Episode 875 - Communion

0:24Sam Dean: Olivea. Jokeres, Oblak came to meet him, now has to retreat quickly

0:33James A. McNicholas: it's Leandro Trossard, shoot or pass? He shoots! and Saka is there to turn in the loose ball

0:44James A. McNicholas: Arsenal's star boy reaches for the stars

0:48Sam Dean: and Arsenal take a giant stride towards the Champions League final Nelson Fivas and a couple of members of the athletic coaching staff being sent back to their dugout Calafiore off the Arsenal bench

1:09by Ena

1:12Sam Dean: Martinelli

1:14James A. McNicholas: one more stride off Arsenal's stairway to heaven

1:22James A. McNicholas: next stop Budapest and a crack at the ultimate prize in European football Arsenal through to

1:31Sam Dean: their first Champions League final of the Emirates generation and over land and sea they will head to Hungary after a thunderous occasion the noisiest night in the London borough of Islington for as long as most can recall.

1:49James A. McNicholas: Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. Of course you're well. Of course you're well. From a footballing perspective, Arsenal are in the Champions League final after beating Atletico Madrid 1-0 last night. But Kai Osaka's goal, enough to send us to Budapest for a first Champions League final in 20 years and only the second Champions League final in the history of this football club. It is an amazing thing, a rare thing. It is beautiful because it is rare. We want it more and more often, but right now it is what we've got.

2:33James A. McNicholas: And we just need to kind of soak it in a bit, stop, and just let it all wash over us because this is something special. To get to that game, whether we win it or not, is something special. To do it the way we've done it has been special. With the way we've played in Europe, with the teams we've beaten, with the performances we've put in, it has been fantastic. And it was amazing to see those scenes last night. We'll talk about those a bit more, I guess, over the course of this particular episode. We're going to be talking to Sam Dean, who was there last night. We'll discuss the match a little bit later on.

3:15James A. McNicholas: I'll talk to James about his experience and how he's feeling about everything. So we've got lots and lots and lots to get through. But as a football fan, moments like this and nights like last night and getting to the stage of a competition like the Champions League, getting to this stage is what you dream of, right? It's what you dream of when a season starts. Can we go the distance in this competition, in that competition? I don't really know that I have all the words I want to get out there today, which is a bit odd because this is what I do, you know, sit here and talk into this microphone.

3:53James A. McNicholas: And I'm very grateful that all of you listen. So words should be easy. But sometimes, sometimes they're not because every season, every football match, every half of football is nearly an experience in and of itself. and I think over the course of this season we have been through plenty of those experiences and we've been on a roller coaster of a journey and now it looks like it could end in the most incredible way we still have work to do of course but the fact that we have this opportunity is is really something to consider and I thought about Arsenal fans a lot last night during the game and all my friends who are Arsenal fans, people who I work with, all the Arseblog team, all my friends who are Arsenal fans and their friends who are Arsenal fans and everybody I know who are Arsenal fans.

4:44James A. McNicholas: I thought about them last night, experiencing that half against Atletico Madrid, that second half against Atletico Madrid, knowing we had this one goal lead. And I also thought about the wives and the girlfriends and the boyfriends and the husbands and the partners of those of us who are Arsenal fans, who maybe aren't as invested in it as we are, but for whom this still has resonance. It still has an impact on their lives because they're sitting there hoping that for us, the fans, it goes the way that we want it to go because they share our lives and they're part of our lives and they want what's good and happy and best for us.

5:29James A. McNicholas: And by extension, that obviously means what's happy and good and best for Arsenal. So a big thank you to all of those people who are by our sides throughout our lives on a day-to-day basis, but on nights like last night are sitting there biting their fingernails, surreptitiously checking their phones, even if they're not in watching the match. They want it for us, and I don't think we get through every season without the love and support that they give us. So a big thank you to all of you guys, as well as to all the Arsenal fans who made last night such an incredible experience and such an amazing thing to watch, whether you were there at the stadium, whether you were watching 100 miles away, 1000 miles away or the other side of the world.

6:12James A. McNicholas: I think all of us experienced something incredible and remarkable and beautiful last night. And that's kind of what this podcast is hopefully going to try and replicate over the course of however long it goes. I'm not sure how long it's going to be, but we do have plenty to get through. So why don't we talk to Sam, who was there last night, who was covering the game. And we can talk about the game itself, how it all played out before we chat with James a bit later on. So first up, good morning, Sam. Good morning. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. I'm feeling okay this morning, I have to say. With your reporter hat on, you have to be objective, you have to be slightly distanced from it, but I'm guessing it was hard not to get swept up in what was a very emotional and exciting night in the Emirates Stadium last night.

7:04Sam Dean: Yeah, absolutely. And for me, I'm not an Arsenal fan. It's very much work rather than pleasure. But to have been covering this club for eight years now and have been there throughout Arteta's whole time as manager, it felt to me like a kind of culmination of, certainly in terms of the atmosphere anyway, and on the pitch as well to an extent, It felt to me like a culmination of this mission that he's been on to weaponise the Emirates Stadium, to turn it into something hostile and febrile and a genuine force in the biggest moments. And I don't think he's ever achieved it, really. There have been times and moments and spells when the crowd has been great.

7:52Sam Dean: I'm thinking back to the top 22, 23 season. But last night was the best it's been. and I've been covering the club for almost a decade and there are people who have been covering it for a lot longer than me who said last night that that was the best they'd ever heard it. And that sense of emotion and that passion, that intensity, and then especially at the end, the outpouring of joy from the players and the coaching staff, which I think, and I'm sure we can come on to talk about this, was very deliberately led by Arteta. It kind of all just created this amazing occasion that I don't think people have seen before.

8:27James A. McNicholas: at that stadium do you think it is something before we talk about the game that idea of making your your stadium a fortress right it's not a new one right but it is not necessarily culturally aligned with what we're used to seeing in the premier league right and that idea that arteta is this guy who wants to maximize every aspect of his job as a manager right whether it's training whether it's recruitment whether it's the atmosphere inside the stadium whether it's you know when you guys ask him a question about who's injured or who's available and he doesn't give you any information because rightly wrongly whatever you think of that he believes that managing that kind of information is how he deals with the the finest of margins when it comes to the job of manager of Arsenal Football Club but this this idea that the the stadium is this hostile place like it's never going to be Galatasaray because culturally it is so different do you think it is worth expending that energy to make things or to make nights like last night happen or is there maybe a sort of a confluence of circumstances which makes last night happen almost organically in a way above and beyond the fact that it's a Champions League semi-final Arsenal were boosted on Monday night by what happened in the Manchester City game.

9:55James A. McNicholas: They had a great result against Fulham on Saturday. That lifted the mood after what had been a couple of weeks. And you sort of have all the ingredients for something like last night to happen that regardless of how much a manager says, come on, please get on my fun boat, unless things align, it doesn't necessarily happen in the same way.

