Episode 883 - Central midfielders are expensive

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0:56Kaya Kaynak: Hello and welcome to a brand new Arse Blog, Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. Right now, we are experiencing something I believe they call summer here in Dublin. The temperatures have been glorious. I know there are parts of Europe which are unbearably hot, but thankfully, we don't tend to get the extremes here in Ireland. It never gets like 40 degrees in the summer, and it never gets to sort of minus 10 or 20 or any bullshit like that in the winter, but it's been a very pleasant week. I've been enjoying it, sitting in the garden mostly, cooking food on the barbecue or the grill, whatever you call it, the Weber thing, you know, you put the charcoal in and light it and then just cook food, you know, man, fire, meat, food, that kind of thing.

1:45Kaya Kaynak: But of course, with a bit of salad to make it healthy and catching some rays as well. But of course, with factor, you know, I grew up in a time when as soon as the sun was out, people would literally cover themselves in suntan oil and lie there just sort of sizzling away. You know, you think about Ray Winston in Sexy Beast, just kind of that. Nobody needs that. We don't need the pink man, the pink men who go around often wearing a kind of pink shirt as well. So the shirt matches the tan in inverted commas. Anyway, look, it's just been very nice and I'm enjoying the little bit of weather and a little bit of a kind of quieter time when it comes to what we do here on Arseblog.

2:30Kaya Kaynak: The summer months have been, you know, a little less hectic for obvious reasons. The World Cup is keeping us going. There's been plenty going on, obviously, on the pitch and off the pitch, but we're now heading towards the final stages. The first quarterfinal takes place tonight. William Saliba could be involved for France. We're going to talk about him because there's a bit of worry about him and his injury, his back problem. Le Keep doing some reporting there, which doesn't sound particularly promising. So we'll talk about William Saliba. We'll talk about the Arsenal players who are still at the World Cup and the games that they still have to play.

3:02Kaya Kaynak: There's a bit of transfer stuff going on as well with the goalkeeper linked very strongly and a certain Brazilian who is dividing opinion, I think. It's been quite interesting to see a lot of people who would welcome the signing of Bruno Guimaraes, but, you know, quite a few people who remember him elbowing Jorginho in the back of the head. and don't really want anything to do with him. But it seems very obvious that he is a player that Arsenal are pursuing this summer. How that might play out, of course, is another question. And one of the questions that we will deal with and deal with right now.

3:37Kaya Kaynak: So let's just get on with the show. And with me today, delighted to welcome back, it's Kaya Kainak. Hello, Kaya. Hey, Andrew, how you doing? I'm doing all right. Thank you very much indeed. I'm coping with the heat. I'm sure it's a little more difficult for you over there in London. It's a bit hotter than it is here. Yeah, it's tough. My Turkish jeans are letting me down at the minute, I have to say. Well, blame the parents. I don't know what else we can do in a situation like that. Anyway, hopefully you'll stay cool enough to talk about all the stuff that's going on. And I guess we should start with the Bruno Gimaraes story.

4:13Kaya Kaynak: And that is via David Ornstein yesterday evening. the player has told Newcastle he wants to leave and join Arsenal which is I you know a significant development there are aspects of this I guess that we can get into I suppose the one that occurs to me first is that this is probably and it's happened as we know without direct club to club contact. So whatever's going on is going on between agents and intermediaries and everything else. My suspicion is that Newcastle are not unaware of his desire to leave and join Arsenal. Therefore, when it goes public, it's sort of like the player not forcing their hand, but like I just can't imagine this was the first Newcastle will have heard of his desire to go.

5:12yeah yeah it seems unlikely and newcastle have had a weird summer so far where a lot of the players who have kind of been the cornerstones of the project they're trying to create have left and obviously anthony gordon's gone sandra tonali's gone last summer um alexander isak eventually left and it's kind of bad news for newcastle tino livermento has been heavily linked with an exit lewis hall's been linked with an exit basically anyone who you look at in that newcastle team and think, oh, I quite like the look of him. It's kind of a link with a move because they're outside of Europe. All those players should be playing European football.

5:46And you look at that squad and you think, yeah, I kind of understand if I'm Bruno Gimaraes and I'm 28, nearly 29 years old, I understand why he's thinking, well, I'm not sure I want to hang around while they rebuild to get back maybe into the Champions League this season, maybe into the Europa League this season. I don't know that that's the level he wants to be competing at, I think at his age, he's probably thinking, well, I want to go for titles. And it's difficult for Newcastle because it puts them in a tricky position because they've had to sell players this summer because of – it's not called PSR anymore.

6:20I forget what the new term is. FSP or whatever. Because of money, basically, as we know. And the Tonali and Gordon sales have kind of put them in a position now, has been reported on The Athletic, that they're kind of okay on that front. They're not like completely out of the woods, but they're okay. They don't need another big sale. But for them, they don't want to be the Borussia Dortmund. They want to be the Bayern Munich, right? That's their long-term aim, is not to be the stepping stone club. It's to be the club that players dream of ending up at for their final destination. And that's a big issue if you're last summer allowing Alexander Isat to leave and this summer allowing Bruno Gimaraes to leave.

6:57So I think even though they may have heard whispers of Bruno saying, listen, I think I'm going to explore my options this summer if a team comes in for me i i want to go i i understand why that probably strengthens their resolve and they think well no you're you're not going you're i think he's he's the captain now that jamal has left you're our most important player probably one of our best players was probably best player now that so many players have left you're not gonna go you're kind of the last one and he's kind of being it's put him in a very difficult position and yeah it's it's a tricky one for Newcastle.

7:36I'm sure they'll be aware of it, as you say. I'm sure they'll have seen it coming. But I kind of think it puts them in a slightly impossible position, particularly with the Alexander-Isak stuff last summer where they eventually showed they are willing to sell.

7:48Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, I mean, I think this has sort of the hallmarks of a sort of protracted saga for me. You know, the idea that listen, you could say on the one hand Newcastle last summer with the Alexander-Isak thing could have learned a lesson about how they approach a situation like this. Like, it wasn't good for Newcastle. It wasn't good for Alexander Ezek. It wasn't good for Liverpool either. It wasn't good for anybody that that thing played out. But I think expecting football clubs to learn lessons and act rationally when things like this are hugely emotive, right? We've been there as Arsenal fans. We've been there where our best player, our captain, has said, I want to go somewhere where I think I can win trophies.

8:34Kaya Kaynak: And that's a painful thing to accept as fans, also as a football club. Maybe Arsenal will, if you look back on it, be seen to have approached those situations and said, well, look, what can we do? We have to accept that this is the will of the player. We're going to let them go, however painful it is, et cetera, et cetera. The player tends to get what they want in situations like this. But I can also understand that having gone through this last summer with Izak and ultimately, in inverted commas, lost, that Newcastle might think, well, we're not going to make this easy for Arsenal. I don't think they should make it easy for Arsenal, right?

9:15Kaya Kaynak: Why should they? They've got money in the bank now from Tonali and Gordon. They have Gimmarais under contract. He's 28 years of age. I think that might play a part in their ultimate decision. but I do think when your captain, when your best player says, I want to go, if you're not inclined to sell already, it might just make you a little more entrenched in that regard. So to what extent is it incumbent on Arsenal to make this not a saga? Because I think Newcastle have to try and save face, if that's the way you want to put it, to protect their reputation as a selling club, to not be the guys who get walked over all the time, even if when it comes right down to it, they've got a load of money for Rezac.

