278: ENCORE: How to Stay Connected When Teens Pull Away

0:00Dr. Lisa Damour: Friends, have you ever wished that you could get instantaneous answers to your toughest parenting questions? Well, now you can. I am thrilled to introduce you to Rosalie, my free AI-powered content guide that is designed to help parents just like you. So here's how it works. You go to my website, drlisademour.com, and ask Rosalie your question. Rosalie will give you a short answer based on my work and also guide you to the best resources from everything I've ever written and to the Ask Lisa podcast episodes that directly tackle the topic you're searching for. So whether you're wondering how to handle sibling rivalry or navigating a teen's screen time or just trying to figure out how to best support a child who's having a hard time with stress, Rosalie is available 24-7 for free to help you.

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1:02Tell me a parenting issue everyone struggles with with tweens and teens, but no one talks about. Reena, I think a lot of people feel like they just don't know how to connect to their kid anymore. I'm Reena Nainan, and welcome to Ask Lisa, the psychology of raising tweens and teens. And I'm Dr.

1:19Dr. Lisa Damour: Lisa DeMoor. We bring you science-backed strategies for managing anxiety, discipline, intense emotions, and more. We decode tough parenting issues with tips you can use right now. So subscribe to Ask Lisa, the psychology of raising tweens and teens, and join our YouTube community today. Just Google Ask Lisa Podcast. We're here to help you untangle family life. Encore episode 278, how to stay connected when teens pull away.

1:55Dr. Lisa Damour: Friends, if your teenager seems more attached to their friends and their phone than you, that may be more than just a feeling. Doctors Gabor Matej and Gordon Neufeld join us to explain what's actually happening in the parenting relationship when our kids start to pull away. And it's not what most of us think. This is one of our most watched episodes ever on YouTube, and when you have a chance to look at it, you'll see why. You know, Lisa, one thing I've heard you say over and over and over again is how much relationships really matter, especially the relationship with your child. I know we've heard from so many parents over the years who say that their kids start to withdraw during the teenage years.

2:34And what I love about our next two guests is they have this incredible explanation that I had never heard of before I read their book about why kids withdraw. It's true.

2:44Dr. Lisa Damour: This is, you know, if I think about what do parents struggle with, especially in adolescence, it's the wish to stay connected to their kids. And I am just absolutely thrilled that we have two giants in the field with us today who have brought across work that really shares what we understand from the academic and the clinical side in all of its richness in a way that is entirely translated for broad audiences, but doesn't dumb it down. And that is hard to do. And they do that work beautifully. Well, the book we're talking about is called Hold On to Your Kids. It's a parenting classic by Dr. Gordon Newfield and Dr.

3:20Gabor Matei. It's recently been re-released with a new look at the rising youth mental health challenges and how digital life is deepening peer influence. We want to welcome both of them to our show. Thank you so much for joining us. Pleased to be here. We're just delighted to have you. Okay.

3:38Dr. Lisa Damour: So we talk so often on the podcast about how strong relationships with caring adults are the single most powerful force for mental health and young people. Can you unpack how this book addresses that idea and what this connection really looks like in everyday life? In a few words. Share the entire thesis of your whole book. Yes. And your life's work. And a soundbite for Instagram. Right. There were so many more words than I had that were able to get into the book. But in a nutshell, we've been after this idea of independence, and it turns out that we as humans have relational needs. And relational needs, by definition, are where we depend on others.

4:29and the drive for togetherness is the most significant preeminent drive of all. It's true for all mammals and it's especially true for humans in very many ways. This never goes away. It's there from the cradle to the grave. It's always there. So this idea that adolescents somehow didn't need us or somehow they were to get these needs met with each other, that they belong to each other, rather than they belong to those who were responsible for them. this is so errant, it's so wrong, it's so contrary to everything we know, to all the literature, to all the science. And so parents have lost their confidence in believing they are still their best bet for their adolescence.

