Episode 882 - Statement signing

0:23Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. It's another quiet week from an Arsenal perspective. All the Arsenal stories more or less revolve around our players who are or have been at the World Cup. A few of them have gone home this week, so we'll talk about them. We'll talk about some of the players that are still involved, of course. and we'll talk a bit about the tournament as a whole and some of the games, some of the incidents, some of the bits and bobs that have been going on this week.

1:00Beyond that, though, folks, it is very, very quiet when it comes to Arsenal transfers. There are a few bits and bobs, of course, that are rumbling away in the background. You would have heard on Monday, myself and James have quite a long conversation about the interest in Bruno Gimaraes, a player who I do think would be a good addition to our midfield, particularly when concerns continue about what we're asking or what is being asked, I think, by Arsenal and England, but England right now of Declan Rice. You might have seen the image of him sitting on the bench towards the end of England's win over the Democratic Republic of Congo with an ice pack on his hamstring.

1:43That is never a good sign. And I think if we're being honest, He looks like somebody who is being nursed very heavily through this tournament after what was a long and arduous season with Arsenal. So that probably does go some way to explaining the interest in Bruno Gimaraes. Newcastle, of course, have lost Sandro Tonali. It seems he's gone to Tottenham for a fee of like beyond 90 million pounds, which is fucking insane. and Mateus Fernandes going to Tottenham from West Ham for like£82-85 million. This market is absolutely crazy if you're buying from within the Premier League. So we'll talk a bit about that and talk a bit about where Arsenal might need to explore other options.

2:30And as I said, we'll touch on some of the stuff that's been going on at the World Cup. So let's just get on with it. And I am delighted to welcome back to the show someone we haven't spoken to in quite a while. So it's overdue from The Athletic. It's Art DeRosche. Good afternoon, Art. Good afternoon. Thanks for having me again. My pleasure. My pleasure. I want to begin today with, I feel like this is going to become a weekly feature, the how worried are you about Declan Rice conversation? Because, you know, I was probably like 9.999 out of 10 going into yesterday's England game, their win over the Democratic Republic of Congo.

3:10and afterwards, I don't know, like I've gone full spinal tap. It's 11 out of 10 now. It's hard not to be concerned, isn't it, when you see him sitting there, ice pack on the hamstring. He's playing in midfield, then he's asked to go and play at right back. Just as Arsenal did throughout the campaign, England are asking a lot of Declan Rice. Yeah, definitely. In terms of my kind of scale of being worried, maybe I'd go with a seven or eight. but i'm i'm usually quite um quite calm and relaxed anyway when it comes to a lot of things really um so my my seven is probably a lot of other people's 10.

3:52sure okay um and i do get why as you say the the pictures of him after the game with the ice on his hamstring really don't give you any you know good feelings um and also one thing that's been in the back of my mind is um so i i did a piece just before the world cup about it was more centered on bukayo saka and his availability but i had to include rice in there as well because uh i think they're quite similar in terms of the minutes their arcs to play and over the course of their careers as you mentioned, Andrew, the different roles they have to do on the pitch across the 90 minutes, but also across their whole careers.

4:37And with Rice, I remember Mikael Arteta did speak after the Euros, so Euro 2024, he said, and I'm just paraphrasing at the minute, but he said Bukayo and Declan had played around 130 games in two seasons for club and country. And I looked it over and with Rice, he was spot on. It was 130 games. And with Saka, it was 121 games. So for me, it's more about looking at the accumulation over seasons and then thinking about, okay, well, what is the start of next season going to look like for a lot of Arsenal players, but those two in particular. Saka, you know, has been maybe easier to manage, if that's the right way of putting it, right?

5:30Because there is this direct replacement in the shape of Nani Matueke, who I think has been a bit hit and miss for England during the tournament. But there's enough confidence there that Thomas Tuchel can say, I'll start Matueke in most of the games. I think Matueke started three of the four games. Saka came off the bench yesterday, obviously, for England. And Rice was left out of the game against Panama. Is that right? Yeah. But his role and his influence and his importance is such that I think it's more difficult for Tuchel to sort of say, right, well, you know what, today, this is a knockout game.

6:11I'll play Kabi Mainu instead or Jordan Henderson. I mean, listen, any of us sitting here, if we were choosing our team and picking a team to play a World Cup qualifying game, with all due respect, it's not going to be Jordan Henderson over Declan Rice, even if you have some worries about how much you're asking of him. But Saka, obviously, a little bit different. You know, there's more to come, obviously, from an England perspective. There's more to come in a very challenging environment, too. when England go to Mexico City, play at the Azteca, 7 ,000 feet above sea level. The altitude is going to be an issue, I think.

