Episode 895 - Almost a billion ...

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0:59Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on Arseblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. Excuse me one moment. I forgot to shut the door. The door is now shut and I can continue with whatever it is I'm going to say, which is, I suppose, that this week has been dominated by the big story. Manchester City, the Premier League statement. It is something we talked about in the Arsecast Extra on Sunday. But since then, a lot has happened. We've had that Premier League statement. The ripple effects are enormous. As football fans, we're all still trying to come to terms with the scale of this cheating.

1:44900 million pounds was a figure in the Premier League statement. That is almost a billion pounds between 2010 and 2018. and that's assuming that they just kind of went straight in 2018. And I'm not 100 % convinced that that is the case, but that, of course, was the scope of the investigation. There's been so much said, so much written, so much spoken about, and we're going to do that today with Philippe O 'Claire. He is my guest today, and who better to talk to to delve into the grimy underworld of what has been a remarkable few days. Even if we knew in the background there was something going on at Manchester City, I can't lie and say that I've not been taken aback a little bit by just how big it is and how strident the Premier League statement has been and the findings have been.

2:38And ultimately, I suppose we'll wait and see what the sanctions are for Manchester City. But before we get into all of that, I just wanted to take a moment because, listen, when you think about this, when you expand it out, the number of people who've been impacted by Manchester City's cheating are, well, it's incalculable, really, isn't it, in terms of the sport, the players, the managers, the fans. Far and wide, the impact of this cheating has been felt in the game of football and beyond. And look, lots of people have done good work trying to expose this and trying to bring stuff like this to light.

3:18Corruption in football, many brilliant, brilliant journalists have been doing really, really good work. But can we take a moment, please, please, just before we get into everything, can we take a moment to think about the real victim here? And that is, of course, Richard Keyes.

3:38Philippe Auclair: I am, and you know this better than most. I am astounded that I've been the only voice in the media for the last eight years that has consistently spoken on this subject. And I have been abused morning, noon and night and by some fairly high profile individuals. Liam Gallagher being one of those. Oh, yeah. Who has referred to me consistently as a spunk bubble. Well, who is the spunk bubble now, Liam? Finally, justice for Richard Keyes Who is the spunk bubble now, Liam Gallagher? You think you're so high and mighty with your worldwide success in one of the biggest rock bands ever But you have been shown up by a hairy-handed man Who, thankfully, has been the only voice in the media speaking about Manchester City The only one over the last eight years Not a single journalist, not a single blogger, not a single reporter, not a single podcaster, not one publication, not one media outlet said a single thing about Manchester City and the 115 charges.

4:49So we applaud you for your bravery, Richard Keyes. We applaud you for being out there front and center. And to me, you'll always be the biggest spunk bubble of them all. right let's get on with the show as i said my guest this morning is philippo clare good morning philippe an excellent morning to you and to everyone well well well well well well um i i do want to ask you about the the statement that came out this week because obviously the news of the 114 of the 115 charges being proven. Manchester City guilty came out last week. But the Premier League statement that dropped, I think, on Tuesday, am I right?

5:35Yeah, yeah, Tuesday, absolutely. 29th September. It pulled zero punches. Were you, as I was, I have to say, a little bit taken aback with quite how unequivocal the Premier League were with regards to this statement? Or do you think that this is just essentially a consequence of they've come to this decision, come to these verdicts on Manchester City, it's taken such a long time, it's been such a protracted, obstructed process that finally being able to speak on this has meant that they were absolutely not willing to let Manchester City off the hook in any way?

6:19Philippe Auclair: There might be an element of this, all this pent up frustration, the anger as well at the way City have conducted themselves throughout the process, the way that they have tried to stall it, to put obstacles in front of everything. The colossal amount of money this has cost the Premier League, let's not forget that, an awful lot of money. but I think the main reason for this and I was yes like you surprised by the the tone of the statement we're not used to receive to read statements like that from the Premier League or by the way from any football organization but it's based on the tone of the actual report of the independent commission which is 40 pages long and I really encourage everybody to read it.

7:12Philippe Auclair: It is not one of those sterile legal documents. It's actually fascinating. And the tone is so strong and it's totally unequivocal. And basically, there are a few zones of shade, but on such minor details that they don't really matter. so what we have is is truly a uh a picture in black and white um and a picture which i have to say is even worse than you know what we were expecting i mean if it were dorian gray um obviously because they try to present themselves with the face of the young, successful, ever-youthful Dorian. But that's it. We've been up in the attic now and we've seen what they really look like.

8:11Philippe Auclair: And my goodness, this is appalling. And the statement reflects, I think, that the seriousness. Also, it gives absolutely zero maneuvering space to City, even though, of course, and I'm sure we'll talk about that, their reactions, their official reactions, Pep Guardiola's absolutely disgraceful statement. We'll get to him. We'll get to him with great pleasure. But yes, I mean, I was surprised. But I have to say, I was also delighted, like so many others, that first of all, the process is now entering a new phase it's it's not over but it's entering a new phase and we can now say out loud clear without fear of having very well-paid lawyers going into going after us that manchester city are very very guilty of what we all knew they were guilty of and ufa knew they were guilty of but which they had been able to get away with for so long.

9:22Philippe Auclair: And that, even if the thing is a cataclysm, a catastrophe, all these things, it is also a day that is a red-letter day, I think, in the history of football in this country. Yeah, for sure. Because, you know, what was striking to me about the Premier League statement, there's a line in it that says, now that the charges have been proved, the issue of sanction will be addressed separately, etc. And we await sanctions, and we await the punishments, and we can maybe discuss those in a few moments. But this is where I think it was really, really strong. Now that the charges have been proved, Citi keep talking about irrefutable evidence.