5:31And yes, what this book is about is that attachment is is a delivery system of care, but it requires an umbilical cord. If the adolescent isn't attached to the parent anymore, that parent can love them with all their heart. That parent can care, but it's not getting through. And when peers matter, peer groups matter, those who aren't responsible for the child the care doesn't get through and this is dreadful for the adolescents it's dreadful for the parents because they're still there loving their child but think they're no longer in the game and they think their adolescents are independent of them now because they're not depending upon them well they've just transferred their dependence to others that can't really take care of them And so this book is really about restoring that understanding that our adolescents still need us.

6:35In fact, they need us more than ever in this world. Are you kidding? I'm 45, and I feel like I need my parents more than ever, than even before the teenage years. Dr. Matej, I want to ask you a little bit about this concept of peer-oriented and parent-oriented kids. Of course, we know kids need friends. So at what point does peer orientation really become a problem? Well, first of all, let's look at humans from the evolutionary point of view. For millions of years there have been human beings on Earth. For 200 ,000 years our own species has been on Earth. For all those millions of years and for most of those 200 ,000 years, kids grew up in a whole network of adult attachments.

7:17It's not that they didn't have friends, but the friends weren't the primary relationship. The primary relationship was with the adults, with the uncles, the aunts, the parents, the whole community.

7:32And this has been subverted in modern culture. As Gordon points out, development takes place in a pyramidal fashion, the basis of which, the basis of the pyramid is attachment, strong relationship with parents. And the part that's really important to emphasize is that the child's brain itself, the circuitry of the child's brain, physiologically, is shaped according to the early relationships. This is a physiological fact, a neurophysiological fact. So there's attachment. Then there is the drive for individuation. And nature wants us in the end to become independent, not asocial, but independent creatures with our own sense of who we are, our meanings, our understandings, our preferences.

8:20Then comes socialization, which is where people who are truly individuated can connect respectfully and caringly with other human beings. Now in all culture, we've put socialization ahead of individuation. So long before kids are their own persons, and long before their attachment with the adults is solidified, we put them into their peer group. And they spend most of their time with their peers. So their attachment becomes transferred to the peer group before they even know who they are. So based on that research, what would you advise parents then? Should we be telling them to hang out with their friends less?

9:01Well, so when it comes to teenagers, what we call teenage healthy rebellion is neither healthy nor is it a rebellion. Because genuine rebellion is for freedom. But the peer group, the teenager who undergoes what we call healthy teenage rebellion, actually just wants to belong and submit themselves to the peer group. So it's neither rebellion nor is it healthy. Now, what should we do? Well, this is Gordon's work, is to recognize the primary importance of attachment throughout the life cycle, but certainly through adolescence, which means that anything we do to raise our kids, the behaviors, the institutions that they go to, whatever, needs to value attachment above anything else.

9:51And then they can be prepared for the individuation, the healthy individuation. So, well, there's lots of advice in the book. It's really hard to summarize it in a few words. But fundamentally, parents need to understand the importance of attachment, which means staying away from this stuff, staying away from the social media. Don't let your infants play with iPads, these addictive devices that actually wean them away from adult attention. If possible, kids should be at home much longer rather than in daycares, if that's possible. if it's not possible then the daycares need to be places where adult attachment is emphasized rather than pair attachment those are the basics you know those things that feel like they're too

10:38Dr. Lisa Damour: good to be true but you try them and you stick with them and it turns out they're every bit as good as you thought they were okay that's how i feel about every single thing i've ever purchased from quince so i'm hugely reliant on their silk buttoned up shirts i wear them constantly and I also wear a lot of their 100 % Mongolian cashmere sweaters, which in addition to being incredibly soft, start at around$50. They don't just have clothes, they have incredibly lovely items for your home, from hotel quality bedding to bath and kitchen essentials, and even our favorite scented candles have been consistently coming from Quince.

11:17Dr. Lisa Damour: Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the Ask Lisa podcast. It's the best way to support the show. I love this concept that you guys have and you talk about already about the attachment is the psychological umbilical cord. You're right, actually, if it's cut, nothing you say gets through. So Dr. Newfield, if it does get cut, because so many parents feel like it does get cut early, what do we do?