6:53And Declan is one of those guys. I think it could be, you know, whatever little bit of Irish heritage he has in him. He gets that kind of red face and a bit flustered looking when he's running around in the heat. You know, we don't cope with that as well as some. But yeah, it's going to be interesting to see how much he can do you know he talked about this neural pain that he has in his back and his hamstring he went off and missed the panama game because he had a little bit of a calf strain then he's holding a an ice pack to his hamstring like i made the analogy today in the blog that it's sort of like a a cracked windshield and it starts off small but the longer you ignore it or the longer you try and drive with it the crack just sort of keeps getting bigger and bigger and bigger like despite being 7 out of 10 on the worried scale you know do you have concerns that it might go a bit too far if england continue in the tournament or or there there comes a point where physically he just can't do it anymore and then obviously we have to think about what happens at the start of next season and and we've been linked with bruno gimoraj and that makes a lot of sense in in in many ways but but he too is at this tournament having played a long season for Newcastle and for Brazil so there's a lot to sort of consider on an individual basis about the player himself and then what Arsenal are going to do to try and cope with all of this yeah in terms of Rice what is probably the most concerning thing is it feels like he's more important for this England side than he is with Arsenal if that makes sense and what I mean by that is not that he's a better player for England but that they just rely on him a lot more in terms of I felt like when I was watching let's say the Ghana game for instance actually also the Croatia game the camera was almost always just zoomed in close up on deck from rice running towards his own goal to make a recovery run and win the ball back which obviously he does a lot of Arsenal but But it felt like he was doing a lot more than usual for England.

8:59And obviously that comes from the team not being as well-connected. They don't play together every week and such things. And they don't have that sort of brilliant central defensive partnership that we have, which is a kind of a bit of a safety net for someone like Rice when he's playing for Arsenal. Exactly. So it felt like he was doing a lot more hard work than he would usually be doing at Arsenal. And when you consider Mexico, as you said, there is the issue of the altitude. But also, I think the atmosphere in that game is going to take the intensity to a different level as well. They've won all their games.

9:46They haven't conceded a goal yet at this tournament. and I think they'll be really up for it. So in terms of Rice, it's really difficult because as you say, you can't really drop him out of the team or rest him at this point in the tournament. So I guess maybe it comes down to just almost, sorry for making a Tottenham reference on this pod, but everyone talking about Ledley King back in the day saying he never used to train during the week. It was all recovery, recovery, recovery, recovery until game day. Maybe that has to be the way to go with him during this tournament because he's essential to this England team and you can't imagine what they would do without him.

10:38Even when you look at the DR Congo game, Obviously, Harry Kane took the headlines. But if you look at that first goal, it comes from that Arsenal triangle of Rice, Saka, and Eze pushing up that right-hand side. So you see the value going forward as well as going back. Well, yeah, his workload isn't going to end anytime soon. I mean, you mentioned Tottenham, and I don't like to talk about them, and you don't like to talk about them. But I understand why, particularly this week, people might be talking about them. and to sort of pivot just a little bit before we come back to some other World Cup stuff.

11:16They're making headlines this week because they're signing two midfielders. Sandro Tonali from Newcastle, Mateus Fernandes from West Ham. Tonali in particular, I think, is mind-blowing, eye-catching, however you want to classify it, because I think he's a good player, but we're now at a point where a good player is costing 92 million pounds and potentially 100 million pounds but i don't think there's much chance of tottenham paying the uh the add-ons for success uh so they can keep it below that 100 million pound mark but matthews fernandez 85 million pounds whatever it is we've seen elliot anderson go for 116 million pounds have you any sort of theories i mean tottenham they're just throwing money around because they have to because they finished 17th two years in a row i think and um they really do need to sort their shit out so they're willing and prepared to throw money around anderson 116 million pounds means nothing to manchester city as we know but this is a hugely hugely inflated market i mean i They're all decent players, but we're looking at the price of a decent player, not like a sure thing in the same way that Rice was when he came to Arsenal.

12:39We're looking at those prices going up and up and up and up and up now. And that's something Arsenal will have to contend with if they're going to go for Bruno Gimmaras from Newcastle. It won't be quite the same because he is older. He's 28 years of age, and that plays a part in what Newcastle can realistically ask for him versus Tonali, who's 26, and Mateus Fernandes, who's 21, 22, I think. So there are other elements of that. But it is a really interesting market in which to operate, particularly if you're buying from within the Premier League. You've got to be prepared to really dish out the cash.

13:17yeah so actually the so for people who are listening uh i was a little bit late to jump on today because i was writing something and it was actually to do with this uh conversation okay although the subject of the piece was bradley barcola okay uh because as um david ornstein wrote um at the start of the week psg feel like he's worth way more than the 116 million that Manchester City paid for Elliot Anderson. And it was kind of a look at, well, what is Bradley Barcola worth? And I had some help from a colleague, Chris Witherspoon, who is more into the finances and stuff. And I feel like we're getting to a point where almost every summer there is a deal that kind of sets a precedent for what follows.

14:11but you look at the top five let's say uh most expensive wingers in premier league history jack realish is number one uh 100 million for manchester city uh and then number two is anthony at 82 million and i think you see like sometimes as fans as you know i don't like to use the word but as consumers of the sport, we can all get quite hung up on fees and prices for players, but they're always going to rise. And it's not something that I feel great about, but I understand that there are going to be teams who will pay it. For instance, you look at Liverpool last summer, they paid over 100 million for two players.

