Episode 890 - The last few days of the window

0:00Hi, I'm Max Rushton, the host of The Guardian Football Weekly, alongside me, Barry Glendening, my co-host. Hey, Barry. Hello. Now, although every American found us during the World Cup, for the two that didn't, what can they expect? Found us and fell in love with us, Max. They can expect three episodes each week of occasionally insightful analysis covering the Premier League, Champions League and beyond. Football Weekly is back. Watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

0:50Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. We're heading into the second weekend of the new Premier League season. But for Arsenal, we obviously have to wait until Monday night. That's when our next game takes place against Aston Villa. So at the moment, there's a little less focus on that than there is on any potential transfer deals we might do before the window closes. there's a lot of talk obviously about gabriel martinelli's future and will he go to saudi arabia al hilal are the team that are interested apparently in signing him but as yet nothing has really happened there does his departure demand a replacement from arsenal can they let martinelli go and not sign anybody maybe we'll see the player we appear to be most interested in julian alvarez Well, that is a particularly complicated and complex situation for all kinds of reasons, which we will get into today on the show.

2:00And given the lack of anything else that appears to be really happening, we might as well just crack on. And with me today to shoot the Arsenal breeze, to talk about the transfer stuff and to talk about our start to the season from the Chronicles of Aguinar podcast. It is Harry Simiou. Harry, happy new season to you. Thank you very much. How are you doing? I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. I mean, I guess it feels like ages ago now, but we've got ourselves off to a decent start. We have to wait until Monday night to play again. So it's a bit of an odd week, isn't it, with everything that's going on, the close of the transfer window, and then we have to wait till Monday night.

2:35The transfer deadline is Tuesday, but it's been an encouraging start if you want to take into account, let's say, the Community Shield as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think the thing I was probably most impressed with was the way that from sort of the preseason friendlies prior to the Community Shield to that game against Coventry, we seem to have kind of just gone up two or three gears, which I thought was really, really impressive. Because I'll be honest, I watched the Dortmund game, I was at the Como game, and I sort of come away from those two fixtures thinking, look, I know not everybody's back yet, and I know not everybody's ready to play, but we don't look anywhere near ready.

3:09So then to turn up in the Community Shield final and produce the level of performance that we did on top of the result, and then to start the game so brilliantly against Coventry City and essentially kill the game pretty much by half time, I thought, you know, it was a real sort of testament to the preparation and the commitment of a lot of those players that have had very short holidays, but have come back and are sort of ready to go again. It's great to see. Yeah, I mean, the likes of Declan Rice and Bakayo Saka starting this game when everybody was saying, you know, they're not going to be back until after the first international break.

3:43And, you know, while it made some vague sense, it also, you had to have the assumption that nobody had ever watched Mikel Arteta before in his life. You know, the idea that he might resist the temptation of using Declan Rice and Bikai Osaka, I think we all knew there was a strong possibility that that would happen. But, you know, when you look at this season, when you compare it to last season and what we, I think endured is the wrong word because ultimately it ended with such triumph and celebration. But, you know, I've said this before, it felt like we were going through something at the time where, you know, every game was a sort of a trial in many ways.

4:28But the Coventry game hopefully has set some kind of a template for what's to come in the sense that when you're 2-0 up at halftime and when you're 3-0 up a couple of minutes into the second half, you have this strange, weird sensation going on inside, which is, some people might call it relaxation. Other people might call it not shitting yourself. You know, I think it's two sides of the same coin, to be honest. But yeah, is that kind of your hope for this season? That having done it, having gone the distance, we take some of this pressure off in terms of how we play and how we manage games. And also, I guess, how it allows Mikel Arteta to manage games in terms of the personnel he uses or the personnel he's prepared to use from the bench because of the scorelines that we're operating under.

5:16Yeah, for sure. I mean, in terms of your two descriptions of that feeling, I'd certainly go with the latter one if it were me. But yeah, I think the hope this season is that we're going to play with a freedom and with a belief that maybe at times over the last few seasons hasn't been there. I know that Arsenal have improved, you know, over the last few years, generally speaking, and there's been lots of things to be positive and excited about. And as a group of players, they had every right to believe and feel that they could compete and achieve anything. But actually getting over the line, it does bring something different.

5:49And I think you've seen that in the performances against Manchester City and against Coventry. And I know it's early days and maybe you shouldn't get too carried away, but everybody just seems to be playing with this almost relaxation that sort of says to them, do you know what? we can go out and we can play our game because our game is good enough and we are good enough to beat anybody and we don't have to think so hard about the defensive side of the game to the point where we're almost completely um you know with our hands tied behind our back anytime that a risky situation comes up from fear of failure once you succeed and once you achieve something the fear of failure goes away and in a weird way like i'm not obviously i was gutted that we lost the Champions League final.

6:34But the fact that the club has never won that, the club has never gone back to back in terms of winning the Premier League. Obviously, you can go back to the 30s and find seasons where we did that, but it wasn't the Premier League. It wasn't the same back then. I feel like that means that there's just enough of an incentive still for you not to relax completely, but you can take the positives from having achieved and you can put that into practice in a way that gives you a greater freedom and a sense of, you know, belonging. Like you feel like you belong at the top table. You feel like you belong among...

7:08Just think that was the bit that was missing for Arsenal last season at times that made it all that little bit nervy and that little bit stressful at times. Sure. And my hope is that that's gone away now and the early signs are good. Yeah. I mean, I think we know again with regards to Mikel Arteta that he is a guy who is never going to let anybody rest on their laurels. right least of all himself in terms of how he's motivated how he motivates his team but also in terms of what he expects from his team at the same time though there's a human element isn't there where once you feel the story people talk uh talk about all the time is when arsenal won the league in 2004 and arsene wenger was like right you've won the league but you can do something else you can do something extraordinary you can go the whole season on beaten but the players were like well we've we've won the league why are we going to bust our arses for the next four games we've done what we set out to do and it's understandable that that is you know in the back of your mind at least and obviously we know they pushed themselves through and a couple of like hairy games in those last four games where we did go unbeaten and created that history but it is the human element of things that you've got to be mindful of and you've got to try and manage you know in terms of dressing room dynamics training rank uh training ground dynamics all all of those things um but i'm also curious as to like to what extent you feel michael arteta will be blocking out the external noise which i think he's been very good at as well like last season whenever anything went wrong he was he was positive right he sounded a positive note even in the press conferences after a game where we'd lost, even against Man City, that 2-1 defeat to Man City, he came in, I think he basically said, well, it's a new Premier League now.