10:02Kaya Kaynak: They've got ridiculous money for Tonali. They've got good money for Anthony Gordon. So they're actually selling at a decent level. But if the hits keep coming, there comes a point where as a football club, you kind of have to at least be seen to dig in. So that's going to be the challenge for Arsenal and Andrea Berta, isn't it that they have to they have to avoid a situation where a player that that Arsenal are probably going to need in the early part of the season is ready for the early part of the season and hasn't been sitting around not doing pre-season training because I think we see no matter how dedicated a player is and how much work they do on their own it has an impact.

10:43Kaya Kaynak: Isaac went to Liverpool he looked like a pencil you know you just you have to avoid that situation right? Yeah, yeah. I think we want Bruno Gimeraj looking at least like a pen by the time he turns up at Arsenal. I think there's no coincidence that this story has re-emerged just after Brazil have gone out of the World Cup. That's what we suggest to Arsenal. And now that his focus is away from Brazil, it's just on trying to get that move. And looking back to club football, I think Arsenal have thought, right, this is the time where we go for it. And I agree with you, it's in Arsenal's interest for this not to be drawn out, for it not to take too long.

11:16And like we said, it's probably in Newcastle's interest for it not to take too long as well, either if it's in a position of strength where they come out saying, look, we're not going to sell our best players, or if it's in a position where they eventually let him go. I think if Arsenal want to avoid a protracted transfer saga, then they should probably avoid what I think is, quite frankly, a cheeky offer of£60 million. I don't think that's the player's worth at all. I think£50 plus£10, I think, was the breakdown. I think he's worth more than that, particularly when we explained all the factors earlier around why it's important for Newcastle not to sell him he's got two years left on his deal he's a club captain he's their best player he said stuff like I want to have the same legacy as Alan Shearer in Newcastle so Newcastle have cards to play in this one whereas in the Alexander Isak deal last summer they didn't really have the same cards to play because he'd kind of reached an end point I know he was on a long contract but they needed to move him on eventually and I think everyone could see where it was going So I think if Arsenal want to do it, they probably need to, A, submit a formal bid rather than doing the verbal through agents and intermediaries thing.

12:21I know that's how transfers are conducted these days. But I think they need to put in a bid that's probably closer to the player's value and maybe not try. I know it's in Arsenal's interest to try and get him as cheap as possible. Newcastle sell as high as possible. That's how this works. But I think 60 million is slightly undervaluing the player and particularly for central midfielders. and I know you said Tonali, crazy money, 100 million, but we're doing a video on this on TIFO actually at the minute about why central midfield is worth so much more now. And you see Elliot Anderson going for 116 million, I think.

12:53And we all look at those kind of figures and we go, that's insane money, that's crazy. And Enzo Fernandez was 105 million, Declan Rice was 105 million, Moises Caicedo was, I think, 115. So these kind of transfers are becoming more common. And the reason they're so much more common is because midfielders who can do the role of one or two or three players rather than just a defensive midfielder or an attacking midfielder. We look at Decan Rice's stats last season and he's in the top 90 percentile for chances created for interceptions and all the things that make us love him so much. And I think Bruno Gimaraes falls into that similar level of player, similar category of player who can put in lots of tackles, be that sort of gritty midfielder, but also get forward and support the attack and score goals, which is definitely something Arsenal need from midfield because I don't think they got it enough last season.

13:40So I understand from Newcastle's perspective why they're thinking, well, listen, I want to try and sell this guy for big money. I don't want to let him go. So, yeah, if Arsenal want to get him, then I guess the quickest way is to put in a bid that I think is significantly higher than 80. I know Newcastle, I mean, there's talk going around that they've quoted similar to 100 mil, that that's kind of what they want, reports that are out there. I don't think it's that high. But I think somewhere closer to the 70, 75, 80 mark, I think then you can start to speed things up a little bit.

14:13Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, it is fascinating to look at the fees and to think about what a player is worth. I think obviously the difference between Rice, Enzo Fernandes, Moises Caicedo, well, the difference between Rice and those two is he's not an absolute wanker. But the age profile of those players, I think Rice is 24 when he moved. Caicedo, Fernandes were younger when they moved. Elliot Anderson is still quite young. So you do have to take into account the age of Bruno Gimaraes. He's 28 and he turns 29 in November. So, you know, that's a factor in terms of what they can ask. I mean, just sort of on that before we maybe talk about what he might bring to Arsenal, if he does arrive, is part of the increased fees and prices for these central midfield players, is there an element of scarcity to that in that the number of standout players is maybe smaller than it was years ago?

15:21Like those guys who can do, as you say, can do those roles, they're sort of few and far between in the sense of like, we had a comment the other day, for example, on Arsbog News and someone said, you know what, it's about time this club started

15:37Kaya Kaynak: producing world-class strikers from the academy. and I was like wow world-class strikers like if you've got one world-class striker out of your academy that's like needle in a haystack stuff you know that is just so so rare so is there an element maybe of these players being a bit more rare in in the current market or in the the football world the way the game is being played at this moment in time yeah I mean to be fair to the Arsenal Academy they did produce Harry Kane as we all know so that's helpful and that's one world-class striker down um yeah there's not many world-class strikers generally around but i also think yeah there's not many midfielders who can do what um deck and rice and bruno do and i think the fact that arsenal going this hard on a player like bruno suggests they're slightly fearful of what's going to happen to deck and rice next season and they may be learning their lesson from pakao saka a few years ago where he'd been on the back of i think he'd just come off the euros where England got to the final and he played obviously every game for Arsenal and every game for England and he was completely knackered and eventually he broke down and his hamstring tore off the bone and I don't think he's ever quite got back to that level since and he's had Achilles injuries since and all that kind of stuff and at the time when Saka went down injured the backup was Raheem Sterling who was not of the level that Arsenal needed so I understand why they're going for someone like a Bruno and I think also as well as the dearth of elite level quality I think it kind of comes from the fact that when you're winning league titles and challenging for Champions League, suddenly you're shopping on the top shelf.

17:13You're no longer looking for a bargain basement. So I think, let's say, in the summer where Arsenal spent money on Ben White and Martin Odegaard and Nuno Tavares and Aaron Ramsdale, and that's somewhere they signed six under-23 players. I think we'd seen this deal for a 28, 29-year-old and we saw a price tag of 60 to 80 million. I think back then we would have thought, oh, I'm not sure. I think that's probably not what we need to do. Whereas now Arsenal are challenging for big trophies. And when you want players who can come in and help you sustain that level, the demands required are so much higher than they have been before.

17:52Arsenal aren't building to anything. They're there. So when you're in that sort of final destination, it's incumbent on you as a club to try and assign players who will be able to help you sustain the level. And Bruno Gimreich, for me, falls into that category. I look around the rest of the transfer market at players who are available. Yeah, like you say, there doesn't seem to be too much out there. I do think there is an argument for Arsenal. And for me, when I first heard the Bruno news, my first thought was protective of Myles Lewis-Skelly, who for me was one of the men of the match, if not the man of the match in the Champions League final just a month or so ago.

