Episode 898 - Forward questions

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0:55Hello and welcome to a brand new Arseblog Arsecast right here on arseblog.com. How are you? Hope you're well. Thank you very much indeed, as always, for being here. It's been a tricky week for Arsenal. Defeat in the Carabao Cup going out on penalties to Fleetwood Town, a team currently 18th or something like that in League Two, and Arsenal are rightfully top of the Premier League table if you remove the gigantic cheaters, who obviously haven't been removed yet. But we expect that to happen in due course because of the sheer scale and size of the cheating that they perpetrated upon the Premier League, who will then hopefully apply the appropriate punishment.

1:40For now, though, they're there, but we don't really pay too much attention. So Arsenal, top of the table, League 2 Fleetwood Town, a bit of a changed team. Some young players came in and really Arsenal should have done more with this game based on some of the opportunities that we had. But the forward line, it's fair to say, was not firing. at maximum. It was like, sort of like a damp firework, a tiny bit of sizzle, a little rather than any kind of explosion. And that is a worry, I think, particularly when you're playing a team so far down the league. Many would view this as an opportunity to rack up the goals without taking anything for granted.

2:18You would expect Arsenal as Premier League champions and being a very, very good team to be able to score more than one goal against Fleetwood Town, but we didn't. And that's going to be a big part of the conversation that we have now with our guest in just a moment. I do want to tell you, stick around a bit later on. I will give you details of the book launch that is happening next Friday in London for our book, The 22. Myself and James Clifford Kent, a photographer friend, we put together this limited edition book, which celebrates our title win back in May. Words from me, pictures from him.

2:53It all comes in this really nice package. I'll give you more details of that later on, but there are only, only 2 ,026 of these being made. So they're very, very limited edition. So if you're around next Friday, stay tuned for details of how you can come along to the event and how you can get your book. But I think we'll just get on with the show because beyond not scoring goals, there's a lot more to talk about. Obviously, a big red card incident happened in this game, and that's a huge talking point too. So with me to do that today from the Chronicles of Agooner podcast, it's Harry Simiou. Good morning, Harry.

3:25Good morning, mate. How are you? I'm all right. Thank you very much. We are going to talk about, I guess, a very disappointing night from an Arsenal. Well, maybe not very disappointing. I think there's a weird thing about this game where any objective analysis of it from an Arsenal perspective is that it was crap. And that's sort of being diplomatic about the whole thing. It was not a good night, but it's not one, I think, that is vexing people too much in the grand scheme of things because of, well, how the perception of the Carabao Cup, the EFL Cup, it feels like it's a tournament that has, I don't know, cost us almost.

4:07Like our record in it is so weird. You know, we've been to finals, we've lost in finals. They always feel damaging. Last season, there was a lot of energy expended in the EFL Cup. So on the one hand, it's never good to lose a game. It's never good to play badly. And it raises a lot of questions, which we're going to delve into now. But on the other hand, it's one of those that I think, and I don't know if you agree or not, is easier to compartmentalize than, let's say, defeat in the Premier League. Yeah, for sure. Because I think you're right to say that the League Cup is not necessarily the priority.

4:40It's not the one that we all go into the season kind of dreaming of winning. And then you factor in, you know, the fact that as you say last year, it kind of cost us a little bit in that we had that two-legged semifinal against Chelsea, which was a real slog. And it took a lot out of us at a really important part of the season. And then you go to the final and you take on Manchester City. And I don't know about you, but I was more upset with the implications that that final could have potentially had on the title race than I was at the fact that we lost the League Cup. And I know that sounds bizarre because when you get to a cup final, obviously you want to win it.

5:15I always say with the Carabao Cup, once we get to the semifinals, that's where my interest in it starts to really rise. But I do think that, you know, you can't win everything. You can't fight on every single front. And as much as we want to pretend that, you know, we've got the depth to do that, really and truly in certain areas, we don't. Maybe we've got the depth in terms of numbers and in terms of bodies when everybody's fit and available. But I don't know that we've got enough quality to be able to constantly rotate, for example, at the top end of the pitch and still get the results and the outcomes that we're looking for.

5:48So it's embarrassing when you get knocked out by lower league opposition, especially a team that are languishing down at the bottom of League Two. and I've covered Fleetwood a few times on commentary over the last two seasons, and they're not very good. So, you know, I did not see this coming. I thought it could be tricky, it could be difficult because of the context of it all, but never in my wildest dreams did I think they'd knock us out. So there is a bit of embarrassment there. That does bring anger in the initial kind of aftermath of the game, but I have been able over the last, I would say, night or so to just put a lot of that behind me.

6:23Fair enough. I mean, listen, I think you can use words. Mikel Arteta used the word sad. You used the word embarrassing. I saw James use the word embarrassing on his video as well. It's weird. There are some, I noticed that there were a lot of Irish surnames in the Fleetwood team. And there are some players of Irish heritage in that team. So on the radio here yesterday, I turned on the one o 'clock news and in the sports section, they were talking to some club in Limerick. I can't remember the name of the player. who came from there, but it was like, what an amazing night for this football club in Limerick and for this young man who's come and made his way into the professional game.

7:02They've beaten the Premier League champions. They've beaten the Champions League finalists. So I think you can very, very easily apply the words embarrassing and sad and dismal and whatever else you want, you know, but cup football does that. It can throw up these games from time to time. As Arsenal fans, we know that very well. I think regardless of your vintage, whether it's Wrexham or whether it's Bradford in the recent past and some of the FA Cup defeats that we've had. You know, giant killing happens in cup games. Mikel Arteta did rotate his team. He brought in some young players. Marley Salmon started.

7:41Max Dowman started, obviously, and we'll talk about him. Cato O 'Neill started on the left-hand side. We're light in numbers in the wide areas. But it was also an opportunity for players who are senior players, are good players, and who haven't played a great deal this season, to get some minutes into their legs, to demonstrate to the manager that they should be playing more often and more regularly. You look at Martin Zubimendi, Piero Incapier, he's been sidelined through injury. Christian Mosquera, he's been sidelined through injury a little bit as well. Jurian Timber was in the starting lineup.