15:05I think we're now in a situation where it is going to become a norm where, I guess, let's say 20 years ago, a good player would cost you maybe 15 million pounds. And let's say 10 years ago, a good player would maybe cost you up to between 30 and 45. Yeah. I mean, maybe the interest in Christos Solis tells us a little bit of something about how the market is going, where we're looking at a 24-year-old Greek international who played for Norwich and didn't really make the grade there, but has gone to Belgium. And, you know, I think with all due respect to any Belgian listeners, the Belgian Pro League is not as competitive, let's say, as the Premier League.

15:59And it's not as difficult as the Premier League. And much like the Eredivisie, you used to see players who bang in all these goals, the Matthias Kesmans of the world who bang in all the goals in the Eredivisie and come to England and just find it really, really difficult to do that. But, you know, which isn't to say that's going to be Solis is going to have a, you know, going to be an average player. He might be, might not be though. But you're still looking at 35, 40 million pounds for that player coming from that league with that sort of career trajectory. But it's interesting you mentioned Barcola because this was something I did want to talk to you about when it comes to Arsenal's transfer business this summer.

16:38does it feel to you because it does to me that arsenal kind of need like a big name signing and i don't mean just for the sake of it right yeah we won the league after 22 years we've been building this project for three four five six years now it's come to fruition and we got to the champions League final and we're a penalty shootout away from winning the Champions League. And this is a moment that we've spoken about where maybe Arsenal can really consolidate for the next two, three, four seasons, which doesn't mean we're going to win it every year, but we're in a position now where we have a really great chance of winning the league next year, the year after.

17:23It's going to be competitive. We all know that, but we're really strong now. and I feel like in seasons past when Arsenal have won the league one of the reasons why we have not been able to retain the title is that we didn't necessarily go as hard as we could have in the transfer market I went back to look at what we did in the transfer market of 2004 summer of 2004 and the players we brought in were Manuel Almunia a 20 year old Robin van Persie and Emmanuel Abue and I think maybe Matthew Flamini came in that year as well on a free transfer from Marseille now look I get it it's different times and we had a much better squad well I don't know yeah I mean listen it was a very very good squad back then but we didn't really add that sort of super player to the mix that people would have liked to see and I feel like this time around you know using the the pull that we have if that makes sense.

18:26It would feel a little bit disappointing if we weren't able to bring in a player of that kind. Do you know what I mean? It might be Barkola, it might be somebody else, but the same way that Declan Rice got people like, ooh, yeah, this is going to really make a difference to our team. I recognize you've got to make some squad signings. They can't all be 100 million, 100 million pound signings. Someone like Zalas, if he comes in, could be a really good squad player, but he's not going to get bums in seats, if that's the right way of putting it. So I'm curious as to how you view that aspect of this summer's transfer business.

19:02Yeah, I 100 % agree with you. And it's actually interesting. We did a little mailbag a couple of weeks ago just to get some reader questions in. And one was about kind of how do Arsenal go about the transfer business to try and retain the Premier League? So I have started to look into that a little bit to write about it maybe next week, I think. And as part of that, I'm trying to look at how not just Arsenal have behaved when they've won the league, similar to what you said in 2004. It obviously wasn't a mind-blowing summer window, but how teams who have retained the Premier League have behaved.

19:46and you look at Chelsea in 2005, they acted differently. They made big signings, some signings that people didn't feel like they needed to. I think Sean Wright Phillips was the one that got the most kind of heat, especially from an Arsenal perspective. But I also feel like you have to have balance with it. we've all seen what happened with Liverpool last year where they probably went to gung-ho so I think it needs to be a bit of a marriage between tweaking what you feel you need to improve which I feel Arsenal should be in a position where they feel that way because they lost the Champions League final it's not like they won the Premier League and were nowhere near winning the Champions League final They actually have the Champions League as a target for them that is attainable, which I think should keep them honest in relation to what you're talking about in the transfer market.

20:55And yeah, I'm in complete agreement that I feel like there does need to be a kind of heavy hitting signing, whether it's one or two and then a few other squad players. and also I just wanted to say as well in terms of fees the way the way everything's going it it just makes me feel like Christian Mascara for 13 million was just an outstanding piece of business like I can't remember the last time I'd seen you know a player of that quality cost so little money. But yeah, hopefully Arsenal have a few of those as well this summer. Yeah, I was going to just comment on that because it is the kind of business that when you are looking at what's going on in the Premier League, and we know how much Mikel Arteta values Premier League experience, right?

21:52And many of his signings have been from the Premier League. If you can snaffle a bargain or two from European clubs, from, I don't mean smaller European clubs, but European clubs who do not have the kind of financial firepower that Arsenal have if you've identified talent. And I think in Mosquera's case, didn't he have just like a year left on his contract, something like that? And Valencia had offered a deal and he became aware of our interest, you know, where it sort of lines up for you to be able to, I don't know if extract the maximum value from a deal is the right way to put it, but it feels like that.