9:01It's five games to go. It's not over, regardless of how we felt about it as fans or what we feared might happen as fans. I was sort of struck over the opening weekend of the season by just how many people were so strident in their belief belief that Arsenal were going to win the league again. Not favorites to win the league again, but going to win the league again. I'm not even talking about Arsenal fans. I'm talking about commentators and pundits and all of those things. And last season, Liverpool won their first five games and you couldn't move for people talking about how well Liverpool were going to do it again.

9:41They won the league the year before. They're the champions. They're going to do... Is that something he's got to be particularly mindful of this time? that whatever people are saying externally, the messaging that he has to get across to his players is, well, basically ignore that. It's too easy to say that after one weekend of the season, you've got to prove it over the coming 37. Yeah, I mean, look, football can humble you, right? We've all been in that place before where we were certain something was going to happen, a certain team was going to win, and the opposite occurred. So we've got to guard against that.

10:16I, like you, was surprised by how many people had sort of given us and crowned us champions already for the new season. But I do think that's twofold. I think it's number one, people think that this Arsenal team, having got over the line, are going to go to that next level. You look at some of the business that we've done in the summer, Bruno Gimaraes, Esri Konsa, wonderful additions. Christos Tzolis, I think, is a lot better than people thought he was going to be. Oh, I like that pronunciation, dude. I like that. If I can't get it right as a Greek, then what hope has anybody got? But yeah, I mean, I think the additions have helped.

10:48I think the bigger picture is really, really positive about Arsenal. But the other thing I think that plays into this is that, and again, I don't want to tempt fate, but you look around at the Premier League and there's so many of the teams that you would expect to be challenging and competing with us that are going through real transitional periods, whether that's a big kind of churn of players or new management. And I think all of that combined is why people feel quite strongly about Arsenal's chances of winning the league again. But in terms of protecting against that, everything I've seen, you know, in pre-season and in the build-up to this season, sort of covering the club for radio, but also for the club's TV channel as well over the last few weeks, points to the fact that Mikel Arteta is very much viewing this season as a clean slate.

11:39He's taken steps behind the scenes to try and make sure that that messaging is right for the players. There was a report the other day that he had taken some of the champions kind of branding away from the players' entrance at Emirates Stadium because he doesn't want the players to walk in ahead of every game going, we're the champions, we've done it now, it's all good, we can relax. And that might not even be something that has an impact, but that just shows you to what extent he will go to try and ensure that that messaging is the right messaging, It's consistent. And he gets what he wants out of those players.

12:14You've heard him say, we're not the Premier League reigning champions. We're going to attack the Premier League title. That's what we want. Defending champions. We're going to attack, not defend. Yeah. And do you know what as well, right? Sometimes you listen to that stuff. And I can say this as an Arsenal fan. Sometimes you hear Mikel Arteta come out with certain things and you think, this is a LinkedIn talk, right? You do feel that sometimes. There's no doubt about it. But I imagine that if that message is being drummed into you every single day of the week and in every training session, that there will come a point where it just becomes in your subconscious.

12:47And I think that is helpful. So it might feel a little bit over the top at times. It might feel a little bit cringe. You know, even as Arsenal fans or as onlookers, you might look at it and go, oh, this guy. You know, first it was the light bulbs. Now, then it was naming dogs. And now it's this sort of stuff. you know but ultimately at the end of the day what he's doing is working so i think we just need to let the guy get on with it i think i mean that was the point i was just going to make that like regardless of what you think you know some of the things obviously he tries don't come off or they do end up looking a little bit daft you know you think about playing the you never walk alone at the training ground over the speakers you know to get the players used to the atmosphere at anfield and then we go and lose at anfield or we drew two i can't remember what it was but it It was just like, okay.

13:31But, you know, the reality is that it is working because you can't be effective. You can't be as effective as he has been over the last six, seven years at Arsenal. You can't get the buy-in from the players. You can't get that level of commitment from the players, which I think we saw last season that the players were 100 % bought in. Not that they weren't before, but, like, the determination that they demonstrated to, you know, get themselves out in front, but then claw it back when, for a time, we were behind Manchester City towards the end of the season, that the absolute commitment you need from players, physically, mentally, all the rest of it is huge, you know?

14:13Can I ask you a question? Yeah, of course. It's a question that's just kind of popped into my head. Do you think that when he recruits players, he also thinks about the hunger levels that those players are going to be coming in with because he believes that that can have a positive impact on the players. For example, right, Bruno Gimaraes, Esri Consa, Christos Solis. If you look through their careers, okay, they've won things, but you're not talking about them having won the game's real elite prizes. So aside from him quite liking the player, the tactical fit, their various attributes, Do you think he almost deliberately targets players that are in that bracket of absolutely have the ability to go and win the game's biggest on us, but haven't done it yet?

14:55Yeah. In the belief that that hunger being added to your squad is going to kind of revitalize and give everybody else that extra kick? 100%. I mean, I think with Konza and Gimaraes, you've got two players who are 28 years of age who have done it in the Premier League for, you know, a good number of years now, but have never won the Premier League. And this is their only chance, really, to win it, isn't it? You know, to come into a club like Arsenal at 28 years of age, you've got maybe, you know, three, four seasons left at the very, very top level. And that's if, you know, you're lucky and your injury record holds up, you know, 32, not that old for a centre-half, but maybe for a central midfielder, you know, you're in the September of your career, shall we be generous and say that, right?

15:40So I think you do add that, you know. You add someone like Christos Solis, who I can't pronounce the same way as you do, but he's 24 years of age and he's coming in, having had a period in the Premier League with Norwich, which I think for reasons people understand didn't go particularly well for him. It was probably a bit too much too soon, which is absolutely fine. But he's coming in to sort of show people, right, I am ready now. I am here. I can do it at this level. having you know done it in Belgium and put up incredible numbers in there I think you really do need those dressing room dynamics and and you know you look at maybe some of the players that might be going out and we can talk about those in a while you know even somebody like Gabrielle Martinelli who you know regardless of whatever you think of him as a player or where he is as a player versus where you thought he might be as a player or anything like that this was a guy who every time he pulled on the Arsenal shirt, like symbolized or was the very essence of what Mikel Arteta wants from a player, right?