10:01The Premier League and their lawyers have refuted the absolute fuck out of it, as we've seen. Despite the money that Citi have spent on lawyers, despite the money that they have put into making this case as difficult for the Premier League as possible to prove you know the this is not black and white we are looking at basically the biggest sporting cheat financial anyway that i can think of you know that that

10:31Philippe Auclair: there's nothing like it i mean absolutely nothing i mean there might there have been greater scandals in sport with for example uh the russian the systemic doping that that's a much bigger scandal in many ways. Sexual abuse scandal in U.S. gymnastics, I would say, for example, is much worse than all of this. Sure. But in financial terms, we've never seen anything like it. That clubs have been fiddling their accounts. It's happened ever since I think professionalism was introduced. It probably happened before that, even when it was the little the local church team i'm sure that maybe a couple of pennies and shillings were put in the wrong column when the accounts were made at the end of the season but there you go brown envelopes here and there as we know yeah absolutely football for a while travel expenses um these kind of things or the old gold coin forgotten in the player's boot yes apparently a great special but no it's it's uh it's the biggest i mean um the the figures are and i think i was staggered by that you probably were as well i mean when i read 900 million what almost a billion pounds in the space of eight years and i think you know sometimes we lose track of what money is when we think about football you know transfer fees and and people go, well, you should just pay another 10 million, as if like 10 million is some piece of change you find down the back of the sofa.

12:06You know, we have a weird relationship, I think, with money. But I do think it is worth considering, you know, just how much almost a billion pounds is over the course of an eight-year period. It is an incredible amount of money. That was the bit that really, really, like, I was like, holy shit. I think we all knew that, you know, what had gone on, but the extent to which those books were cooked is the only way of putting it. Almost a billion pounds, 900 million pounds is amazing. And that's assuming without wanting to venture into territory that might get us into trouble. You know, there is a lot of talk or people will be wondering to themselves, I guess.

12:53Did it just stop in 2018? Was 2018 a moment when Manchester City said, well, we can't do this anymore? Or are we simply dealing with a period of time that is constrained by the investigation itself, that it is only able to investigate this period and not beyond?

13:17Philippe Auclair: Well, of course, we've got to be careful here. Yes. First thing. But the second thing I would say is that football leagues stopped at 2018. So therefore, this process has been about things we've known, documents we've seen, which were made public in 2018. So that's that. That's one thing. Second thing is that in the strategy, in the fraudulent strategy devised by the club's executives, the idea was always in the end to be a self-sufficient club and and entity that mean by which i mean the city football group as a whole because we should not forget that what is affecting manchester city will also affect plenty of other clubs on the planet but that's a different for a different matter but what you could see is that it's the the march towards profitability was made possible by cheating.

14:18Philippe Auclair: Just like sporting success was made possible by the acquisition of players like Yaya Toure and David Silva and Kun Aguero and Kevin De Bruyne especially, all players who were acquired during this almost decade of cheating. And they went for it. I mean, the cheating actually increased with the season. When you look at the actual figures, it's just totally insane. And then I think there's a point where you don't need to cheat anymore because you've put yourself in a situation where you are a very, very profitable club. And Manchester City today is a profitable club. But it's only a profitable club because it's had the sporting success, which was only made possible by cheating.

15:06Philippe Auclair: So I haven't answered your question, but I have answered it at the same time. I know what you mean. Yeah, yeah. You get this leg up, you get this sort of artificial, well, artificial, illegal boost to get you to a point where, you know, the Rolling Stone gathers enough moss for you to be able to go on and on and on. And obviously your commercial revenues are, you're more attractive to sponsors when you've won a whole load of shit, right? Yeah, exactly. So I think in this case, that's part of the equation that we have to think about. And as to whether the club has behaved properly since 2018 or not, I think it's a matter for speculation.

15:45Philippe Auclair: We can all have our opinion about that and have our doubts and can also say, well, anyway, who cares? Because who cares now? Because what matters is that there is no statute of limitation on this. And that we is now been proven that they've done this. And I think the other interesting thing as well, and I could see that Dan Needle, who is a great specialist of tax and tax issues, has just put out an article about it and wondering about HMRC. And the consequences might not just be sporting, but might also be criminal. Well, I was going to ask you about that because we can come back to the sporting side of things.

16:28And I really do want to talk a bit about the ownership of Manchester City and what happens next. But it did occur to me reading through this that, okay, in a way they've over declared income, right? But surely in company law, if you submit false accounts, there are penalties that could be applied for doing that, even if it is a case that you've overstated income and maybe paid tax on that income. And maybe they don't want to pursue them because they might have to pay some money back. But that was what struck me about the modus operandi, is that beyond the sporting elements of this and beyond what it gave Manchester City as a football club and the ability to compete at the highest, highest level on a consistency or at a consistent level, was that there surely must be people out there, prosecutors or however this goes down, looking at the way they've operated, looking at the submission of false accounts and thinking, well, is there more to this?

17:28within that period that needs to be looked at above and beyond what City have benefited from, from like a sporting or a footballing perspective. And very interestingly, in the report published by the three judges,

17:49Philippe Auclair: apparently even City's auditors were unaware of the disguised funding scheme. So what happened is that, and it's Section 501 of the Companies Act, knowingly or recklessly giving an auditor a materially misleading, false or deceptive statement can be an offense when it concerns information or explanations the auditor required or was entitled to require an offense, a criminal offense. Yes. So there are people I think who are going to be a little bit nervous now. And a lot of it will depend on the political attitude, which is also yet another dimension of this. Yes. Well, yeah, I did want to ask you about that because I think we've discussed the conceit that the Premier League are in no mood to fuck around with this, right?

18:38And they've been very strong, very strident, no equivocation about how serious they've taken this and then they will apply the sanctions down the line. but do you have any concerns that there might be political interference because it broadens out right because what the ownership of manchester city have done is not just invest in the football club but they've invested in the city in the communities in the infrastructure around manchester and developed a lot of it and that is the very essence of sports washing right that you enmesh yourself within a community, you spend money, and that sort of insulates you from consequences if and when somebody comes knocking at your door because you can turn around and say, well, look what we have done here.

19:30Look at the jobs we've created. Look at the housing we've created. Look at the, we've turned this old field into this beautiful campus for everybody. And that's basically sports washing 101. Are you concerned that that political interference may play a part in here? Or is this too big for any politician, whether it's Andy Burnham, who's the UK prime minister or local MPs, that the fallout from this is sort of too big to be associated with? or the perception that you interfered to mitigate this scale of cheating is too big for any politician to risk?

