeper who can kick it for one. And catch it. And catch it. And catch it, he says, under breath. And yeah, we've got a couple of fullbacks there that are quite progressive and, you know, got big personalities. And Hinkapi's personality was neutered by the yellow card, so we lost him. And maybe that decision could have come a bit earlier in hindsight again. And we've also got potential of our captain coming back and offering something new, you know, and Kai have us a few more days fitness, you know, and Pekai and Declan getting some rest.

17:41There's some options there to come back in and really lift us, you know, and go again. And the way you're describing that, it actually made me feel a lot better. When I was going down Wembley Way and I saw the news of Timber and Eze being out, it bothered me. But then I'm thinking, oh, we've got Kai Evans. He's doing well. He'll be fine. You know, they play well together up front. He'll be fine. The way the game transpired, it wasn't fine. We didn't really adapt. And you're right, we missed those players. And now we're all naming a new team, right? and all the tricky ball players are in it. You know, I think the game is always different.

18:17Every game is different. I think, for me, the number one thing you've got to have when you're playing Man City, you've got to believe you belong on the pitch with them technically. You know, you've got to be thoughtful. You can't be timid. You've got to believe you can play in the areas you want to play and be much more aggressive. I don't want to be like them. I want to be like us, but a really good version of us. We weren't aggressive enough. We lost all the duels. The thing that bothered me, Andrew, they were better on the ball with us, but they were better off the ball than us. And that's a key part of who we are.

18:51So that's the bit we need to improve, number one. Make sure those seconds and those jewels don't lose the numbers game. Make sure you win those battles. Then we go from there, quick transition, and we run people back. We were not winning those jewels, and we were getting pushed back, and we had to cover the mileage, and we ran out of legs, and then just compressed into our box. Hmm. The technical players you mentioned, the ball carriers, people like Eze, you know, there's obviously a bad news story about him not just missing the final, but potentially could miss, you know, a month, maybe a little bit more, maybe a little bit less.

19:27We don't know for sure, but it certainly looks like the first three games after the international break will be too soon for him. Man City on the 19th of April, is that too soon? Is that a game you push him back for? You talked about Odegaard. I want to maybe discuss him a little bit and what we need from him on his return. I think he was close-ish to coming back ahead of the final. Certainly wasn't something Arteta ruled out. But again, that could be just talking publicly about who he's got to try and obscure whatever plans Pep Guardiola might put in place. But with Eza out, with Kai Havertz, you know, for me, capable of playing that role in certain games, but not in a game like against somebody like Man City or in a Champions League semifinal, for example.

20:19That's not where I want Kai Havertz on the pitch, in an Arsenal shirt. The importance of someone like Odegaard then becomes huge. I think maybe what we've seen over the last number of weeks is that I think there's a tendency to look at Odegaard and, well, there has been maybe a tendency to sort of paint him as a problem for Arsenal, which I don't agree with, I have to say. I think his form has not been great, but I also think he's had a season completely punctuated by injuries, two shoulder injuries, a knee injury, another knee injury now. it's unfortunate that these things are happening to him i get that people are frustrated i understand why people are frustrated when players are out injured but i think when you look at a team which struggles to control games or to influence games in the opposition final third if he's there he becomes the reason for it if he's not there nobody says well maybe the problem is a little bigger than that but yeah i do think there is a big onus on him fingers crossed you know he can come back and he can play a part and he can achieve a level of match fitness and sharpness that we need going into this run in but like we could be going into this uh period first period back where he is essentially the only creative midfield player available to michael arteta when he's got Declan Rice or Norgard or Zubimendi behind, you know, there's a huge responsibility on Martin Odegaard here, isn't there?

21:54There is. And, you know, I was one of those people, not to say called him a problem, but given a little bit of stick early in the season. But that was a time when we were in a different phase of the season. You have your sunny August, you have your pre-Christmas period, and when you need to show in a different way. And there was a bit of a reversion for me back to what we used to be. and we dropped a few points and and i felt then okay he was coming back from injury but never quite in rhythm but now that we're in the crunch time of the season we're the time of the season when football changes again and everything becomes really really critical and you need people who are not scared not scared of the ball you know back in those days when he was getting a bit of a a bit of criticism supermendia and rice were full of beans taking over the team timber was full of beans.