16:48That he'll work his fucking arse off for you. Like you can talk about quality as a separate thing, right? But we know that that is one of Mikel Arteta's non-negotiables. We don't talk about those non-negotiables anymore because, well, not that we take them for granted. It's just that they happen all the time. You know, there was a great clip during the rounds, wasn't there? The Coventry game where we had a corner and there was a sort of a half chance for commentary to break. And all of a sudden there's like eight, nine Arsenal players sprinting back, Captain Martin Odegaard, chief among them, you know, to recover the ball and to snuff out any danger.

17:21But even with that, with Martinelli, right? That's not enough. He needs a different dynamic. He's decided that Martinelli's work rate, which I think you could hold up as an example to any player, you know, and say, this is what we want from you. Look at what Gabriel Martinelli does in terms of how he works on the pitch. We need that from you as a bare minimum. That's no longer enough. I think he wants different dynamics, and maybe it is more focus on quality. But for sure, you know, those characters who are coming in, big, strong, experienced players and saying, I want to win the Premier League, that if there's any subconscious, what would you say, not downing of tools, but if you feel subconsciously satisfied that you won the league last year, you've got Gimaraish and Konza in your ear going, I haven't won it.

18:08I want my medal. Fucking buck it up, man. Get your shit together, right? That's it. Absolutely. That's so key, I think. And you look at the players that we're bringing in and you obviously look at the quality first. You look at the fit first. You think about the needs that we have, the positions that we're going to address. And I guess that's an element of it. Like the fact that they're just not quite there yet. that I think Mikel Arteta is so detailed in his thinking and so sort of obsessed with marginal gains and how you really benefit from those things that he would have absolutely, you know, considered that when recruiting.

18:45And he might not be the be-all and end-all with regards to why he selected those players, but it's certainly a fact that you've got to believe it is. Yeah. Can I ask you, you know, what you think of our transfer window as it stands right now? You know, are you pleased with the business that we've done? I mean, listen, we're going to talk about Julian Alvarez and what else might happen. But in terms of what we've actually added, are you in a good place with where we are? Are you desperate, desperate, desperate for something else? Or do you think something else would be more like sort of the icing on the cake of this window or somewhere in between?

19:23I'm in a place right now where I feel like the business we've done so far is very good. Esri Consa is about as good as it gets in terms of bringing in an experienced, Premier League-proven defender that's going to come in and, you know, help us cope with Saliba's absence and then be a member of the squad going forward. I also think with that one, the fact that Ben White's had so many injury problems and that Jurian Timber's coming back from another surgery, that's why Consa was chosen and that's why Arsenal were willing to pay the money that they did for him. So that one I really like. Bruno Guimaraes, I think, is a fantastic sign-in.

19:56I know a lot of people sort of turned their noses up at the price that was quoted initially. Funnily enough, we got him for far less than what Newcastle were asking for or seemingly asking for at the start. And so that feels like really good business. Solis is a much better player than people gave him credit for. I think he's shown that over in Belgium and at international level over the last few seasons. And it's great to sort of see everybody else now kind of waking up to, because I've watched the Greek national team a lot. I don't expect everybody else to, but I do. So when we were signing him, I wasn't like, oh my God, this is going to change our world because you always have that doubt about whether he'll be able to adapt and adjust.

20:36And, you know, there's always an exchange rate, isn't there, in terms of your outputs. You look at Jocares in Portugal, he might bag 50 goals, but in England, it's more like 20. So you don't really know what you're going to get in terms of those outputs. But the early signs are good. I think for me, I feel like, Andrew, we could do with one more attack in signing. I think particularly with Martinelli close to a move away, particularly with Ethan Waneri being linked with a move away as well on loan. I just think that it's not kind of a must-have right now, but it is an opportunity that we have to strengthen our grip on the Premier League right now at a time where so many other clubs are going through the changes that we've already kind of touched on.

21:19And there would be a part of me that come the end of the window, if we don't do anything else, would say, did we miss an opportunity? And I've probably asked myself that question various times over the course of the season. What I will say, though, is if you are worried about the attack based on last season, and a lot of people are, and with justification, just having Odegaard, Havertz, Saka fit, Marino fit, available far more than they were last season, by default makes us a much better attacking team. And so I think it's okay to say you want more, but I also think you cannot forget that. That is a really important factor here.

21:59And that's probably the comfort blanket that Mikel has over him at the moment when, as we're recording this, it doesn't look like we're close to doing another deal for another big name player. Yeah. I mean, the idea I think that the Arsenal attack could do with a boost is fairly widely held as a widely held opinion among Arsenal fans, right? I think as well, you look around and you look at what's happening and you look at who's available on the market. I think there was probably an acceptance that there isn't really the guy, the one guy we absolutely must get. You know, this is the opportunity that's available to us.

22:40Even the Alvarez one, whatever you think of, whether he'd improve us or not, or it's too complicated, et cetera. You know, that is a situation which is a bit like on the long finger. Nevertheless, the way Arseneuve, I mean, it's hard because they try and do things quietly as much as possible. But we know they were after Morgan Rodgers. and whether they chose not to go for Morgan Rodgers or whether Morgan Rodgers was swooped away from them by Chelsea going in harder and faster and better, whatever. We know he was a player that Arsenal were really, really interested in and they didn't get him. And we know then that Arsenal wanted to sign Vinicius Junior because they felt there was an opportunity for that deal to happen.

23:23That didn't go through, as we know. And I don't think you can argue with the ambition, But I think those two players in particular tell us that Arsenal wanted something else in the attacking third. And I know Rodgers, where exactly he was going to play or how exactly he might fit. You know, that is a discussion that people can have and will probably differ on. But if we are the champions and if we have accepted or made it clear that we think that we need something else in attack and we don't get it, it is going to feel quite underwhelming, isn't it? Particularly, let's say, if you let Martinelli go, if you sell Gabriel Martinelli, you get 60 million quid for him.