10:16Sam Dean: Yeah, absolutely. And it has to be said that fundamentally, I think Arteta has struggled to create the atmosphere he wants. Certainly this season where, and obviously you guys have discussed it loads, it's been written about loads too, but the atmosphere at the Emirates this season has been defined by nervousness and caginess and edginess. And I have been at times, and I know it's a difficult thing to say as an Arsenal journalist, but maybe easier to say because I'm not an Arsenal fan. I have been at times a bit disappointed by the response of the Emirates crowd to the way Arsenal have played.

10:55Sam Dean: And I know that feeling has been shared internally too. And it's not always been easy because you can't tell fans what to think and how to feel. That always needs to be organic. But I felt that, as you say, the confluence of factors, the performance against Fulham, I think the fact that Lewis Skelly played against Fulham as well, played a massive part in that atmospheric shift. The Everton City result, of course, the size of the occasion. But I do think the fact that Arteta's been banging this drum for so long and the fans know how much he wants it to be that way. And also during the game, he was driving it.

11:32Sam Dean: He was as frantic and energetic as I've ever seen him. And that's not just for his own players. That's also for the atmosphere of the crowd. So I think for him, I think he, and I asked him this question in the press conference, I said, do you regard this kind of as the high point in terms of atmosphere and what you want? And he said, yes. He said he's never seen it like that before. And he said, we've ticked that box now, but we need to keep it that way. I think it was a sort of pointed remark to a degree that this is the standard he expects from the home crowd. I don't think it's going to be like that forever.

12:07Sam Dean: as you say the cultural the cultural thing the same kind of every london club like i think i think anfield has it to a degree but not all the time the team needs to be good you can't they don't just deliver 100 energy all the time i think newcastle can have it and i think you know when arteta goes to those places when it's really up and anfield is rocking andst james's park is rocking my feeling is that he looks quite enviously at that and wants to replicate that and I think he would have felt last night he did it in a way that he hasn't done before and that it contributed to the result and perhaps even the refereeing decisions.

12:45Sam Dean: We saw in Spain last week how the atmosphere at the Metropolitano in some people's eyes contributed to the decision-making by the referees. Yeah. Specifically the Eze penalty being overturned. That could equally be true of what happened last night.

13:04James A. McNicholas: it's yeah it's an interesting dynamic i think you know the focus on arteta the focus on the two managers is actually something i want to talk to you about because i think it's quite fascinating the way the two managers are framed and perceived and discussed in in quite distinct ways despite some similarities in in what they do and how they do it but let's talk about the team And I think what, again, might have been a contributing factor to the atmosphere last night was it was unchanged. And that felt like Mikel Arteta, it's too simplistic to say he's operating on vibes, right? He is a guy who's meticulous in every aspect of his game.

13:51James A. McNicholas: And a lot of the time, the decisions he makes are, I think, head over heart. sometimes to his detriment because you know it's a tough job and you have to make these decisions and they're not always easy and sometimes they don't they don't work out but I think last night certainly discussing the the game beforehand you know on our podcasts and and with other fans there was an expectation that okay Louis Skelly did really well against Fulham but he was there to give Zubomendi a rest and in a game of this magnitude with his experience as a Spanish international who knows Atletico Madrid may be better than anybody else on that Arsenal team because of all the time he's he played against them for Real Sociedad you're thinking well that that's a change that makes sense and you know if you want to keep it tight in a gritty semi-final against Atletico Madrid Piero Incapier is the guy who's going to play at left back because he brings that bit of you know aggressive dog that Calafuri operates in a slightly different way right so you You sort of talked yourself into changes that you expected, but then it's like he's just gone with the same team because it was so good against Fulham and the impact of that team was so good.

15:00James A. McNicholas: He's sort of like, I'm riding this wave for a little bit and see where it goes. So I'm curious as to what you thought about that team selection.

15:07Sam Dean: Yeah, I totally agree. I think over the past couple of years, more than in his first few years, Arteta has been more willing to trust his gut instinct and to roll the dice a bit. And as you say, we know he's a manager who's incredibly meticulous and looks at the data, is obsessed with that, and finding the tiny margins needed to win games. But also, I think sometimes he does trust his heart. And I think a good example will be bringing on Dowman against Everton, for example. And he just sort of chucked him in and said, go for it. and I felt like that team selection last night was a, it was a go for it kind of choice.

15:51Sam Dean: It was front foot, it was bold. And I think that contributed a lot to A, the way the team played and B, the way the crowd responded. And obviously both those two things were hugely important to what happened last night. But yeah, I think, I feel like he's adding that to his managerial repertoire, that willingness to trust instinct rather than the science maybe. Sure. To be a bit more romantic and a touch more emotional. And it felt like that kind of pick. I mean, my worry when the team news came out was that he was almost overstating the importance of beating a very understrength and ill Fulham team.

16:35Sam Dean: And I thought, yeah, they were great against Fulham, but Fulham were really bad. I thought it's a very different sort of thing, a different challenge. I mean, to start Lewis Skelly in what was now his second ever start in midfield in a senior match, on that occasion against that opponent, was a really bold, brave call. I think it is basically a really nice riposte to those who say that Mikel's too cautious. I think he can be too cautious. And yeah, there have certainly been occasions this season when fans have understandably been calling for a bit more attacking ambition. But last night, I think he showed that and he went for it and he played a bold team and he got bold football as a result.

17:19James A. McNicholas: Yeah, I think the Lewis Kelly thing is really interesting because I don't want to have the discussion about left back again because myself and James did that the other day. I think, you know, the Fulham game and the selection was maybe somewhere between, let's say, a show of faith and a trial run for Myles Lewis Skelly. The fact that you then pick him again against Atletico Madrid and he knows fine well what a difficult team they are and what a difficult challenge it is to play against a Diego Simeone team. That, to me, felt like a statement that, OK, you have a future now in this position. This is where I see you, you know, because it is a risk.

18:00James A. McNicholas: However you want to frame it, however good you think Myles Lewis-Gelley is, he's a 19-year-old starting his second professional game in midfield in a Champions League semifinal against one of the hardest teams to play against. Maybe they're not a Barcelona or a Bayern or a PSG in terms of how they attack, but they're still one of the most difficult teams to play against. And I think over the course of the first half, you know, he played a really big part in how Arsenal dealt with that game. There was a moment where Declan Rice made a block. But beyond that, it was really interesting to see Atletico Madrid sort of default to something that everybody said Atletico Madrid were not these days.

18:44James A. McNicholas: that the sort of the grittiest defensive team that Diego Simeone has put together with all those players that we all remember, this is not who they are now. So he has to play things slightly differently. But there's a moment, maybe halfway through the first half, where Jokeres has the ball. He's surrounded by three Atletico Madrid players on the byline. It goes out for a goal kick. They defend very well. But one of those players that's back there defending with all his heart is Antoine Griezmann. potentially, you know, the most dangerous player that they have in terms of creativity beyond Julian Alvarez.