20:11Philippe Auclair: I think it's one thing to do as Boris Johnson did when the Saudi PIF or PIF was trying to buy Newcastle United and to apply gentle pressure or not so gentle pressure on the people, on people from the Premier League and so forth so that they would rubber stamp the purchase of the club by what was a sovereign nation state. That's one thing. To impede an action which is undertaken after proof has been provided that very, very serious breaches of regulations or even the law have been committed, it's a completely different game. And Burnham is basically, he's not sitting on the fence. He's trying to walk on top of it at the moment.

21:08Philippe Auclair: Because he's a football fan, so he will know the strength of feeling from, I think, all football fans, bar Manchester City, the Manchester City hardcore, what they're feeling. And basically, if you were to put a vote to the football family in England and ask them, what should we do with Manchester City? I think the vote would probably be just nuke them out of existence and that we never hear them. And if they want to recreate a club, that's fine. They can do arrangers. They can do whatever they want to do. But this lot, we're done with, and they wouldn't care. When it comes to Manchester, that's a bit more complicated.

21:53Philippe Auclair: and first of all the relationship between Abu Dhabi and Manchester is much more complicated than that is than is usually presented where people say oh yeah they came in and they regenerated this whole area which was just going to you know let me just ruins basically um I urge everyone to read the report that was done by Sheffield Hallam University into what actually happened between Manchester City Council and Abu Dhabi and the Abu Dhabi United Group. The report was published in 2022. It's very easy to find on the net. There are plenty of links to it. And it paints a rather different picture from the kind of everything is wonderful that we keep hearing about that as almost like an excuse for the misdemeanor of the football club, which the two things shouldn't be related.

22:47Philippe Auclair: But of course they are related. But will it have any impact on the decision of the judges? Absolutely not. Will it have an impact on the harshness of the sanctions? I don't necessarily think so. And actually, I don't think so. Can the British government, who obviously is going to be pressured by the United Arab Emirates, their big ally, could they be inclined to try and do something? That would be a catastrophe. Can you imagine? Can you imagine a government trying to prevent the Premier League, the most capitalistic, perhaps, sports organization ever devised from doing its job properly for once?

23:31I mean, it's just impossible to think.

23:37Philippe Auclair: The box has been open. Pandora's done her job. It's open, and now we have to deal with the consequences of it. And the consequences of it will be, whichever way it goes, absolutely catastrophic. The only thing that could possibly prevent an absolute cataclysm would be if Manchester City, through some unbelievable combination of circumstances, luck, you name it, managed to reverse the verdict on appeal. I mentioned that purely for hypothetical reasons, because I don't think that there's one chance in hell that this will be the case and that the appeal, which they have to file by tomorrow, Friday, 2nd of October, I don't think there's any chance that this appeal will succeed.

24:32Philippe Auclair: you never know you never know but even in that case manchester city is dead it's like the the emperor is naked we we can and forever wherever these people will go they will be welcome so to speak with resounding chance of cheats cheats cheats cheats starting with a game at anfield that I'm really looking forward to, I have to say. Yeah, well, listen, let's steer it then towards the ownership and the strategy and the plan that was obviously put in place for Manchester City to operate in this way, to close the gap, to then widen the gap at the top, to falsify this commercial income in order for them to build a team and build teams which have achieved enormous success.

25:32But the foundation of that success is the cheating and the financial impropriety or illegality, whatever way you want to put it. Where can these owners go now in terms of the ownership of the club? Can they maintain ownership of the club? Can this club continue to operate in the Premier League with these people as the owners? Because as we've seen, they have systematically and deliberately cheated, broken the rules, knowingly broken the rules. I think it's fair to say as well and to reference previous legal issues that they had with UEFA, which we've discussed before. And the issue with UEFA was there was a statute of limitations on some of the things that Manchester City were guilty of, but couldn't be punished for because it was outside this statute of limitations.

26:34And as you said, no such statute of limitations exists in the Premier League, which is why we are where we are right now.

26:40Philippe Auclair: And no recourse to CAS, because let's not forget that Manchester City, who first had been very early on, had already been fined for violations of the financial fair play regulations by UEFA. Then they were suspended, you remember, for two seasons. And it's only after they went to CAS, Court of Arbitration for Sport, that the technicalities were used to throw the UEFA case out. It was the Court of Arbitration for Sport. And Cass is not available for a dispute with the Premier League. Yes, and also a key point, Gianni Infantino is not part of the Premier League, whereas he was part of UEFA back at that point.

27:24And all roads lead back to our good friend Gianni Infantino, which will surprise nobody. But like, surely, Philly, whatever punishment is handed out, no version of Manchester City, whether they get relegated and make their way back in two or three or four years time or whatever it might be, surely no version of Manchester City can exist in the Premier League with these owners.

27:51Philippe Auclair: I would agree with you. I also think that the owners do not satisfy the fit and proper persons, even the very lackadaisical way in which the Premier League applies those rules, but they don't, these guys don't. it's a good thing that Khaldun El Mubarak has basically got a ministerial is of ministerial rank or ambassadorial rank so is basically immune from any kind of prosecution in Britain because of that but they are not fit and not proper that's quite clear the stigma will be attached to the club as long as these people are in charge that is clear which is why I'm wondering and I'm thinking aloud here that perhaps for both football and for Manchester City the best thing which could possibly happen is that the club ceased to exist and was reborn again it's happened in the past to other clubs and they've come back and actually they're probably much healthier now than they were under previous in their previous incarnation um and in the case of manchester city well you've got a stadium you've got a fan base uh you've got a history unfortunately for you a large part of this history now is tainted to the extent that you would wish to uh to forget about it um but as long as those guys are in charge well we'll always look at manchester city so yeah these are the cheats oh the cheats are in town this week let's hope we beat the cheats yeah and think of the players as well i mean oh you've just signed for a cheat great well done you didn't seem to stop any of them in the recent past when because they were fair yeah they could you know people can actually be you know when you want to believe something it's it's a first step towards believing and what the players saw is that wow i'd love to play alongside kevin de bruyne wow i'd love to be coached by um by pep guardiola wow i'd love to play in europe and win titles big titles and so forth and the players who came through the academy um you know and there are quite a few now who have gone through manchester city's academy which again was funded by cheating but these players are there on merit and and and you know they they believe their employers i would imagine those who actually had questions to ask about it they were told one thing very and they're still being told when you you've seen that totally surreal ai uh message recorded by um faron soriano in which he addresses the the manchester city faithful but the employees as well the staff and everybody he's still denying everything well how do you yeah i was gonna ask incredible how how do we how are we supposed to square that particular circle where for an sorry i know is whether he's blinking or not blinking or whatever the fuck is going on there um you know the statements from uh the city owners that they're innocent this is all based on one big misunderstanding.