24:04I mean, even in this market, you know, I know there'll be discussions and debates about whether or not we're getting the same kind of prices that other teams get for their players. And I think that's entirely valid, to be honest. but if they let Martinelli go and they don't bring anybody in, that's a less strong squad or forward line than we had going into last season. Because if you take the Solace-Trossard thing as like for like in inverted commas, then, yeah, it's hard to really stand behind that as a window that has improved our attack. And I take your point, by the way, and I think it's absolutely right, that if you have Havertz, Odegaard, Saka fitter and available more readily and more often and they find form and rhythm, then our attack can improve because of that, right?

24:55But in terms of personnel, it's a different question. Yeah, I've been sort of wondering, you know, what it is that Mikel is thinking. And I don't know what he's thinking, right? But I'm trying to kind of piece the puzzle together, if that makes sense. And I just wonder if you're going to see, for example, Eze used as a left-sided player more this season. Is that something that he's got in mind, which in his mind and in Arsenal's minds, reduces the need to go and get another wide left player? You know, is that something that they're considering maybe? And again, it's not necessarily something I would do.

25:32As I've said, I'd prefer that we go and get someone, but I'm just trying to think about maybe how they're looking at it. I just think the whole thing with transfers is a lot of it is perception. And we're at a stage now where the window is coming towards its conclusion. And we've gone through this rollercoaster as Arsenal fans, as you've kind of alluded to, where we thought we were getting Rodgers. We thought we were getting Vinny Jr. and let's face it, some of us were sceptical about it, but we had that hope, right? Yeah, we hoped more than absolutely thought we were going to get him. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

26:06But there comes a point, doesn't there, where if you're linked with Vinicius Jr., it doesn't get better than that in terms of left-wingers. So anybody that you sign off the back of that will feel like an underwhelming option, i.e. this is a great example. People keep talking about Marcus Rashford. I don't think Marcus Rashford is for Arsenal. But imagine the reaction to signing Marcus Rashford after you've been linked with Vinicius Jr. and Julian Alvarez. The reaction becomes even more dramatic and it becomes even more frustrating for people because you've almost toyed with the idea or felt that you were on your way to getting the very best.

26:48And then it feels like you've settled. And the truth is, when you talk Vinny Jr., most players are going to feel like that in comparison. So I think we have to be really careful about allowing ourselves to get carried away by the narratives. As you said, Arsenal try their best to do this stuff quietly and behind the scenes. The world that we live in now means that that's almost impossible. There's so many people involved in these deals and transfers and talks and discussions. It's really hard to keep it under wraps. But the reactions that that causes and the perceptions that that leads to can be unhelpful.

27:22And I think we've got to try and stay level-headed and remember that we have a really good team. And that was really kind of hammered home for me by the fact that we've had to leave some big players out of squads already this season. What does that tell you about our strength in depth? We're in a great place. No, I agree. I agree. I think, you know, transfer windows are, even if you accept you've got a good team, everyone's still kind of invested in the idea that you could make it better. you know whether you're finished you finished eighth or fifth or second or first there's still that thing like well we could do more we could make ourselves better and more potent and i do think there is a very solid argument for that in terms of of the arsenal forward line i mean where do you stand on the the alvarez stuff right because it's rumbling on it's complicated did Barcelona, Joan Laporta came out with a statement yesterday, which, you know, I'm paraphrasing here.

28:19He was like, we think you should just sell Julian Alvarez to us. You know, it would be nice. We've offered you some money. Give the player what he wants. Don't be so mean. And Atletico Madrid responded pretty quickly. And it was like, shut the fuck up, you cunt. We're not going to sell you Julian Alvarez at all. and the player is in a bit of a pickle, right? Because he wants to go to Barcelona. And I think, you know, above and beyond the player wanting to go to Barcelona, I think you have to remember, and we know this as Arsenal fans, Harry, because we've been down this road before. We know that it's not just about the player wanting to go to Barcelona.

29:02It is about Barcelona, like, wooing the player and saying, come here, you'll have the greatest time. You know, this is one of the best clubs in the world, which, you know, historically is true, right? But we know that Barcelona do a lot of work in the background to sort of undermine a player's position at another club, right? It happened with us with big players in the past. So that's been sort of going on for months and months and months and months, right? But now we're at an impasse because, like, unless Atletico get 500 million from Barcelona, which is impossible, they're going to look like feeble, weak idiots if they then turn around and sell Julian Alvarez to Barcelona.

29:48So I'd be surprised if that happened. The player, though, can he sit it out at Atletico Madrid? Can he just sort of like deal with a few boos for some weeks and then score some goals? And it doesn't make everyone forget, you know, but it is a nice salve to any kind of wound or burn that might exist between him and the supporters. Score some goals, tap the badge a little bit, and everyone's fucking happy, right? Or does he think, well, my position here is untenable. Arsenal is an option. If Arsenal are willing to finance that deal, you know, in terms of a transfer fee and in terms of the fee that Atletico Madrid would want and the wages that he would want, you know, is it a serious option for him?

30:36Or is this a situation where it's so complicated, it's so contentious and complex, and the player doesn't really want to come, that maybe, you know, after a summer in which we didn't get Vinicius Jr., we didn't get Morgan Rodgers, it would be an unfortunate hat trick from an Arsenal perspective, wouldn't it, not to get a player like this if we're very publicly going after them? Yeah, I'm really torn on this because if I go back to when Alvarez was leaving Manchester City, I remember recording a podcast and saying, go and get him, whatever it takes, go and get him. He's the guy, he's the player.

31:13I cannot put into words how much I rate Julian Alvarez, the player, when he's at it, when he's happy. He's just a brilliant, brilliant forward that can offer you so much. He can go in behind, he can drop deep. He's really clever. you know he's a cold-blooded killer in front of goal when he gets opportunities I rate him so so highly but my apprehension all stems from the fact that he doesn't want to join Arsenal first and foremost he wants to join Barcelona and and we read so many reports when he was in England of how unhappy he was with life in England that I just I don't see what's changed between then and now to kind of really make it work for us again if he comes in and it's kind of that thing where do you back yourself as a football club to once you get your hands on him to be able to put your arm around him make him a success in England and all of a sudden if you're a success and you're the main man at one of the biggest clubs in the reigning Premier League champions that's very different to playing second fiddle to Erling Haaland up in Manchester stuff so do you back yourself as a club enough to be able to to bridge that gap between where he's at and where he needs to be in terms of happiness yeah but that's a big risk to take because you're essentially dropping a whole load of money on a player that you haven't got the complete buying from and we hear so much don't we about Mikel Arteta and the conversations he has with players prior to their arrival and you know how you know he needs to really kind of feel it from them I'd be so curious to know if it doesn't materialize that he joins Barca because I get what you're saying that Atletico would look really silly if they then went and sold him to Barca but I still wouldn't put it past Barcelona managing to land Julien Alvarez somehow between now and the end of this window it's almost like do you really want to go that extra mile and and will Arteta kind of break his own rules essentially to bring this guy in like does he rate him so highly that he'd be willing to go, I haven't got that same confidence and buying that I got from lots of other players when I was talking to them, but this guy is so good that I'm going to do that.