18:31Mikel Moreno has come back and has been always really reliable for Arsenal. Martin Zubemendi had a poor second half of the season. It wasn't terrible by any stretch of the imagination. I thought he was actually very good in the first half of the season as well. And he seems to be having a bit of a rest with Spain where he's barely playing. So I think Arsenal are actually relatively well stocked in that position. It's interesting they're going so hard to try and get someone in it, which to me suggests that they're fearful of not being. But yeah, there's not that many players who can fit the role.

18:59Like you say, there is a lack of elite, elite level talent. And I think we're maybe seeing this at the World Cup where I've not watched a team except maybe France and thought, wow, this is a top, top, top team. Every team looks like they have a few floors. And yeah, it's kind of slim pickings out there. But listen, that only forces the price up even more, which is a problem for us.

19:23Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, sure. I mean, I saw a report this morning doing the rounds. I don't know how accurate it is. It doesn't feel accurate, but it says about Declan Rice, Bakayo, Saka, William Salih, but not expected to be available for Arsenal until the first international break or after the first international break, which seems like a lot of football to miss, although it's only three or four weeks. But that might depend, obviously, on the individual situations that they have. Saka, as we know, nursing the Achilles. Rice, absolutely exhausted. And Saliba has a back problem, which I want to ask you about in a few minutes.

19:58Kaya Kaynak: I do think that question about central midfield is fascinating, though, because there are so many options right now for Arsenal. We're being linked with Morgan Rodgers, who many people will say he's going to play on the left. But I do think he's such a dynamic player that centrally, you sort of see him being able to deliver more because of his ability to go both ways rather than sort of park him out on the wing. And there is a left winger obviously being linked with Arsene Christos Solis from Club Bruges is expected to sign. But when you imagine Bruno gets done, imagine that signing happens and we do find a price with Newcastle and everybody's happy it gets done.

20:42Kaya Kaynak: Arsenal have Bruno Guimaraes, they have Declan Rice, they have Martin Zubamendi, They have Mikel Marino. They have Eber Echieza. They have Miles Lewis-Skelly. They have Martin Odegaard. Potentially Morgan Rodgers in there as well. Am I forgetting somebody? There's Ethan Warneri who's in there. Yeah. You know? Is that... Norgard as well still at the club. Yeah, I do expect Christian Norgard to move on, though, to be fair. But, you know, even with that, is that something you look at and think, okay, there are too many cooks in there and maybe the broth gets spoiled? or is it a case that over the course of a season if you are managing post-World Cup players after a long season where you have to sort of bring a fresh impetus to to go again after winning the Premier League right to defend the title that's a very very significant challenge and not one that Arsenal have been able to do in the modern era is it a case that you just need those players you need that level of depth that when you get to March, April, May of next year, if you want to go all the way in the Premier League and do one better in the Champions League, that is the level of depth and quality that you need in an era where the demands on players are so high, squad sizes are not going to get any bigger for next season.

22:00Kaya Kaynak: So your 25 needs to be as strong and full of depth as it can possibly be? Yeah, we remember as Arsenal fans, I mentioned it earlier, the Bukayo Saka, for years before Nani Maduweke came in, there was no real backup of the level. There was Reece Nelson playing there, Gabriel Marcelli would sometimes switch over to the right, Raheem Sterling was a bit of a disaster, Ethan Wynary played there in times and spells, and none of it really works. And I remember seasons being derailed by the fact that when Gabriel Jesus got injured, the backup was Eddie Nketiah. And, you know, we'll love Eddie for what he did at Arsenal, but he wasn't of the level to sustain a title challenge.

22:41And you look now and you think, you know, touch wood, none of those stories that you mentioned are true. But if there's no Saliba, Saka and Raito, for my money, are three of the best players in their positions in the world, there's a big drop-off and a big sort of deficit to maintain. I guess the question is, with players like Rodgers and stuff, with all of Arsenal's signings pretty much in this project, if you like, since Mikel Arteta came in, I've kind of, in my mind, when they've come in, been able to see where they fit. So Gabriel comes in. I think, yeah, okay, Arsenal need a left side sense back.

23:15That makes sense. Deacon Rice comes in. Perfect. Granit Xhaka's on his way out. That makes perfect sense. Last summer, Arsenal need a sense forward. Victor Yokeres comes in. That makes perfect sense. So many transfers like that where you think, yeah, okay, that fits. I think the first transfer where that stopped making sense to me was the Eberreche Eza transfer. And I was so happy that it happened and all the euphoria narrative around it that I was kind of able to put that to one side. And it didn't really bother me that much. And there was the questions of, you know, how exactly will he fit? Where exactly will he play?

23:48Because he played kind of that left central role for the Palace last season. I don't think except for the game at the S. He hadn't really saw him play that for Arsenal last year. so this Morgan Rodgers transfer fits into the same thing as me for me sorry and I can't help but feel a little nervous about that and I know there'll be people who are listening who think what are you talking about the the way you sustain the level is having as many great players as possible many top level players as possible and look at how Man City have done it over the years and look at how Chelsea did it when they were challenging for titles and you know there's there's teams all over the world who, who are challenging for Premier Leagues and Champions, the leagues and Champions Leagues.

24:28And the way they are able to sustain it across multiple formats is to have quality players. You can come in when players get injured and we're seeing across the world, not just in the Premier League, that more and more players are getting injured because the games are ridiculous right now. And thanks to people like Gianni and Fantino, that doesn't look like it's going to change anytime soon. So yeah, you need a level of depth. You need a level of quality and you need a level of variability. as well, just from a tactical perspective. You look at the Premier League last season, so many teams were able to match to the top level when it comes to that man-for-man stuff.

25:00And we had so many difficult kind of dull games as Arsenal fans watching them where teams were able to match us or low block us. And how do you cope with that? You come up with various different solutions. And for me, Morgan Rodgers is a perfect low block breaker because he can smash the ball in from 30 yards quite well and does it quite a lot for Aston Villa. That's the ultimate low block deceiver is if you have someone who can smash it in from a long way out. So that's a fantastic signing. I'm really excited about it if it does end up happening. I just have questions about where it fits. And you mentioned squad size is not improving.

25:31Mikel Arteta spoke about how he wanted benches to increase last season. And he referenced Norgard, who didn't massively impress and wasn't hugely important for Arsenal last season on the pitch. Off the pitch, I think he had a big influence and lots of players have said he was a real leader. But I think he spoke a lot about the players' mental health. and for them, like you mentioned yourself, not being involved in a squad despite training all week, despite training to a high level that you need to be able to train at to even get onto the training pitch at London Coley at Arsenal, you're not even in the squad.

26:06And I think that has a massive emotional toll on players and after a while I think it's going to have a big impact and I don't think I see it changing. I do worry about footballers' mental health when I see them not being left in the squad and some people will say I'm being too sympathetic and Arsenal need to not think like that, But when you're stockpiling loads and loads and loads of players, I do worry. My preference is always for a slightly slimmer but high-quality squad. And, you know, for years Pep Guardiola has spoke of the benefits of that at Manchester City. It doesn't look like Arsenal are trending in that direction.