12:00Well, the good news is that it's never too late with the relationship. It doesn't mean it's guaranteed. But we're always looking for home, for a place to belong, for a sense of significance, for a sense of mattering, for love. um this is it's it's knowing that these needs um that we are their answer not that we have answers it's very hard to have answers anymore at all but that doesn't mean we aren't the answer and to step up to be the answer to our 13 year old or 15 year old or 16 year old to when when we give them a sense of significance when we bridge the differences when we can convey that they matter to us, that they're important to us, they're looking for this.

13:00And if it's on our table, more than likely they're going to come back to feed at our table. But if we don't, if we let behavior get in between, if we let differences get in between, I mean, if we let our lack of confidence erode us from that place and we don't step up, leaving where they're best bad, we lose them. We lose them automatically. So it's a matter more not of knowing what to do. It's very hard to know what to do anymore. And that's not really absolutely essential. It's stepping up to the plate and say, you're still my son. You're still my daughter. I'm not going to let anything get between.

13:43Bottom line is, you're important to me. You matter to me. You're significant to me. I think it's important to say that once kids become peer-oriented, adults, parents, are going to experience a lot of rejection, a lot of resistance on the part of the teenagers. And that's where there's a tendency to give up or to get frustrated and get authoritarian. It's a long project. Once kids have become peer-oriented, it's very difficult to bring them back under our care. But as Gordon says, we're still their best bet. And we can give them what peers can't, which is unconditional loving acceptance.

14:22Dr. Lisa Damour: Then along those lines, Dr. Mate, along those lines, how do we shift the focus away from fixing behavior or trying to get kids to be less rejecting towards really rebuilding the relationships? What does that look like in the kitchen? Well, first of all, it looks like getting something. which is that behaviors are symptoms. They're not the fundamental problems. They're manifestations of something. And usually they're manifestations of relational issues. And so there's no such thing as, you know, for example, Gordon and I have both had this experience of somebody comes to us and says, our kid was really good till they were nine years old and they became really bad.

15:01And we say to them, we have bad news and we have good news. the bad news is your kid was never good in the first place and the good news is that they're not bad now what they were is they were oriented to you and attached to you they were following your guidance now they've become detached now they're following their previous guidance so it's not the behavior that we have to address but the relationship, we have to get them back into relationship and all the oppositionality like there's all this nonsense diagnosis of oppositional defiant disorder it doesn't even exist. Oppositionality by definition happens in a relationship.

15:41Why are we diagnosing a kid? Why don't we look at the relationship in which the child or manifests opposition? We're the ones who've got the power to change that relationship. Look, I learned a lot from Gordon. This book is his thesis and his work and at a certain point with my teenage daughter, who's not completing her PhD degree in psychology in New York, but with my teenage daughter, I said, we're going to have dinner once a week, no matter what. And at least half the time, we fought like cats and dogs. But next week, we're going to have dinner again. We have to make ourselves available no matter what and not respond to the behaviors, which are just symptomatic.

16:29They're not primary.

16:33Dr. Lisa Damour: That's beautiful. There's another way the kitchen is involved, Lisa, since you brought up the kitchen. I got your cab recessed. As a mother, I have a 21 and 14-year-old. Everything goes down in the kitchen. Yes, it does. But it also goes down into that food is a fundamental way of caring. Not just food, but feeding. and it can start there in being able to remember again what your child loves, what they like, what is important to them. Make that. Demonstrate. Find a way of actually demonstrating that you care instead of reacting. Warm the food up with love, you know, or prepare it together and certainly eat it together.

17:21Because it really does begin there that that mealtime should be a time of collecting the eyes, the smiles, the nods. A time that you do the most fundamental thing of all, of establish this connection around caring, about giving and receiving, receiving and giving.