33:19We are at a different stage now, which allows for that kind of exception to be made. Because even with the Vinny Jr. pursuit, we went all in on that, knowing that the likely outcome was still probably that he'd stay at Real Madrid. And it was always communicated to Arsenal based on what we read, that if the contract terms were right, Real Madrid was the option for him. Sure. So are we showing a different face? Are we going at things in a different way and taking a slightly different approach? I think if we did do this deal, it would show a real shift actually. And I think there will be apprehension from a lot of people and I understand why.

33:56But like you said in the Athletic case, score a few goals and tap the badge and nobody's going to remember that. Well, that's it. I mean, the sort of, I don't know if it's linked per se, but like Martinelli Alvarez in appears to be where the transfer window activity happens. But do you see Alvarez as, despite the fact he can play on the left, do you think that's where Mikel Arteta would be looking at him as being the upgrade? Or do you think centre forward is where he would primarily use this guy? And if that is the case, then there's a very significant knock-on effect for one of the existing centre forwards, isn't there?

34:32Because Kai Havertz, Victor Jocherez, Gabriel Jesus is there, but we'll come to him in a little while. I mean, if the idea is to play Alvarez as a center forward option, then one of those two, one of Havertz and Jokeres, and I kind of have an idea in my mind which one would miss out the most based on Mikel Arteta's preferences or apparent preferences, that's another situation that adds complexity to any deal for Alvarez, isn't it? Because maybe you just sort of keep your squad that big, but then you're dealing with at least one very, very unhappy player. And that's not ideal either. No, you're absolutely right.

35:14I think that's the bit with the Alvarez thing that I've struggled to get my head around. We keep talking about left wingers, but actually Alvarez is not a left winger. Can he play off of the left if you allow him the license to tuck in and get close to the centre forward? I'm sure he can because he's that intelligent. you know and I'm sure creating those 1v1s for him against the fullback you'd really benefit from that as well because of the skill set that this player has but it's yeah you're right there's there's another there's another issue to consider here and that is what happens with with Havertz and I think we can safely say that as well as I did at times last season and I'm not trying to downplay his contribution to the title win when push came to shove at the end of the season Mikel clearly showed which one of those two players he prefers yeah um and I do think that when Kai Havertz is fit and firing he he knits things together that bit better than Victor Jokic and as a team we look far more um you know potent so I think that's that's an interesting element to this but if I've said already that Eze is someone that I think that Mikel might use from the left hand side more then that would indicate and it's just my prediction by the way but if I believe that then And I have to believe that he's willing to be a little bit more creative in terms of what he does on that left-hand side and not so rigid in the fact that it has to be an out-and-out left winger.

36:37So, you know, I think for that reason, I could see him maybe bringing him in and using him in a slightly different role. Who knows? But at the end of the day, this is a top, top quality player. And if it was only about how good he is and the fit and finding a way of getting him into the team, I wouldn't even worry about that for a minute. it's just that thing of does he want to be here because if you don't want to be part of a Mikel team and you don't want to be all in on it it can go south for you very very quickly as we've seen with other players that have been at Arsenal in the past and you can be looking back at it as a disastrous transfer yeah that cost you a load of money and from which you gain nothing so that's the bit that Arsenal got to figure out for me I mean do you think there's any sort of mechanism in which his position at Atletico becomes so untenable that he absolutely wants to go and they want him to go, but he's not necessarily committed to a long-term deal at Arsenal, that maybe there's some kind of loan arrangement between the clubs.

37:39And I know that sounds kind of absurd, given the quality of the player, but if it is that contentious, and if they are treating him in a way which is sort of pushing him out, but Arsenal are maybe concerned about the level of commitment. I know this kind of kicks the can down the road for Atletico and for the player for a year, but as a solution for 12 months in which time, you know, he can do a job, Barcelona can do whatever more groundwork they do, you know, so it might be something that happens next season. You know, Jacarese goes the other way. There was something like that before, wasn't there?

38:14There was Julio Baptista and Jose Antonio Reyes, if you remember. Again, not particularly successful, it's fair to say, but it was a solution that the two clubs came to, Real Madrid and Arsenal at that time, because Reyes was so unhappy at Arsenal, he just kind of had to get out, but there wasn't the appetite or the way to sell him at that time, et cetera, et cetera. So is it one of those where we might see an unlikely solution towards the very, very end of the window? Or do you expect maybe if Arsenal aren't convinced to look a little bit elsewhere, who that might be or what kind of player that might be?

38:55I just don't know at this point of the window. But is that a possibility at all, do you think? I like to think that Arsenal would look at that. And I think that kind of works for everybody because if Atletico Madrid are actually going to be as stubborn as they say they are. Because again, I keep coming back to this point. I'm still not, like if I had to, if you said to me, bet your house on Atletico Madrid keeping Julian Alvarez, I wouldn't do it. Because I just, you know, I don't think you can do that in football, given the amounts of money that we're talking about flying around. If someone's offering you a hundred million pounds for something that is just going to be a disaster for you and a problem for you going into this season, then you probably take it at the very end stage.

39:43But if that was to be a solution, whereby Arsenal were to bring him in for a year on loan, pay a bit of a fee, of course, take on his wages, of course, but that kicks the can down the road for Atletico and saves face for them a little bit, whereby in 12 months' time, if they do then decide to sell him to Barcelona, if he doesn't stay at Arsenal, they can almost go, well, yeah, look, we didn't give him directly to Barcelona. We loaned him out to Arsenal first. and they don't want to sign him or he doesn't want to stay there. And so he's going to join kind of Barca off the back of that. It helps them save face a little bit in the whole situation.