22:43You take, you know, Zubman, he looks tired at the moment. Rice is okay, but he's not looking springy himself, you know, and Timber's struggling with injury. It's that right-hand half of the pitch. It needs some fresh impetus. Eze was almost forcing and changing the team to his identity, and we're just starting to get to see him and really deliver with big shots and big moments. Now he's gone. So the natural thing for us is to think, well, Odegaard's now available and we're going to revert. But we're going to expect him to just come back and be him. I don't think anyone's got a problem with really good Martin Odegaard.

23:21What we've seen this year has been a really stop-start, half-injured Martin Odegaard and that's the player that we really don't need to see. So we're all hoping he's getting some good work in now and he comes back in and he settles everybody down just by getting on the ball, lending it, moving it and just controlling the tempo of the game and allowing people to get into offensive shape. So, at this point in the season, you need your top boys, you need your men, you need your top payers to all be available and be in good form. And you look at our front four from the weekend, Zaka, he's okay, but you know, we've all seen better.

24:00Same for Kai, Jokerez, good 15 minutes at the start, then you couldn't find him with a torch, mate, after that, and Trossard was a bit flat and average as well. Did good in patches, but not really. None of them are at the top of their game at the moment. You know, so we need someone in that area, don't we, to come out and come and get good. Eze was that guy, just starting, and now we've lost him. So the onus is on us to find form. I don't want to say find confidence, find form, find rhythm, but find personality. Because, Andrew, Odegaard and Saka, mate, they've been the architects of this team.

24:37you know they have taken us from the floor to this moment right now this is the moment to get your medals this is the moment to worry about your game this is a moment to find your game because you've earned this you you carried us you know when we didn't have the support didn't have the squad this is the moment and i'm just hoping they recognize that and uh and deliver next few weeks yeah i mean i don't i didn't mean to say that it should be all on odegaard by the way but I just think that when you're the only player and it's sort of been a criticism that we've had you know I think last season as well he was basically after the injury he got on international duty he had to play all the time and there was a big onus on him because he was essentially the only player deemed ready at that point for that position because Ethan Warneri was needed on the right for quite a while but not seen as somebody who could play the Odegaard role.

25:32He had to play a lot. We didn't have a striker for most of the last part of last season. Havertz came back towards the end, but otherwise it was Mikel Moreno up front and creative players also need players around them to help them tick. So there is a wider responsibility. You mentioned Saka as well.

25:55Where's your head, mate? Where's your head? my head is worried i have to say my head is worried uh you know i feel like football fans i don't mean to sort of generalize but i i you're only as good as your last game right that's the old cliche you're only as good as your last game and i think that rings true for a lot of people you know that you can do all kinds of great stuff for any football club or any football team, you drop a stinker and there are going to be certain people who think you're the world's worst. So, you know, I'll say it again. I do think that Saka has been, probably because of the position he put himself in, because of the consistency of performances like our star player, he's been well below his best.

26:47So I understand that people want to, they want more from him. They want to get more out of him. They're disappointed with his end product this season you know absolutely I completely get that I do think we have to find a way to squeeze that just extra step out of him in key moments in games you know he did score the winner against Brighton a couple of weeks ago you know big goal in a game we we badly needed to win And so it's not like it's all been terrible, but I am worried because I know, I think whatever you think of Bakayosaka's form, whatever you think of Bakayosaka's form this season or the way he's playing, does anybody doubt that Bakayosaka, every time he wants to go on that pitch, wants to be decisive for Arsenal?

27:38you know if you do that's fine that's up to you I don't see that at all I see a guy and I we've all seen a young man who's grown into a sort of a mature footballer whose first thought every time he went out on that pitch was to do something good for the team and for Arsenal Football Club so you know I don't buy into all this well he's got a contract now and he doesn't care anymore and all that kind of crap. I just don't. I don't. But I also recognize that there is a need to get more out of him and not just him. You know, the front four you mentioned, Martinelli as well, Havertz as well, Jokeres as well, Jesus as well.