8:17You know, despite the fact that there were a smattering of young players, when you're starting, you know, in Capier, Timber, Zubimendi, Jokerez, Kai Havertz, you know, there is an expectation that an Arsenal team, even if it is weaker than it could be, should be able to go out and get that job done. And that just was not the case. Yeah, absolutely. And I think if you look back over the last couple of seasons, I know we've rotated heavily in cup competitions and we've got to use the squad. I remember it wasn't that long ago we were A, desperate for a squad. And then B, once we started to build a squad, we were all looking at Mikel Arteta and saying, you need to use this squad far better than you are doing currently.

8:57You need to trust some of these players that are maybe on the periphery of things at times. But I have to say one of the takeaways I took from this, and it's not the first time I felt this way after a heavily rotated Arsenal team went out and played, whether they won or not, whether they win the game or not. I do a lot of the time come away from these games. I don't know how you feel about this, thinking a few of you got a chance tonight and not many of you took it. Not many of you put in the kind of performance that gives Mikel Arteta the selection headache, for example, going into the weekend that you should be giving him.

9:35And so I try not to overreact to that because I think, well, these guys haven't played a lot and they haven't really got the rhythm and then the combinations you're looking at are not ones that are used to each other. And so maybe that's why we're not getting what we should be. But I do look at games like that often and think a lot of you got the nod tonight. That was an opportunity for so many of you. And actually, very few of you came away from it looking any better than what the perception of you is essentially. Well, that's it. And I think you can make those arguments and those caveats that like, okay, we haven't played together a great deal.

10:08We haven't played a great deal because of injury. You know, someone like, for example, Zubamendi, who I like, I think he's a really good player, but is in a difficult spot right now in his Arsenal career. I think he's been a bit unfortunate, right? With injuries, he had that injury in the warm down. He would have played against Lille. He probably comes into this game a little more sprightly, a little more match sharp if he plays that game against Lille. comes on against Everton, gets his nose broken within a minute. You know, I'm sure that's painful. I'm sure that's a difficult thing to deal with.

10:42At the same time, though, I'm looking at a guy who played in a World Cup final and thinking, listen, you should be able to impose yourself on this game a little more. And it's not just to single him out, but just as an example of a player, you know, who you expect more of in circumstances like this, you know, in Capier, Mosquera, Timber, making their way back from injury. So there are caveats that you can apply. At the same time, though, you want these players to step up. You want them to give the manager that headache and you want them, you know, to really give him something to think about and give him confidence as well to use these guys in games, not just necessarily from the start, but, you know, on the half hour mark, for example, if we're a couple of goals to the good, he feels confident about putting Martin Zubimendi on in place of Declan Rice to give Declan Rice that kind of rest that he needs.

11:33And look, if you look at the stats, 26 shots from Arsenal, nearly 80 % possession, a game we dominated. But at the same time, you'd be very hard pressed to say that this was a game in which we played well. Yeah, and I sort of like, I listen to stats like that. And obviously I look at them and, you know, we do factor them into our analysis of a game, as you should. But I also think sometimes like we've gone down this road and I don't know what you think about this. Maybe it's just me being a bit old fashioned. But I do think we've gone down this road a little bit where we're so obsessed with stats that sometimes we try and use them to, you know, cover up what was essentially not a great performance.

12:10Because ultimately, the most important stat is how many times you put the ball in the back of the net. And I know it sounds really simplistic and basic and old school, but you can have all the ball in the world. But if you're not doing anything with it, if you're not creating with it, if you're not, you know, punishing the opposition for that dominance, then it means very little. And I think this was a game in which we certainly created enough chances. We certainly had the opportunities to be clear in a way pretty actually early on in the game. And even though we went a goal down, it shouldn't have been a problem.

12:39I remember when we conceded, obviously we had that whole delay at the start because of the drone and all the rest of it. But then sort of 10 minutes after we conceded, I remember speaking to my old man. He texted me and I said, we'll be fine. We'll win this. We'll be fine. You know, we're creating, we're moving the ball nice and quickly, etc. But it's about the finishing. The finishing was not there the other night and it's not been there quite often actually. And I think this game, it's not one to go crazy about. It's not one to lose sleep over for days on end. But it is one that for me has at the very least brought some questions to the forefront of my mind that were always there, really, and that never really and truly went away.

13:21And every time you get an outcome like this, you're going to then start to ask those questions again. And so until those things are addressed, they're going to linger. And for me, a lot of the lingering worries and feelings have come back to the forefront of my mind. Yeah, I mean, listen, I mentioned those stats just to sort of give an overall view of the game. I agree with you that there are times where people will say, well, statistically, this was a good performance, but you also have eyes and you can also look at what you're seeing, right? 26 shots, seven shots on target. Is that a good return rate for 26 shots?

13:57You know, I'll let you or the people listening make their own minds up in that sense. But, you know, there were moments, you know, there was a really good chance for Max Daman, for example, on his right foot. He scuffed his shot wide. He just the keeper to beat. Those are the kind of moments where you need that little bit more attacking efficiency, you know, and there were chances in the second half. I think Kai Havertz was certainly guilty of a couple of misses. And maybe we'll talk about the wider conversation around strikers in a few minutes. But let's talk about the goal we conceded. I think it's one where Mikel Arteta will be unhappy that we didn't really do enough with the second ball in midfield, where we didn't put enough pressure on the opponent.

14:38They played it forward. Marley Salmon, listen, it's not great from the defender, but he's 17 years of age. And I think in the context of how we analyze this game, this one moment, despite the fact it cost us a goal, shouldn't be the biggest area of conversation, I think. You know, he was so good in the last round against Stipswich. He was brilliant. You know, he played with different partners at right back, different partners at centre half. And he was absolutely fantastic. This time, he got caught. Stryker got the wrong side of him. And it ended up with the ball in the back of the Arsenal net.