40:20And a year down the line, this is not going to be the conversation anymore. The narrative is going to be something different. And even if that deal then does happen, it won't be, oh, look at Atletico Madrid that were bullied in the summer window to sell their player. No, they loaned him out first and then they sold him. I think it saves face and works for everyone. So I'd love to think that that's maybe going to be on the table. I'm not sure it will, but it's certainly something that I'd be in favour of. Yeah. Do you have any sense that maybe Arsenal have a contingency in mind? You know, the Alvarez, I don't know either.

40:54I mean, that's, you know, we're all sort of shooting in the dark a little bit here. The idea that we would sell Martinelli and not bring anybody in if it's not Alvarez. Bradley Barclay, for example, has gone to Liverpool. I think we all expected that to happen. You talked about the perception of the transfer window, right? And Liverpool bringing in a very quick left-sided winger might chap the hide a little bit of Arsenal fans who want a new signing. And I do get that. I mean, one of the sort of under-discussed aspects of the Gabriel Martinelli departure is that I feel like this leaves us without any significant pace in the team.

41:37Agreed. You know, and pace isn't everything. And, you know, we've seen plenty of very quick players who can't really produce. But I also think you do need a bit of that in the team. Maybe Nani Maduweke is somebody who's got that pace and maybe an example of somebody who doesn't produce the end product you would like. But is that a factor? Do you think in the way Arsenal might approach whatever else they could do in this window? That if you let Martinelli go, you know, your counterattacking becomes a lot less rapid. And we've seen Gabriel Martinelli in his time at Arsenal score some very, very, very good counterattacking goals.

42:18you know those runs from inside his own half um you know i know they don't happen that often but there's been more than one of those uh in the past so is that something that would concern you about the makeup of the arsenal squad if and when Martinelli does go yeah definitely definitely because he's the one that you've always looked at for that kind of explosive speed um i think Bukayo Saka's got other strengths i'm not saying he's a slouch but he's certainly not got that Martinelli level of pace and directness that you can really benefit from in, as you've mentioned, those counterattacking situations.

42:50I also think like there's players that like to kind of get the ball at their feet, put their foot on it, slow things down, have a look at what's going on, and then like to kind of use their technical ability to maybe unpick a defense. And then there's other players like Gabriel Martinelli that aren't always perfect, but are almost just relentless in the way that they do things. And when Martinelli is at his best and he beats fullbacks for fun, it's because he's worn them down because every time he gets the ball, he wants to take them on the outside every single time. And that gets tiring as a defender.

43:23You know, it's coming, but you're running out of gas and you just can't keep up with it over and over again. So there won't be that same type of pacey, but also relentless attacker in that forward line. if we let him go and we don't replace. In terms of having a contingency, if you'd asked me this, if we were having this conversation three, four years ago, I'd say, yeah, I'm confident that Arsenal have something up their sleeve. They have something in their back pocket that they're willing to pull out if they don't get what they want, right? But nowadays, because of how difficult it has become, as we kind of alluded to already, to keep this stuff under wraps completely until the really final stages, because of how much information is out there.

44:08I find it difficult to believe that they'd be far enough down the line with anybody at this stage in the window as an alternative. And it just be like, you know, you wake up tomorrow morning and, you know, David Oornstein or James McNicholas reports, bang, Arsenal in advance talks for X player. And it's come completely out of the blue. It could happen, but I feel like it's unlikely this day and age. and so in years gone by when I used to get to the end of a window and go don't worry don't panic you know there's something and we just don't know about it yet I feel less confident saying that in in 2026.

44:43Sure and listen I haven't had any uh haven't had any inside information from James McNicholas I can tell you about any potential deals uh that that might be happening maybe as well you know when you're trying to improve and when you're trying to get from you know fifth to second to first you need those contingency plans a little more than you do when you're already the champions but we will have to wait and see what happens with what with what remains of of the transfer window on what Arsenal might do it does feel a little bit like sort of broadening it out Harry just it does feel a bit like the market forces are going to take effect over the course of this weekend and maybe Monday and Tuesday of next week where where things do happen and I guess the the example to sort of counter your, your point of view there will be what happened with Mesut Ozil, for example.

45:36I know it was slightly different time, but we were still very much in the, the technological age and Twitter was a thing back then, you know, for transfers and it was hard to keep things under wraps. You couldn't do an Eduardo da Silva thing where all of a sudden Arsenal just announced a transfer and everyone went, what, who? But, you know, So because of the way things played out in the final 72 hours of the window, players became available, players got on the market. Do you think some of those moving pieces might just shift, you know, a move or a player in our direction that we're not expecting?

46:14I wouldn't rule that out. I think that this is going to be the busiest end to a transfer window you've seen probably since the last World Cup. Because obviously everything's been on delay. everything's been um you know pushed back a little bit and the start to the window felt a little bit slower than normal because obviously you had the tournament you had players going away yet which make things logistically more difficult at times also i'd imagine there were clubs that were sort of in some cases acting early to get players in because they thought if they went to the world cup and did well that would push the price up but equally there have been others that were waiting for the World Cup to try and help them identify players and maybe convince them, you know, at the end of the day on certain targets.

46:59So I think that the knock-on effect of the World Cup is big here. Maybe you will see some market movement that allows for something to kind of fall our way in terms of the likelihood of it. But personally, I'm just struggling to see who that is and how that happens. And if I can't see it myself, like, I almost don't want to pin my hopes on it potentially happening because I think we could be sitting here on Tuesday at about 4 p.m. going, yeah, nothing's happening. This is a bit deflating. And I'd rather almost manage my expectations from now. And maybe that's playing it safe and people are going to say it's boring and all the rest of it.