19:21James A. McNicholas: And I think that told you something about the approach that Atletico Madrid took to this first half, where with a back five, they sat in, they defended deep. Arsenal had 68 % possession in that first half. It was as cagey as I thought it was going to be. But in that big moment, Simeone and his team, they defaulted to what kind of he knows best and what he, I guess, does best or has done best over the years. And whether that's a consequence of the way Arsenal played or whether that was just sort of like, okay, this is what we have to do in this scenario, I'm not sure. I did find that aspect of it really interesting.

19:58Sam Dean: Yeah, I agree. And just quickly on Myles and your point about show of faith versus trial run. my feeling is that if you'd asked Arteta at 2pm sorry no at 4.30pm on Saturday so an hour before the kick-off against Fulham if Lewis Skelly would play against Let's Go Madrid he would have given you a 0 % chance I don't think he put him in against Fulham to say if you do really well you'll start on Tuesday I agree yeah yeah but then he did so well and the team played so well that suddenly that became a genuine option And we know that if he had thought beforehand that Lewis Skelly was a great option in midfield, we would have seen it before now.

20:43Sam Dean: So that Fulham game has changed so much and potentially even the trajectory of Lewis Skelly's Arsenal career, Arsenal future perhaps. But yeah, in terms of the game, I agree. My feeling was in the first 15, 20 minutes, and I'd love to watch it back. I think I probably should. Atletico tried to press a few times and I think David Raya got out he played a few passes through the lines and they they got done basically Atletico got done I think they got a bit spooked by that and then they started to drop and it became like a back five as you say like for quite a lot of that first half and another example of Griezmann tracking back was when he was the one chasing Rice down the left wing.

21:26Sam Dean: So on a slide in for a tackle and just completely got left behind in the dirt. But it was striking to see that it was Griezmann tracking Rice's run. I think Arsenal succeeded in their game plan of taking control of the possession and the territory. And that's what Arteta wants. That's what his game model is. Arsenal don't play transitional football. They don't want to. And it's when the game becomes stretched, which it did in the second half for about 20 minutes 15 minutes looked more stretched that's when Arsenal become vulnerable they're so much better when they've got that really high strong rest defense and they're playing those sort of sort of slightly slower build-up patterns and getting into the right areas and I think they succeeded in pinning Atletico back and that's kind of you know what put the game in their favor even though the goal itself came slightly from not quite a counter-attack but from a pass in behind and there was a bit more space to run.

22:23But yeah, basically, long-winded answer

22:27Sam Dean: boiled down to one phrase is I think their game plan worked and forced them to go back in that first half and gave them the upper hand.

22:35James A. McNicholas: Yeah, there was some sort of nearly moments for Arsenal. There was a Gabriel shot, I think. There was a really good Lewis Skelly turn in the box. He fizzed this low cross across the six-yard box. There was nobody there really anticipating that, which is a bit of a shame because it was really good play from him. I wonder if he was trying to force an own goal there.

22:55Sam Dean: Because he looked up. He had time to look up. Because it almost happened in slow motion, I thought, watching that chance. And he looked up and there was no one there. And he fired it sort of at the ankle of the defender closest to the goal. And I wonder if that's sort of, in that moment, you just try and basically create a ricochet.

23:12James A. McNicholas: Yeah.

23:12Sam Dean: Just see where the ball goes. Yeah.

23:14James A. McNicholas: Why not? Why not? If there's nobody there and there wasn't anybody there, unfortunately, there was a shout for a penalty on Leandro Trossard, sort of nudged over in the box by Griezmann. I think we've seen them given before, but I think I'd have been unhappy if that was given up the other end. There wasn't a lot of contact there, but of course, in a game like this, at high stakes, you always want decisions like that to go for you. I think the goal then that we score, that Arsenal score, it's Saliba who plays it down the line for Jokeres, who makes a very good run off the back of two defenders.

23:51James A. McNicholas: it's like a switch has gone off with him now because that sort of, that ability, I mean, he always had the ability to make the runs. It was what happened with the ball when it got there that was an issue a lot this season. Over the last few weeks, he's really, really, really improved that aspect of his game. Did well, Oblak came out, cross for Trossard. I don't think there's anybody you'd rather have in that position than Trossard. You know, if you've got a packed defense and you need quick feet to get a shot off, he's the guy to do that. Keeper makes a save. And Saka, if nobody anticipated that Myles Lewis-Skelly cross, he certainly anticipated what might happen with the Trossard opportunity.

24:40James A. McNicholas: And he's there before the defenders to put it home and make it 1-0 just before halftime. And like, there's a discussion I want to ask you about. This is a discussion to be had about, you know, the strengths and weaknesses of the teams that remain in this Champions League. And you probably say that Arsenal's is more defensive than either Bayern Munich or PSG. They have greater attacking talent. but I do think it is probably telling that Arsenal's, on paper anyway, most potentially elite attacker was the guy who got the goal that sent Arsenal through to the Champions League final.

25:19Sam Dean: Yeah, and it was also the most romantic scorer. Sure. And I think Bacetta said this on one of his post-match TV interviews that of all the people to score that goal in that occasion, it's great that it's Bukayo. because he's been there obviously the whole time. He's come through this journey with Arteta more than anyone. He's played more games for Arteta than anyone else. And it was fitting that sort of on the greatest night of Arteta's managerial reign, it was the player who he's sort of developed the most, built the most, done the most for him, who scored that goal. I do wonder if Saka could score that kind of goal more frequently.

25:57Sam Dean: Obviously, I don't think he's ever going to be a sort of 30-goal-a-season poacher-type forward. I don't think that's in his kind of psyche, and that's fine. But getting in at the back post and scruffing one in, that's lovely stuff. Do that more. Arsenal, and this is part of the reason obviously they signed Nukeres in the summer is that they've struggled at times to score that kind of goal. There were signs last season, I remember at the start of last season, of Saka getting in the back post more and sort of attacking crosses and being a bit more willing to sort of get in the six-yard box. But I've not seen a huge amount this season.

26:36Sam Dean: And I thought just getting a poacher's goal is kind of what you need for the forward.

26:40James A. McNicholas: Yeah, just before halftime as well, which I think is, you know, everybody talks about it being a very obvious psychological factor, but I think it's true.