15:16But these are moments, I think, as a young defender that are going to happen. It's about how you learn from them and how you respond to them. Unfortunately for him, he was taken off at halftime because the manager wanted to make a couple of changes. And I can understand why he made those changes. And obviously, as a 17-year-old, you're probably a little more expendable. But I think in the grand scheme of things, this is one, it's a teachable moment for Marley Salmon, right? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. You know, without boring everyone in my job, I cover the under 21s a lot, like really a lot, like maybe every sometimes I can go through periods where it's every week.

15:50Sometimes it's every other week, whatever. But I've seen a lot more of Marley Salmon than I would say your average Arsenal fan just for that reason. And there's no doubt that he's a talent. There's no doubt that he's super composed in possession, that he's got the temperament for it. But the thing I always say and the thing that I think people miss is the physical jump up from academy football to senior football, even when you're talking about League Two teams. Actually, maybe it's more so prevalent in those games because those teams tend to lean on that. And when they come up against a side like Arsenal, they think, how do we compete?

16:24Well, we can't compete technically, so we'll compete physically. And we make sure that we do that. And I remember covering the 21s earlier this season. It was maybe a couple of months ago now. They played Barnett away from home in the EFL trophy. I thought Barnett, League Two side, this is an opportunity for the academy boys, you know, to go and get a really impressive result. And from the first minute, they were second best. It was backs against the wall. And it wasn't because Barnett were technically better than Arsenal. It was because they bullied them. And this was a Barnett side that made nine changes that night, right?

16:58So it wasn't their normal team. So that kind of really brought into focus for me the fact that for these boys, yes, stepping up is important, getting opportunities is important, but never underestimate the level of physical sort of power that they need to show to be able to compete in those games. and I thought that's essentially what happened to Marley Salmon. He just got out muscled. Once he'd made the mistake in terms of his positioning, he didn't have the physical capabilities to recover that or make life as difficult for the forward as he needed to to hopefully put him off. But he'll learn.

17:32It's not in the slightest changed my view on where Marley Salmon is on what the future holds for him. I still really rate the player. And regardless of what people want to say, I saw people in my comments the other day saying, you're talking about Giocares and you're talking about Havertz and all this, but really we lost the game because of Marley Salmon. No, sorry. We should have got a result in spite of that one incident involving Marley Salmon. And to actually pin it on a youngster like him who's making his way, I think is such a cop-out. There's so many senior players that were involved and they need to be looked at first.

18:07100 % agree with you there. And I think, you know, people will say the lad who scored is a young guy. I think he's on loan from Fulham. He is, yeah. He's 21 years of age. There is a lot of physical development that happens between the age of 17 and 21. You know, and some players take a while to sort of grow into their body, if you like, you know, to really develop physically. And I think he, Marley Salmon, kind of looks like one of those. At the moment, he's quite slight, isn't he? You know, he's quick and he's tall and he's, you know, so good on the ball, so composed. But you can see how there is a level of physical development that is going to be really important for him in his career.

18:47So I'm with you. I don't blame him for the defeat at all. I mean, clearly he could have done better on the goal, but there's a lot more to Arsenal losing this game than that one incident. You know, 26 shots, one goal. And the goal that we got was kind of mad. And the halftime came, Mikel Arteta made a couple of changes, Martin Odegaard, Ben White on for Timber and Salmon. Odegaard made a difference, I think it's fair to say. This was a game where I would have preferred to see no Martin Odegaard, I have to say. But needs must, right? I think we all recognize that there was something missing from the performance.

19:27And he did make a difference. He did make Arsenal a little bit more positive. one of the young players who came into the team I think it's his first team debut Cato Conell played a ball in from the left hand side I think he actually had quite a lively second half the first half was a little difficult for him but the second half I think he showed some nice stuff on the left hand side Fleetwood didn't deal with it it came to the vicinity of Victor Jacarez who sort of fell over and just touched it beyond the goalkeeper as he came out listen, a goal is a goal for a guy like Jokeres who hasn't scored.

20:01That was his first goal since May the 2nd, 15 appearances for Arsenal without scoring a goal. He absolutely 100 % needed that, regardless of how it went in, regardless of how clinical or otherwise the finish was. If it had gone in off his arse, he'd take that because I think you just need the ball to go in the back of the net. So from that perspective, you know, before we talk about maybe Jokeres and Havertz a little bit, But that was an important moment for Victor Jokeres, albeit with the caveat that it was a scrappy kind of goal against League Two opposition. Yeah, he needed to get off the mark.

20:36You know, for a long time, you know, I've been having debates with people about Victor Jokeres. I know we're going to expand on that a little bit further in a minute. But I just think when you're starved of a goal, when you're a striker whose bread and butter is essentially scoring goals, and particularly in Victor Jokeres' case, and there'll be people that completely disagree with this, but I don't think he offers that much else. I think that means that you need to score, you know, and you need to get off the mark and you need to be able to point to that piece of paper and say, well, I got a goal here today.

21:05When people are criticising your performance in your all-round game, which Victor Jokeres gets a lot, then you need to be able to point to those numbers. And up until the other night, he hadn't had those numbers. Well, I'm still not saying one goal is enough, but he needed to get off the mark. He needed to get going. and you feel like that could have been a kickstart moment. I don't know how much of a kickstart moment it is, though, given that we go on to lose the game. I think if Victor Jokeres scores the goal that brings us back in the game and then we go on and win it, then that goal will be held up in much higher regard, whereas now it's almost like you're almost ashamed to bring up the fact that Victor Jokeres scored because we lost to Fleetwood Town.

21:43And so that makes it less of a talking point, I suppose. But I guess for him in his own mind, in his own head, he'll know that he's off the market. Maybe that'll relax him a bit. How do you view the overall performance then? Because I think Kai Havertz, you know, had seven shots in this game. And his finishing was poor and there's no two ways about it. I think some of the efforts that he had were really, really poor. He should have done better with at least two of them and scored goals. But I'm looking at someone like Jokeres. He completed five of nine passes against League Two opposition. And I think there is a reasonable conversation to be had about your number nine, your striker being the focal point of your attack.