31:23They have the irrefutable evidence. Soriano is saying, no, no, no, no, no. We're going to be found innocent of all this. You don't have to worry about it. At the same time, though, the Premier League, not just within the statement, but within the findings, the document that you recommended people read, you know, it's all there. It's in black and white. The evidence is there. The city email addresses, the communications between, you know, city's legal team and the finance people. And, you know, it's there. It's not like this is not like circumstantial evidence where somebody's gone, oh, well, if we put this bit here and that bit there, then maybe it adds up.

31:57It's literally there in black and white in documents. How are we supposed to react as football fans? You know, as people who have watched the Premier League and experienced the Premier League and suffered in the Premier League at the hands of Manchester City because they've been so good. Right. Whether you're in a title race with them or not, you know, if you're a fan of Crystal Palace or Southampton or Aston Villa or whatever it might be, you've been affected by what Manchester City have done. And yet they stand there brazenly and tell us, we did not do anything. This is not true. You can believe us.

32:34Trust us. You know, it's like the snake talking to Adam. I don't really understand how, even with this mountain of evidence, they feel emboldened enough to stand there and lie to everybody.

32:50Philippe Auclair: I mean, he even had the goal to talk about an opinion. It's not an opinion. It's a verdict. I mean, man, it's not an opinion. It's like somebody who's just been found guilty of GBH and say, yeah, I'm innocent. No, man, you've just been found guilty. You can appeal. You can appeal, but you've been found guilty. and this is exactly the situation they're in. And I think the media have got a huge role to play in that, which is to stop being the means by which Manchester City can carry on spouting propaganda, which is not questioned. I am appalled that some media have chosen to put out Soriano's non-blinking vid out there without any comment.

33:32Philippe Auclair: It's absolutely shocking. It's a dereliction of duty. You have to contextualize everything if you are presenting things. It's the same way that I read, and I actually had a bit of an argument with a friend of mine about it. There was a piece saying, Etihad are thinking about starting a legal action against the Premier League. And I'm thinking, that's not news. That's not news. You've been told by somebody, Etihad, that they were thinking. I don't give a shit if they're thinking about something. There are loads of things I think about which are of no import whatsoever. If they had launched a legal lawsuit, yeah, that's news.

34:16Philippe Auclair: You have to talk about that. No, they're just thinking. And it's part of their strategy to try and entertain, to have doubt forced in, crowbarred in where there is absolutely none. So there are all these statements which are for internal but also external use. And so the first responsibility of the media is every time you say Manchester City Football Club, you add comma, who were found guilty of 114 violations, serious violations of the Premier League rules and regulations, comma, and then you carry on. You have to constantly remind people these people are guilty. if the verdict is overturned on appeal okay we'll see them but for the time being and probably for all time they are guilty and uh so they they they will use i think to be honest they don't have a leg to stand on and i think that they too will have been surprised by the tone of both the report and the premier league statement the premier league wouldn't have gone wouldn't have gone you know two-footed in like that if they didn't know that they had a super super super strong case sure and that the appeal that is being talked about is purely there to try and uh you know um try to obfuscate basically and delay evermore and so forth but you know it's it's not going to happen statutorily speaking the the appeal should be um dealt with within uh 12 weeks isn't it?

35:50Philippe Auclair: Yes. So, and, um, or 14 weeks and, um, I can't remember, sorry. I think it's 12th. So we're talking February basically, and there's going to be huge pressure and there is already a huge pressure from other Premier League clubs, uh, to have the situation resolved as quickly as possible because the idea that the 27, 28 season could start with this still unresolved is just too appalling for words. So there's got to be a verdict, first of all, pretty soon and then uh of course a an appeal process and dealt with as it should be fortunately once the appeal is heard there's no secondary appeal there's no high court to go to there's no cast to go to that will be final and uh and with a bit of luck um manchester city will have such a huge points deduction that it will be thrown down to the bananarama league or whatever it's cool these days and um or we'd never hear hear from them and that guy's again well yeah i'm glad you mentioned the media because i i do think while there's a vagueness around a situation like this i think we can all understand why perhaps certain correspondents might be slightly kinder to manchester city if that's the right way of putting it i think we can you know we can put two and two together in our own minds i just kind of got we get my head around it, you know, that anybody after this would go to bat for Manchester City.

37:17But that has been the case, unfortunately. And that tells you, you know, maybe what you need to know about the people who have done that. But when it comes to the punishment, when it comes to, you know, points deduction or relegation or whatever it might be, like, how harsh does it need to be? How harsh is it required to be to reflect the seriousness of what they've done and also act as a deterrent for any other club to do this in the future. You know, I don't know what the scope of what the Premier League can do exactly. You know, can they expel them? I think they can. Can they relegate them or do so by virtue of a points deduction?

38:00What would your preference be for the kind of punishment that you want to see the Premier League hand out?

38:07Philippe Auclair: That's a really tough one because the scale of the misdemeanors is something that we have never seen before. We've seen other clubs being punished for financial wrongdoings. if you were to apply the rule of the Premier League law on Manchester City as strongly as you applied it on Everton and Nottingham Forest whose misdemeanors were not even peanuts compared to what we are talking about now basically the club would be deducted about a thousand points and would never ever be able to play professional football again and the fine would be so colossal that the city football group might actually have to go bankrupt.

39:03Philippe Auclair: You carry on. I mean, so it's almost impossible to think of this happening. When you think about the way that, for example, Southend FC have been punished for this quite ludicrous so-called espionage incident, and you're thinking, okay, if that's what you're getting for something which is actually quite funny and of no use whatsoever, what is it when you've actually cheated for the best part of a decade to the tune of 900 million of illegal funds. Man, that's a lot. So obviously, huge fine, that's obvious. Points deduction, that's obvious as well. And the points deduction, I would have to honestly to ask actually if it can be spread over several seasons.