26:49Sam Dean: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it just gave that, as it was against Fulham, when the second and third goals came late in the first half, it just changed and just boosted that swell of of goodwill and good feeling and sort of joy that was going around the emirates on the locker race one i don't know if you want to talk about him that much but he said the last few weeks he sort of improved so much this is the last six days it's three it's three games it's it's like someone's gone in training basically you know when the ball comes into your chest victor you can just like stand up don't fall over let it hit your chest and then play it's like he's realized oh yeah okay

27:32James A. McNicholas: i think as well you know i think he is possibly the most fouled player in the premier league who doesn't get as many free kicks as he should get but i also think part of it is because there aren't enough of those moments when the ball or there weren't enough of those moments when the ball comes to him that the ball sticks or he just lays it off i think if you're seen as secure with your back to goal and then you get pulled over you start getting those free kicks which is what happened last night I mean there was potentially I think a red card for Atletico Madrid late in the game where he was he turned his man and was was brought down ultimately didn't matter but I yeah there's been a big improvement whether it's six days or the last couple of weeks you know it has changed for him and and obviously for the better which is great for Arsenal yeah

28:19Sam Dean: But just the single biggest problem he's had all season, and actually it's effectively been the single biggest problem Arsenal have had all season, is his play back to goal. He's just, until the last week, he's never been able to consistently hold the ball up during games and provide that outlet. And then he did it in Spain last week. He was great against Fulham. He did it again last night. And it's so interesting as to how that's clicked. And potentially it's the personnel. maybe Spanish defenders are less physically aggressive than Premier League defenders I don't know I'd be a bit surprised by that given the quality of the Atletico players but as you said earlier it feels like a switch has been flicked it's really it's absolutely bizarre because he's gone from sort of making you want to tear your hair out when every long pass bounces off him and he ends up on the floor to suddenly holding it up like a prime number nine and doing all the things that Arsenal kind of hopes he would do well I think he's always been all right when facing the goal.

29:20Sam Dean: Obviously, he's got 21 goals a season. When he's facing the right direction, he's been quite good. It's just when he's been facing his own goal, then it's been so hard work for him. Such hard work for him. But yeah, last three games, he's a new man.

29:34James A. McNicholas: Well, listen, I'm all for being a new man and hopefully he can be that new man for the last three or four games of this season because I thought he was really, really good last night and played a big part in things. There were some moments for Atletico Madrid in the second half. I think you have to expect, right, in a Champions League semifinal when you're playing top-quality opposition, there are going to be a few moments here or there. There was a Saliba header which didn't quite get back to Ryan. I think it was Simeone who went through and Gabriel did just enough, as they say, to put him off and he put the ball behind.

30:08James A. McNicholas: He didn't seem particularly happy about it. Then there was a moment when Gabriel, the ref blew for a foul on Gabriel, which was possibly a bit generous, but quite fortunate from an Arsenal perspective, because as the play went on, Calafiore stuck a foot out and caught Griezmann in the box. I think Arsenal, and you might not agree with me on this, but I think Arsenal over the years have been a team that hasn't had the rub of the green as often as some other teams. I think sometimes those moments where the bit of luck that you need to get you over the line or to win you a game hasn't always been there.

30:54James A. McNicholas: I think we've been quite unlucky at times, but maybe it was fine that that moment the referee gave that free kick to Gabriel, which rendered that Calafuri challenge on Griezmann redundant.

31:08Sam Dean: Yeah, I feel that Arsenal got lucky on that one. and actually and this is not a criticism at all but if you look at the sort of VAR errors this season and the sort of the KMI panel which I'm sure listeners love to hear about from Dale Johnson on Twitter Arsenal have actually technically had the most sort of wrong calls in their favour this season and that's the kind of luck you need sometimes if they get over the line in the Premier League that will be a tiny percentage of the reason why. That's football. And City had that for a few years. I remember a Rodrihan ball at Everton they got away with.

31:48Sam Dean: That's kind of, you need a little bit of run of luck sometimes. And the whole debate of, oh, it evens out over the course of the season. I don't really agree with that. Sometimes you just have a season when you get a few things more in your favour than other seasons and you have to capitalise. But yeah, certainly it felt to me like the foul given on Gabriel was quite soft. And it definitely was a foul on Griezmann by Calafuri. I'm quite surprised, and I need to listen back, did the referee blow his whistle before Griezmann went down? I think so, yeah.

32:23James A. McNicholas: I think so.

32:23Sam Dean: They couldn't review it then, effectively?

32:25James A. McNicholas: Yeah, I think that's what it was. I'd have to watch it back again, but that's my sense of it from last night, from the way it played out, yeah.

32:33Sam Dean: Because if he didn't blow the whistle for the first foul, in his eyes on Gabriel, then VAR could have come in and said, that's not a foul, and the Griezmann one is. So that was perhaps a little bit of fortune there for Arsenal. The Gabriel Simeone one, when it looked for all the world like he was going to score, I think Gabriel has done so well to stay just on the right side of not fouling him. Yes, agreed. A, it's really hard to not foul him at that point, because you're right behind him, and the ball's right there, and any touch he's going to go down. But he just sort of had his legs and body in the way enough or there close enough to Simeone to stop him getting that shot away without fouling him.

33:18Sam Dean: If he did that 10 more times, it's either a red card or a goal nine out of 10 times. Yeah, I agree.

33:26James A. McNicholas: I also think Simeone is just slow in getting the shot off. I think as he steps inside Raya, I'm just looking at it again here. Does Gabriel get a little touch on him? Yeah, just very slightly. You know, it's sort of a, his leg goes around him a little bit, but doesn't necessarily foul him. But it's, yeah, it's a big moment. A big moment. I think you're right, like nine times out of 10, that ends up with a foul and probably a red card.

33:56Sam Dean: Yeah, or a goal.

33:58James A. McNicholas: Or a goal, yeah. So listen, fine margins. I mean, Atletico Madrid got away with one as well when Incapier played an amazing pass, first-time pass maybe, I think, to Jacarez on the penalty spot. I think he should score. I think he's the kind of striker who would be dreaming of that kind of chance, you know, going into a game like this, just put it on a plate for me, put it over the bar. Hopefully, he's just saving his goal for the final, but it was one of those you couldn't help dwell on as the game went on, that like, oh, you know, if it's 2-0, I think that's game, set, match, really, given how well Arsenal can defend.

34:37James A. McNicholas: So it was one of those where I was like, oh, I hope that doesn't come back to haunt us.

34:42Sam Dean: Yeah, that was a great cross by Nkappie, who I think most fans would agree is not as good attacking-wise as Calafiore. And obviously, yeah, he discussed left-backs with James this week. But that was a great cross. And the sort of, the difference between those two left-backs is that Incappier quite likes that overlapping run and then the in-swinging cross. The Karnakir and Tierney-esque delivery. Yeah. Whereas Karnakir is more likely to pop up sort of in the number 10 position and try a backheel. But yeah, it was a good chance for Jokeres. I think the way the ball was bouncing and skipping up at him, I think it was a hard chance.

35:21Sam Dean: I think an elite level striker buries it, but I don't think that's what Jokeres is. But equally, he did a great job for Arsenal last night, has done in the last three games. and also just one more thing on Jokeres I know we've already discussed him but it's such a interesting element of his season that this run of games has come after he was dropped because Havertz came in for City and for Newcastle and to me it looked like Arteta had decided that Havertz was going to be the guy now for the rest of the season and then obviously the injury happens and Jokeres is back in and that's now triggered these best performances of his season so it's a Strange game football and the emotions of it and the pressure of it.