22:30And I'm not saying everything has to go through him. I'm not saying that he has to be holding players off here, there are everywhere, but I want my striker to be more involved than that. I feel like there are games, whether it's against League Two or whether it's against Premier League, and it happens sometimes in Europe as well, where he just does not get the ball. And then people will say, well, we never pass him the ball. And I don't really agree with that contention. But I also look at a game like this as a kind of yardstick in a way, that if he can only make five passes out of nine, if he's only receiving nine passes in the game against Fleetwood Town, does it speak to him?

23:10Does it speak to some wider systemic issue that the team has? Is it something to do with the way he moves? Is it something to do with the way he positions himself? Do you expect more? Did you expect more from him in a game like this? Because we've seen him do a lot better against better opposition than Fleetwood. You know, you can think back to the Atletico Madrid games last season, for example, where you go, well, why can't you do that more? And I come away from this having significant worries about the centre forward position at Arsenal. because I think Havertz started the season brightly, but has gone off the boil.

23:48And I mentioned the misses in this game, seven shots, no goals. He really should have done better. Jacare, okay, fair enough. He got his goal, but his involvement was limited. And you can't help, I don't think, when you've got a game like Liverpool on Sunday, you cannot help as a fan and wonder like, and I know it's not quite as simple as this, or it's a bit of a reductive argument, But if you can't do it against Fleetwood, how do we have confidence that you can go and do it on Sunday at Anfield? You're absolutely right. I have these debates with myself in my own mind. I'm starting to go crazy about Victor Jochores all the time.

24:29You mentioned the Atletico Madrid game. That's an example of Victor Jochores at his best. The problem is, quite frankly, is that those performances are just too few and far between when it comes to him. you know people often push back when I criticize him and say to me yeah but he's occupying the center-halves sorry any center forward standing remotely close to the goal will be occupying the center-halves that's not some badge of honor that Victor Jokeres can hold up and then people say to me we don't play to his strengths if you're Mikel Arteta and you're watching him struggle to bring the ball under control struggling to complete passes struggling to get on the end of things how do you justify altering your game model to benefit him above everybody else?

25:14You can't. And the simple fact is that Victor Jokovic has to do more. He's on the periphery of games too much for me. Sometimes when we want to play out or when we want to get forward, you try and go long to him and the ball doesn't stick. It doesn't stay with him. And so it's weird because, yes, he's got the goal record last season, 20 plus goals, I think it was 22 across all competitions, which is a very, very decent number for your first year in the country or back in the country playing at Premier League level. And yes, he played a massive part in us winning the Premier League last season.

25:49Nobody's seeking to take that away from him, but his form right now is not good enough. Neither is Kai Havertz's, but at least with Kai Havertz, I have faith that he'll get in the right positions. He'll get those chances, even if he's not clinical. We all knew he wasn't clinical from the day he arrived, but he gets in those areas and he brings so much more to the team so even though I came away from Tuesday night thinking that might be Kai Havertz's most wasteful appearance in an Arsenal shirt to date I'd still pick him at Anfield over Victor Jokoris for all of those reasons I've mentioned but the truth is neither of them are at the level that we need them to be and I just have this nagging feeling in the back of my mind from week to week that come May, when we are fighting for the big trophies, when we really need the business to be taken care of, we don't have a center forward that is of that top level.

26:42We don't have wingers at the moment that are of that top, top level in terms of where they're at performance wise today. And the whole attack worries me. It concerns me everywhere else. We're fine, but that really does worry me. And it keeps coming back into the forefront of my thinking. Absolutely. I agree with you. I think, you know, the summer requires some serious examination in terms of why we didn't do more. You know, this time, well, 18 months ago, before we signed Victor Jokeres, everybody was saying Arsenal need to sign a striker because we were short on numbers. You know, the Gabriel Jesus situation was what it was, but we were using Marino.

27:18Kai Havertz was injured. And I think generally the accepted wisdom was that Arsenal needed to sign a striker. But here we are. we're in October, nearly November, and we've signed Victor Jokeres, and that conversation is still the same, that we need to sign a centre forward, that Arsenal need to improve in that area. And I agree with you as well about the wide areas. We're not particularly replete with goals in those wide areas as well. And it is, you know, if you were doing an overview, I know Arsenal brought in some consultants to, you know, make 60 people redundant. But the overview of the footballing side of things needs to really look at the recruitment in forward areas over the last number of years.

28:04And I accept, and I'm sure you do, and many people listening to this will accept that it is the hardest part of recruitment. It is easier to find good defenders and good midfielders because there are more of them. Top level wingers and strikers are not 10 a penny, right? So I accept that. But at the same time, I think you look at what we've got and you can't help but be worried about where we're going to get the goals from. You know, we need Jocheres to spring to life. We need Havertz to come back to life. We need Solis to score goals. Like he's had a bright start to his season, but, you know, hasn't got a goal yet for Arsenal.

28:43I know he's been out injured for the last couple of weeks and he's got time on his side. So, you know, we need Matuweke to deliver more, particularly in the absence of Bakayo Saka. We need Eberachie Ezzet to deliver more. And I think there is still an argument that on top of that, Arsenal need to look very, very, very closely at what they've got and the January transfer window and think about, you know, what we didn't do in the summer and correct that in the January window. And I know some people will say, well, it's an overreaction. You're taking too much from one cup game against Fleetwood that was admittedly terrible.

29:21But look at the rest of what we've done this season and that we found the goals we need to win most of the games that we've played this season. I know that. But at the same time, you can't watch this team week in, week out and not think that there isn't room for improvement. And if you don't think there's room for improvement, please drop me an email because I've got some fucking magic beans to sell you. Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's not like, and to be clear, we're not sitting here and we're saying Victor Jokeres is terrible. He's the worst striker ever. And that Kai Havertz is completely useless and that Nani Maduweke can't help your team or whatever.