39:52Philippe Auclair: because if you can deduct, I mean, some clubs which go bankrupt, you know, have 10 or 20 points deducted from their total and they fall because it happened to Bournemouth, for example. It happened to many clubs to be punished so harshly that they had to drop a division. Right. So that's the very minimum, I think, is a points deduction which makes them go down at least one level. But I think it should be far more than that. The problem is that this can only, demoting a club is not easy, as easy as it sounds. If it's like, I hear people say, well, you can relegate them automatically. I said, no, you can't do that because this has an impact on the whole pyramid.

40:39Philippe Auclair: What happens to the clubs, which normally would have been relegated this season. So what you do, you relegate one extra club. and so that the whole thing has got to go down the pyramid and with other clubs suffering because of it? No, you shouldn't do that. No. So what you do is that, let's say, they're going to get about 90 points this season. So you give them a 90-point deduction, which means they finish the season with nil points or a negative total, and they are one of the three normally relegated clubs. That's one way of doing it. And I think if that's the case, then the league would have to accept them.

41:18Philippe Auclair: If they're excluded from the Premier League, which is a completely reasonable scenario and which I think would be the only punishment that would fit the crime, then it becomes much more complicated because would the Football League want, accept Manchester City in their ranks and at the expense of whom exactly? Well, yeah. So at least one club has to make way for them to be part of that, the football league. Exactly. So for me, they should be excluded to non-professional, like sixth, seventh or eighth division. And then they can work their way back if they want to. And they're a huge club, so it can be done.

42:03Philippe Auclair: You know, I mean, I look at France, look at what happened to Giraudet and Bordeaux. And, you know, the crimes of Giraudet and Bordeaux was simply to not make enough money. well, here they are, they've been demoted to the sixth division. And it's terrible for Giraudin, but if they get the right owners, unfortunately, I don't think they will. They could see that as a way to, let's bounce back, okay? Let's bounce back. Our supporters, the real supporters will be with us. They will all pull together and so forth, and it could be a fantastic story for our club. But chances of that happening, I don't know.

42:40Philippe Auclair: So personally, I personally think that would be a solution because I'm also, and I think a solution which in the long run would also benefit Manchester City, the true Manchester City, the club that was founded in the 19th century, the club of Franny Lee and all those wonderful players and Georgie Kinkladze, a club that honestly, Andrew, I think we all had a soft spot for that club. Simply because they were not Manchester United at that time. The enemy of my enemy. Yeah, exactly. No, it's true though. It is, you know, it is true. I mean, what about the titles? Should they be stripped of those titles that they won within that time period?

43:17Do you see that as justifiable? And if so, what might the consequences of that be? I mean, there's already talk of clubs preparing legal action, other clubs preparing legal action against Manchester City for, I'm guessing, prizes they might not have won, prize money they might not have been able to earn, those kinds of things. If they strip them of the titles, does that give more legitimacy to those legal complaints, those legal issues that other clubs might be willing to take? It is, as you said earlier, you know, Pandora's box is open. We are only really beginning to see all the crap emerge from this box.

43:58And it feels like it's like a clown car, isn't it? There's just a nonstop parade of clowns and dirt coming out of this box. And we're only seeing the first, we've only seen the first couple of clowns. There's like a billion clowns still to come. So, you know, is this something the Premier League, is this something the Premier League has to think about when they apply the judgments that they do, knowing that, you know, it's a can of worms and it could go, it could just sort of ripple on forever and ever nearly.

44:33Philippe Auclair: Well, the legal action, I think, is almost independent of whatever the Premier League, unless, of course, the verdict was overturned on appeal, which, again, we have to add that all the time. We have to be fair, even if we think that it's not going to happen. But already the grounds, the legal grounds are already there. and in a certain way it doesn't matter if the Premier League strips Manchester City from these titles because they shouldn't have won the title we all agree on that they cheated their way through the title so it's possible the legal case is not based on the fact they've been stripped no, the fact is that they illegally financed their title and therefore they should be held responsible in a court of civil law which is not the case.

45:25Philippe Auclair: This is not what is happening at the moment. What we're dealing now is an internal process within a company, which is called the FA Premier League Limited. That's what is happening. It's not a civil action. It's not in a tribunal. It's nothing like that. So in a way, that will have an impact. It obviously will be at the back of the people at the Premier League, particularly when they decide on the sanctions, obviously. But on the other hand, all of this is immaterial. The process, say we keep going back to Pandora's box. I mean, those clowns, those clown cars aren't going back to the garage anytime soon, basically.

46:09Philippe Auclair: They're going to go around the block and honk and honk and honk until we are sick of hearing the honking. And that's going to happen. as to stripping them of the title test i think absolutely they should be stripped of all the titles they won the three premier league the fa cup the three league cups that they won during that period absolutely and i also think that what should be done is what has been done for the tour de france for lance armstrong's at the nester is can no winner because first of all uh giving the title to somebody else what's it going to change i mean you know what if we were given the titles i mean obviously the period doesn't apply in the case of arsenal but if if arsenal had finished second say in that period of time um and and we would have won the title if it hadn't been for the cheating would i want that title added to my list no no i mean i yeah we didn't win it i mean we didn't win it you know they won it they've been stripped for the right reasons so just leave it blank.

47:08Philippe Auclair: When Marseille were stripped of their title in the 1992-93 French Championship title, after being found guilty of bribing players, PSG should have become champion automatically. PSG refused. The biggest opponent that Olympique de Marseille had at the time and still has in French football refused the title, and they were absolutely right to do so. And so I can see why they would want, on one hand, to get financial compensation from the City Football Group for lack of earnings or loss of earnings. Excuse me. That's totally logical. But when it comes to the title themselves, just put an asterisk.