17:41Dr. Lisa Damour: I love that. And not in front of the TV set either. No. But I always am saying to families, you need to meet them more than halfway. You know, that this is our job. This is where we find ourselves. So, Dr. Newfield, one of the chapters I really enjoyed especially was around disciplining kids. And you talk about good attachment as a key disciplinary strategy. Can you walk us through that? Well, it is in every which way. We feel like being good for those that we're attached to. So the bottom line is when the attachment is there, we'll feel a lot more like being good. And that's 80, 90 % of the battle.

18:19The other thing is very directly, even though as couples we may be very attached to each other, you have to engage those attachment instincts. And so you start with, you know, we have better manners with our friends, attachment manners. we get their eyes we get smiles we get nods and when they're nodding we say can i ask you for a favor whereas with our kids we say set the table put away your shoes get your room clean and we do this cold we would never work our friends cold uh never and yet we parent cold we we do this with parents even more so you know first of all yes focus make sure that you do your relational work so that they experience the invitation to exist in your presence, that that really gets through.

19:08Secondly, make sure you do that before you say pass the salt. You know, get the eyes, get the smiles, get the twinkle back in your eye. You know, give them a sense that, you know, this isn't only about getting you to do stuff. This is in a context of a loving relationship. Oh my God, I've screwed up so badly. this is so bad they i they they're finally paying attention to me i'm like hey did you take out the trash did you because it's the end of my day and i need all these things done and i don't have time for attachment parenting because i need to get stuff done and you're telling me i've just ruined my relationship no we all screw up actually you have much less you spend much that time if you practice the ration that's right and as gordon says it's not a question of a whole lot of effort It's a question of a smile.

19:58It's a question of an attitude. It's a question of softness of tone. It's a question of welcoming. Gordon says, I love his phrase of his, he says, collect them before you direct them. I love that. I love that. And collecting doesn't take a long time. And that's the first one. Second point is to discipline. In this continent, we confuse discipline with punishment. Like, I'm going to discipline you. But discipline has nothing to do with punishment necessarily. What is a disciple? It's a follower. Somebody who follows you. Now, Jesus, to name one example, had disciples, not because he threatened them and punished them, but because they loved him and trusted him.

20:38True. You know? And so discipline is really a way of being aligned with certain principles. And if the relationship works, your kids will be your disciples. That doesn't mean they'll agree with you and everything, but there won't be this malignant, toxic resistance. So when you talk about the parent-oriented model, how does that compare to what people talk about helicopter parenting? Can I address that one? Go for it.

21:12Dr. Lisa Damour: Lay it on us. We're both one of you. We want you to answer this. Helicopter parenting has nothing to do with the needs of the child. It has to do with the anxiety of the parent. they need to hover over the kid to make sure the kid has a life trajectory that the parent envisions for them that has nothing to do with the child's needs and personality and and predilections so it's it's it's about driving them here driving them there this practice that practice yoga soccer uh dance class whatever and it's not relational it's the parent by definition the helicopter is above the ground. You're not with the child, you're above them, and you're trying to control them to assuage your anxieties.

21:58So it's a very harmful kind of parenting, actually. Gordon, do you have anything else to add to that? Well, yes, but coming alongside, to get to a child's side, for the child to feel them at their side, is a fundamental human relationship kind of thing. That is about attachment to get to their side. To communicate to them that they cannot handle things is crippling. When the person that we look to for cues about, can I do this? Can I handle this? Am I strong? Am I going to be overwhelmed? Suggests that I can't. It's devastating. So our responsibility is get to their side. But, oh, my goodness, when you do this, you know, you want to convey that you've got this, honey.

22:53I'm just here at your side. You can do this. So, yeah, smothering has never been good in the sense, as Gabbert says, it's more about the needs of the parent when that's happening. If it's about the child, we can find our place and be their support cast.