29:52But the bar's been raised at Arsenal. You know, the bar's been raised. And yes, you're right. You know, overall this season, we've been very, very good. And the results we've got are really, really positive. But we didn't go into this season resting on our laurels, not as fans anyway. We went into this season hoping, right, what can we do? Can we retain the Premier League title? Something that Arsenal have never done. Can we go and win the Champions League? Again, something Arsenal have never done. So the bar needs to be raised further. It's not that we're sitting here being ungrateful for everything that these players have done for us today or dismissing them or writing them off.

30:29It's just that you can't see that tangible improvement in that particular department, I don't think. And we haven't got to that stage that we did at times last year where you were looking at the team and you were wondering where a goal is going to come from. We're not there yet, but we're preempting the problem. And by preempting the problem, you'd like to think that you can hopefully go some way in solving it. Like we're going to be without Saka for a while, you know, probably two months-ish, right? By then, you know, you're creeping in towards the January transfer window. You have to be looking at that now and thinking, we've got to do something.

31:04We've got to bring someone in, you know, and it's got to be someone who we believe can significantly improve our chances. And again, I refute people coming at us and saying, well, you know, you're being, because I get this all the time, you're being ungrateful. These are the Premier League champions. We recognise that. And man, that was the biggest buzz I've had in two decades. I absolutely loved every second of it. Sure. But we want more. We've been talking all summer about building a dynasty. You know, that word gets wheeled out a lot. And it wasn't fans, by the way, who used that word. It was Josh Kroenke.

31:36It was Miguel Arteta who used those words, not fans. Exactly. And in order to do that, then you need to go and improve in the departments where we're clearly lacking. Nobody's saying that we're terrible or that we're the worst in the league at it. There's not that scale of kind of overreaction off the back of the Fleetwood game. but it goes back to what I said before, Andrew. Sometimes as a football fan, when you watch a team week in, week out, questions develop in your mind and there'll be weeks where those questions, they go to the back of your mind. You're not concerned by them. You're focused on the good and you don't worry about it.

32:07But when the same question keeps coming to the front of your mind over and over and over again, it's probably something there that needs addressing. No, absolutely. I completely agree with that. You can be respectful and grateful for what these players have given us, but also, you know, as you made the point very well, and, you know, this is the manager who is setting those standards. This is what the manager wants. He wants a dynasty. You know, he wanted somebody like Vinicius Jr. He wanted a Morgan Rodgers. Whether you think he was a good fit or a bad fit or whatever, that's somebody who he wanted.

32:39He wanted Julian Alvarez. You know, these are the caliber of players that he wanted but didn't get, right? And I think, you know, Mikel Arteta plays a big part in recruitment. It's not just down to him, but I don't think you can, on the one hand, say, okay, we want to create a dynasty. We want to do one better in the Champions League. And then as a club, let's say, holistically as an organization, stand over a summer window in which you let Trossard, Martinelli and Gabriel Jesus go, and you just add Christos Solis, who I've been encouraged by, and I hope that when he returns, he can really contribute.

33:19you know so these conversations I don't think are unreasonable at all particularly when you look at that second half and look Kai Havertz there was a brilliant chance when he was played in by Martin Odegaard a fantastic pass from Odegaard and he just sort of put it wide he should have gone back across the goal there were a couple of headers he should have done better with there were chances obviously towards the end of the game there was one for Ben White there was one for Martin Odegaard as well which the keeper saved and there was another one late on as well I think where There was a late flurry, I think, from Arsenal, but I think it was Havertz again, actually.

33:53It was a header that just sort of drifted wide. But before that, there was a big incident involving Max Dowman, where there was a challenge on him on the sideline, a strong challenge. I think in my mind, I think some of the screenshots don't really give us the full picture of it. You know, it's sort of one of those where if one of our players goes sliding in and wins that challenge on the sideline, you know, you're sort of on your feet going brilliant. In this instance, he slid in, he got the ball, he continued to slide through Max Dam and Max reacted. And I think he retaliates very slightly. And the referee views that as sufficient for a red card.

34:49I don't agree. I don't think it is sufficient for a red card. I think it is a very minor retaliatory action. He sort of pushes his leg towards the player. He doesn't kick him. For me, it doesn't meet the threshold of violent conduct. And I do think that if this was a decision that had to go to a VAR review, they would have been unable to tell us that that was violent conduct. Nevertheless, Max shouldn't react, right? That's the thing. You shouldn't react. You don't give the referee the decision to make. Before we get into what happened subsequent to that, what's your view of the incident and the way that Max behaved in that moment?

35:31Well, I think the challenge is a naughty one. I think it's the kind of challenge where you're always going to hide behind the fact that you got the ball as the defender, but you know exactly what you're doing in terms of the force that was applied. But also it's the way the follow through comes about. It's the follow through that's dangerous. It's not the tackle. It's the follow through. It's the way that the second leg sort of comes and wraps around Max. And, you know, I spoke to someone yesterday who, you know, specializes in sports injuries and was saying to me that the reason that that's so dangerous is because if Max's leg gets trapped in between, you know, the two legs and then he tries to move or he tries to jump out of the way, that's where the damage can really occur.

36:12So the challenge was dangerous. Max shouldn't react, but I don't think the reaction was something that you can deem as violent conduct. And where I get frustrated by people is that, and obviously, you know, you see all the stuff on social media and it's not a great gauge of where people are at because it's normally nonsense, most of it. But there was people that were going, Arsenal being soft, you know, that's not a bad challenge. It's a clean tackle, etc, etc. But then those same people who are sort of advocating for this blood and thunder version of football that we get down in the football league were then calling what Max did violent conduct.