47:56Philippe Auclair: Just put an asterisk and a footnote. because this also means that in the future in four decades time when people look if there's still a planet when they look at the list of english champions instead of saying of seeing oh it was liverpool that year um no it was manchester city oh but look there's an asterisk here why is there an asterisk and the asterisk will say the title was won by manchester city ahead of liverpool manchester city were found guilty and therefore of of malfeasance and and and were stripped and were stripped of the title as a consequence of that so you feel that should be a historical marker yeah yeah okay it should be like a branding like they're branded that's it mate yeah you know i i get it i i and i i can't see why what kind of pleasure would a fan derive of of being given the title 10 years later 12 years later no i get it no point no no i mean i think we all think then yes absolutely yeah i think we also have to reckon with how we feel about what we've seen and how we've experienced football and experienced the the premier league over the course of this.

49:19So, you know, I think if you then have to wrestle with the idea, well, are we champions? Were we champions? You know, it adds a sort of level of existential confusion to everything. It's already difficult enough to process because of, you know, the, the wide ranging impact of the way city have behaved and, and what we have experienced as football fans, Arsenal fans and beyond. So with that in mind, can we talk a little bit about Pep Guardiola and talk a bit about what he has said? Yeah, we can talk about that.

49:54Philippe Auclair: But that's one thing I would add to this is that I totally understand the fact, like, for example, in Olympic disciplines, when an athlete who got a gold silver or bronze medal was afterwards found guilty of using doping products and was stripped of this medal, I find it completely logical, normal, ethical, that whoever had been robbed of a medal should receive it. it's totally different in individual sports totally different yeah and and uh i can see that the the panther sleet who received a bronze medal because the belarus athlete or whatever who had had cheated to get to get hers i think that is great and i think a lot should be made of it i think there should be special ceremonies actually there are special ceremonies when the medals are properly given with apologies saying we're really sorry we didn't give you this medal back in 2000, whenever it was.

50:50Philippe Auclair: But here it is. You are an Olympic medalist. That's totally right. It's not the same for football. But anyway, so to Guardiola. Okay, so when this whole thing dropped about the charges, he's on record of saying, of a conversation that he had with the ownership of Manchester City. I said to them, if you lie to me the day after, I am not here. I will be out and I will not be your friend anymore. I put my faith in you because I believe you 100 % from day one, and I defend the club because of that. We've learned what we have learned. The evidence is what it is. The charges have been proven. Pep Guardiola's statement via his Twitter account said, I want every single Man City fan to know I am here more than ever.

51:39I am and I always have been, always will be behind my club, my owner, my chairman, Ferran Soriano, the players, staff, Enzo, Enzo Maresca, and you are unique supporters. Let me be clear. We will get through this together. I love you all.

51:57Philippe Auclair: That sound was me trying to get a bucket in which I could throw up. Listen, I think there might be many people reaching for the sick bucket there, but it is completely at odds with what he said. You know, if they lie to me, he said back in 2023 or whenever it was, well, maybe they didn't lie to him. maybe they told him what was going on and maybe he was all right with that. I don't know. We're just speculating here, of course. But it's remarkable to me. On the one hand, listen, I get it. He's been a brilliant manager. He's achieved a lot. He's won a lot of things. And I think we can all recognize the human condition where you try and protect your reputation and protect your legacy.

52:38this though you know if there was already an asterisk around Pep Guardiola it's even bigger now because I don't know how you can come out with that kind of statement on the basis of everything that we have learned this week on the evidence that we have seen that has been presented by the Premier League it is um maybe timely that you know he's been able to sort of wander off into retirement from his villa he can send out this tweet via his communications team and sort of sit there and not face the spotlight but it is a remarkable statement considering everything that

53:15Philippe Auclair: has happened over the last seven days yeah it's both shameless and shameful um i'm not surprised at all. I think we all know what place Pep Guardiola has, what is his rank amongst the managers of his generation and he's certainly at the absolute top of his profession or certainly among the contenders. When it comes to the person, Pep Guardiola, I lost all regard I could possibly have for him a long time ago.

53:58When, I mean, you see,

54:00Philippe Auclair: hypocrisy is just... I've got to be careful what I say here, because even though we're a podcast and we're on a podcast, and certainly we can be a little bit freer than if we were taking our best quill and right on the subject. But he's, I mean, he has his problems as well in Brescia. Sure. You can find out for themselves. And he's totally brazen in the way he, I mean, he's extraordinary. He is a study in cognitive dissonance. The man who is there advocating the release of political prisoners in Catalonia. And who totally ignores the fact that his employer is a dictatorship, which is at the moment arming people in Sudan.

54:59It's just, that's the kind of man he is.

55:02Philippe Auclair: I have absolutely zero respect for the man. And I haven't had for a very long time. So I am not surprised. He's deeply compromised. He is venal.

55:18Philippe Auclair: and he's obviously got a, he's got tunnel vision, which in his job can be a great, great asset. And he doesn't want to tarnish his own legacy, but I'm sorry, Pep, your legacy is tarnished. There's nothing you can do about it, my friend. There's nothing you can do. Yeah. This kind of circling the wagons thing, you know, maybe it's an instinctive reaction. I don't know. that like looking around and looking at the reaction from the wider football community and the people involved in the game do you throw yourselves on their mercy or do you circle the wagons and just continue to to seek the love from the people who you know are going to give you that unconditionally even when you're wrong sorry i think in a way the only manchester city related person I can think of who is actually hurting a lot and has been quite, I would say engaging, but at least I thought, yeah, I can see where you're talking from, is Micah Richards, when he said he was devastated by the findings of the report.

56:29Philippe Auclair: At least he had the good grace and he's, he is Man City. I mean, it's his club, but he's actually come on the record and said he was devastated by the report he didn't say the report is a tissue of lies whatever yeah and and guardiola could have done something exactly on the same line thinking that it was a huge shock for him to to read this report a huge disappointment that he was proud of all the things that he had achieved at the club he could do all this that he was thinking he was thinking of the all the players and the fans, and even if they wanted to, the officials, who must be going through a really difficult time.

57:13Philippe Auclair: If he had said all that, we would have said, okay, all right, fair enough. See you later. Goodbye. No, what he had to do was to use the same kind of tactic that they'd been using all through that. Everybody's lying. By the way, dear Manchester City people, fans, why on earth is it that everybody hates you so much when you were one of the favorite, as I said, I've already said, a club that people had a lot of affinity with and sympathy for in the past. Why is it suddenly everybody, but I mean everybody, the other fans, the journalists, the government, probably the government as well, the Premier League, the UEFA, why everybody hates you so much?