22:33So we'll see what Andrea Berta has got lined up. Would Barcola be a signing that would tick that sort of important statement box for you? I think so. I do really like him. I know some people are quite critical of his finishing, but looking at the numbers across the season, he actually scores as many goals as he should when you look at the XG. So last season, he scored 11 goals in the league from 10.9 XG. And the season before, he scored 14 goals from 13.6 XG. So you're looking at someone who does, he does maybe miss chances you'd expect him to score, but then sometimes he'll make up for it with quite special strikes as well.

23:22So I also feel like when you look at his skill set and what he does outside of just scoring. The way he plays in terms of getting in behind, always looking to take his man on as well. I think that's something that Arsenal would really benefit from. I know some people wonder whether it could be done in the Premier League when teams are just sitting in low blocks, but I do feel like there are moments where Arsenal haven't been up against a low block and they could have dealt with the situation better on counterattacks, for instance, fast breaks where I've been sat at the Emirates and just felt like the team's almost jogged up the pitch rather than absolutely going for it.

24:10Yeah, I mean, that's something that I've been thinking about this summer is like, what do we add to this team that we don't already have or don't have enough of? And I really do feel like pace is one of those things where, you know, defenders are fast now and we have a little bit of pace, let's say, in the shape of Gabriel Martinelli. I don't think we've got any like absolute slow coaches or anything like that, but you don't play all your games in the Premier League as well. You know, you can play in Europe and you can open up those guys behind you. And I think certainly in that aspect of things, he brings qualities to the team that we could definitely be looking for.

24:51Where do you, you know, just sort of widening it out in terms of other players we've been linked with, you know, where do you feel like this week in what's happened in the Premier League with Anderson, with Tonali, with Fernandes? What do you think Aston Villa are going to make of that when it comes to someone like Morgan Rodgers? And, you know, is it possible that despite the fact they could very legitimately say, well, if Tonali is going for this and Fernandez is going for that and Elliot Anderson is going for this, we value Morgan Rogers that. Maybe there are other financial considerations for Aston Villa.

25:29Perhaps they need to balance the books and that might play a part in whatever happens. but it really does feel like it's probably complicated things a little bit. Arsenal would have expected, I'm sure, for this to be a challenging deal to do given the contractual situation. I think he's a contract till 2031 or something like that. So this isn't a guy you can get cheap because he's got 12 months left on his deal. So they would have known that anyway, but it's probably gone to a different level. Yeah, I think when you're looking at what PSG have come out with regarding Barcola, I'd be probably expecting similar from Aston Villa in terms of looking at the talent of the player, the age of the player, and you know big clubs are going to be the ones who are shopping for him.

26:23In terms of how, I guess, you go about getting that deal done, it also, I think, really stresses the importance of selling well. this summer uh when you're looking at that left wing area for arsenal in particular you have gabriel martinelli and leandro trossard who are both actually doing very well yeah they are yeah i'd say um i was thankful i wrote something about trossard uh on went out on wednesday morning uh and i mentioned he had created the most chances out of anyone in the group stages and thankfully he finally got an assist in the evening. And Martinelli showed again, he's a big player for big moments.

27:08So I think if you're Arsenal, you're kind of thankful they both are showing their best qualities in this time, because you can then say, okay, well, they're doing well. We want this much. I know what might hamper that slightly is the contractual situations. Trossard is a year I believe Martinelli is a year with an option but I do feel like getting as much money for those who if they do decide to sell one or the other or both is going to be really important and I know earlier in the summer David Ornstein reported they were wanting around 20 million for Jay-Z, I don't know how realistic that is now Not very I would have said it.

27:55But I do think that is part of the, I guess, that's part of the window that we still need to see Berta, you know, strut his stuff, if we want to put it that way. Yeah, yeah. Well, there's not much happening. There are things rumbling, of course, in the background. And, you know, so much of, you know, what might happen is informed by the World Cup and what's been happening at the World Cup. And listen, every single Arsenal player who went to the World Cup qualified for the knockout rounds. A few of them have gone home since, so we might talk a little bit about them. And we had a couple of questions from our Discord.

28:35And Count Swagula wants to know, do you think Jokeres getting a full preseason this time around will make a noticeable difference? I'm not sure it's going to be a full preseason because I think preseason starts on Monday for the players who aren't at the World Cup and who haven't been involved on international duty. And someone like Jokka Rez will probably get two, three weeks off after the tournament before they return. So it's going to be this weird, staggered return to action for many of these players. And it looks like quite a busy preseason as well with lots of games, Community Shield as well to take into account before it all kicks off again on August 21st.

29:16But do you think that might be a benefit to Jacarez because, you know, what happened last summer where he wasn't training, was doing his own fitness thing. I think he had a VHS, a yoga tape, and he was doing a bit in his apartment in Lisbon before it all happened. But, you know, I think it's quite interesting to consider that. And also maybe consider Kai Havertz, because if we accept that Gabriel Jesus is going to leave for whatever amount of money that that might be, and I suspect like you, it's not going to be very much. if we're being selfish Arsenal fans here, our German listeners, our Swedish listeners might have wanted their country to go further in the World Cup.