36:49And I'm like, well, hold on a minute. Which one is it? Either everybody stops being, to put it the way they would, soft and you accept the tackle and you accept the reaction. Or you say that both are wrong, right? You can't be in between. And that's the kind of the position that we find ourselves in as Arsenal when people are sort of looking at incidents involving us. he shouldn't react he shouldn't react but he does I don't blame him for reacting because I think in the heat at the moment you will I I don't know how much of it was Max kicking him and how much of it was Max sort of trying to get his leg out but doing it in a way that made a point that this challenge was a bad one it was a naughty one I think it was a bit of that but I think he's a kid I think I would have reacted to that challenge like that and I'm 36 years old So, you know, I don't blame him for reacting in the way he did.

37:38Sure. Arsenal are appealing the red card, which I believe is the right thing to do. Me too. There is precedent, for example, for the three-game ban to be reduced down, let's say, to one game or something like that. Whether the red card is overturned or not, there have been incidents in the past where it has been successfully argued that a three-game ban for what is, in the moment deemed violent conduct on review doesn't really meet the threshold for violent conduct. And then the ban has been reduced. I think there was, I have it in my mind that it happened to Jack Wilshere. I also think there was one with Cesc Fabregas maybe when he was playing for Chelsea.

38:22And I'm sure there have been others as well. So I think from an Arsenal perspective, we absolutely should be appealing this because even if it doesn't get overturned, it feels absurd to me that Max might miss three games for what was not very much in the grand scheme of things. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, look, you know, we talk a lot about VAR, don't we? And how bad VAR is. But I think VAR in this instance kind of highlights and gives you a much clearer picture of what's happened and you're probably more likely to come to the right decision. I think my problem with the referee and obviously the subsequent punishment, as you say, it feels disproportionate to what's gone on.

39:02But my issue with this kind of thing is that you can't possibly see clearly what's gone on there. And I just wish that referees, rather than taking the position of, well, I've got to send someone off here, would just take a minute and think, hold on, what have I actually seen here? What can I actually, you know, confirm has happened and just deal with it a bit differently. I remember when Phil Foden got sent off earlier in the season at Old Trafford. He was involved in that thing with Bruno Fernandes. And obviously they had VAR there, but I just thought to myself, Just show them both a yellow car and move on.

39:32You don't need to be doing this. And I'm not saying Max should get different treatment because he's 16 years old. Ultimately, he's playing the men's game, right? So he needs to be refereed in the same way and he needs to get used to that. He needs to wise up to it. But I just think it was unnecessary and the punishment, as you say, is so disproportionate. I agree. I think if he'd shown two yellows there, the game would have gone on and nobody would be talking about it afterwards. As it is, the referee decided that he was going to send down and off. Then it becomes a big thing, obviously, and it's made bigger by the way Mikel Arteta reacted on the sideline.

40:08He certainly gave Max a little bit of an earful as he was going down the tunnel. I find this one very interesting because it is dividing opinion, right? There are people who will say, as you say, he's playing the men's game. He's got to learn. You know, he shouldn't get mollycoddled. He shouldn't get any special kind of treatment. And I'm thinking, okay, I can see where you're coming from there. It's just I've never seen Mikel Arteta react like that to a senior player when they've been sent off. And there have been some stupid fucking sendings off in Mikel Arteta's time at this football club. Some really stupid ones.

40:40And I have not seen him make an issue of it on the sideline in the way that he did with Max there, right? I accept that maybe he's frustrated because it seems, based on what he said afterwards, that they spoke about this. You know, don't react. Don't rise to the bait. Okay? I get it. His frustration is probably compounded by the fact that he's got no Bukayo Saka. He's got no Christos Solis. He's got Nani Matueke maybe nursing an ankle injury going into this weekend's game against Liverpool. And so we're really light in wide areas. And Max now might miss this game on Sunday against Liverpool. More than likely we'll miss that and could potentially miss two more games.

41:21So that's, I get it. I get why a manager is frustrated by that. I also think, despite the fact that he is playing the men's game, he is 16 years of age. He's a literal child. And I think Arteta has done a brilliant job of protecting Max Dowman, you know, of, of recognizing that there are challenges for him because of his age, the spotlight that's on him. We talk about Marley Salmon having to develop physically. So too does Max Salmon. You know, he's a little sapling of a lad. You know, he's tall, but he, you know, there's not much meat on the bones, shall we say. So he's got those physical developments.

42:02You have to protect a player when he's 16 years of age. You have to think about where you play him, how you play him, what kind of pressure or what kind of burden you put on him. In this instance, my feeling is that Mikel Arteta got it wrong. that this was already going to be a big thing because it's Max Dowman being sent off at 16 on a night when Arsenal crashed out against League Two opposition and all the fun and games that that provides everybody looking on. And I think whatever he needed to say to Max could have been said in the dressing room afterwards. It's not the biggest issue in the whole wide world.

42:39And I think generally speaking, Arteta gets most things right, generally. Not always. He's not infallible. I think on this occasion, in my opinion, he got this one wrong. He should have saved it for the dressing room. And if he wants to give Max a dressing down, absolutely. If he wants to scold him, chastise him, teach him a lesson, that can be done behind closed doors within the sanctuary of the dressing room. I just think by doing it on the sideline, you opened it up to, you know, the spotlight was already on, then it's turned up to a million now because of the way that Arteta reacted. and I'm curious as to your take on this.

43:18I feel much the same. I thought that Mikel Arteta's reaction was unlike him. He's normally very, very sort of defensive of his players. He normally, you know, will fight wars for them. He's got no problem in sort of coming out and backing them, sometimes maybe even when they're in the wrong. I can think of some of those, you know, as you were talking there about some of the sendings off we've suffered over the last couple of years. Like last year, we were really great with it, but the year before was a disaster. And there were times where even though the sending off felt harsh, you know, by the letter of the law, they were sendings off.

43:53Yet Mikel Arteta would come and front up and really make a massive song and dance about defending his players. And I liked that at the time because there were times where I'd listen to him and I think, you know that your player can do more here. You know that your player can be better here. but you've chosen to come out publicly and fight for your player, which I love because what that does is it builds that togetherness. It makes players feel like you've got their backs. And that's so, so important as a manager, I think. Particularly when there's lots of different versions of media now, there'll be lots of narratives swirling around.