26:37If anything, it looks like they're trending in a beefier squad.

26:41Kaya Kaynak: Yeah. I mean, I think that's quite a conscious decision as well. Because, you know, the point you make there about Arteta talking about bigger squads, It was about like for players, this is bad for them that I have to leave them. It wasn't about like we need to have seven subs every game. It was to expand the bench so the players who, you know, aren't there in that. What have we got? Seven, nine subs? Nine. Nine in the Premier League. You can have 12, you know, in the Champions League, I think. Is it? It is 12. Yeah, it is nine. It is nine. It is nine. you know the issue I think for Arsenal has been that with injuries it hasn't been a real issue for Arteta you know to have to leave big players out of the squad it has happened it did happen a couple of times last season but but not really but I think you're right I mean the Rodgers one I think is is interesting as well because Villa all the reporting around Villa is like they want to fee commensurate with some of the other transfers that have been done and that might include Bruno Gimaraes as a benchmark, but it certainly includes Elliot Anderson as a benchmark where they're saying, well, you know, same age, more or less long contract.

27:53Kaya Kaynak: Why should we accept anything less for that? Does, does the fee around Morgan Rogers add to whatever little bit of disquiet you have about where exactly he might fit? Or are you able to sort of park that to one side and think, well, look, that's what it is these days in the Premier League if you're buying a really good player from a Premier League club you're going to have to pay 100 million plus personally I'm able to park it because you look across the league and transfer fees are going up and up and up and up and I think that's kind of the way it's going I think the days where we judge a player by his price tag are kind of disappearing I remember when Nicola Pepe signed all the talk was what 70 million for this guy I don't remember having a similar conversation about any Arsenal player for a long time and Arsenal signed a lot of expensive players recently.

28:41I don't remember anyone last summer when Eberetti Eriza came in. I think it was close to the£70 million mark. I don't think anyone was saying, you know, in periods last season when he wasn't at his best and most impressive for Arsenal, no one was saying, what,£70 million for that guy? I just think the era, particularly at big clubs like Arsenal, of those kind of conversations are kind of going out the window. and I think we're all confident now that the club are financially healthy and in a position where they don't need to sell and I think the conversations we had over fees were kind of a legacy of moving to the Emirates where everything had to be done on a budget and everyone was watching the finances and everyone was managing the purse strings and players had to be sold for big money and bought for small money.

29:24We're not in that era anymore, thank God, because you can go out and sign the best players from the best teams in the league and it's not as big a deal. imagine in that sort of early Emirates era if Arsenal had gone in to sign the best player from another Champions League club it wouldn't have happened so I think that's a really exciting time the fee doesn't bother me as much it's more just I get nervous about where he fits how it will work the chemistry with other players on the pitch that kind of stuff that that interests me more

29:52Kaya Kaynak: than I think transfer fees these days I mean listen we all love it when a club goes out and spends big money on a on a player transfers excite people in a in a big way you do have to balance the books though so you know when discussions around someone like ethan when airy take place is that just something we're going to have to learn to live with where the club you know regardless of what we think and i will say my preference would be to keep ethan when airy um and get him a good loan deal next summer and see where he is because I don't want to say he hasn't had a fair shot but I think we all saw in that first season when he came into the team and scored nearly double figures in goals which for a 17 18 year old is kind of an outlier right we all saw that there was something there with this player and I don't want to say he hasn't had a fair shake or anything like that I recognize that the people inside the club Mikel Arteta the coaching staff the people who make those decisions.

30:52Kaya Kaynak: I've got far more information about Ethan Wenary as a player, a character, what his personality is like, how he trains, all that kind of stuff, right? We can all accept that. But maybe if you are going to go out and spend 70, 80 million on Bruno Gimaraes and 110, 105, whatever it might be for Morgan Rogers, that even if your inclination is to keep someone like Ethan Warneri, there is a pressure, financial pressure, to make a decision or that, let's say the sporting considerations, if they were on their own, are then very heavily informed by the financial decisions that you've made by spending on those players.

31:41Kaya Kaynak: So even if you wanted to keep Ethan Warneri, you're sort of in a position where you're going, well, we've made a decision to bring in this guy and that guy. we don't really want to do this, but we kind of have to because the books have to be balanced in some way. Yeah, it makes me really sad because I've, I mean, we've all followed Ethan Maneri for a long time, but my old job at Football London, I was at his first game for the under-21s when he was 15. And I saw this player and I thought, wow, this guy is the real deal. And I've been following him closely ever since. And he's always excited me.

32:14And he's someone who, when I saw him and Myles to get that goal and assist combination in Eindhoven. And I could see the future and it was really exciting. And I thought back to when Bakayosaka was breaking through into the first team and I thought, wow, this is amazing. I can see the future of Arsenal and it's turned out to be, this homegrown kid has turned out to be the most important player for Arsenal and arguably one of the best players in the world. I'd love that to happen for Ethan Winery. But Bakayosaka kind of got lucky in a way that when he broke in, Arsenal were a bit on their knees and there was no way they could go out and sign a right winger who could fill his position.

32:49Nicola Pepe wasn't filling the role. Rhys Nelson wasn't good enough competition for him. And he got that run in the team that Ethan Wineri has broken in at a time when Arsenal were really good and have lots of money. And that's just not going to happen. And even when it did happen for him, and he played quite well, as you spoke about in that 24-25 season, it wasn't enough to sustain the level. And I think the way Mikel Arteta looks at is he doesn't think, well, if at the end of next season I don't win anything, but I developed Ethan Wineri and Miles Lewis-Geli, I don't think he looks at that as a success.

33:23I'm not saying that I'd be upset if Ethan Wineri and Miles Lewis-Geli got a big run in the team next season, but I think Aston Wenger spoke about when you play young players, you kind of have to accept the cost of points because they're going to make mistakes. And I think he was talking about centre-backs particularly, but I think it's kind of relevant across the whole team. and I just look at those players and I don't see where their future run of minutes that all young players need is coming from and because I'm really cool in my personal time write down Arsenal squads that I'd like to see on pieces of paper and I've done it so often with this group and I've tried to find a slot for Ethan Winery to get some regular minutes and I really struggle.

34:05I'd love, like you say, for him to go out on loan and let's say, I think there was talk of Bournemouth being interested before he ended up going to Marseille. If that move had happened, I think particularly you see Iriola as the manager, it probably would have been better for him. And there are questions about his move to Marseille where he went from an Arsenal squad filled with attacking talent in his position to a Marseille squad filled with attacking talent in his position. And then obviously all the stuff that happened with Deserve leaving and the club kind of being as chaotic as it always is.

34:35there's lots of questions around the decision to allow him to go on that loan and I think I hope that Arsenal will take lots of learnings from it because let's say I don't know in the future Max Dalman needs to go out on loan I hope Arsenal will make a better decision than they did with Ethan Winery because I think there are some serious mistakes that have been made there that are kind of unacceptable but I don't I don't see how Ethan gets a Premier League loan move next season when I'm sure there are teams who want to come in and buy him permanently and buy him permanently for a decent amount of money as well.