47:36But I just think it's very, very easy when you're as good as we are right now and when you're the reigning Premier League champions and when you went to the Champions League final last season to be obsessed with transfers because it's all we've talked about all summer but actually with the football starting up I mean if we go and beat Villa convincingly on Monday night at Villa Park that again people will feel more comfortable then won't they about yeah maybe not doing business on Tuesday so I think yeah I kind of just I'm in this place Andrew where I just want the football to start and I almost don't want what we have to be lost in the transfer chat to the point where we're sort of desperate and driving ourselves crazy about something that we might not actually even need well people not driving themselves crazy over transfers is a wonderful idea utopian one might say but you know uh maybe we'll get there one day i mean we do have a couple of questions from our discord members um more about some players that are leaving i did enjoy that story this morning i don't know if you saw it it's from the Pletigold guy who said that the Hamburg sporting director flew into London to have a chat with Fabio Vieira and met with Andrea Berta, but there were no negotiations about the transfer of Fabio Vieira, which seems to me like a strange one, maybe a missed opportunity there.

48:56But that interest from Hamburg in Vieira is real. And that might, as much as the transfer of Fabio Vieira can go down to the wire, it looks like that might be the case with him. But we had questions about Gabriel Jesus. And Borna says, are we miffed at Jesus for sticking out the remainder of his contract? And the Lebanese Don says, how disappointed are you in Gabriel Jesus for choosing to run down his contract? I'm not sure if that's absolutely 100 % the case with Gabriel Jesus. Like we should say he's perfectly entitled to see out his contract. He was given a contract by Arsenal. He's not doing anything wrong.

49:38If he chooses to stay, then, you know, Arsenal have to take some responsibility in that because they're the ones that gave him the contract. Nevertheless, I sort of understand why people would like to see him leave. You know, what do you make of that situation? Do you think it's Jesus refusing to leave or not really having anywhere to go? Yeah, I don't think it's as strong as or as clean cut as gabriel jesus going i'm not going anywhere give me my however much it is 300 gram whatever's reported a week and i'm just going to take that until the contract ends i legitimately like and i've been lucky enough to interview gabriel jesus a couple of times and you can tell how much he loves football you can tell that the fact that he's not playing is eating him up inside a little bit when he has i've interviewed him a couple of times when he's come back from injuries and you can see the enthusiasm in his eyes to kind of be back out there and play.

50:34I don't doubt for a second that this guy would prefer to play football than sit on his backside and collect a massive paycheck with very little role to play and with barely anything to contribute. But I also think that when you're on that salary and when you're in a good place financially, you probably don't want to just settle. Like he probably doesn't want to go and play for a Serie A club, for example, who are going to pay him half the salary that he's on now. The deal has to work for Gabriel Jesus. But I honestly believe if something comes up, and I think it might between now and the end of the window, I think if you're a club that's interested in him, you're going to look at that and you're going to say, well, let's leave this till the last few days because the chances of us getting a much more favourable fee are going to be enhanced by the fact that Arsenal are getting towards the end of the window, probably want to get him off the wage bill.

51:26And, you know, that can work for us. so I think that's often the case when there isn't that demand for players often the move will happen late on in the window so I wouldn't rule it out but I don't I don't subscribe to this idea that Gabriel Jesus I know that's not what the guys are saying in the discord but you you do hear people going well he's a money grabber and he only cares about the money and doesn't care about football anymore I don't think it's it's that deep I really don't I think he's a guy that wants to play football and if the right offer comes he will take it yeah I don't think that offers come yet No, I agree.

51:56I think the point about leaving until late in the window is a really good one because I think it's pretty clear that Arsenal would be happy for him to move on, right? He wasn't in the squad for the Community Shield. He wasn't in the squad for the game against Coventry. He's unlikely to be in the squad for the game against Aston Villa. but if you leave it till the 11th hour and arsenal are like oh god okay well listen we'll take you know 10 million less than we wanted or you know we will let you cover x amount of his wage and we'll give him a little bit of a payoff to say thank you very much you know blah blah blah your chances of doing a deal that's more favorable to you are much higher aren't they you know and I guess ultimately that's what most clubs are looking for is like the best possible deal.

52:45That's why transfers are negotiated, right? You want the best possible deal that you can get for your own club. And I think you're probably going to see something similar happen with Fabio Vieira as well. Like I, sorry, but I mean, unless they're great friends and I have no idea about it, you don't just go and have a meeting with Andrea Berta and avoid the whole subject unless you are planning in the coming days to revisit this thing. And you're buttering him up a little bit, basically. I think it is the case. And it's always been the case when you're trying to get rid of players that, you know, everybody knows you want rid of and everybody knows are not a part of your plans, that the real kind of flurry of activity is going to happen at the back end of the window.

53:26And throughout this window, I've been pretty calm about the Vieira thing, the Nelson thing, the Jesus thing, because I've always been kind of mindful of the fact that that's probably how it's going to go down. I wouldn't be surprised if in the last two, three days, you know, you see all of those players depart but if you're a buying club like getting him in now isn't going to make a difference to getting him in in a couple of days time and if you can save a good chunk of money doing that you're going to take that opportunity because we're not talking top-end clubs by the way we're not talking Manchester City's and Liverpool's and PSG's and Barcelona's you know in Jesus's case we're probably looking at Italy where financially they're nowhere near on the same playing field as the Premier League and that's got worse increasingly over the years in the Fabio Vieira case.

54:12I mean, Arsenal don't want him. How obvious could it be that Arsenal don't want him? Why would you go and give them what they want from the outset? You wouldn't, would you? It'd be silly to do that. It's like going into a shop and seeing a chocolate bar priced at 99p and saying to the shopkeeper, here's£2.50. Why would you do that? It's mad. So in that sense, you have some sympathy with Arsenal's inability to move those players on because, I mean, listen, the flip side of it is, as you say, the footballing element, right? Fabio Vieira, I'm sure, would prefer to be playing football for Hamburg.

54:45And you mentioned Gabriel Jesus, Rhys Nelson. I mean, I'd love to think that playing football is more important to him than the wages he's on at Arsenal. I'm not, you know, it's always been a bit of a struggle to find somewhere for Rhys to go, right? but if Arsenal are trying to move them on they are at the as Arteta keeps saying there's more than you know one person involved in a deal it's not just down to us in this sense it's down to what those other clubs are willing to do and when they're willing to do it yeah and you know just on that point about having the sympathy for Arsenal in these situations when I think about it logically I do when I think about all the things we've just discussed I think this is difficult and we as fans should accept that and understand that it takes a little bit of time and it's probably going to be that flurry of activity, as I say, towards the back end of the window.