44:26To be able to go into the changing room as a player and know that he's going to back you no matter what. He might give you, as you said, the dressing down behind the scenes. But when it comes to fronting up, he's going to back you. It's a powerful thing. And I like you. Yeah, I did say that, you know, Max is playing in the men's game and you've got to just get on with it and he's got to get used to it and he's got to learn the lessons, etc, etc. But I'm surprised that someone as intelligent as Mikel when watching Max walk off, he looked distraught, by the way, when he was walking off. You know, this wasn't a an angry, arrogant 16 year old who's like, you know, can't recognize and doesn't understand that he's done something that maybe jeopardizes his team's chances of winning the game.

45:07he's walked off crestfallen and Mikel Arteta should in my opinion not saying you have to give him a hug or anything just give him a pat on the back as he walks past you and and do the the dressing down afterwards I completely agree with you he got this so so wrong because you've seen it all yesterday you know people talking about you know what he might have said I've seen all these lip readers come out of the woodwork saying this is what he said and others are saying no that's what he said ultimately you've created a storm that didn't need to happen and and I think that actually the fact that the club have then gone on to appeal this red card i think that's the club's way of saying max we back you i like we didn't maybe michael didn't see fully what had gone on because it was on the other side of the pitch and maybe that the appeal is his way of saying look i got it wrong it wasn't your fault now we're going to fight for you even if they don't think they're going to win the appeal i think they're doing it to kind of make the point to Max that no actually you know I was I reacted in the way that I did emotions were high tensions were high but I've looked at it now and I think you're right and I'm going to support you so let's let's go with the appeal yeah I mean I think the appeal first and foremost is because they think they can win it or they think they can get a positive outcome but but also if Max and his reaction was heat of the moment I think Arteta's was as well that maybe he felt Max had done something more than he actually did in that situation that maybe he had you know kicked the guy rather than just sort of thrust his leg in in that direction so I'm really curious as to to how he might address it in his press conference tomorrow with the benefit of replays with the benefit of hindsight you know is it something that he can is it something that he can uh address in a more sort of positive way I'm curious because in the tv interview afterwards it was on Sky and And the interviewer said something to him like, do you think you'll learn a lesson from this?

47:04And he was like, yeah, we can all learn lessons from everything. Yeah. He was really steaming about the whole thing. And I do wonder with more time and the ability to look at it properly, if he's a little more, not on Max's side, because I don't think he's not on his side. It's just that in that moment, I think he maybe thought something different had happened. Yeah. And I think as well that in the interview on TV, obviously he got asked in the press conference what was said. And he obviously didn't really elaborate. He just said it was something that we talked about before. I was surprised actually that in the TV interview, that question wasn't one of the first questions that was put to him.

47:44But, you know, I've done a lot of interviews for radio. It's not quite the same. But I know that sometimes you can go in there with the intention of asking certain things and then your mind gets fried and, you know, you've only got three or four questions. and you can miss the one that you really want to ask. But yeah, I think for me, ultimately, he's probably looked at it. He's probably got a better understanding of what's happened. And maybe, and I hope his stance has changed because I do think if you gave Max a dressing down after the game for that, you probably need to wheel back on it a little bit having seen the replays and the evidence.

48:21Well, let's see what he does in the press conference tomorrow ahead of Liverpool. So look, the game finished 1-1. It went to penalties. Fair play to Fleetwood. They took five good penalties. Arsenal didn't. Bruno Guimaraes missing, as he did for Brazil in the World Cup, with that kind of stutter run-up. Are you on that bandwagon? Are you running for mayor on the platform of banned stutter penalties? Yes, yes, absolutely. I hate them. I always think back to Ebereche Ezzes one in the Champions League final. I hate them. I heard a stat last night when I was watching Liverpool against Chelsea that 57 % of the stutter penalties in the World Cup were converted.

49:10The rest were missed. That's a massive proportion. 43%. So basically two and five. Basically you're missed. Two and five. Yeah. Yeah. It's too many. Because what it does is it sort of telegraphs to the goalkeeper, doesn't it? what you're going to do. It's kind of a game of chicken. You think the goalkeeper is going to go. Goalkeepers have wisened up to it. They don't go. And now it's like, well, you haven't got the run up anymore because you're in a standing position. Now you have to produce the placement and the power to beat me. And it just doesn't work. And I was incredibly frustrated by that penalty kick.

49:44I hate them. I don't want to see them done. If I were Mikel Arteta, honestly, I know I sound like a dinosaur again, not for the first time today, but I would be furious if my player stepped up to take a penalty like that and didn't score it. I just don't want to see penalties taken like that full stop. It's one of those where, you know, I guess if you talk to Eberacci, that's where he feels comfortable. You know, just using him as an example. Notable, he didn't take a penalty. Maybe he was up number five or whatever, but he will say, I feel comfortable taking penalties this way. This is my technique.

50:20It works for me. it's one of those that if it doesn't work you look a bit silly that's just the the long and the short of it isn't it you know yeah whereas if you run up and smash it over the bar I think there's more forgiveness for something like that whether it's more efficient or not um it is certainly an ongoing conversation has been since the world cup and sort of the groundswell of opinion around these is is really growing but if two and five of those penalties are being missed then yeah I as a manager I'd certainly be having words with my players yeah because as I say you're you're basically one of the things that gives a penalty taker the advantage is that obviously the distance right and if you get the power and the placement right from there there's very little chance like the goalkeeper you're relying on the goalkeeper to save it he has to guess right but then not only does he have to guess right he has to get down quick enough And if he does get down quick enough, he's got to make a strong enough contact to stop the ball that's been hit with power getting into the back of the net.