35:04He's a young, homegrown English talent who is training still with the England first team despite everything he's been through at Marseille. Thomas Tuchel still called him up to train in the first team. I think he scored in the behind-closed-doors friendly. So he's very highly rated within the game, plays a lot for the under-21s, and people have known about him. And Mikel Arteta has known about him since he was 13. So people around football have known about him for a long time. If money comes in for him, let's say, I don't know, the team puts in a£30 million to£40 million bid this summer and it counts as pure profit.

35:32I think in the days of 10, 15 years ago, or even when Mikai Osaka was breaking through, you would have been able to rebuff that and say, no, we'll hold on to him. He's our player. But now with the pure profit stuff, it's very difficult to look at that and turn it down because like you said, the books need to be balanced. And I think that's an unintended consequence of all these FFP and PSR and all the rules. It's going to be quite sad to see. I would love for Ethan to go on loan and come back I guess the ideal scenario is you sell him for a decent profit you put in a buyback clause and maybe a few years down the line he comes back like I think Real Madrid have done with loads of their young players maybe that could work but I think if you look at what City have done with a lot of their academy players they've sold them to Southampton in recent years I remember when Southampton went to Premier League they sold Romeo Lavo for like 20 million Zuno is 20 million James Trafford went to Burnley for 20-25 million and that's allowed City to kind of keep trundling along, I mean there's other stuff but that's allowed City to keep trundling along and spending the money they spend on players that has funded a massive rebuild that no one talked about with Pep Guardiola because money only counts when it's being spent on Arsenal I think

36:43Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, I mean didn't Manchester City do that with Morgan Rodgers where he was on loan to, like I think he went to Bournemouth on loan and then he went to Middlesbrough, he went permanently to Middlesbrough, from Middlesbrough to Aston Villa and now Aston Villa are going to make bank if he arrives at Arsenal. Yeah, I'm a bit like you in that when you, like I'm not that big of a nerd where I'm writing them down, but when I think about the kind of teams that Arsenal might put out next season, it is difficult to see exactly where Ethan Wynary fits unless there are other departures in the midfield area, which I'm not necessarily expecting.

37:24Kaya Kaynak: Let's talk William Saliba, who's away with France. And there's a report. L 'Equipe were doing some reporting from the French World Cup squad. And the report says about Saliba and his back problem, he's constantly resting. He's only training on match days with his teammates. I'm guessing that means he's only really playing on match days rather than training on match days. he's requesting as little as possible uh of his back he has back pain for the moment it's holding up um we'll have to see what happens next but there's no absolute certainty Saliba will hold out until the end of the competition there is talk of back surgery he might need a procedure which might then play into that report about him not being available until after the first international break.

38:16Kaya Kaynak: Wear and tear is normal. I think we've known Saliba's had some back problems for a little while, and he obviously got through to the end of last season. He's now away with the World Cup. I think, you know, in an ideal world, with no World Cup this summer, Bakayo Saka, William Saliba, Declan Rice, they all just go off and lie in a kind of cryo chamber somewhere and come back for preseason training. Unfortunately, that's not what we've got. But it does look as if this is going to be an issue for Arsenal to contend with. So above and beyond what Saliba might have to experience, how does that then inform what Arsenal need to do in the market defensively?

38:56Kaya Kaynak: Because we don't know yet, and we haven't had an update and probably won't get an update for a little while. So we're in the dark about Juri and Timber. We're in the dark a little bit about Ben White. Arsenal are going to go away to Marbella next week. There's a sort of warm weather training camp. Mikel Arteta and some of the players will be away in Marbella. So we'll see who's there, whether Timber is there, whether Ben White is there. I find it hard to believe Ben White wouldn't find some time to top up the town in Marbella as well as work his way back from the injury. But there is a sort of big question mark, isn't there?

39:30Kaya Kaynak: Because I think on the left-hand side, if we look at Gabriel now being out of the World Cup, he should be back and ready. You've got Ricardo Calafuri. Incapié's out of the World Cup as well. Calafuri didn't go to the World Cup. So that left-hand side, there's some certainty there, right? The right-hand side, that's a different question. Christian Mosquera is there, obviously, but we don't know what role he might have to fill. So reports, let's say, linking Arsenal with Esri Kansa, not an exciting signing by any means, but you could see how that might make sense for a club, for a team that might have to do without William Saliba, that might have to ease Ben White and Jurian Timber back into action.

40:14Kaya Kaynak: A guy who can play centre half, a guy who can play right back, feels like a sensible signing, whether it's him or somebody else, we don't quite know at this moment in time. But that is a big sort of red question mark over the start of the season. Definitely. It's a real concern. And I guess in the short term, you think Christian Mosquera really impressed last season and was really good. Even though that Champions League final mistake happened, I still think he had a terrific debut season at Arsenal. And you forget he's 21 and was signed, I think, for£13 million. A great piece of business from Arsenal.

40:51And I think I wouldn't have any issues with him starting the season. And let's say there's reports that William Saliba is out until the first international break. I think that's only five or six games. I would have no problem whatsoever with Christian Mosquera playing those games. If the issue starts to become a bit more long-term than that, like you say, back surgery is a complicated one. It's a big injury. And Saliba, I mean, the fact that he's been able to put in the level of performance he has, despite managing these injuries, is unbelievable. I think there's a shout that he was Arsenal's best player last season.

41:22And the fact he was able to do that while managing a serious, serious injury. And there were training sessions he missed. There were a lot of open training sessions for Arsenal before Champions League games where he just wasn't there. and he was still able to come in and put in these elite level performances. So hats off to him for sustaining that level. But like we've seen with Saka and so many other Arsenal players, it does catch up with you eventually. And I agree with you. I think I was looking at... So right back, I think, is a position where Arsenal may have needed a refresh anyway this summer.

41:51I love Ben White, but I think the drop-off between Urien Timber and him last season, I felt it in a way that I haven't felt it in the past. and I thought, listen, if someone comes in for him and there's an offer on the table, I'd entertain it. And then I was thinking, well, maybe you look for a different kind of right back to Uri and Timber who is brilliant defensively but doesn't maybe offer as much in the final third. And as I think you and I have discussed in the past, you don't want Uri and Timber running through on goal as we saw far too many times last season. Maybe you get yourself a right back who can offer a bit more going forward and you kind of got a bit of best of both worlds in that position in the way that Califuria is fantastic in the opposition.

42:31Third, Hincapier is a bit better defensively. That kind of yin and yang in the two positions.

42:36Kaya Kaynak: Cheeky Trent Alexander-Arnold bit, is that what you're saying? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying. That's exactly what I'm saying. Famously cheap wages. Now, though, I think it's kind of switched up a bit where, like you say, the centre-back right-back signing makes a lot of sense. Esri Konza, I actually really like as a player. I think he's been good for England. You know, that crazy tackle against Garner that wasn't looked at by VAR for some reason aside. I think he's been good for England in the World Cup. I think if there's an opportunity to sign England's starting centre-back to bolster your squad, to not even start, then yeah, I think that's a decent deal.

43:13I see how he fits in a way that I don't necessarily see how a lot of the attacking sign as we spoke about fit. So yeah, I'd be open to that.