29:57But from our perspective as Arsenal fans, having those two sort of head back home, considering how important they're going to be, because I think you're looking at, you know, the two main strikers for next season, because I don't really expect Arsenal to sign, like, a striker that's going to come in and challenge either of those two. There might be somebody who comes in to play a bit of backup. I don't quite know what profile of player that would be. But I think for those two to be sort of off and on their holidays now and having a bit of a rest is no bad thing. Yeah, I think I have to look at it as a pair because they've gone out at the same time.

30:36And not only did Jokras have those kind of maybe teething issues that you alluded to, but Havertz got injured on the first day of the season last year and I think that had a real impact on how much football Jokeres was playing it was a lot of you know 80 90 minute games for him one after the other without any real respite and there was no there was no kind of you know difference in what he could do he he was quite one-dimensional at the start of the season whereas I think coming into next season having him and Havertz both getting three weeks off that they usually get um after major tournaments um I think you'll be able to not just get maybe one starting one game and the other starting the other but you also could use them together a little bit more as well like we saw at different points last season which i actually think gets the best out of jokeres because even in the world cup you saw him him playing alongside isak i think he's just able to you know take take a different type of space on the pitch and uh have someone around him who can just bounce the ball off of which is a lot easier to do than you know trying to occupy two center backs um when when that's not really your game even though you're big that that isn't your game really um so i do think it'll be quite nice for for them both to have a similar time off and then a similar you know um kind of grace period heading into the season do you have any sort of thoughts on what arson might do for that you know in inverted commas third striker because it is quite funny, we talk about the futures of Gabriel Martinelli and we talk about the future of Leandro Trossard.

32:39Those are conversations which have been ongoing for quite a while, right? Both of those players are viewed primarily as players who play on the left-hand side. But we've seen Trossard play as a center forward for Arsenal, a kind of false nine. We haven't really seen Gabriel Martinelli deployed in central areas in the way that some people might like and I sort of have this feeling about him when he is in those central areas that the more instinctive part of his game comes to the fore because when you receive the ball out on the left-hand side, you've got a defender in front of you. You might have two defenders in front of you.

33:19You've got to think about, right, what do I do here? Do I go inside? Do I go outside? It doesn't always work. Defenders are good. Wingers can't beat their man every time. I understand that but then you look at the goal Martinelli scored for Brazil quick touch bang into the goal wins the game for Brazil late on against Japan it reminded me not that it was the same kind of goal but it reminded me a little of the goal he scored against Manchester City which was his only Premier League goal last season where there was only one thing he could do in that moment right he got the ball came over from Eze and he could see the goalkeeper come out and there was only one finish that he could apply and he applied that finish he executed it perfectly in both of those goals is there a case to be made that maybe one of those players even if you're thinking about upgrading the left-hand side could be the de facto third striker as well at times or do arsenal need to sort of say well we've got everything we can out of trossard he's 31 we should get a few quid and reinvest that.

34:25That's how you sort of keep squads fresh. And Martinelli, if we're going to sell him, maybe now with two years left on his deal, we're not going to offer him a new one. Let's get value. He can go somewhere. A good World Cup can do it and we'll refresh that entire area. But you are sort of losing two left-wingers, but you're also losing two potential fill-in forwards, if that's the right way of putting it. Yeah, it's a really interesting conversation. And if I'm being totally honest, my head goes towards the second option and the reason for that isn't because I don't want to see either of them play there it's because I'm looking at the way Mikel Arteta has behaved over the past six years and he's hardly used as you say Martinelli as a nine from the start of a game and even last year I was actually quite surprised when looking back he didn't start Trossard as a nine once so even when jokeres and havertz and gabriel jesus was out he started with with mikhail marino because everyone knows uh i guess the qualities he brings to that position now but i still think there were maybe opportunities when that front line was quite light to use um trossard centrally and it it kind of weirded me out in a way that after like so many so many seasons where he had been used as a force knight and really effectively that all of a sudden he was just seen as a left winger so that's why in my head i don't know i don't know if arteta would um kind of go back to using him that way um but it feels like once once arteta's mind is made up Sure.

36:15It doesn't change. So yeah, for me, if I'm looking at that area, one person I would actually like to bring up in regards to that position is Ethan Moneri. Because I don't know if people remember, but there was a press conference, I think it would have been around Christmas in 2024, around New Year. So just before he had his first start against Brentford in the Premier League, and Arteta said he believes that Ethan could develop into a number nine. And it kind of shocked people a little bit. But I remember him saying it, I was like, oh, yeah, because when Ethan was in the under 18s during the FA Youth Cup run, I believe, Wilshere actually used him as a nine quite a bit.