36:04And I just wonder how much basically being binned off for two games

36:09Sam Dean: contributed to what we're seeing now from Yacarez. If that is what happened, then Arteta's kind of got lucky.

36:16James A. McNicholas: Well, no, maybe it's just something that Yacarez deserves credit for. You know, the response to being dropped and the fact that the door opened again for him, you know, maybe give him credit for stepping up. I want to fast forward towards the end of the game and the final part of the game. Because once we start going over 80 minutes, you know, substitutes on both sides. Atletico are pushing. It's starting to get frenetic. It's starting to get tetchy on the sidelines. You know, the crowd, I think what was really interesting about this, they kept cutting to the crowd in the last five or ten minutes of the game.

36:56James A. McNicholas: And there have been games, I think, at this stadium this season where with a one goal lead, Arsenal fans are kind of biting their fingernails or sitting on their hands and they're frantic with worry. What was so fantastic about this was like fans were singing and waving the scars and they really, really believed that Arsenal were going to do this. it wasn't maybe the prettiest football anybody's ever seen, but I thought this is where the sort of framing of the two managers comes into play. Like you've got Arteta and Simeone. You've got Gabriel Ainsa and Nelson Vivas. I don't know what people are expecting to happen on the sideline when these men are there, right?

37:41James A. McNicholas: Because they're fierce competitors. They want to win and they want to win by any means necessary. And I think Arsenal's biggest strength is defending or the defensive quality. And I think, you know, the two center halves were brilliant. I thought Rice was brilliant. I thought Ben White had his best game in a long, long time. He was really, really good last night. And I was delighted to see that. But when you get to this stage of a game, you know, if it was the other way around, and Arsenal were losing 1-0 and it got scrappy and a bit grotty and disgusting. And, you know, there was people running up and down the sideline.

38:19James A. McNicholas: I don't think we would hear anything other than people talking about Diego Simeone, the old master, the old tactician. He makes you play the game he wants to play. This is how you do it. This is how you grind your way to a Champions League final. Why do you think Arsenal are not afforded that level of, I don't know, if goodwill is the right way of putting it. When it's Arsenal, it's framed as, well, this is not how you play football. We were watching, I was watching last night on Premier Sports in Ireland. They had Kenny Cunningham and Damien Duff on. And like, I literally had to turn it off because they were so dismissive about the way Arsenal played.

39:04James A. McNicholas: Is this not a sign of a team that over three years in the Champions League has made real and tangible progression because they play the game to win, right? If Arsenal went out and were cavalier and said, well, go and try and score a second and a third, you wouldn't be able to move for people saying, well, they're stupid, they're naive, they're this, they're that. That's not how you play the game. If you want to get to the Champions League final, you've got to do it this way. This is a Diego Simeone, that's how you do it. But when it's Arsenal, the manager, the players, Whereas the approach is not afforded that level of goodwill, I think is the way I would put it.

39:49James A. McNicholas: And a lot of it comes from players who have an ideal of football in their minds that they were never capable of producing themselves anyway. So it's really weird to me that you can't look at players like Saliba and Gabriel and Rice and White or see the discipline and organisation of this Arsenal team and not look at it as something to appreciate. It's not easy to do what Arsenal did last night. Yeah, I agree with you on all counts.

40:19Sam Dean: I would add as well that I find it laughable how much sort of stick Arsenal get for things like being good at set pieces. When the Arsenal I kind of grew up watching as a non-fan were consistently derided for being weak at set pieces, for being soft. So it's clearly just a bad faith argument. Yes. It's clearly a consequence of other things. I suspect a lot of it is just social media. We live in the sort of banter era of social media. And a fact of Arsenal's modern existence is that Arsenal are big on social media. Like the blogging culture, as you know well, the podcasting culture, like it's a massive part of Arsenal Football Club that goes far beyond most other clubs.

41:12Sam Dean: and that to an extent puts a target on Arsenal's back in terms of rival fans. The other thing I would say though, the most fundamental argument and the difference between the response to Simeone when he does it and the response to Marteta is that Simeone's won stuff. I think that's the thing. If Arsenal win the Premier League and Champions League, it changes that whole dynamic. And yeah, there'll be people who snipe and grumble and say, oh, they weren't the most attractive football team this season. But I think in the kind of punditry world, in the sensible world of actual rational analysis, it will change the dynamic a lot and it will make Arsenal less of a target for people in those scenarios.

41:59Sam Dean: I mean, I'm surprised to hear that about Premier Sports. I didn't watch that game last night and think, oh, Arsenal are playing ugly football here.

42:06James A. McNicholas: No, you know what it was? It was like the end of the game, the players have given everything they have to reach a Champions League final for the first time in 20 years, for the first time since 2006 and only the second time in the club's history, right? It is a huge moment, a huge occasion. Not one person inside that stadium is going, well, you know what? I wish we'd played a bit more like the Arsene Wenger teams that got beaten 10-2 on aggregate by Bayern Munich. It sort of completely missed or was completely disconnected from the experience you have as a fan, right? To sort of say, you know, that argument, well, don't celebrate until you've won anything, etc.

42:48James A. McNicholas: You know, again, we can go down the celebration police road. It just, football is a game of moments, you know? If, and I've said this before, if you can only celebrate when you win something, when a team scores in the first minute of a game, nobody do anything. Nobody celebrate. Just a quick handshake back to the center circle. Fans, don't celebrate. Don't celebrate that moment. Don't celebrate that goal because there's 89 minutes now for the opposition to score. It's, as you say, a completely bad faith argument. You know, it really is. I mean, there's a clip doing the rounds this morning on social media about a presenter on ESPN talking about, well, how much did the way Mikel Arteta behaved make you want to go down there and punch him in the face?

43:35James A. McNicholas: And you're thinking, well, Diego Simeone, like him, loathe him, respect him, whatever. That's how he acts. That's how he behaves. And you're right to say probably he's got the luxury of having won things for Atletico Madrid in the past. And that gives you maybe a measure of respect, perhaps, that's missing from Mikel Arteta from certain aspects of the media. But I've never heard anyone talk about going down and violently assaulting the manager of a football team because he is passionate and wants his team to win in exactly the same way as the opposition manager is behaving beside him and behaved last week, as you saw in Spain, you know, around the penalty incident and everything else.

44:21James A. McNicholas: It's crazy.

44:22Sam Dean: Yeah, yeah. I think the contrast with Simeone and the discussion around it is really interesting. I mean, my personal view is that one of the reasons for this kind of discussion and constant debate around it all is that a lot of people just don't like Arteta. They don't like the way he acts on the touchline. They don't like the way he talks. I think a lot of it comes back to the Newcastle game a few years ago and the 1-0 defeat and the rant about the referees and the disgrace, the scratchier element. I think that was really damaging for his kind of perception and PR for the wider world. But all that stuff should also apply to Simeone.