43:20Kaya Kaynak: Is it realistic though? If you're going to Villa and you're looking to get Morgan Rodgers, is it realistic to do another deal with the same club it doesn't really tend to happen that much does it it has happened with Arsenal the Zinchenko and Jesus summer true I guess there was a weird sort of paternalistic pep kind of thing there and that's before City looked at us as rivals I agree with you I don't see that happening um in the same way that he does throw in that that weird caveat but there are other sense about right backs out there Esri Kanz is kind of one that we've seen and know. But I'd be interested in maybe a bit more youth in that position.

43:59You know, Ben White's 28, Urienton is 25 still. I think amazingly only 25 because he's raised with the maturity of a 35-year-old. But someone a bit younger in that position might be exciting. I do think Arsenal could maybe get by with what they've got right now, but I don't want to see us get by if it can be avoided, especially given the struggles they had at the back last season. I think I'd love to see, yeah, a bit of reinforcement in that area.

44:22Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, Mikel Arteta does love a defensive of signing as we know um so it would be a surprise to me if we didn't go through the rest of this window without signing uh without signing a defender let's maybe shift the focus a little bit to the world cup and the players that are still involved um i'll thank the people at arsenal.com or whoever's in charge of the content there that they had this um really interesting documentary with Mikel Marino on the app. It was only available on the app, and now you can get it on the Arsenal YouTube channel. I really do recommend it. It's well worth a watch. Obviously, the story of his injury and the recovery and how it went in tandem with the rest of our season and what he missed out on.

45:06Kaya Kaynak: Some very interesting stuff from Marino in there, like talking about how it gave him a chance to work on some of the weaknesses in his game. And, you know, that rehab and the hard work that goes into it is, yeah, it's not easy for players. You know, I think we see an injury and we go, right, as soon as his foot is better, he's ready to play. But because he spends so much time in a boot, you lose all the muscle in your leg. You've got to build that back up and make sure you don't get any sort of other injury. So I do recommend if you're looking for something to watch that particular documentary with Mikel Moreno, who just comes across as such a smart, switched-on guy as well, who's absolutely connected to the club since he arrived.

45:48Kaya Kaynak: But what a moment for him the other night to send Spain through and at the same time send Cristiano Ronaldo and Bruno Fernandes and Bernardo Silva. I love the fact that Bernardo Silva, the first thing he did when Marino came on the pitch was sort of jump into him and then look aghast when the referee had the temerity to give him a yellow card that he never gets those in the Premier League. And then he made the foul on Marino, which ended up with Marino scoring the goal against Portugal. So I like a little bit of that kind of karma. But, you know, he's a very reliable guy in front of goal. You know, whoever it was that said, you know what, we've got a crisis at Arsenal, we need a striker.

46:29Kaya Kaynak: Who's the guy who can do the job? Whether it was Mikel Arteta, one of the coaching staff, you know, who said, I see something in this guy in front of goal. they were absolutely bang on the money. Yeah, yeah. Just another thing on Bernardo Silva, I love the fact that him and Rodri were going at each other instantly. It was so good. It's like they're no longer teammates for, I think, literally a week, and so they're already fighting with each other. I love that. Rodri apologized as well. I thought that was like, it was like, come on, listen, it's just on-pitch stuff, you know? You can shake hands off the pitch, and he was like afterwards going, I shouldn't have celebrated when, you know, Bernardo Silva headed over.

47:05Kaya Kaynak: Of course you should have fucking celebrated. he headed over from like six yards and it's your fault that he got that header like little six five foot six guy and you're rodri of course you should celebrate it's not personal you know it's not uh sort of yeah yeah i just don't really understand that i think you can just shake hands going off the pitch and go yeah sorry sorry about that but you know you don't have to apologize publicly grow up i mean rodri famously good at just letting things go and move on his whole vibe but yeah I mean, I'm loving watching their relationship implode. It's fantastic in real time.

47:40I'm also loving watching Mikel Moreno be back. And let me tell you, so the whole fitness thing, I can tell you from personal experience, you know, in case you weren't sure, I play five-a-side every week, and I missed one week because I had a really bad sunburn that I picked up in Spain. And it was so bad, mate. Let me tell you, it was awful. I've been there. the colour of a Palermo kit it was awful and I came back after one week and I was cooked I was struggling I could barely get around the pitch I could barely go into tackles you know it was really really hard and that was after one week and I'm not even an elite athlete No I hide it well I hide it very well I'm a dual monster myself but I'm now Mikel Marino

48:33Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, your 6 '7 goal hanger. Just stick the ball in the mixer and Kaio will get the head on it. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's hard to do that when your face is entirely pink. But I found a way. You know, God sends his biggest challenges to his bravest soldiers. And I got through it. That's it. Well done, you. Thank you, mate. Thank you. And he also sent a big challenge to Mikel Moreno, who I think the injury, no one still seems to know exactly what it was. I think he almost seems kind of unsure. I mean, the way Arsenal talk about it is like this sort of freak injury that no one had ever heard of before.

49:05It's a really strange thing.

49:08Kaya Kaynak: It felt like metatarsally kind of, didn't it? Yeah, but metatarsals are normally six weeks, aren't they? I mean, I remember in my childhood sort of various Wayne Rooney and David Beckham metatarsals, did they get fit for the World Cup? It was all about race against time, not four or five-monthers. And to miss that level of football is big. And to come back in a World Cup, and as much as we enjoy Portugal's demise, they do have a lot of very good players and you know they didn't play like it this summer but they have a lot of good players and to come back in a game of that magnitude and be that decisive i really love it i love how he's got kind of the same role in the spain squad as he does at arsenal where he scores important goals like in the the last competition uh in the quarterfinal against germany he he scored i think was 118th minute winner yeah the header yeah just before he signed for arsenal and there was lots of excitement around him then i remember thinking yeah this guy this guy pops up when you need him and he's done that so many times for us and it's funny that in his first few months we were all thinking when he got that shoulder injury um after one training session i think we're all thinking like oh god is this is this the real deal of what we signed here and it took him a few games after coming back at a really high level almost straight away from that to show us what he offers and like you say he's such a threat in front of goal and i do think whoever the academy manager was that decided to put him in central midfield and not up front owes everyone an apology because we talk about the lack of world-class strikers in football right now Mikel Moreno could have been that guy I really think so but this is another reason why with Declan Rice's whole impending seeming absence I'm not as concerned as I would be if Mikel Moreno also wasn't available because I think he's such an intelligent smart good player that he can fit in and cover a lot of those things he's not as mobile as Rice and will lose that kind of cover on transitions and all that kind of stuff.

50:59But when it comes to on-the-ball stuff, when it comes to final third threat, when it comes to defensive capabilities as well, he can seamlessly slot in and fill in that role. And he's such a good signing. He's such a great squad player who, if I see him coming off the bench, I know we're going to get something. That's not the case with lots of players. His consistency is remarkable. I struggle to think of too many bad games I've seen him play. So yeah, I'm really delighted to see him back in the Spain squad and scoring important goals. And yeah, I think it's really happy for him.