23:09Dr. Lisa Damour: I love it. I also just, I love the warmth, the just top to bottom warmth that you are making the case for. I think sometimes the messages that people are getting in the culture, give them the impression you're supposed to tell teenagers what to do, get them under control, make them act the way they're supposed to act. If they're rude, you got to bring them in line. And I agree with you completely. My training is very much the same training you have around the fundamental power of a good working relationship to make everything else happen and the cost of not having a relationship that nothing good can happen in that context okay so now let us bring you yeah you captured you captured that word is so important warmth right it's so hard to define and and yet that warmth is there carl jung said that warmth is the vital element for the growing plant and the growing child.

24:05And if the child does not feel our warmth, is not safe, does not see their own dignity in our eyes, does not feel that invitation, they're going to be dreadfully wounded. Why wouldn't they go to their peers? Because they think they're going to be better off. Unfortunately, they're not, but they think they'll be better off.

24:28Dr. Lisa Damour: Well, and I think the dynamic that so often unfolds is, you know, teenagers do seek independence and then you know this like it feels personal to the adult and then it's hard to feel warm and i will say they don't seek independence if dependence hasn't been aversive when when we use what children care about against them we are engaging in a most cynical kind of parenting so you be careful what you get attached to because it gives me power over you and we've been confusing that with discipline, teaching a lesson, using what they care about against them. Give me an example of using what they care about against them, just so that I know exactly what you mean.

25:08We call it consequences. I'm going to look around for what it is that you're attached to and use that against you. And then we're surprised that they don't care anymore.

25:16Dr. Lisa Damour: Like I'm taking away your phone. Yes. First of all, that's not even a starter. Why would somebody that's responsible for you ever use what you care about against you? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But Lisa, I ran myself out of my point. The first point that I was going to respond to and got derailed here. I'm sorry. It's wonderful. No, it's wonderful. Dr. Matej. Let me say something here then. Yes. So, human beings need to individuate. They need to grow up. and there's always been rituals in every culture to celebrate the growing up and responsibly taking and independence of the child.

26:01But that didn't mean rejecting the adults. In fact, the children were initiated into adulthood, into independence through the community and through the adults. And in the context of that. In that context. So that independence doesn't mean pushing away in a hostile way. at all. And the other thing about the warmth that you said, Lisa, that warmth is our brains. If you look at the neuroscience of it, our brains, not just our brains, but the brains of mammals and even birds are wired for caring their circuitry with prolactin and oxytocin and endorphins dedicated to caring for the young. And so that warmth with a new baby is almost inevitable for almost anybody who sees a warm baby, sorry, a warm baby, a new baby, they'll have a sense of warmth.

26:55But then what happens is that our own warmth gets shut down as our kids start pushing away from us. And instead of triggering our warmth, they trigger our coldness. And then we think there's something wrong with them. We haven't realized that actually we've lost a relationship. And as Gordon points out. We are born with instincts, but those instincts have to be evoked by the environment. And each other is pushing away from us in this peer-oriented culture, and the impact of the social media and everything else. It doesn't evoke our want. It evokes our despair and even our own resistance.

27:37Dr. Lisa Damour: I'm glad you brought up social media, because one of the things we wanted to think with you about is the pros and cons of it. Where does digital technology, can it fit into the parent-child relationship? How should we think about it? Well, social media usually isn't used to connect with one's grandparents. That's true. It's just a means of connection. It's who you're connecting to. That's the important thing. If social media, if you use digital connection to be able to preserve the family, to preserve the connections that one needs, yes. But if it competes with those, if it competes with those, then there's a problem.

28:19And it's competitive. And again, the question back to can't kids have friends? Of course they can. So can your spouse. But if those friends compete with the relationship with you, that's a different story.

28:34Dr. Lisa Damour: That's a beautiful way to put it. So it's not about friends. It's about affairs, about attachment affairs. And when others matter more, in fact, this is the same inside the family. When siblings matter more to each other than mattering to their parents, we've got problems. We've got huge problems. We can't manage them. We can't do anything with them. They don't feel our care. So it's not only about friends. It's about siblings. It's about things. It's about, it could be a pet. The fact is, is parents need to matter most, hence the subtitle of the book, why they need to matter. Think again in terms of a couple.