45:02Sam Dean: Simeone is kind of seen as this kind of roguish figure who's always been like that. That's just Diego for you. Whereas I think people kind of, in a way, have higher expectations of Arteta, perhaps because of where he came from, working with Pep Guardiola, and perhaps also because of Arsenal's history with Wenger and the way they played football and the expansive nature of it and Wenger's own approach to touchline behaviour. But frankly, who cares? Arsenal fans only care about what happens if they win. And that's also all Arteta cares about. His job is not to make friends with Liverpool fans or Newcastle fans or people observing him from ESPN studios in Pennsylvania.

45:42Sam Dean: His job is to win games for Arsenal Football Club and he believes this is the best way of doing it. And he is currently doing it better than anyone has done. when he is. So you can't really argue with it. It's, yeah, it fascinates me. I do, at the risk of repeating myself, I do think winning the Premier League and or Champions League changes the dynamic. Like I think when Mourinho came to Chelsea, for example, I remember his first season has quite a lot of sort of, oh, they're very good defensively, but they're a bit boring. And then when he won it, having said I'm going to win it, then he won it and won it again.

46:19Sam Dean: it became a sort of like, oh, that's Jose. You know, that's Jose for you. He sets up his team in a defensive way and wins 1-0, beats you on a counterattack. What a class approach. So I just think, I think once you've got that medal around your neck, people look at you differently. And I think that's what happened with Arteta.

46:36James A. McNicholas: Hopefully. Just finally, you know, as a neutral observer, albeit one who has invested, obviously, in the way the team. Yeah, no, genuinely, you know, You can't cover a club for eight years and make the relationships that you've made over the course of those years with people in the club, outside the club, around the club, fans, random podcasters and all the rest. How did you view those celebrations, those scenes at the end where I think there was obviously celebration, but I think there was a sense of relief. but I also think as well a sense of, oh, what's the word I want to use here? I guess communion is a good word to use between fans and the team and the staff and everybody that there was a realization that this is a huge, huge thing for this football club.

47:35James A. McNicholas: And, you know, the ramifications, as we know, could be seismic. But in and of itself, it is another piece of evidence, if that's the right way of putting it, of the progression that this team has made over the years under Mikel Arteta.

47:52Sam Dean: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm going to answer your question with a question. How much do you think – so I think we could both agree that Arteta drove a lot of those celebrations on the pitch. He was the one who grabbed all the players together and ran them all. he was the one doing the dad dancing with trossard which is an absolutely extraordinary clip i can't i saw that and thought this must be like ai this is unbelievable it's just a complete departure from sort of everything he's ever done on the emirates pitch but how much of that do you think was him being simply overcome with emotion or how much of that do you think was deliberate by him?

48:37Sam Dean: I think... It's sending a message to the world and to Man City.

48:42James A. McNicholas: I think there's no question in my mind that he would have considered the scenes if Arsenal won this game and how best to maximise those scenes. And I don't say that in a way that I'm painting him to be cynical. Because, you know, as we discussed earlier on, he has always, always, since the first day he came into the football club, and I'm sure you were there at his first press conference, he has always looked to cultivate the relationship between the team and the fans. always so anything he can do to generate scenes like that or emotions like that or to to take what would already be jubilant scenes and elevate them to a different level i'm absolutely sure he he had a hand in that you know whether he had any uh i don't know if he picked the playlist afterwards or if he had a word with peter and said if we win this is what we need to do I don't know if he went to that kind of detail, but I'm absolutely certain that he was determined to make this as big as he could make it because it has a ripple effect on how everybody feels.

50:02Sam Dean: Yeah, I agree that the word cynical is the wrong word. I think I would use the word calculated. I totally agree that. I think he saw that. A, of course, he was buzzing and flying and delighted to have won. And it's an outpouring of relief and all that removal of the stress of 90 minutes. But B, I think he saw the opportunity there to say, okay, so to extend the fun boat metaphor, he spent most of the season saying guys get on board the fun boat last night was the moment the fun boat set sail and it was like they're off it's saying to the world to the whole stadium to all the players guys we are cruising now like look at us we're flying the sun's out it's wind in our sails we're going through the the waters at absolutely a ray of knots like we've left the port and this is this is it now.

50:55Sam Dean: I felt that's what he was getting across. And it was just, I've never seen him like that before in any way. And it felt to me like, yeah, he's using this to send a message. And I suspect it would not have been quite so exuberant if the Everton City game hadn't gone the way it had.

51:16James A. McNicholas: Yeah, I agree.

51:17Sam Dean: Yeah. That four days of Saturday thrashing for them Monday, getting the Premier League title advantage back. seeing that, feeling that opportunity again, coming out there, the atmosphere it was, the bus welcomed, beating Lettico Madrid, beating Simeone. It basically felt to me like all the momentum is suddenly with Arsenal again. And he was trying to say to everyone, we're off, we're flying, let's go. Like now's the moment, now's the time to push. Put your foot down, keep, you know, whatever the sailing equivalent might be. I don't know.

51:48James A. McNicholas: No, definitely don't drop the anchor. The anchor up. Yeah, keep, keep, keep, keep. I mean, everyone rowing in the same direction. Is that it? Keep those boating analogies going. Yeah. Yeah. All right. We better leave it there. Sam, pleasure to talk to you. Thanks so much for being with us today to talk about what was a great night for Arsenal. And we'll chat again soon.

52:07Sam Dean: Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. Hopefully see you soon.

52:12James A. McNicholas: Thank you very much indeed to Sam. And you can find him on Blue Sky. He is at samjadean.bsky.social, at samjadean.bsky.social. Right. The schedules were such today that it wasn't possible for us to knock out an ad hoc Arsecast Extra, but it would be remiss of us not to talk to James after what was such a brilliant night last night at the Emirates. So good morning, James. How are you feeling? Goodly?

52:42Sam Dean: Goodly. Very goodly. Yeah. I feel I feel quite exhausted I feel like I played I mean it was such a exhilarating evening and I don't know about you I had an absolutely appalling night's sleep just couldn't switch off from it couldn't even really go to bed until the early hours of the morning and even then you know it sort of was with me through the night and woke up to this morning. And it turns out it wasn't a dream. It all happened. We're going to Budapest.

53:22James A. McNicholas: Yeah, we're going to Budapest. It's the good kind of, like football can leave you agitated in many ways, right? And there have been nights, I think, when I've found it hard to sleep, but because things haven't gone well. And certainly last night was one of those where I will admit, I kind of drifted off quite nicely. I was just thinking of that Bikai Osaka moment over and over again. I wasn't thinking about the opportunities we missed maybe to make it 2-0. I was able to think about all the things that were good about this game and how good Yokeres was, how good the team defensively was, all the antics on the sidelines.