37:15And the main reason that Arteta then gave was just because of his finishing ability. And I think everyone can see that that is probably Ethan's biggest strength. That and being able to, you know, get a yard on a defender as well. that the first couple of yards, he's really good at creating separation. So that's always kind of been in the back of my head, especially with the way that the right wing position has developed since he was playing there, obviously. Medvedeweke and Darwin getting more minutes there. And also Eze coming in as a number 10 with Odegaard too. So, but also part of me is saying that because I really don't want Warneri to leave on a permanent this summer.

38:04And if there's any way for him to be part of this team, I would love it. And I do think that could be a role for him to exploit if we use that term. I'm with you on one area. Like I recognize that maybe there's a bit more development required, certainly in the mind of Mikel Arteta. I don't want to say he hasn't had a fair chance, but I think we can all see that there is something there. And if there's a way of finding a good loan deal this summer, then I'd be happier with that, you know, to see him go and play a year of Premier League football rather than go to France where it just didn't work out for whatever political and footballing reasons.

38:52It just did not work out for him there. Clubs know and managers know and they have to make decisions and I get it and there's always an element of risk, but I'd love to see him play a year in the Premier League while he's still an Arsenal player where if it goes really well, we go, ooh, you know what? That's fucking great. I also think perhaps there is some need to generate revenue this summer. And I get that if you're a Hayland graduate, then, you know, what was Miles's little thing? Pure profit, you know. I think that might be a factor when it comes to how the club are viewing things. I suppose the other thing to say, by the way, is you mentioned it there, is that maybe the de facto third striker is Mikkel Marino.

39:39and that if the midfield reinforcements are strong enough, then it allows you to use Marino there if you absolutely need him. You might also argue that perhaps with Jokeres, with Havertz, with Marino, a slightly different style of player might be required up front or might be good up front. But those are questions for Mikel Arteta. Here's a question from Shatner's Bassoon who says, Maybe it's because I've been conditioned by Mikael, but I've been thinking about fullbacks. Does the demand on the position in today's game make it more inevitable that they sustain more injuries than other players?

40:20Look at England, for example. And if so, do we need a battery of fullbacks to rotate them through the season like cricket teams use fast bowlers instead of being tied to the choice of first choice and backup? I thought it was fascinating, by the way, that England took Livermento and Rhys James and left Trent Alexander-Arnold out of the squad entirely. James and Livermento have had serious injuries. I think if you're going to sort of look at someone like Jed Spence and say, well, he can be the guy who fills in. Maybe he's a bit defensively suspect. well if you have worries about Trent Alexander-Arnaud's defensive work which I understand surely the fact that he's absolutely fucking brilliant when he crosses the halfway line gives him the edge over someone like Jed Spence but like you know that's just my ad hoc analysis of the England squad but I mean what do you make of that with regards fullbacks and there's obviously spotlight on that when it comes to the right back position in particular for Arsul with Ben White and Jurian Timber both dealing with injury issues at this moment in time?

41:26I definitely think it's a valid point and it's something that I've kind of alluded to in pieces over the years, not just with Ben White and Drew and Timber, but going back to Takeiro Tomiyasu. And again, I don't want to say it's an Arsenal thing because it happens at a lot of clubs. But when you're sat there in the stadium and you can see the right back or the left back, sprinting let's say almost almost up to the final third and it's not because they're part of an attack it's because they're pressing they're pressing let's say the opposition left back because maybe say Saka's pressing a right back so they're sprinting that high up the pitch but then they also have to get sprint back to make recovery tackles make recovery runs um on their own like goal line or near the corner flag i think that is probably the most demanding area on the pitch in modern football um alongside central midfield obviously um but i do think it does take a toll when you are putting your body through that much intense running um and i don't think it's a coincidence that you get so many injuries uh to players who play in that position because there is just so much that is required of them in yeah in in such a high intensity game and yeah i don't know if we get to a point where you almost reverse it back and teams stop pressing so much because of the injury risks i don't know it feels like we're probably too far gone at this point and everyone's just going to press press press press press forever um i do wonder if there will ever be kind of like a breaking point in general again i'm not trying to make it an arsenal thing it's more a football um thing in general because you see it happen across the Premier League.

43:34I mean, Tottenham as well had their issues, not just with fullbacks, but with centre-backs under Ange and how demanding their roles were. I do think sometimes less is more. Sometimes, but it doesn't seem to happen because you can even see at this World Cup in terms of how, in inverted commas, smaller teams are playing that the sort of high energy, physical aspect of the game these days is just baked in. And, you know, there's no getting away from that. And obviously we'll wait and hear, and hopefully hear, good news about Timber and White. Timber in particular, who we haven't heard anything about.

44:13And there was some sort of vague stuff about a rehab plan that he mentioned when he left the World Cup. A player that we have been mentioning, because there's talk of Kepa Arizabalaga leaving the club. And I think it was James who reported that the clause, the release clause we signed him for five million pounds um and that seemed like a bargain uh you know price for a player of his experience but it was predicated on the fact that there was a release clause where he could leave for the exact same fee um so he might well go and he might well go and play first team football a player who we've been linked with to come in and replace him as a a more experienced number two is Leeds, Elan Melier, who, you know, was a young goalkeeper who made a breakthrough.