51:29Kaya Kaynak: Yeah. Just before we move on to, I want to talk about Norway and England, obviously, because that's coming up and there's a lot of Arsenal interest in that. Just going back to Bruno Gimaraes, if Rice is rested at the start of the season or needs a rest or there is no choice, where exactly do you see him in the team? Is he like, do you see him maybe as a six and then you play Odegaard and a left eight, which is typically Rice's role? So he's not necessarily a like for like swap with Declan Rice, but he does allow you then to play Marino or Miles or Ebreche-Eze in that role because of the way he could slot in at the base of the midfield.

52:16I think I see him so he did that six role for Newcastle after they signed Tonali and then Tonali got suspended because of all the betting stuff and then when Tonali came back initially it was Tonali playing as the eight further forward and Bruno playing as a six and Newcastle's midfield really struggled for a while and then it kind of Eddie Howe decided to flip them and use Tonali as a six and Bruno further forward and that's when we started seeing the best out of both players so for me I don't see Bruno as that deep lying in the way we saw Zubmendi do it at times like season dropping into the back line picking the ball up off the center backs and progressing the ball out of pitch i don't think that's his game really um i don't think he's maybe technically secure enough as well to play the ball in those really high risk areas i i don't feel confident with him spraying passes out of the back line maybe i need to watch him more but i just don't i don't he doesn't feel with confidence in that way i think i view him as if arsenal play that kind of double pivot again i view him as the the more advanced of the two kind of the role that that Myles Lewis-Skelly played when him and Declan Rice were in a two towards the end of last season and slightly further forward and bouncing into tackles and winning the ball off people high up and playing balls into the final third and getting on the end of three balls and crosses and sort of popping up with goals.

53:29I see him there. I don't see him, yeah, deeper. I think he's further forward. So I think if he does play, it's sort of Bruno and Zubamendi as a two for me in my head. Bruno and Rice can work together as a two. I think that can work really nicely. I think they complement each other really well. I don't see him playing as much with Mourinho, who I think is at his best slightly further up the pitch, although he can do that sixth position well. And then, yeah, what it means for Myles, I kind of dread to think because I want Myles to play a lot of football next season because I think he deserved it.

53:58But, yeah, the Bruno deal kind of puts paid to that a little bit.

54:01Kaya Kaynak: It's sort of weird, isn't it? Because he emerged as a left back and then we signed in Capia and he's emerged as a central midfield player. And it looks like we're signing a player who could, you know, be a real impediment to his minutes. So, yeah, there's another one maybe to keep an eye on. You know, I wouldn't want to lose Miles either, but it might be one just to keep an eye on this summer. Back to the World Cup then and the big game. I think it's Saturday night, Saturday evening, is it? It's England against Norway and, you know, Arsenal involvement. Rice, Saka, Maduweke, Eze could all play.

54:36Kaya Kaynak: Martin Odegaard, who I think is having a good tournament for Norway, likely to be involved there. This is a very tantalizing game. Me as a neutral in this, I have no skin in the game. So I kind of always want the Arsenal players to do well when they play for their country. But at the same time, this part of me is going like, go on holidays now, lads. I want you to kind of get knocked out. So there's no winner in that sense. Maybe the winner is, if England go out, more Arsenal players go home and get their rest and get ready for the new season. But I think this is going to be a really, really interesting game because England have been good.

55:15Kaya Kaynak: I think Norway and what Haaland has done in particular, being up there with France, Argentina, who are sort of World Cup powerhouses, right? So when Messi scores a load of goals and Mbappe scores a load of goals, nobody's really surprised by that. I think for Haaland to be in the ballpark of those guys while playing for a country that hasn't been at the World Cup since 98 is amazing, really. But it really does set us up for a very, very interesting game on Saturday evening. Yeah, I'm really looking, well, if you can say looking forward to it, because the emotional stress that the Mexico-England game put me through, I don't know if I can put myself through that again.

55:57But I think from a footballing perspective, I think it should be a really exciting game because neither team's strength is in their back lines. If you look at the Norwegian defence, they're not particularly great. I know the goalkeeper had a superb game against Brazil, but if it wasn't for him, they probably would have gone out and all their brilliant midfield and attacking play would have been for nothing because their back line gives up a lot of chances and the England back line gives up a lot of chances and England could easily have gone out against Mexico if Raul Jimenez had been a bit more clinical.

56:26I think he could have been in real trouble. So from that perspective, it's going to be really fun. It's also, you know, I hate to talk well of Harry Kane and Erling Haaland on an Arsenal podcast, but it's two hot, top-tier strikers going up against each other. And it's always fun to see elite players matching up against each other like that. The midfield battle will be fascinating because Norway is a bit more about control with Sanderberg and Martin Erdegaard and Berg as well in there from Bodo Glimt. Whereas the England midfield is a bit more about dynamism and crunching into tackles and being everywhere at Anderson and Rice and Bellingham.

56:57So I think it's a really fascinating mix-up of styles, of quality, of stakes as well, given that for Norway, I think I spoke to a Norwegian friend and he was kind of happy with getting out of the group. So for them to get to a semi-final would be huge. And I actually think Norway against Argentina, I'd favour Norway a little bit in that match-up, even though Messi is ridiculous and has proved that yet again in this tournament. But if England can get through this one, then I think it opens up a really interesting semi-final for them as well. I think they'd have a good chance against Argentina, presuming they get through.

57:33But yeah, a really, really exciting game. I'm really looking forward to it.

57:38Kaya Kaynak: The other involvement, obviously, is Spain. The Arsenal players involved for Spain. No minutes at all for David Raya or Martin Zubemendi. Mikel Moreno, we've already talked about. And they face Belgium where Leandro Trossard, who for the time being remains an Arsenal player and is having a really, really good tournament. Yeah, I loved how much Trossard seemed pumped up to beat the Americans, I have to say. I think, you know, for our American audience, apologies, but we've seen Leo when he gets the bit between his teeth at Arsenal. When someone pisses him off, he responds on the pitch really, really strongly and he looked pumped up.

58:17And I think if you look at that Belgian team, they're not the golden generation of a few years ago who were filled with Premier League quality. They're kind of a mishmash of semi-decent European players, a few old Premier League players. And one of the few players who's kind of in their peak age coming off a fantastic season of four is Leandro Trossard. I know he had a bit of a dry patch in the middle for Arsenal, but he finished the season really strongly. And he's kind of put that team on his back quietly in the way that Leo does for Arsenal, where he shows up in big moments, delivers. The cross he put in for De Quetelara's second goal was unbelievable.

58:52Wing player at his finest and on his weak foot as well. I know we know that Leandro Trosso is ridiculously two-footed, but that cross is top, top level. And yeah, I think he, if Argentina, if Belgium are to beat Argentina, him having a good game is crucial. And the Argentinian fullbacks aren't particularly impressive, I'll say that, from what I've seen in this tournament. I wouldn't be surprised if he pops up with another important goal and a contradiction in this game. And I think that's going to be really, really exciting.

59:20Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, so some good quarterfinals. And obviously the big news around the World Cup is that Justin Bieber is going to be playing at the halftime show. So that's something we've all been really keen on and looking forward to. What can we say about that? You know, halftime show, it works for the NFL. It works for the Super Bowl. What are we doing here? What are we doing with this? And this is like entirely, I think, a FIFA, Jenny Infantino thing, right? This is him, for want of a better word, Americanizing football. And I don't mean that in a pejorative sense towards American football fans or that, you know, the people of America are the people who have demanded this.