28:18You know, we've got to get more out of all of those players. And then at the same time, you know, this discussion about how we attack, could we be better? Could we be more fluent? We absolutely could. We scored over 100 goals this season. You know, there is a slight, I don't know how you would, a disconnection between the perception of Arsenal and the statistics of Arsenal, right? But the perception is kind of what we all see with our eyes and we saw Sunday and it didn't work and everything else. but you know it just feels I think as we go towards this point in the season that if we were to find a spark you know collectively and within a couple of individuals that our chances of of doing what we want to do are hugely increased right yeah we're real close right so we're looking for somebody aren't we we're looking for somebody I do think when Saka's your skipper and he's walking out first and he's got his new contract and maybe the the way you judge somebody.

29:18Maybe change it slightly for some. I've not got a goldfish memory. I remember what he's done. I remember what he still tries to do. And maybe I felt for a while now that I don't want to see our best player so close to the touchline all of the time because that's where the opposition would like to see him. And I do think if he can just either get more central access, get nearer the goal to get his shots off, people could say he can play inside. I've said it. So, you know, you can play inside on occasions. We've got two right-sided players in Nonny and Max Potentia can share a game. And we've got an attacking midfield deficit at the moment.

29:56So maybe there's an option there to do that. To try to spark him. You know when you're like the kid at work and you do a certain job and suddenly you become more senior and you want to be more central. You want to be more accountable for what's actually happening. You know, you don't want to be giving it to people who are not as good as you. You want to be in there, getting the ball from people and actually delivering. There's going to be a change in his career at some point where he's going to become truly central, not just a franchise player by wages, but truly central and take that responsibility.

30:27And I think he's getting close to being ready for that. Not every week. He's got the ability to play left, right and centre. But I do think we need to, I don't want to use the word platform, but maybe allow him to feel that responsibility, not just from a wide, extreme, wide, right position on occasions. And I do think there's more to come from him, but we've got to maybe give him that responsibility, allow him to feel his way back into his form. And for me, when you start getting goals and assists closer to the goal, I think that brings you back. But Andrew, the Everton game and the Leverkusen game, I didn't have any of these fears.

31:08I watched both of those games live and they were excellent from an attacking point of view. The balance was great. You said 21 shots against Leverkusen, 25 against Everton. I didn't have a problem. Honestly, I was so looking forward to Wembley. Hence why it hurt. And you saw a bit of a flat performance in people. So I'm sure they're going to react. Honestly, I'm positive they're going to react and I can't wait to see it. Is there, you know, when we're talking about Saka and talking about, you know, what we might do, you know, if Odegaard comes back, it's going to be too much to play him 90 minutes every game, right?

31:40Can't do 90, 90, 90, 90. Just not possible. You know, how difficult is it for a manager at this point in the season, at the business end of the season, to start to slightly reconfigure his team in a way? So if you play Saka Central, play him in that Odegaard 8 role, which I think, you know, now with the Rice-Zubamendi double pivot is more of a 10 than the Odegaard 8 and probably more of a 10 than I would like. I don't want to have that discussion again. I think there is a need for more emphasis on technical quality in this team, particularly in midfield. But that's a discussion for another day.

32:20We can only work with what we have right at this moment in time. But is there scope for a manager to try something different? To play Matuweke on the right a bit and play Saka Central or play Saka in that more central position, play down and on the right. I don't know how that selection works out. If you've got Matuweke who thinks, right, I'm next in line for that right wing thing. And then he's playing down and I don't know. I mean, Matuweke on the left hasn't really worked. It's not really where he's played a lot in his career. I know when we were over at the, was it the Wolves game? It was the Wolves game, the home game.

32:54And we were chatting after that and we were having a bit of a yap and you were sort of, I wonder about Matuweke on the left. Could he do something out there that none of the other guys do? And I can't remember which game he started him in on the left. Was it? Could have been Leverkusen, was it? Yeah, it may have been. He was all right, wasn't he? Yeah, it didn't really work. Like you're sort of looking for him to go outside and looking for him to sort of test the fullback and stretch the fullback and stretch the play a little bit. It didn't really work, but it is a short sample size. But with the stakes so high and with, let's say, Saka's track record from the right, is it a case that a manager like Michel Arteta will think, well, stick with what I know definitely has worked in the past and it can come back again?

33:44Or do I do this thing to bring everybody around and try and spark life into people by just shifting it up a little bit? Yeah, we're lucky when we come back for the national break. We've got Southampton. not disrespecting them, but it's an opportunity to bring Odegaard back in and say, just get on the ball, mate. Away from home, just get on it and start to feel the ball and move it and let's get people into this game. And just try to have a day where he dictates the game and finds his legs and gets off the pitch. So we have a lot to see that before we get to the biggies in Europe and against Man City.