45:01And then, I don't know if you hit a wall or you make, you make just one too many mistakes and faith is undermined in you. Where do you stand on the number, the number two goalkeeper thing? Like, do you need a Kepa where if something happens to David Raya, you're not absolutely and utterly diminished by, a sort of downgrade for want of a better term? Or is it a case that, I remember when Arsenal won the league in 2003, 2004, it was Jens Lehmann and Graham Stack. And Graham Stack didn't play a single game that season. You know, in the Champions League or the Premier League, you rely on your goalkeeper to stay fit.

45:41You know, it is a tricky position to fill. It's one you need to sort of think about almost every summer. Yeah, I'd be more inclined to go, the let's say the kepper melier route um or root that was really weird i don't know why that's that's the new york times coming out of the yard um but yeah i'd be more uh secure with that i think what's really i guess the headache comes when michael arteta decides to buy two number ones which he's done more than once i mean everyone lost their mind when it was David Raya and Aaron Ramsdale but I think they forget that Aaron Ramsdale did the same thing to Bert Leno who had he might did Leno might have won player of the season a couple years beforehand as well or he was in the running definitely in the running so yeah I just hope that if when Kepa goes there is a clear distinction as there should be between David Raya, the number one, and whoever comes in.

46:51They know that they're not going to be used in most games. They'll just be here and there in the Carabao Cup, potentially. And everyone knows their role, basically. I wouldn't want to, you know, risk might not be the right word, but I wouldn't want to just have a body there. Does it save a manager a decision to make if and when you get to a cup final where you go, okay, you know, listen, I don't think Kepa's anywhere near as good as David Raya, but I could sort of vaguely get my head around why Mikel Arteta made the decision he did. Even if I didn't agree with it, I can understand why he made that decision.

47:31Whereas, you know, in the past, for example, Arsene Wenger played David Seaman in a cup final when he hadn't really played any of the games up to that because, well, he's by far your best goalkeeper. So maybe you just play the best guy. Yeah, I think if we get to another cup final or two next season, actually, let's just keep it at the cups because we know who's going to play if it's a Champions League final. Sure. I do think Arteta would do the same. I just feel like, especially, I know you mentioned Arsene Wenger there, but when Arteta was a player at Arsenal in the 2014 cup final, Fabianski played I think Ospina played in I'm not sure if it was 2015 or No, no, Ospina was Ospina took over as number one from Chesney in like early 2015 because he got caught smoking or whatever but Chesney, he was the number one in the Premier League and then Chesney played in the final against Aston Villa Yeah, so he's kind of been around that situation before So as you say, even if we don't agree with it, you can understand why he's done that.

48:45And I don't think there'd be, you know, a world where he doesn't do that. Just because, as you say, he's very set in his ways. Well, we'll see. Maybe that's a bridge that we can cross when we come to it. There's Arsenal involvement today in the World Cup. Our Spanish contingent could play. Zubimendi and Raya yet to feature in the tournament, but Michel Marino started the last game he could play this evening when they face Austria. speaking of Spaniards there was a bit of news today a former Arsenal player Santi Cazorla who's retired from the game at the age of 41 I just thought it might be interesting to to talk about him for a couple of minutes because he was such an amazing player such a brilliant footballer technically who sort of defied the the modern physical demands of the game in a way because he was small and, you know, the athlete variety of footballer has become more and more prevalent, right?

49:53Because, as we just said, the physical demands of the game are such these days that, you know, to give yourself the best possible chance of playing well and achieving things in the game, if you're an athlete, it really helps. But that wasn't Santi Cazorla's greatest strength. He also is a little bit of a throwback to, listen, I don't want to say this about every modern footballer because I'm generalizing and it's not the case. But when footballers were kind of fun and he was a little bit of a character on top of all of that, it's only 2018 when he left Arsenal. Obviously he had those injury problems, so we didn't see enough of him in the time that he spent in red and white.

50:36But an amazing player and an amazing career really when you consider where he started. And where he ended. Yes, yeah, of course. Obviously getting promotion with Real Oviedo again last season. I feel like he's someone that when you look back at Arsenal in that era, he obviously was a lot of people's favourite, but he was also very early on the kind of Twitter wave. so one of my like memories of him is so for my my first North London derby that I went to was in 2013 and it was the day before Arsenal signed Ozil so Bale had already left Tottenham and obviously everyone was singing about that I was sat in the clock end and Giroud scored the only goal and um at the time kazula on twitter would like arts fans to send pictures from the game and uh he would retweet some so so thankfully this they were celebrating right in front of me and i took a picture of my blackberry the quality is absolutely terrible um but i i added him and i sent the picture and that was the first time like i had any like any sort of interaction with a professional footballer sure um and yeah i was just like oh my god oh my god oh my god um but yeah in terms of um what he i think what he represents as a footballer is just pure football um and as you say andrew i think the game is really missing players like that uh in today's age and when we speak about the physical demands part of what i i was kind of maybe alluding to in terms of when is there going to be like a game breaker or something that you know just breaks the mold is also when is there going to be a play like that that doesn't just you know abide by all the rules does something a bit off the cuff and to be fair one of them is Ryan Shirky and I don't care if most Arsenal fans hate him now I still love him because he is such a free spirit um and yeah i think you had that with cazola left foot right foot always a joy to watch and yeah you just wish he had a full season to go out on um because i mean his last two years at the club were really really hard for him to go through well yeah i mean the injuries i mean i i think you know one of the things that maybe we don't talk enough about and it's a word that's thrown around a lot about professional football is mentality, right?