59:58Kaya Kaynak: But because it's there, he's looked at this as a way of sort of imprinting his own, like the salt baification of the World Cup, right? That Infantino, the sprinkly salt meat wanker, you know, it's all about the surface level bullshit that nobody really needs and nobody has asked for. Where do you stand on this? Like the ad breaks, the halftime show, does it make any difference if we talk about it and push back? Or is it incumbent on us as fans of the game who want what is special about the game to remain special? Like I think, you know, 45 minutes of football is not too much to ask, you know, without an interruption.

1:00:38Kaya Kaynak: And fans who go to a game are there to be entertained by a game of football, not a halftime show. Yeah. On the drinks break, drinks break, sorry. I think it is important to keep talking about them and pushing back against them because as much as it feels like we as fans and observers and media are powerless to change Gianni and Fantino's unilateral whims, the only way you can even start to build momentum to push back against that is by fan discontent. and I think if people continue to boo them, I think if people continue to voice their discontent in very public ways, that's the only way you bring around change because I think if authorities see people just accepting those changes, they think, well, no one really cares.

1:01:36We'll just do that and we'll see how far we can push the boat until they eventually do snap back. And I think, to be honest, in the Premier League, we saw this with the Super League. is kind of like if you give a bit of an inch, the mile will be taken as much as it can be.

1:01:50Kaya Kaynak: And then when there's sort of collective, like for one of the only times that I can remember in my entire life, there is a collective pushback where partisanship and whoever you support was put to one side and the clubs and the fans of the clubs involved went no. And that made a difference. Yeah, it does make a difference. And the thing that people pay attention to is always their wallets and how it looks on the screen, right? How it looks on TV. So if people stop turning up to games and, you know, if, God forbid, the hydration breaks were brought into club football in the regular season and there were booze and there were constant conversations and all that kind of stuff, I do think it would make a difference.

1:02:28And maybe that's naive and idealistic of me, but I do think it would certainly put doubt into people's minds. And then you start to have conversations and then those conversations lead to places. Doing nothing does nothing. So you have to try and create some sort of motivation and atmosphere towards that. On the halftime show, yeah, I don't like it. I actually don't dislike it from an insane perspective. I think that stuff's fine. It doesn't bother me too much. The thing that bothers me most is the fact that it's going to elongate a 15-minute halftime break.

1:02:56Kaya Kaynak: Yeah, that's the issue. That really, really annoys me because there's a material impact on footballers who, if they stop for, let's say, I don't know, because it takes a lot of time to set these things up to bring them down, it will probably affect the pitch as well. there's a real risk of like football is getting injured off the back of one man's vanity project to um to impress an audience for um football that will kind of probably not be there beyond this world cup i don't think in the the next world cup we'll have these hydration breaks or halftime shows or anything like that i hope that we won't i think we will you know maybe i'm naive but i i think those kind of things they they work in sports like American football because they're naturally stop-start.

1:03:40They have breaks kind of written into the laws of the game. They would work in cricket even, you know, as funny as it is to imagine a halftime show.

1:03:47Kaya Kaynak: They go for lunch, you know, it's very civilised. Just take a break for lunch and, you know, you could get the string quartet out or whatever. Exactly. A Justin Bieber concert in the middle of an England Test match would be very funny to watch. But football is one of the few sports where it's continuous. It never really stops and the second the ball goes into play there's an infinite number of possibilities about what could happen. I think people misunderstand that, particularly when they're not used to watching football and they're coming at it from an outside lens. And they look at sports like basketball and baseball and NFL where it's all about how do we keep people entertained during the breaks, which are a necessity and part of the game.

1:04:21Time out's a part of the game in all those sports. Whereas football doesn't have that. And that's kind of why we love it so much is that anything can happen at any moment. And look at the Argentina-Cate Red game. like that the the goal that Cape Verde scored in extra time anything can happen at any moment in a football match and um when you try and pause it as much as possible when you get rid of momentum when you get rid of flow it impacts it more than any other sport and there's a reason that football is the most popular sport in the world in my opinion it's because it's the most compelling because it's got something going on at all times for you to watch and it never stops I love that and I do think as much as Arsenal benefited from it last season the stop-start nature of the Premier League with ages being taken over throwing to corners.

1:05:03I think that was a bad thing for football. I think they should push back against that as much as possible. So yeah, I think if the halftime show, I mean, it is going ahead. I really hate, I really fear for the idea that a player tenters up at William Saliba's back goes at halftime because he's been sat, you know, still for half an hour waiting for this concert from Justin Bieber. You know, nothing against Justin Bieber. I like quite a lot of his songs, but But I think it's a bad thing for football. I think it doesn't take player welfare into account. I don't really think any fans are asking for it.

1:05:36I think it's just a commercialisation way to make a bit more money from sponsors. And I don't like it at all.

1:05:43Kaya Kaynak: Well, I'll go off and make a very big sandwich during the halftime break. I certainly won't be watching any of that. Anyway, we will see what happens. Better leave it there for today. Thank you so much as always, Kai. Pleasure to talk to you and we'll catch up again soon. My pleasure. Thank you, Andrew.

1:06:06Kaya Kaynak: Milo's Money Days are here and we're making it rain for rewards members. For the first time ever, when you make a purchase of$200 or more through July 12th, you'll get up to$30 back in extra Milo's Money. Not a member yet? Join for free today because members get more at Lowe's. My Lowe's Money Award varies based on status Members in gold get 30, silver get 20, and bronze get 10 My Lowe's Money valid for 30 days Restrictions and more terms at Lowe's.com slash My Lowe's Money Days

1:06:37Kaya Kaynak: Thank you very much indeed to Kaya Always good to chat And you can get more from him over on the TIFO podcast Which is over on The Athletic and in loads of other places as well The usual podcast places, I think they say So there you go, good chats and bits and pieces beginning to happen, of course. We didn't even get around to the exciting news that we're signing an out-of-contract goalkeeper from, well, we're not signing him from Leeds United because his contract expired. So he's a free agent, free agent goalkeeper, Eli Melier, Melier, Meslier. That guy, you know the guy I'm talking about, I believe he's coming in to be the number three goalkeeper.

1:07:12Kaya Kaynak: That exciting conversation. Maybe we can keep it for another day when the deal is actually announced, which I heard could be today, but let's see. Anyway, I'm going to leave it there for today. I hope you enjoyed the show. Thank you so much as always for being here, for listening, for downloading, for subscribing, wherever you are in the world. I hope you and yours are doing okay. You can join myself and James on Monday as always for an Arsecast Extra. For now though, have a great weekend and we will catch you on the next one. Until then, cheers. Bye-bye.

1:08:16I'm out. Thank you.

1:08:50Kaya Kaynak: called Just Fontaine, named after the footballer Just Fontaine, and definitely not any other Irish band. We're here to audition for the FIFA World Cup halftime show. This is our track. It's named after the great man himself, Jenny Infantino. Take it away, boys.

1:09:21So, did we get the gig?

1:09:50Kaya Kaynak: gold get 30 silver get 20 and bronze get 10 milo's money valid for 30 days restrictions and more terms at lowes.com slash milo's money days