57:52Philippe Auclair: Is it all one great conspiracy? Well, why is there a conspiracy against you and not against Manchester United, the Glazers, for Christ's sake, or even against Paris Saint-Germain or against Newcastle United, if you want to look at state-owned clubs. Why is it that it's only you? And why is it that you've been able to win all these titles if everybody really wants you to fail? I mean, the dissonance is astonishing. I know one guy, I'm sorry to go on a bit about that, from a manchester city fan who um i mean he's a trumpian basically and not politically speaking because he's actually uh he votes he votes labor right right okay and this guy is cultured uh he's a historian by profession uh really he knows his club inside out and he's the most charming of company up until we talk about Manchester City and what they are doing, what they've been doing since, in fact, Taxi and Shinya Watra arrived.

59:02Then something clicks, switches in his brain, and you're faced with this person whom you

59:08Philippe Auclair: know would actually probably clock you if he got a chance to do so, because he suddenly hates you completely totally and you can present him with proof all the proof all the evidence you have from the most irrefutable sources and he will still deny what is in front of his own eyes is is that it's just insane but it's it's it's a modern disease it's it's it's called fanaticism And that's what it is. It's the modern version of fanaticism. But there is a natural instinct among football fans to think the best of their club or to protect their club or to reject outside criticism of their club. And I think we all can we can all understand that because, you know, Arsenal fans, we're very online.

1:00:01We get quite a lot of criticism. Some of it is unfair. Some of it is not unfair. Some of it we've had to reckon with ourselves. And I think generally speaking, it's not true of everybody because you can't speak for the monolith, right? But I do think generally speaking, over the course of the last 15, 20 years as Arsenal fans, we've had various things leveled at us as a club. And some of them, I think, have been wide of the mark. Some of them go too far. Some of them are, you know, just mischievous or nonsense. But some of them, you have to acknowledge that the club has been in the wrong, that the club has not acted in the right way, that the club has done things.

1:00:40Philippe Auclair: The Thomas Partey affair is really, really sick, still stuck in my throat. You can do Super League and you can do all of that. But I think you have to be able as a football fan to recognize it. I love my football club. We all love our football club. City fans love their football clubs. but if they should be angry it shouldn't be at the outside world for exposing what has gone on inside their club it should be with the ownership who have behaved in a way and i know that that it's sort of counterintuitive as a football fan to sort of turn the guns inwards right i get it but with the mountain of evidence you know you you have to be able to say actually you know what They pulled the wall over my eyes.

1:01:25Nobody likes to feel stupid. Nobody likes to feel like they've been conned. But in order to sort of move on, and I think you just have to have the emotional intelligence and maybe the bravery to change your position and not just sort of say, no, they're out to get us. There's a cartel, all that bullshit that we've all seen over the last little while and recognize that, okay, I've been fucking hoodwinked as well. I, as a Manchester City fan, have been cheated by what's gone on and the way that this ownership has behaved.

1:01:56Philippe Auclair: And because of this ownership, all the titles we've won have been tainted. Our joy is not the same. And they might actually kill our club, these people who have lied to us. And in fairness to some Man City fans, I mean, obviously I'm not on Twitter any longer. Thank goodness for that. but on Blue Sky quite a few Man City fans have actually reached out to me and posted comments which were completely reasonable about how they felt about it and that they were really hurting and they really have my sympathy, they've been lied to and if you are as you say a football fan, we are all willing to believe the people that we support obviously and they support Manchester City and they were a club that was winning nothing, yo-yoing between the divisions.

1:02:51Philippe Auclair: Suddenly they've got money, they win those titles, they've played beautiful football. They're in Europe, blah, blah, blah. Wow, it's fabulous. And then other people say, well, you're cheats. No, we're not. We're Manchester City. And then suddenly they realise, wow, we were cheats all along. So none of this actually was earned on the field of play. It's horrible. it must be pretty horrible for people who are not fanatical to that extent. Sure. But I have a deep love of that club, older fans. Actually, not that much older because they only arrived, you know, they didn't arrive that long ago, to be honest.

1:03:32Philippe Auclair: So there will be plenty of people who feel like that, and you've got to feel sorry for them. But the sympathy actually is in short supply because that's one thing, and I was actually ranting to my friends on the Garden Football Weekly about that. There's one thing we should never forget is that one of the ways that the city have confronted the accusations thrown at them for all this time by the few journalists who had the courage to do that and who also had the freedom given to them by the editors, which is not the same thing. Plenty of other journalists would have done it if they could have, were threatened.

1:04:14Philippe Auclair: received appalling messages one of them his home was attacked by city thugs my colleagues i stopped going there but my colleagues who had to cover the game and who had written stuff that the fans didn't like had to leave the ground uh in in groups for the safety we shouldn't forget that i shouldn't forget that no that that has never i've never been in that situation having to team up with six or seven of my colleagues to leave a ground because otherwise i might not be safe somebody might actually try to hurt me it's never happened to me i've been to some pretty awful grounds and um but it's never happened ever ever and we we shouldn't forget how they weaponized their fan base that they whipped up this frenzy amongst amongst the fans to attack the media the journalists everybody anybody who was saying come on guys what you're doing is not right you're not right but you know how can you have a different attitude when the very first thing that you say is a lie is like sheikh mansour is not the united arab emirates everything they say is based on that yeah i know it's a private individual it's not the uae guys yeah excuse me well i mean the absurdity of eddie had saying we're going to sue it's sort of like oh well you better make sure you use the right-headed paper it's all circular isn't it you know it is it's crazy the clowns keep coming out of the car philippe um oh yes we we better leave it there but i did just want to ask you very slightly man city adjacent um the interlull is ongoing and we've had an incident with a former Manchester City player, Bernardo Silva, with a really nasty, vicious foul on Martin Odegaard, off the ball foul, which has left the Arsenal captain very angry.