34:19So that game's going to be quite important. And obviously the Bournemouth game is sitting there, very important in my mind, because that lays a table for the City game, which is, again, we want to make sure we're in the best place psychologically for that game. So, yeah, there's an opportunity there to have a look at people, you know. So, we didn't get a lot of luck last season with draws, you know, but this time, I think we've had a bit of luck with certain draws. We earned the Champions League draws, but the Cup draws have been quite good for us, giving us an opportunity to maybe have a bit of a relax.

34:50And so, yeah, this have happened again, although they're in great form, I think we need to make sure that we're getting people back for the big games that are coming up. So will we revert back to what we normally do? Odegaard in that little pocket, playing 1-2 to Saga, he misses the 1-2 bounce for sure. He's a 1-2 player. He misses that. No one else can do it as well as Odegaard. That's, you know, Eze maybe, but Odegaard and him have got something going on, haven't they? We've all seen before. Maybe you revert back to what's worked, you know, and you know it works and we make it happen. But the thing is with football, as soon as you do that and someone stops you, you want to change, don't you?

35:28Straight away. You know, and we play every three days and the laptop boys are there analysing us as they did. And they give us a bit of a tactical kicking, right? And then we all want to change again. So I think maybe just get back to showing who we are on the ball first, off the ball second, because that was a letdown. And then we can control most games. We didn't control this one and it's still bothering me. I've seen people talk about Myles Lewis-Gelly in midfield. Is that something you think is realistic? I don't want to ask you, is that something you think he can do? Because he obviously played a lot of his youth team football as a midfielder before breaking into the Arsenal team as a left back, basically.

36:11But at the same time, operating quite a lot in midfield because of the way that particular role was played. is there scope for Miles to not stake a claim but take some minutes off let's say Zubimendi who has looked a bit tired is going to go away with Spain we don't know how much he's going to play hopefully not very much but you never know Miles hasn't played much is going to be relatively fresh do you think that's something Mikel Arteta would be open to, maybe for a game like Southampton, as a bit of a test. My sort of gut feeling is that if he doesn't really trust Miles to play at left back, and there have been a couple of occasions maybe where he could have played, but it's decided on a different kind of profile of player in Incapier and Calafiori, who are, I think, physically more imposing than Miles in that position.

37:13I just wonder about sort of like that will he play Zinchenko in midfield thing and he never did you know well what do you think of that sort of Lewis Skelly midfield discussion I think it's really tough for him because he needs time so we can see him so we close our eyes and look at him driving through midfield while we try him in there but we haven't seen him in all phases of play and he was unlucky the one cup game he was due to play in midfield and I think Califiori got injured in the warm-up and he went back and I felt for him because that was his moment to show, you know, a home game, to really show what he can do and maybe establish yourself as somebody who can do more than one job in this squad to get a tracksuit.

37:52You need to be able to do a lot of things, don't you, being on the bench. So the big moment for him and it didn't quite happen. He needs rhythm. He needs time. If I look at him as a midfield player, we don't have anybody like him, really. Beckland's probably the closest in how he runs with the ball. Yeah. But Miles is very unique the way he receives it and bounces out of pressure, whether he's midfield or left back. But to do that, he needs to have real rhythm. And a lot of the time when the ball was coming to him, he was hesitating slightly and getting caught, making fouls, taking cards. That's not talent.

38:29That's just match rhythm. And he hasn't got that. So he needs time on the pitch to remind everybody of the work he's doing off the pitch to stay fit and stay ready. As soon as we see him, he becomes an option. and so the Southampton game, Andrew, I think is really important for him. I hope he gets time on the pitch. He's playing England 21s in the break, I believe. So hopefully he starts those games and gets on the pitch and reminds everybody what he can do. And straight away, we'll all be solutioning and getting him in the side, you know? But you need time on the pitch and we haven't had the opportunity to give him that because Hinkap, he's basically player of the month and Califiori's had an almost man-of-match performance from an Arsenal perspective in a cup final.