55:41But then you look at like the way Chelsea do it and the way Man City do it and like the way they can bring in players who are clearly surplus to requirements at that club and flip them for good money. Like I know you can make a case that there's skullduggery going on there. You can make that case. but you can certainly say there's something untoward potentially going on there but I think again it's about perception perception is kind of like my key word of this transfer window where if Man City do something in terms of a sale then you start to look at our players and go well why can't we do that we're not the same we're not run the same we will never be run the same and I think that rather than hammering Arsenal for struggling to get rid of these players you should probably be digging into what some of these other clubs are doing in terms of the inflated valuations and the, let's say, somewhat shady looking at least deals that these clubs are engaging in every single summer.

56:40I think it's also just true to say some clubs are better at selling than Arsenal. In fact, maybe most clubs. But how do you get better at selling? I don't, well, I mean, how do you judge the selling? Is it like your ability to get rid of unwanted players or is it based on how much money you bring in? Like, what could we have got if we wanted, like, if we sold Miles Lewis Skelly, right? Yeah. You get a big fucking lump of money from Miles Lewis Skelly, but nobody's happy. Nobody's going to say. Everybody was screaming at the suggestion. Exactly. That it was even a thing, like even a conversation.

57:18The meltdown was unbelievable. Yeah. For valid reasons, right? Yeah. But that's the idea is that, well, you know, they've sold better because they brought in 80, 90 million quid for Myles Lewis Kelly, which I think would be like something, you know, what the market rate is when you look at some of the prices going for other players. Maybe more, you know, you look at what's being paid for some fairly middling talents. And some of that is desperation on part of the buying club, right, because they need to raise their own level. But at the same time, yeah, I don't know that anyone would say, well, Arsenal sold really well this summer if they sold Christian Norgard, Leandro Trossard, Jakob Kivior, whose fee came in, and Myles Lewis-Gelly, as well as getting rid of Vieira.

58:04You know, it really is, again, it's about perception. It's about what people think. Before we go, I just quite enjoyed this question. it is related to a former Arsenal player and Gagan Jay on the Discord says, if Chelsea do sign Emi Martinez, does this iteration of their squad become the most repulsive Premier League squad in history? I looked at that story yesterday. I think it was David Ornstein who reported it and I went, but of course, of course. I mean, of course. Yeah, of course for so many reasons. But like if we take all of that out of it for just a second, like there's, there can't be a person in the world that watched Chelsea's opening game at Fulham and doesn't believe that they need a new goalkeeper.

58:49No, no. And it was like, and it's not a new thing. It's like you're looking at Robert Sanchez play poorly and you're going, oh yeah, that was their problem last season. Like this has been ongoing for ages and they've never addressed it. And they've tried to bring in other goalkeepers that they've had in their squad who have had short runs. It's not really worked out. They've landed back on Sanchez because everybody keeps telling me that he's good with his feet. But ultimately, like if I'm Chelsea, I'm making that move. It makes sense. And, you know, Villa were willing to sell him to Juve for something very cheap.

59:19So I don't think it's going to cost Chelsea anything significant to get him in. And you're right. You know, if we had reason to dislike Emi Martinez for the fact that he was crying about his Arsenal career, even two years after it ending, him joining Chelsea is only going to add to the stick he's going to get from our lot. That's absolutely true. All right. Well, listen, we'll see how that goes down and we'll see what else happens between now and the end of the transfer window. We'll leave it there, Harry. Pleasure to talk to you as always and hopefully we catch up again soon. Thank you very much for having me, mate.

59:51Always a pleasure.

59:56Hi, Pod fans. Max Rushton here from the chart-topping Guardian Football Weekly Podcast. Don't like to crow. If you enjoyed the World Cup with us, you'll be glad to know we're back for the new Premier League season. Expect three episodes a week, questionable predictions, and the biggest stories in soccer from the Premier League to the Champions League and beyond. Watch now on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. Summer gave your home a workout. Cookouts, long weekends, probably at-home improvement lists that never quite got finished. And now it's fall's turn.

1:00:24And Lowe's is making the changeover easy with their Labor Day deals. Right now, save up to 45 % off select major appliances. So if something's been on your list, this is the time. Doing laundry? You can save an extra$100 on select laundry pairs. And if you're getting the yard ready for fall, head over and grab three bags of Miracle-Gro 0.75 cubic foot garden soil for just$10. So don't miss these Labor Day deals at Lowe's. Valid through September 9th while supplies last. Selection varies by location. See Lowe's.com for more details. The soil offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii.

1:01:24I suspect, however, that he will be playing whatever cards he has very, very close to his chest. So we're just going to have to wait and see. That is how it goes. It transfers an Arsenal under Mikel Arteta. The Champions League draw, by the way, takes place this evening around five o 'clock in the afternoon. So we will know our group stage or our league stage opponents in the Champions League. So that is something we can talk about in a bit more detail when we look ahead to the Villa game in more detail in our preview podcast, which will be available to our Patreon members on Saturday morning.

1:02:02So you can join us for that. We'll look ahead to the Villa game. We'll get the team news, injury news, Champions League draw and whatever else is shaken out in the transfer window between now and then. If there's anything at all, we can discuss it there. If you'd like to get involved with that, patreon.com forward slash arseblog is where you can sign up. It costs just$6 a month plus sales tax or VAT, depending on where you are in the world and wherever you are in the world. I hope you're doing all right. I hope you're well. There's a lot going on. Quite a lot of it is not good, but I hope you and yours are doing okay, that you're doing well and that everything is hunky-dory in your world.

1:02:38If you've got to this point of the podcast, it probably is. unless you're escaping from something, in which case I wish we could give you more, but we're right at the end. So thank you, as always, for being here, for downloading, for listening, for supporting everything that we do on Arseblog. For now, folks, take it easy, and we will catch you on the next one. Until then, cheers. Bye-bye.

1:03:23I'm out.

1:03:44Hi, Pod fans. Max Rushton here from the chart-topping Guardian Football Weekly podcast. Don't like to crow. If you enjoyed the World Cup with us, you'll be glad to know we're back for the new Premier League season. Expect three episodes a week, questionable predictions, and the biggest stories in soccer from the Premier League to the Champions League and beyond. Watch now on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Closed Captions by Captioning available for a free version about виде Wetboard