29:18The issue is obviously togetherness, otherwise it wouldn't be family. The issue is also separateness. You don't want to lose your separateness of being. But what is the real issue? togetherness without loss of separateness and separateness without loss of togetherness. That is the challenge with the adolescent. Togetherness without loss of separateness and separateness without loss of togetherness. And there's two invitations we can give to a child. The invitation to exist in our presence and not let anything come in between, and the invitation for the fruit of that to become their own person.

29:59Those invitations should coexist, not one be at the cost of the other. They're both invitations and they're both the most important invitations we can give to our loved ones.

30:13Dr. Lisa Damour: You know those things that feel like they're too good to be true, but you try them and you stick with them and it turns out they're every bit as good as you thought they were? Okay, that's how I feel about every single thing I've ever purchased from Quince. So I'm hugely reliant on their silk buttoned up shirts. I wear them constantly. And I also wear a lot of their 100 % Mongolian cashmere sweaters, which in addition to being incredibly soft, start at around$50. They don't just have clothes. They have incredibly lovely items for your home, from hotel quality bedding to bath and kitchen essentials.

30:48Dr. Lisa Damour: And even our favorite scented candles have been consistently coming from Quince. Find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was the Ask Lisa podcast. It's the best way to support the show. if you're listening and you're a parent and you feel like i have lost the separation the umbilical cord's been cut what's your advice to regaining that connection where do we start we start with uh you know getting our mojo back uh with saying i i don't have to know what to do i just have to do it uh i have to get across to my child that i care about them now how am i going to do that?

31:47How am I going to do that? One problem is that a lot of parents carry their own traumas. True. The sense of abandonment and rejection that goes back to their own childhoods. And unresolved, those traumas can show up in your relationship with your child. So when your child is pushing away from you, as Gordon was talking about not making about yourself, but traumatized parents who don't realize it can make it about themselves and actually believe they're being rejected, they're being abandoned by their children, which can bring up a lot of pain, a lot of resentment, and a lot of resistance. So here's where parents really have to take responsibility for their own emotions and not make their child responsible at any age.

32:31Not make the child responsible for what the parent feels and not let those traumatic imprints cause you to desist from that commitment to the child that Gordon is talking about.

32:46Dr. Lisa Damour: We have one more question for you. I was reading your book on a plane and I was actually moved to tears in my seat when I came to this line. And Gordon, you sort of gestured at this line. I'm going to read it as it is in the book. The ultimate gift is to make a child feel invited to exist in our presence exactly as he is. Could each of you give us your take on what that looks like? What is a concrete example of how we make that happen in our homes? Well, it's communicated most beautifully when there's something that's come in between, when there's differences, when there's violated values, when there's disappointments, and so on.

33:33It's, in a sense, the story of the parable of the prodigal son, if you remember it, is that when the son has violated all the values of the father, it's in that context that the father says, I love you. None of that is going to come in between. And reaches out to close the gap. And it's those moments that really get through. I remember once with my, I was really frustrated with my youngest son. He was six. and when I realized my voice which oh my my goodness my voice can hit he told me once daddy stopped hitting me and I said I don't hit you and he said you just hit me right again with your words and I can hit hard with my words and in this case I you know I got back to my senses and I said that I'm sorry this frustration was not about you but you got hit by my frustration and his response was, it's okay, Daddy, I can remember now that you love me even when you're mad at me.

34:36But there has to be some indications that you've been able to communicate that and bridge that. And so part of the responsibility for a parent is to look what needs to be bridged retroactively, proactively, that what needs, you know, that we can say in a place, yes, I understand that. I get really frustrated.

34:59That happens. And yes, that's not what I value. But the bottom line is you're my son. You're my daughter. I love you. I care about you. I still convey it, look forward to having dinner with you tonight, that the relationship has survived. Dr.