39:09So it's really hard for him at the moment but the only way you can change people's minds is by playing and so that under-21s game is important and Southampton equally so. Yeah, I mean the England situation is I think Bakayo Saka, Declan Rice don't play or don't join up until the second game which you know is a bit of common sense and I think we've seen that there have been some injury withdrawals we don't quite know how much this is like injuries of convenience the old Alex Ferguson way of doing things where players would all of a sudden drop out at the business end of the season when they were needed for their clubs I do think obviously Hazard and Timber couldn't play in the finals so they're injured Gabriel, Saliba there may be a bit of like seriously France, Brazil what do you need to know about these two guys at this point interesting one in Ben White though right that he's back in the in the England squad after a long absence.

40:11It's created a bit of talking, I guess. People are very, and I understand it, quite precious about their international teams. But Henry Winter, for example, saying, Ben White has to explain why he turned his back on England for three and a half years. I mean, I think we know why Ben White didn't play for England, and that was, what's his name? Steve Holland. Yeah. I mean, that was it. That was it. It was nothing to do with like, right, I hate England. I hate my country. I want to burn the flag, burn the shirt and burn it all down. I don't really see that as Ben White's style. When you're out of the squad, it's hard to get back into it, isn't it?

40:56And now there's an opportunity to get back into it. Do you think he owes England an explanation? I bet Henry would like the interview, wouldn't he? Yeah. team and uh hey look some journalists uh know what went on andrew you know who they are they know what went on exactly and have laid it out and some are very supportive of the old england major and his regime and shall we say and um you can tell who they are by the type of articles that coming out this week so um yeah i don't think he needs to explain the thing there are some there are some there are many stories out there but hey look there was a time when he was for me very close to Karl Walker as a right back, you know, and really deserves more time.

41:39I think at the moment, he's just coming into form. He's not in top form. You know, he's just coming into form. Physically, we can all see 75 minutes there, can't you, before we start to not see him, his normal self. But he's a great athlete when he's tipped up and he's really fit, you know. I've watched him many years and he looks like one of the best runners that we have. So we can easily see when he's not there, when he's not quite there. But I'm pleased for him that he's back. Whatever happened, I know, I sort of know what happened. Whatever happened, it's a new regime. We have an England manager right now that's done things with the squad this time that seem very sensible.

42:17Why has no one else done it before at this time of the year? Yeah. Very sensible. They're the numbers. These are players with the most minutes. I need to see them. Because they'll probably be all on the plane anyway. So let's just sit them down. And as club manager, thank you very much. you know I've got I've got my job to keep here you know and Nottingham Forest for example are trying to stay in the league and Elliot Anderson is critical to that you know so you can't mess about with this and I think he's done a fantastic job I think even England fans recognise this is a smart thing to do you know so so hopefully we all see the benefit so yes mate I think Ben get some time on the pitch let the journalists boo you you know they're creating an atmosphere for the fans to boo you.

43:03But in the end, he's definitely good enough to be in that squad. Maybe he can maybe, if injuries happen, he can sneak in the back door. Maybe. I mean, yeah, the World Cup obviously in the summer. But I think in the short term I'm looking at this as potentially very useful for Ben White to maybe get some, I know they're friendlies, but in inverted commas, competitive minutes because we don't really know what the situation with regards to Timber is. And I think for me it's been such a shame that since Timber arrived, it's almost been a kind of one or the other situation with him and Ben White. Whereas I think if he hadn't got that injury on the opening day of his first season, I think we would probably have just as good as Uri and Timber, but I think we'd also have a less,

44:02like there's a lot of miles under the hood for Ben White. You know, he had to play a lot and that obviously had an impact on him. So, you know, the idea that we could have maybe alternated in as much as that's an idealistic notion when it comes to Mikel Arteta and we think, oh, he's got two great players in each position. He's definitely going to move them. No, he's just going to play the same guys. But you know what I mean? I think it is a bit of a shame for both of them, you know, that it hasn't really happened in that regard. And maybe this international break is a way for Ben White to get himself back to full fitness.

44:33So we don't necessarily have to rush Uri and Timber back for, you know, an FA Cup game against Southampton. Take nothing for granted when you go away to Lisbon, of course. It's going to be a difficult away game in the Champions League. But then, you know, you're looking at Bournemouth, you're looking at Man City and you're going, right. can we get like two, three weeks of rest, recuperation, recharging the batteries into Jurian Timber? Because, you know, if you can do that, you've got such a great player there who has, I think, you know, been very, very good and very consistent this season, but like others, appears to have been a bit sort of fatigued and run down.