1:06:10I don't think I've ever seen Martin Odegaard that angry on a football pitch before, and he is a guy who gets kicked a lot. This is, I don't know if it's connected to what's gone on this week. Maybe he's frustrated that all of the titles that he won are tainted and have come with an asterisk. But that kind of behaviour on the pitch, I know it's an Arsenal player, but I would say this if it's any player, that kind of snide, nasty foul has no place in the game. And Portugal and Norway face off again this weekend, whether Odegaard is there or not. There's some doubts he wasn't in training this week.

1:06:43Maybe he sits out the game that they have. I don't know if they played last night or maybe they're playing tonight before they play on Sunday against Portugal, I think. But that was an unfortunate aspect of what we've seen so far in the international break from an Arsenal perspective.

1:07:00Philippe Auclair: Yeah, we were all touching wood because of the odds in such wonderful form. And you're thinking, well, not again, please. Sir Bernard Osilva, when you meet him, and I've met him on quite a few occasions, he's a really lovely chap, speaks fluently a number of languages, very smiling. but something happens to him when he puts on, I don't know, be it the Portugal shirt or the Manchester City shirt or whichever, or the Real Madrid shirt, it doesn't matter. It becomes one of the nastiest, nastiest players that I've ever seen on a football pitch. And because he looks like, you know, a kid who's trying to grow a beard for the first time and he's there with his little eyes looking at you, oh, I'm so little, I'm so tiny.

1:07:49Philippe Auclair: I look at them. They're so much bigger than I am. And he's one of the Snyder's little shits that the, that the game, modern game has known. And he's managed to get away, to go away, to get away, excuse me, with it for so long. He's got the invisibility cloak, you know, this, this thing that some players like Fernandinho. Teflon. Teflon, yeah. Casemiro, you know, this type of players, they get away with so much. you say we wonder but is that what is it that they do that the referees can't say we can see and and Bernardo Silva I think if he were treated had been treated on Premier League grounds by referees as they treat other other players he probably had well over a couple of dozen red cards I would imagine he's that kind of player he's nasty he's really nasty and snide and what it to Odegaard is, I mean, the most obvious, it's actually, it's sheer violence.

1:08:50Philippe Auclair: It's, and from behind, of course. Of course. Of course. And the fact that actually Odegaard could miss that game, I think it's against Wales, isn't it? Yeah, they're playing Wales tonight. Yeah. Yeah, that could miss that game because it shows that there was quite a big impact. And let's hope that this doesn't carry out beyond the international lull that was not a lull. This we can say about it. And let's hope as well everybody else comes back, you know, refreshed. Yeah. Fighting fit, I think, is the phrase. Fighting fit, yes, absolutely. Some of them are, fortunately, in national teams where the managers have thought that four games in such a short period of time was too much for them and are rotating.

1:09:42Philippe Auclair: So hopefully that will be the case for four hours as well. Okay. But anyway, Bernardo Silva, Manchester City, what lovely topics to talk about with you. I agree. We've been waiting to have this particular conversation for quite a while. So I'm glad we've been able to do it. And I thank you as always for your time. We'll chat soon. For now, Philippe, thanks a million. My pleasure.

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1:12:04Thank you very much indeed to Philippe. You can find him on Blue Sky. He is at PhilippeEauClaire.bsky.social at PhilippeEauClaire.bsky.social and that was a conversation that was, I think, a long time coming. I hope you enjoyed it. And as I said, while we're sort of at the end of a long process to get to the verdict, I think we're only at the start of what's going to happen next and how it's going to impact Manchester City and football more broadly. So all we can do is just wait and see how it all plays out when the Premier League deliver the verdict on the sanctions that they can impose on Manchester City, which will probably be in, you know, somewhere around 12 weeks time.

1:12:47For now, though, we move on very quickly, a couple of bits and bobs before we end the show. Last week, we ran a competition for you to win a copy of The Greatest Rivalry. We spoke to the author of the book, Dominic Hoffman, last week. I asked you to tell me which two Arsenal players were on the front cover of the book, and they were Martin Keown and Patrick Vieira. Lots of you entered, and the random number generator has chosen Mark Nellis and Laurie Laker. Well done to you guys. I'll be in touch. I'll get your email addresses and your details, and we'll have the books sent out to you. The book, if you want to get it, you can get it from your local independent bookstore.

1:13:30Order it from them. The Greatest Rivalry, Arsenal, Manchester United, and the Battle That Defined an Era by Dominic Hoffman. It's published by Pitch Publishing. You can get it at your local independent bookstore. If they don't have it in stock, just ask them and they will order it in for you. You can take a trip into town or into the local village, whatever it might be. Stop, have a coffee, have a cake, and pick up your nice new book. The other thing I just wanted to mention was another reminder about the Arseblog apps that have been updated for iOS and for Android. Lots of new updates this week, so please make sure that you're using the latest version.

1:14:06Lots of new stats on the Match Day tab. We'll see the best of those when the men's games begin again because there's a lot more data. But you can get individual player stats, heat maps, that kind of stuff, which you can then share directly to your social media if you want. So loads and loads of new features, including the gold icon. The one thing I did want to ask of you was if you like the app and you have the time or the inclination to give us a review and a rating on the Google Play Store and the App Store for iOS, that will be greatly appreciated. A lot of work has gone into the apps. And if you give us a review and a rating, it increases the, I'm told anyway, increases the visibility of the apps on the App Store.

1:14:49we'll find more Arsenal fans to download it. It is, of course, completely free and will remain completely free like almost everything that we do on Arseblog, apart from the bits and bobs that we have on Patreon. If you need something else to listen to, James and I have an episode of Waffle over on Patreon, which is a podcast in which we talk about anything and everything except Arsenal and football based on suggestions from our Patreon members. And when the football begins again, we have all the usual stuff, our preview pods and the 30 and everything else and your support on Patreon is what allows us to do things like update the apps and keep the websites free, advertising free, by the way.

1:15:27There's no ads in the app, no ads on the website. It's all just clean and nice for you as an arsehole fan to read and listen to. So patreon.com forward slash arseblog if you fancy it,$6 a month plus sales tax wherever you might be in the world if that is applicable. For now though, folks, I'm going to leave it there as ever. Thank you so much indeed for being here, for downloading, for listening, for subscribing, or for being part of the Arseblog community. We love you. Have a great weekend, and we will catch you on the next one. Until then, cheers. Bye-bye.

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