35:24Dr. Lisa Damour: Matej, anything to add to that? Dr. No, I think that said beautifully, but there's one issue I'd like to return to for a moment, which is that of digital media. So, yes, it can be used to cement or maintain family relationships at a distance. From that point of view, it's a miracle. I heard of one kid who looks at the computer and says, Grandpa, because it was always on my toddler. But at the same time, that's the use of digital media limited, controlled by, and in the presence of adults. Now, a lot of kids, it breaks my heart when I see this, kids with iPads in restaurants or in the street. And you have small kids, two or three years old.

36:15Now, the studies have shown that early exposure, prolonged exposure to digital media actually misshapes the brain. Important brain circuits on brain scans don't develop. And those devices are not just addictive, they're designed to be addictive. And they can form attachments that can actually threaten the relationship with the adults. and to try and peel a kid who's addicted to off their cell phone or off their computer is like trying to separate a drug addict from their drugs you're going to get hatred resistance violence and and resentment and disobedience so i can't over emphasize the importance of adults for a long time long time many years not allowing independent use of social media limiting it only in the presence of adults and only for the purposes that support attachments later and it's like gordon points out you know um nobody minds people having a drink but we don't give it to two-year-olds and we give it to them and they're ready for it and sex itself is a part of human life but we don't encourage four-year-olds to engage in it until they're ready for it and it's the same with digital media so that can't be overemphasized because once kids get hooked on it, it's a devil's job trying to get them to let go.

37:41And it's a major new challenge to parenting. And furthermore, of course, it provides another platform for peer connections. Yes. Even when they're not in jealous physical presence, they can be through the digital media. So parents need to get on top of that before it gets out of hand. And once it gets out of hand, And, oh boy, it's not impossible, but you've got to work on a relationship a lot before then you have the influence to get them to limited digital media. But you can't control where you don't have the power. And the power doesn't come from authority. It comes from attachment. And so you can't, you know, you can't, once they're addicted, just like any addiction, you need to have a relational context with which to be able to have the influence.

38:37And so you can't limit to have the influence. You have to be able to restore the relationship to make some headway with the addiction. Fantastic. Fantastic. I just, there's so much here to unpack that I think I see why this is a parenting classic. And I've learned so many things from this book and from our conversation today. I want to thank you both for joining us, Dr. Gordon Newfield and Dr. Gabor Matei. The book is called Hold On To Your Kids, Why Parents Need To Matter More Than Peers. Wow, Lisa, that was just incredible. I know.

39:15Dr. Lisa Damour: Such a rich conversation and so poetic also in its way. What do you have for us for Parenting to Go? Well, I feel like my Parenting to Go seems awfully small and superficial relative to that conversation. But one thing I was thinking about in that conversation is that, you know, I don't usually give just like very generic advice about raising teenagers. I'm always onto something specific. But when people ask for it, I do say, I think one of the hardest and most important things in all of parenting a teenager is not holding a grudge. There will be times when you feel hurt. There will be times when you feel stepped on.

39:47Dr. Lisa Damour: And you could really nurse that for a very long time. And it will get in the way of all good things that you want to have happen with your kid. Usually they have moved on very quickly. Or if you move on quickly, they will move on with you. And so the goal, and I will truly say as a mother of teenagers, and also one of the hardest things in raising teenagers, is to not hold grudges. just out of curiosity if if i know a parent who always takes away the cell phone as a disciplinary action what's another another thing asking for a friend asking for a friend rina asking for a friend well maybe we'll take a page out of dr mate's in newfield's book and maybe instead you take them out for a treat and talk about what went wrong all right new parenting tactics i'm telling you this one blew my mind this one really did i want to thank you guys for joining us.

40:39And next week, we're going to talk about the summer. How do you build independence for your kids during the summer and why it's such a great time? I'll see you next week. I'll see you next week. Thanks for joining us. Be sure to subscribe to the Ask Lisa podcast so you get the episodes just as soon as they drop. And send us your questions to asklisa at drlisademore.com. And now a word from our lawyers. The advice provided on this podcast does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment, therapy, or other types of professional advice or intervention. If you have concerns about your child's well-being, consult a physician or mental health professional.

41:20If you're looking for additional resources, check out Lisa's website at drlisademore.com.