45:14Yeah, there's a couple of those, isn't there? There's another one. and we just seem to be able not to be able to not overplay one of the right backs so when we got Ben White back we overplayed him his hamstring went again you know and when he obviously played a lot of times when he wasn't quite fit and maybe suffered for that he suffered on our watch took his operations then came back took him a while to come back when he come back you're in timbers like elevated his game that makes it even harder for him to come back when he comes back he tries very hard, pulls his hamstring. It's not, you know, football's cruel sometimes, you know.

45:50He just needs time, consistent time. I think with those two, I do think Major has learned to rotate them when he can. I think there's, he's got better. I'm not saying he's perfect, Andrew, I can see your eyebrows raising. I think he's, he's got better. I think he will get better, but I do think, I think, I think he's 28 now, nearly 28. No, he's definitely 28. Yeah, this stage of your career now, you're thinking, okay, maybe, maybe I've been here, part of the under-21 squad, the under-22 squad that got bought in a few years ago, that started this whole project off. We've all got our second contract, so here we are.

46:29I'm here now at the crunch time. Let's see what happens at the end of this season. Let's make sure we deliver something and then have a look at my career thereafter and say, okay, who wants to look after me from a first team every week perspective when we go again? Yeah, he's 29 in October, Ben White. Until then, of course, he remains 28 because that is how it works. Extremely young, extremely young. Yeah, I know, I know. I'm a bit wistful, what can I say? Generally, do you think this is an interlull that has come at the right time for Arsenal? Absolutely. You know, absolutely. It's reset time, isn't it?

47:07It's watch the film, reset time, get away from the club. Don't put the tracksuit on, get away from the club. you know and um maybe be amongst your own countrymen and talk your language and just get away from the club for a while because the next six eight weeks are huge you know absolutely huge it's not about putting pressure on it's what everyone's worked for you know it's there the games are achievable we just need to go out and and go and grab them right so um i said no it's not the moment to be afraid it's the moment to really embrace and they've worked so hard for this it's not I don't want to think about what we all think about under our breaths you know if we don't we don't have the bravery I don't even think about it I just want to think about it positively that we can have the strength to go and do it I think what's happened when City drops some points at West Alley just opened the door up a little bit hence why the Everton game was critical the Bournemouth game is critical and I think then you go into the City game thinking they just become a moment when you have to beat the guy who is the guy.

48:12And I think this is the moment for me. But the key is to keep that gap. I don't care. We have to keep that gap and go from there. It's a huge weekend, that actually, isn't it? I've just looked because we're at home to Bournemouth at 12.30 on the Saturday. Man City are way at Chelsea at half four on the Sunday. I don't have a great deal of faith in anything Chelsea do. and like Chelsea versus Manchester City is one of those games where you're looking at it and going, I wish you could all lose in a really unfortunate and unpleasant way. But there is part of you that goes, well, there's kind of only one team I really, really, really want to lose that game.

48:57So, you know, it's a big weekend, that one, isn't it? It's potentially quite pivotal in the title race. It is interesting where Chelsea's focus is. because when they play us, they bring everything, don't they? They bring everything they've got when they play us and we've done well against them. But Chelsea against Man City, what will they do on that day? You know, at the moment, there's a lot of issues in that club teaching around consistency, the model, the manager. I don't know what they're going to bring. Yeah. I don't want to, I don't, do you trust them? I don't trust them. No, I don't trust them, but I also recognise that they have, you know, with Brentford and Everton right up their arses, they've got a, they've got a real job on their hands to secure the kind of European football that they want.

49:41So it's not that they don't have anything to play for. I just don't necessarily trust the messaging or the game plan or the tactics or the huddles or the way they respect the ball or don't respect the ball. I think they are wildly inconsistent for all kinds of reasons, to do with their scattergun recruitment and to do with the manager and to do with some of the players that they have, you know, on their day, capable of very good things, but also, yeah, you know, capable of not such good stuff as well. But they definitely have something to play for in that one, you know? They do. I think the game I'm looking at for Man City, Andrew, is Everton, funny enough.