53:59James A. McNicholas: It sort of helped me drift off into a nice sleep. But it was certainly a really, really emotional evening, I think, for everybody. You know, fans who are in the stadium, fans watching all over the world. I think this, I don't know how to describe it even. I feel a little bit emotional now this morning just trying to think about it and put it into perspective. Because, you know, you and I have been doing this for a long time. And talking about Arsenal for a long time, writing about Arsenal for a long time. And this is only the second time in our experience of doing this and the second time in the history of this football club that we have made the Champions League final.

54:42James A. McNicholas: And I think to have got to this point, whatever way the journey has resonated with you listening to this podcast, whatever way that journey has resonated with you over the course of this season, we have something to enjoy and cherish and relish and to really, really bring everybody together at a time where I feel like it's just the right time for everybody to be united in this sort of common goal to see Arsenal make history, I guess.

55:13Sam Dean: i couldn't agree more andrew i mean yeah i think we do have that perspective on it we were both in paris in 2006 yeah um 20 years ago probably took about 10 years for me to get over it still a game where like if the highlights ever flash up i sort of immediately have to leave the room or slam the laptop shut um so i kind of put all those feelings away in a box you know like deep deep deep in my chest um of kind of champions league finals past and uh i think i'm ready to open the box after what i saw last night i'm ready to to face this again and enjoy the the honor and the privilege really um of arsenal being Champions League finalists.

56:07And listen, I'm happy for me.

56:11Sam Dean: Don't get me wrong. I am delighted for myself as a fan. For myself, yes. But I really was last night quite overcome by, you know, those players, that manager, everyone associated with Arsenal, they've made a lot of people very, very happy. And I thought, what a beautiful thing to bring that level of joy and elation to so many people all around the world. And everyone who's played even a small part in that, you know, deserves to be commended this morning.

56:50James A. McNicholas: Yeah, and it's hard not to think again of, you know, the wider fan base as well. If you're happy for yourself and I'm happy for me and we can be happy for everybody as well because I think we know what it means and what it means to the fans of this football club, you know, who we've gone through some stuff. And that's true, not just for Arsenal fans, any team, any supporter goes through stuff with their football club, but we've had a lot to contend with. And, you know, it's really interesting, isn't it, to reflect on the shifting moods, the shifting sounds of this season and what an experience it's been.

57:30James A. McNicholas: And hopefully it's one that ends up with us being able to look back on this journey with, you know, real pride and happiness. And we can put this season down as one of the best any of us have ever experienced, and maybe potentially the best any of us will ever experience, you know, depending on your age, of course. But I do think the journey is fascinating and how, you know, a couple of weeks ago, So it did not feel like this. We did not feel like this. And we did not feel as happy and as elated and as confident and as together and united, you know, to use those words again, because we had some difficult times and we've had some difficult times.

58:17James A. McNicholas: And, you know, does it make you, I don't know, it's hard because everyone's feelings are genuine, right? You know, I'm talking for normal, decent people and not certain people who present a facade via the media. I think for Arsenal fans, what you experience is really, really genuine. And it's not unfair or unreasonable to say that you've had some highs and you've had some lows over the course of this season. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. but you know, how do you deal with those fluctuations? Um, it isn't easy. I don't think to go from like, Oh God to like, Oh geez. You know, yeah, it is a, it's fluid.

59:03James A. McNicholas: Is that the right way of putting it? You're up and down. It's roller coaster. I don't know.

59:08Sam Dean: Yeah. But you know, you don't, you don't get how we feel today without everything that's come before. Sure. Good and bad. And that applies not to this season, but previous seasons. And that is the ride of being a football fan that we're all on. And it's not, even if you step back and go, wow, you know, two years ago we were in the quarterfinals and then we're in the semifinals and now we're in the final. And it looks so linear and like such a straightforward graph, but your experience as a fan is never that, right? It's never as straightforward as that. And that's probably what keeps us addicted and locked in and, you know, still talking about it and dreaming about it after 20 years.

59:57That's, that is the ride.

1:00:02Sam Dean: And I, you know, that April was difficult and we had difficult conversations. I'm sure all fans did and had difficult times. But I kind of feel maybe that's something we needed to go through, you know, and I don't just mean us. I almost wonder, is it something that the team and that the manager had to go through, that it kind of formed in them the resolve that saw them through last night and that might see them through these remaining last four games? you know do we get to the team that we saw last night and against Fulham if we've not had the April that we've had and all these little incremental things that kind of you know if you're if you're kind of fatalistic about it you might say it's meant to be that way I don't know but you know this morning it's a wonderful feeling to be kind of free of that angst and just looking forward with so much optimism and excitement

1:01:06James A. McNicholas: what do you think you know listen i didn't want to go there before the game you know the the fact that the premier league is back in our control after what happened on monday night i think was i think a boost not just for the fans but for the players as well going into this game and i didn't want to sort of consider like well what happens if this goes wrong you know you've sort of in your mind you're going well we've still got the safety net of of the premier league you You know, what a, in inverted commas, consolation prize that would be for this season. You know, even if we did get knocked out by Atletico Madrid.

1:01:42James A. McNicholas: But I was slightly worried by the idea that that would be sort of all our eggs in one basket scenario. And I really think that above and beyond this incredible achievement of qualifying for the Champions League final, it's sort of beneficial for us as we look ahead to these final three games of the season. like we've been on this journey budapest is the final stop um that's on may 30th i just think it's sort of there in reach and as a way of of consolidating this group of players like we could sit here this morning and say well you know they they've got to respond you know they've got to show what they're made of dig in etc etc i do wonder sometimes if there's only so much digging in you can actually do in a season.

1:02:32James A. McNicholas: You know, or the idea that you can use disappointment to motivate yourself. I get it completely, but I do wonder if there's a finite limit to that, where if last night didn't go as well as it can, does it have any knock-on effects? You know, is the disappointment after the disappointment of Man City away and maybe the Carabao Cup final, is it something that really brings doubt to your mind? So I think last night was so, so important for these last three games of the season as well, because this was a win that we worked so, so hard for. And people can talk about style and aesthetics and all that kind of stuff.

1:03:15James A. McNicholas: But I think there's a huge boost to this team from winning that game against a team like Atletico Madrid as well, you know, who may not be the creme de la creme of European football, but are bastardly hard to beat.

1:03:34Sam Dean: 100%. And, you know, these players go to West Ham on Sunday as Champions League finalists. And I have to believe that does something for them. You know, I have to believe that that gives them a confidence, security, an affirmation that they are good enough. You know, they don't have the affirmation of trophies as yet, but you don't get many more affirmative things in football than being a Champions League finalist. I mean, that is right up there. and for a lot of players who've never been at that level before it could be a really really big moment for them it will feel like they've arrived and I think the Champions League has sort of all season long been a kind of release valve for the team in a way because it hasn't been hasn't been at the front of centre of our minds I would say certainly in kind of fan discourse and it's sort of snuck up on us and yet when you look back it's maybe where we've played our best football

1:04:41and I

1:04:43Sam Dean: yeah I think it will just continue to be that I think it continues to release the pressure a bit just knowing that yeah we've got the league to come and that's a huge challenge and a huge task and hugely important but whatever happens we have Budapest on the horizon and And I really, really hope that can be a kind of, yeah, that it can help, that it can help get over the line in the Premier League too. Because if we do those things, then I think there's a case. Well, I think there's a case. It's the greatest season in Arsenal's history.