53:30There's a really brilliant piece by Sid Lowe, an interview with Santi Cazorla. I'll put it in the show notes so people can go and have a read of it. And it lays bare the injury issues that he had. And it started with like a little ankle injury that he picked up for Spain playing for Chile. And then people will remember it was against Ludogratz at the Emirates where he had to come off at halftime, or maybe he had to come off in the first half the pain was just too much he had surgeries his his ankle kept getting infected it was eating away at his tendon he had a piece of his he had a piece of his arm grafted onto his ankle there i think he had a tattoo with his daughter's name on his arm and it's now part of that is on his ankle um and doctors were saying to him yeah you should just actually concentrate on being able to walk again and maybe have a little walk around the garden with your son.

54:26And that's how serious this was. And he came back and he played for Villarreal. He left Arsenal. Arsenal, I think, as they have done in the past, did something that not all clubs will do, which is extend a contract. They gave him a year's contract so that when he had the operation, he had the safety net of that. And I think that's something really quite special about the way Arsenal operate. They've done it before and they'll do it again, I'm sure. But this was so serious for Santi Cazorla. And then he ended up going back to Villarreal, went to play in Qatar, and then goes to play for Ray Loviedo, which is a club he grew up supporting, helped them get promoted to La Liga, which I think extended his career by another year.

55:11You know, he couldn't just retire having got them there. But to be still playing at 41, when in your 30s, doctors are saying, you'll be lucky if you can walk. I mean, genuinely, the word amputation was thrown around. So, you know, for all the talk about him being a fun character and there's all the things that he used to do for Arsenal.com and, you know, the Australian one, which is just so funny. You know, he's a really funny, genuine guy. There is a strength of character and a strength of will there that saw him overcome something, which I'm not sure every player would have been able to. No, and a lot of people, I guess, are pointing out, oh, Cristiano Ronaldo's 41 at this World Cup, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

55:57But I think when you see someone go through the extent of injuries that Santi did come through and still played to 41, it adds something, I guess, much more weighty, I feel. um and it is i think part of it also would have been he what would have wanted to make up for the years he would have lost of course yeah yeah i feel um and not just kind of bow out and give up and say okay this injury's got the better of me um let's call it a day and i think for him to prove to himself more than anyone because even though we all love him our opinions don't matter as much to him as his own opinion so I think for him to prove to himself at such such an age and again get back to La Liga and do what he's done is exceptional and yeah hopefully I know he's been know the Emirates loads of times since leaving Arsenal but hopefully he gets to come back again and everyone can give him that warm welcome because he he didn't I know as I said he's been there again but he didn't get a proper goodbye yeah he didn't get a chance to say goodbye properly um and I know there's always been lots of talk about him coming back to Mikel Arteta's coaching staff and Arteta sort of always played that with a bit of a straight back you know but they have a good relationship um from from the time he arrived and Arteta I think took him under his wing, you know, with regards settling into London and the language and all those kinds of things.

57:37So they have a great relationship. It all depends what Santi Cazorla wants to do. He might want to take a year off and just relax because he has worked very, very hard at his career. But, you know, whatever happens, we wish him the very best with his retirement and whatever comes next, wherever that might be. Right. We better leave it there. Art, it's been a pleasure as always. Thanks so much for being with us. Thanks for having me again.

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58:35Thank you very much indeed to Art, and you can find him writing about Arsenal very well, as always, in The Athletic. The last bit, I think it's the last bit, of Arsenal round of 32 World Cup action is tonight when Spain take on Austria. So Raya, Zubimendi, and Marino, the players involved there. I'm going through the rest of the round of 32 fixtures. We've got some ex-Arcel with Granit Xhaka. Portugal, Croatia, nothing there. Australia, Egypt, nothing there. Argentina, Cape Verde, nothing there. Although we're all blue sharks in this part of the world at this moment in time. And then it's Colombia again.

59:21And then we're into round of 16 games. So let's see what the Spanish contingent do in their game against Austria this evening. We'll talk about that on the blog over the next few days as well. And you can join myself and James for an Arsecast Extra on Monday, as always. For now, though, thank you so much, as always, for being here. And thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing, and supporting everything that we do on Arseblog. We really do appreciate it. I hope your summer's going all right wherever you are in the world. For now, take it easy, folks, and we will catch you on the next one.

1:00:08I'm out.

1:00:31Thank you.