50:21I think Everton have a lot to play for. David Moyes has got them going now. They're getting closer and closer to Europe. And I think their sort of game style can really affect them. And so I've got my eyes on that one, funny enough. Chelsea I just don't trust the key obviously is Bournemouth who beat Bournemouth and they've got to come second and it does have an impact it really does and you've got to go and do it so they're half four super Sunday in front of the nation I don't think you know thinking back now Chelsea don't want to be embarrassed you know so so yeah Everton is my little hope to take some points from them but for me Bournemouth who are good but not sparkling they've been they've been in better form this season if we can just take them I think that really might relieve a little bit of pressure in me anyway you know because we just continue on that road and path it's another win chalked off another win getting closer later in the season we've got teams like Fulham and Burnley we always do well at West Ham although they've got a lot to fight for but we go to West Ham we do quite well just at Bournemouth one do that and go from there yeah we want we want the West Ham game to mean nothing essentially you know you want to play Myles Lewis-Gelley in midfield and you know me and goal for that one because it's all done and dusted at that point and we can aid and abet West Ham doing what they need to do to send the other lot down.

51:43Well, listen, you know, hey, we're all kind of prioritizing what this season can deliver for us. There are things, you know, I wouldn't swap any bit of Arsenal success for Tottenham's relegation. But, you know, if they want to give me that icing on the cake, If the universe wants to give me that icing on the cake, I'd be more than happy to take it. Just finally, and sort of away from Arsenal a bit, I wanted to just ask you about Mo Salah because he's announced that he's leaving Liverpool. He's a player that's caused us some pain over the years. But now that he's going and we don't have to play him again, we can maybe be a bit magnanimous and a bit objective about him and his time at Liverpool.

52:28you know when he signed for them from Roma that was you know a good player decent player there was never really I don't think anyone who thought he was going to do what he did for Liverpool and I think he has become or you know over his time at Anfield one of the greatest Premier League players I think you know we've ever seen the the output the consistency of the output and everything else that he has done there. How do you reflect on a player, an opposition player, who's caused us some pain down the years, but sometimes a bit the way people talk about Thierry Henry now, now that he's sort of retired and they don't have to think about him, they don't have to face him anymore.

53:14Opposition fans can say, yeah, you know, he was fucking really good that guy. I have to grudgingly admit he was quite good, that Thierry Henry. There's sort of a sense of that with Salah as well, isn't there? Yeah, when you see him live. There was a game a couple of years ago, I think, the 2-2 draw.

53:33Do you want your soccer analysis more direct than an Arsenal set piece? Join me, Max Rushton, and the Guardian's expert soccer journalist for the latest action and news from the Premier League to the Champions League and all the way to the World Cup. We'll have chat more out of the box than a Dominic Sobber's live free kick, more panellists than Chelsea of players, and unlike VAR, we know where to draw the line. For fine margins, fun debates, and full-blooded tackles, Football Weekly, listen wherever you get your podcasts and watch the full episodes on YouTube. Tired of your car insurance rate going up even with a clean driving record?

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54:53dyeing your stomach acid before reaching your gut. But Just Thrive is the only probiotic clinically proven to arrive 100 % alive, which means real results, better digestion, less bloat, healthy immunity, improved sleep, and clear skin. Thousands have already made the switch because when your gut is healthy, everything gets better. So if you're ready to feel your best this year, visit justthrivehealth.com slash podcasts and use code POD20 for 20 % off your order. That's justthrivehealth.com slash podcasts. Be the best you with Just Thrive. And when Salah scored the equalizing goal and he just flashed it in the net, he didn't think for a second he wasn't going to go in, you know.

55:38And you have to doff your cap to a player like that. And you're right. Obviously, he was here with Chelsea, wasn't he? And when he went to Italy, we thought, well, he's not coming back. But he did. He didn't come back. but when he went to Liverpool that's an interesting bite you know but look what he's done I mean it's record breaking numbers isn't it and you think back to last season championship basically I think him and Van Dijk both played 38 league games I believe and they were both excellent you know and they literally won them the league there's sort of consistency and ever presence unbelievable numbers and I think it probably hurt them a bit going into this season where he's maybe positioning the squad maybe was taken down a notch or two and maybe a bit more fatigued and so yeah but looking back over his time that team with Wijnaldum, Henderson, Fabinho you know they're a really good team with Mane you know this is like this is top level football I remember watching those games Andrew and mate you were watching them from behind the city honestly yeah they could do anything they liked you know they could transition on you they could take the ball off you and we weren't as good as them for two, three years.