1:05:30James A. McNicholas: Even with the Invincibles?

1:05:32Sam Dean: I think so. Yeah. I think it's certainly a worthwhile debate.

1:05:37James A. McNicholas: Yeah. I mean, I would say the modern era as if, like, the Invincibles was 50 years ago. It just sort of feels like 50 years ago. But it was 22 years ago. So, you know, football has changed. And I think to be able to do it and the sort of – to get to this point, you know, there's no lack of recognition, I think, for the hard work that's been put in by the manager and the players and pretty much everybody at the club, you know. that people roll their eyes at the idea of, or at the word project, right? But I think that's kind of what this has been. And to sort of get to where we are now and for everyone to sort of share that moment last night.

1:06:21James A. McNicholas: Like I was looking at the stadium. I had to turn off the TV last night because it was too miserable on Irish TV. But I watched it again this morning and I watched those celebrations and I watched the interactions between the players, the players themselves, the player and the manager, players and the staff, players and the fans, the fans and the fans. Like that idea of unity that Mikel Arteta often talks about, it was absolutely there last night. You know, the symbiotic nature of that was probably as acute as I think I've ever seen it at that stadium. And, you know, you were there, so tell me if I'm wrong.

1:07:01Sam Dean: no you know i mean you're not wrong it was very very very well listen from before the game i mean i watched the buses come in that roundabout on the hornsey road and saw scenes there unlike anything i've ever seen at the emirate stadium i mean it was it had that sense of drama and occasion you know from hours before kickoff and i've never seen the stands that full 20 minutes before a game begins. And I've never heard noise quite like I did in those first few minutes. And I thought it was a gripping game. There's been a lot of talk about the two semifinals. I thought this was like a very different but very engrossing tie in its own right.

1:07:47Sam Dean: Close as it was always going to be. And the party that greeted full-time was pretty spectacular. spectacular. So yeah, it was a very special night again, you know, for nights at that stadium, it's got to be right up there. I think anyone who was lucky enough to be there will agree. And yeah, I think it's getting to a final, yeah, getting to a Champions League final. You know what? I'm really glad actually that everybody involved recognised that that was something to be celebrated in its own right. Yeah. I think the club played that perfectly and the fans, I think the fans were determined to have a party, whatever happened.

1:08:41Sam Dean: So, and that's quite right, you know, because also, yeah, it's getting to a first Champions League final in 20 years. It's a huge deal, only the second one in the club's history, but it's also just building that sense of unity that you mentioned and togetherness ahead of what remains of the Premier League. I mean, I think it's going to be as crazy in that stadium when we play Burnley.

1:09:11James A. McNicholas: Hopefully, hopefully. And who knows what kind of state the Premier League will be in at that point. It could be, you know, depending on other results. And if we do our jobs, it could be, you know, a huge, huge Monday night. Although it should be Sunday afternoon, but we won't go there. um so yeah what what's your plan for the day just to sort of coast through on this uh cloud of

1:09:33Sam Dean: emotion and you know see where you end up so mate I think so I mean I I just just to enjoy it really just soak it all up I mean I was in the ground which was fantastic but it does mean I've got the benefit of being able to go back and watch lots of replays and look at some of the brilliant photography and imagery and just soak it all in. I like that we played on the Tuesday night. We've actually got a bit of clearance between that and West Ham, which I think is really beneficial for the team as well. So, yeah, I reckon I've got about a day or two of this, of basking, and then attention turns to Sunday.

1:10:15James A. McNicholas: Yeah, we've got to let ourselves enjoy this in the moment because moments like this don't really happen that often. As we said, this is only the second time in the history of Arsenal that we have made the Champions League final. So it is something to be celebrated. It is something to be enjoyed. And I don't know that any Arsenal fans today really need to be told that because I'm sure they're experiencing it in the same way that we are. But it's worth mentioning all the same. Right. You have to go. So thank you for popping in on this one. And we will talk to you, obviously, on Monday after West Ham.

1:10:51James A. McNicholas: Enjoy the day and enjoy all the replays and pictures.

1:10:54Sam Dean: Yeah, you too, man. Bye-bye, guys. A giant step forward for Arsenal. Another setback for Simeone, who leaves soaked and defeated. The touchline antics familiar, but not distracting to Arsenal. And now the anthem strikes up again. as Arsenal's players surge towards a joyous clock end.

1:11:49James A. McNicholas: There's an example of how you manage a broadcast when a football club, a football team and its fans are enjoying a moment, a special moment at the end of a game which was hard fought and which has brought the reward of a Champions League final. Sometimes you don't have to say anything at all. Sometimes you can just let the atmosphere speak for itself and you don't need Connie Kenningham and Damien fucking Duff being miserable wankers when people are trying to enjoy themselves. That's pretty much all I've got to say on that. So look, I'm going to leave it there. I'm going to get this podcast out to everybody because after a night like last night, everyone wants to listen and enjoy and relive what was something special and amazing.

1:12:37James A. McNicholas: So it only remains for me to say thank you to everybody, as always, for being here, for listening, for downloading, for subscribing, for sharing, for all of it, for being on this journey, not just this season, but all the seasons, the 20 seasons since we last made it to a Champions League final. I know there are people out there who've listened to every single episode along the way. Thank you. No matter how long you've been with us, nights like last night are special. nights like last night should be enjoyed and remembered and cherished. And hopefully, over the course of this podcast, we've helped you do that a little bit.

1:13:10James A. McNicholas: So for now, take it easy, folks, and we will catch you on the next one. Until then, cheers. Bye-bye.

1:13:38Thank you.

1:14:10Thank you.

1:14:33James A. McNicholas: Thank you for waiting. The good news is that after eight hours of excruciating labor, your wife has given birth to a beautiful, healthy baby boy. Yeah, I guess you could look at that in two ways, you know. Eight hours of labor, it's hard going, you know. It's really put in the effort, but it's not really an efficient way to have a baby. You want to be doing it quicker than that, you know. Um, yes, well, I guess the main thing is, though, it's a beautiful, healthy baby boy. Would you like to take a look at him? Here he is. I suppose. He's quite bald, isn't he? Like, I think, you know, all things considered, you want to have a hairier baby.

1:15:15James A. McNicholas: Typically, the hair sort of grows in at a later date. Don't worry about it too much. I mean, he's not very standy-uppy, is he? Like, what's going on with those legs? They're like little jelly legs. We want to see him doing shuttle runs up and down the hostable corridors. I might just take this baby away.