51:25So there's so many factors there. Whereas with the starter pin, as I say, you run up, you stop. And if the goalkeeper doesn't go, now all of a sudden you're a yard from the ball. You've got your foot drawn back as if you're ready to strike the ball. you can't manipulate the ball in the same way now because you don't have the angle to perhaps change what your initial plan was in terms of where you're going to put it and you can't generate the power so two of the things that would make it difficult for the goalkeeper you're removing them from the equation by taking a penalty like that but I don't think it's rocket science I just think it's basic you know yeah it's basic logic that that's going to be easier for a goalkeeper to save.

52:06So why do it? Yeah. Anyway, it cost us and we're out of the EFL Cup. You know, I can look at this game and think that was terrible. Arsenal should do better. Some players really let themselves down in terms of their performances. But I'm all right sort of moving on. And then, you know, you look at the schedule that's coming up this week. There's two tricky away games, obviously. we um we go to anfield then it's prague um and then there's a home game against hull before we have an interlal as well um which gives us a two-week break i think before we come back away to newcastle after which there's like a run of i think 10 or 12 games where arsenal do not leave london um which is uh you know hopefully a bit of an advantage because we seem to have done a lot of travel and we seem to have played a lot of games away from home so far this season so it'll be nice to sort of stay local for a bit Harry yeah absolutely and it does make a difference you know in terms of your preparation in terms of not just the traveling and the toll that that takes on you but just being in your routine as well isn't it like no matter how much you prepare for away games the routines are always different depending on where you're going yeah um you know you're going to be staying in different places at least with a home game you can you know and Mikel Arteta is a big family guy and he talks about that a lot you know the players are with their families you can report in a lot later I'm sure um and I think it does it does reduce the the workload not just physically but mentally on the players as well so yeah hopefully you know we can we can get through this next few games and then we can go um into that international break in decent shape and then come back and really kind of put our foot down on the gas hopefully with some some players back by then and hopefully with a bit more confidence in the front line.

53:59Because going back to that point, we know that those players are maybe not elite level, but we also know that they're capable of producing a lot more than they are at the moment. So, you know, there is room for improvement and fingers crossed we can get to a place where we are no longer worried and stressed about our attacking out. Yeah, or as worried, let's say. You know, the next three games we get some goals, it'll do them the world of good. and hopefully they can do that. I believe we're looking at a potential return for William Saliba as well after the international break, which is really good news.

54:32And, you know, people are talking all the time about how does he get back into the team with Esri Konza? And there's also part of me going, it's William Saliba. This is William Saliba we're talking about here. But, you know, that would be a positive aspect. And hopefully between now and then we don't pick up any more injuries and certainly don't pick up any on the international break as well. Right, we'll leave it there. Harry, a pleasure as always. Thank you very much indeed. And we'll chat again soon. Thanks for having me, mate.

55:23your actual workflow. Make work less work. Try Google Workspace with Gemini at go.gle slash workspace with Gemini.

55:36Thank you very much indeed to Harry. You can find him on the Chronicles of Agooner podcast, which is available wherever you get your podcasts. Right. Before we go today, a couple of things. And I did say at the top that I give you details of the book launch, which is happening on Friday, November 6th we are launching the 22 it is a book of pictures and words celebrating Arsenal's Premier League title win back in May you have got words from me pictures from James Clifford Kent and it's all packaged in a box you get a bookmark you get a double-sided A2 print you get postcards you get stickers and we are launching it as I said Friday November 6th at the Big Red on Holloway Road, which is obviously kind of fitting because so many of the pictures were taken around that part of North London when the parade was underway and millions of people were celebrating Arsenal winning the title.

56:32If you want to come along, we have got a link in the show notes where you can register for the event. We need to know if you want to come and buy a book because we need to know how many to bring. So if you want to come along, click the link in the show notes, register. You'll also get a chance to buy the book on Monday. We'll send an email out to everybody. You can buy the book and just come along and collect. We will be able to take payments on the night as well if you're registered and you want to come and do it that way. But if you want to purchase and secure your copy, you can do it that way as well.

57:03Copies are limited to two per person because there are only 2 ,026 of these in the entire world. That's all that's being made. It's super limited edition. So it could be something for you, for your collection, or it could be something as, let's say, a Christmas gift for the Arsenal fan in your life. But they are very, very limited edition. The book, the whole package costs£50, which is about half the price of the latest Adidas Arsenal hoodie that they released, obviously, in the wake of losing to Fleetwood. There's always a new merchandise drop. Copies will also be made available online, first and foremost, to our Patreon members tomorrow, Friday.

57:41They will get first dibs to buy a copy online. And then after the event on November 7th, copies will be made available on general sale if there are any left. So there you go. Follow the link in the show notes. Or if you want to get access via Patreon, you can do that at patreon.com forward slash arseblog, where also tomorrow we will be giving you a Liverpool preview podcast looking ahead to our big game on Sunday against Liverpool at Anfield. A lot to unpack, obviously, and a lot that we hope will improve from the game against Fleetwood on Tuesday evening. So plenty going on. So patreon.com forward slash arseblog for that.

58:22Just a final thing. Thank you to everybody who was in touch by email or left a comment after I spoke on Monday about being in hospital. Still waiting for results and all that kind of stuff. But I'm feeling okay and, you know, keeping fingers crossed that everything will be all right. But I really do appreciate all the kind words and good messages and good wishes and good thoughts. So thank you all. It's back at you. I always appreciate you guys for being here and for being part of the Arseblog community, whether you're a podcast listener or a blog reader, a player ratings advocate or whatever it might be.

58:54Thank you so much for being part of it. Remember, you can download the new Arseblog apps as well for iOS and Android. Go to the relevant app store, get the new app. It's packed full of new features, and hopefully you can enjoy that as well. So join us tomorrow for a preview podcast. I hope you all have a fantastic weekend, whether you're trick-or-treating and Halloween-ing and all that kind of stuff. But have a great weekend. You can join myself and James, obviously, on Monday for an Ask Cast Extra. For now, though, folks, take it easy, and we will catch you on the next one.

59:38I'm out.

1:00:30Thank you. Workspace with Gemini at goo.gle slash workspace with Gemini.