56:51We weren't as good, you know, until we finally got them. And he was at the heart of that. Fair play to him. Yeah, just looking at his numbers from last season in the Premier League, 29 goals and 18 assists. It's ridiculous. Yeah. Just ridiculous. What we give for somebody who had kind of half of that output right now going into this final few weeks of the season, hopefully we can elicit that from one or two or maybe three of those players combined. Combined. That's all we need. Combined. Just get together and do half of those numbers and we'll be in great shape. All right. Listen, we better leave it there.

57:24It's ever great to talk to you, Clive. We'll catch up again soon. Thank you very much.

57:32Thank you very much indeed to Clive. You can find him in all the usual social media places. And, of course, as part of the Arcel Vision podcast crew with Elliot, Paul and Tim as well. By the way, we have had a few questions, queries about the end of season live podcast event, which we do every year and have done every year for the last number of years. It's such good fun and great to see so many of you there. Right now, though, we are not in a position to be able to announce exactly when that is going to happen. What I can tell you is that we do at the weekend of the final home game of the season, whether that's the 38th game or the 37th game.

58:12In this particular season, it is the 37th league game. But there is potentially a different fixture that weekend, which is, of course, the FA Cup final. The FA Cup final, by the way, should be, in my opinion, after the league finishes. That's the way it ought to be. But, of course, the schedule being what it is and TV companies and all the wankers that make these decisions, it has been shifted forward over the last number of years. and I don't care for it, but it is what it is. So until such time as we have clarity on Arsenal's involvement or lack of involvement in that game, we can't announce anything with regards to the live show.

58:52But keep your eyes peeled on the usual platforms, here on the Arsecast, on arseblog.com. We'll give you all the information as and when we have it. As soon as we can announce something, we will announce it to you. In the meantime, hold tight. It will be that weekend. end, we just don't know what day. That's all I can tell you. So for now, just chill. Look over at that sitting room table. Is there a box there? Does the box need to be there? When it comes right down to it, fuck that box. That box is an absolute twat. So just get rid of it and have a nice weekend, which seems like a very good point for me to say thank you for listening.

59:28And thank you for being here and subscribing and downloading and all the rest, wherever you are in the world right now, wherever you're listening from. I hope you're okay. I hope you're safe. I hope you're well. We appreciate you. Supporting this football club can be a bit of a roller coaster. There's no two ways about it. Good times and bad times. We've had a bad week, but hopefully there are far better weeks to come. Right, I'll leave it there. You can join myself and James on Monday for an Arscast Extra. For now, take it easy, folks, and we will catch you on the next one. Until then, cheers.

1:00:00Bye-bye.

1:00:13I'm out.

1:00:34you

1:01:18Hello, my name is Steve Box. I'm the CEO of the Box Corporation. Boxes were invented by my grandfather, Alfred Box, back in 1900. It has come to our attention that on this particular podcast, you would have heard some box-related slander. And in the interest of balance, we've been given airtime to extol the virtues of boxes. Boxes are good. You can put stuff in them and use the box to carry that stuff around. For example, when you've been fired from your job and replaced by AI. Then, when the AI turns out to be as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike, you can use the same box to carry your stuff back into the office.

1:02:05Shortly after, you're out of work again because the company spent far too much on AI and is now bankrupt and can't pay its employees. But wait, as you come to terms with a new life living under a bridge, the box can become a shelter or indeed a mattress to protect you from lying on the hard ground. In short, we'd be nowhere without boxes. So next time you hear an Irishman on a podcast make thinly veiled jibes at the usefulness of a box, remember, the boxes are there for you always. And as my grandfather used to say, Never trust a bloody Irishman! He died roaring.

1:02:54Looking for soccer analysis more knowing than a Carlo Ancelotti eyebrow raise? With the World Cup around the corner, join me, Max Rushton, and the Guardian's expert soccer journalist on Football Weekly for all the latest soccer action and news throughout the week. We'll cover more ground than Drew Bellingham in a Champions League final with conversations sharper than an Arsenal set-piece. For fine margins, fun debates and full-blooded tackles, Football Weekly. Listen wherever you get your podcasts and watch the full episodes on YouTube.